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VV o n g B a
01-10-2003, 08:25 AM
http://www.economist.com/printedition/Prin...tory_ID=1524784 (http://www.economist.com/printedition/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=1524784)

Is torture ever justified?

Jan 9th 2003
From The Economist print edition


Even faced with monstrous terrorism, democracies break the taboo at their peril



HOW can democratic governments best fight an enemy like al-Qaeda, whose operatives are encouraged to outdo each other in the barbarity of their attacks? In ways that uphold the values democracies stand for, is the answer one would like to give. Yet faced with the sort of threat al-Qaeda poses, this line is not always so easy to draw.

Western democracies have long upheld the international ban on torture, and have publicly criticised other governments that violate it. The Bush administration has lambasted the Iraqi regime for torturing its opponents and has issued reports about similar abuses in other countries. But in its efforts to defeat al-Qaeda, is the American government itself now quietly sanctioning the use of some forms of torture?



Ends and means
A detailed account of American interrogation methods appeared recently in the Washington Post. The article quoted American officials who describe beatings and the withholding of medical treatment, as well as “stress and duress” techniques, such as sleep deprivation, hooding, and forcing prisoners to hold awkward positions for hours. The officials also say they sent alleged terrorists and lists of questions to countries known for far harsher interrogation techniques.

Although well documented, the account has produced official denials and only a desultory discussion among American commentators, who seem no keener to discuss the subject than the British and French were when the issue arose in Northern Ireland and Algiers. This is understandable. But to evade the question is hypocritical and irresponsible. By speaking anonymously about their interrogation methods, the officials seem to be asking for help: how far should they go in trying to elicit information to stave off another large-scale terrorist attack? They deserve an answer.

One of the few commentators brave enough to take this question seriously has been Alan Dershowitz, a leading American criminal-defence lawyer. He poses the “ticking-bomb” scenario. Suppose you know that there is a bomb about to go off which could claim thousands of victims. You have good reason to believe that a prisoner knows where it is, and that torture may force him to tell. Would you allow him to be tortured? Most people, however reluctantly, answer “yes”.

After September 11th, this is no longer just a theoretical prospect. This week in London, anti-terrorist police arrested a group of men, possibly members or supporters of al-Qaeda, who had apparently been manufacturing ricin, a deadly toxin. If that is so, the authorities will want to know how much was made, where it now is, and who else was involved. Possibly, lives will depend on finding the answers. In circumstances such as those, one can readily imagine intelligence officers quietly saying, “If only we could really lean on these people.”

Mr Dershowitz argues that the new threats do justify a limited use of non-lethal torture in extreme cases, and proposes that judges be able to issue “torture warrants”. His solution is the wrong one. But he is right that the threat of more catastrophic terrorist attacks creates genuine dilemmas.

A first point is that the “ticking-bomb” scenario is not as clarifying as one would wish. If torture is to be allowed, then how much cruelty would be permitted? Would threats against the prisoner's family be all right? His neighbours? His country? Even the extreme circumstance of a “ticking-bomb” threat offers no clear guidance to how far you might go.

But the bigger problem is with Mr Dershowitz's solution. Even if you allow, as many will not, that torture might be justified under the most extreme circumstances, it would be difficult to confine its use to those very rare cases. Any system that allowed torture in tightly controlled situations would risk eroding into wider use. To legalise is to encourage. Israel tried to limit use of physical coercion to extreme cases, but its security forces have ended up using such methods far more widely than was initially foreseen.

If America were to sanction torture, to begin with in extremely rare cases, there might be some immediate gains in security. Much as one would like to believe that torture never succeeds in extracting vital information, history says otherwise. But, for the democratic West, any such gains would be outweighed by greater harm. The prohibition against torture expresses one of the West's most powerful taboos—and some taboos (like that against the use of nuclear weapons) are worth preserving even at heavy cost. Though many authoritarian regimes use torture, not one of even these openly admits it. A decision by the United States to employ some forms of torture, no matter how limited the circumstances, would shatter the taboo. The morale of the West in what may be a long war against terrorism would be gravely set back: to stay strong, the liberal democracies need to be certain that they are better than their enemies.

George Bush has said that the fight against al-Qaeda is a battle for hearts and minds, not just a matter of military power. Though critics focus on his sabre-rattling, Mr Bush has been consistent in his claims to be defending human rights and democracy, and he has persisted in reaching out to Muslims, though he rarely gets credit for this. To keep the moral high ground, he needs to bolster public disavowals of torture by specifying the methods American interrogators can employ, by enforcing the limits, and by desisting from handing prisoners over to less scrupulous allies.



Choosing sides
There is room for discussion about what the limits should be. Given the gravity of the terrorist threat, vigorous questioning short of torture—prolonged interrogations, mild sleep deprivation, perhaps the use of truth serum—might be justified in some cases. Such tactics have ambiguous standing in international law. Some are occasionally employed against ordinary criminals. But there is a line which democracies cross at their peril: threatening or inflicting actual bodily harm. On one side of that line stand societies sure of their civilised values. That is the side America and its allies must choose.

wylin
01-10-2003, 08:39 AM
Always it is when more then just the tortured suspects life is at stake, this goes back to that ulitarian ideology of the needs of the many outweight the needs of a few.

nudel
01-10-2003, 08:45 AM
torture upon citizens no, but torture for soldiers yes. its like with the americans found fighting against us soldiers in afghanistan. they are out of the us, they have a rifle, they are shooting at us soldiers. they are no longer citizens and so should be faced with military standards. as soon as they pick up a weapon against this country, they lose their citizenship and forfeit their constitutional rights. i'm against rules/international law for wars too. its such an asinine concept. war is destructive, so you put laws on it? ridiculous. when a country goes to war they should use any method to finish it. it is in the best interest of warring parties to do it as humanly as possible because if they are the victors they must deal with the conquered. if the conquered has been mistreated, the conqueror will have a difficult time in maintaining their prize. I’m with machiavelli, the end justify the means.

VV o n g B a
01-10-2003, 09:08 AM
i hold the view of if we torture, we are no better than our enemies who we despise and who we say we are better than. why fight for and protect any ideals in the first place then because all our views are meaningless when put to the test. meaningless when they really matter. but i certainly understand the impulse that drives your answers.

war crimes are put in place as a deterrence for military commanders against hurting civilians whose deaths have little bearing on military objectives. genocide for instance is a war crime. the conquerers would not have to deal with ANY difficult time in maintaining their prize if there isn't anyone left to disagree with them right? yes, war is destructive. but it CAN be limited to mostly military deaths as shown by the US in recent conflicts. do u not think its in general humanity's interest that leaders be afraid of mass killings and rapings just to demoralize a ppl?

*edit*
the other problem with starting torture is that other countries will feel little reason not to do it to US citizens if they think US citizens might hold valuable info. i may be wrong, but i don't think iraq went very far in torturing US POWs. they were shown beatup on tv, but thats because they beat themselves up.

wylin
01-10-2003, 09:36 AM
i think we should attack civies indiscriminantly and turn the full might of our technology against both the rival countries military and its populace and desicrate its infrastructure. when uf fight a war, you shouldnt limit yourself based on humanitarian mojo.... Instead you should fight with glory crush the opposing sides infrastructure and spirit, if you defeat them who questions the victor especially if your country is stronger and more powerful (like the US or Russia or china)

nudel
01-10-2003, 09:47 AM
rape and general citizen torment is a sign of an undisciplined army. You may say japan did the same and they had a very disciplined military force. They are hated for their war crimes to this day. If they had won the war, I’m sure they would always be in conflict with someone. Former yogoslavia. Interview a serb soldier and ask them why they fought. They may answer, 600 years ago a croat did this unspeakable thing to a serb or even more recently, during wwii a croat ustasha killed his family. Northern Ireland. Its not just a catholic/protestant conflict, protestants is the religion of the English, who demoralized Ireland for a millennia. Mistreatment of civilian population by an invading army has always been a big headache for the winning invaders and has lead to the subsequent loss of the gained territory. Yes, if we torture a pow we run the risk that our own soldiers will be tortured. That is one of the reasons why Japanese soldiers fought so fiercely, yes, it was more of a customary issue to uphold the honor of the empire and the family name but they did know what they were doing to foreign pows.

I’m just saying, let the military do their job. Let them destroy and win wars that we bring, don’t criticize for how they do it, that’s just hypocritical.

Hey, anyone history majors, or former grads of the us war college.

VV o n g B a
01-10-2003, 09:48 AM
ok. lets say china wanted to actually put your policies into effect regarding taiwan. do u still think its a good idea? would u still be so supportive of it? if so, then i guess there's not much point in arguing with you on this point. (not that there's much point arguing with u on ANY point... :P )

nudel
01-10-2003, 09:53 AM
i'm not arguing, i just like a good debate.

wylin
01-10-2003, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by VV o n g B a@Jan 10 2003, 09:48 AM
ok. lets say china wanted to actually put your policies into effect regarding taiwan. do u still think its a good idea? would u still be so supportive of it? if so, then i guess there's not much point in arguing with you on this point. (not that there's much point arguing with u on ANY point... :P )
yah why not its effective, and if it lets them win the conflict then its a good tactic. The victor write history not like the US of A didnt do any of that stuff in vietnam and korea and especially WW2

VV o n g B a
01-10-2003, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by nudel@Jan 10 2003, 11:47 AM
rape and general citizen torment is a sign of an undisciplined army. You may say japan did the same and they had a very disciplined military force. They are hated for their war crimes to this day. If they had won the war, I’m sure they would always be in conflict with someone. Former yogoslavia. Interview a serb soldier and ask them why they fought. They may answer, 600 years ago a croat did this unspeakable thing to a serb or even more recently, during wwii a croat ustasha killed his family. Northern Ireland. Its not just a catholic/protestant conflict, protestants is the religion of the English, who demoralized Ireland for a millennia. Mistreatment of civilian population by an invading army has always been a big headache for the winning invaders and has lead to the subsequent loss of the gained territory. Yes, if we torture a pow we run the risk that our own soldiers will be tortured. That is one of the reasons why Japanese soldiers fought so fiercely, yes, it was more of a customary issue to uphold the honor of the empire and the family name but they did know what they were doing to foreign pows.

I’m just saying, let the military do their job. Let them destroy and win wars that we bring, don’t criticize for how they do it, that’s just hypocritical.

Hey, anyone history majors, or former grads of the us war college.
this is all true. the point is that some ppl don't learn from history or just have an itching for revenge and the cycle never stops. would it not be better that SOME ppl learned from history and nipped the problem in the bud?

and i'm not currently critisizing how the military conducts its wars. i'm actually more than satisfied that the US tries its best not to kill noncombatants. i'm just concerned with their intelligence gathering methods.

VV o n g B a
01-10-2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by nudel@Jan 10 2003, 11:53 AM
i'm not arguing, i just like a good debate.
that reply was meant for will. i should have been more clear.

VV o n g B a
01-10-2003, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by wylin@Jan 10 2003, 11:54 AM
yah why not its effective, and if it lets them win the conflict then its a good tactic. The victor write history not like the US of A didnt do any of that stuff in vietnam and korea and especially WW2
well whatever then. if u don't see anything wrong with this happening to your own pplz, then u win. :blink:

wylin
01-10-2003, 10:19 AM
war is brutal and cold and heartless, when u take up arms against another man u should fight to win and not let urself be controled by humanitarian concerns. thats why i respect the russians they fight w/ tenacity and brutality and have descrated the chechyans much like the descrated and defeated the germans.

Arb Nam
01-10-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by wylin@Jan 10 2003, 10:19 AM
war is brutal and cold and heartless, when u take up arms against another man u should fight to win and not let urself be controled by humanitarian concerns.  thats why i respect the russians they fight w/ tenacity and brutality and have descrated the chechyans much like the descrated and defeated the germans.
That's nonsense, the russians are actually losing the war in Chechynia. They might have taken control of the cities but are losing patrols in the countrysides. The Russian army, demoralised and underpaid are perpetrating the worst sort of war crimes out of greed or frustration. It's not surprising that Russia and the Chechyan puppet government are alienating the local populous. The Russians are far from winning the war.

Arb Nam
01-10-2003, 04:04 PM
interested in Chechnya? see this http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2002Dec31.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60732-2002Dec31.html)

Commando_turned_MD
01-10-2003, 08:54 PM
Yes.......it's just another method of extracting info......I could careless if you're a soldier or a civilian....If I were back on the team, and the said person--soldier/civilian--- has important info, I will not hesitate, not even for a second to resort to torture to extract the info.............War is NOT pretty...........No one else is playing by the rules......so fuck it....
All countries resort to torture to extract info from their subjects (if the subject doesnt comply)..........

Chi
01-10-2003, 09:34 PM
I'm against the torture of any prisoners of war. A lot of the terrorists in custody aren't talking, but many of them are... without being tortured.

And, besides, torture is outlawed according to the provisions of the Geneva Convention of 1949. It's even on our military ID's.

Commando_turned_MD
01-11-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Chi@Jan 10 2003, 09:34 PM
I'm against the torture of any prisoners of war. A lot of the terrorists in custody aren't talking, but many of them are... without being tortured.

And, besides, torture is outlawed according to the provisions of the Geneva Convention of 1949. It's even on our military ID's.
I'm against the torture of any prisoners of war. A lot of the terrorists in custody aren't talking, but many of them are... without being tortured...............

[/B]Sorry, but this statement is not 100% true[/B]

And, besides, torture is outlawed according to the provisions of the Geneva Convention of 1949. It's even on our military ID's.

Doesn't mean anything at all...Usually applies to conventional forces........
Do you think the enemy is going to abide by these rules........NOPE

wylin
01-11-2003, 12:51 PM
Torture is just another way of getting information, like any side ever fallows the geneva convention...the reality of war is that if u surrender ur assed and u may or may not be treated fairly or survive.

Chi
01-11-2003, 11:58 PM
The enemy may not follow the provisions of the geneva convention, but the US is definately supposed to follow it... and I think we do. I remember it being drilled into me... ethics during war... you don't shoot civilians... you don't torture POW's...

I'm against the torture of any prisoners of war. A lot of the terrorists in custody aren't talking, but many of them are... without being tortured...............

Sorry, but this statement is not 100% true[/B][/b]

How is it not true? I've read reports of prisoners talking... and helping the US stop terrorist attacks before they happen.