More hate crime. [Archive] - Yellowworld Forums

BigLew

08-12-2003, 01:40 PM

By J.K. Dineen
Of The Examiner Staff
Published on Tuesday, August 12, 2003

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The bruises have vanished and the scratches have healed.
But only time can tell when or if 19-year-old Jeffrey Woo will stop being haunted by memories of the pack of 20 white kids who allegedly slandered and beat he and four Chinese-American friends two months ago...

Whole article. (http://www.examiner.com/news/default.jsp?story=081203n_hatecrime)

Emperor_Mike

08-12-2003, 02:24 PM

Sadly, cowardly attacks such as these will not get as much exposure as, let's say, the same situation but with African-Americans instead of Chinese-Americans. In both cases, an appalling injustice has been committed to the victims and unfortunately, it is likely a half-hearted attempt will be undertaken by law enforcement officials and mainstream society to address the wrongs.

ModernLogic

08-12-2003, 04:13 PM

This is utterly disgusting.

I think those Chinese triad scumbags in San Francisco should stop extorting money from hard-working Chinese merchants and beat-up white gangs instead. They should start defending their own people instead of bullying them.

I mean look at the Italians. Don Corleone gives back to his community at the expense of others.

sunyang

08-12-2003, 04:16 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Xiao Rong Ji @ Aug 12 2003, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I think those Chinese triad scumbags in San Francisco should stop extorting money from hard-working Chinese merchants and beat-up white gangs instead. [/b][/quote]
My sentiments exactly! I want to buy a round-trip ticket to SanFran myself just to find those white maggots and show them what hate crime is all about :angry:

AliBabaIncorporated

08-12-2003, 04:32 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Xiao Rong Ji @ Aug 12 2003, 04:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> This is utterly disgusting.

I think those Chinese triad scumbags in San Francisco should stop extorting money from hard-working Chinese merchants and beat-up white gangs instead. They should start defending their own people instead of bullying them.

I mean look at the Italians. Don Corleone gives back to his community at the expense of others. [/b][/quote]
If triads really tried to offer "protection" every time someone attacked a Chinese kid, they'd end up spending a lot of their time beating up blacks and Hispanics as well as whites. Sooner or later they'd get into some pointless gang war and get decimated. The present position offers them more money, more safety, and less exposure.

lethal

08-12-2003, 04:35 PM

I'm almost positive that we talked about this before, but I can't find the thread.

I think the most screwed up thing is that the perp kid got released early.

BigLew

08-12-2003, 05:21 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lethalweapon @ Aug 12 2003, 03:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I'm almost positive that we talked about this before, but I can't find the thread.

I think the most screwed up thing is that the perp kid got released early. [/b][/quote]
Maybe but the article came out today so...

BigLew

08-12-2003, 05:22 PM

I mean look at the Italians. Don Corleone gives back to his community at the expense of others. Uhh are you talking about the Godfather...the movie???

BigLew

08-12-2003, 05:24 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Emperor_Mike @ Aug 12 2003, 01:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Sadly, cowardly attacks such as these will not get as much exposure as, let's say, the same situation but with African-Americans instead of Chinese-Americans. In both cases, an appalling injustice has been committed to the victims and unfortunately, it is likely a half-hearted attempt will be undertaken by law enforcement officials and mainstream society to address the wrongs. [/b][/quote]
Agreed, this is evident by the fact that it took months after the incedent actually happened for city law officials to announce they were going to make sure justice happened.

ModernLogic

08-12-2003, 05:37 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BigLew @ Aug 12 2003, 04:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Uhh are you talking about the Godfather...the movie??? [/b][/quote]
Yea, particularly the opening scene to the "Godfather" where this Italian man was telling his greivances to the Godfather about how his daughter was raped by Anglos. See, the Italian Mafia sticks up for their community.

YuheiCarreau

08-12-2003, 05:40 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Xiao Rong Ji @ Aug 12 2003, 07:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> This is utterly disgusting. 

I think those Chinese triad scumbags in San Francisco should stop extorting money from hard-working Chinese merchants and beat-up white gangs instead.  They should start defending their own people instead of bullying them.

I mean look at the Italians.  Don Corleone gives back to his community at the expense of others. [/b][/quote]
Don Corleone was fictitious. And LCN - along with pretty much every other immigrant crime organization - always targets their own people first. I've seen it myself.

lethal

08-12-2003, 08:32 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BigLew @ Aug 12 2003, 08:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lethalweapon @ Aug 12 2003, 03:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I'm almost positive that we talked about this before, but I can't find the thread.

I think the most screwed up thing is that the perp kid got released early. [/b][/quote]
Maybe but the article came out today so... [/b][/quote]
I think I read an article in the SF Chronicle a couple days ago. That's probably what I'm thinking of.

I'll find it.

Here. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/08/06/BA235376.DTL)

August 6.

BigLew

08-12-2003, 09:13 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lethalweapon @ Aug 12 2003, 07:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BigLew @ Aug 12 2003, 08:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lethalweapon @ Aug 12 2003, 03:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I'm almost positive that we talked about this before, but I can't find the thread.

I think the most screwed up thing is that the perp kid got released early. [/b][/quote]
Maybe but the article came out today so... [/b][/quote]
I think I read an article in the SF Chronicle a couple days ago. That's probably what I'm thinking of.

I'll find it.

Here. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/08/06/BA235376.DTL)

August 6. [/b][/quote]
That's right... And I see there are some disparities. In one article it said they are going to J.T.s Diner and the other says TJ Diner...ooooh conspiracy. :P

ren28

08-12-2003, 09:57 PM

That is really messed up, especially in SF. SF is a big-time melting pot for people of all races. If it had happened to me, I would have gone to acess my friend's guns only a couple blocks away and there would have been many dead or severely wounded in that group of 20 racists.

BigLew

08-13-2003, 06:07 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ren28 @ Aug 12 2003, 08:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> That is really messed up, especially in SF. SF is a big-time melting pot for people of all races. If it had happened to me, I would have gone to acess my friend's guns only a couple blocks away and there would have been many dead or severely wounded in that group of 20 racists. [/b][/quote]
Yeah... a melting pot where the ingredients mix like oil and water.

krome

08-13-2003, 07:06 AM

Sad thing is, in most of the MA classes I've ever taken - majority were WMs. Azns seem to want to avoid the kung-fu stereotype or something. Really sad. Especially considering our heritage and all the truly bad*ss ol skool Azn masters. I think we all need to get skilled so that we can easily take on any mofos rollin up to us like this. Especially since we may likely be outnumbered. Put down your f'n PS2 controller and learn to fight.

contra_diction

08-13-2003, 07:20 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (krome @ Aug 13 2003, 06:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Sad thing is, in most of the MA classes I've ever taken - majority were WMs. Azns seem to want to avoid the kung-fu stereotype or something. Really sad. Especially considering our heritage and all the truly bad*ss ol skool Azn masters. I think we all need to get skilled so that we can easily take on any mofos rollin up to us like this. Especially since we may likely be outnumbered. Put down your f'n PS2 controller and learn to fight. [/b][/quote]
i was thinking the same thing, but ps2 controller is okee.

BigLew

08-13-2003, 08:25 PM

even then i still don't think most asian would stand a chinaman's chance in a real life fight Compared to who? Are you trying to say that Asians are inherently weaker?

Napoleon Chynamite

08-13-2003, 09:49 PM

Bruce Lee
5'7" 135 lbs.
Mofo tougher than 99.9% of the world population
'Nuff said

I disagree with a lot of his theory and how he went about things, but there is no denying how badass he was.

With the correct training and attitude towards practical application-based martial arts and self-defense, the average person can easily train to beat down 99.9% of the people likely to engage in a street fight. (This does not include team-ups or people with heavy-duty weapons) Learning to fight requires relatively little effort compared to 'mastery' or 'complete understanding' of a martial art. The latter takes a lifetime and more, the former only requires intense sweating and effort for 3-6 months max. There's nothing magic about it.

Bottom line is just whether or not you feel that in this day and age, self-defense is absolutely necessary. Physical attacks, especially in American society, do not happen that often so it's a matter of being willing to commit.

I know what you guys mean though. When I was still training in kung fu, even in Chinatown, most of the students were white males. Once in a while, you'd come across a black male or white female, and of course, a few Asian males and females. However, my modern wushu class consisted of mostly Chinese people. My taekwondo class was the most mixed, but also arguably the most commercialized, haha.

Chris

08-13-2003, 10:01 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (krome @ Aug 13 2003, 07:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Sad thing is, in most of the MA classes I've ever taken - majority were WMs. Azns seem to want to avoid the kung-fu stereotype or something. Really sad. Especially considering our heritage and all the truly bad*ss ol skool Azn masters. I think we all need to get skilled so that we can easily take on any mofos rollin up to us like this. Especially since we may likely be outnumbered. Put down your f'n PS2 controller and learn to fight. [/b][/quote]
The funny thing is that a lot my AA friends do take MA classes up here. WM are the minority in the Bay Area.

Napoleon Chynamite

08-14-2003, 01:05 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Morientes @ Aug 13 2003, 11:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FrozenPizza @ Aug 14 2003, 04:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Bruce Lee
5'7" 135 lbs.
Mofo tougher than 99.9% of the world population
'Nuff said

I disagree with a lot of his theory and how he went about things, but there is no denying how badass he was.

With the correct training and attitude towards practical application-based martial arts and self-defense, the average person can easily train to beat down 99.9% of the people likely to engage in a street fight. (This does not include team-ups or people with heavy-duty weapons) Learning to fight requires relatively little effort compared to 'mastery' or 'complete understanding' of a martial art. The latter takes a lifetime and more, the former only requires intense sweating and effort for 3-6 months max. There's nothing magic about it.

Bottom line is just whether or not you feel that in this day and age, self-defense is absolutely necessary. Physical attacks, especially in American society, do not happen that often so it's a matter of being willing to commit.

I know what you guys mean though. When I was still training in kung fu, even in Chinatown, most of the students were white males. Once in a while, you'd come across a black male or white female, and of course, a few Asian males and females. However, my modern wushu class consisted of mostly Chinese people. My taekwondo class was the most mixed, but also arguably the most commercialized, haha. [/b][/quote]
i disagree that with the right training an average person could beat 99.9% of people who engage in street fights. sure, if you're more trained and physically fitter and stronger than your opponent then no doubt you'll end up beating the crap out of the guy. but what if you came up against a trained fighter? a wrestler, boxer, submission fighter or just a plain bar room brawler? added to that he's probably done a lot of weight training and the situation becomes grey. i'm not saying that asians could never beat non-asians up (though ever see the latest Pride GP and recent UFC fights? - whites/blacks beating the crap out of the best Asian (Japanese) MMA's? :( ), what i'm saying is that size and mass matters alot in fights and street fights are no exception. granted - fortunately most people who engage in street fights are bums and untrained fighters so you are in probability highly likely to beat the crap out of the opponent. but if you ever come up against a trained guy i think the result will be different. [/b][/quote]
Perhaps I was unclear in my post. I meant 99.9% of people who would be likely to engage or confront you on the street. 99.9% of these people are not professional fighters who hit the punching bag 24/7 and are obsessed with training.

It is also just my impression and opinion that UFC (or K2 or anything similar or related) is a big corrupt ass joke. Give me a break. I am not even that great, and I see people missing openings left and right. Real, trained, practical fighters would not make these kinds of mistakes (i.e. face is inches within reach and they leave that target untouched when simple repeated elbows would end the fight very quickly). I also have UFC footage that proves that at least some of the fights are fixed (one of the matches being a Japanese guy vs. a Hawaiian American guy). UFC rules (maybe they have changed?) also cater to grapplers. You can't gouge the eyes, you can't go for the groin (well maybe you can, but it's more of a courtesy thing), etc. Of course the grappler is gonna have the advantage. Why do you think the Gracies were able to maintain their streak and reputation for so long? Not to mention, you won't find real Asian masters with any amount of pride or dignity caught dead in one of these ridiculous commercialized so-called 'pride matches'. Real 'trained' individuals can kill or maim with single strikes. If these guys are so top-notch and hardcore, we should be expecting people becoming crippled or killed in much more instances. Wonder why this never happens (or happens very rarely) at a UFC tournament? I'm not talking about black eyes or cuts and bruises on the face. Where are the broken legs, the snapped arms, the brain damage from an easy strike to the temple or nose-bridge? A bunch of sweaty testosterone-laden crap that has no purpose other than making money as far as I'm concerned.

P.S. That Japanese guy vs. the American guy fight. It was pretty damn hilarious. It was so obvious that it was fixed. Japanese guy starts off the fight with a flying jump kick. American guy dodges it and proceeds to repeatedly pound the guy in the face. Problem is that the American guy's body is blocking the camera but you can very easily see (via the slow motion option) that he is not really even punching the Japanese guy, but actually hitting the chain-link fence behind the guy's head! And the Japanese fighter. What a joke. Master of martial arts my ass! Rest assured this guy does not represent the 'best of Japan' or whatever. Yeah ok, the best and most practical way to win a fight is to run at the guy, leap into the air like you're in one of those movies. It was so comical, I couldn't believe I was supposedly watching a 'hardcore' pride match or whatever they are called. The Japanese guy (after supposedly getting pummeled like 15+ times in the face) wasn't even bleeding afterwards. I'll watch Cung Le or Alex Gong (when he was still alive) any day. Although they still fight within rules and regulations, they are much better than the vast majority of these UFC/K2/Pridewhatever poseurs.

Napoleon Chynamite

08-14-2003, 01:11 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Morientes @ Aug 13 2003, 11:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> compared to white and black males. our physiques just don't match up. i'm comparing average size for size. there's always exceptions but from our physiques we our limited in our potential. [/b][/quote]
Genetically speaking, Asians are, on the whole, smaller in frame and have lighter bones. However, there are many other variables, including proportion of fast-twitch (white muscle fibers) muscles to slow-twitch muscles (red muscle fibers) in various areas of the body as well as the proportion of muscle mass in relation to the whole skeletal frame period. Yes, mass matters, but then again, so does speed which is an indispensable variable for the sake of power (not to mention evasion). Fast-twitch also allows for more explosive movements whereas slow-twitch facilitates movements or sustained actions of an aerobic-type nature. In this area, I think a lot of Asian people have the advantage in that they have more fast-twitch muscles in their legs and arms (i.e. especially in the calf area), which, coupled with their overall smaller size and mass, allows for more explosive speedy movements. Being lighter and having bigger proportionate calf muscles for instance also allows people to be able to acquire a higher vertical leap, although arguably in a real life confrontation this would have little to no value, haha. Personally I think it's all about finding a style or way of doing things that suits what you have.

On a side note, if you are talking about pure brute strength or anaerobic exertion (such as weightlifting), maybe I would be inclined to agree that Asians generally are not as capable as whites or blacks, but even that is stretching it since plenty of Asians win weightlifting medals at various games while competing against whites or blacks (although this might also be attributed to good technique and transferrence of energy or power). I personally know this short-ass Vietnamese kid (around 130-140 lbs I think) who can bench-press 250 lbs. Dun ask me how he does it, all I know is that he fucking scares me, haha.

Napoleon Chynamite

08-14-2003, 01:45 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Morientes @ Aug 14 2003, 12:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FrozenPizza @ Aug 14 2003, 08:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Perhaps I was unclear in my post. I meant 99.9% of people who would be likely to engage or confront you on the street. 99.9% of these people are not professional fighters who hit the punching bag 24/7 and are obsessed with training.

It is also just my impression and opinion that UFC (or K2 or anything similar or related) is a big corrupt ass joke. Give me a break. I am not even that great, and I see people missing openings left and right. Real, trained, practical fighters would not make these kinds of mistakes (i.e. face is inches within reach and they leave that target untouched when simple repeated elbows would end the fight very quickly). I also have UFC footage that proves that at least some of the fights are fixed (one of the matches being a Japanese guy vs. a Hawaiian American guy). UFC rules (maybe they have changed?) also cater to grapplers. You can't gouge the eyes, you can't go for the groin (well maybe you can, but it's more of a courtesy thing), etc. Of course the grappler is gonna have the advantage. Not to mention, you won't find real Asian masters with any amount of pride or dignity caught dead in one of these ridiculous commercialized so-called 'pride matches'. Real 'trained' individuals can kill or maim with single strikes. If these guys are so top-notch and hardcore, we should be expecting people becoming crippled or killed in much more instances. Wonder why this never happens (or happens very rarely) at a UFC tournament? I'm not talking about black eyes or cuts and bruises on the face. Where are the broken legs, the snapped arms, the brain damage from an easy strike to the temple or nose-bridge? A bunch of sweaty testosterone-laden crap that has no purpose other than making money as far as I'm concerned. [/b][/quote]
i think you've made yourself very clear on the 99.9% of people who've engaged in street fight statistic.

ufc - a corrupt ass joke? you got to be kidding me right? you're right to an extent, they don't have the best mma fighters; pride has, but even then ufc fighters are no bums either. to the untrained eye it's human cockfighting, but to martial arts enthusiasts it's showing what techniques work and which does'nt. i don't know why you state that real asian masters would'nt compete in the tournament is because they have the power to kill or maim with one strike. unless i see it i'm not going to believe it. it's like saying one can fly but one does'nt do it for fear of breaking a 700 year old secret. why does'nt any kung fu or old skool bad ass mofo go in there and kill or maim second rate ufc or whatever fighters? is it because they've got too much of a reputation to lose?

also, you can't knock grappling. apparently most fights end up on the ground (not good if your opponents buddies around) but from what i've seen most fights do tend to end up on the floor. now, unless you can physically knock your opponent out, which many trained fighters including boxing champions fail to do, then sooner or later i think you'll be on your back.

i also think the reason why you see people missing open opportunities is because it's a fight and in a real fight nothing is as easy like it is in movies. yeah, you can have a guy kick ass ala jet li style and be untouchable in a film but in real life just handling one opponent is pretty damn tough even for a highly trained fighter. [/b][/quote]
Of course, in a real fight, things are murky and it's so much easier for the audience to criticize. However, it's situations where the opponents' faces are in full range for attack and yet they proceed to focus on everything BUT hitting their face. If I was in any type of physical confrontation and I wanted to do everything I could to incapacitate them, the face would be my primary target, ESPECIALLY if it was inches within an easy elbow. That is just ridiculous. If these people really wanted to win, all they'd have to do is target the facial area (which they don't), instead of rolling around on the ground and trying to pin the other guy.

This Asian master-thing is not some mystical magical spoof. It is actually not that difficult to cause major damage if you have any type of decent power. Bottom line is that it's obvious that people hold back on their strikes. Either that or their strikes are garbage, in which they are poorly trained fighters (in comparison to well trained fighters). You actually think that if people were going full power that the majority of these people would leave the ring with just bruises and cuts? These are supposedly trained fighters right? People who supposedly train for maximation and equilibrium of power and efficiency complemented with energy conservation with every movement and strike? Not middle-aged businessmen looking to get in shape by attending the local YMCA judo club. Additionally, Asian masters, if they are truly masters, should have nothing to prove. The purpose of studying martial art (at least to them) is not to keep a reputation or to show how many people they can beat down. The whole point of them studying and teaching (if they are worth their salt) is for repeated and constant improvement and both mental and physical cultivation with self-defense as a side benefit, regardless of what combat-hungry (oh, but martial arts were originally just for beating ass!) pseudo traditionalists will tell you.

Napoleon Chynamite

08-14-2003, 02:22 AM

re: asian master mythical spoof - it seems like you're retracting from the very thing you were stating: these old skool bad ass mofos could kill, or at the least maim with their strikes. so, now because they could do that it seems like they don't need to do it. a contradiction don't you think? even though they never proved it?

Uh, no I did not retract anything. These guys (at least some) can kill or inflict major damage, my point is that they have no reason or urge to prove to the world (or to a paying audience) that they are capable of accomplishing such a task.

about physical and mental improvement - o.k, so why call martial art a martial art in the first place? you can simply have called it something else - something without the martial. in martial arts you cannot seperate the martial from art. kicking ass (excuse my french) is an integral part of being a martial artist as spiritual improvement. if you just wanted to improve your body through physical exercise, and also your mind why did'nt you just call your routine 'yoga' or someting like that?

We can argue the semantics or appropriateness of the term 'martial art' all day long. Like it or not, some people will naturally focus more on the 'artsy' portion of martial arts (fancy techniques impractical to real fighting, etc) and others will focus on the more 'martial' portion. All this aside, bottom line is that people study or train in martial arts for a variety of different reasons, some for fighting, some for self-defense, some for simply health, some for enjoyment, and some for leisure. It is my understanding that most 'masters' continue their study and training for the sake of a mixture of the reasons listed above, the self-defense portion being completed however very early on in their training.

Deadpool

08-14-2003, 03:00 AM

Deadpool

08-14-2003, 03:20 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FrozenPizza @ Aug 14 2003, 12:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Why do you think the Gracies were able to maintain their streak and reputation for so long? Not to mention, you won't find real Asian masters with any amount of pride or dignity caught dead in one of these ridiculous commercialized so-called 'pride matches'. Real 'trained' individuals can kill or maim with single strikes. If these guys are so top-notch and hardcore, we should be expecting people becoming crippled or killed in much more instances. Wonder why this never happens (or happens very rarely) at a UFC tournament? I'm not talking about black eyes or cuts and bruises on the face. Where are the broken legs, the snapped arms, the brain damage from an easy strike to the temple or nose-bridge? A bunch of sweaty testosterone-laden crap that has no purpose other than making money as far as I'm concerned.

[/b][/quote]
I don't agree with you. If you wan't to see a real No hold barred match between a Kung Fu amster and a grappler or a Karate Master against a grappler I got some. It ain't pretty. BTW they did try to eye gouge and all the supposedly uber deadly shit McDojos so proudly promote. (heh, I've been eye gouged before while choking out some guy did do any damage to me. He didn't know that blood chokes take effect in seconds and he was napping pretty damn quick.) Also the funny thing is whats stopping your opponent/enemy from gouging, biting, scratching you? Nothing.
The fact is the fighters in Pride, UFC, IVC, etc.... are all atheletes and trained fighting atheletes at that.

Oh BTW I still don't agree that Whites and blacks dominate MMA.
Brazilians and Japanese do. HAHAHAH

Deadpool

08-14-2003, 03:23 AM

Why the hell did this turn into a Martial Arts talk anyways?
All the training in the world isn't going to help against a beat down from 20 guys or being murdered in cold blood.

krome

08-14-2003, 06:07 AM

If you wan't to see a real No hold barred match between a Kung Fu amster and a grappler or a Karate Master against a grappler I got some.
Yeah, let's see some!

i also question whether old skool asian masters were bad ass mofos; i really don't think 90% of them would last in a real street fight.
Internal arts masters - I would say so. Plenty of accounts from white/black dudes crossing hands/sparring with them as well to back this up. Basically, they got toyed with. But, granted, it's a small % who have real skills - usually founders of arts, first few gen lineage disciples or dedicated practitioners who can think on their own.

How many people here actually practice MA?

Green_Circle

08-14-2003, 06:08 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Morientes @ Aug 14 2003, 07:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FrozenPizza @ Aug 14 2003, 04:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Bruce Lee
5'7" 135 lbs.
Mofo tougher than 99.9% of the world population
'Nuff said

I disagree with a lot of his theory and how he went about things, but there is no denying how badass he was.

With the correct training and attitude towards practical application-based martial arts and self-defense, the average person can easily train to beat down 99.9% of the people likely to engage in a street fight.  (This does not include team-ups or people with heavy-duty weapons)  Learning to fight requires relatively little effort compared to 'mastery' or 'complete understanding' of a martial art.  The latter takes a lifetime and more, the former only requires intense sweating and effort for 3-6 months max.  There's nothing magic about it.

Bottom line is just whether or not you feel that in this day and age, self-defense is absolutely necessary.  Physical attacks, especially in American society, do not happen that often so it's a matter of being willing to commit.

I know what you guys mean though.  When I was still training in kung fu, even in Chinatown, most of the students were white males.  Once in a while, you'd come across a black male or white female, and of course, a few Asian males and females.  However, my modern wushu class consisted of mostly Chinese people.  My taekwondo class was the most mixed, but also arguably the most commercialized, haha. [/b][/quote]
i disagree that with the right training an average person could beat 99.9% of people who engage in street fights. sure, if you're more trained and physically fitter and stronger than your opponent then no doubt you'll end up beating the crap out of the guy. but what if you came up against a trained fighter? a wrestler, boxer, submission fighter or just a plain bar room brawler? added to that he's probably done a lot of weight training and the situation becomes grey. i'm not saying that asians could never beat non-asians up (though ever see the latest Pride GP and recent UFC fights? - whites/blacks beating the crap out of the best Asian (Japanese) MMA's? :( ), what i'm saying is that size and mass matters alot in fights and street fights are no exception. granted - fortunately most people who engage in street fights are bums and untrained fighters so you are in probability highly likely to beat the crap out of the opponent. but if you ever come up against a trained guy i think the result will be different. [/b][/quote]
If a trained fighter attacks you in the street, then you've got a real fight on your hands. Aside from that, you skills would come in handy up against the normal average joe. Boxing is effective also but keep in mind that Mike Tyson, as badd as he is, knows that there are regular, street thugs back in his hood that could kick his ass any day of the week. They're not even trained boxers just street hoods.

krome

08-14-2003, 06:16 AM

BTW, Gracies also were the ones producing the first several UFCs - and geared the rules to favor grappling. As well as selected and deselected certain opponents. Some WC guys from Augustine Fong's WC school in AZ, for example, complained that some patsys got selected over them in tryouts. But, yea, they are still great at what they do!

BigLew

08-14-2003, 06:54 AM

Napoleon Chynamite

08-14-2003, 12:59 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Deadpool @ Aug 14 2003, 02:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The fact is the fighters in Pride, UFC, IVC, etc.... are all atheletes and trained fighting atheletes at that. [/b][/quote]
In that case, athletes by definition train for sports, which in turn have rules. Real fighting and confrontation has no rules. Reinforces my point. A fighting athlete is still an individual who trains within set boundaries.

Deadpool

08-14-2003, 02:08 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FrozenPizza @ Aug 14 2003, 11:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> In that case, athletes by definition train for sports, which in turn have rules. Real fighting and confrontation has no rules. Reinforces my point. A fighting athlete is still an individual who trains within set boundaries. [/b][/quote]
Not really. Unles you know exactly how a MMA stylists trains.
The styles and components that make up an MMAer is pretty much for non-ruled combat. The fact is most traditional martial artists don't have the same intensity and training dynamics and a MMAer.

BigLew

08-14-2003, 02:31 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FrozenPizza @ Aug 14 2003, 11:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> In that case, athletes by definition train for sports, which in turn have rules.  Real fighting and confrontation has no rules.  Reinforces my point.  A fighting athlete is still an individual who trains within set boundaries. [/b][/quote]
I agree with this. Even though the claim is NHB (no hold barred) there are still rules and they train to perform best within those guidelines..

And when did this get jacked and turned into a martial arts thread...There aren't enough martial arts communities on the internet already???