..leaving software development...

[torogi]

I can't compete with these http://www.newtechusa.com/PPI/main.asp programmers... For $.69/hour, I'm sure those upper management folks will surely choose one of their own. (-;

[AliBabaIncorporated]

damn, sounds like some guy was bitter about outsourcing. That's what you get for going into such a capital-non-intensive industry with feelings that you're superior to the foreign competition just cuz of where you live ...

[Yeahman]

capital-non-intensive?

[AliBabaIncorporated]

<!--QuoteBegin-ye110man+Jul 31 2003, 06:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ye110man @ Jul 31 2003, 06:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> capital-non-intensive? [/b][/quote]
The barriers to entry in the programming industry are extremely low. All you need are people smart enough to program, some computers, and some training which can be taught with widely available materials. Also, while training programmers, the cost of mistakes or trial-and-error learning is only time.

Capital-intensive industries are those like manufacturing of high-end machine tools. airplane construction, etc. It's harder to be outcompeted by a poor country in one of those, since most poor countries don't have a couple of hundred million dollars to build an airplane factory and then start from scratch and do all the trial and error it takes to build an airplane.

[SunWuKong]

<!--QuoteBegin-AliBabaIncorporated+Jul 31 2003, 09:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AliBabaIncorporated @ Jul 31 2003, 09:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The barriers to entry in the programming industry are extremely low. All you need are people smart enough to program, some computers, and some training which can be taught with widely available materials. Also, while training programmers, the cost of mistakes or trial-and-error learning is only time.

Capital-intensive industries are those like manufacturing of high-end machine tools. airplane construction, etc. It's harder to be outcompeted by a poor country in one of those, since most poor countries don't have a couple of hundred million dollars to build an airplane factory and then start from scratch and do all the trial and error it takes to build an airplane. [/b][/quote]
that's relative isn't it?&nbsp; there are businesses which would cost less than an IT firm, and there are a lot of businesses that would cost more.

but the cost of man-hours is by far more expensive than everything else in the IT industry, especially for a startup.&nbsp; so in that sense - yes, Americans shouldn't have underestimated the technical abilities of IT workers in other countries.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

<!--QuoteBegin-SunWuKung+Jul 31 2003, 06:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Jul 31 2003, 06:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> that's relative isn't it? there are businesses which would cost less than an IT firm, and there are a lot of businesses that would cost more. [/b][/quote]
Well yeah, but the businesses which cost less, Americans have been out of for a while, and wouldn't be interested in doing anyway, since you can't support an American middle-class lifestyle sewing shoes together for a living. So we don't worry about competition in them.

Unless of course, there are amazing advances in robotics which turn shoe-sewing into a capital-intensive industry, and up labor productivity to the point where one worker can produce enough shoes to justify paying him $50k a year + benefits. Of course, that's probably so many damn shoes that you'd only need about a few ten thousand such workers for the entire planet ...

It kinda makes ya wonder, what jobs can Americans do in the future which aren't so easily relocated to other nations? Has to be capital-intensive industries where the knowledge of how to get things right is so tied up in organizational structures and routines that it would be difficult to duplicate elsewhere without significant start-up costs and a long period of trial-and-error.

[SunWuKong]

<!--QuoteBegin-AliBabaIncorporated+Jul 31 2003, 10:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AliBabaIncorporated @ Jul 31 2003, 10:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It kinda makes ya wonder, what jobs can Americans do in the future which aren't so easily relocated to other nations? Has to be capital-intensive industries where the knowledge of how to get things right is so tied up in organizational structures and routines that it would be difficult to duplicate elsewhere without significant start-up costs and a long period of trial-and-error. [/b][/quote]
none of the above.

i'm currently doing one of those jobs that won't be moved offshores - government project. :rolleyes: :P

work for the government or be a government contractor/be on a government project that needs security clearance. you need US citizenship for it. Canadian citizenship is OK, too, because Canada is "low risk".

federal government is a cash cow for the IT industry right now.&nbsp; that's why IT in DC hasn't really gone down as much as other places.

[mr. x]

put a buncha monkeys in a room fulla computers....

and eventually SOMEONE will sue them :P

[Yeahman]

<!--QuoteBegin-AliBabaIncorporated+Jul 31 2003, 06:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AliBabaIncorporated @ Jul 31 2003, 06:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It kinda makes ya wonder, what jobs can Americans do in the future which aren't so easily relocated to other nations? Has to be capital-intensive industries where the knowledge of how to get things right is so tied up in organizational structures and routines that it would be difficult to duplicate elsewhere without significant start-up costs and a long period of trial-and-error. [/b][/quote]
i was wondering the same thing lately. i'm unemployed with an IS degree. i'm thinking about being a stockbroker. jobs can't really move out of the east coast for that. working hours are set at 9:30-4:30 ET.

the most stable jobs out there are one's that serve local customers. like healthcare, lawyers... but we really need something exportable for the economy to survive in the long term. there's airplanes, pharaceuticals, and movies. all capital-intensive.

maybe the US is just screwed. we held the lead during the manufacturing and computer eras. now in the information era, we have an intangible asset. a great opportunity for developing nations. not so great for the US.

[SunWuKong]

<!--QuoteBegin-ye110man+Aug 1 2003, 04:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ye110man @ Aug 1 2003, 04:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i was wondering the same thing lately. i'm unemployed with an IS degree. i'm thinking about being a stockbroker. jobs can't really move out of the east coast for that. working hours are set at 9:30-4:30 ET.

the most stable jobs out there are one's that serve local customers. like healthcare, lawyers... but we really need something exportable for the economy to survive in the long term. there's airplanes, pharaceuticals, and movies. all capital-intensive.

maybe the US is just screwed. we held the lead during the manufacturing and computer eras. now in the information era, we have an intangible asset. a great opportunity for developing nations. not so great for the US. [/b][/quote]
if you don't mind moving to the DC area, you can send me your resume and i'll see if there's anything for you at my project.

[Faithless]

<!--QuoteBegin-SunWuKung+Jul 31 2003, 06:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Jul 31 2003, 06:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> federal government is a cash cow for the IT industry right now. that's why IT in DC hasn't really gone down as much as other places. [/b][/quote]
Really. Does that include the federal offices around the country? I worked for a federal government contractor (DOE) and left before the dried-up.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

<!--QuoteBegin-ye110man+Aug 1 2003, 01:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ye110man @ Aug 1 2003, 01:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> maybe the US is just screwed. we held the lead during the manufacturing and computer eras. now in the information era, we have an intangible asset. a great opportunity for developing nations. not so great for the US. [/b][/quote]
It still is the manufacturing era, to a large extent. The demand for high-tech material goods is growing all over the world. People in countries making the transition from poor to middle income don't want computer programs, they want a mobile phone and a laptop computer and whatnot. And manufacturing is a lot more high tech than some of these alleged "new economy" dot-coms which are basically mail-order houses forwarded 100 years into the future. Manufacturing CCDs or computer-grade pure silicon or gallium arsenide (for blue LEDs, etc) is high tech. Selling cat toys online at pets.com is a joke compared to that.

Unfortunately people in the US have this image of manufacturing as being dirt poor Indonesian peasants sewing Nike shirts together or Chinese stuffed into an urban sweatshop assembling printers out of prefabricated parts.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

<!--QuoteBegin-SunWuKung+Jul 31 2003, 07:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Jul 31 2003, 07:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> none of the above.

i'm currently doing one of those jobs that won't be moved offshores - government project. :rolleyes: :P

work for the government or be a government contractor/be on a government project that needs security clearance. you need US citizenship for it. Canadian citizenship is OK, too, because Canada is "low risk".

federal government is a cash cow for the IT industry right now. that's why IT in DC hasn't really gone down as much as other places. [/b][/quote]
Yeah, every job I've gotten so far in computers (aside from stuff at my university) has been with the government or government subcontractors. But, it's a bit impractical to put everyone in the country to work for the government.&nbsp; We need a value-creating sector as well a value-destroying one. :lol:

[SunWuKong]

<!--QuoteBegin-AliBabaIncorporated+Aug 1 2003, 12:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AliBabaIncorporated @ Aug 1 2003, 12:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But, it's a bit impractical to put everyone in the country to work for the government. [/b][/quote]
the iron rice bowl!

[SunWuKong]

<!--QuoteBegin-ChottoMatte+Aug 1 2003, 11:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ChottoMatte @ Aug 1 2003, 11:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Really. Does that include the federal offices around the country? I worked for a federal government contractor (DOE) and left before the dried-up. [/b][/quote]
not sure how it is around other parts of the country.&nbsp; but the real estate industry in the DC area is booming right now, so that should tell you that the city is not lacking in opportunities and that the federal government is spending.

[Yeahman]

<!--QuoteBegin-AliBabaIncorporated+Aug 1 2003, 08:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AliBabaIncorporated @ Aug 1 2003, 08:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It still is the manufacturing era, to a large extent. The demand for high-tech material goods is growing all over the world. People in countries making the transition from poor to middle income don't want computer programs, they want a mobile phone and a laptop computer and whatnot. And manufacturing is a lot more high tech than some of these alleged "new economy" dot-coms which are basically mail-order houses forwarded 100 years into the future. Manufacturing CCDs or computer-grade pure silicon or gallium arsenide (for blue LEDs, etc) is high tech. Selling cat toys online at pets.com is a joke compared to that.

Unfortunately people in the US have this image of manufacturing as being dirt poor Indonesian peasants sewing Nike shirts together or Chinese stuffed into an urban sweatshop assembling printers out of prefabricated parts. [/b][/quote]
but the manufacturing jobs are no longer in the US. only the R&D is done in the US.