Saving face

[Broomer]

Now, apologies if this has been raised before, but how does people feel about saving face?
My reason for asking is simple, my parents. They never ask for help or admit fault which in the long run has cost me heaps.
So personally, I hate saving face. It doesn't mean I don't have pride, but personally, saving face isn't that important. Culturally though, I know it is.
Just interested in ideas.

[claymation]

Well, I actually don't like it either. I'm not afraid to ask assistance or admit fault. But out of respect, I almost always allow the other person a back door for escape or provide the tools for one to move forward. I find myself doing stuff like this for people I don't even like.

[bingbing]

Not really specific to any cultural tho is it? Any good business person regardless of race/culture/upbringing will tell you that a) admitting to mistakes right away is always the right thing to do, and b) giving the other person an easy way out is almost always a Good Thing in the long run: You're perceived as being interested in a mutually beneficial working relationship, not short-term 'point scoring'.

[Broomer]

^^ This is an interesting point. I say interesting since in business terms, especially in Asia, giving people the ability to save face is an important facet in doing business. Diplomacy is an important thing.

I say interesting since it doesn't work in Australia. No one really cares. Doing business here is more like doing business in the wild west.

I have a little generalisation when it comes to business and it involves sheep.
(Don't worry, I'll keep it clean - promise)

Basically, there are wool growers and there's mutton. I've always seen wool growers to be wiser since they deal with the same animals for a long period of time, there's less efforts placed on breeding new stock and all they really need to worry about is that there's enough feed, they're aim is good with a rifle and pray for cold weather.

Mutton producers though, on top of everything that a wool grower needs to contend with, also needs to make sure that their stock is fit for consumption and that ther Ram is doing his bit. Also they need to make sure they don't sell off too many since they'll need to retain enough stock for breeding.

The point is that Australian businesses have a bad habit of a ripping off people and treating them like mutton thinking they'll be back for seconds. There is no to very little understanding of the importance of giving their customer face which in the long run will cost us as nation in the future I feel.

There is an over confidence right now that is erring on the dangerous, and if you've been in this country long enough to know, would result in something fairly cataclysmic in the future.

[MilkeeRips]

i see "saving face" almost as a form of emotional immaturity, if we define "saving face" as never admitting fault or asking for help.

This behavior is prevalent in all peoples, but from my experience, it's definitely more pronounced in Asian cultures, especially Asian males. I used to be like that, but I just realized it's out of concern for my ego that I try to "save face." But it's ultimately unhealthy.

An extreme example is Kim Jung Il. I mean, the dude totally wrecked NK and yet, he's saving face, turning down food aid and letting his people starve. I think they call it "Juche" rather than saving face.

People need to just chillax and take a milky rip. Makes you forget all about saving face and other neuroticisms.

[Broomer]

^^ Interesting.
Personally do you see it as a strength or a weakness?
Me? A weakness. But that's only from my own experiences.

[SunWuKong]

An extreme example is Kim Jung Il. I mean, the dude totally wrecked NK and yet, he's saving face, turning down food aid and letting his people starve. I think they call it "Juche" rather than saving face.

Considering the historical relationships of Korea with its neighbours, I don't think it's surprising that the concept of Juche was created.

[drydem]

Saving Face (or Keeping up with Appearances or Maintaining one's honor) is important concept in reinforcing a class/feudal/Caste systems and can be a signficant factor in negotiations in a competition/conflict/zero-sum marketplace when one's social status bears strongly on one's ability to achieve a favorable position. It is less important when social status are less important to achieving and maintaining a relationship.

[Broomer]

^^ Interesting, so end of the day, this is a weakness?
Point been that if party A is interested in saving face and party B isn't, then wouldn't be in party B's best interest to exploit that fact to the max?
End of the day, if party A is more interested in saving face, then would it logical to expect that they would expend their efforts in saving face and any victory that they might have may well be empty.
Having said that though, I guess it also does make sense that if the battleground is based on caste, then yes, saving face is important. Problem is though, how often do we get a scenario these days where caste or class is of any importance.
Not too long ago, a guy like me can't walk into some of the hotels that I stay in regularly. These days, I walk through the door in a tacky T shirt, thongs and shorts.

[BlueFairy]

I do not like the idea of saving face. I dont think you really are saving face but cowering. By looking at problems face on allows you tackle the issue at hand. You will even eventually be able to rise above your own self and see more objectively to deal and be a more healthy productive and bigger person.

[zero]

Ann Coulter can get the fu6ck off Asian Aryan genital interiors and her coherts are doing the streets, raping and flogging. these are all girls who are marrying well and well heeled and when tarce the origin of money flow they are embezzled from Asians they kill, butcher, cannibalize and turn them into powder. They have industrial strength kitchen adjacent to MetroNorth and LIRR tracks/rail road stops. If you hard their skin/hide/cartridge is melting and drooping and closing in and they look chinky and leppers. The attack high achieving integrated "attractive" Co-eds who study hard and perform well, get counsling from their faculty advisors, go to church and learn skills like knitting, cooking and cleaning b/c Ann Coulter wants to feel superior and she doen't know the difference btw right and wrong b/c she's white and now she wants to be a Japanese princess to the emperor on throne to test how much "those JAPS" know of her misconducts and criminal, underground activities.

[Broomer]

I do not like the idea of saving face. I dont think you really are saving face but cowering. By looking at problems face on allows you tackle the issue at hand. You will even eventually be able to rise above your own self and see more objectively to deal and be a more healthy productive and bigger person.

That's the point.
It's been a slow road with my own parents and now they understand. In a way, the dodgy builders I went with has been the catalyst that I need to get my parents to change their attitude.
In the past, in an effort to save face, they'll let things go and not speak up. They now realised that's not the way to go. Principle is principle, money is money and crooked builders like that deserves to have their nuts kicked in.