What Do You Think of the Term "Asian American"? [Archive]

AliBabaIncorporated

01-30-2003, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Andrew@Jan 30 2003, 03:50 PM
People who are uncomfortable with the formation of an Asian America, I usually find, are either indifferent to or opposed to our efforts to empower ourselves. Here's a quick response (http://modelminority.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&topic=216&forum=22) I made to such a person on the ModelMinority.com forums.
yeah, a quick response which used a lot of scare tactics and entirely failed to address his point: not only is Asian culture not a monolithic identity, even the average redneck hick or ghetto gangbanger isn't gonna lump Metalhead's hypothetical tall Punjabi into the same category with a Karen tribesman. Racists might commit crimes against Chinese as the result of America losing jobs to Japanese efficiency; racists might commit crimes against Indians or Nepalis as a result of America being attacked by Saudi terrorists, but no racist is gonna go beat up an Malay while shouting "stop taking away our jobs you stinkin' Japs" (though admittedly, he might beat up a 1/2 Chinese person who identifies himself only as Vietnamese). Any article from today's Berita Harian (http://www.bharian.com.my/Current_News/BH/Thursday/Mukadepan/20030129231908/Article/) (a Malaysian newspaper) should illustrate that.

Lumping together all Asians into a political coalition isn't a response to any racial mandate of mainstream America; it's a blatant power grab.

AliBabaIncorporated

01-30-2003, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 30 2003, 03:15 PM
Which are you talking about?
huh? I'm saying, all the different political issues faced by each Asian community in America can't fit together under one "Asian-American politics" umbrella, because they're going to conflict with each other a lot, and when they do, some people are just gonna get screwed. A given policy may be helpful to some people in the "Asian American umbrella" and harmful for others. Then you just get a bunch of ideological motivating shouting, with some people saying "This policy is good for Asians" and pointing to its positive effects on Thais and Pakistani, while others say "This policy is harmful for Asians" because of its negative effects on Koreans and Bangladeshis. and neither one convincing the other side of any of its points.

Inevitably, one side wins out and then is unfairly seen by America as speaking for every American who comes from the Asian continent, not because Americans realistically think of Mongolians and Punjabis as belonging to the same race, but because Asian-American leaders will keep insisting they're some sort of rainbow coalition which represents all the ethnic groups from the Asian continent who live in America.

achtungbaby

01-30-2003, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jan 30 2003, 01:27 PM
Inevitably, one side wins out and then is unfairly seen by America as speaking for every American who comes from the Asian continent, not because Americans realistically think of Mongolians and Punjabis as belonging to the same race, but because Asian-American leaders will keep insisting they're some sort of rainbow coalition which represents all the ethnic groups from the Asian continent who live in America.
Okay, I was first trying to figure out whether you were arguing Asians outside of America had anything in common...

In response to your comment: insisting that there is unity amongst Asian Americans is called political reality. Sure, each ethnicity might have their own specific tenets to an agenda that they might be pursuing, but building a pan-Asian coalition, as Andrew pointed out, is partially in response to mainstream America's broad categorization of us.

Andrew

01-30-2003, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jan 30 2003, 04:27 PM
huh? I'm saying, all the different political issues faced by each Asian community in America can't fit together under one "Asian-American politics" umbrella, because they're going to conflict with each other a lot, and when they do, some people are just gonna get screwed. A given policy may be helpful to some people in the "Asian American umbrella" and harmful for others. Then you just get a bunch of ideological motivating shouting, with some people saying "This policy is good for Asians" and pointing to its positive effects on Thais and Pakistani, while others say "This policy is harmful for Asians" because of its negative effects on Koreans and Bangladeshis. and neither one convincing the other side of any of its points.

Inevitably, one side wins out and then is unfairly seen by America as speaking for every American who comes from the Asian continent, not because Americans realistically think of Mongolians and Punjabis as belonging to the same race, but because Asian-American leaders will keep insisting they're some sort of rainbow coalition which represents all the ethnic groups from the Asian continent who live in America.
To reiterate AB's question, which specific policies are you talking about? Do they constitute the vast majority of issues that get raised by Asian American leaders?

Andrew

01-30-2003, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jan 30 2003, 04:20 PM
yeah, a quick response which used a lot of scare tactics and entirely failed to address his point: not only is Asian culture not a monolithic identity, even the average redneck hick or ghetto gangbanger isn't gonna lump Metalhead's hypothetical tall Punjabi into the same category with a Karen tribesman.
I'm culturally just as far from a Vietnamese immigrant, but that wouldn't make me feel any safer had Gunner Lindberg and Dominic Christopher accosted me on a tennis court (http://modelminority.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=291).

SunWuKong

01-30-2003, 02:09 PM

Andrew

01-30-2003, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 30 2003, 05:09 PM
but don't you think that insisting on using racism as a binding core for asian america is self-destructive?
You'd prefer to deprive us of the ability to organize along the same racial lines that are still being used to marginalize and discriminate against us?

VV o n g B a

01-30-2003, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jan 30 2003, 03:27 PM
huh? I'm saying, all the different political issues faced by each Asian community in America can't fit together under one "Asian-American politics" umbrella, because they're going to conflict with each other a lot, and when they do, some people are just gonna get screwed. A given policy may be helpful to some people in the "Asian American umbrella" and harmful for others. Then you just get a bunch of ideological motivating shouting, with some people saying "This policy is good for Asians" and pointing to its positive effects on Thais and Pakistani, while others say "This policy is harmful for Asians" because of its negative effects on Koreans and Bangladeshis. and neither one convincing the other side of any of its points.

Inevitably, one side wins out and then is unfairly seen by America as speaking for every American who comes from the Asian continent, not because Americans realistically think of Mongolians and Punjabis as belonging to the same race, but because Asian-American leaders will keep insisting they're some sort of rainbow coalition which represents all the ethnic groups from the Asian continent who live in America.
well, the reason asians get together in the first place is because there ARE a lot of issues that affect all asians whether we're east, southeast, or south. of course we're going to have divergent views on many things, but so what? for things we are divergent on, each group within the pan-asian category has their own organizations and can fight their own battles separately if the main organization feels it is not applicable across the board.

this isn't much different than blacks and whites and hispanics. they aren't monolithic groups either. and within even single ethnic groups u'll find divergent views. whats the alternative? not to organize at all? then none of our views would be heard. of course its a powergrab. there is power in numbers. thats why its important to get as inclusive a group as possible on issues that affect the widest range of asians. as the asian population grows, the all-encompassing moniker of asian will grow less important with respect to east, southeast, and south, but that time hasn't arrived yet in my view.

AliBabaIncorporated

01-30-2003, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by Andrew@Jan 30 2003, 05:04 PM
I'm culturally just as far from a Vietnamese immigrant, but that wouldn't make me feel any safer had Gunner Lindberg and Dominic Christopher accosted me on a tennis court (http://modelminority.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=291).
Latinos, persons of African descent, and residents of Canada's Northern Territories would probably suffer the same fear. Should we then consider Colombians and Jamaicans Asian?

You've established a generalized reason why non-whites and whites who are perceived as non-white might have limited common interests in increasing the effectiveness of police patrols in neighborhoods where racists may commit crimes. That doesn't say anything as to the existence of common "Asian issues" applying to everyone with ancestors originating from the Asian continent. Even the perception of some groups from Asia as "model minorities" can hardly be said to apply to every group from Asia.

achtungbaby

01-30-2003, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by Andrew@Jan 30 2003, 02:12 PM
You'd prefer to deprive us of the ability to organize along the same racial lines that are still being used to marginalize and discriminate against us?
I agree. Hate crimes are an extreme example, but even when taking a casual glance at them, you see that perpetrators quite often attack Chinese men for thinking they're Japanese, or Korean men for thinking they're...Korean:P

I think it's important to separate the theoretical fluff of a self-destructiveness that binds Asians together and the political reality necessitating coalitions.

SunWuKong

01-30-2003, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Andrew@Jan 30 2003, 05:12 PM
You'd prefer to deprive us of the ability to organize along the same racial lines that are still being used to marginalize and discriminate against us?
i can understand rallying under similar political causes. but cultural similarities is a thin reason for us to come together. an east asian is as culturally similar to a south asian as he is to a european. what does that make asian america other than a political identity?

VV o n g B a

01-30-2003, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 30 2003, 04:28 PM
what does that make asian america other than a political identity?
whats wrong w/ using asian american as a political identity? i just don't see anything inherently wrong with it. if it becomes unecessary, then so much the better.

rakovlam

01-30-2003, 02:41 PM

Take India, they are the most diverse country in the world. There is no dominant race or dominant language... as diverse as Asia itself. Therefore, Indian unity doesn't exist. In India there is always violent conflict between Muslims and Hindus, different caste members, political affiliation, western values and Indian values, etc. The list goes on and on because it's impossible to merge different people together. In America, people from many countries come here but most tend to become accustomed to American culture and society. That's why we don't have the conflicts as intense as it is in India.

We are NOT the same race. That's why Asia is a continent, not a country. Any attempt to unify people from different parts of a continent is stupid (take the regulation happy EU and the anti-semetic Arab League) Asian-American politics range from socialist to libertarian... Asian politics range even more from fundementalists to Stalinists. Asian-American culture... don't even get me started on the differences among ethnic groups.

You just found out that Asian Americans do not have the same mindset. Not all of us vote Democrat or need to complain about every stereotype in the book. Notice in other races, whites will never unite, Cubans and other hispanics vote differently, and blacks tried to unite but ended up with the violent "black power" establishment. It's the same for Asians.

SunWuKong

01-30-2003, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by VV o n g B a@Jan 30 2003, 05:35 PM
whats wrong w/ using asian american as a political identity? i just don't see anything inherently wrong with it. if it becomes unecessary, then so much the better.
nothing wrong with it. except it's no reason for politically apathetic asian americans to socialise with asian americans of other ethnicities. and it's no reason for asian americans to socialise with asian americans of other ethnicities for reasons other than to discuss politics.

how boring is that

AliBabaIncorporated

01-30-2003, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by VV o n g B a@Jan 30 2003, 05:22 PM
this isn't much different than blacks and whites and hispanics. they aren't monolithic groups either. and within even single ethnic groups u'll find divergent views.

yes, but in the situations you've named, of divergent views within the black community and the white community, we're talking about divergences due to factors such as income, employment position, having kids or not, owning property in Nevada, whatnot. If we see a divergence of views within the black community, we can probably safely say it's not because one race of blacks agree with something and another race of blacks disagree.

So when someone says "a majority of blacks support this policy ABC, though those earning greater than $x per year say it will have a negative effect on y and z" the statement doesn't hide underlying distinctions in the community. You can be sure that differences between blacks on policy ABC aren't due to race or ethnicity. But if someone says "a majority of Asians support this policy DEF, though some disagree," as you're likely to see in mainstream media and even Asian American magazines, you don't know whether the statement is brushing over the fact that the differences of opinion on the policy are primarily due to ethnic differences, as opposed to income differences, religious differences, or whatnot. Basically, the designation "Asian" hides information and makes things less clear.

as the asian population grows, the all-encompassing moniker of asian will grow less important with respect to east, southeast, and south, but that time hasn't arrived yet in my view.
uh, why, exactly? diversity makes the coalition difficult to hold together as it is. more numbers means even more diversity. as the Asian population grows, you're more and more likely to see one group thinking it's big enough to break ranks with the coalition and go it on its own.

VV o n g B a

01-30-2003, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 30 2003, 04:41 PM
nothing wrong with it. except it's no reason for politically apathetic asian americans to socialise with asian americans of other ethnicities. and it's no reason for asian americans to socialise with asian americans of other ethnicities for reasons other than to discuss politics.

how boring is that
this is true to an extent. i've noticed that east and southeast asians mostly socialize for political reasons. the cultural connectivity between regions (ie. east/southeast) vs within the regions (ie chinese/korean, cambodian/laos) just doesn't seem as strong. even the dance clubs that the regions attend are different. east hangs out w/ east, southeast hangs out w/ southeast. thats just reality. but what is the alternative? call each group a different name and fight separately for political gains that both groups feel are important? why do that unless both groups didn't need each other to get stuff done?

VV o n g B a

01-30-2003, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jan 30 2003, 04:43 PM
uh, why, exactly? diversity makes the coalition difficult to hold together as it is. more numbers means even more diversity. as the Asian population grows, you're more and more likely to see one group thinking it's big enough to break ranks with the coalition and go it on its own.
thats exactly what should happen if the group gets big enough. it won't need the political cover of asian american. so what? that should be a good thing.

*edit: i'm not sure if u understood my argument. i agree with you for the most part, but i disagree with the timing. you say there is no need for asian american. i say hopefully there WON'T be a need later, but currently we have a need.

sandra

01-30-2003, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jan 30 2003, 01:20 PM
yeah, a quick response which used a lot of scare tactics and entirely failed to address his point: not only is Asian culture not a monolithic identity, even the average redneck hick or ghetto gangbanger isn't gonna lump Metalhead's hypothetical tall Punjabi into the same category with a Karen tribesman. Racists might commit crimes against Chinese as the result of America losing jobs to Japanese efficiency; racists might commit crimes against Indians or Nepalis as a result of America being attacked by Saudi terrorists, but no racist is gonna go beat up an Malay while shouting "stop taking away our jobs you stinkin' Japs" (though admittedly, he might beat up a 1/2 Chinese person who identifies himself only as Vietnamese). Any article from today's Berita Harian (http://www.bharian.com.my/Current_News/BH/Thursday/Mukadepan/20030129231908/Article/) (a Malaysian newspaper) should illustrate that.

Lumping together all Asians into a political coalition isn't a response to any racial mandate of mainstream America; it's a blatant power grab.
i think it's possible that ronald eben and michael nitz would have mistaken these following malaysians as japanese:

http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/ohtani/malaysia/gif/staff/tony.jpg

http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/ohtani/malaysia/gif/staff/hoo.jpg

http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/ohtani/malaysia/gif/staff/edward.jpg

these are just random pictures, but people confuse malays for koreans, japanese, and chinese all the time.

AliBabaIncorporated

01-30-2003, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by kasia@Jan 30 2003, 06:56 PM
these are just random pictures, but people confuse malays for koreans, japanese, and chinese all the time.
uh kasie, as a non-Malay Malaysian I can tell you that statement is very untrue. where exactly did you get those pictures from? you do realize that Chinese are 27% of the population in Malaysia, and just cuz someone says he's Malaysian by nationality, it doesn't make him a member of the Malay ethnic group. it looks like you just grabbed random pictures from a friend's website or something? I'd bet damn near anything that the reason those guys look so much like Chinese is that, well, they are ethnic Chinese. Malays just don't look like that.

That's why it's better to get pictures from the newspaper, cuz they'll usually give you a name to go with the picture, so you can tell the ethnicity of the person in the picture. (this doesn't work with Indonesians though, cuz most Chinese Indonesians took Indonesian names. Similarly Malaysian Chinese who convert to Islam usually also take Malaysian names). And if you look in the newspaper (Malaysian newspaper in English could be found at, for example, http://www.malaysiakini.com or http://www.thestar.com.my/)

achtungbaby

01-30-2003, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jan 30 2003, 04:15 PM
uh kasie, as a non-Malay Malaysian I can tell you that statement is very untrue. where exactly did you get those pictures from? you do realize that Chinese are 27% of the population in Malaysia, and just cuz someone says he's Malaysian by nationality, it doesn't make him a member of the Malay ethnic group. it looks like you just grabbed random pictures from a friend's website or something? That's why it's better to get pictures from the newspaper, cuz they'll usually give you a name to go with the picture, so you can tell the ethnicity of the person in the picture. (this doesn't work with Indonesians though, cuz most Chinese Indonesians took Indonesian names. Similarly Malaysian Chinese who convert to Islam usually also take Malaysian names). And if you look in the newspaper (Malaysian newspaper in English could be found at, for example, http://www.malaysiakini.com or http://www.thestar.com.my/)
Uh, I think you give too much credit to white people:)

achtungbaby

01-30-2003, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by kasia@Jan 30 2003, 03:56 PM
i think it's possible that ronald eben and michael nitz would have mistaken these following malaysians as japanese:

http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/ohtani/malaysia/gif/staff/tony.jpg

http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/ohtani/malaysia/gif/staff/hoo.jpg

http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/ohtani/malaysia/gif/staff/edward.jpg

these are just random pictures, but people confuse malays for koreans, japanese, and chinese all the time.
Hell, they look Japanese to me!

AliBabaIncorporated

01-30-2003, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 30 2003, 07:16 PM
Uh, I think you give too much credit to white people:)
fine, let the KKK and the world church of the creator decide. I don't think I'm giving them too much credit. as I've said before, find me an instance of an ethnic Malay being beaten up for being a Korean bloodsucker ripping off blacks in south central, a Chinese commie, or a Japanese car manufacturer. conversely find me an example of a Han Chinese guy who was attacked because people thought he was a Muslim terrorist.

BeTheReds

01-30-2003, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 31 2003, 12:16 AM
Uh, I think you give too much credit to white people:)
See, it's statements like this which always seem to bother me here. No offense, I mean I know what you're getting at, AB, but it's just that many people complain about getting lumped into one category, or being thought of as representative of all of Asian America, or not being thought of as an individual, but as a member of this yellow hive of insects incapable of independent thought.

But at the same time, people here lump all white people into the same group as racists bent on getting our women and marginalizing our men from the workforce by creating glass ceilings and quotas.

I know the meaning behind your comment was that "those people look like they could possibly be japanese" and "details about chinese malays are so complicated that anyone who has no experience with malaysia or at least with asian people are not going to understand those complicated differences. Furthermore as most racist white people have very little contact with Asians at all, they would most likely not be aware of how complicated the chinese diaspora is."

But the way you said it... There is some negativity to it.. and a whole race of people are categorized as idiots who would never be able to comprehend the things that Eric was talking about.

Granted I am one of the least PC people I know, but sometimes, it is necessary to watch what you say.

achtungbaby

01-30-2003, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jan 30 2003, 04:31 PM
...and a whole race of people are categorized as idiots who would never be able to comprehend the things that Eric was talking about.
...what?

:lol:

SunWuKong

01-30-2003, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 30 2003, 07:16 PM
Uh, I think you give too much credit to white people:)
i think you don't give them enough credit

fine, you think white people can't tell the difference between a malay person and a chinese person. how about an east asian from a south asian? do you think an indian guy is ever going to be called a sneaky chink? is a chinese guy ever going to be beat up because he's thought to be a muslim? it's fine and all if we want to unite under an embrella of being victims of discrimination, but then again, there's no reason why we should stop at "asian americans", because blacks and latinos face discrimination just the same. we should just rally under the moniker of "minority". you can argue that blacks and latinos face different types of discrimination, but as i just illlustrated in this post, even east asians and south asians face different types of discrimination, and even east asians and south asians discriminate against each other just like blacks discriminate against asians and vice versa.

BeTheReds

01-30-2003, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 31 2003, 01:08 AM
but as i just illlustrated in this post, even east asians and south asians face different types of discrimination, and even east asians and south asians discriminate against each other just like blacks discriminate against asians and vice versa.
East Asians discriminate against East Asians as well.

I am not talking simply about it from the standpoint of Koreans discriminating against Chinese or stuff like that.

I know for sure that Koreans who have their roots in Seoul will be all snobbish when talking to people who came from the countryside.

Northern Chinese and Southern Chinese, even in the 3rd generation in the USA discriminate against each other.

The idea that we need to unite with south Asians by virtue that our ancestors were born on the same landmass does not carry any weight.

achtungbaby

01-30-2003, 06:01 PM

Those are fine and dandy arguments.

I suggest you try actually doing some advocacy work on behalf of Chinese Americans or Korean Americans or Japanese Americans or East Indians or Malays or whomever in this country and then ponder how much these ideas hold weight.

As I said before, for political reasons, Asian American is necessary.

SunWuKong

01-30-2003, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 30 2003, 09:01 PM
Those are fine and dandy arguments.

I suggest you try actually doing some advocacy work on behalf of Chinese Americans or Korean Americans or Japanese Americans or East Indians or Malays or whomever in this country and then ponder how much these ideas hold weight.

As I said before, for political reasons, Asian American is necessary.
i was only responding to your comment about how white people would not be able to tell a chinese person from a malay, and that this somehow means that most asian people suffer the same type of discrimination. asian americans should stick together for political power because there is strength in numbers, not because we face the same types of discrimination.

achtungbaby

01-30-2003, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 30 2003, 06:36 PM
asian americans should stick together for political power because there is strength in numbers, not because we face the same types of discrimination.
Maybe it's just me then, but I don't see what the point is in drawing that distinction.

SunWuKong

01-30-2003, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 30 2003, 09:39 PM
Maybe it's just me then, but I don't see what the point is in drawing that distinction.
the point is that the pan-asian identity does not exist, not even in the types of discrimination that we face.

speshllkay

01-30-2003, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by kittygirl@Jan 30 2003, 08:51 AM
It's important to have a discussion on definition if we're going to talk about being a community seeking equal rights and privileges.
ed zackley

sandra

01-30-2003, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 30 2003, 06:41 PM
the point is that the pan-asian identity does not exist, not even in the types of discrimination that we face.
if it doesn't exist, then why do i - along with hundreds if not thousands of others - identify with being asian-american? is it just an illusion? is identity just an illusion? how can you tell others what they should and should not identify with? it may not exist for you, but it sure as hell can exist for other people.

achtungbaby

01-30-2003, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 30 2003, 06:41 PM
the point is that the pan-asian identity does not exist, not even in the types of discrimination that we face.
I mean, no offense or anything, but if others want to identify with it and it serves their purposes, what's wrong with that? Particularly if you might relate less to it than someone, say, who was born here.

SunWuKong

01-30-2003, 07:14 PM

hey it's just my opinion that's all. i'm not trying to tell people what to identify with. and i think of "asian american" as being entirely much more "american" than "asian". it's a totally american concept, and something which i don't consider to equate to a pan-asian identity.

AliBabaIncorporated

01-30-2003, 07:25 PM

I mean, no offense or anything, but if others want to identify with it and it serves their purposes, what's wrong with that?

cuz the development of any identity which includes such a large number of people who happen to be racially Asian but have at best a tenuous connection to Asian culture, leads the people involved in the identity to think they have some kind of monopoly on what it means to be an Asian in America - identifying with their group and taking on its group markers. the majority surpressing the minority.

besides if you're really that worried about discrimination and hatred from white people, the only solution that has ever been proven by historical example to be effective is to intermarry and tell your kids to do the same until you're blended in completely, like the Africans in Mexico did.

SunWuKong

01-30-2003, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jan 30 2003, 10:25 PM
besides if you're really that worried about discrimination and hatred from white people, the only solution that has ever been proven by historical example to be effective is to intermarry and tell your kids to do the same until you're blended in completely, like the Africans in Mexico did.
well i wouldn't say that we shouldn't "fight the good fight". look at how things are now compared to how it was 50 years ago.

AliBabaIncorporated

01-30-2003, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 30 2003, 10:32 PM
well i wouldn't say that we shouldn't "fight the good fight". look at how things are now compared to how it was 50 years ago.
yeah, but at some time you reach the point of diminishing returns ... any benefits you gain by complaining and protesting are counteracted by the tension and worsening inter-group relations which result from protesting. and it's impossible to completely eliminate the different treatment based on race or misunderstandings between groups which are easily visually distinguishable, just due to human nature.

rakovlam

01-30-2003, 07:40 PM

like the Africans in Mexico did

You mean indians, right? The last time I checked, a mestizo was a mix of spanish and indian. And mestizo is 60% of Mexico's population.

I believe it's racist to think that race = identity. One may be born with a certain color of skin, but no one is born with the same mindset.

AliBabaIncorporated

01-30-2003, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by rakovlam@Jan 30 2003, 10:40 PM
You mean indians, right? The last time I checked, a mestizo was a mix of spanish and indian. And mestizo is 60% of Mexico's population.
The Empire of Mexico also imported African slaves - about 250,000 of them. They intermarried with Indians and blended in genetically to the local population, to the extent that most people aren't aware they were ever there in the first place. :P

tapestrybabe

01-30-2003, 09:32 PM

well... maybe i'm just not understanding... but i believe in the asian american identity... and whether south east asians or east asians... i still dont see why the two groups cant fall under the same umbrella... i mean, if anna guo happened to be a vietnamese... instead of chinese... i would still hope that yw would campaigne for her...

so like, as an east asian, a korean... i have no problems thinking that the south easts asians... are kinda like 'my people'-- falling under the same umbrella as me...

BeTheReds

01-30-2003, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by rakovlam@Jan 31 2003, 03:40 AM

I believe it's racist to think that race = identity. One may be born with a certain color of skin, but no one is born with the same mindset.
Everyone is born with the same mindset.

They know nothing, and have done nothing. Their mindset is "I'm hungry" and "Change my diaper".

When growing up, they learn about who they are with their family and friends.

A lot of times, if your family is all the same race, then you identify with that race. Therefore race does = identity to an extent.

BeTheReds

01-30-2003, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by tapestrybabe@Jan 31 2003, 05:32 AM

so like, as an east asian, a korean... i have no problems thinking that the south easts asians... are kinda like 'my people'-- falling under the same umbrella as me...
Again, I am not attacking you at all, so please don't get angry.

That viewpoint is very very unkorean.

I am not trying to say that you are not Korean or that I am more than you are, because neither statement is true, but what I am trying to say is that I believe that the only people who can possibly have that viewpoint are Americans. It is a very American idea.

I think the only way for a pan-asian american identity to ever exist would be if all asian-americans woke up tomorrow knowing almost nothing about Asia itself. Or if the 3rd generation were to ever outnumber the 1st and 2nd.

tapestrybabe

01-30-2003, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jan 31 2003, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by tapestrybabe@Jan 31 2003, 05:32 AM

so like, as an east asian, a korean... i have no problems thinking that the south easts asians... are kinda like 'my people'-- falling under the same umbrella as me...
Again, I am not attacking you at all, so please don't get angry.

That viewpoint is very very unkorean.

Right...
my view point doesnt come from my korean point of view...
but my ASIAN-AMERICAN point of view...

BeTheReds

01-30-2003, 11:16 PM

Do you feel that Pakistani-Americans are your people?

(Kinda related to the topic of another thread)

I just want the viewpoint of someone who believes in the pan-asian identity.

edit: I see you answered this in the other thread. sorry i didn't read first.

tapestrybabe

01-30-2003, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jan 31 2003, 02:16 AM
Do you feel that Pakistani-Americans are your people?

(Kinda related to the topic of another thread)

I just want the viewpoint of someone who believes in the pan-asian identity.

edit: I see you answered this in the other thread. sorry i didn't read first.
their asian too!
and in AMERICA...
south, south east, east asians or whatever...
i feel we all have something in common..
that ASIAN AMERICAN identity... whether its admitted or not...

and i mean, c'mon... dont tell me yw is gonna discriminate working on a campaigne.. just cuz a person is south asian or from a different sector... the mainstream already discriminates... so i dont see why we asian americans should have to discriminate amongst one another as well...

achtungbaby

01-30-2003, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jan 30 2003, 07:25 PM
cuz the development of any identity which includes such a large number of people who happen to be racially Asian but have at best a tenuous connection to Asian culture, leads the people involved in the identity to think they have some kind of monopoly on what it means to be an Asian in America - identifying with their group and taking on its group markers. the majority surpressing the minority.
Nope. Those might be one person's unfortunate experiences but they don't speak to everyone's.

AliBabaIncorporated

01-30-2003, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 31 2003, 02:33 AM
Nope. Those might be one person's unfortunate experiences but they don't speak to everyone's.
so basically, when an AA experiences the discrimination or exclusion from a white, it points to all sorts of underlying institutional racism deeply embedded in the structure of society, but when someone experiences exclusion from an AA, it's his unfortunate personal experience that's just a fact of life cuz he ran into some bad apples ...

achtungbaby

01-30-2003, 11:41 PM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jan 30 2003, 07:37 PM
yeah, but at some time you reach the point of diminishing returns ... any benefits you gain by complaining and protesting are counteracted by the tension and worsening inter-group relations which result from protesting. and it's impossible to completely eliminate the different treatment based on race or misunderstandings between groups which are easily visually distinguishable, just due to human nature.
Wow, you're so right. Why were we bitching in the first place?!?:)

I suggest we just sit in the corner instead.

achtungbaby

01-30-2003, 11:43 PM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jan 30 2003, 11:40 PM
so basically, when an AA experiences the discrimination or exclusion from a white, it points to all sorts of underlying institutional racism deeply embedded in the structure of society, but when someone experiences exclusion from an AA, it's his unfortunate personal experience that's just a fact of life cuz he ran into some bad apples ...
Yep!

AliBabaIncorporated

01-30-2003, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 31 2003, 02:43 AM
Yep!
glad to see consistent moral standards are a big deal.

edit: i just realized I can no longer tell whether you're being sarcastic or not. whatever.

BeTheReds

01-30-2003, 11:48 PM

so basically, when an AA experiences the discrimination or exclusion from a white, it points to all sorts of underlying institutional racism deeply embedded in the structure of society, but when someone experiences exclusion from an AA, it's his unfortunate personal experience that's just a fact of life cuz he ran into some bad apples ...
Yea man, didn't you know? Full blooded Asians can do no wrong! They are incapable of being racist.

achtungbaby

01-30-2003, 11:49 PM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jan 30 2003, 11:46 PM
glad to see consistent moral standards are a big deal.

edit: i just realized I can no longer tell whether you're being sarcastic or not. whatever.
I'm being sarcastic. Lemme get this straight, you're questioning Asian Americans coming together because their moral standards are not as perfect as you'd like them to be?

Get used to it. It's an imperfect world. We can work as much as we can to correct this, but within reason.

achtungbaby

01-30-2003, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jan 30 2003, 11:48 PM
Yea man, didn't you know? Full blooded Asians can do no wrong! They are incapable of being racist.
I get the distinct impression that you both are embittered about...stuff. I apologize if YW or its members or myself have somehow deepened this very apparent bitterness or frustration, but speaking for myself, that certainly was never the intent. Maybe I'm missing something, but...I've never questioned where either of you belong, nor have I ever tried to minimize the actions of other Asians onto you (until right now, maybe).

AliBabaIncorporated

01-30-2003, 11:57 PM

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 31 2003, 02:49 AM
Lemme get this straight, you're questioning Asian Americans coming together because their moral standards are not as perfect as you'd like them to be?
more like cuz the "Asian American Identity" threatens two things I actually care about ... personal safety/social development of mixed race kids, and the preservation of actual Asian culture and language in the US. and likely in the future I'll end up with 3/4 asian kids ... who look mostly asian ... do I want them growing up into this kind of identity?

BeTheReds

01-31-2003, 12:04 AM

The only things that I am really frustrated about is the fact that many politically aware asian americans will complain about racism without acknowledging that there is a double standard. Or if they do acknowledge it, they think that they are justified in doing so in retaliation to the imperfect society in which we live.

BeTheReds

01-31-2003, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jan 31 2003, 07:57 AM
more like cuz the "Asian American Identity" threatens two things I actually care about ... personal safety/social development of mixed race kids, and the preservation of actual Asian culture and language in the US. and likely in the future I'll end up with 3/4 asian kids ... who look mostly asian ... do I want them growing up into this kind of identity?
I can't say I really care about either of the two things that you listed, but I too am likely to have kids who look mostly asian, and I don't want them to learn that it is okay to descriminate against the majority because they are the minority. I also don't want them to think that people who look exactly like them are the only people they should consider as potential friends.

MellowDrama

01-31-2003, 12:11 AM

Burn baby burn!

(Flames get higher!)

:ph34r:

achtungbaby

01-31-2003, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jan 30 2003, 11:57 PM
more like cuz the "Asian American Identity" threatens two things I actually care about ... personal safety/social development of mixed race kids, and the preservation of actual Asian culture and language in the US. and likely in the future I'll end up with 3/4 asian kids ... who look mostly asian ... do I want them growing up into this kind of identity?
Okay...now we're getting somewhere. I don't see why you see these things as mutually exclusive. It's one of the reasons why I originally approached Hello_Hapa about starting a hapa forum, because from my experiences as an American-born Korean, there are all sorts of things that need to be worked out and discussed, and figured it's that much more so for mixed Asians. From my personal experiences, growing up in LA, going to UC Irvine, I never saw the latent racism you and undoubtedly many other mixed Asians have experienced, and it's been with some amazement (and I'm not being sarcastic here) to hear about your stories.

But again, I personally don't see them as mutually exclusive. Is the agenda for Asian America perfect? Far from it. In fact, it's far from solid, more dynamic if anything.

BeTheReds

01-31-2003, 01:25 AM

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 31 2003, 08:11 AM
Okay...now we're getting somewhere. I don't see why you see these things as mutually exclusive. It's one of the reasons why I originally approached Hello_Hapa about starting a hapa forum, because from my experiences as an American-born Korean, there are all sorts of things that need to be worked out and discussed, and figured it's that much more so for mixed Asians. From my personal experiences, growing up in LA, going to UC Irvine, I never saw the latent racism you and undoubtedly many other mixed Asians have experienced, and it's been with some amazement (and I'm not being sarcastic here) to hear about your stories.

But again, I personally don't see them as mutually exclusive. Is the agenda for Asian America perfect? Far from it. In fact, it's far from solid, more dynamic if anything.
I ahev to say that for the most part, in my experience, the racism is not very latent and obvious. It's subtle, sometimes subtle enough that it would be hard to prove. There are of course extremes, such as my experience in korea-town, VA, and Eric's experience from walking out of a party in college, but from what I have seen, no one here on the east coast is going to be outwardly racist. But when you are at a party, and everyone keeps staring at you, and some people ask why you're there, you feel like you don't belong. When they figure out your background, and they say... "you know.. you don't look like you're Korean..." How are you supposed to answer that? Lately I have been saying "OH really? are you SURE?" or, "Sorry, as a fetus I tried, but you know how genetics is..." And then your ethnicity becomes the subject of the conversation with everyone when really all you want is to be treated like a normal person like everyone else there at the party, and not thought of as the white guy who is here because he is friends with so and so. This combined with... "the stare" which I am sure Eric is familliar with this.

SunWuKong

01-31-2003, 06:24 AM

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jan 31 2003, 04:25 AM
Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 31 2003, 08:11 AM
Okay...now we're getting somewhere.  I don't see why you see these things as mutually exclusive.  It's one of the reasons why I originally approached Hello_Hapa about starting a hapa forum, because from my experiences as an American-born Korean, there are all sorts of things that need to be worked out and discussed, and figured it's that much more so for mixed Asians.  From my personal experiences, growing up in LA, going to UC Irvine, I never saw the latent racism you and undoubtedly many other mixed Asians have experienced, and it's been with some amazement (and I'm not being sarcastic here) to hear about your stories.

But again, I personally don't see them as mutually exclusive.  Is the agenda for Asian America perfect?  Far from it.  In fact, it's far from solid, more dynamic if anything.
I ahev to say that for the most part, in my experience, the racism is not very latent and obvious. It's subtle, sometimes subtle enough that it would be hard to prove. There are of course extremes, such as my experience in korea-town, VA, and Eric's experience from walking out of a party in college, but from what I have seen, no one here on the east coast is going to be outwardly racist. But when you are at a party, and everyone keeps staring at you, and some people ask why you're there, you feel like you don't belong. When they figure out your background, and they say... "you know.. you don't look like you're Korean..." How are you supposed to answer that? Lately I have been saying "OH really? are you SURE?" or, "Sorry, as a fetus I tried, but you know how genetics is..." And then your ethnicity becomes the subject of the conversation with everyone when really all you want is to be treated like a normal person like everyone else there at the party, and not thought of as the white guy who is here because he is friends with so and so. This combined with... "the stare" which I am sure Eric is familliar with this.
i'm not trying to lighten the obvious acts of racism that mixed asians have experienced, but you know, some of the "subtle" forms of discrimination to mixed asians you're talking about, like saying "you don't look asian", and similar comments or acts are really not meant to discriminate. yeah from what i've read in the hapa forum those comments can sting, and personally i've never said something like that to a mixed person, but really, i can understand why people would say something like that and i don't see ill-intent in it. to me, that's just along the same lines as white people saying "your english is so good." i don't think that's discrimination, i just see it as someone not knowing that those comments are annoying.

SunWuKong

01-31-2003, 06:28 AM

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 31 2003, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jan 30 2003, 11:46 PM
glad to see consistent moral standards are a big deal.

edit: i just realized I can no longer tell whether you're being sarcastic or not. whatever.
I'm being sarcastic. Lemme get this straight, you're questioning Asian Americans coming together because their moral standards are not as perfect as you'd like them to be?
no, he's questioning your contradictory logic of attributing racism that full-blooded asian americans experience from whites to racist trends in american society, while attributing racism that mixed asian americans experience from full-blooded asian americans to isolated incidents.

SunWuKong

01-31-2003, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 31 2003, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jan 30 2003, 11:57 PM
more like cuz the "Asian American Identity" threatens two things I actually care about ... personal safety/social development of mixed race kids, and the preservation of actual Asian culture and language in the US. and likely in the future I'll end up with 3/4 asian kids ... who look mostly asian ... do I want them growing up into this kind of identity?
Okay...now we're getting somewhere. I don't see why you see these things as mutually exclusive.
i agree.
but there's no need to reply with sarcasm when people are airing out their grievances about the asian american identity.

achtungbaby

01-31-2003, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 31 2003, 06:28 AM
no, he's questioning your contradictory logic of attributing racism that full-blooded asian americans experience from whites to racist trends in american society, while attributing racism that mixed asian americans experience from full-blooded asian americans to isolated incidents.
As I said before, I was being sarcastic.

Essentially his argument is this: Asian Americans are being hypocritical by advancing some agenda that is inherently exclusive or even racist.

Mine is this: it's not perfect.

achtungbaby

01-31-2003, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 31 2003, 06:34 AM
but there's no need to reply with sarcasm when people are airing out their grievances about the asian american identity.
To which I apologized for. But I have just as much right to be frustrated by arguments that can easily be perceived as obstructionist.

BeTheReds

02-02-2003, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 31 2003, 02:24 PM

i'm not trying to lighten the obvious acts of racism that mixed asians have experienced, but you know, some of the "subtle" forms of discrimination to mixed asians you're talking about, like saying "you don't look asian", and similar comments or acts are really not meant to discriminate. yeah from what i've read in the hapa forum those comments can sting, and personally i've never said something like that to a mixed person, but really, i can understand why people would say something like that and i don't see ill-intent in it. to me, that's just along the same lines as white people saying "your english is so good." i don't think that's discrimination, i just see it as someone not knowing that those comments are annoying.
There are differences though. In most urban metropolitan cities, only the stupid or old white people will say "your English is so good." Most of the people who say this to you, you wouldn't want to interact with any more than you have to.

When someone Asian learns my background, they should just say... Oh, I see. As that should clear up everything for them, questions as to why I am there etc... Saying that I don't look Asian is stating something VERY VERY obvious.

Some of them even phrase it... "You know you don't look very Asian, right?"
Or others "Are you SURE?"

It's fucking rediculous. What kind of response do they want from this?

You can respond to people who say your english is so good, by either explaining the situation, or by saying "wow, so is yours!". That gets most people thinking.

Rogmok

04-29-2003, 05:54 AM

I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet, but what do people think about the term asian american?? Does the term adequately describe and represent a people group that share some a similar culture/history/ethnicity?

or is a social contruct created by majority culture that lumps the "miscillaneous" skin color people together?

VV o n g B a

04-29-2003, 07:52 AM

these links cover some of the ground u discuss.

http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?ac...itical+identity (http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=833&hl=political+identity)

http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?ac...itical+identity (http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=4743&hl=political+identity)

ChinaLama

04-29-2003, 11:11 AM

merged. thanks wb.

BeTheReds

04-29-2003, 05:26 PM

This argument is tired.

Anyway, look at other communities. African-Americans for instance.

African Americans who are the descendents of slaves, and African Americans who are African immigrants or the descendants of African immigrants have totally different needs, socially, politically, and otherwise. Neither group really can acknowledge cultural similarity with the other. Politically it would almost be impossible to unite.

Perhaps the same argument can't be applied to Asians, but the lumping together of Sub-Continental and Yellow people is a mistake.

If we are going to divide people into different races, then this is an obvious fallacy. Not only are the people's physical appearances drastically different, their culture, languages, religions, and food habits are totally different. If we are looking for political strength, then why don't we consider Native Americans and Hispanics of Native American descent as Asians? I mean, they did come across the land bridge from Siberia did they not? More power!

DaBestSpooner

05-01-2003, 01:54 PM

I'm chinese muthafucker!

sOKaLiBoY

05-01-2003, 02:04 PM

when i'm asked my ethnicity i say japanese/korean. when i'm asked my nationality i say american. i never use the term asian american.

AngryABCGirl

05-01-2003, 04:46 PM

I always just thought that the term Asian-American meant that you were an Asian living and working in America, at the same time you can be Chinese/Korean/etc. I tend to not think of it as anything else but a blanket term for Asians living in the US.

If you ever want me to get specific I say Chinese or Taiwanese - American, or just Taiwanese or Chinese. I usually don't say ABC or words like fob because something about that sounds really childish to me. I dunno why, maybe because I've never heard an adult say that, but that might be because all the Asians I know who are adults don't speak English most of the time.

SunWuKong

05-02-2003, 07:46 AM

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@May 1 2003, 07:46 PM
I usually don't say ABC or words like fob because something about that sounds really childish to me. I dunno why, maybe because I've never heard an adult say that, but that might be because all the Asians I know who are adults don't speak English most of the time.
i say it. :P

ChinaLama

05-02-2003, 07:47 AM

YW has taught me myriad ways to make fun of ppl, like SOB and BOB. :)

AngryABCGirl

05-02-2003, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 2 2003, 06:46 AM
i say it. :P
Wow, you are too hip and happening. :lol:

What's a BOB?

SunWuKong

05-02-2003, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@May 2 2003, 06:19 PM
Wow, you are too hip and happening. :lol:

What's a BOB?
Back On the Boat
that's me
except now i'm back in the US

Faithless

05-31-2003, 01:44 AM

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jul 26 2002, 11:11 AM
By Steve Sailer
UPI National Correspondent

LOS ANGELES, July 11 (UPI) -- Who exactly is an "Asian-American?" The U.S. government's official racial definition is coming in for criticism as being both too narrow (because it leaves out West Asians, such as Arabs, Israelis, and Iranians) and too broad (because it clumps together the East Asians of China and the Philippines with the quite different South Asians of India and Pakistan).

The central issue is the status of South Asians. Currently, the government brackets South Asians with East Asians in an artificial race called "Asian," rather than grouping South Asians alongside West Asians in the Caucasian category.

(read more) (http://melbourne.myacen.com/~yellowwo/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=97&mode=thread&order=1&thold=-1)
Back to your original post, I think the term Asian is too broad. Not to be demeaning but West Asians just don't seem like Asians. Either that or non-West Asians are really in a class themselves.

Just look at Arabs, Iraqis, or Iranians -- where's the epicanthic fold? They seem more Italian / Mediteranian.

azizgilani

08-06-2003, 05:54 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (achtungbaby @ Jan 30 2003, 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>but building a pan-Asian coalition, as Andrew pointed out, is partially in response to mainstream America's broad categorization of us.[/b][/quote]
I hope you understand the hypocrosy of your argument about needing an "asian-american" identity to combat broad categorizations.

Its correct to assume that racists/ethnists don't take the time to distinguish between Koreans and Japanese people. But the also don't distinguish between blacks and hispanics. Supremacists understand only two types of people, their identity group and everyone else.

You can delude yourself into thinking that asians are unique in their victimization, but doing so would ignore the all too real victimizations of everyone else.

If the people of Yellowworld were serious about fighting stereotypes and categorization they would have never started yellowworld in the first place. They would have joined advocacy groups that fight the concept of racism, without buying into its categorizations.

Racism against any group is wrong, how is reinforcing (and in this case building) arbitrary identities going to help?

sandra

08-06-2003, 10:28 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (azizgilani @ Aug 6 2003, 04:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Racism against any group is wrong, how is reinforcing (and in this case building) arbitrary identities going to help? [/b][/quote]
Interesting. And what advocacy groups would those be? NAACP or MALDEF? Perhaps NOW?

SunWuKong

08-06-2003, 10:29 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (azizgilani @ Aug 6 2003, 08:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If the people of Yellowworld were serious about fighting stereotypes and categorization they would have never started yellowworld in the first place. They would have joined advocacy groups that fight the concept of racism, without buying into its categorizations. [/b][/quote]
i'm not sure i understand what you're saying. the fact that we even identify as Asian is a bad thing?

shy

08-07-2003, 09:32 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Jan 30 2003, 02:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> but don't you think that insisting on using racism as a binding core for asian america is self-destructive? [/b][/quote]
that's a good point SWK.

to be honest, i never gave much thought about the term 'asian american'.

probably because when i'm describing myself, i usually say 'chinese canadian'.

i do, however, prefer 'asian' over 'oriental'.

i'll have to think about this some more... :confused:

azizgilani

08-07-2003, 09:47 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Aug 6 2003, 09:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> i'm not sure i understand what you're saying. the fact that we even identify as Asian is a bad thing? [/b][/quote]
Identifying with being "asian" isn't the problem. Identifying with any group isn't necessarily bad. But what is going on here is very different.

Yellowworld bills itself as:
"a news and debate forum for informed asian youth; a portal dedicated to the cultivation of a social and political asian consciousness"

Thats very different from self-identification with a particular group. Yellowworld seeks to buld a group social and political consciousness linking:
"east asian, south asian, south east asian, asian youth, asian american activists, and campus groups"

Thats where I start to object. Yellowworld is essentially trying to build a socio-political movement built on a geographic/ethical grouping that its own members grant is "arbitrary" Yellowworld isn't identifying with an identity, its creating one.

The "political asian consciousness" is something I totally don't understand. To justify any political grouping you need a set of causes that:
1: that all of your members believe in
2: that only your members believe in (mutually exclusive)

Although you can point at a few causes that east and south asians believe in, these definitely aren't mutually exclusive to other identities. The one I always hear about is racism. But asians aren't the only victims of racism, hence my comment about joining groups built around a common objective, instead of a common race. If there are causes unique to this arbitrary group, please let me know. That isn't some rhetorical question, I really want to know what they are.

Until then I don't see why we need this "consciousness" Why not create a consciousness around black hair? Or having type A blood? I am sure if we could only group these people together we could accomplish a lot in this world.

>:^|

08-07-2003, 09:59 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (azizgilani @ Aug 7 2003, 08:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Although you can point at a few causes that east and south asians believe in, these definitely aren't mutually exclusive to other identities. The one I always hear about is racism. But asians aren't the only victims of racism, hence my comment about joining groups built around a common objective, instead of a common race. If there are causes unique to this arbitrary group, please let me know. That isn't some rhetorical question, I really want to know what they are.[/b][/quote]
So my questions would be:

1. What are you doing here?
2. What are you doing about racism?
3. What are you accomplishing?

I already know the answers for many of the long-time yellowworld members.

shy

08-07-2003, 10:31 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (>:^| @ Aug 7 2003, 08:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> So my questions would be:

1. What are you doing here?
2. What are you doing about racism?
3. What are you accomplishing?

I already know the answers for many of the long-time yellowworld members. [/b][/quote]
excellent... yes... i'd like to know what this person's answer is to the above questions.

Thats where I start to object. Yellowworld is essentially trying to build a socio-political movement built on a geographic/ethical grouping that its own members grant is "arbitrary" Yellowworld isn't identifying with an identity, its creating one.

why can't an asian online community do both? is it so bad create an environment that tries it's best to create a common area for many asians to identify with?

and while doing that, is it not almost essential that one would need to create a new indentity in order to reinforce such an entity that the members here work hard to try and uphold? isn't the sum greater then all it's parts?

why would you be so against a place like that, as a result of creating more conscienceness, evolves out a somewhat new indentity? not one that is mean to be threatening or over-powering. but isn't every community entitled to it's own identity? doesn't that distingush itself from other communities?

SunWuKong

08-07-2003, 10:51 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (azizgilani @ Aug 7 2003, 12:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The one I always hear about is racism. But asians aren't the only victims of racism, hence my comment about joining groups built around a common objective, instead of a common race. If there are causes unique to this arbitrary group, please let me know. That isn't some rhetorical question, I really want to know what they are. [/b][/quote]
and what's wrong with Asians concentrating on fighting racism directed at Asians? there are issues that are unique to Asian people, and then there are issues that Asian people share with non-Asian people. i don't see how that matters. nobody here denies that non-Asian people are victims of racism. we only choose to concentrate on Asian empowerment first. sorry if that rubs you the wrong way.

RasFarengi

08-07-2003, 11:36 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Aug 7 2003, 12:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> there are issues that are unique to Asian people, and then there are issues that Asian people share with non-Asian people. i don't see how that matters. nobody here denies that non-Asian people are victims of racism. we only choose to concentrate on Asian empowerment first. sorry if that rubs you the wrong way. [/b][/quote]
Can you name some of these unique issues?

SunWuKong

08-07-2003, 11:50 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 7 2003, 02:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Can you name some of these unique issues? [/b][/quote]
Marginalisation - Asian Americans are constantly being ignored in the shadow of the greater black-white relations issues. they are grouped together with blacks when it so fits groups like NAACP, and they are grouped together with whites when it so fits groups like the Republican Party. in reality, they are nothing like whites or blacks.

Affirmative Action - there is a lot of talk about how Affirmative Action is needed in higher education because of discrimination against minorities in the acceptance process. however, Affirmative Action policies have actually worked against Asian Americans, such that we have to have higher numerical scores to get in to certain schools, whereas blacks and Hispanics may get in with lower numerical scores.

Media Representation - there is a lack of fair media representation of Asian American people in popular media. Asian American men are, more often than not, emasculated, and Asian American women are exoticised. and no, blacks do not share the same issue because there is already plenty of media representation for black people. just the number of black sitcoms on TV is a good indication of this.

Solidarity - Asian Americans face linguistic and cultural barriers within their own demographics across different ethnicities. however, it is obvious that American society groups us together just the same, and we experience very similar forms of racism. there needs to be an effort to facilitate more communication between Asian Americans of different ethnicities.

should i go on?

Napoleon Chynamite

08-07-2003, 11:56 AM

Additionally, despite the fact that others can argue that the issues SWK stated above are not exclusive to Asian Americans and also apply to other immigrant groups (i.e. misrepresentation from the media, language barriers, etc), it is most important to note that we are friggin' grouped together in the first place, the Asian/Pacific Islander immigration groups and the generations which follow are generalized and seen as one by popular culture. Policies, attitudes, prejudices, and any type of negative or positive effects directed towards minority groups affect usually clusters that are identified to be 'uniform' or 'the same' in American society. Thus, any type of discrimination or misrepresentation a Chinese American faces in the US will more or less be very similar or be much more similar to the discrimination and representation that a Vietnamese American faces than the hardships and prejudice that, say, Nigerian or Hispanic or Eastern European immigrant groups face. Just to list an example, the misrepresentation and stereotypes of blacks in the media is a media issue that is very different (i.e. blacks may have more representation than Asians but the portrayals are harmful and reinforce generalizations) from the beef that many Asian Americans have with the media's portrayals of Asian people.

SunWuKong

08-07-2003, 11:59 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FrozenPizza @ Aug 7 2003, 02:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Additionally, despite the fact that others can argue that the issues SWK stated above are not exclusive to Asian Americans and also apply to other immigrant groups (i.e. misrepresentation from the media, language barriers, etc), it is most important to note that we are friggin' grouped together in the first place, the Asian/Pacific Islander immigration groups and the generations which follow are generalized and seen as one by popular culture. Policies, attitudes, prejudices, and any type of negative or positive effects directed towards minority groups affect usually clusters that are identified to be 'uniform' or 'the same' in American society. Thus, any type of discrimination or misrepresentation a Chinese American faces in the US will more or less be very similar or be much more similar to the discrimination and representation that a Vietnamese American faces than the hardships and prejudice that, say, Nigerian or Hispanic or Eastern European immigrant groups face. [/b][/quote]
and also, i'd like to note that while most of us do care about issues pertaining to other racial groups of people, many of us simply choose to give more attention to our own racial group. i am Asian. my family is Asian. most of my friends are Asian. what group do you think i'd care more about?

shy

08-07-2003, 12:05 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Aug 7 2003, 10:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> and also, i'd like to note that while most of us do care about issues pertaining to other racial groups of people, many of us simply choose to give more attention to our own racial group. i am Asian. my family is Asian. most of my friends are Asian. what group do you think i'd care more about? [/b][/quote]
let me guess...

asians?

i kill me. :dance:

RasFarengi

08-07-2003, 12:16 PM

SWK and FRozenPizza:

So basically white people have grouped you together and defined who you are, and you will accept that and work within the frame work of what white people set down for you to fight against what you see as bias and discrimination?

Basically whites say Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Somoan, whatever are all the same...so you work under that definition instead and may even add to that stereotype by grouping together into some Pan-Asian moverment, instead of fighting to be recognized as how you should be seen, individual ethnicities, with individual languages, cultural, and historical backgrouds. Yeah, that sounds real American too, jump on the race wagon...that's most important right?

Okay...

Napoleon Chynamite

08-07-2003, 12:23 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 7 2003, 11:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> SWK and FRozenPizza:

So basically white people have grouped you together and defined who you are, and you will accept that and work within the frame work of what white people set down for you to fight against what you see as bias and discrimination?

Okay... [/b][/quote]
Ok Ras, since you're a practical man, don't you think that it's 'practical' to group together and fight against the issues and problems that all Asian Americans have in common? Other minority groups who do not have the same problems are naturally not the first people that Asian Americans looking to make a difference will choose to identify with. It's not our fault that we were grouped together, regardless of whether we see ourselves as a group. Yet because we were grouped together, the problems we face as a result of this grouping are the same, so in turn we fight back as a group. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion. It has nothing to do with 'accepting' or 'surrendering to' the generalization of all Asian groups that has been placed upon us by society.

Nothing personal, but I would just have to say, if you are so against this idea of Asian American unity or any type of amassing together for any type of purpose or progress, wouldn't you be pretty much against forums such as YW? And if so, what is your real purpose here other than to challenge this idea or concept? And if you in fact do find some type of value in forums such as YW, wouldn't that contradict your whole idea of how bringing Asian Americans together for the sake of discussing and working together to fix or tackle problems is 'harmful' to American society and integration in the future? I know you have explained your reasons for coming to Asian American sites before in PM's and the like, but perhaps it is time for you to re-clarify or state, and do it publicly, since I'm sure a lot of people are interested as well.

RasFarengi

08-07-2003, 12:26 PM

Nothing personal, but I would just have to say, if you are so against this idea of Asian American unity or any type of amassing together for any type of purpose or progress, wouldn't you be pretty much against forums such as YW? And if so, what is your real purpose here other than to challenge this idea or concept? And if you in fact do find some type of value in forums such as YW, wouldn't that contradict your whole idea of how bringing Asian Americans together for the sake of discussing and working together to fix or tackle problems is 'harmful' to American society and integration in the future? I know you have explained your reasons for coming to Asian American sites before in PM's and the like, but perhaps it is time for you to re-clarify or state, and do it publicly, since I'm sure a lot of people are interested as well.

I guess you can ask the same question of Yuji and ALilbab...

knowledge is always valuable, any knowledge, doesn't matter if you agree with it or not.

Still I think there are some interesting people here, and their are people here of multiple ethnicities so that I can discuss certain issues from a different perspective, and get an understand of how various Asian ethnicities in America of different generations live and think. I mean I could go to individual ethnic sites, but you are all right here, so...it is practical doesn't mean I have to support some pan-race movement or see value in it...and most of my posts are not challeges to anything...very few of my posts on this board (taken in totality) have anything to do with this issue.

Napoleon Chynamite

08-07-2003, 12:31 PM

P.S. I'll also give you the straight-up truth, but I think I posted this more than a few times both here and on other forums already. I don't really use YW as a major tool in order to fight discrimination, hatred, or bias towards Asian Americans. I am basically here just to interact and sometimes have fun and learn something interesting once in a while. Despite being Asian American, I grew up in an area that was fairly tolerant, and perhaps because of this I had very little trouble being accepted by anyone. Maybe these people were just good at being fake, maybe they weren't. The point is that I never felt that being 'Asian' was any type of real detriment in American society and the discrimination and 'glass ceiling' never hit me full in the face, so it is hard fro me to identify with a lot of problems that people complain about on these sites such as IR-dating, affirmative action working against me, etc. Yet I do not object to people who constructively discuss and express their concern for these issues because I know that for some, the issues and problems are very real and hit very close to home, depending upon the environment of their upbringing. The fact that I personally have not seen these issues of concern affect me in any huge way does not mean these problems either do not exist or are not worthy of discussion. I do not object to, scoff, or stand in people's way if they do want to take initiative and band together as Asian Americans to fight certain obstacles that the individuals regard as daunting or significant. As long as conversation is carried out without pointless flaming, bloated egos, and foolish pride, it is all good and fine with me when it comes to Asian American activism.

Napoleon Chynamite

08-07-2003, 12:34 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 7 2003, 11:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Nothing personal, but I would just have to say, if you are so against this idea of Asian American unity or any type of amassing together for any type of purpose or progress, wouldn't you be pretty much against forums such as YW? And if so, what is your real purpose here other than to challenge this idea or concept? And if you in fact do find some type of value in forums such as YW, wouldn't that contradict your whole idea of how bringing Asian Americans together for the sake of discussing and working together to fix or tackle problems is 'harmful' to American society and integration in the future? I know you have explained your reasons for coming to Asian American sites before in PM's and the like, but perhaps it is time for you to re-clarify or state, and do it publicly, since I'm sure a lot of people are interested as well.

I guess you can ask the same question of Yuji and ALilbab...

knowledge is always valuable, any knowledge, doesn't matter if you agree with it or not. [/b][/quote]
I don't know about AliBaba, but I talk to Yujin on a regular basis and I have asked him this question before and we have talked about it lots. My impression is that it's not like he does not agree with Asian American activism, he disagrees with how a lot of Asian American activists carry out their campaigns and activities to serve their purpose. He also disagrees with many of the attitudes of Asian Americans who carry this fake Azn Pryde facade, not least because he has been the brunt of this shitty attitude. I don't speak for him though, and he is free to put his own input here if and when he reads this post. Anyways, Yujin's perspective is not a perspective that says that Asian Americans should not group together in order to fight issues of discrimination or other similar issues of concern in the U.S.

RasFarengi

08-07-2003, 12:44 PM

Yet I do not object to people who constructively discuss and express their concern for these issues because I know that for some, the issues and problems are very real and hit very close to home, depending upon the environment of their upbringing.

Well yes I know these things are real. I have never denied that, to me they are obvious if you pay attention. I don't know how you grew up, but I think many black people are sensitive, maybe hypersensitive to racial issues, and sometimes they maybe wrong, but not always...I know I see things in a very different way than some oblivious white boys I know, maybe because my community has lived with this shit for hundreds of years, and I see it with Asians too and Latinos, not just blacks...dynamics are different.

I just think that there has to be a better way. I don't think more groupism, more purposeful segregation, more race initiatives, is the real answer, that is like putting a band aide on something that needs stitches...all of this won't stop, it will never stop until we evolve beyond this...adding to the system will not fix it, it is already flawed, some things have to be destroyed or pushed to the point of collapses before real change can happen, and I don't see another Pan-racial group, as the answer to the cause of these problems, the root cause.

There has to be a better way, and I think if people dedicated (all people in this country of every race and ethnicity) spent even half the time thinking about how to find a better way for us all, instead of focusing on mine and my peoples we would be a lot better off as a nation.

Napoleon Chynamite

08-07-2003, 12:51 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 7 2003, 11:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> There has to be a better way, and I think if people dedicated (all people in this country of every race and ethnicity) spent even half the time thinking about how to find a better way for us all, instead of focusing on mine and my peoples we would be a lot better off as a nation. [/b][/quote]
Hey man, I totally agree with you. Where are the Asian American activists when the Jewish community gets screwed? Where are their signs, why aren't they picketing? Why is it only Jewish people picketing when Jewish people get fucked over? Where are the voices of Nigerian or Hispanic immigrants when the Chinese American or Korean American or Vietnamese American community is taking it up the ass? In an ideal world, you wouldn't hafta worry about your own problems because ideally there would be other people caring enough to worry about you, carrying enough to put in effort to solve your problems so that you could also afford the time to help someone else solve their problems. Of course, in reality, this is cynical but it just doesn't work that way. The world is not a gigantic mutual masturbation session. Everyone has to jack themselves off. Sometimes you just gotta worry about your own shit. I'm not saying it's right, it's just the way it is sometimes, you know? It's 'human nature' ;) There SHOULD be a better way, yes, I just don't know if a better way exists or is able to work.

RasFarengi

08-07-2003, 01:03 PM

Everyone has to jack themselves off. Sometimes you just gotta worry about your own shit. I'm not saying it's right, it's just the way it is sometimes, you know? It's 'human nature'  There SHOULD be a better way, yes, I just don't know if a better way exists or is able to work.

I agree with that, but I think that is due to the group oriented aspect of human nature, but I don't believe that their is somehting in us that makes us automatically group around race.

Humans can group around a lot of things, like religion, look at the Muslim extremist, they are of all different races, from white, Arab, black, Asian, etc..all standing together for a cause (yeah the cause is fucked, but)...

IN America we hold race up as the highest group or the most important...if we can change that, that is a big step to changing American society, and it is not impossible, but it will take time and a lot of effort to deprogram people.

Look at Japan and all the take we have done about that place. Race is definately not the defining factor. Many know and have complained Western white and even black foreigners are often treated bettter than other Asians...so black hair, yellow to tan skin, and eyefolds, is obviously not the most importan thing, it is ethnicity and nationality.

This tells me that this things are not set in stone they are can be moved.

SunWuKong

08-07-2003, 01:43 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 7 2003, 03:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> SWK and FRozenPizza:

So basically white people have grouped you together and defined who you are, and you will accept that and work within the frame work of what white people set down for you to fight against what you see as bias and discrimination?

Basically whites say Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Somoan, whatever are all the same...so you work under that definition instead and may even add to that stereotype by grouping together into some Pan-Asian moverment, instead of fighting to be recognized as how you should be seen, individual ethnicities, with individual languages, cultural, and historical backgrouds. Yeah, that sounds real American too, jump on the race wagon...that's most important right?

Okay... [/b][/quote]
i can't speak for anybody else, but i am personally interested in Asian cultures, in particular Chinese culture and East Asian cultures, and my interest wanes as you go down south in Asia or as the Chinese population in the region dilutes. and my circle of friends actually reflect this.

most of my friends are actually Chinese, but this is the reason i socialise with other Asian Americans. and no, most of my friends aren't Asian kids that grew up in the mid-West or something like that. most of my friends are actually either 1.5 generation Asian Americans or plain fobby people. this demographic of people are the group of people i care most about, and it affects my political views.

i asked you in another thread whether or not you have a problem with Asian Americans socialising with each other across ethnic lines. you said that you don't have a problem with this. or rather, you did not confirm that you have a problem with it. maybe you should ask yourself what you really have a problem with. do you truly expect a group of people to not give more attention and care to their own group? to me, it's only natural.

shy

08-07-2003, 01:47 PM

for me, i think it's natural that people are more interested in their own ethnic groups... and i think i categorize myself as one of these people.

i don't think there's anything wrong w/ it. so long as these people are still aware and care about what goes on in other parts of the world.

1.5 generationers are those whose parents were born elsewhere, but they themselves were born in n. america, right?

RasFarengi

08-07-2003, 01:50 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Aug 7 2003, 03:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
i can't speak for anybody else, but i am personally interested in Asian cultures, in particular Chinese culture and East Asian cultures, and my interest wanes as you go down south in Asia or as the Chinese population in the region dilutes. and my circle of friends actually reflect this.

most of my friends are actually Chinese, but this is the reason i socialise with other Asian Americans. and no, most of my friends aren't Asian kids that grew up in the mid-West or something like that. most of my friends are actually either 1.5 generation Asian Americans or plain fobby people. this demographic of people are the group of people i care most about, and it affects my political views. [/b][/quote]
That was interesting, but you missed my point, I think Frozen got it, read his thread.

What you said was interesting, because many of the people on this board are not FOB types...like Frozen Pizza...to me your group and his group really aren't even the same.

That's like me saying I am for Pan-black unity...but then say...well you know I only care about the countries were Hausa live, NIgeria, and Niger..mostly...I'm especially not intersted in people that are not from Africa like African Americans or Carribeans, but hey...we all look alike so I just jump on the bandwagon anyway...

Okay...

Napoleon Chynamite

08-07-2003, 01:51 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 7 2003, 12:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Everyone has to jack themselves off. Sometimes you just gotta worry about your own shit. I'm not saying it's right, it's just the way it is sometimes, you know? It's 'human nature' There SHOULD be a better way, yes, I just don't know if a better way exists or is able to work.

I agree with that, but I think that is due to the group oriented aspect of human nature, but I don't believe that their is somehting in us that makes us automatically group around race.

Humans can group around a lot of things, like religion, look at the Muslim extremist, they are of all different races, from white, Arab, black, Asian, etc..all standing together for a cause (yeah the cause is fucked, but)...

IN America we hold race up as the highest group or the most important...if we can change that, that is a big step to changing American society, and it is not impossible, but it will take time and a lot of effort to deprogram people.

Look at Japan and all the take we have done about that place. Race is definately not the defining factor. Many know and have complained Western white and even black foreigners are often treated bettter than other Asians...so black hair, yellow to tan skin, and eyefolds, is obviously not the most importan thing, it is ethnicity and nationality.

This tells me that this things are not set in stone they are can be moved. [/b][/quote]
I don't see how the situation in Japan matters in this case. Japan and China and Korea (or other more or less homogenous nations) is not the US. Of course race isn't the defining factor in Japan, there is pretty much only one racially as well as ethnically-defined group in Japan. Japan never touted itself as a country for immigrants to prosper in, and I don't need to get into history because I'm sure your Japanese history is better than mine. Friggin' everybody looks the same there, haha. I'm not sure how the Japanese in Japan divide or define people, by interests? political stance? social status or income status? hair dye color? (couldn't resist ;)) I dunno haha. You are just talking about Japanese reaction to visitors or tourists or guests to the country based upon Japanese thought as well as a strong modern history of American influence. Ditto Korea and China (excluding the 52+ minority groups who still are, proportionately, a very very small number). Like I said before, there should be a better way but there probably isn't. But feel free to come up with any new ideas for discussion besides the 'let's all assimilate' thing.

RasFarengi

08-07-2003, 01:51 PM

Shy:

for me, i think it's natural that people are more interested in their own ethnic groups... and i think i categorize myself as one of these people.

i don't think there's anything wrong w/ it. so long as these people are still aware and care about what goes on in other parts of the world.

1.5 generationers are those whose parents were born elsewhere, but they themselves were born in n. america, right?

That's natural...but that is not what we are discussion. Race does not equal ethnicity.

SunWuKong

08-07-2003, 01:53 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 7 2003, 03:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I just think that there has to be a better way.  I don't think more groupism, more purposeful segregation, more race initiatives, is the real answer, that is like putting a band aide on something that needs stitches...all of this won't stop, it will never stop until we evolve beyond this...adding to the system will not fix it, it is already flawed, some things have to be destroyed or pushed to the point of collapses before real change can happen, and I don't see another Pan-racial group, as the answer to the cause of these problems, the root cause.

There has to be a better way, and I think if people dedicated (all people in this country of every race and ethnicity) spent even half the time thinking about how to find a better way for us all, instead of focusing on mine and my peoples we would be a lot better off as a nation. [/b][/quote]
and once again, i would like to ask how any Asian coalition is against integration. i am not talking about some college kids having too much pride in their race (and hell, the ASA at my school had a black officer). are any of these groups against non-Asian people joining? do these groups advocate Asian people to stay away from non-Asian people?

or do you basically have a problem with Asian people congregating together?

SunWuKong

08-07-2003, 01:55 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shy @ Aug 7 2003, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> 1.5 generationers are those whose parents were born elsewhere, but they themselves were born in n. america, right? [/b][/quote]
that usually denotes people that had their childhood in Asia (or just outside the US/Canada), and then had the rest of their upbringing in the US/Canada.

RasFarengi

08-07-2003, 02:06 PM

SWK:

I'm not sure how much clearer I have to say it.

I see value in ethnic organizations, if they are promoting intergration, and some kind of cultural awareness, some historical stuff, whatever...even...yeah I can see that, and I think that is good. Ethinicity is real, very real, it includes a way of thinking, acting...basic cultural norms, shared history, language. This has to be discussed and delt with.

RACE is a social construct, it is artificial and serves no value accept to further divide people

I do not agree with groups based on "race" as a the sole uniting factor, because I think the very idea of race based organizations for the sake of racial unity is counter to the direction we should be going (which I have said many times before)...more racial division and finding new ways to group our self racially in the end adds to the problem, it will never fix the problem.

All the issues that you speak about on this board will not be solved by racial coalitions, somethings will be made better, sure, but most of them will never be, or their will be new issues, because the very dynamic is foul...it forms group mentalities, that may empower some, but also does not promote a environment conducive to decrease racism or discrimination, in fact it does the opposite. Anything that promotes groupism at that level based on superficial things, to my mind leaves a lot of room for mindless discrimination.

There is also a big differnece in socializing and forming racially based societies.

I have no problem with any people on earth socializing together...well okay maybe there are some men I don't want socializing with my wife. :D but you get the point.

SunWuKong

08-07-2003, 02:10 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 7 2003, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> SWK:

I'm not sure how much clearer I have to say it.

I see value in ethnic organizations, if they are promoting intergration, and some kind of cultural awareness, some historical stuff, whatever...even...yeah I can see that, and I think that is good. Ethinicity is real, very real, it includes a way of thinking, acting...basic cultural norms, shared history, language. This has to be discussed and delt with.

RACE is a social construct, it is artificial and serves no value accept to further divide people

I do not agree with groups based on "race" as a the sole uniting factor, because I think the very idea of race based organizations for the sake of racial unity is counter to the direction we should be going (which I have said many times before)...more racial division and finding new ways to group our self racially in the end adds to the problem, it will never fix the problem.

All the issues that you speak about on this board will not be solved by racial coalitions, somethings will be made better, sure, but most of them will never be, or their will be new issues, because the very dynamic is foul...it forms group mentalities, that may empower some, but also does not promote a environment conducive to decrease racism or discrimination, in fact it does the opposite. Anything that promotes groupism at that level based on superficial things, to my mind leaves a lot of room for mindless discrimination.

There is also a big differnece in socializing and forming racially based societies.

I have no problem with any people on earth socializing together...well okay maybe there are some men I don't want socializing with my wife. :D but you get the point. [/b][/quote]
so let's elaborate more.

you have no problem with people socalising with each other. so i assume you have no idea with a bunch of American-born Asian people, who have never lived in Asia, socialising together. but do you have a problem with them caring more about their own social group than other groups? again, i see this only as natural.

shy

08-07-2003, 02:40 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Aug 7 2003, 12:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> that usually denotes people that had their childhood in Asia (or just outside the US/Canada), and then had the rest of their upbringing in the US/Canada. [/b][/quote]
gotcha... i keep on forgetting. thanks.

achtungbaby

08-07-2003, 03:58 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 7 2003, 02:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>RACE is a social construct, it is artificial and serves no value accept to further divide people[/b][/quote]

If it's just our imagination, why is it often easy to point out the Asians from the non-Asians on this forum? Or is this some mass group spell that "Pan-Asia" has cast upon the rest of us?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 7 2003, 02:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I do not agree with groups based on "race" as a the sole uniting factor, because I think the very idea of race based organizations for the sake of racial unity is counter to the direction we should be going (which I have said many times before)...more racial division and finding new ways to group our self racially in the end adds to the problem, it will never fix the problem.[/b][/quote]

Ahhh, maybe it was here that you got tripped up. You see, most race-based organizations support racial unity but that isn't their unifying purpose. They congregate or meet to support the interests of their particular constituents. I mean, do people gather in mosques to celebrate religious freedom? No. They meet to worship their God. That doesn't mean Muslims are against Christians though, does it? Surely they can peacefully coexist, I mean, just take a glance at the wealth of history available of Christians and Muslims running down the beach, hand in hand, partners for life!

I believe it's time you owned up to your ideas and purged your faith -- for the good of the unity of this country. And please, don't even bother trying to argue the deep connections and parallels between the Koran and the Bible, it's clear that the majority of America knows which side they're on. You wanna talk about the backlash of whites...? Clearly the focus of their attention is fixed on Muslims -- Americans don't like them, and they should just learn to be good Christians if they're going to choose to remain in this Jehovah-fearing country.

sandra

08-07-2003, 04:12 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (azizgilani @ Aug 7 2003, 08:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Identifying with being "asian" isn't the problem. Identifying with any group isn't necessarily bad. But what is going on here is very different.

Yellowworld bills itself as:
"a news and debate forum for informed asian youth; a portal dedicated to the cultivation of a social and political asian consciousness"

Thats very different from self-identification with a particular group. Yellowworld seeks to buld a group social and political consciousness linking:
"east asian, south asian, south east asian, asian youth, asian american activists, and campus groups"

Thats where I start to object. Yellowworld is essentially trying to build a socio-political movement built on a geographic/ethical grouping that its own members grant is "arbitrary" Yellowworld isn't identifying with an identity, its creating one.

The "political asian consciousness" is something I totally don't understand. To justify any political grouping you need a set of causes that:
1: that all of your members believe in
2: that only your members believe in (mutually exclusive)

Although you can point at a few causes that east and south asians believe in, these definitely aren't mutually exclusive to other identities. The one I always hear about is racism. But asians aren't the only victims of racism, hence my comment about joining groups built around a common objective, instead of a common race. If there are causes unique to this arbitrary group, please let me know. That isn't some rhetorical question, I really want to know what they are.

Until then I don't see why we need this "consciousness" Why not create a consciousness around black hair? Or having type A blood? I am sure if we could only group these people together we could accomplish a lot in this world. [/b][/quote]
vincent chin. ever heard of him?

deez nuts

08-07-2003, 04:20 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (azizgilani @ Aug 7 2003, 11:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Or having type A blood? I am sure if we could only group these people together we could accomplish a lot in this world. [/b][/quote]
yeah those blood type A people face mad issues.

kimpossible

08-07-2003, 04:28 PM

Maybe I'm just cut from a lesser cloth but if Ras has his own black/Asian forums with its own agenda, which is black and Asian only and not integrated elsewise, how exactly does Yellowworld and its goals for political consciousness break the rules that seem to be okay for him?

I need someone smarter than me to understand the difference.

Isn't this AZN/Black Nationalism forum (http://pub8.ezboard.com/furbanchinafrm33) race based in grouping in the name of political and social struggles?

Napoleon Chynamite

08-07-2003, 04:40 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Hello_Hapa @ Aug 7 2003, 03:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Maybe I'm just cut from a lesser cloth but if Ras has his own black/Asian forums with its own agenda, which is black and Asian only and not integrated elsewise, how exactly does Yellowworld and its goals for political consciousness break the rules that seem to be okay for him?

I need someone smarter than me to understand the difference.

Isn't this AZN/Black Nationalism forum (http://pub8.ezboard.com/furbanchinafrm33) race based in grouping in the name of political and social struggles? [/b][/quote]
My guess is that Ras will justify this by saying that it's not confined to just members of one socially-constructed (redundant) race, and encourages interaction and the sharing of perspectives between the black race and the Asian race.

sandra

08-07-2003, 04:42 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 7 2003, 11:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> So basically white people have grouped you together and defined who you are, and you will accept that and work within the frame work of what white people set down for you to fight against what you see as bias and discrimination?

Basically whites say Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Somoan, whatever are all the same...so you work under that definition instead and may even add to that stereotype by grouping together into some Pan-Asian moverment, instead of fighting to be recognized as how you should be seen, individual ethnicities, with individual languages, cultural, and historical backgrouds. Yeah, that sounds real American too, jump on the race wagon...that's most important right?

Okay... [/b][/quote]
why are you trying to tell us how to define ourselves? what if i am american born and identify more with being asian american than chinese? what if i can relate to a second generation korean or japanese american more than a first generation chinese?

i personally think what we're doing is much more effective than what latinos have been doing it the past decades. the mexicans would attempt to dissassociate themselves from the puerto ricans, etc. it's lame because, with most nonprofit organizations, whites are only going to allocate enough money for one latino outreach branch. likewise, whites will only allow so much money for asian outreach. it's practical to identify ourselves this way.

and regardless, it's not for you to criticize. it's none of your business.

kimpossible

08-07-2003, 05:10 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FrozenPizza @ Aug 7 2003, 03:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Hello_Hapa @ Aug 7 2003, 03:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Maybe I'm just cut from a lesser cloth but if Ras has his own black/Asian forums with its own agenda, which is black and Asian only and not integrated elsewise, how exactly does Yellowworld and its goals for political consciousness break the rules that seem to be okay for him?

I need someone smarter than me to understand the difference.

Isn't this AZN/Black Nationalism forum (http://pub8.ezboard.com/furbanchinafrm33) race based in grouping in the name of political and social struggles? [/b][/quote]
My guess is that Ras will justify this by saying that it's not confined to just members of one socially-constructed (redundant) race, and encourages interaction and the sharing of perspectives between the black race and the Asian race. [/b][/quote]
OKay, but he said

RACE is a social construct, it is artificial and serves no value accept to further divide people

and

I agree with that, but I think that is due to the group oriented aspect of human nature, but I don't believe that their is somehting in us that makes us automatically group around race.

How do you hold these notions and still promote AZN/Black Nationalism? Still wondering how that isn't grouped around race. But, whatever.

BigLew

08-07-2003, 05:17 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kasia @ Aug 7 2003, 03:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 7 2003, 11:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> So basically white people have grouped you together and defined who you are, and you will accept that and work within the frame work of what white people set down for you to fight against what you see as bias and discrimination?

Basically whites say Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Somoan, whatever are all the same...so you work under that definition instead and may even add to that stereotype by grouping together into some Pan-Asian moverment, instead of fighting to be recognized as how you should be seen, individual ethnicities, with individual languages, cultural, and historical backgrouds.  Yeah, that sounds real American too, jump on the race wagon...that's most important right?

Okay... [/b][/quote]
why are you trying to tell us how to define ourselves? what if i am american born and identify more with being asian american than chinese? what if i can relate to a second generation korean or japanese american more than a first generation chinese?

i personally think what we're doing is much more effective than what latinos have been doing it the past decades. the mexicans would attempt to dissassociate themselves from the puerto ricans, etc. it's lame because, with most nonprofit organizations, whites are only going to allocate enough money for one latino outreach branch. likewise, whites will only allow so much money for asian outreach. it's practical to identify ourselves this way.

and regardless, it's not for you to criticize. it's none of your business. [/b][/quote]
Of course it's his business he has an Asian wife and he has Lived/Traveled to Asia and met REAL Asians not watered down American versions such as us! :rolleyes:

RasFarengi

08-07-2003, 05:20 PM

Kasia:

and regardless, it's not for you to criticize. it's none of your business

That is real mature and enlightening. Thank you. :rolleyes:

Hello Happa:

Frozen Pizza is close but not exactly, there is more to it than that.

If you want to know you can PM me, I don't want to discuss this topic on the board anymore, but I will be happy to answer your question. I can see that this issue is very emotional for some and some folks aren't mature enough to discuss it in mixed company...which is sad, but to be expected, not everyone is at the same level.

Of course it's his business he has an Asian wife and he has Lived/Traveled to Asia and met REAL Asians not watered down American versions such as us!

Please don't go there with that...this has absolutely nothing to do with your insecurities about being adopted by white folks, so just stop it...and no I am not all those AZN people who questioned your pride, don't have flashbacks on my account, I didn't mention anything like what you just said. <_<

AngryABCGirl

08-07-2003, 06:33 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 7 2003, 04:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Kasia:

That is real mature and enlightening. Thank you. :rolleyes:

[/b][/quote]
Sorry, once again I have to say, it's true. You don't have the right or the experience to judge Asian-American life than I have to judge African-American life.

RasFarengi

08-07-2003, 06:42 PM

Fink:

No backlash..you can think what you want about me personally if it makes you happy.

Funny thing is the thread that I started that led to this was not specifically about Asian people, it was about all Immigrants, and it was very general, being an Asian site others directed questions that were specific to Asians, which I responded to. This really is not about Asian Americans. It is about America.

Sorry to disappoint you, but there is nothing about you I find exotic...well unless you look like your avatar. :D

What I really think is that a lot of people come to this site with definate beefs, they feel like they have some issues they need to let out concerning their race, they are looking to share that with others, looking for a group to you unite with to feel apart of, people with common views. Yeah I get that...and I also understand the sensativity around that. Personally I can discuss most issues(even about black people), because I have the ability to remove myself from it, and try to be objective, doesn't always work, but I rarely respond very emotionally.

I also think a lot of people here are young... actually, not think, I know, and there is nothing wrong with that, but as a man who has lived a little, who is married, and considering things like children...I think my thinking is a little different, I definately know I do not think the same as when I was an undergrad, or when I was highschool.

Especially considering having children after grad school, I guess maybe I am thinking about the world I will bring those children in, and the way things are going in this country disturbs my wife and I, that is why we are considering leaving, but still (probably unrealistically) I dream about a brighter future, and for once try to see things of how they could be and not how they are (very uncharacteristic of me)...I realize this is a BBS, but it is just more formation to me that things aren't going to get better...at least not to the place I would like to seem them.

RasFarengi

08-07-2003, 06:58 PM

AzNBuffGrL:

Sorry, once again I have to say, it's true. You don't have the right or the experience to judge Asian-American life than I have to judge African-American life.

So no one in this country from one group has a right to discuss issues or have an opinion about another? Yeah..well maybe in your zipcode, but people judge me and my community ever single day, in the media, books, TV programs, etc. That's fine though, because African Americans don't have their own country, we do not live in a bubble, we are American, and other Americans will have their opinions, especially concerning things that we are involved in that they feel effects society as a whole. What else is new? It doesn't bother me at all. That's the problem with groupism, you forget we are all American and live in the same country...and are effected by each other. YOu only think about "your people."

If you want to discuss African American issues, or African Americans living in Asia or whatever, I know sites I can meet you at and we can talk, and you can talk to others...I could careless, ask questions, give opinions. PM me and I will give you some links. I promise no one will flame you either. I can easily seperate my emotions from the issues, and try to be objective.

The funny thing was, the topic that lead to this was about Immigration issues and integration in America, it was not specifically an Asian American issue, in the initial post I mentioned various groups. People questioned me specifically using Asian American examples, so I responded.

To be honest, you think I judge you on immigration issues? I think you should get used to it, if we are talking about immigration issues. I have an immigrant parent just like you, so these issues have effect my family also, they are not specifically Asian...still

Most of the people over at the new Homeland Security Office are not Asian, and they make policy decision under the state department and the President's directions concerning the issues we talked about, so in effect they are "judging you.."

As far as Race issues, race related organizations...

I was asked about these groups and my opinion on them, and I gave it. I have a right to my opinion, and like I said, this issue (started by me) was not intended to be solely about Asian Americans, and I didn't take it there, others did.

BigLew

08-07-2003, 07:12 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 7 2003, 04:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Please don't go there with that...this has absolutely nothing to do with your insecurities about being adopted by white folks, so just stop it...and no I am not all those AZN people who questioned your pride, don't have flashbacks on my account, I didn't mention anything like what you just said. <_< [/b][/quote]
Who the hell said I had insecurities, your making assumptions based on nothing. I'm perfectly secure with who I am.

You launch into ridiculously longwinded diatribes that usually only go in circles spitting volumes of crap in which you give very few valid points on, even though you are never at a loss for words. Not to mention how elusive you are when you don't have answers saying stuff like Listen, I haven't answered everyones question because I don't have time to write would it would require to answer them and I have multiple people asking mulitple complex questions, you can understand how this is taxing....What a load of b.s.

I think you are the one that is insecure. You constantly have to bring up the fact that you have been or lived in this Asian country and have Asian friends from those Asian countries and have an Asian wife therefore you can speak for the larger volume of these populations. That is the consistent theme of what you use to back your statements.

The fact that you even brought up that I am an adoptee proves only that you can't give a good rebuttal so you have to resort to dishing my personal business, instead of giving a good argument, how insecure is that.

RasFarengi

08-07-2003, 07:19 PM

Biglew...

Look you started this shit, so be man enough to take it. First off based on your initial post concerning me (when I did not address you at all) what makes you feel you are worthy of a "good rebuttel," talk about my ego problems...(sigh)

Who the hell said I had insecurities, your making assumptions based on nothing. I'm perfectly secure with who I am.

Yeah that is what you just did. Don't like it do you? What you said was stupid and uncalled for.

This is an Asian American board duh...so...

We talk about immigrant issues.

I have never immigrated from another country, but my father has, and I know immigrant communities, and I have had experiences as a foreign living in other countries, so you think I would not bring this up as a way to relate to these issues? My wife is also an immigrant. duh?

There are post about China and Japan, sometimes Taiwan.

I have lived or visited all those places, so yeah I will bring up my first hand experience. duh? Who wouldn't?

Also I bring up my wife's experience in those places, especially in her country that she shares with me. Duh? Is that so strange to you?

The truth is I have been fortunate enough to have a lot of experiences and be exposed to very diverse groups of people. I won't apologize for that, or drawing on that experience to discuss certian issues.

If that bothers you, that sounds like a personal problem. I am also older than many people here, which has given me more time to put more experiences under my belt...I mean I can't see how you don't get that...

I have said before...that I only speak for myself, and sometimes I make a comment my wife made (and I state she thinks this) that is all. I speak for no one else, or pretend to understand anyone else specifically.

Allusive? haha...please, I have 3-4 different people writing extremely long post asking me very complex questions, some of them I felt I already answered many times, no I am not going to continue to repeat myself or write post after post after post after post about something that is actually not meant to be that complex. The thread was way off my initial post and just got to the point where it was not about an issue, it was just a competition to see who could stomp who...I don't have time for pissing contests.

AngryABCGirl

08-07-2003, 08:16 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 7 2003, 05:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> AzNBuffGrL:

Sorry, once again I have to say, it's true. You don't have the right or the experience to judge Asian-American life than I have to judge African-American life.

So no one in this country from one group has a right to discuss issues or have an opinion about another? Yeah..well maybe in your zipcode, but people judge me and my community ever single day, in the media, books, TV programs, etc. That's fine though, because African Americans don't have their own country, we do not live in a bubble, we are American, and other Americans will have their opinions, especially concerning things that we are involved in that they feel effects society as a whole. What else is new? It doesn't bother me at all. That's the problem with groupism, you forget we are all American and live in the same country...and are effected by each other. YOu only think about "your people."

If you want to discuss African American issues, or African Americans living in Asia or whatever, I know sites I can meet you at and we can talk, and you can talk to others...I could careless, ask questions, give opinions. PM me and I will give you some links. I promise no one will flame you either. I can easily seperate my emotions from the issues, and try to be objective.

The funny thing was, the topic that lead to this was about Immigration issues and integration in America, it was not specifically an Asian American issue, in the initial post I mentioned various groups. People questioned me specifically using Asian American examples, so I responded.

To be honest, you think I judge you on immigration issues? I think you should get used to it, if we are talking about immigration issues. I have an immigrant parent just like you, so these issues have effect my family also, they are not specifically Asian...still

Most of the people over at the new Homeland Security Office are not Asian, and they make policy decision under the state department and the President's directions concerning the issues we talked about, so in effect they are "judging you.."

As far as Race issues, race related organizations...

I was asked about these groups and my opinion on them, and I gave it. I have a right to my opinion, and like I said, this issue (started by me) was not intended to be solely about Asian Americans, and I didn't take it there, others did. [/b][/quote]
We can discuss all your want and talk all you want and you can judge be all you want, as people judge you and me all the time too, but they don't have a right to judge you if they haven't lived your life, and neighter you have the *right* or the perspective to judge my life as a child of an immigrant and as an Asian-American as much as I don't have to judge yours.

nonamerasian

08-07-2003, 09:58 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Jan 30 2003, 09:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>i think you don't give them enough credit

fine, you think white people can't tell the difference between a malay person and a chinese person.  how about an east asian from a south asian?  do you think an indian guy is ever going to be called a sneaky chink?  is a chinese guy ever going to be beat up because he's thought to be a muslim?  it's fine and all if we want to unite under an embrella of being victims of discrimination, but then again, there's no reason why we should stop at "asian americans", because blacks and latinos face discrimination just the same.  we should just rally under the moniker of "minority".  you can argue that blacks and latinos face different types of discrimination, but as i just illlustrated in this post, even east asians and south asians face different types of discrimination, and even east asians and south asians discriminate against each other just like blacks discriminate against asians and vice versa.[/b][/quote]
This post is probably the one I most agree with in this entire thread.

(Not really related to that comment. . .)

People like to use the example of Black political groups and whatnot, so I’ll on with that theme.

Many African-Americans oppose Afro-Caribbeanites and Blacks from Africa calling themselves any other ethnicity other than African-American. I’ve even witnessed people berate Black Hispanics for not considering themselves African-American. For me, that’s kind of waving one’s finger at an Irish guy for not calling himself Scottish, but anyhoo. . .

If you look at Black/African-American advocacy groups, rarely will you hear them address the concerns of non-African-Americans, unless it’s a concern that the Black groups share together.

That’s kind of what happens when there is a majority in the supposedly monolithic group.

I don’t have stats on this, but my guess is that East Asians clearly out number non-East Asians in the monolithic “Asian-American” political group. Will the concerns of non-East Asians not be clouded over in this political group?

I’ve heard people of East Asian descent proclaim that they don’t even consider most South Asians “really Asian.” How widespread is this mindset?

Although I’ve never heard my East Asian friends say that they don’t consider South Asians “really Asian,” when they are counting how many Asians there were in a specific place, they aren’t counting Ali, Harish, Suresh, Sunit, and Mohammed. If I talk about an Asian, they may ask whether I’m referring to someone Korean, Chinese or some other Asian groups, but they most probably wouldn’t mention the phenotypically different Bangladeshi on their list.

While I have heard many South Asians say that they are Asian, if I had a South Asian identity, I’d be particularly troubled of being considered a part of a group which seems to only want to consider me one of them when it politically conveniences them.

After all, it doesn’t seem the two groups are completely considered as one in the social sense. When someone says “Asian,” most people still think “East Asian.”

I’ve rarely met a non-West Indian able to point out a West Indian who doesn’t have a West Indian accent or waving their country’s flag. If a guy of recent Nigerian descent is about to get beaten by a mob for being Black, so may an African-American by the same mob for the same reason.

At least when it comes to the Black/African-American groups, generally phenotype is a strong incentive to bond. At least when it concerns issues based on race (opposed to culture), that’s the common bond.

It’s also probably the reason I’ve never heard a Korean say, “Chinese aren’t really Asian,” or likewise.

What about in your case where there is a racial difference between South and East Asians (phenotype)? What is the incentive for a group that doesn’t have such a bond to consider themselves a part of the “Asian-American” political group?

While I agree there is strength in numbers, will it mean that South Asians will play pawn to the socio-political interests of the East Asian majority? Will the East Asian majority feel obligated to address the concerns that specifically target South Asians?