Who Am I?

[j&j2]

Who am I? Denying and discovering racial identity
by Karin Lin, ARP guest contributor

“How do you pass on your ethnic heritage to your children when you grew up in an immigrant household focusing 100 percent of your energy on making yourself as mainstream American as possible?”

This was the question posed in a recent New York Times article and one that, as a second-generation Asian married to a Caucasian, I struggle with frequently.

I grew up in a university town in Kansas as the only child of Taiwanese immigrants. Assimilation was a matter of survival, and I learned from an early age that my acceptance depended on my ability to act as white as possible. I denied my race and ethnicity whenever I could, even to the point of repeating playground taunts like, “Chinese, Japanese, dirty knees, look at these!” without realizing that they were directed at me and my few fellow Asians.

Trying to be white was not as difficult for me as it might have been for some. I was “blessed” with fair skin, a double eyelid, a Western first name, and the ability to speak unaccented English. When my classmates would ask me to teach them words of Mandarin or Taiwanese, I demurred, not wanting to call attention to the fact that I and my parents spoke such an “exotic” language. I tried, and mostly succeeded, to convince myself that I was just like my white friends.

Though I didn’t fully understand it as a child, I also developed a perverse self-hatred of myself and my race, absorbing the message that my ethnicity was a burden and that my social acceptance was a fragile gift that could be revoked at any time. When a sixth-grade classmate and friend, in a jealous snit that I’d been chosen for a nationwide talent search, remarked, “No offense, but you and Brian [a fellow Taiwanese-American] don’t really belong here”, I nodded—yes, nodded! I didn’t really belong here, but if I was unobtrusive and tried as hard as I could to be like everyone else, maybe they’d let me stay.

In adolescence, I was inevitably attracted to white guys. When the interest wasn’t reciprocated, I had to wonder if I was being rejected for my person or my race—but I didn’t dwell on the idea too long, because it was too hard to accept that there might be something about myself that was anathema to my romantic life, something that I couldn’t change no matter how desperately I wanted to. There were men, too, who were attracted to me because I was Asian, but I didn’t dwell on that, either. I took what I could get.

By the time I got to college, my “act white and admit to being Asian only when absolutely necessary” mentality was ingrained. Even at MIT, with its huge percentage of Asian students. I had no use for, and was somewhat baffled by, the multitude of Asian religious and cultural groups around campus. When my new (white) boyfriend revealed me to his mother and she grumbled, “Well, at least she’s not black,” I didn’t see the blatant racism in her remark; my only response was relief. Yes, thank goodness I wasn’t black; I was “only” Asian. I was close enough to white to be acceptable.

Eventually I married a different white man, and we had two beautiful daughters. In the back of my mind it nagged at me a little that they would end up more white than I am—I feared my Asian heritage would be diluted into nonexistence within a few generations—but I didn’t think there was anything I could do about it.

Then, a little over a year ago, I was introduced to the anti-racism movement, and my world changed completely.

For the first time ever, I understood why I’d been trying my whole life to be something I wasn’t. Why would I want to be Asian when all around me were images of white beauty and white power? Why would I honor my ethnic heritage when all the heroes of my English books and history books were white? The problem wasn’t me. This realization was accompanied by anger, relief, and determination. I immersed myself in the writings of minority and anti-racist authors. I read Paul Kivel’s Uprooting Racism and Beverly Daniel Tatum’s Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria? I devoured Phoebe Eng’s Warrior Lessons and Frank Wu’s Yellow: Race In America Beyond Black and White. I had a new world view that was tremendously empowering because it gave me a reason to value myself for who I was, not for my degree of success in pretending to be white.

I feel very fortunate that I came into this understanding early enough in my life for it to positively affect my daughters’ identities. Because I can now embrace my Taiwanese heritage, they will learn to do the same. They won’t have to look in the mirror and hate what they see, or be embarrassed to speak another language with their grandparents. They will have books with pictures of kids who look like them and learn that people of all colors made great contributions to history.

As for the original question posed at the beginning of this column, it is hard to pass on my ethnic heritage to my children when I spent the first thirty years of my life trying to deny it. It feels a little contrived to be learning Taiwanese history now from books, and to be studying Mandarin formally instead of having learned it all as a child. But I’m in what Tatum calls the “immersion/emersion” stage of racial identity development, and I hope my daughters are reaping the benefits. We’re lucky to live in the San Francisco Bay Area where there are many Asians. I’ve joined the Asian/Pacific Islander identity group within my mostly white church and an organization for Taiwanese American professionals. There’s even a Taiwanese American center less than five miles from my home where the girls take Mandarin and Taiwanese lessons once a week, and where my family has been warmly embraced by the mostly first-generation community.

And we’re all going back to Taiwan next month—for me, it will be the first time in eleven years. I can’t wait.

Karin Lin is a Silicon Valley software engineer and mom to two girls, ages 5 and 3. She is an anti-racist activist within the Unitarian Universalist church, an amateur classical violinist, and a language lover. Karin resides in the East San Francisco Bay with her family.

http://www.antiracistparent.com/2008/09/22/who-am-i-denying-and-discovering-racial-identity/

As these situations go, Lin's story is pretty typical.

However, while it is nice to see that she has become "self-aware", I don't think she completely "gets it" yet.

[thaite]

yup. typical. good to see she's on her road to recovery.

[BillBlythe]

you know, just after this biden/palin debate thing i realized that as an asian man i can't say a damn thing for fear of being perceived a certain way. we all know that most of america wanted to see biden grab palin and shake the shit out of her and tell her she's a dumb bitch and maybe slap her back to wasilla but he simply can't do it because it's all going to be about perception. so he's gotta hold it in, be professional, focus on the task at hand.

so, again, as an asian man, i can't say a damn thing about this woman, regardless of how true they might be, regardless of how many people would want me to say those very things to her if they were given the chance and not be judged, i'm still bound by social law.

I will say one thing though. I read one of her responses to someone posing a question to her. Her answer is so typical of every asian woman married to a white guy that it evokes all sorts of violent feelings.

"so yes, good for her. she's teaching her children mandarin and accepts her asian heritage now..and blah blah blah."

[AngryABCGirl]

All the bolding of the article makes it quite distracting to read. I learned to highlight in school long ago, kthanks.

Pretty typical story. Oh god, she's like my new neighbor, and she's a Taiwanese American woman. Meh.

But truth to be told, I can't really criticize her either, as much as we're the same on paper (because we're the same ethnicity)- it's obvious she and I aren't cut from the same cloth, and we could never walk in each others shoes. For all the haters of her out there, including myself a bit, she's just a product of her environment like anyone else. There's plenty of Asian guys like her for good measure.

[Banana]

If there is any irony in the world, she'll go to Taiwan and be treated as a white person, something she always wanted.

[kimpossible]

Banana>That's pretty much the foreign passport line every time we go. Not to mention the waiting room for int'l flight transfers at Narita (bound for Taipei). If my husband had time I'd pop him on here to say something. I think he's starting to feel it now where he was previously uncaring towards it because he actually voiced slight feeling of self-awareness of being amongst so many mixed couples.

ABC> When I mentioned that it gets weird with some women now that we're at that stage in life where everyone is married and kids. Obviously, you're Chinese and I'm kinda Japanese on a stealth basis but nonetheless, I do know what you're saying. Not like you would, of course, but it's still there.

As for the author's attitude I can recognize much of the her introspection including how she thinks she's going to 'help' her daughters with it. When I get a chance I'll tell you all a story later. I would never have done it while my mother is alive because she would have forbid me to say anything about it but she's passed for a while and it's my life, my perspective, my story, and I feel strongly that it's something that should see the light of day if only in a semi-anonymous post on the internet.

[LaiSteve66]

I'm glad we don't have people like that in Houston.

[kimpossible]

As I was apparently smoking crack during my previous post in order to garble my native language that badly I'll try to put down the pipe from now on.

[cloudzero]

You'd think cloudzero learned his lesson reading j&j2's other threads. Here he loses another knuckle as he creates a crawl space on his wall. Thank you sentence number two.

[J Honcanese]

even to the point of repeating playground taunts like, “Chinese, Japanese, dirty knees, look at these!” without realizing that they were directed at me and my few fellow Asians.Everyone in my primary school knew this rhyme and the actions that followed it. What was totally ironic was that we were mostly Chinese - roughly 85% - and the rest were mainly hapas. I never realised how racist it was until I got to high school.

[Sunflare]

Not that I'm saying that this article should'nt be posted, it *should* be posted for the sake of continued awareness of things within the Asian American communities,

. . . . But man, articles like this is like pouring salt into the wound.

[j&j2]

For all the haters of her out there, including myself a bit, she's just a product of her environment like anyone else. There's plenty of Asian guys like her for good measure.

I don't think anyone is "hating" on her - well, at least I'm not.

But that is to say, she isn't beyond criticism or remarks.

And yes - while environmental factors are probably the biggest shapers for what the author and many other Asian-Americans go through w/ regard how they view themselves and their race/ethnicity, it seems to me that she totally places blame on those factors and tries to totally put herself off the hook.

Now, I'm not saying that everyone should be self-analytical and retrospective, esp. during their insecure teenage years/early adulthood, but
a little more of that could have prompted her to go down the path of discovery earlier than it actually did.

Furthermore, I don't think one has to learn/engage in one's ethnic language/cultural practices for one to have a healthy self-esteem and identity.

There are plenty of Asian-Ams who are fluent in/proud of their ancestral language/culture, but aren't exactly proud to be "Asian-American".

On the flip-side, there are Asian-Ams who are totally-"whitewashed", but are quite confident/proud of being Asian-American.

[QUOTE=Sunflare;552769]Not that I'm saying that this article should'nt be posted, it *should* be posted for the sake of continued awareness of things within the Asian American communities,

. . . . But man, articles like this is like pouring salt into the wound.[/QUOTE
I didn't post this to pour salt on wounds - but merely to point out what I've been saying all along.

The problem isn't AFs who only want to date/marry WMs (or AMs who only want to date/marry WFs), but how many Asian-Ams view themselves and their race/ethnicity - which has everything to do w/ their self-esteem and identity (clearly, the author here had both self-esteem and identity issues).

While the whole IR dating thing gets the most attention, it really just is a SYMPTOM arising from the underlying problem.

[Banana]

I wanted to point out that from all the personal stories I've read about Asian American identity and interracial dating, Asian women are just as insecure as Asian men. The reason why there are so much more Asian women dating white men than vice versa is because Asian women can act on that insecurity while it's more difficult for Asian men.

[Sunflare]

Not that I'm saying that this article should'nt be posted, it *should* be posted for the sake of continued awareness of things within the Asian American communities,

. . . . But man, articles like this is like pouring salt into the wound

I didn't post this to pour salt on wounds - but merely to point out what I've been saying all along.

Well I look at this this way -- We all watch the news and see what going on in our nation all the time. We may read hear or watch stories on crime and corruption that may make people squirm, manifest feelings of fear, unduly concern, anxiety, etc.

But regardless, it is making people more aware of what is happening every day. Which is nothing wrong in itself. But after a while reading article after article on heinous crimes, corruption and so forth, can tear some people down.

Well, such is the case here with this article. It's a good post in my opinion and more articles like this should be posted, but enough of these articles can really make a signifigantly negative impact on some Asian men and how they view themselves and their Asian female counterparts. Hence some of the emotional comments as of late with your recent posts.

I always go by this when I read posts of sobering articles on AA identity like this one . . .

"Don't kill the messenger."

While the whole IR dating thing gets the most attention, it really just is a SYMPTOM arising from the underlying problem The reason why there are so much more Asian women dating white men than vice versa is because Asian women can act on that insecurity while it's more difficult for Asian men.

That insecurity some Asian men can have and the low self esteem issues they suffer from as a direct consequence of IR issues can really become self defeating. They begin to fall into the background of the dating scene cowering in fear over the false perception that they are doomed because of articles like this that gives further in their minds and hearts the stereotypical illusion that every single Asian woman in the country wants a white man, that Asian men are inferior to the white man, and will never get none, when that is not entirely true. . . .

It's a friggin' lie.

Hey, if an Asian man who is having difficulties in dating wants to break through those barriers and do something about issues like this he has to make changes in himself , his whole outlook on life and his whole lifestyle even, preferences, and habits. As well as his appearance. Whatever it takes to improve his own dating situation. Once his dating situation is such that he finds success then I would say that he has done something good towards the IR issue.

If a person does'nt like what's going on in his particular dating situation, he may not be able to change the mechanisms behind these problems but he can change his own personal dating life and be content and happy. As a result too, he did something towards this particular social challenge that Asian men deal with.

In a nutshell:

If you men want the girl of your dreams, such as this heartbreaker:

http://www.wordpress.tokyotimes.org/archives/aki_hoshino13.jpg
Aki Hoshino, popular Japanese model

Then you gotta do what you have to do to improve yourselves as Asian men so that you can be that man of *her* wildest desires. It's a two way street when it comes to dating and sexual relationships.

And it's possible. Oh yes it is. Anything is possible.

That's my philosophy I follow now.

[AngryABCGirl]

I wanted to point out that from all the personal stories I've read about Asian American identity and interracial dating, Asian women are just as insecure as Asian men. The reason why there are so much more Asian women dating white men than vice versa is because Asian women can act on that insecurity while it's more difficult for Asian men.

Plus I think some men in general, regardless of race, don't mind dating a woman whose insecure. But boys let me tell you this, women universally hate dating insecure guys.

[TB4000]

Plus I think some men in general, regardless of race, don't mind dating a woman whose insecure. But boys let me tell you this, women universally hate dating insecure guys.

Insecure girls are easy. That's pretty much the consensus in our brains. Sometimes it's true, sometimes it ain't.

[cloudzero]

women universally hate dating insecure guys.

i certainly hope there is a difference between insecure and openly-insecure

[nameless]

^the latter means it takes them less time to dump you.

[Sunflare]

Insecure girls are easy. That's pretty much the consensus in our brains. Sometimes it's true, sometimes it ain't.

With girls in general, that seems to be true. We all tend to want to gravitate towards insecure girls. It must be some sort of genetic bent or something.

But it's not exactly true with most Asian girls from my personal experience. A dude of color has to build a friendship with the girl first before she will be willing to take the relationship on into a serious intimate relationship.

Right now, I'm dating this really hot Asian girl. It's going to take alot of patience on my part to make this work. She likes me but she's afraid of getting into a serious relationship too fast, since she really been through some bad experiences.

And yeah, definitely, guys need self esteem and confidence to attract a good woman. I can't even emphasize more how important that is. Girls want a man that they can confide in and trust, *not* the opposite.

[didu]

Plus I think some men in general, regardless of race, don't mind dating a woman whose insecure. But boys let me tell you this, women universally hate dating insecure guys.

What are the signs of insecurity? What are the criteria that you girls use to judge whether a guy is insecure?

[AngryABCGirl]

^ Just look at what the guys post on this board.

[didu]

^^ touché , i knew you'd say that.

[Banana]

^ Just look at what the guys post on this board.

How do you talk about it without one looking insecure? That's like trying to talk about how people suffer from racism with white people and them just playing it off as "there he goes as an angry black person playing the race card."

[cloudzero]

^ Just look at what the guys post on this board.

A guy's confidence, like any other, can only take so much beating. A reasonable guy would change his mindset given time and some form of reassurance. If you were called fat and ugly by the next 5 people you meet, I doubt you would be unaffected.

[nameless]

How do you talk about it without one looking insecure? That's like trying to talk about how people suffer from racism with white people and them just playing it off as "there he goes as an angry black person playing the race card."

Talking doesn't get shit done anyway. White people discuss racism with you to validate their own beliefs or refute yours; majority of the time you won't change their minds about anything, so don't reveal your hand.

Likewise, a girl asking you about IR or whatever AM issues only cares enough to find out that you don't think she's a sellout and that you have some confidence. Tell her what she wants to hear until you get her in bed.

Seriously, are you guys really bringing this shit up IRL?

[kimpossible]

It's times like this I know I don't get the Asian American male psyche, as much as I shoot the shit with you. You all got some serious baggage with regard to females. Fuck, we/they are guilty unless sucking your cock. Probably fair to say that the majority of any acceptance I get from any of you is because my spouse is an Asian male. Otherwise I'd probably be told to fuck off around here more often than I already am.

[cloudzero]

^I'd like to see how you would handle things if you were born with shallow eye sockets and testicles.

[kimpossible]

Well, I do have one of the two.

[cloudzero]

^ewwwwwwwww

[BillBlythe]

Talking doesn't get shit done anyway. White people discuss racism with you to validate their own beliefs or refute yours; majority of the time you won't change their minds about anything, so don't reveal your hand.

Likewise, a girl asking you about IR or whatever AM issues only cares enough to find out that you don't think she's a sellout and that you have some confidence. Tell her what she wants to hear until you get her in bed.

Seriously, are you guys really bringing this shit up IRL?

I wonder how we do talk about racism in these modern times anyway? I get the feeling that most of the stuff we talk about has to do with an atmospheric feeling rather than "real" physical aspects of racism that we can see with our eyes. There's no Whites Only signs and public washrooms or lynchings that we can point to as evidence of discrimination. Racism is so indirect and unparticular that talking about is often a fruitless endeavor.

Holy shit that was emo of me.

Holy shit that was emo of me.

[Sunflare]

Likewise, a girl asking you about IR or whatever AM issues only cares enough to find out that you don't think she's a sellout and that you have some confidence

Very true.

An Asian man who is confident in himself would not be overly concerned and heated over issues like this in the first place. Instead such a man would be smart about the underlying situation here and actually do something about his own dating life to even the odds.

If every Asian man was like this, then I would imagine alot will be accomplished, and not at the expense of further creating this gender gap in the Asian American population.

Edit: Or on this forum for that matter.

[kimpossible]

Does it not mean more to you all that somewhere like here where regular, self representing and expressing women are, that every last one of them is with an Asian male? Do you not see the growing number of married guys here? There'd be more if guys were more into marriage, I imagine. This doesn't even take into account the guys with girlfriends, SOs, FTFs, etc.

[Banana]

I really hate the "well, if you pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, you wouldn't be living in a shack right now" rebuttal because all it does is put the negative onus on the person pitching the complaint. It's the cheap way to respond and it just reeks of condecension. Please don't use it on me.

Look, the insecurity comes from somewhere. It didn't just magically appear out of thin air. Why is it ok for Asian women to be insecure, for example, with their weight but it's wrong for an Asian man to be insecure about his sexuality and sense of worth when he's constantly attacked in pop culture and in such a blatant way as Asian women and their dating habits?

Jesus Christ, people act like these problems can be turned on and off like a light switch.

[Sunflare]

*sigh*

This thread is becoming a total mess.

@ Banana: Good point.

[kimpossible]

I really hate the "well, if you pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, you wouldn't be living in a shack right now" rebuttal because all it does is put the negative onus on the person pitching the complaint. It's the cheap way to respond and it just reeks of condecension. Please don't use it on me.

Look, the insecurity comes from somewhere. It didn't just magically appear out of thin air. Why is it ok for Asian women to be insecure, for example, with their weight but it's wrong for an Asian man to be insecure about his sexuality and sense of worth when he's constantly attacked in pop culture and in such a blatant way as Asian women and their dating habits?

Jesus Christ, people act like these problems can be turned on and off like a light switch.

Can I answer this? If not I accept it.

I agree with what you said and with all due respect I think a couple of points are being missed... and I don't think it's pull yourself up by the bootstraps. Please understand I'm not targeting you but am using your post to respond.

Do Asian women dating out exist? Yes, we all agree on that. Do self-hating Asian women exist? Yes, we all agree on that. Do Asian guys get the shit end of the stick in mainstream society? Yes, we all agree on that.

What I am saying at least, ABC and other ladies can yay or nay on her own, is that those women and the portrayal of such is amplified beyond true numbers. If anything, I believe stats are showing an increase in Asian/Asian marriages and Asian male/non-Asian female.

So the shit talking about how Asian women are selling out and decimating Asian men is piling up around the very women who are going WTF you're preaching to the faithful, son. So to speak.

I believe that I am coming off dismissive if you say so, I trust you wouldn't say it for the hell of it but if you could take a small bit of my point I would appreciate it because it's frustrating us as well. It's like we're the whipping boy for what someone else has done and the representation of the wrong doing is larger than its actual existence.

As for Asian women and weight I don't think they wholesale blame it on all men, do they? I thought a lot of the eating disorder disproportionately affecting large numbers of Asian American females with negative body image was based on race and involved a desire to be taller, larger breasted and have socially accepted features which manifested mainly into anorexia and bulimia.

*sigh*

This thread is becoming a total mess.


I don't think so yet. Though some of you might be pissed. I know I'm not and just may not be aware that you're pissed.

[snailpoo]

Not to pile on but,

It's times like this I know I don't get the Asian American male psyche, as much as I shoot the shit with you. You all got some serious baggage with regard to females. Fuck, we/they are guilty unless sucking your cock. Probably fair to say that the majority of any acceptance I get from any of you is because my spouse is an Asian male. Otherwise I'd probably be told to fuck off around here more often than I already am.

don't lump us all together, thanks.



Carry on.

[kimpossible]

^Roger that, sir. I was also being a facetious asshole on that post to boot so I have it coming to me.

[Sunflare]

I don't think so yet. Though some of you might be pissed. I know I'm not and just may not be aware that you're pissed.

I just get sick of the overall negativity and infighting between us that surrounds threads like this sometimes. But that's just me.

I really don't know if some of the dudes ( in general, not specifically those who post on this forum ) who are concerned about IR issues, and legitimately so, really get the point sometimes about the importance of improving their own dating lives individually instead of ranting online like self made APA activists speaking with authority on the APA experience.

And on the other hand, many of the Asian gals ( again, not specifically anyone on this forum ) are straight up ignorant of the issues too and don't get the point either.

Look, all I know is that I'm going to look out for myself and do what I have to do so I can live my life according to the way I want, and date the women I truly find attractive. I always go for girls others may feel I out of my league because I got the balls to actually get off my ass and go for mines.

It's all about having a certain mindset. That's all there is to it. Everything else with hard work and determination will fall into place to get control of the circumstances we *can* control with time. And that includes our dating lives.

And hey, it's working. Myself personally, I'm truly very content and happy with my dating life as of now. Meeting ladies that truly meet my personal preferences, who are beautiful, smart, full of heart, and sweet . . . and willing to take it into a healthy sexual relationship in time. All from hard work on my own self, my perception on dating, and my life.

Don't get me wrong. I'm definitely no PUA. I'm just looking for a good woman. I'm definitely looking into even being married and raising a family one day once my career is established.

But I don't think I'm going to let certain people with their flawed opinions, society with its' status quo, the racism, and its' effects on dating and Asians, as well as, the hangups associated with this stop me.

Sometimes you can be your worst enemy. Well I learned from that and I feel I progressed beyond being bitter over this 24-7. Better to keep it focused and positive so I can reach my goals in life.

[j&j2]

Well, such is the case here with this article. It's a good post in my opinion and more articles like this should be posted, but enough of these articles can really make a signifigantly negative impact on some Asian men and how they view themselves and their Asian female counterparts. Hence some of the emotional comments as of late with your recent posts.

Sunflare - while I get the point you're trying to make, I have to disagree w/ you on this one.


That insecurity some Asian men can have and the low self esteem issues they suffer from as a direct consequence of IR issues can really become self defeating. They begin to fall into the background of the dating scene cowering in fear over the false perception that they are doomed because of articles like this that gives further in their minds and hearts the stereotypical illusion that every single Asian woman in the country wants a white man, that Asian men are inferior to the white man, and will never get none, when that is not entirely true. . . .

The AMs who think it is "hopeless" for them, think AMs are physically weaker, think AMs are doomed to just being a bunch of geekoids, etc. - generally are unaware of the forces that have made them think that way.

Hence, they usually end up blaming their problems on simply being Asian+male since that's all they know.

Hey, if an Asian man who is having difficulties in dating wants to break through those barriers and do something about issues like this he has to make changes in himself , his whole outlook on life and his whole lifestyle even, preferences, and habits. As well as his appearance. Whatever it takes to improve his own dating situation. Once his dating situation is such that he finds success then I would say that he has done something good towards the IR issue.

I agree w/ you here - but all too often, these AMs don't see an alternative (they think AM = geek) and thus, think they are doomed and thus, blame their problems solely on being Asian+male.

It's difficult to get to a point of self-improvement when there are no role models being portrayed (and when the opposite continues to be reinforced).

Plus, in order to change his mindset, an AM has to come to the realization that all the social programming that he grown up w/ is total BS (and articles like this point that out).

If a person does'nt like what's going on in his particular dating situation, he may not be able to change the mechanisms behind these problems but he can change his own personal dating life and be content and happy. As a result too, he did something towards this particular social challenge that Asian men deal with.

Sunflare - once again, this issue isn't just about dating.

There are plenty of alpha-AMs who have NO problem dating (including dating WFs) - but all too often, these alpha-AMs have the viewpoint that they are different from the "typical" AM and basically, generally look down upon other Asians.

This all goes back to the core underlying issue of self-esteem and identity.

While these Asian alpha-males may have a certain kind of self-esteem, they, all too often, have a low self-esteem w/ regard to their race + gender.


So the shit talking about how Asian women are selling out and decimating Asian men is piling up around the very women who are going WTF you're preaching to the faithful, son. So to speak.

Kim - this thread/initial post isn't about bashing AFs - but rather to look at the root causes of all the various symptoms that affect many Asian-Ams.

The same forces that affected the AF in the essay also affects AMs - where some AMs end up thinking they are "doomed"; other AMs think they are different from the "typical AM" and avoid geeky Asians (or all other Asians) like the plague; w/ others putting WFs on a pedestal and deriding AFs as being ugly, flat, etc.; and on and on...

[j&j2]

Here's the link to the NYTimes article that was the inspiration for the essay.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/07/nyregion/nyregionspecial2/07Rparent.html?ex=1378353600&en=8ab3755840ab829c&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

Here's the pertinent part about identity.

As for heritage, Ms. Liu wants to make sure that Chris understands he’s Asian-American. “One time a boy saw Christopher and said, ‘Look, a Chinese boy,” recalled Ms. Liu. “Christopher says, ‘Where?’ I want to do something to make him understand his background and make sure that he’s confident about it.” She turned to her husband and asked, “Do you care if he knows he’s Korean?”

“I don’t think I worry about it,” he said. “The thing I’m most concerned about — at some point in life, he will come to the understanding he’s not the same as everyone else. I don’t want him to be ashamed of that.” Mr. Chung said that growing up in a mostly white, blue-collar town, he worked to excel at track and football as a way of proving that he was as good as or better than other children.

Some other interesting essays that many of us can relate to...


At any rate, as he finished up, he turned his attention to me and asked: “Are you Hawaiian?”

...but I also have to say that when I have been mistaken for “Hawaiian” it’s normally older white American men whose dalliance with the South Pacific has taken the form of a trip to Oahu or Maui where I’m sure they’ve seen lots of Chinese, Japanese, and Filipino Americans who are local and hence “Hawaiian” and perhaps I do look like them. I should also add, though I’m sure you can guess, that this older man is white.

Anyway, I say: “No”

And he insists that I look Hawaiian and I shrug my shoulders and say I’m not, at which point he asks the dreaded question that ALL ASIAN AMERICANS HAVE HAD TO ANSWER AND THAT MOST OF US HATE: “Where ARE you from? Which country?”

Me (sighing inside–I mean, I just want to make 5 lousy photocopies): “I’m from the United States of America.”

Him, now a bit flustered: “No, I know that, I mean, where are your parents from…where are your people from?”

Me (not willing to give in): “California”

Him: (now he’s bemused and acting like I’m retarded rather than being frustrated by my obvious deference of his questions): “No, I mean what is your ancestry? Where are your ancestors from?”

To which I tell him that if he’s asking about my ethnic background, it’s China/Chinese.

Him: “Oh! Ni hao?”

Me (now being deliberately obtuse): “Sir, if you are inquiring as to whether I speak Cantonese or Mandarin, I do not.”

Him: (now laughing amiably because he thinks we’re having a jolly little conversation): “Oh, I’ve been to China several times and have picked up a few useful phrases. Have you ever visited China?”

Me: (now just annoyed, I mean, he’s a nice older fellow, but really, I JUST WANT TO MAKE MY PHOTOCOPIES): “No, I’ve never been to China.”

Him: (he’s now VERY SURPRISED and in ADVICE mode): “But you HAVE to go to China. It’s where your people are from!”

http://www.antiracistparent.com/2008/07/28/do-i-need-to-travel-to-china/

Here's an essay about a "This American Life" story on racial preferences for "adopting" dolls which I happened to catch earlier this year.

The 17-minute American Life story is so worth listening to (download the whole “Matchmakers” show here and then fast forward to 41:00 minutes). The narrator is a light-skinned biracial (White and Mexican) woman working as a ‘nurse’. WARNING: PLOT SPOILER AHEAD . . . The dolls/babies begin to move quickly after they are featured on a segment of the TV show ‘Rich Girls’. Most of the ‘adopting mothers’ (approximate age: 7 years old) are White. Not surprisingly (to me at least), FAO Schwartz sells out of all the White baby dolls–within weeks of Christmas. The doll factory is back-ordered until mid-January. FAO Schwartz’s doll nursery has only minority Babies of Color available for sale adoption.

After the White babies are gone, then the Asian babies sell out. Next to go are the light brown (Latino/Hispanic, Native American, multiracial?) babies. The nursery is then full of Black babies–along with one factory-rejected White doll (with melted-together fingers that make its hands look like flippers). The unsellable factory-reject White floor-model doll is purchased adopted when there is an entire ‘nursery’ full of perfect Black babies dolls available.

http://www.antiracistparent.com/2008/06/18/race-preference-in-adoption/

Ian’s mother Tina grew up in the Philippines, where dark skin tends to be looked down upon as a sign of being poor. She is educated Chinese Filipina and she migrated to Australia in 1997. I met her at a Chinese language class in 1999.

Since Justina and I separated in 2006, Ian made various comments along the lines of “I don’t like Muslims”, “I don’t like Chinese.” When I asked him why, he tends to say “My mum says they’re no good.”

http://www.antiracistparent.com/2008/06/06/ask-arp-how-do-you-combat-an-ex-spouses-racism/

A few weeks ago while watching “Dancing with the Stars,” my husband tried to get me riled up over a routine that Kristi Yamaguchi and her dance partner were performing which had him dressed in a military uniform and she, his Asian lover, swooning on his shoulder.

I had cringed inwardly when I saw the set-up, but I wanted to just enjoy the moment—just relish something for pure entertainment without the brooding presence of racial stereotypes and hegemonic ideologies.

http://www.antiracistparent.com/2008/05/19/race-and-im-running/

And then that got me thinking. It’s not that I disapprove of her dating someone who is white. Her father, my partner, is white. So why was I secretly pleased that my daughter was dating a person of color?

I have had to confront some biases lately and it’s been uncomfortable. I’ve had to think about if I have been non-verbally encouraging my kids to date people of color. And if so, is there some hidden racist reason for this?

http://www.antiracistparent.com/2008/04/04/dating-the-next-generation/#comments

As I’ve spoken to in previous posts, as a person of color who grew up in virtually all white surroundings, there were many times I identified myself as white. Not literally of course, but in every other possible way.

Were there times in my past where I wished that I was white? Absolutely. Were there times in my past where I thought of myself as practically white given the context of my upbringing and lack of exposure to people of color, including other Asians? You bet... But did I ever truly believe, honestly think and proudly proclaim that I was a white person? Never once.

I know there are other transracial adoptees who are immensely proud of the fact that they consider themselves white. They embrace being white like their parents and siblings and don’t distinguish themselves as being anything but “one of them” in every way. It’s certainly not my place to stand in judgment of anyone who may adhere to those beliefs; each of us is entitled to claiming our own truths.

I once heard a fellow KAD speak about her reaction to seeing another Asian person when she was younger. Like me, she had grown up in an extremely homogeneous setting and was often the only person of color in every circle that she and her family traveled. Her reaction to seeing another Asian was jarring, uncomfortable and hit a little too close to home. As a person who saw herself as white like her family, seeing another Asian was a glaring reminder that if she happened to view this fellow Asian as an outsider, as an “other” and as one who was different in every possible way, it was all too likely that she herself was being seen in the exact same way by others...

I truly believe that the signficance for the physical affirmation of oneself to be reflected in the media and to be present as meaningful, personal role models as well existing in authentic, supportive relationships, cannot be overstated in helping promote a positive self-identity.

http://www.antiracistparent.com/2008/03/03/aint-no-shame-in-saying-that-im-asian/#more-360

Comment to the essay.

Even though I did not grow up in an all white environment, I understand where you are coming from and where you are getting at. I grew up in Hong Kong but immigranted to the U.S. at the age of 9. It is true that my town and my school is over 50% Asian, there were still many times I wished I was white.

I wished I was white when kids on the school bus would tease me for being a ” ‘chink’ with big glasses who doesn’t know English”; I wish I was white when people on the train would purposely, right in front of my face, imitate and laugh at my language (or whatever the language they were attempting to make fun of) I realized, however, there is nothing shameful or embarrasing to be an Asian when we are all just humans living in this world. Rather, I should be proud of my culture, of my family, and of myself.

My mother had once asked if I was ashamed of her (and my dad), of our Asian roots in U.S., of their jobs, and of their lack of knowledge in English. I cried when she said that.

[tommyhtown]

It's times like this I know I don't get the Asian American male psyche, as much as I shoot the shit with you. You all got some serious baggage with regard to females. Fuck, we/they are guilty unless sucking your cock. Probably fair to say that the majority of any acceptance I get from any of you is because my spouse is an Asian male. Otherwise I'd probably be told to fuck off around here more often than I already am.

Remind of this joke I heard way back when.

Q: What is the difference between a slut and a bitch?

A: A slut will fuck anyone, but a bitch will fuck anyone BUT you.

But really, is this really the Asian American male thing? I had seen bubbas got quite riled up about minority taking one of their own. Or am I way off base about the particular AM psyche you are talking about?

[j&j2]

When it was his turn to check out, he happened to look behind me and we exchanged glances in the way you acknowledge someone when they happen to be looking right at you. He then looked at the person manning the cash register, a young Asian woman who appeared to be in her early twenties. He got a slight smirk on his face, then looked at me again and then again at her. “Hmmmmmm” he murmured in a suggestive overtone (the best way I can describe it is to think of Joey Tribiani from Friends and his infamous “Hey, how youuuuuu doin’?) that left NO doubt in my mind that he was somehow aroused that two Asian women were practically on either side of him.

As an Asian woman in this country, I know I have sufficiently startled, confused and disappointed many people throughout my lifetime because I have proved to be the wrong kind of Asian.

As a parent, I harbor no illusions that our almost 6 year-old daughter and 3 year-old son will most likely be subjected to the same set of standards that many hold about what it means to be the right kind of Asian. As for the argument that they’re the lucky ones because at least the Asian stereotypes are amongst the more “favorable” ones, I must respectfully disagree. My children will still (and already have) get put into the box by many who cry foul the moment my children’s behavior pushes the limits of what they believe the acceptable Asian parameters to be.

The truth of the matter is, any person of color in this country has an infinitely harder time - if not an impossible one - of being seen “as is” - beyond the restricting stereotypes, beyond the often assigned and unfair labels, beyond the limited images that the media has constructed and beyond the powerful internalized messages that each one of us possesses.

http://www.antiracistparent.com/2008/02/20/the-wrong-kind-of-asian/#more-358


But it’s poignant watching our son grow into himself, too, for the cocoon of family and home can no longer protect him from the reality of life in a race-conscious country. The fact is that he will surely (perhaps has already, even at his young age,) face dislike or discrimination simply because of his race. Knowing this makes it that much harder to let him go, for no parent wants to send their children into a world that may hurt them for no other reason then the color of their skin, the shape of their eyes, or the texture of their hair.

But let go we must. While our son was still in high school and I was preparing myself for his departure, I envisioned “letting go” as the process of helping him learn to make his own decisions. But letting go of my Korean American son also means accepting that he’s entering a world that my husband and I can’t enter with him.

http://www.antiracistparent.com/2008/01/16/taking-control/

It makes me quite sick to know that I heard these very words from my ex-next-door neighbor’s daughter, directed at mine, when they first moved to our neighborhood. She and a friend were playing in their back yard, when I noticed them throwing little pieces of paper over their fence into our yard. After throwing a note, they’d run away so we couldn’t see them, and laugh. My daughter picked one of them up and read it. It said, “Go home. We don’t want you here.”

My daughter was clearly hurt.

http://www.antiracistparent.com/2007/11/14/leave/

When I was in 8th grade, I was at a friend’s birthday party. One girl named Julie was talking about a group of Chinese boys and ended her rant with “Freakin’ chinks - what do they know?” A few people immediately looked at me, trying to gauge my reaction. Julie stammered a bit and finally said, “Ohmygosh, Paula. I didn’t mean you, I mean you’re not even Chinese are you? I hope you’re not upset. I was totally NOT talking about you.”

During college, I had several friends and acquaintances tell me, “My parents would absolutely kill me if I ever brought home a guy (or girl) that wasn’t white.” They’d quickly follow it up with a psuedo apology/explanation like, “But I’m not talking about people like you. You’re practically white anyway. It’s not like you have an accent or anything or have Chinese parents who don’t know how to speak English.” (Never mind that I’m not even Chinese.)

As a child, I was an Asian girl who existed in a sea of white. My search for identity was baffling to say the least. There were an ample number of mirrors in our home. Both of my parents are trigger happy with a camera and I’ve seen plenty of pictures of myself. If there is one thing I know to be true about who I am, it is that I am undeniably, certifiably Asian. Yet for years, I was treated by many who had been around me for a significant enough time as “just another white girl” - - so much so that there were times when even I was caught off guard by the “Hey, chink! Why don’t you open your eyes, already!” comments. Who were they talking to, anyway? There was such a disconnect to how I felt inside and to what image was boldly and unabashedly reflected back to me whenever I’d look at myself.

When I was younger, I used to take it as a great compliment whenever anyone would tell me, “I don’t really think of you as Asian. To me, you’re practically white”. Back then, it told me I must have been doing a really good job of fitting into the mold that everyone else naturally and effortlessly matched into. But now when someone says they see me as “just as good as white” because of the way I act or speak or write, it more often than not tells me about their own insecurities and their irrational desire to want and need me to fit into that mold for their own comfort.


http://www.antiracistparent.com/2007/10/10/a-slur-by-any-other-name/#more-301


Virtually all of my childhood and adolescence was spent trying to reconcile the tension of feeling like I was a white person trapped inside a Korean girl’s body. Friends, family members and acquaintances alike told me time and time again: “I don’t think of you as Korean (or Asian). I only see Paula. Race really doesn’t matter.” After years of internalizing that repetitive message, I tried in earnest to make myself and others believe that I was just as white (read: just as good) as my peers...

Growing up, I did not have the language to describe what I now can aptly identify as white privilege, but even from a very early age, I was acutely aware that my brothers (both of whom are my parents’ biological children) and my parents were afforded certain advantages and preferential treatment by others that simply were not extended to me. Sadly, I eventually found myself becoming accustomed to the fact that many people’s reactions towards me would undergo a radical transformation as soon as they found out I was the daughter of white parents. Miraculously, once in the presence of my white mother or white father, I somehow became immediately visible and worthy of other’s attention.

http://www.antiracistparent.com/2007/08/10/columnist-intro-paula/#comments

[Sunflare]

But really, is this really the Asian American male thing? I had seen bubbas got quite riled up about minority taking one of their own.

True. With Afro-American men and women, it's the Afro-American woman that is hypermasculinized and stereotyped as domineering, unattractive, etc. while the Afro-American man is hypersexualized men who all got 20 inch blackzillas.

On top of that, there is a dating disparity within the Afro-American population where more BMs date white and that pisses of alot of angry black women. You should see the threads posted in the message boards and blogs where IR issues concerning the black community was digressed into the most heated arguements about IR I have ever seen in my life.

It's like twice as bad than the AF bashing that happens on the APA message boards. ( OK, maybe not. there's MM.com ) Anyway, in this case it's the angry black women who bitch and moan about IR shit.

One time a moderator on a blasian forum, that I will not mention the name of, flamed me bad because I simply said in a post that I prefer dating Asian women and why. ( When I'm Asian and I told the bitch that I'm Asian. Obviously she's freaking illiterate. )

She goes off, telling me I have AIDS and that I was going to be destroyed by God and all kinds of stupid shit.

Oh, and the fact that I'm 'insecure' ( typical response ) and that I, like all black men ( presuming I'm black when I told the bitch that I'm fucking Asian I think ten times by then ) and that 'we' all go after the Asian women because of hypersexulized stereotypes concerning AFs.

WTF ?

[J Honcanese]

Honestly guys, who cares if AFs outmarry into other races? There's more than enough of us around (at least 1/3 of the world population) to "carry on the genes" if that's what we're after.

There's a fair chance that I'll date both AFs and non-AFs so I'm not going to be hypocritical about AFs in IR relationships. It's all about personal choice. To be fair, I did spend most of my life growing up in Asia so I was never in an environment of white exclusion, though it was heavily influenced by mainstream American culture.

It's interesting though. When I'm in Asia I'm made conscious of how "un-Asian" I am (apparently I give off the vibe that I don't speak or read Chinese even though I can), whereas in the West it's virtually the opposite. It's less pronounced here in England because I fit in pretty well, but I do get the odd occasion where I get treated differently because of my race and ethnicity.

It doesn't bother me though - if people are ignorant, racist and prejudiced then that's their problem. I'm not going to go out of my way to fix it or prove them wrong.

[cloudzero]

^oh yea thats new. also, its like the 5th time you've mentioned how unasian you are

[Sunflare]

if people are ignorant, racist and prejudiced then that's their problem. I'm not going to go out of my way to fix it or prove them wrong.

That's exactly my point. That's why my attitude is working to improve my own life, and myself as a person so I can be more attactive to the women I am interested in, and ultimately have the lifestyle I always wanted.

I don't have the time nor the resources to go all out as an APA activist trying to change things. Just working towards my own academic, secular and personal life is a task enough in itself as it is.

[Banana]

J&J, you need to stop with those types of posts. While informative, posting a block of text just causes my eyes to glaze over and your argument is lost.

J Hon, your point is irrelevant to what I'm saying. My point is the insecurity is caused by social events that are beyond our control. To make matters worse, Asian women are actually contributing to it. In this country, Asian men are emasculated to the point where it's unrelenting. To make it worse, Asian women are dating out at incredible numbers which serves to:

1.) cause Asian men to be even more insecure about their sexuality (something that is already taking a daily beating in American culture)

2.) confirms to non-Asian men and women that Asian men are inferior. After all, if they're so great, why are Asian men not a priority for Asian women, right?

3.) There are so many incidents of Asian women insulting Asian men. Now, do you honestly think that white men interview and coach Asian women to say these things? I highly doubt it. It's merely a decent representation of the demographic.

No matter how one wants to deny it, you can't argue with the fuckin' logic. I brought up the insecurity among women and weight issues because they're constantly bombarded by the ideal standards of beauty in media. Media states what's beautiful and men constantly reinforce that. Therefore, women feel insecure if they don't fit that mold. Do you outright dismiss that concern as frivolous? If not, why? It's the same thing.

Lastly, comparing Asians in Asia to overseas Asians be it in American, Canada, or Europe isn't the same.

Now, given my personal sordid history on the subject, I have the right to be a little mentally fucked up. It's what I'm constantly seeing that's reinforcing my current attitude. If I was bitten once by a dog, I'd be wary of them. However, if I was being bitten on a daily basis, it keeps my wariness of them going. Eventually, the wariness morphs into much more negative.

Hey, feel free if you want to dismiss this as the ramblings of someone who's insecure. Incoming oxymoron but I'm confident enough to admit that I'm insecure purely on this subject. Otherwise, I'm very confident in everything I do but I'm sick and tired of this passive aggressive idiocy from Asian men because they want to be careful not to upset Asian women and risk being called insecure.

Oh, if you decide to go there, I have no issues at all with non-Asian women.

[Sunflare]

My point is the insecurity is caused by social events that are beyond our control.

That's definitely a fundamental fact concerning any situation involving a person going through any sort of difficulties in life. People have all kinds of insecurities because of things that are beyond their control, and rightfully so.

Kids in the ghettos coming out of broken homes unprepared emotionally socially and psychologically for adult life, single mothers forced to work two jobs to support their children, persons who end up homeless on the street . . .

Would'nt we say these people in these types of deplorable scenerios due to circumstances beyond their control, would'nt they be a bit insecure about their situation and fighting negative feelings of hopelessness about their futures ?

Even the strongest of people who fought and came out of these circumstances will admit that they were insecure at times.

We're only human.

I'm confident enough to admit that I'm insecure purely on this subject. Otherwise, I'm very confident in everything I do but I'm sick and tired of this passive aggressive idiocy from Asian men because they want to be careful not to upset Asian women and risk being called insecure.

In my opinion, with Asian ladies, they way to go about it is not to be a dick about it but not to be a total spineless pushover either on issues like this, or any issue at all for that matter where the two persons may have conflicting opinions.

This definitely applies if an Asian man is happening to be dating an Asian woman I would think.

I think if the prominent AMs and AFs in American society, who speak for us on these issues, can come to a mutual understanding on their perspectives on this, then that would be a major win for us all.

[AngryABCGirl]

Didn't come online for like a day and half because my new house didn't have internet. Wow.

Do we gotta instigate the temporary ban on IR thread again?

[Sunflare]

Didn't come online for like a day and half because my new house didn't have internet. Wow.

Do we gotta instigate the temporary ban on IR thread again?

I did'nt find one single sentence where there exists condescending remarks made against Asian women. Nor can I find any hint of personal attacks or flaming in this thread.

Just to set the record straight.

[eos]

It's not even about condescending remarks or flaming.

Just ENOUGH already of the topic itself. jfc.

Who votes for a moratorium of the topic for....oh i dunno.....5 years? *rolls eyes*

[Sunflare]

I can see clearly how insecure men and women are on this subject.

Its obviously not just exclusively the men who are supposedly 'insecure' on this subject.

I'm sure if someone locks this thread the person will do it out of some insecure feeling of some sort while claiming to lock it because of the clutter, the repetitiveness of the subject discussed or whatever the excuse may be.

Anyway I have no qualms about closing this thread. Only because I am tired of infighting.

Everybody here male and female have their opinions on this article but can't seem to respect the viewpoints of others that is different from his or her own..

[eos]

I'm sure if someone locks this thread the person will do it out of some insecure feeling of some sort while claiming to lock it because of the clutter, the repetitiveness of the subject discussed or whatever the excuse may be.


Mm....do you think it's wise to say something like this, in here?

[Sunflare]

Mm....do you think it's wise to say something like this, in here?

Generally speaking, with any forum, hey, sometimes even with the mods you have to be brutally honest about things and they will have to take it as constructive criticism. If they want to internalize it and take it personally, and misuse their authority as moderators or administrators to get even with the user, then that's *their* problem.

They are no less or more as a person as I am, as a mere user.

[cloudzero]

Generally speaking, with any forum, hey, sometimes even with the mods you have to be brutally honest about things and they will have to take it as constructive criticism. If they want to internalize it and take it personally, and misuse their authority as moderators or administrators to get even with the user, then that's *their* problem.

They are no less or more as a person as I am, as a mere user.

Lets talk about insecure. How Asian do you look?

[Banana]

I didn't mean for this to turn into another post about the topic but I boil over when I hear the usual shit being spewed about how "it doesn't matter and doesn't affect anyone in a bad way" or "just get some confidence and you'll be fine."

Since I'm financially well, I don't go around saying "oh, people are poor because they want to be poor."

God, shut the fuck up with that response already.

[J Honcanese]

J Hon, your point is irrelevant to what I'm saying. My point is the insecurity is caused by social events that are beyond our control. To make matters worse, Asian women are actually contributing to it. In this country, Asian men are emasculated to the point where it's unrelenting. To make it worse, Asian women are dating out at incredible numbers which serves to:

1.) cause Asian men to be even more insecure about their sexuality (something that is already taking a daily beating in American culture)

2.) confirms to non-Asian men and women that Asian men are inferior. After all, if they're so great, why are Asian men not a priority for Asian women, right?

3.) There are so many incidents of Asian women insulting Asian men. Now, do you honestly think that white men interview and coach Asian women to say these things? I highly doubt it. It's merely a decent representation of the demographic.

No matter how one wants to deny it, you can't argue with the fuckin' logic. I brought up the insecurity among women and weight issues because they're constantly bombarded by the ideal standards of beauty in media. Media states what's beautiful and men constantly reinforce that. Therefore, women feel insecure if they don't fit that mold. Do you outright dismiss that concern as frivolous? If not, why? It's the same thing.

Lastly, comparing Asians in Asia to overseas Asians be it in American, Canada, or Europe isn't the same.

Now, given my personal sordid history on the subject, I have the right to be a little mentally fucked up. It's what I'm constantly seeing that's reinforcing my current attitude. If I was bitten once by a dog, I'd be wary of them. However, if I was being bitten on a daily basis, it keeps my wariness of them going. Eventually, the wariness morphs into much more negative.

Hey, feel free if you want to dismiss this as the ramblings of someone who's insecure. Incoming oxymoron but I'm confident enough to admit that I'm insecure purely on this subject. Otherwise, I'm very confident in everything I do but I'm sick and tired of this passive aggressive idiocy from Asian men because they want to be careful not to upset Asian women and risk being called insecure.

Oh, if you decide to go there, I have no issues at all with non-Asian women.Alright, thanks for filling me in. My previous post was primarily a frustrated response to the topic of IR. I can't say I fully understand what it means to be an Asian-American so I apologise if I come across as being dismissive about hot-button issues like this.

also, its like the 5th time you've mentioned how unasian you areWell picture this, you're in your formative years and everyone around you - strangers, friends, family, even your own parents, constantly tell you this, over and over again. First thing that you get when people meet you for the very first time: "You're not very Chinese." or alternatively, "Are you sure you're Chinese?" People look down on you because you're "whitewashed" and you've lost the culture.

I spent a good deal of my life trying and failing to be as Asian as everyone else, so I naturally have a complex associated with this.

[nameless]

Now, given my personal sordid history on the subject, I have the right to be a little mentally fucked up. It's what I'm constantly seeing that's reinforcing my current attitude. If I was bitten once by a dog, I'd be wary of them. However, if I was being bitten on a daily basis, it keeps my wariness of them going. Eventually, the wariness morphs into much more negative.

What exactly are you constantly seeing? Are you surrounded by IR and dirty looks from AF everyday or something?

Didn't come online for like a day and half because my new house didn't have internet. Wow.

Do we gotta instigate the temporary ban on IR thread again?

Or temp ban j&j2.

j/k dude :biggrin:

[j&j2]

An Asian man who is confident in himself would not be overly concerned and heated over issues like this in the first place. Instead such a man would be smart about the underlying situation here and actually do something about his own dating life to even the odds.

Sunflare - if I recollect correctly, didn't you say that you had "issues" w/ your "identity" while you were growing up?

The whole identity thing is the focus - where too many Asian-Am kids grow up not wanting to be identified or having anything to do w/ being "Asian".

I don't know about you, but that is a pretty important core issue (which underlines many of the issues affecting Asian-Ams).


Honestly guys, who cares if AFs outmarry into other races? There's more than enough of us around (at least 1/3 of the world population) to "carry on the genes" if that's what we're after.

Honestly, does this thread in any way care about whom an AF (or AM) dates on an individual level?

There's a fair chance that I'll date both AFs and non-AFs so I'm not going to be hypocritical about AFs in IR relationships.

No one seems to be hypocritical about IR here (why do these same arguments always come up?).

Otoh, if you only dated WFs b/c you have low self-esteem/lack of identity (where dating WFs was a sign of being accepted by society or something to flout) or b/c you regard AFs as being "inferior" - I'm sure many here would take issue (not w/ you personally, necessarily, but w/ the overall social construct).

It's all about personal choice.

Again - that is a falsity.

If that were the case (being a personal choice), we'd see many more Asian-Ams dating/marrying blacks or non-white Hispanics, but we don't.

Many of our "choices" are set by our environment.

It's very much the same reason why young black kids think that lighter-skinned dolls are "good" and darker-skinned dolls are "bad".


It doesn't bother me though - if people are ignorant, racist and prejudiced then that's their problem. I'm not going to go out of my way to fix it or prove them wrong.

Fine - don't care.

But if you have kids, I just hope they don't consider their Asian heritage (or you) to be embarrassing.

----------------

Look - the last thing I wanted was for this thread to degenerate into another IR discussion.

Most of the essays I linked have NOTHING to do w/ IR, but w/ identity/self-esteem issues.

But if we must bring IR into the discussion.

1. IR relationships, in and of themselves, are not bad.

2. An AF in an IR relationship doesn't mean she hates or rejects Asian guys (well, at least all of them). (Personally, I'd like to think that the majority don't think like that.)

3. However, there are IR relationships - for BOTH AFs and AMs where they reject Asians outright and basically see "white as (being) right" - where it has become a recognizable social phenomena.

3.1 While there are more AFs w/ such viewpoints (due to the fact that the imagery of AFs tend to be more positive - at least on a physical/sexual desirability level), disturbingly, there is a growing no. of AMs who buy into the same spiel.

3.2 I don't know if that's just the natural progression of being exposed to the same environmental forces (where the blue-eyed, buxom blonde is seen as the feminine ideal) or whether it is a reaction to what they see as rejection from AFs - but it probably has something to do w/ both (among other things).

Once again, IR is just one of the many symptoms arising out of the underlying problem - which has to do w/ self-esteem and identity.

Heck, if Asian-Am kids grew up nothing having issues w/ their self-esteem and identity (well, those which have to do w/ being Asian) - I wouldn't care if every single Asian-Am kid ended up marrying "out".

[buttermilkwise]

That's exactly my point. That's why my attitude is working to improve my own life, and myself as a person so I can be more attactive to the women I am interested in, and ultimately have the lifestyle I always wanted.

I don't have the time nor the resources to go all out as an APA activist trying to change things. Just working towards my own academic, secular and personal life is a task enough in itself as it is.

Well there is always porn and prostitution if that doesn`t work out.

I`m working overseas in Japan , what I notice is that Japanese men (not all but in general) are inept retards when it comes to women. You walk into a normal video store and about 60% of all the dvds is nothing but porn, it is so bad that when you actually do walk into a Ero shop in Akihabara the whole fucking place is filled with all any concievable imaginable weird shit, like scat, rope binding, S&M, she~males, beastiality.

On the brightside there are quite a few AM/WF couples, and I think I saw a black woman with a blasian baby. While there is white worshipping I can say for certain Japanese women dig asian guys but the majority are usually the ones that don`t speak a word of english. That reminds me recently I met a pretty japanese highschool girl who I know has the hots for me, while I am still in my twenties it is too unfortunate because in my situation I can`t do anything much other than be nice and friendly 16 year old girls are too young.

[AngryABCGirl]

http://walkingthefenceline.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/internet_argument.png

[BillBlythe]

Well there is always porn and prostitution if that doesn`t work out.

I`m working overseas in Japan , what I notice is that Japanese men (not all but in general) are inept retards when it comes to women. You walk into a normal video store and about 60% of all the dvds is nothing but porn, it is so bad that when you actually do walk into a Ero shop in Akihabara the whole fucking place is filled with all any concievable imaginable weird shit, like scat, rope binding, S&M, she~males, beastiality.

On the brightside there are quite a few AM/WF couples, and I think I saw a black woman with a blasian baby. While there is white worshipping I can say for certain Japanese women dig asian guys but the majority are usually the ones that don`t speak a word of english. That reminds me recently I met a pretty japanese highschool girl who I know has the hots for me, while I am still in my twenties it is too unfortunate because in my situation I can`t do anything much other than be nice and friendly 16 year old girls are too young.

http://www.tmz.com/2008/10/09/austin-powers-star-charged-in-gang-rape/

hah. what a coincidence that i came across this news 10 minutes after reading this post. anyone who doesn't know who joe son is he use to be a UFC fighter way way before anyone knew what Mixed Martial Arts was. His claim to fame was getting his balls smashed repeatedly by another fighter before they changed the rules.

[Banana]

What exactly are you constantly seeing? Are you surrounded by IR and dirty looks from AF everyday or something?

I'm in New York City and I see it only a near daily basis. I was actually shocked to see an Asian American couple a few days ago because AF/WM greatly outnumber Asian men with Asian women.

[tommyhtown]

I'm in New York City and I see it only a near daily basis. I was actually shocked to see an Asian American couple a few days ago because AF/WM greatly outnumber Asian men with Asian women.

I just came back from NYC. I spent most of my time in Manhattan. I had to say I see more a lot of AF/WM couples more than I see in Houston.

[Sunflare]

I just came back from NYC.

Up to no good in the Big Apple , huh ?

[popculturepooka]

On the brightside there are quite a few AM/WF couples, and I think I saw a black woman with a blasian baby. While there is white worshipping I can say for certain Japanese women dig asian guys but the majority are usually the ones that don`t speak a word of english. That reminds me recently I met a pretty japanese highschool girl who I know has the hots for me, while I am still in my twenties it is too unfortunate because in my situation I can`t do anything much other than be nice and friendly 16 year old girls are too young.

Bruh, you're in Japan, they don't care about simple and needlessley complicated things such as "age of consent".

I have many stories.

[nameless]

I'm in New York City and I see it only a near daily basis. I was actually shocked to see an Asian American couple a few days ago because AF/WM greatly outnumber Asian men with Asian women.

Serious? Dang, no wonder you and Sunflare are messed up. j/k :wink: But seriously, I know how it can be - it seemed like I saw that shit everywhere in college (after I had taken the AsAm classes "coincidentally"), and it messes with you.

But then I moved back home and now I rarely see it. Given I live in a pretty diverse area, but it's no ethnic enclave. Seeing all the average looking Asian guys with cute girls, I've just come to the conclusion that it's an issue in white ass areas. I guess all I can say is don't buy into the 'epidemic scare' because it is very avoidable. I dunno, is there any self-esteem boost knowing that it's only a localized problem? Or at least knowing that a relationship is possible with a cross country flight.

Bruh, you're in Japan, they don't care about simple and needlessley complicated things such as "age of consent".

I have many stories.

thread derail pls thx

[cloudzero]

I'm in New York City and I see it only a near daily basis. I was actually shocked to see an Asian American couple a few days ago because AF/WM greatly outnumber Asian men with Asian women.

oh yea, i needed to know that. i was hoping i would stay sane until the 2010 census. don't ruin my last two years.

[Banana]

I never saw the value in lying to someone unless I wanted to screw them over.

This is why I second guess any Asian person who tells me otherwise. I mean, what I'm seeing directly conflicts with what they've been saying so I have no real reason to believe what they're saying.

[pikachupacabra]

Call it crazy, but I was at the SF zoo a few weeks ago and it was like overflowing with AM/WF couples and all their kids. Like, counted at least 11. I was actually wondering if they outnumbered AF/AM couples even. Didn't see many AF/WM...I usually don't really pay much attention (why bother when there are cute monkeys and giraffes around) but after seeing a few of them I guess my mind thought "hey that's something weird" and I actively started paying attention.

Weird I guess.

[AngryABCGirl]

I noticed that about San Francisco too. Perhaps that's why the men here are happy and not bitter.

[cloudzero]

again with the white chicks, GEESH!

[Sunflare]

As far as the disparity issue with NY is concerned, Tommyhtown and Banana's observations is correct --- there are alot of WM/AF couples out here, and I see it practically on a daily basis myself.

On the flip side, I don't really see an Asian man in an IR either. And for that matter, *any man of color* in an IR.

It's not just the Asian women in NY to be honest. It seems there are alot of Indian, black and Hispanic women dating or married to white men here too.

That's how crazy the dating scene is here in NY as compared to San Francisco and other parts of California where you see more Asian men and ladies in IRs dating other men and women of color.

( Notice that I am putting the emphasis on AMs and AFs dating other men and women of color. Which is an unfortunate rarity on the east coast. )

[Banana]

Let's not confuse bitterness with resentment.

[Sunflare]

To add to Banana's comment -- Or awareness. Big difference.

[cloudzero]

we're all aware damnit. its mofos on threads like this that remind me of how happy i was the 20 minutes when my mind was on something else.

[Adaon]

Call it crazy, but I was at the SF zoo a few weeks ago and it was like overflowing with AM/WF couples and all their kids. Like, counted at least 11. I was actually wondering if they outnumbered AF/AM couples even. Didn't see many AF/WM...I usually don't really pay much attention (why bother when there are cute monkeys and giraffes around) but after seeing a few of them I guess my mind thought "hey that's something weird" and I actively started paying attention.

Weird I guess.

Just as an observation, but I see more of a mix in Berkeley. =) As in AM/WF & AF/WM.

As you get further inland, towards Concord/Walnut Creek, the numbers of AM/WF drops a lil, but still, this is just my observations from hanging out from folk in the East Bay.

And most of the WM/AF folks I know don't so much hang out at the Zoo (too family orientated) so much as hanging down at the De Young, or Union Street, Embarcadero, and more yuppish areas. Personally, I've only met one AF/WM couple local to the Bay Area that had kids, and that's because I am friends with their kids. =) Every other one has had no interest in kids, as far as I've met.

[Sunflare]

we're all aware damnit. its mofos on threads like this

There are also people on threads like this who talk with straight up arrogance and/or ignorance to the topic discussed and refuse to see the big picture.

That's what I don't like about discussions like this.

Me I'm trying to learn from what everybody is saying here without becoming embittered, opinionated or emotional in the process.

I'm sure that's what everyone is trying to do here too including yourself.

On a lighter note from what I seen from past discussions and this one, california sounds like a real great place to live. . .

[cloudzero]

So what progress have we made from this thread?
What are we gaining from constantly shoving my face into this "big picture" of yours?
This better be good.

[Banana]

My gripe in this thread had two points: Don't say people aren't affected and stop using the "bootstrap" rebuttal. People aren't born broken, society made them that way.

[Sunflare]

@ cloudzero:

Racism, sexism and interracial dating are all connected together like links on a chain as a consequence of problems associated with society and is causing many problems for the personal lives of many asian american men and women.

A big problem that has no immediate solutions in sight for many who are troubled by the difficulties associated with ir issues.

This is nothing new. The same thing was and is still happening in the afro american communities as well long before apa's became a prominent minority in the united states.

I can only speak for myself.... I just wish it was all fair game for anyone who wishes to date someone according to their own particular sexual preferences in the opposite sex, and that can include the particular ethnicity of that person.

A freedom of choice that at this time only white males and females have.

I desire for all to have that same freedom of choice in realizing their desires in finding that signifigant other.

However that flexibility in dating is not exactly as obtainable for many who feel despondant because of the current situation with ir.

Its not impossible to find that love of your wildest dreams as a non white person. I refuse to believe it.

[cloudzero]

what was my question?

[Sunflare]

That question concerning what we gained from discussions from this as you were implying...

That's something you should ask about *yourself*

[cloudzero]

That's something you should ask about *yourself*

^ who else thinks this is bs?

and no my question is why am i getting slapped in the face with this topic, just because YOU want to vent

[Sunflare]

^ who else thinks this is bs?

and no my question is why am i getting slapped in the face with this topic, just because YOU want to vent

Who said I'm trying to slap you in your face over my views over this ? I'm not looking to debate or vent. I'm just expressing my personal viewpoints on this indiscriminantly.

You're taking this way too emotionally. I have no idea what your dating life is like but all I can say is that with a positive outlook on this you will definitely be much happier then you sound now with you're rant you're hurling at me.

Grow some balls man.

[popculturepooka]

thread derail pls thx

Might as well, considering this thread is quickly turning into a flamewar.

Me and my friends went to a club where we were picking up girls (all around our age) and later we came out with a huge group and there was a guy sitting on a bench outside of the club. He was drunk.

Him: Oh...you guys are lucky!
Me: ...what are you talking about?
Him: Oh, 18-year old girls are the best! That's a perfect age. You should go and find them.
Friend: Wtf, man, how old are you?
Him: I'm 40 and married. But that is my dream. To have my wife, and a 18 year old mistress.
Me to Friend: WTF?! This guy would be in jail quicker than he could say, "Hey little girl, I have 100 bucks, wanna take a ri-" back in America.
Friend: Isn't that a little young?
Friend to me: Hasn't he heard of the half your age plus seven rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-Your-Age-Plus-Seven_Rule)?
Him: No, not at all! 18 is ideal! But 17 is good. 16 is still good too. 14 is actually very nice.....(see:enjo kosai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enjo_kosai))
Me, Friend: Hooooooly Sheeeeiiitttt!!!
Friend: Wow....we need to leave. Like right now. We are probably going to catch pedophillic tendencies hanging around with this dude.
Him: Next time you guys go out, can I come too?
Me, Friend: ................................
Him: (pointing at me) I think he is very good at attracting 17 year old girls. If I go with you guys, maybe I can have your leftovers?
Me, Friend: ................................
*walks off hurriedly*

[Chooky]

"……..I learned from an early age that my acceptance depended on my ability to act as white as possible. I denied my race and ethnicity whenever I could………….Then, a little over a year ago, I was introduced to the anti-racism movement, and my world changed completely....."

The fact that so many Asian-Americans of both genders tell a similar story of not knowing who they are as adolescents and young adults but who then suddenly “find” themselves when they go through college or later, suggests that empowerment activism may be failing to reach out to those who may be in most need of it at the time when they most need it.

There’s often an attitude of derision and superiority (I’m guilty of this too) toward people who appear to “sell-out” their heritage in their youth, but is it fair for our community to relegate the importance and relevance of the issues faced by Asian-American kids and then turn around and deride them for “not getting it” as adults?

I think that being Asian in an American school amongst predominantly non-Asian peers might be, for many, an extremely difficult experience at the best of times. I often wonder if Asian kids bear the brunt of anti-Asian racism, with racial baiting and harassment being dismissed by authorities (and even perhaps by Asians themselves) as instances of “kids just being kids” and racial attacks being labeled as “boys just being boys”.

It’s possible that these are accurate assessments of the situation but the racism experienced by Asian children in schools is under-reported, overlooked or ignored within the Asian community and the mainstream alike. In other words we don’t have anywhere near a complete picture of the level of racism that is experienced on a daily basis by Asian kids throughout the U.S.

So, it might be more accurate to say that the existence of such “white-washed sell-outs” may reflect in some ways more of a blind spot in Asian empowerment efforts than a deficiency in those who take the only choices seemingly on offer to get through the difficulties of adolescence.