Iraq's anti-gay attitude

[Faithless]

Talk about your big losers in the strive to free the Iraqis. The LGBT community in Iraq appears to be losing out, again, big time.

Not only is there civil war in Iraq, but there seems to be openly uncivil hostility in Iraq toward the Iraqi LGBT community. Gays and lesbians are being mowed over by fanatic Muslims, and by the Sadr.

Ayatalloh's calling for Fatwa's against the LGBT, saying that harming them is okay. Sistani and al-Baghdadi are two pieces of religious work. Sistani is even supposed to be the moderate. He has a web site where he made his Fatwa then retracted them, later, supposedly.

Unfortunately, some of the crazy Iraqis must have not gotten the message because they continue to brutalize gays. Some of the biggest asylum seekers to the UK are members of the LGBT community from Iraq.

It's just a plain shame. We applauded the Iraqi constititution, but the basis for it is conservative Islamic ideology does not tolerate homosexuality. And we conceded that church/state aspect in order to show the world how we helped the Iraqis form this new constitution.

But what it seems to constitute for the many LGBT in Iraq is non-inclusion. If Bush says he wonders what are the alternatives to democracy in Iraq, I think he's got it, already.

[hooligan]

I think I read some place, that those at the margins of any society are always to lose when society changes dramatically. It's like either scapegoating for the problems of society, or easy targets because they're part of vulnerable communities (who are often overlooked when the resources run out). Although, it must be hard to push these values onto other countries we're building when it's so overlooked in the US as well. Not to say it's comparable, but we have our own set of problems with the LGBT community here in the US.

[CBC guy]

Well what do you expect. Not every country can be quite as ideally liberal as we might wish. Its not perfect but that's reality. And besides, most Iraqis have a lot more to worry about than the status of the GLBT community. That said, Islam was never known for being kind to homosexuality. So its a wonder that the GLBT community can even exist in Islamic countries.

[hooligan]

Originally Posted by CBC guy

Well what do you expect. Not every country can be quite as ideally liberal as we might wish. Its not perfect but that's reality. And besides, most Iraqis have a lot more to worry about than the status of the GLBT community. That said, Islam was never known for being kind to homosexuality. So its a wonder that the GLBT community can even exist in Islamic countries.

Christianity is no better, but I think the point is that those who are LGBT are seriously getting the short end of a very short stick.

[CBC guy]

Christianity today at least don't arrest and behead gays or something. However, this is quite possible in certain Islamic countries.

There are a lot of very liberal christians, its just that the media concentrates on the right wing fringe so that's the rap that we christians get.

[hooligan]

Originally Posted by CBC guy

Christianity today at least don't arrest and behead gays or something. However, this is quite possible in certain Islamic countries.

There are a lot of very liberal christians, its just that the media concentrates on the right wing fringe so that's the rap that we christians get.

There are just as many liberal Muslims, Buddhists, and Rastafarians. There's no difference.

[cmar]

religion is always the problem (war, oppression hatred) and never the answer (peace, love, understanding) - we would all be so much better off if we could rid the world of it

[Martino]

Originally Posted by CBC guy

Christianity today at least don't arrest and behead gays or something. However, this is quite possible in certain Islamic countries.

There are a lot of very liberal christians, its just that the media concentrates on the right wing fringe so that's the rap that we christians get.

Anti-gay attitudes are still global.

"Christianity at least wont ..." is a highly inadequate response for those of us still fighting for gay equality in the West. What, you think it's a bed of roses for us?

Muslim clerics still encourage homophobia, but so too do Christian bishops, Reggae singers, rappers etc.

Homosexuality was punishable by death here in the UK as little as a century ago. It was still a 'criminal' offence you could go to prison for as recently as 1967. After 1967, homosexuality wasn't completely decriminalised and still isn't.

So-called Christians in the UK and USA still view homosexuality as a sin to be purged, we still feel the hate, and let's face it that hate has led to murder. And let's not forget, Christianity has a pretty bloody 2000 years behind it too.

Originally Posted by cmar

religion is always the problem (war, oppression hatred) and never the answer (peace, love, understanding) - we would all be so much better off if we could rid the world of it

Don't be so naive.

[mizhi]

Originally Posted by hooligan

Christianity is no better, but I think the point is that those who are LGBT are seriously getting the short end of a very short stick.

I haven't seen a predominantly Christian society approvingly and enthusiastically dangle two young boys for the crime of sodomy in a long, long time.

http://gayorbit.net/?p=2459

Originally Posted by CBC guy

Christianity today at least don't arrest and behead gays or something. However, this is quite possible in certain Islamic countries.

Depends on the sect. Mr Phelps would almost certainly personally pull the trigger as an executioner were he to have power. Fortunately, his odious brand of Christianity and others that are close in beliefs to him are in the minority and not in power.

The problem with Islamic countries is not that most Muslims would enthusiastically execute gays, but that they are almost all currently ruled by adherents to extremely hostile sects of Islam. Additionally, it's a truism that the vast majority of people are only as individualized as a mob allows. Get enough people chanting "Hang them" and it will seem like a majority. Right now, the more moderate Muslims are simply not being heard, they're either not speaking up (for fear of death), being silenced (by death, disappearance, or torture), or simply being ignored by a media culture (both Western and Middle-eastern) that prefers sensationalistic stories that include blood, death, and controversy.

Originally Posted by cmar

religion is always the problem (war, oppression hatred) and never the answer (peace, love, understanding) - we would all be so much better off if we could rid the world of it

As Martino said, that's naive.

The problem is human, not religion.

Originally Posted by Martino

Muslim clerics still encourage homophobia, but so too do Christian bishops, Reggae singers, rappers etc.

Yes, but a big difference is that Christianity doesn't rule the countries. It influences its constituents, which influence government, but there is still the recognition that the government is inherently separate and the last word on what is lawful and what is not. There is no such recognition of separation and deference to secular rule in Muslim countries.

Originally Posted by Martino

So-called Christians in the UK and USA still view homosexuality as a sin to be purged, we still feel the hate, and let's face it that hate has led to murder.

Yes, but as a general rule, Christianity frowns upon killing people. It, instead, tries to save them. Which, IMO, can be almost as annoying.

Originally Posted by Martino

And let's not forget, Christianity has a pretty bloody 2000 years behind it too.

I've heard it said a few times, and I think it's fairly accurate, that Islam is about 500 years behind Christianity and Judaism in terms of its relationship and place in the role of government and the lives of its followers. Like you said, Christianity has a bloody past and 500-600 years ago was probably were when it was the bloodiest. Judaism, even earlier. Hell, even Buddhism has been involved in some wars, though not as the primary justification for conquest. What I hope is that Islam and Muslims come around more quickly than the rest of the world's religions and its followers.

[Martino]

Originally Posted by mizhi

Yes, but a big difference is that Christianity doesn't rule the countries. It influences its constituents,

Really? Mr Bush seems to be heavily influenced by the American Christian fundamentalist agenda. It seems to be the 'in' doctrine on Capitol Hill.

Originally Posted by mizhi

which influence government, but there is still the recognition that the government is inherently separate and the last word on what is lawful and what is not.

Check out the cases represented by the One campaign. The US government opposes a lot of much needed gay legislation.

Originally Posted by mizhi

There is no such recognition of separation and deference to secular rule in Muslim countries.

Different brands of Islam, like different brands of Christianity (thats a poor marker for our capitalist culture - even religions are 'brands') have different views on homosexuality.

Originally Posted by mizhi

I've heard it said a few times, and I think it's fairly accurate, that Islam is about 500 years behind Christianity and Judaism in terms of its relationship and place in the role of government and the lives of its followers. Like you said, Christianity has a bloody past and 500-600 years ago was probably were when it was the bloodiest. Judaism, even earlier. Hell, even Buddhism has been involved in some wars, though not as the primary justification for conquest. What I hope is that Islam and Muslims come around more quickly than the rest of the world's religions and its followers.

Islam came along 600 years after Christianity ... but it was going through a period of great Enlightenment and high culture when the Christian crusaders came along and destroyed it all.

Swings and roundabouts.

[mizhi]

Originally Posted by Martino

Really? Mr Bush seems to be heavily influenced by the American Christian fundamentalist agenda. It seems to be the 'in' doctrine on Capitol Hill.

Yes, but he can't execute their whims by fiat. Congress is not, fortunately, a rubberstamp legislature that approves everything the President says. Like I said, religion influences government, which influences law; religion doesn't control government, nor is it the government. In a country like Iran or Saudi Arabia or Syria, this is not the case. You have a government which violently suppresses competing ideas.

Originally Posted by Martino

Check out the cases represented by the One campaign. The US government opposes a lot of much needed gay legislation.

Do you mean http://www.one.org/? Do you have a link?

Originally Posted by Martino

Different brands of Islam, like different brands of Christianity have different views on homosexuality.

I made this point using different words, did I not? The difference is that those sects (brands, whatever) are not in absolute power.

Originally Posted by Martino

Islam came along 600 years after Christianity ... but it was going through a period of great Enlightenment and high culture when the Christian crusaders came along and destroyed it all.

True, but don't forget that in this period of enlightenment, the Muslims were also on imperial conquest; a part of the catalyst of the crusades. IIRC, Mystic Islam was flourishing at this point in a similar fashion to mystic Judaism prior to Christ.

[Yeahman]

Originally Posted by hooligan

There are just as many liberal Muslims, Buddhists, and Rastafarians. There's no difference.

Where did you get the idea that there are just as many liberal Muslims as there are liberal Christians? I'm willing to bet that a global poll would prove otherwise.

Originally Posted by cmar

religion is always the problem (war, oppression hatred) and never the answer (peace, love, understanding) - we would all be so much better off if we could rid the world of it

Mother Teresa, the Dalai Lama, Bishop Tutu, MLK...
Damn warmongers!


It isn't about seperation of church and state. A Christian theocracy would still probably afford more rights for gays than an Islamic theocracy. The problem is much deeper than that. As the Holy Father pointed out, the problem is that Islam lacks a doctrine of plurality. It took Christianity 1500 years to develop one. The solution is a religious one. Without abandoning the tenents of their faith, they can develop a doctrine of plurality that tolerates the people they now oppress. Islam will come along but probably not in my lifetime.

[Martino]

Originally Posted by ye110man

Where did you get the idea that there are just as many liberal Muslims as there are liberal Christians? I'm willing to bet that a global poll would prove otherwise.

I never expected a 'my religion is better than yours' from you.

Originally Posted by ye110man

It isn't about seperation of church and state. A Christian theocracy would still probably afford more rights for gays than an Islamic theocracy. The problem is much deeper than that. As the Holy Father pointed out, the problem is that Islam lacks a doctrine of plurality. It took Christianity 1500 years to develop one. The solution is a religious one. Without abandoning the tenents of their faith, they can develop a doctrine of plurality that tolerates the people they now oppress. Islam will come along but probably not in my lifetime.

The Anglican bishops of Africa probably don't agree with you. That fascist Archbishop Peter Akinola and the Anglican Church in Nigeria certainly wouldn't.

Akinola is spnsored by the US-based 'Institute on Religion and Democracy'. The same institute sponsors anti-gay elements in the Episcopal, Methodist, Presbyterian and Lutheran churches, and the United Church of Christ.

Gay groups around the world are still struggling against oppressive Christians, even in Europe. A good yardstick is to look at what groups oppose Gay Pride around the world. Just last month, a sustained Christian fundamentalist campaign of hate in Latvia nearly succeeded in stopping the Riga Gay Pride march.

And has the Vatican withdrawn its declaration that homosexuality is intrinsically evil? That it is 'a sin contrary to nature'? If it has, I didn't hear about it.

[mizhi]

Originally Posted by Martino

I never expected a 'my religion is better than yours' from you.

That's not necessarily a 'mine > yours' argument though. It's pointing out that, on the whole, Muslims are probably less socially tolerant of gays than Christians. This is about the constituents of the religions as opposed to the institutions themselves, which you point out later in your post.

Regardless, no one here has presented any hard statistics for either group; just gut level feelings. Even then, it would be a gross generalization; as you pointed out, there are different sects of Islam that have varying degrees of tolerance towards gays; just like Christianity. If anyone has statistics (not anecdotes) on how gays are treated in predominantly christian countries vs muslim countries and the methodology used to collect them, I'd be curious to look at them.

And just to throw a curveball into the discussion, consider the curious case of Iran executing gays, but allowing and affirming MTF transsexuals with a religious argument to support the position. In that case, Iran is actually socially progressive when compared with just about every other country save Thailand and possibly India.

[Martino]

Statistics be damned. I'm a gay male, and I see and experience this kind of homophobia all the time.