any hapa lawyers out there

[SecretAsianMan]

Hello,

Does anyone know of a lawyer who will help (pro bono not necessary) me on an issue of employment law. I work at a company who will not recognize me as a minority. Other attorneys I've contacted say I don't look asian even though my mother is pure Japanese.

Yeah, my company is one of those that's all good old boy which I guess is unheard of these days. It's amazing what they do with complete impunity.

Tired of hearing about how asians just don't stand up when I've been doing this for the last two decades.

thanks,
zipididodad@aol.com

[Sunflare]

Check your inbox. I sent you a PM with persons you can contact.

[LaiSteve66]

Why do you need your employer to recognize you as a minority? Also, good ol' boy networks and companies are more common than you think.

[Craig]

A number of years ago, I got an email from a manager which I probably shouldn't have. It was during the previous downturn, and I was out of work, but the manager was trying to help me get onto a project so she was shopping out my resume. She was commenting on how I was shortlisted for some position and it included details of the new hires of some group. Of those new hires, one of them was listed as a "diversity candidate". I think the company was bending the rules since I don't think that category was supposed to apply toward Asians (it looked like a Vietnamese name), but maybe certain groups are separated out in California (I'm assuming the person was Asian by the name, but I guess it could have been half-black / half-Vietnamese, etc.). However, that being said, I remember hearing quiet a few stories (from Asian, Black, Hispanic & Native American) about how there was quite a lot of open resistance well into the 80s/early 90s at hiring non-white engineers (yes, in California). End of story, I guess it sometimes looks good (or their may be some time of backdoor benefits) to have a 'token' non-threatening member of group X, Y, Z; I have certainly seen more than my share of complete white looking 'Hispanics' being over promoted because they looked completely white, but could also be considered 'Hispanic'.

[sandra]

why do you need a hapa lawyer? i'm technically hapa and i'm a lawyer, but i can't help you.

[Sunflare]

Why do you need your employer to recognize you as a minority?

I asked similar questions in another thread in this sub-forum and this was the answer I received. This definitely makes sense:

Maybe most of them aren't mixed between multiple non-white groups, but between a white and non-white group. They want to help make things better for the non-white group (more representation, more accountability, etc.). They probably don't want to help empower whitey any more in this society.

So my guess is that this is where SecretAsianMan is at. Me too for that matter, although in a different way. From a subjective POV, many mixed Asian-Americans in general wish simply to be recognized as Asian-American persons, not what everybody else in society thinks we should see ourselves as.

But then again, yeah, why do we all Asian-Americans and others need to all be thrown into this 'minority' category? We're just people just like everybody else.

Edit: Sorry Craig for digging up 'old dirt' per say , but I thought this was a very relevant point to this particular discussion. Better I quote it rather then rephrasing it myself.

[Andrew Lin]

Some happas I know look full caucasian. This might not be the best solution, but it may be possible for you to change the way you look so that you pass for white.

[Arex]

^ Yes, just don't go overboard like MJ, may he rest in peace.

I don't think you need an Asian or Hapa lawyer if you want to bring a discrimination case. In fact, depending on where and against whom a case is filed, some might say that it's better to have an attorney that a jury will see eye to eye with. An Asian lawyer representing an Asian client in a discrimination suit against white defendants to a white conservative jury may not go over as well as if the attorney was also white.

Of course, this is somewhat of cynical viewpoint, and you have to weigh that against the fact the white attorney may not be able to fully empathize with your claims, and hiring a white attorney will deprive an Asian attorney of work (if our own kind won't hire us, who will?).

[Andrew Lin]

All things being equal a white attorney might be more convincing to a jury if they are white, but an asian or hapa lawyer might care more and give a more convincing case.

[SunWuKong]

All things being equal a white attorney might be more convincing to a jury if they are white, but an asian or hapa lawyer might care more and give a more convincing case.

then obviously you need a white-looking hapa. a "secret Asian man", if you will.

[SecretAsianMan]

I appreciate such a quick reply to my question. I was hesitant to post this question since it was such a "down" subject. Sunflare and Craig capture some of my concerns. I work at a "government" site where diversity is really not much more than making sure certain quotas are filled. However, "whites" rule. I've seen it during hiring where minority resumes are rejected (Indian and "pure" asian names are obvious). This is not just my POV; others have also acknowledged it. As to diversity, yes,..we do have many asian scientists but they all seem ubiquitously, to have pretty poor English skills, to the point that there is always a "white" champion who represents them (even writes papers and gives talks based upon their work). There are few, to no, American-born asians (yes, I speakie English very well) at higher-levels in the organization, we typically hire American-born minorities who do NOT have degrees and thus, are only qualified to "support" work for degreed white professionals. We have no black minority professionals, nor few hispanic professionals. One of the earliest "hispanics" was actually from Iraq,..our center director would often chuckle at center meetings that he was our first "hispanic" since he had dark skin. Obviously, to the few in the audience who are minorities, this is very grating,..but the rest of the "white" community finds this humorous. For the last 10 years or so, I have asserted that I am a "minority" only because of the dichotomy in the lab, i.e., in truth I should have the same ability to hire as my "white" peers (there is no doubt regarding my work that I am at least as "qualified" as them - I'm being quite generous here particularly since some of my "white" peers aren't degreed, some even got PhD's through the mail). I was the first scientist in my organization to bring in minority students (PhD's, grad students) but wasn't allowed to hire them. Now, I don't bother,..just sit back, watch my peers bring in temporary "minorities" with no intention of actually hiring them.

And, of course, I recognize that networks and good-old boys exist; my field is nothing but that. However, after 20 years in my field, I just wanted to think that someday, that might change. It's tiring to see white guys advance with little more than a B.S. when I had to get a Ph.D. to work for a white guy who got his degree in the mail. When I retire, I will write about my experiences so that maybe people will realize that I wasn't playing the "race" card for personal gain, but rather because it was the right thing to do. Scientific research is not what many would think. Those who are recognized are not the ones who did the work,...just like those who rode the early transcontinental trains were not the ones who placed (and died for) the tracks.

Thanks again for the seriousness of the replies. I really appreciate it again. I will follow up on some of these emails,..will also check my personal mailbox Sunflare.

SAM

[Sunflare]

Got your message. Your welcome SecretAsianMan. Those contacts were the most high profile persons of mixed Asian-American descent I could possibly think of that may be in the position to give you the insight on race relations and employment that you need. Good luck and feel free to let us know how things work out.

[goodintentions]

I know my response is a bit late, but I'll post it anyway.

When I was in college, my roommate and I used to be so annoyed at the guy living next door to us. He had this loudest alarm that played heavy metal every morning. But that wasn't the problem. The problem was he wasn't in his room half of the time. So, we'd be hearing his heavy metal music at about 6 in the morning every freakin' morning until whatever time he got back, usually around 9 or so.

We tried to reason with him. We talked to him many times. We posted messages on his door. We even tried to threaten him. Finally, right before we went to the RA to complain about it, I thought I'd try one more time. But this time, I asked one of my lady friends to talk to him. She went and asked him nicely to not have his alarm go off during days he's not even in his room.

It never happened again. This one girl with her girlish voice was all it took for this guy to stop using his annoying alarm clock.

The point is if you're going to find a lawyer for your case, it's best to find the right face. This is people charged with hate crimes usually have black lawyers. If you get an asian looking lawyer, good luck with winning the case.

[drydem]

I know my response is a bit late, but I'll post it anyway.

When I was in college, my roommate and I used to be so annoyed at the guy living next door to us. He had this loudest alarm that played heavy metal every morning. But that wasn't the problem. The problem was he wasn't in his room half of the time. So, we'd be hearing his heavy metal music at about 6 in the morning every freakin' morning until whatever time he got back, usually around 9 or so.

We tried to reason with him. We talked to him many times. We posted messages on his door. We even tried to threaten him. Finally, right before we went to the RA to complain about it, I thought I'd try one more time. But this time, I asked one of my lady friends to talk to him. She went and asked him nicely to not have his alarm go off during days he's not even in his room.

It never happened again. This one girl with her girlish voice was all it took for this guy to stop using his annoying alarm clock.

The point is if you're going to find a lawyer for your case, it's best to find the right face. This is people charged with hate crimes usually have black lawyers. If you get an asian looking lawyer, good luck with winning the case.


it's not the skin color of the lawyer
that matters. It's experience and the
committment to his client and his case
that matters. It's not the girlish voice
but the threat of eviction or financial
penalities that usually get a renter to
play nice. Judging a person soley by his
or her appearance is shallow and can be
misleading.

[goodintentions]

it's not the skin color of the lawyer
that matters. It's experience and the
committment to his client and his case
that matters. It's not the girlish voice
but the threat of eviction or financial
penalities that usually get a renter to
play nice. Judging a person soley by his
or her appearance is shallow and can be
misleading.

Yeah, and the agency I work for is suppose to be blind of sexual orientation. I love the fact that some people still live in fantasy land.

[drydem]

Hello,

Here's my intro. I'm hapa, living in Colorado. My dad married my mom in Hawaii on his way back from Korea (he was a serviceman). Pretty typical I guess. I'm a scientist (didn't know better) who is pretty well known in my field. I am trying to connect with a lawyer. Yeah, I'm one of those model minorities (typical). I'm near retiring and have several decades of experience understanding the glass ceiling. I've spent years trying to understand (typical again) how to be one of the boys and guess I've decided that in my business that was never an option. At my age, I've come to realize that being told "it will come" really meant "that will never happen in a million years".

I keep reading about how we (meaning Asian minorities) don't fight back and then when I google for terms like "hapa lawyer", I get websites for sushi. Seems like blacks have succeeded in a lot of scientific/technical areas and googling "black lawyer" confirms why.

If anyone knows of a lawyer who helps hapa's confront glass ceiling issues, particuarly in scientific fields please let me know.


You need to talk to a lawyer that specializes in
employment discrimination in your state. In particular
that lawyer needs to understand the industrial
employment sector that are in, e.g. scientific
research, to determine if your situation has any
legal standing. It may also help if you can find
collaborating evidence in your workplace with other
minorities - so talking to other co-workers (and
recently retired workers from your workplace) about
your situation may shed additional enlightment
about your overall work place environment.

[Arex]

it's not the skin color of the lawyer
that matters. It's experience and the
committment to his client and his case
that matters. It's not the girlish voice
but the threat of eviction or financial
penalities that usually get a renter to
play nice. Judging a person soley by his
or her appearance is shallow and can be
misleading.Maybe in an ideal world...

[SunWuKong]

actually i'm serious. if he wants someone who can personally understand his situation, and can appear trustworthy to a white jury, then he should get a white-looking hapa lawyer.

[sandra]

it's not the skin color of the lawyer
that matters. It's experience and the
committment to his client and his case
that matters. It's not the girlish voice
but the threat of eviction or financial
penalities that usually get a renter to
play nice. Judging a person soley by his
or her appearance is shallow and can be
misleading.

i agree with this. not sure why others don't.

[MarshalStealth]

i agree with this. not sure why others don't.
It depends greatly on the surroundings of the situation. What works in one region might not work in another region. The key is how well one assesses the situation and determines whether he/she has to adjust their objective based on the situation.

[sandra]

actually i'm serious. if he wants someone who can personally understand his situation, and can appear trustworthy to a white jury, then he should get a white-looking hapa lawyer.

i'd beg to differ. most jurors are not retarded and can judge an attorney's accountability or credibility by how well-versed he is on the law and the case and common sense. my experience seems to indicate the color of the attorney's skin has little to do with anything. judges, on the other hand...

[goodintentions]

i agree with this. not sure why others don't.

It's not that we don't agree with him. It's that he's caricatured what we've said.

(1) Nobody has ever said that secretasianman should get an asian looking lawyer and totally disregard the lawyer's qualifications.

(2) We live in the real world. I would be as bold as say that most people still judge based on looks whether they're willing to admit it or not.

(3) What we are saying is that he would have a better chance at winning a case like this if he gets a qualified lawyer that also happens to either be white or white-looking.

(4) Have I mentioned that we're NOT telling secretasianman to get an unqualified lawyer just because he looks white?

Get an asian lawyer for a case like that and half the time the jury will think "of course the lawyer wants to win, he's asian..." If there's anything I've learned over the years, it's that jury members are usually dumbasses.

[sandra]

Get an asian lawyer for a case like that and half the time the jury will think "of course the lawyer wants to win, he's asian..." If there's anything I've learned over the years, it's that jury members are usually dumbasses.

are you a trial atty?

[Arex]

i'd beg to differ. most jurors are not retarded and can judge an attorney's accountability or credibility by how well-versed he is on the law and the case and common sense. my experience seems to indicate the color of the attorney's skin has little to do with anything. judges, on the other hand...I'm certainly not going to quibble with Kasia on this one since she's probably got a lot more trial experience than any civil litigator ever will. So yes, the attorney's experience and understanding of the law and the actual merits of the case are the most important factors in the outcome of a particular case, but I would still tend to believe that, all else equal, a lily white, conservative jury is more likely to accept claims of discrimination (by white management) if those claims are filtered through someone who also happens to be lily white.

I mean, in theory, isn't the purpose of voir dire as much to get people onto the jury who will be biased in your client's favor (for whatever reason) as it is to remove people who will be biased against your client?

[Andrew Lin]

..our center director would often chuckle at center meetings that he was our first "hispanic" since he had dark skin. Obviously, to the few in the audience who are minorities, this is very grating,..but the rest of the "white" community finds this humorous.

I've been in this uncomfortable situation many times before. How do you react? Do you pretend to laugh along with everyone else like it's funny?

[MarshalStealth]

I've been in this uncomfortable situation many times before. How do you react? Do you pretend to laugh along with everyone else like it's funny?

If it is a business situation, stay professional. Focus on not offering any emotional display and remind your associates that they are there to complete an objective.

[Sunflare]

I've been in this uncomfortable situation many times before. How do you react? Do you pretend to laugh along with everyone else like it's funny?

I agree with MarshalStealth. What he's talking about is passive-agressiveness.

In a professional scenerio when you are dealing with persons with displays of racial microagression many times it's better to remain silent and not laugh along with them on their stupidity. That way you are giving the obvious silent message that whatever they may be laughing at is not funny. It's better then confronting them.

Outside that scenario and setting if someone calls you a racial slur or makes references to something that is racist, (on the street, club, bar, supermarket, etc. whatever) then that's a different story. Cuss them out.

[MarshalStealth]

I agree with MarshalStealth. What he's talking about is passive-agressiveness.

Outside that scenario and setting if someone calls you a racial slur or makes references to something that is racist, (on the street, club, bar, supermarket, etc. whatever) then that's a different story. Cuss them out.

What a waste of breath. ... Let the fools self-destruct. ... In life, one cannot make chicken salad out of chicken waste.

[Sunflare]

What a waste of breath. ... Let the fools self-destruct. ... In life, one cannot make chicken salad out of chicken waste.

I started to literally cringe when you made that powerful analogy using 'chicken salad out of chicken droppings'. Yuck.

But seriously, there's a time for everything. I mean yeah, a person would want to do whatever it takes to avoid confrontations with idiots with biased views of persons of color, however I don't think a person will necessarily get locked up or something over simply expressing themselves. Me personally, depending on the scenario I am in, I may either ignore the person who talks trash to me or about my peoples, or tell them to go fuck themselves in a minute.