definition of 'dragon ladies'

[sandra]

from Shuriken in another thread:

Asian women as "China dolls." Asian women are often portrayed as exotic, subservient, compliant, industrious, eager to please. While nicknamed the "China doll," "geisha girl," or "lotus blossom," this sexually loaded stereotype isn't restricted to Chinese or Japanese women. This portrayal is epitomized by the self-effacing title character of the opera "Madame Butterfly," but it can also be seen in works like "Teahouse of the August Moon" and "Tai-Pan."

Stereotype-Buster: Asian women as self-confident and self-respecting, pleasing themselves as well as their loved ones.

Asian women as "dragon ladies." Another major female stereotype views Asian women as inherently scheming, untrustworthy, and back-stabbing. This portrayal is nicknamed the "dragon lady," after the Asian villainess in the vintage comic strip "Terry and the Pirates." Other examples of the stereotype are the daughter of Fu Manchu (in numerous books and movies) and the gangsters' molls in "The Year of the Dragon."

Stereotype-Buster: Whenever villains are Asian, it's important that their villainy not be attributed to their ethnicity.

[Shuriken]

Thanks for re-posting that, Kasia. I'd just like to point out that it's part of a longer piece, a memo from MANAA to Hollywood called "Asian Stereotypes." It can be read in its entirety here (http://www.manaa.org/a_stereotypes.html).

[himura-dono]

*discalimer*
all of the above is true, but null and void when in the presence of a triad movie...

before i get the lawyer curse, EDIT: in reference to the Stereotype-busters

[Shuriken]

Originally posted by himura-dono@Feb 13 2003, 11:02 PM
*discalimer*
all of the above is true, but null and void when in the presence of a triad movie...

before i get the lawyer curse, EDIT: in reference to the Stereotype-busters
The "Asian Stereotypes" memo was written regarding American media, in which Asian characters are still marginalized. The "triad" movies are largely a phenomenon of the Asian film industries. If a Hollywood movie has an Asian villain but also has an Asian hero (as with some of Jackie Chan's recent Hollywood vehicles), I'm willing to cut the film a lot of slack. But with the possible exception of The Replacement Killers, when was the last time you saw a Hollywood movie about the Asian or Asian American underworld told from the point of view of an Asian lead character?

[amietron]

Yeah. Thanks, Shuriken and Kasie. :)

Didn't know what it was. I think it was Mr.X who made a reference to one.

I'm not a dragon lady. Right, Nick?

My mission: To be a TOTAL badass but look like an angel.

[Shuriken]

http://www.crackerpacks.com/5/Dragon_Lady_brick-5.gif

Dragon Lady is the generic name for any Asian vilainess. Historically, in the popular imagination, the Dragon Lady was matched against a Caucasian protagonist (male or female), resulting in stories where the audience is supposed to root for the white character and hiss the Asian antagonist. Consequently, the Dragon Lady became the racially marked antithesis to all that was good about Western civilization. In the years before World War II, the Dragon Lady stood as the female embodiment of the "yellow peril."

[Shuriken]

Perhaps the best known of all the fictional Dragon Ladies is the daughter of Fu Manchu (http://www.njedge.net/~knapp/FuManchu.htm). Fu Manchu was the fictional creation of the British writer Sax Rohmer (born Arthur Sarsfield Ward). The first of Rohmer's Fu Manchu stories was published in 1913. This Chinese arch-villain was bent on the destruction of the Western world, and his daughter was an accomplice in his sinister schemes. The movies adapted Rohmer's stories about the inscrutible Chinese villain shortly after his introduction in print. And one feature film, Paramount's Daughter of the Dragon in 1931, featured the daughter of Fu Manchu as its central character. She was played by Anna May Wong. A series of European films in the 1960s and 1970s revived the character of Fu Manchu, with British actor Christopher Lee in the role, and the part of his daughter was played by Tsai Chin, who would go on to star in The Joy Luck Club (1993).



http://www.assumption.edu/ahc/WONG_DRAGON31.jpg

Anna May Wong as the Daughter of Fu Manchu in Daughter of the Dragon (1931)



http://www.njedge.net/~knapp/AnnaMayWongWarner.jpg

Another still from Daughter of the Dragon with Swedish actor Warner Oland (left) as Fu Manchu, Anna May Wong, and Sessue Hayakawa as a Chinese detective

[Shuriken]

http://www.joancrawfordonline.com/az/d/dragon_lady.jpg

A portrait of the Dragon Lady from "Terry and the Pirates" by Milton Caniff


Another fictional character who did much to cement the idea of the inscrutible Asian villainess in the years before World War II was a character who was actually named "the Dragon Lady." She was the arch-antagonist of the newspaper adventure strip Terry and the Pirates (http://www.gographics.com/funnies/terryidx.htm), created by cartoonist Milton Caniff, which ran from 1934 to 1973. The Dragon Lady's evil schemes were always running afoul of the youthful good-guy (Caucasian) adventurer Terry and his daredevil guardian Pat Ryan (also a Caucasian). The strip often hinted at sexual tension between Ryan and the Dragon Lady, which, owing to the nature of the series, was never consummated.

[Shuriken]

http://www.web-birds.com/7th/11/dragon%20lady.jpg

A World War II bombing plane

[Shuriken]

However, the popular image of the Asian villainess is much less pervasive today than it was in the years before World War II. Why? I believe that the figure of the Dragon Lady sprang from fears of miscegenation. Before the middle of the 20th century, most states in the U.S. outlawed interracial mixing. Images of villainous Asian women served as a warning to white men to stay away from those enticing Asiatic temptresses, or else they'd risk diluting their precious Aryan blood. For this reason, Anna May Wong was never allowed to kiss a white man on screen, while the Dragon Lady and Pat Ryan were similarly prohibited from acknowledging their mutual attraction.

However, after World War II, many white American servicemen returned from overseas with Asian war brides. And in order to stay on good terms with its Asian allies, the United States was compelled to relax its anti-miscegenation laws state by state. Before too long, the idea of a Caucasian husband and his "Oriental" wife became increasingly accepted in mainstream American society. Where scenes of interracial romance between white men and Asian women were once taboo on the silver screen, Hollywood began pairing white leading men with Asian romantic interests as early as Japanese War Bride, starring Don Taylor and Shirley Yamaguchi, in 1952. In the years since then, of course, stories that romantically match white men with Asian women have become commonplace.


http://ibelgique.ifrance.com/cinedestin/films/l/la/lan/lanneedudragon2.jpg

Since World War II, America's popular image of Asian villainy has become decidely male. Where harping on the racial differences between, say, Fu Manchu and his Western adversaries was once commonly accepted, such a story-telling tactic looks suspiciously racist today. Nowadays, if the mainstream media wants to play opportunistically on the white audience's fears and misunderstandings of Asian people, it will create stories that pit white male protagonists against Asian male antagonists — but it will shield itself from charges of racism by giving the white heroes Asian female love interests. One example is the 1985 movie The Year of the Dragon (above), which featured Mickey Rourke as a tough Polish American cop fighting the Chinese underworld in New York with the help of a Chinese American TV reporter, played by Ariane. The film's central antagonist was a male underworld leader, played by John Lone, while the Asian female villains were minor, peripheral characters.


http://deadman.crowfans.com/myca.jpg

Today, when a primary Hollywood antagonist is Asian, that character will almost always be male. If an Asian villain is female, that character will most likely not be the hero's central opponent. For example, Bai Ling played an Asian evil-doer in 1994's The Crow (above), but she was not the movie's arch-villain.

So, the acceptance of Asian women as suitable romantic and sexual partners for white men has robbed them of their pre-war status as "forbidden fruit." Because there are no longer any social prohibitions that tell white men to be wary of Asian female sexuality, there is likewise no longer any cultural impetus for Hollywood to malign Asian women. Consequently, the image of the villainous Dragon Lady is much less common in Western popular culture than it was in the years before World War II. Perhaps for this reason, the very idea of what a "Dragon Lady" is — an evil, scheming, back-stabbing Asian woman — has faded from popular consciousness.

But it has been replaced by popular culture's unvarying vilification of Asian male sexuality.

[contra_diction]

very informative, thanks Shuriken. i always thought it was primarily a Chinese or Japanese thing, but no, just asian in general, huh?

[mr. x]

Originally posted by amietron@Feb 14 2003, 12:41 PM
Yeah. Thanks, Shuriken and Kasie. :)

Didn't know what it was. I think it was Mr.X who made a reference to one.

I'm not a dragon lady. Right, Nick?

My mission: To be a TOTAL badass but look like an angel.
Thanks for the shoutout! :D

[mr. x]

The sad part about hollywood stereotyping of asians is that its like an std. One white dude writes a dragon lady role and then some other whiteass picks it up when he sees it

[Fireblade]

It's really about how the producers take to the image that a writer projects, and shells out his idea to make the quick cash. I know that there are many more intelligent scripts out there that hollywood could pick up, but they claim it to be "risky" so that's why you don't see many Asian leads which doesn't involve some sort of martial arts, or B.S. quasi-asian philosophy.
Be it as it may, we can't totally bitch about it all. More and more of our culture is being intergrated into the mainstream. Most of it is bad, some of it is good. Somewhere down along the road, someone will get it right, and hopefully we'll be put in a new light. As the human beings we are.

[himura-dono]

Originally posted by Shuriken@Feb 14 2003, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by himura-dono@Feb 13 2003, 11:02 PM
*discalimer*
all of the above is true, but null and void when in the presence of a triad movie...

before i get the lawyer curse, EDIT: in reference to the Stereotype-busters
The "Asian Stereotypes" memo was written regarding American media, in which Asian characters are still marginalized. The "triad" movies are largely a phenomenon of the Asian film industries. If a Hollywood movie has an Asian villain but also has an Asian hero (as with some of Jackie Chan's recent Hollywood vehicles), I'm willing to cut the film a lot of slack. But with the possible exception of The Replacement Killers, when was the last time you saw a Hollywood movie about the Asian or Asian American underworld told from the point of view of an Asian lead character?
i was actually referruing to the majority of chinese films that manage to make it to the US subtitled for the non-chinese speaking, english comprehending masses.

and i also am not surprised, but find it disheartening this was an actual memo.

[himura-dono]

Originally posted by Shuriken@Feb 14 2003, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by himura-dono@Feb 13 2003, 11:02 PM
*discalimer*
all of the above is true, but null and void when in the presence of a triad movie...

before i get the lawyer curse, EDIT: in reference to the Stereotype-busters
The "Asian Stereotypes" memo was written regarding American media, in which Asian characters are still marginalized. The "triad" movies are largely a phenomenon of the Asian film industries. If a Hollywood movie has an Asian villain but also has an Asian hero (as with some of Jackie Chan's recent Hollywood vehicles), I'm willing to cut the film a lot of slack. But with the possible exception of The Replacement Killers, when was the last time you saw a Hollywood movie about the Asian or Asian American underworld told from the point of view of an Asian lead character?
hmm, there was russel wong and i forget the dad's name in romeo must die. the two [wong, and li's dad] orchestrated the whole war between the families and went so far as for li to have his own son killed as the ignition of the war.

[Shuriken]

Originally posted by himura-dono@Feb 17 2003, 01:14 PM
hmm, there was russel wong and i forget the dad's name in romeo must die. the two [wong, and li's dad] orchestrated the whole war between the families and went so far as for li to have his own son killed as the ignition of the war.
Yeah, I suppose that you could consider both Romeo Must Die and The Corruptor as Hollywood Asian-gangster movies with Asian leads. But these were done as star vehicles for actors who first established their careers overseas (Jet Li and Chow Yun-Fat). My point was that you don't see movies about Asian American gangs with Asian American lead characters, whereas movies about Italian American gangs, such as The Godfather, tend to have Italian American protagonists.

[Shuriken]

Originally posted by himura-dono@Feb 17 2003, 01:10 PM
and i also am not surprised, but find it disheartening this was an actual memo.
Why? What's wrong with it?

[himura-dono]

the fact that it needs to be addressed

[Shuriken]

Originally posted by himura-dono@Feb 17 2003, 06:07 PM
the fact that it needs to be addressed
Okay, thanks for clearing that up. :)

[Shuriken]

There's a flip side to not knowing what the "Dragon Lady" stereotype is: seeing the stereotype in every single portrayal of an Asian woman that is less than completely flattering.


http://members.tgforum.com/corafmnoir/Resources/flowerPhone.jpg

In the movie musical Flower Drum Song (1961), Nancy Kwan plays Linda Low, a showgirl who uses her feminine wiles to catch a husband, including pitting two suitors against each other. Is she a Dragon Lady?


http://www.cenedra.com/twinpeaks/chara/josie.jpg

In the TV series Twin Peaks (1990-91), Joan Chen plays Josie Packard, a powerful businesswoman with a shady past who becomes embroiled in a murder plot. Dragon Lady or not?


http://www.tvtome.com/images/people/1/3/57-3363.jpg


In the TV series Ally McBeal (1997-2002), Lucy Liu plays Ling Woo, a lawyer who is grossly insensitive to the feelings of others. Numerous critics have labeled this character a Dragon Lady.



Whatever the drawbacks of these characters, they are certainly miles away from the image of the villainous Asian woman of the pre-World War II era, a female caricature of Asia's presumed inability to get along with Western civilization. Since Hollywood started employing Asian women as love interests for their non-Asian lead characters, the portrayal of Asian women as primary antagonists has declined almost to the point of non-existence. To my recollection, the last high-profile Hollywood movie with a primary villainess played by a recognizably Asian actress was Universal's Kull the Conqueror (1997), with Tia Carrere as the central antagonist. But (as with the Rock and Kelly Hu in The Scorpion King) her character was not Asian but from a mythical land, and the movie didn't dwell on the ethnic differences between Carrere's character and the non-Asian hero of the title, played by Kevin Sorbo.

Whether a female character deserves to be called a Dragon Lady must be estimated, I think, in relation to the old pre-war stereotype of the Asian arch-villainess. A given portrayal must also be measured in relation to the overall work. Is the character a one-dimensional caricature or a fully fleshed-out human being? Is the audience supposed to empathize with this character? Or is her race being used to alienate the audience's sympathies and serve as a cultural contrast to a non-Asian hero? I think that the Asian Stereotypes (http://www.manaa.org/a_stereotypes.html) memo can serve as a guide to whether an Asian female character is being used to exploit a sterotype or not.

For example, the character of Ling Woo in Ally McBeal was not a particularly likeable person: she was abrasive and had absolutely no radar for the feelings of others. As one writer put it, she was "blunt to the point of being tactless." But was this character upholding an Asian stereotype? I don't think so. Ling Woo provided one of the mainstream media's few images of an Asian woman asserting herself and not backing down. She was one of the few characters on television who got audiences to empathize with her and root for her by not being nice. On the other hand, the show made Ling excessively sexual. She resisted having sex with her boyfriend only to reveal that she's a dynamo between the sheets. After she is appointed to a judgeship, she has herself photographed for a nude pictorial. Would the writers have had the character do these things if she hadn't been Asian? Whatever the answer, I think that the character is positive overall, and I wouldn't label her a Dragon Lady.

In a similar vein, we're supposed to sympathize with Flower Drum Song's Linda Low: although she resorts to some underhanded tactics, we're supposed to root for her landing the man that she loves. The role of Josie Packard in Twin Peaks was not written as Asian (reportedly, Isabella Rossellini was offerd the role first), so the show did not conceive of the character as a Dragon Lady. Despite the series giving Josie a backstory as a Hong Kong prostitute and having her plot to kill the main character in an act of desperation, she was, in the end, more sinned-against than sinning. Although Linda Low, Josie Packard, and Ling Woo are clearly not "positive role models," neither do they come across as caricatures of Asian women that reflect the ignorance of their Western creators. I wouldn't call any of them Dragon Ladies. Would you?

[mr. x]

dragon ladies dont have to wield deadly chopsticks. Any asian woman who schemes, is to me a dragon lady.

[tapestrybabe]

Originally posted by mr. x@Feb 18 2003, 05:50 PM
Any asian woman who schemes, is to me a dragon lady.
when an asian female takes up on a role of a person who schemes... why should her role be an inherent characteristic to her being asian??

i dont see the connection...

[mr. x]

i duno, its just asian women dont scheme (in tv shows and movies) like white women. They do "mysterious" scheming. Im sick of seeing every other asian woman with a "deep dark secret past"

[sandra]

lucy liu comes to mind.

http://www.askmen.com/imagessexsymbol/mar00/lucyliu/lucy_liu_151c.jpg

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/54/039_42615.jpg

[sandra]

Originally posted by amietron@Feb 14 2003, 12:41 PM
I'm not a dragon lady. Right, Nick?

you know, ames, i don't think any of us are dragon ladies in real life. it's just a media portrayal. can you name any of your friends that you would really label as a dragon lady?

[sandra]

Originally posted by mr. x@Feb 18 2003, 04:51 PM
i duno, its just asian women dont scheme (in tv shows and movies) like white women.  They do "mysterious" scheming.  Im sick of seeing every other asian woman with a "deep dark secret past"
that's exactly how i see it. asian women - when they're not portrayed as passive, pathetic, spineless lotus blossoms like suzie wong - are portrayed as mischievous and mysterious creatures - not evil by nature but evil as the result some dark, tortured past. or maybe just evil by nature of being asian - which seems to imply some dark, tortured past...so i guess evil by nature would be an accurate description.

the only exceptions i can think of are mulan (and i'm not sure about this since i have only heard the story and haven't watched the cartoon), lilo and her sister from lilo and stitch (but they're more like pacific islanders), and ming na from er. there's also that one chick from rumble in the bronx who seemed normal. i guess there are also those two girls from austin powers who wouldn't fit into either the lotus blossom or dragon lady categories - they didn't seem mysterious enough to be dragon ladies. perhaps there is now a new category - sex-crazed moronic asian girls?

why are dragon ladies annoying? for a while after that episode with lucy liu and her g-spot on ally mcbeal, i've felt like a lot of white guys looked at me - along with other asian chicks - thinking that we all had our g-spots behind our knees. acting bitchy to get them to go away didn't help - that would only reaffirm the idea that we were dragon ladies. we don't all like s&m. we don't all have a story to tell.

and why do we always have long hair?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by kasia@Feb 19 2003, 05:17 PM
and why do we always have long hair?
yeah damn it. i actually like girls with really short hair.


hmmm.... chungking express faye....

[Shuriken]

Originally posted by kasia@Feb 19 2003, 10:17 PM
and why do we always have long hair?
http://www.coe.com/amall/partners/astyle/img/15bailingheadL.jpg

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by Shuriken@Feb 20 2003, 10:18 AM
http://www.coe.com/amall/partners/astyle/img/15bailingheadL.jpg
Um yea SWK is that short enuff for ya :lol:

[SunWuKong]

umm... yeah that's a little too short. but hell, that's bai ling. i'd do her regardless of what kind of hair she has.

[mr. x]

shaolin monk dude

[Shuriken]

http://www.hollywoodandvine.com/yokoono/image_files/dragon_lady_red.jpg

"I'm kind of honored to be [called] a dragon lady [by my critics]. The dragon is a very powerful mythic animal — well, probably they think I'm powerful, thank you very much."

—Yoko Ono

[mr. x]

i dont think they meant it as a compliment (to yoko ono)

they meant she's devious and broke up the beatles and stuff

[himura-dono]

empress dowager cixi...now THERE was a dragon lady :ph34r:

[sandra]

Originally posted by himura-dono@Feb 26 2003, 02:30 PM
empress dowager cixi...now THERE was a dragon lady :ph34r:
who is that?

[himura-dono]

Originally posted by kasia@Feb 26 2003, 02:49 PM
who is that?
:o

she's the most evil woman from the qing era...well, i'd say most of china's LOOOOOOOOONG history...

she's pretty much responsible for any chance of china avoiding getting sliced and diced and split 8 ways.

[sandra]

Originally posted by himura-dono@Feb 26 2003, 03:11 PM
:o

she's the most evil woman from the qing era...well, i'd say most of china's LOOOOOOOOONG history...

she's pretty much responsible for any chance of china avoiding getting sliced and diced and split 8 ways.
would you say the dragon lady stereotype is held only in the United States and maybe in Europe or elsewhere in the world as well? and why?

[Shuriken]

http://www.southendpress.org/images/dragon.jpg

More recently, some Asian American feminists have attempted to re-appropriate the term "Dragon Lady." In the Introduction (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/grhf/WoC/feminisms/shah.html) to her book, Dragon Ladies: Asian American Feminists Breath Fire, Sonia Shah looks at the phrase in historical detail. Unfortunately, she doesn't say why she wants to reclaim this particular term or, given its troubled history, why she thinks it's appropriate for Asian American women. Nevertheless, Shah's article remains an intriguing read.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by Shuriken@Mar 2 2003, 04:49 PM
http://www.southendpress.org/images/dragon.jpg

More recently, some Asian American feminists have attempted to re-appropriate the term "Dragon Lady." In the Introduction (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/grhf/WoC/feminisms/shah.html) to her book, Dragon Ladies: Asian American Feminists Breath Fire, Sonia Shah looks at the phrase in historical detail. Unfortunately, she doesn't say why she wants to reclaim this particular term or, given its troubled history, why she thinks it's appropriate for Asian American women. Nevertheless, Shah's article remains an intriguing read.
She looks like my mom when pissed.

[himura-dono]

Originally posted by kasia@Feb 28 2003, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by himura-dono@Feb 26 2003, 03:11 PM
:o

she's the most evil woman from the qing era...well, i'd say most of china's LOOOOOOOOONG history...

she's pretty much responsible for any chance of china avoiding getting sliced and diced and split 8 ways.
would you say the dragon lady stereotype is held only in the United States and maybe in Europe or elsewhere in the world as well? and why?
dragon-lady to me is just someone i'd refer to as a bitch (negatively; not to be confused with "damn, look at that bitch, she's so fucking hot")

[sandra]

Originally posted by Shuriken@Mar 2 2003, 04:49 PM
More recently, some Asian American feminists have attempted to re-appropriate the term "Dragon Lady." In the Introduction (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/grhf/WoC/feminisms/shah.html) to her book, Dragon Ladies: Asian American Feminists Breath Fire, Sonia Shah looks at the phrase in historical detail. Unfortunately, she doesn't say why she wants to reclaim this particular term or, given its troubled history, why she thinks it's appropriate for Asian American women. Nevertheless, Shah's article remains an intriguing read.
it was interesting to read. it was an anthology, right? i remember not relating to any of the women. <_<

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by mr. x@Feb 26 2003, 12:49 AM
i dont think they meant it as a compliment (to yoko ono)

they meant she's devious and broke up the beatles and stuff
i think she probably knew that, and wasn't going to publicly get upset about it, and so was trying to disarm the label and even call it a compliment.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by kasia@Feb 26 2003, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by himura-dono@Feb 26 2003, 02:30 PM
empress dowager cixi...now THERE was a dragon lady
who is that?
she ruled china in all but name right before the last emperor of china, puyi.
i don't know if she was all that more "evil" than others in history who have struggled for power of the imperial court - but she did order her own grandson killed, and her own son (emperor before puyi) and wife died "mysteriously".