The British Empire

[CBC guy]

In the Abe Shinzo thread I noticed that quite a few posters were pouncing on Martino due to the fact that he happens to be British and many Asians (and Africans, middle easterners, etc) have an ax to grind with the UK as well. For us Chinese, this ax isn't as big as the ax seemingly always reserved for Japan (DON'T get into that topic here... its been done many many times in this forum and I don't want to turn this into a Japan-bashing thread. Yes I am Chinese and yes I love China but this IS NOT THE THREAD TO BASH JAPAN. Thank you.)

I have nothing against the British people or culture (or else I wouldn;t be typing in ENGLISH). I like fish and chips from time to time and I enjoy watching British soccer. I enjoy the dry British sense of humour and the way they can keep cheerful even in tough circumstances.

HOWEVER, the fact that their once "glorious empire" has led to many of the world's problems to this day is a point of contention. Africa is fragmented due partially to British rule. The Middle East is a hodge-podge of nations at each other's throats whose only unifying points are perhaps Islam (both moderate and extreme) and the destruction of Israel (of course not ALL Middle Easterners are like that but that's the common perception). In Asia, British colonialism led to the fracturing of India and Pakistan (creating two implacable enemies). In East Asia, British rule has proved somewhat more beneficial, as witness the status of Hong Kong and Singapore. (MUCH better fate than other British colonies)

Another contested fixture is the fact that the UK is seen as an American lapdog. I don't really believe this myself, but the two countries do share some common roots and language so that in itself is not surprising. Also the US, after all, DID help save the UK in its hour of dire need in WWII so there is a debt to the US there. I don't think they are completely in lock step with each other though, as witness the dislike for Bush by the British public.

Finally, I will say this. British imperialism has led to a lot of evil in the world as native cultures were subordinated at British commercial interests in a ruthless manner. However as far as colonizers go the British liked to co-opt their subjects rather than crush them. (Like so many other colonizers) The British used a lot of force to achieve their objectives, but to their credit they did establish hospitals and educated the people. Over time, British colonialism grew (after WWII) into a more mild administration which gave the colonials a lot of leeway. (I was thinking of Hong Kong and Malaya for these examples)

What do you guys think?

[Golden Monkey]

Originally Posted by CBC guy

In Asia, British colonialism led to the fracturing of India and Pakistan (creating two implacable enemies).

Wrong. Islamic versus Hindu civilization and conflict long predates the British empire.

I personal don't like martino due to his personality and his politics. Not because he's british.

Although it could be argued that martino's arrogance and moralistic pc attitudes are reminicent of british colonial arrogance.

It's bad enough foreigners forcibly enter your nation, but to bring a personal arrogance and cultural bias is what can make for a revolt of the natives.

The Chinese in the capitalist world system will make deals without telling people how to live, what not to say, etc. As long as it is outside China.

The Chinese want to do business, not convert minds or "save souls".

[Woody]

Originally; I was going to give an even bigger and more insightful and rounded post. Alas, time is forever against us, so this is my best efforts on this topic for now! It is rather rambling and stubbed, but none-the-less; heart felt...

Originally Posted by CBC guy

In the Abe Shinzo thread I noticed that quite a few posters were pouncing on Martino due to the fact that he happens to be British and many Asians (and Africans, middle easterners, etc) have an ax to grind with the UK as well. For us Chinese, this ax isn't as big as the ax seemingly always reserved for Japan (DON'T get into that topic here... its been done many many times in this forum and I don't want to turn this into a Japan-bashing thread. Yes I am Chinese and yes I love China but this IS NOT THE THREAD TO BASH JAPAN. Thank you.)

I would count myself as "British" as well, to the extent that I have long ago been naturalised as a UK citizen and hold a British Passport! However, no doubt, all the Chinese/Japanese, East Asian, Americans etc. out there have realised.
[What is written on paper does not show on your skin and face!]

Even if u r born in that country....

(For example: How many American-Born-Chinese still get asked patronisingly whether or not they can speak English by a casually mocking white American, especially if they have a mind to be bigoted!)

Since, you are a 'history major' and I had made a "gaff" on Nelson instead of Drake. And no doubt I have been severely chastised for it in many quarters. (Brownie point having been earned!) I feel I have an obligation to reward you with an insight into the 'Yellows' and particularly the substantial Chinese community in the UK.
(I love run on sentences...)
And; in particular the main ‘Cantonese’ community in the UK....


Let’s start by saying that:

Every major city in the UK, London (Gerrard St.), Birmingham, Manchester has it's own Chinatown. Most UK towns (large or small) have a Chinese Takeaway/ Restaurant or two on its high street....

Japanese people; (generally the business and finance community) being largely economically much better off, tend to congregate in the home counties and London only...(since they r so rich!)

Originally Posted by CBC guy

I have nothing against the British people or culture (or else I wouldn;t be typing in ENGLISH). I like fish and chips from time to time and I enjoy watching British soccer. I enjoy the dry British sense of humour and the way they can keep cheerful even in tough circumstances.

Well, I too can converse in Chinese (Cantonese). In text, I’d prefer un-simplified Han. Simply because, it is more natural for me! E.g. (Big5). I find it is to be more exclusive and private! I.e.(Fairly Troll resistant! And more Chinese!)

Fish and Chips is alright if cooked properly, but after the 50th time you have tried it; it gets a bit.... well.....dull.....(You may also like to try jellied eels (served cold), pie and mash with mushy peas, whelks and winkles, that is if u r a truly full-blooded, die-hard East-End, cockney!)

But to tell you the absolute truth, these 'poor-man' dishes r more-or-less dying out nowadays! And the much-vaunted national dish in the UK is now 'Curry'! This 'change' I suspect has more to do with appeasement and harmony with the increasingly vocal ethnic lobbyists, then actual fact!

British 'Football', (We/They never call it, 'Soccer'.) is actually very tribal, (watch the film 'Hooligan' or 'Green Street' as it is called in the UK!), very, very few East Asians attend these matches, and some clubs, used to be openly racists! Usually to black players (they used to throw bananas and even 'sharpened' 50 pence coins!)
The 'stiff-upper-lip' and 'jolly-hockey-sticks' attitude and image, etc. is an over-played and over-vaunted trait, perpetuated by the media. Believe me the Brits. are not as infallible as they like to make out. They are just good at "extenuating their successes" and "hiding their failures", which are actually very many! (E.g. Concorde, Octeca, Comet, Nimrod, Blue-streak, Westland, Titanic, HMS. Prince of Wales [unsinkable ship, sank in 30mins], HMS Sheffield [Aluminium Warships!], Sinclair-C5, HOTOL.)

(Please, do not believe their hype or propaganda!)

I do not agree with you that "us Chinese", (and I am one), donot have as big-er axe to grind with the British as with any other imperialistic colonialist nation!
(Even though any references to the British Empire is now definitely said in the past tense!)

Here is a current example of British blunder and obsession with secrecy; 50 years hence…

Commander: Buster Crabb RN. (deceased, minus head & hands!)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/h...re/5068860.stm

Originally Posted by CBC guy

HOWEVER, the fact that their once "glorious empire" has led to many of the world's problems to this day is a point of contention. Africa is fragmented due partially to British rule. The Middle East is a hodge-podge of nations at each other's throats whose only unifying points are perhaps Islam (both moderate and extreme) and the destruction of Israel (of course not ALL Middle Easterners are like that but that's the common perception). In Asia, British colonialism led to the fracturing of India and Pakistan (creating two implacable enemies). In East Asia, British rule has proved somewhat more beneficial, as witness the status of Hong Kong and Singapore. (MUCH better fate than other British colonies)

The British Empire was founded on one major factor…(Force of Arms!)
Guns, guns, guns….It’s as simple as that…Their; technological advantage in warfare allowed them to basically subjugate less tech. advanced peoples….(remove that advantage, they can have no claims to being superior in any other field, e.g. literature, philosophy, culture, arts, even medicine!) Remind u of any other nation, currently!

For example; 'conquering' Australia and New Zealand to make the Brit. Empire more bloated was hardly difficult at the time, since both territories were still in the stone-age! However; intimidating and gaining an advantage from China proved far more difficult!

So; to the Mid-East, double standards will always apply, e.g. the Israelis will always curry more favour with the West; even though it is an illegal state!

Originally Posted by CBC guy

Another contested fixture is the fact that the UK is seen as an American lapdog. I don't really believe this myself, but the two countries do share some common roots and language so that in itself is not surprising. Also the US, after all, DID help save the UK in its hour of dire need in WWII so there is a debt to the US there. I don't think they are completely in lock step with each other though, as witness the dislike for Bush by the British public.

Without the US, the UK would be the mouthy and cowardly, 'sidekick' without the big bully in the playground. It had made a lot of enemies in the past and NEEDS, repeat NEEDS, the US as an ally! The Brit. public is pretty well-informed, and in their 'heart-of-hearts' knows their foreign policies (esp. Mid-East) are wrong, but cannot back down now because they have no choice but to perpetuate their reputation as a 'global-player'! However, their size and resources, suggests differently!

Originally Posted by CBC guy

Finally, I will say this. British imperialism has led to a lot of evil in the world as native cultures were subordinated at British commercial interests in a ruthless manner. However as far as colonizers go the British liked to co-opt their subjects rather than crush them. (Like so many other colonizers) The British used a lot of force to achieve their objectives, but to their credit they did establish hospitals and educated the people. Over time, British colonialism grew (after WWII) into a more mild administration which gave the colonials a lot of leeway. (I was thinking of Hong Kong and Malaya for these examples)

Since, many of you are below the age of 30 or 40 and have not experience, (first-hand) direct 'rigid' British rule in Hong Kong before the Brits. gradually rescinded their 'grip' in the 80s and 90s under Thatcher.

Speaking of personal experience….

When I was a child there were 'special' shops (often discretely located in HK island near military barracks) specifically reserved for and catering for 'Whites-only!'.
I.e. 'de facto' English customers only! I remembered they would shoo… away us Chinese kids, and not allow us in! (Even though the shop assistants were Chinese themselves!)

This of course reeks of colonial bigotry and even thinly veiled apartithed. (And; to cap it all they had great air-conditioning in these shops, an expensive luxury at the time!)

In school also, only English 'First-names' were proliferated, such as John, Jane, Peter etc, were encouraged and English (much self promoting "and highly-glossed" applied...) history and Christianity encouraged. Where as 'natives', and I hate that word, since, it implies inferiority in our indiginous, culture, language, history and religions. Even speaking in Cantonese were frowned upon!

This was just the way it was back in the 60s and 70s in an English run school, even though nearly all the kids were Cantonese!

Furthermore; although, the Brits. loved to propagate the notion that the Cantonese were street-smart, resourceful, 'somewhat' cunning and devious. They would rarely acknowledge our 'solid' achievements in science, technology and medicine. E.g. (Traditional or Western) or even our skills and undoubted abilities in areas as diverse as the HK stock market!

Since they once though it would be too resoundingly complex for our tiny minds to understand the stock-exchange! This 'spat' on the stock-exchange was actually dramatised in a HK mini-series!

I.e. their stereotype of us were, we (Cantonese) were quick-witted (but un-trustworthy) and superficially bright but not deep-thinking and incapable of superior abstract thoughts like they (the Brits.) did!
(Believe me the Brits. love to patronize!)

For example; it has taken over 40 years for the West to acknowledge that the Chinese had an outright cure for Malaria i.e. "Artemisinin". While they stubbornly clung on to the notion that "Quinine" was the only effective treatment for this disease!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1660158.stm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/prog...ia_trans.shtml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3681938

Once again, may I reiterate "Don't believe the hype!"....
HK and Singapore's successes are due more to the labours of the masses, than the administrative skills of their former masters!

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I have nothing against Chinese people....I enjoy a good dish of fried rice from time to time and kung fu movies are pretty entertaining.

[Woody]

This is a 'serious' thread Napoleon, I hope u can live up to your 'formidable' assumed name, if not stand down now, or the grown-ups will unleash!

[Napoleon Chynamite]

^ In that case, perhaps you could spend less time addressing the strengths and weaknesses of fish and chips, soccer, and other superficial aspects of British culture that really have no significance to any solid argument fit for this thread~

[Woody]

First, Don't say I didn't warn u! Nappy!

Then; do a word count of the script I have just posted for CBC Guy and not u!

Afterwards; give me a prompt of a single aspect of UK history u want me to expand on and I will gladly make you sorry, u ever asked!

This also goes for Cantonese culture and language!

Challenge accepted and in full effect....

Remember the Emperor's demise, youngman!

[CBC guy]

Well yes I know the success of HK and Singapore was due to the Chinese masses living there, NOT the British themselves. However the British administration (in its later years anyways) in HK and Singapore created an environment which allowed the Chinese there to work hard and get ahead. They ruled Hong Kong better than Mao ruled Mainland China, at least that's my opinion. I'm not justifying British colonialism, (there are many things I don't like about the British culture either, including its constant hypocrsiy and its patronizing attitude towards all non-whites. Now it may be unfair of me to say this in this manner but you know what I mean. ) Of course not every British person fits this stereotype but yeah.

As for soccer yes I know there is a tribal element to it but in recent years the word is that the FA (Football Association) has clamped down hard on racism and violence in recent years and this has led to more ethnic fans going to games. (or "matches" as they say in Britain) There are still cases of violence and racism in some games but the big clubs at least (Manchester United, Arsenal, the "elite") have made their stadiums relatively safe for foreign visitors, if a little "sterile". And not all football fans are hooligans, btw. I know some fans of Man U from HK who went to Old Trafford and said they had a great time there, no violence or anything like that. My final thought about football in Britain is that in a culture which emphasizes formality and protocol so much, this is where the British people go to let off steam.

And Woody, please stop being so short-tempered. Napoleon's post about chinese food was a joke. Don't British people usually have a sense of humour?

"butte yueh choe dai, yaam bui chaa, sic goe bao"

[Martino]

Originally Posted by CBC guy

Finally, I will say this. British imperialism has led to a lot of evil in the world as native cultures were subordinated at British commercial interests in a ruthless manner. However as far as colonizers go the British liked to co-opt their subjects rather than crush them. (Like so many other colonizers) The British used a lot of force to achieve their objectives, but to their credit they did establish hospitals and educated the people. Over time, British colonialism grew (after WWII) into a more mild administration which gave the colonials a lot of leeway. (I was thinking of Hong Kong and Malaya for these examples)

What do you guys think?

The history of the British Empire, like all empires before and after it, is mercantile and based on pure avarice. Fuelled by several centuries of aggressive trade, war and colonisation, the British pretty much shaped a lot of the world we see today, troubles and all.

This particular empire's decline and fall is quite remarkable, not least of which because the Empire is still with us in an evolved form. The process of change began in the 1920s, when the enforced 'member states' of the Empire gained political and diplomatic independence from Britain with 'Dominion' status. Some states broke away entirely shortly after, severing all links with the British, but others remained, creating a Commonwealth.

Witness how many national flags around the world still bear the Union Jack.

Unbelievably, Queen Elizabeth II is still the queen of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica, Barbados, the Bahamas, Grenada, Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Antigua and Barbuda, Belize, and Saint Kitts and Nevis, though obviously without real political power...

It would seem that for a lot of people, some benefit came out of the British Empire, again with an emphasis on trade, but the bottom line is that all empires are intrinsically evil, British included. They might bring along (or leave behind) a lot of benefits - better roads, balanced judicial systems, democracy, whatever, but nothing which the occupied country couldn't attain itself in time.

The wheel of history has turned since then, but sadly we're seeing the same model repeated. The Indonesians may have pulled out of East Timor and elsewhere, leaving behind great new roads and modern hospitals, but at too great a price for the occupied peoples. The Americans, too, now have their empire, powered by Haliburton and the US's business needs, and they are making an even worse mess of things.

Nothing really changes, does it?

[BeTheReds]

I like fish and chips and soccer too. Thanks Britain!

[yoMAMA]

Originally Posted by BeTheReds

I like fish and chips and soccer HOOLIGANS too. Thanks Britain!

ditto!

[DragonKnight]

Originally Posted by CBC guy

And Woody, please stop being so short-tempered. Napoleon's post about chinese food was a joke. Don't British people usually have a sense of humour?

Yeah, but it's usually quite dry...and cold like the weather.

[Martino]

Originally Posted by DragonKnight

Yeah, but it's usually quite dry...and cold like the weather.

Isn't that the Germans?

[CBC guy]

Originally Posted by Martino

Isn't that the Germans?

Ahh.... European footie rivalries pop up again...

[CBC guy]

Originally Posted by kyopojin

Chinese need to stop promote threads or discussions on European imperial glorious centuries and propagating senseless hatred toward Japan and Japanese.

Chinese guys need to stop behaving like " loose cannons " in internet forums,Japanese and Koreans don't ever indiscriminate or down talk themselves before foreigners in cyberspace.

Frankly,I am sick and tire of reading posts written by Chinese out of self-victimization due to low self-esteem epidemic among general Chinese population.

Its all about discussion. I wanted to get what other people (including non-chinese) think about the British empire. Martino answered, he's british, he didn't seem offended by this thread didn't he?

Did you just post this here to spite me because of my posts on Jref.com? I already told you, I'm not posting in their politics section anymore because I don't want YOU getting in on my ass. Its pointless getting mad about these things. Now are you going to follow me around and hound me as a "PRC-ass-kisser" just because I posted a bit on the Chinese viewpoint on ANOTHER forum? Are you going to follow me and hound me there because I am a "evil Chinese racist?" Are you going to do a google search on "CBC Guy" and broadcast loudly for all to hear that "CBC GUY is an EVIL Chinese racist?"

So NO ONE is allowed to post about certain topics JUST BECAUSE you said so? Its a free country, you know that.

BTW If you do a search of my posts here not all of them have to do with "EVIL JAPAN" or "EVIL BRITAIN" or anything like that. So no I'm not an obssessed Chinese "loose Cannon" as you described me.


Sorry for getting off topic guys.