Your experiences with sexism with Asian men

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally Posted by Blue dice

http://www.emory.edu/ENGLISH/Bahri/Orientalism.html

Edward Said wrote extensively about western post colonialist thought and why so many of the misconceptions and stereotypes about asians exist. He was a Palestinian who grew up in both western and middle eastern cultures. They have had several discourses about him at Harvard, and he practically started an entire movement to re-examine western portrayal of asian history. He's a true intellectual Orientalism should be required reading for _every_ asian person. It's a shame asian-american studies haven't embraced his work, what Said talks about reflects on the entire asian region and not just the middle east.

I've watched Edward Said's film 'Orientalism' a total of 3 times (usually it's a staple film in many of the ethnic studies classes here on campus). I agree that he makes many good points.

[mrazntre]

Originally Posted by ayumi

You not being Asian have no idea what I'm talking about. If you're ever invited to a predominately Asian party and you carefully observe what's going on around you and how the men and women are interacting with each other then perhaps you'll have a better understanding. I'm not complaing about party hosting etiquette - I'm complaining about all the sexist Asian men who don't even offer to help out at a party, who expect the women to cook and clean everything at the party (even if it's being held at a guy's place) and I'm also complaining about the Asian women who further this misogynistic stereotyping by not letting the rare Asian (usually Asian-American) man to help out when he kindly offers to do so.

Anyway I'm curious what brings you to this Asian forum. Are you learning the martial arts, or do you enjoy Bruce Lee movies, honorable black man?

No actually, the only Bruce I watch is The Last Dragon Bruce Leroy. I probably don't know what you're talking about when you say "asian parties," but like I said, most parties I go to, the host or hostess usually tells my ass to sit down and stay put. Why does this matter again?

So anyhow, I'm a lover not a fighter. I'd rather be the tool to your learning of the geisha arts, honorable yellow woman.

[missmeow]

Originally Posted by Blue dice

Allright then here's another example..



Now these are completely Americanized korean adoptees who come from caucasian families[...]

How is that in any way replying to anything that I said? You keep trying to hammer this point that it's all about racism. I never stated that racism is not a factor. I stated that it is not the ONLY factor, that IR discrepancy is multi-faceted.

We can all provide anecdotal experiences but the fact is you haven't walked a mile in our shoes to know. You are just looking from the outside as a casual observer making presumptions based on a small cluster of friends.

I can say the same for you. You've never walked a mile in MY shoes either.

When you sarcastically say that AM are just "bitching and moaning" it's obvious what you mean. Even if you don't come right out and say it it's right there for people to read.

Even if that's not what you mean see how that can be misconstrued?

Again, you are taking my words out of context.

I am not going to continue to reply to you if you continue to twist my wording.

[mrazntre]

Originally Posted by Chasiubao_Boy

he's here to pick up some chicks of the asian persuasion.

you're my her0.

[Blue dice]

Originally Posted by missmeow

How is that in any way replying to anything that I said? You keep trying to hammer this point that it's all about racism. I never stated that racism is not a factor. I stated that it is not the ONLY factor, that IR discrepancy is multi-faceted.

Fair enough.

I can say the same for you. You've never walked a mile in MY shoes either.

That's great, you can use that reply when i'm trying to learn more about white feminism from your point of view. However, we're talking about society's perception about asian male sexism.

Again, you are taking my words out of context.

Pray tell what context were you trying to put "bitching and moaning asian men" into?

I am not going to continue to reply to you if you continue to twist my wording.

Oh gosh, I guess i'm just a sexist oppressive asian demagogue. Please enlighten me with your 21st century western ways and take me out of my dark backward culture.

[missmeow]

Originally Posted by Blue dice

That's great, you can use that reply when i'm trying to learn more about white feminism from your point of view. However, we're talking about society's perception about asian male sexism.

First, I can also use that reply when dicussing IRs from the WF perspective.
Second, I never addressed AM sexism in any of my posts.

Pray tell what context were you trying to put "bitching and moaning asian men" into?

Read the post that contained it.

Oh gosh, I guess i'm just a sexist oppressive asian demagogue. [trollbait snipped]

buh?
That's from left field.

[Blue dice]

Originally Posted by missmeow

Second, I never addressed AM sexism in any of my posts.

You were pushing the sexism angle to imply asian male "bitching and moaning" was typical male possessiveness. It's not and i'm pointing out the racist _double standard_ that leads to this IR disparity far more than the usual scenario.

Read the post that contained it.

The context you put it in only reflected your poor understanding of why some asian males are so angry to begin with. It's not so much "because they're dating our women so we'll whine" attitude it's because there are racist reasons behind much of it. Basically, it amounts to a culture of racist perceptions villifying asian males and stereotyping asian females as exotic prizes. I already posted a substantial number of links regarding Orientalism and the west. I'm not even pulling this out of thin air but backing it up with academic references.

[ayumi]

Originally Posted by kittygirl

ayumi, is that really necessary? you should be talking about ideas, not people. if your argument can't defend itself without you having to resort to questioning another person's ethnicity and reason for being here, it's probably not a sound argument in the first place.

I was talking about ideas - it was just frustrating that a person who commented on my idea twisted what I said into something totally unintended due to a lack of experience in situations that could bring about said issues (in this case, sexism towards women in Asian parties). If a "fish out of water" misconstrues the entire framework of my argument and turns it into something else altogether based on that person's lack of familiarity with the issue at hand, then how can you expect my sound argument to "defend itself"? Furthermore I wasn't questioning his ethnicity (why are you black?) I was just curious what brings African-Americans to Asian discussion forums. I've noticed that I do seem to find a large number of Black-Americans (what do we call them these days, anyways?) who are interested in HK Cinema and karate... and I applaud them for their interest in Asian culture.

[shy]

Originally Posted by Blue dice

The context you put it in only reflected your poor understanding of why some asian males are so angry to begin with. It's not so much "because they're dating our women so we'll whine" attitude it's because there are racist reasons behind much of it. Basically, it amounts to a culture of racist perceptions villifying asian males and stereotyping asian females as exotic prizes. I already posted a substantial number of links regarding Orientalism and the west. I'm not even pulling this out of thin air but backing it up with academic references.

it's both... there are racist attitudes w/ SOME situations.. and there are bitching and whining in SOME situations. to say one is greater then the other w/out real proof is a litte presumtious.

and i'd rather not read into stats because coming from psychology/sociology of stats, i've learned that stats can be concluded in different ways depending on a person's biasness.

i think i'm always finding myself in much debate against those who make a big deal about IR-couplings. but i would never use the arguement, "oh, you're just a sour grape about the whole thing because you can't get what you want so you're blaming extrenal forces for all the times you couldn't get THAT girl!" there have been times i've reframed from resorting to that tactic and the guy will be the first to say, "btw, don't think that it's because i don't get any asian women... because i do. that's not why i'm bringing this up." hmm... but i never brought that up! so why would they?

anyway, i hate that argument. why? because... i don't know if that's really true when i am debating this topic with such and such a person. for me to decide that's why this guy is so upset w/ IR-coupling is hitting below the belt. and if i have to resort to that type of way, i've pretty much lost my stance.

i'm sick of hearing that generalization made about guys who are so frazzled about AF/WM relationships. it's not needed... even though we know that SOME of the times, it's probably true. but only for some guys.

i'm also sick of hearing this generalization that AF's who date WM's have some subconcious or total awareness of 'racism' against AM's. and it's interesting how the men who argue this always resort to blaming the media.

yes... i will admit that the media has much influence. but it's tiring to always assume that the women are weak for falling for such a thing. at least that is the vibe i get everytime this damn topic is brought up... again. just as i have no right to assume that said person whom i'm debating with is just being sour grapes due to insecurity, it's also completely presumptious of their part to assume that an asian woman seen with a caucasian male has underlying racist intent and/or is being pressured by the media.

neither of the two are in anyway more factual or less factual then the other.

so until i can hear something actually NEW... i find this discussion just going through a vicious cycle where NOTHING constructive is actually brought up for resolution.

[Blue dice]

Originally Posted by shy

it's both... there are racist attitudes w/ SOME situations.. and there are bitching and whining in SOME situations. to say one is greater then the other w/out real proof is a litte presumtious.

I already posted quite a few scholarly quotes about Orientalism that points out many of the racist attitudes held by typical westerners (read: white Americans) in this country as being inherent within this society and not just imagined racism. Do you really think racist attitudes towards gender don't effect social relationships? Come on, let's not pretend we're completely ignorant of the fact here.

i'm also sick of hearing this generalization that AF's who date WM's have some subconcious or total awareness of 'racism' against AM's. and it's interesting how the men who argue this always resort to blaming the media.

Let's say it's not true, then please explain why so many asian females who become popular in America resort to asian (often asian male) bashing campaigns? Amy Tan, Malkin, Kelly Hu, just to name a few of the more popular offenders. Don't tell me that this idea of a racial hierarchy doesn't play some role in their wanting to bash asians to appease the mainstream white male ego. This is why we'll never have empowerment people like you will deny it even WHEN there are scholarly connections pointing out the stereotypes/racism have centuries old roots in colonialist thought.

it's also completely presumptious of their part to assume that an asian woman seen with a caucasian male has underlying racist intent and/or is being pressured by the media.

Not so presumptious when i've provided evidence to back it up in the form of well respected academic work that even goes out of its way to _illustrate_ the specific stereotypes.

neither of the two are in anyway more factual or less factual then the other.

You're playing the middle road to downplay the entire debate. I took the blue pill a long time ago to see what the reality is in this society.

Also, I find it interesting that it's usually always asian women who chime in to deny that it's all occurring. Yeah we're just sexist whiners right? some women fall into the same Orientalist role stereotyping asian males as backwards, cultureless, oppressive etc. to justify the whole issue.

It's like attributing the disproportionate number of blacks in jail with them being inherently criminal. On the flipside some of you are implying that asian males are complaining about the gender disparity in relationships because it's part of our natural inherent sexist attitudes, desperation, oppressive culture, blah blah. In otherwords even though you're not stating it word for word you're repeating the myth that :

The Oriental is the person represented by such thinking. The man is depicted as feminine, weak, yet strangely dangerous because poses a threat to white, Western women. The woman is both eager to be dominated and strikingly exotic. The Oriental is a single image, a sweeping generalization, a stereotype that crosses countless cultural and national boundaries.

We've heard it all before. It's a blanket justification used to demonize Asian males that has its roots in orientalism.

This time i'm calling you on it.

[mrazntre]

Originally Posted by ayumi

I've noticed that I do seem to find a large number of Black-Americans (what do we call them these days, anyways?) who are interested in HK Cinema and karate... and I applaud them for their interest in Asian culture.

Let's reiterate what you said:

what do we call them these days, anyways?


Okay, we can play that game.
So how many of you Japanese-Americans out (what do we call them these days, anyways? nips, japs, orientals, bonzai bastards? there feel the same way as Ayumi.

[shy]

blue dice...

listen, i know you and i don't see eye to eye. but this thread was about women's personal experiences with racism among asian men. it is not saying that there's no racism the other way around. it's just a thread where us women can talk about our PERSONAL experiences which should not mean that we are stating that our experiences means that all asian men are racist.

i think, that if you want to get anywhere with your argument (which is getting tiresome on this board not just because of you but from MANY others), you should at least respect that thread and not bring your battle into this thread. that's a slap in the face for anyone who started this thread. it's basically like saying, 'oh yeah... well, you women aren't any better!' and i really don't think the initial poster was trying to say who's better then who.

and to add, i know i am also at fault for trying to continue the debate with you. what i should have done is report to the moderator of how you are trying to take over this thread with this battle of yours.

you are definitely not being rude and at least staying civil. but that doesn't mean that you should disrespect such a topic, which i don't think is wrong on any level.

[Blue dice]

Originally Posted by shy

it's getting to the point where even if you meet an AF woman that happens to be dating a WM, she can justify all she wants with good reason that her choice had nothing to do with any underlying racist notions, but due to your 'knowledge' and backed up arguments, you can still twist it around so that no matter what she says, you will gun her down for being racist on some level.

You're wrong. I've never jumped to that conclusion and branded all AF/WM as sellouts or racists. I'm just saying there are indirect and _real_ influences that do contribute to this type of separation in gender.

once again... what's your solution? all i hear is how you quote this and quote that and complain until with much stubborness even AFTER i agreed that an excuse to call you 'whiney and being all sour grapes like' is wrong, yet i haven't hear one sound resolution from your end.

I'm all for female empowerment and feminist rights but not when some women use asian males as a scapegoat or a cassus belli to wage war against "oppressive male" dominance. It's disgusting when those same people always give white males the automatic benefit of the doubt WHILE on the same coin engage in asian male bashing. Fuck that. I won't be pigeonholed and that's why there's so much anger. For the 100000th time it has nothing to do with interracial dating itself but the (often) duplicitous reasoning behind those relationships which discriminates against one gender in favor of another. It's not even really just about interracial relationships anymore but the attempt by the western world to demonize asian males at every turn.

why can't us women have a conversation about our own experiences with sexim w/out htis turning against us into a whole IR coupling rant?

This wasn't about sexism in general but asian male sexism which is such an overblown and often stereotyped topic that I have every right as an asian man to post about it. Also, the sexism (backward) portrayal does factor into the IR dating issue. I wasn't even the first person to bring it up.

You say that i'm being extreme but i'm no more extreme than any other group out there that has had to fight against misrepresentation or for equality.

[Fireblade]

I'll be the first to say it, if no one else does....

after a while, all the bitching in the world couldn't resolve this. Sexism is constructed by society, and the enviornment. BUT, not everyone resprents this, so you can not afford to call each and every one person sexist, or another for calling one such as. In all due respect, we all see the world differently...

[shy]

blue dice,

still won't back down will you?

so i guess you're saying that us women have no right to talk about our PERSONAL experiences. even the ones that aren't extending our PERSONAL experiences to that of the general population of AM's? why is it that you can talk about the whole 'racism' that you see against AM's and we can't talk about our, once again, PERSONAL... I REPEAT P-E-R-S-O-N-A-L EXERPIENCES about sexism that we have experienced in our PERSONAL lives?

don't think that just because this thread is about personal experiences, it is meant to pigeon hole you. if you think that.. then you're taking this WAY to personally and perhaps should bow out of this conversation.

i think i've been mature enough to admit that i also went off on a tangent.

it would be nice to see this maturity reciprocated. any more word out of you other then some apology will just prove that i'm right about you.

it's also sad to see that you're the first person i've ever encountered who's given me a negative karma JUST because i gave you a negative karma. how totally sad also that at least i gave you a reason and all you did was subtract out of spite.

and you justify that you have a right to be extreme just because others are? okay.. yeah. you're right. you're better then me. because you're stooping to the low of others and be a lemming for following 'the mob' as a way to justify your over rated ranting.

please... in this past two months, i can count a huge, unbalanced ratio of IR-ranting over AM sexism. at least this was asking for PERSONAL experiences. if other IR-ranting threads also talked about unfair, personal experiences, i wouldn't object because i believe that we all have a right to talk about things that have happened to us. so long as we keep in mind that it is dangerous to make generalizations out of our experiences onto other AF/AM's.