redskin name can be challenged

[BeTheReds]

Originally Posted by >:^|

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Did anybody here assume that First Nations people all share the same opinion? Why would there ever be any consensus?

Well then if there isn't any concensus, why should the team bend over backwards and jump through all these pc hoops to please what might be an insignificant minority of the native american population?

[>:^|]

Originally Posted by BeTheReds

Well then if there isn't any concensus, why should the team bend over backwards and jump through all these pc hoops to please what might be an insignificant minority of the native american population?

Dude, that's the same argument people use on us all the time.

[Shogun Empress]

LOL@the thread starter! I never heard a Native American complain about the name of the Washington Redskins. It's always some other race...

[Arex]

^--- Have you ever even met an American Indian? 'cause that might explain why you've never heard one complain.

[nola]

^Ohhh man they're mad.

[Arex]

Here's a link with some interesting info about Indians as mascots: http://www.racismagainstindians.org/...ingMascots.htm

According to the page, "Over 81% of respondents to a poll in Indian Country Today, 500 Native organizations, hundreds of tribes and petitions with signatures in the tens of thousands have called for the retirement of these mascots." Assuming the majority of readers of Indian Country Today are American Indians, and assuming that those native organizations actually represent the interests of American Indians, I'd say that a good number of American Indians probably would prefer that Indians not be used as mascots.

Of course, I've never personally heard an American Indian complain either so maybe it's all imagined.=)

[shane]

There was a Sports Illustrated poll of different American Indians (yes, most prefer to be called American Indian rather than Native American) back in 2002 which found that most don't mind the use of even the most "offensive" terms like Redskin. A Google Search will get you decent information on this particular poll. I'm not a statistician, but I'm sure there are flaws to the methodology of this poll (probably not fatal flaws, however).

Similarly, The Tribal Council of the Seminole Tribe of Florida has endorsed the usage of the Seminole name at FSU.

I think the American Indian population and its activists have bigger things to worry about - poverty and high rates of drug abuse on reservations, for example - than a bunch of insensitive athletic teams.

EDIT: The SI poll has been criticized by activists as inaccurate or misleading. It was actually conducted by the Peter Harris Research Group, not SI itself. It is clear that most Indians don't object to the use of mascots, but merely the caricatures by fans irreverently mocking what they believe are Indian cultural practices.

[nola]

A Sports Illustrated poll wouldn't seem reliable.


It's about time:

NCAA Bars Colleges' Indian Mascots in Tournaments

Aug. 5 (Bloomberg) -- The National Collegiate Athletic Association banned the use of American Indian mascots by sports teams during its postseason tournaments, a ruling the president of Florida State University called ``outrageous and insulting.''

The NCAA's executive committee said the organization, which governs college sports, is limiting the prohibition to tournaments it controls. It doesn't have the power to institute an outright ban, said University of Hartford President Walter Harrison, chairman of the committee.

Effective immediately, nicknames or mascots that are determined to be ``hostile or abusive'' can't be shown on uniforms or other team-related clothing, Harrison said. He wasn't specific about which nicknames or logos would be affected.

Florida State President T.K. Wetherell, whose school uses the Seminoles as a nickname and Chief Osceola as a mascot, said in a statement that he would pursue ``all legal avenues'' to overturn the rule.

``The executive committee has been swayed by a strident minority of activists who claim to speak for all Native Americans,'' Wetherell said. ``That the NCAA would now label our close bond with the Seminole Tribe of Florida as culturally `hostile and abusive' is both outrageous and insulting.''

Florida State Tradition

Before each home football game, a Florida State student dressed as Osceola rides a horse onto the field and throws a flaming spear into the turf at midfield. The school's media guide says Osceola's attire was approved by the Seminole Tribe.

Tom Hardy, a spokesman for the University of Illinois, nicknamed the Fighting Illini, in a statement said the school would review the NCAA's ruling. Dan Benson, a spokesman for the University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux, said the school is working on a statement.

Several universities, including Marquette and St. John's, recently changed their American Indian nicknames. Marquette went to Golden Eagles from Warriors, while St. John's became the Red Storm after being known as the Redmen.

Harrison said the NCAA would bar schools with such nicknames or logos from hosting postseason events. In addition, Harrison said any school with such a nickname that has already been chosen to host an NCAA event must cover the logos. The school would be responsible for the cost, Harrison said.

Such logos also will be banned from the uniforms of cheerleaders, dance teams and band members beginning in 2008, Harrison said.

The NCAA will be accepting comment from schools on the new rule until Feb. 1, Harrison said.




I was at FSU for a while as a grad student after visiting my brother who teaches there and learned from a friend in the AIM movement that it has been an issue for years. American Indians are people not mascots for American fun and games. The mascots are racist stereotypes and caricatures like the Sambo black caricature or the frito bandito Latino. Incidentally it hurts American Indian children the most. FSU paid seven figures to use representations of the Seminole tribe so essentially they bought the right. I went to a panel discussion about racist stereotypes and the Seminole Indian panelist said that in the entire history of FSU only one Seminole has attended. President TK Wetherall is clueless about alot of issues.


http://www.aimovement.org/ncrsm/index.html

[draconisz]

Originally Posted by Shogun Empress

LOL@the thread starter! I never heard a Native American complain about the name of the Washington Redskins. It's always some other race...

http://www.aimovement.org

http://forums.delphiforums.com/aim/start

http://forums.delphiforums.com/nativesignals/start

I frequent these places. I hope to meet the Host of "All Natives" in person in October. He is Cherokee.

[nonamerasian]

Originally Posted by shane

Similarly, The Tribal Council of the Seminole Tribe of Florida has endorsed the usage of the Seminole name at FSU.

That council is made up of a little more than a handful of representatives.

There are other Seminole councils are disgraced with the usage of the Seminole name at FSU.

[nola]

Yeah and they were paid seven figures to sellout their culture and people.

[Faithless]

Oh, you'll love this guy's tone.

Redmen, Seminoles, and Savages: The Scourges of Academe

By John David Powell (08/09/05)

Honchos with the National Collegiate Athletic Association (www2.ncaa.org) announced last week a rather bold, yet strange step to eliminate “hostile and abusive racial/ethnic/national origin mascots, nicknames or imagery” by banning such public displays at all of its 88 NCAA championships.

Bold, because the Executive Committee named names and pointed fingers. Strange, because the NCAA did not ban the practice during the regular season.

...

I also have quite a bit of Chinese blood, and I admit to being a bit miffed at the folks in Pekin, Ill. This little Central Illinois town used to call its high school the Pekin Chinks. That’s right. Chinks. Because some nutcase told them Pekin (short for Peking) is directly opposite the earth from the former Peking, China, now Beijing.

Of course, that begs the question of why town leaders don’t changed the name to Beijin.

The Chinks changed their mascot to the Dragons about 20 years ago. That move led to a thriving underground economy dealing in all kinds of contraband, from Chink t-shirts to Chink letter jackets, proudly worn by former Chinks and Chinklettes.

...

The 1926 Pekin Chinks! Wait! They look like crackers...

[nola]

Geez I didn't know this was going on in central Illinois though I'd heard of Pekin, Illinois. That's really obnoxious.

Hopefully, NCAA teams, colleges, high schools and middle schools will eventually no longer use American Indian mascots.

[haplesshobo]

I understand the outrage over using 'redskins' as a team name, and why that's controversial.

But, I think the NCAA went overboard and overreacted with its recent move. It sounds really patronizing that we criticize native american groups for not being outraged over these symbols and tell them that they should be outraged when they're not.

That's a pretty insulting attitude to tell the Seminole tribes that shouldn't take pride in the local college team using a historic native american image. Shouldn't we let them decide what they find abusive and respect their wishes? Why is it hostile and abusive to use a local tribe as a nickname for their college? And, once we abolish those, should we then move on to scrub Indiana, Miami, Dakotas, etc.. because they were named after NA tribes? Where should it end? How about getting rid of Cal State Humbolt's Lumberjack because this is sexist, exploitative, and anti-enviornmentalist? (I'm not shitting you, but there was actually controversy for those exact reasons).

I get the sense that this issue is something that probably outrages native american activists and self appointed community leaders, but something that most native americans really care about, much less take offense to.

Before we start saying that native americans are mostly outraged, has anybody talked with a non-activist native american? Go to Oklahoma, with its large native american population, and ask them if they're bothered by the high number of high schools that use native american imagery.

And, let me point out some of the contradictary claims in this thread:

You criticize SI poll as not being unreliable. So, when SI hands the polling over to a professional group to make sure the polling is done correctly, you criticize the SI poll as misleading since it wasn't done by SI itself. Sure, sampling might not always be perfect, and there might be room for error, but it seemed like an overwhelming majority of NA didn't have a problem with it.

Here's some of the findings from the poll:

“Asked if high school and college teams should stop using Indian nicknames, 81 percent of Native American respondents said no. As for pro sports, 83 percent of Native American respondents said teams should not stop using Indian nicknames, mascots, characters, and symbols.”

The poll also found that 75 percent of Native Americans don’t think the use of these team names and mascots “contributes to discrimination.” Opinion is divided about the tomahawk chop displayed at Atlanta Braves games: 48 percent “don’t care” about it; 51 percent do care, but more than half of them “like it.” The name “Redskins” isn’t especially controversial either; 69 percent of Native Americans don’t object to it.

You criticize the Tribal Council of the Seminole Tribe for endorsing FSU's usage of the seminole imagery for being only a handful of represenatives. Yet, I wouldn't be surprised if we could also level the same accusations at the highly vocal activists who
are protesting it, and not representing the beliefs of the larger NA community.

And, if anybody actually lead Chottamatte's link, this is what the guy who found Pekin Chinks offensive also wrote that:

"I have some Native-American blood pulsing through my veins, yet I pitch my tent with the overwhelming majority of Native Americans cited by FSU who are not offended by the use of Native-American names and symbols.

Well, except for that goofy logo used by the Cleveland Indians professional baseball team."

Obviously, the guy isn't an insensitive bastard as he was offended by Chink name, and even though he was part NA, he didn't find the Seminole thing to be a big deal.

Or, let's look at the Anneberg Poll which found that around 90% of NA weren't bothered by the Washington football team being named the Redskins. Instead, only 9% found it offensive. Here's the link that explains the methodology of the poll:
http://www.annenbergpublicpolicycent...s_09-24_pr.pdf

[BeTheReds]

Of course, that begs the question of why town leaders don’t changed the name to Beijin.

No it doesn't. Peking is still an accepted name for the Chinese capital.