Discrimination/Racism

[AliBabaIncorporated]

edit: this thread was split from another thread in Hello Hapas

- SunWuKung




No offense, but the main effect of Asian mixing in Hawaii seems to have been that any time race comes up, all Hawaii Asians in the mainland like to cluck their tongues, berate Americans for their racism, and loudly proclaim, "In Hawaii, we don't think about race like this!" While in the mean time their compatriots back in the islands are yelling "haole go home." If the US turns into that, I'm leaving. Hell, sometimes California is already turning even worse, with AAs claiming they're so anti-racist and tolerant and everything is all whitey media's fault, then turning around to go jump a hapa or call a girl a slut for dating a black guy.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jun 24 2003, 03:28 PM
No offense, but the main effect of Asian mixing in Hawaii seems to have been that any time race comes up, all Hawaii Asians in the mainland like to cluck their tongues, berate Americans for their racism, and loudly proclaim, "In Hawaii, we don't think about race like this!" While in the mean time their compatriots back in the islands are yelling "haole go home." If the US turns into that, I'm leaving. Hell, sometimes California is already turning even worse, with AAs claiming they're so anti-racist and tolerant and everything is all whitey media's fault, then turning around to go jump a hapa or call a girl a slut for dating a black guy.

I'm not too versed on Hawaiian history too much, but it is my understanding that most Asians in Hawaii are not of Hawaiian ethnic origin. Is it true that Asian Americans in Hawaii actually tell white people "haole go home"? How hypocritical. They themselves are "newcomers" to Hawaii, and not part of the indegenous population. They are as detrimental to the loss of hawaiian culture as White Americans are.

[myself808]

I'm not too versed on Hawaiian history too much, but it is my understanding that most Asians in Hawaii are not of Hawaiian ethnic origin. Is it true that Asian Americans in Hawaii actually tell white people "haole go home"? How hypocritical. They themselves are "newcomers" to Hawaii, and not part of the indegenous population. They are as detrimental to the loss of hawaiian culture as White Americans are

Actually, the "haole go home" thing is more of a native Hawaiian screed than local asain thing. However, being the majority, the Asain population will act like, well, the majority and start discriminating against the minority, namely white poeple. The tounge clucking is the same as what some white people do, it's easy for the majority to say Oppression? discrimination? where? I don't see that where I'm standing, its more like a projection of their views than objective observance. I do believe that on the whole Hawaii is a bit more tolerant of differing races than most other places in the US, but its not one big happy melting pot either. ( I usually get in trouble with these type of generalizations but oh well).

It is true that most Asains are not of Hawaiian ancestry, the reverse is not. The vast majority of native Hawaiians are mixed, many will cite five or more ethnicities, and a native Hawaiian with 100% blood quantum is actually rare.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by myself808@Jun 25 2003, 10:11 PM
Actually, the "haole go home" thing is more of a native Hawaiian screed than local asain thing. However, being the majority, the Asain population will act like, well, the majority and start discriminating against the minority, namely white poeple. The tounge clucking is the same as what some white people do, it's easy for the majority to say Oppression? discrimination? where?

White people hardly believe their own society to be free of oppression and discrimination. Plenty of white people support affirmative action and an 89% white supreme court just cemented it into place. In contrast, I rarely meet a Hawaii Asian who thinks he is anything but the paragon of diversity and tolerance to which all us racist mainlanders, Asian and white alike, should look up.

[myself808]

Yes white people know discrimination exists, yet many have either not had any direct experience with it, or, more likely have never been on the recieving end of it. One of the typical reactions when a white person comes here and is discriminated against is that they are genuinely shocked, and amazed that "this kind of thing happens here" and "I've never experienced anything like this back home"
I have never met, nor heard of, anyone who has said I am "the paragon of diversity and tolerance to which all [you] racist mainlanders, Asian and white alike, should look up." and since I personally cannot read other peoples minds I have no way of knowing if they actually think this. Maybe those who you have met are exaggerating, maybe they are being a bit hypocritical, maybe they are like those people from that large east coast city who act as if their city is the be all and end all of civilization. Or maybe they are paragons. Or maybe they had the termity to dare suggest that they just might be more racially tolerant. Or maybe you were exaggerating a bit ;) to make a point. I still would argue that in general,(which is not to say all or every, but for the most part), people in Hawaii are more tolerant because no one ethnic group has an overwhelming majority. (in my earlier post I stated Asains were the majority ethnic group, turns out I was wrong, Asains are the largest but not over 50%). Our State Governors have been White, Japanese, Native Hawaiian, Filipino, and currently a Jewish Woman (part Jewish part white to be accurate). Again, Hawaii is far, from being the big happy melting pot where everybody gets along all the time, discrimination does exist, but IMO it is a bit more tolerant due to diversity.

2000 Census Bureau stats:
------------------ US---HI---CA

White persons: 75.1 24.3 59.5
Asian persons : 3.6 41.6 10.9
Persons reporting
2 or more races: 2.4 21.4 4.7

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by myself808@Jun 27 2003, 10:53 AM
Again, Hawaii is far, from being the big happy melting pot where everybody gets along all the time, discrimination does exist, but IMO it is a bit more tolerant due to diversity.

If diversity were all it took to have tolerance then my area, DC, would be the most tolerant in the world, since it is afterall probably the most diverse metropolitan area in the country.

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jun 29 2003, 07:33 PM

If diversity were all it took to have tolerance then my area, DC, would be the most tolerant in the world, since it is afterall probably the most diverse metropolitan area in the country.

Yeah, it depends on how and where the diversity is too. I have the impression Hawaii isn't that hard of a place to live... it is as what most people would call a paradise by on the mainland, so questions of friction toward race are more likely to be downplayed too. You'd think Los Angeles would be great because of its "diversity" too, but the whole city is seperated over and over again in ethnic neighborhoods.

[myself808]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@Jun 29 2003, 11:14 PM

Yeah, it depends on how and where the diversity is too. I have the impression Hawaii isn't that hard of a place to live... it is as what most people would call a paradise by on the mainland, so questions of friction toward race are more likely to be downplayed too. You'd think Los Angeles would be great because of its "diversity" too, but the whole city is seperated over and over again in ethnic neighborhoods.

You know, AzNBuffGrL, I think you have a point there. Admittedly, life is a bit more relaxed here, I guess we're just not as uptight as the rest of y'all, besides how pissed off can you be sitting on the beach, watching the sunset, dressed in a t-shirt and shorts, in December :D

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by myself808@Jul 1 2003, 08:54 AM

You know, AzNBuffGrL, I think you have a point there. Admittedly, life is a bit more relaxed here, I guess we're just not as uptight as the rest of y'all, besides how pissed off can you be sitting on the beach, watching the sunset, dressed in a t-shirt and shorts, in December :D

Well from her description of where she lives, evil whitey is trying to pull her over for nothing every day, trying to keep her out of college, sexually idolizing her, and being so politically incorrect to the point that her life is a living hell. I don't call that relaxed.

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 1 2003, 08:51 PM

Well from her description of where she lives, evil whitey is trying to pull her over for nothing every day, trying to keep her out of college, sexually idolizing her, and being so politically incorrect to the point that her life is a living hell. I don't call that relaxed.

Yeah, I should probably move to Hawaii and get that stick of reality out of my ass. :dance:

[BeTheReds]

First you need to take off the "evil whitey is out to get me" blindfold and realize that the stick is only a stick of percieved reality and it will vanish once you stop generalizing an entire race of people based on the actions of the people of that race you come in contact with, which isn't much I assume since you only come in contact with whitey when you need to..., cops, school administrators random racists who stick out in your mind for being randomly racist at you...etc...

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 2 2003, 12:27 AM
First you need to take off the "evil whitey is out to get me" blindfold and realize that the stick is only a stick of percieved reality and it will vanish once you stop generalizing an entire race of people based on the actions of the people of that race you come in contact with, which isn't much I assume since you only come in contact with whitey when you need to..., cops, school administrators random racists who stick out in your mind for being randomly racist at you...etc...

I've never once said that "evil whitey" is out to get me, although I've had a lot bad experiences with white people, it's not like I hate all of them becuase I've had bad experiences with Mexicans and Blacks too and especially other Asians because no matter what color, people are capable of great human cruelty beyond simple issues of race, and since I've been around Asians most of my life, there you go.

But most institutional racism stems from mainstream American society, which usually ends up equating white people. But despite that I believe it is the egotiscal side of American psyche that keeps saying it's "Number one!" and believes it's right and superior and a savior that causes a lot of discrimination rather than the color white itself.

Sure I might have not had the best experiences with a whole lot of white people, but it's not like I've not met any nice white people who don't have that high horse attitude a lot of Americans end up programmed with, but unfortunately a lot of people do have that attitude, and that attitude perpuates and causes problems in the world and thinks it's the world's savior. That attitude is what I have problem with, not with all white people.

If you were white and you asked me directions on the street today, I'd be nice to you as I'd be to another Chinese. But you start saying how exotic I look or start saying America is doing everything right in the world,I'll cringe and say whatever dude and give you directions rudely. You start saying that China is backwards or watn to take me out to get to know my culture, I might walk away. If you where Chinese and you started insulting me for whatever reason saying rudely that I'm a jokl sing or insult me, you'd get my wrath too. But it's all behavior rather than color.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@Jul 2 2003, 03:52 AM
But most institutional racism stems from mainstream American society, which usually ends up equating white people. But despite that I believe it is the egotiscal side of American psyche that keeps saying it's "Number one!" and believes it's right and superior and a savior that causes a lot of discrimination rather than the color white itself.

Except for the fact that mainstream American society has been a lot nicer to its minorities than the mainstreams of other societies ever had been.

Try coming to Malaysia sometime. Just like the US, we're a society of immigrants. You've said before that being in the majority makes white people racist, but, that maybe Asians would be just as racist if they were in the majority.

In fact, they're even more fucking racist than anything you've ever had to encounter in your sheltered life.

If the US government tries to give any money to a church, even as part of a non-profit grant, people come out of the woodworks to complain, many of them Christian. Putting the ten commandments anywhere on school property will get you sued. In Malaysia, the majority ethnicity institutionalized their religion as the official state religion, conducts religion classes in public schools (which non-Muslims can opt out of only to take these thinly disguised proselytizing "Moral Education" classes) and handed various judicial and law enforcement powers over to private religious bodies. Religious police on occasion enforce Islamic "proximity" laws (prohibiting unmarried Muslim men and women from being alone together) against non-Muslims, even breaking into hotel rooms, and receive no official reprimand whatsoever.

In the US, a person arguing against a law on the grounds that the Bible forbids the behavior in question (abortion, etc) is laughed at. In Kelantan (a state in northern Malaysia), the local government requires men and women have to stand at separate check-out lines in the grocery stores, because the Koran states that men and women should be separate.

In the US, white people themselves in a 90% white country voted in the 1965 immigration act which let the ancestors of the majority of today's Asian-American population into the country, and make no serious effort to deport millions of culturally dissimilar Mexican illegals. In Malaysia, as soon as the ethnic Malays won independence and got control of their immigration policy back from the British, the first thing they did was institute a "good character" requirement for immigrants, which they used to exclude Chinese and Indians, even for purposes of family reunification, while explicitly granting visa-free entry to Muslims and then quietly declining to prosecute them for illegal overstay.

In the USA, white people instituted affirmative action for blacks and Hispanics, who were less well off than white people. People are still allowed to demand more special concessions and privileges for minorities; those who oppose them are derided as racist. In Malaysia, the Malays legally enshrined affirmative action for themselves and made it illegal to question it, while in the mean time virtually excluding Indians, who were even worse off than them.

The USA has two college "entrance exams" both at about the same difficulty: the ACT and the SAT. Anyone can take either one. Malaysia also has two college entrance exams: Sijil Tinggi Persekolahan Malaysia (Malaysia Higher Educational Certificate), which is acknowledged to be even harder than the British A-levels, and which anyone can take. They also have a dumbed down version called Matrikulasi, which only Malays can take, but which receives equal weight as the STPM.

The US government refuses funding to high schools which discriminate against minority students. Even a private test prep school which refused minority students would find itself harassed by the EEOC and could be sued. The Malaysian government has set up college preparatory schools funded by taxpayer dollars which only Malays can attend; Chinese and Indians are excluded.

The San Francisco Bay Area has dual-immersion bilingual programs in public schools designed not only for immigrants to learn English, but for local minority students to maintain their heritage languages. Anyone who wants to can start a private school teaching Chinese. The Malaysian government refuses to give one cent to Chinese schools or Tamil schools, recognized their graduation certificates as legal qualification to enter public universities only under intense pressure, and drags its feet on approving building permits for new Chinese private schools.

A few thousand Chinese railroad workers and Japanese immigrants notwithstanding, America has always been an overwhelmingly white nation, and has only had a few decades to accomodate itself to the huge influx of culturally and racially distinct immigrants which left the country less than 7/10 white and California less than half. Yet compared to other countries, as the above examples show, white people are doing what they can to make life easier for the newcomers to their society. And all most Asian-Americans can do is complain that whites are unrepentant racists who cling resolutely to "white privilege." And yet, you are free to complain all you want, as long as you don't destroy property or disrupt public order.

Malaysia? It's been over a quarter non-Malay ever since the late 1800s, but after almost a century and a quarter, the Malay in the street shows no sign of giving an inch on his privileges in society. And they harass and arrest independent journalists who dare question his position.

[BeTheReds]

Of course you realise, Eric, that any attempt to show racism in societies in Asia no matter how relevant to the argument will be countered with. "What does racism in Asia have anything to do with racism in the USA?" Then you will hear "If you don't like it, then you don't have to go there.. I was BORN in America, I have no choice!" Yet if anyone ever says once.. "If you don't like racism in America why don't you go back to Asia, where you won't be discriminated against so much?" is immediately declared a racist, no matter what the intentions of the question were.

Remember, we tried to use it by talking about all the Japanese Koreans and Chinese is white and black face all over Asia on TV and our arguments were declared irrelavant because that's foreign media which Americans don't watch.

However, your post was informative and interesting.

[AngryABCGirl]

So I should just accept the bad parts of mainstream America just because it isn't as bad as another country's? That makes as about much sense as people who praise the system even when it doesn't work sometimes and needs reforms "because it's the best thing out there." Why not demand better? Hasn't demanding better what got American society to improve itself from what it was in the 50s to what it is today? Hasn't every invention man every molded been based on the question, how can so-and-so be better?

What did this have to do with the "evil whitey" thing anyway?

Either way, it's a disrespectful thing to say if someone yelled it to me on the street because it's like I don't deserve to just be there no matter what color the person is. As for not liking racism and going back to Asia, doesn't seem like a horrible plan to me. Racism thank god isn't bad enough in my life to make me want to flee the country though, but that combined with other factors like family and probably future job opportunies in China, would make me say why not Asia in the future.