Rift between black and white feminists

[Zdrav]

http://www.newsweek.com/id/138514

The relationship between black and white women was never that strong to begin with. Sure, we've had a few good moments here and there, and we have meaningful relationships with individual black or white girlfriends, but there has always been a stubborn divide. That divide is now a chasm of resentment.

For most black women, overcoming racial oppression has always been a more important goal than fighting battles strictly along gender lines. It is a feeling that resonates deeply and is based on this country's long history of racial oppression. It's also something white feminists may never understand. Black women's support for Obama is not just about race, just as it's not solely about gender with Clinton supporters. The problem is that, as both camps have appealed to their most loyal supporters, the divide has broken down along racial lines: all too many progressive white women now say they will have a hard time voting for a black man in November.

I know this doesn't have much to do with Asian-American issues specifically, but I think it's a great instance of the disillusionment of the societal assumption that the educated white middle-class is somehow so transcendent that they can speak for all races, sexes, and creeds. It's the false idea that being white, especially a liberal white, does not come with its own "ethnic" baggage and identity, and thus implying that liberal whites have a neutral and unbiased perspective.

I think as America moves more and more towards being a minority-majority nation, liberal whites are going to become aware of the fact that they too have ethnic identities and that they are not the neutral arbiters that they sometimes view themselves in wishful and self-serving fashion. Hillary Clinton is not the woman candidate; she's the white woman candidate, just like how Barack Obama is the black man candidate, or how Bill Richardson would be the Latino man candidate.

I also think that ethnicity and feminism are so difficult because it tries to harness two of the worst prejudices in human history: racism and sexism. By trying to do too much, ethnic feminism has a tendency to devolve into Amy Tanism or Maxine Hong Kingstonism where feminism and racism cannot peacefully co-exist, and one must be promoted at the expense of the other (i.e. the promotion of Asian women's independence by buying into racist stereotypes of Asian men). But if we all realize that ideologies espoused by whites have an ethnic bent to them, just as ideologies such as Black Liberation theology or Dependency theory do, then we can all become better thinkers.

[BillBlythe]

irrelevant to discussion

[Sunflare]

reply to irrelevant question

[AngryABCGirl]

I for one, really hate uppity libby white feminists, the ones I've encounter anyway have a know-it-all view of the world, one that's solely through white lens. They think they're so goddamn progressive because they're feminists, but can't entertain the idea that maybe being a Black woman, a Latina woman, or an Asian woman, is a totally different ballgame.

Let's also keep irrelevant posts out of this thread please, they will be deleted. You have been warned.

[Paradox]

I for one, really hate uppity libby white feminists, the ones I've encounter anyway have a know-it-all view of the world, one that's solely through white lens. They think they're so goddamn progressive because they're feminists, but can't entertain the idea that maybe being a Black woman, a Latina woman, or an Asian woman, is a totally different ballgame.

Let's also keep irrelevant posts out of this thread please, they will be deleted. You have been warned.

You could say the same thing about middle class white liberals in general. It's pretty annoying because you can tell most of them have no idea what they are talking about they are just parroting whatever it is that was discussed in their college sociology classes. Most of them just come off as patronizing or even worse a little racist themselves with their views. Case in point..the whole Tibet debacle.

[AngryABCGirl]

You could say the same thing about middle class white liberals in general. It's pretty annoying because you can tell most of them have no idea what they are talking about they are just parroting whatever it is that was discussed in their college sociology classes. Most of them just come off as patronizing or even worse a little racist themselves with their views. Case in point..the whole Tibet debacle.

I think in particular about white women, is that because they're women therefore they are "enlightened about oppression" and therefore "get" the struggles of other "oppressed peoples" and should do things like help Free Tibet while they're doing equally progressive things like shaving their heads and what not. I understand people are challenging gender norms, but that doesn't give them free reign or have the know of everything going on with everyone else. Most of what White feminists do follows very white and western normative strategies, no room for alternative visions here.

[Paradox]

I think in particular about white women, is that because they're women therefore they are "enlightened about oppression" and therefore "get" the struggles of other "oppressed peoples" and should do things like help Free Tibet while they're doing equally progressive things like shaving their heads and what not. I understand people are challenging gender norms, but that doesn't give them free reign or have the know of everything going on with everyone else. Most of what White feminists do follows very white and western normative strategies, no room for alternative visions here.
It's a very arrogant belief system that really leaves no room for alternate discourse. I find modern day feminism (as it is preached by supposedly "liberal" white women) to be similar in its extremism to the usual white male led conservatism. It's all based on a white dominated social hierarchy one just happens to preach (white) women empowerment over white male empowerment. Different sides of the same coin and all that.

[kimpossible]

I came across a lot of this in my undergrad courses. It's probably still there today. Anyhow, I noticed an archetype that emerged: the white female who rightly should speak her mind and be part of the conversation on race & gender in society but because a lot of the larger venues are dominated by white males or females, they've learned how they are oppressed within a system but not how they contribute to the system themselves.

It never fails, any time they play the woman card as an oppression card and would get called on it by a non-white man or woman, they immediately go for the nebulous "there's some Native American in my family tree [seven generations back and I can't really prove it or so I don't know it's not true]". Living in the West, sure, there's a distinct possibility that you're like 3% indigenous if we crack open your DNA. That's probably true of many people.

But it was great because we had a lot of native teachers. One in particular used to start his class off by saying there would be playing the kinda-sorta-possibly Native American card and if he caught anyone doing it he'd put them on the spot in front of everyone and ask them what tribe, are they actual members and most importantly, what have they done over time for the people.

Since we're talking women to women racism I think it boils down to white women being very afraid of examining how they have been part of the system. But I think you could also examine similar issues based on nationality. There's a book by a native Australian professor that had a few things to say about American feminists, white and black.

As a mom I pretty much keep my nose to the grindstone because I have to spend my stress money on a moving target but I do talk to my husband about this from time to time. He encounters some of them in academia and seeks counsel on how to get around them as fast as possible.

[ism]

Great topic, and I agree with the relevant posts. The biggest problem with white feminists is the same problem with white males -- they have white privilege. The difference is the Oppression Olympics that kick into high gear and their presumption that Black women will put being a woman ahead of anything else, when it is really about the intersection of being female and Black. White feminists have to take that into account and it requires them to face their whiteness, which can be difficult. The idea that they have some sort of power over others is often the antithesis of what they've learned and cognitive dissonance does some funny stuff.

The reaction to the Seal Press/Amanda Marcotte debacle (http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/25/i-guess-its-a-jungle-in-here-too-huh/) is pretty telling. A common sentiment among Black feminist bloggers was to separate themselves from white feminists, seeing that white thought would always dominate any combined approach.

[deez nuts]

It never fails, any time they play the woman card as an oppression card and would get called on it by a non-white man or woman, they immediately go for the nebulous "there's some Native American in my family tree [seven generations back and I can't really prove it or so I don't know it's not true]". Living in the West, sure, there's a distinct possibility that you're like 3% indigenous if we crack open your DNA. That's probably true of many people.


I hear that a lot too. I usually respond: "chances are you got that little injun in you cuz your ancestors raped rather than the result of rape. Sorry, sweetheart you don't get your minority oppression card when it's gotten by force."

I don't really care about feminism or the whole minority oppression olympics as to who has it worse (I just know I want more and I'll do just about anything to get it) but I just can't resist pissing off a feminist. They usually respond with having some Native American blood after I say, "if you think it's hard being a female in America, try being a Chinese male in America."

[Paradox]

I don't really care about feminism or the whole minority oppression olympics as to who has it worse (I just know I want more and I'll do just about anything to get it) but I just can't resist pissing off a feminist. They usually respond with having some Native American blood after I say, "if you think it's hard being a female in America, try being a Chinese male in America."
Usually the people claiming to be part native american look whiter than white too. Like Mayflower anglo-saxon white. So it makes the claims all the more ludicrous. Yeah, i'm sure they may have a very obscure 3% native kicking around somewhere in the gene pool but it sure as hell isn't evident. These people don't realize that if you look "white" then you will be accepted and treated as such in America. This means you will get all the accompanying privilege and status. It doesn't matter what your distant ancestry claims are if you look and act the part.

[Zdrav]

These people don't realize that if you look "white" then you will be accepted and treated as such in America.

Good point. There's very little science in societal racism. Everything's judged on an initial superficial glance. That's why all this talk about Obama's biracialness is stupid, because if he was caught dealing crack, he'd just be black, period.

[Yeahman]

Whenever I hear someone play the "I'm 1/64th native American" card, I have to close my eyes, take a deep breath, and remind myself that I can't go around punching people in the face.

[Craig]

Whenever I hear someone play the "I'm 1/64th native American" card, I have to close my eyes, take a deep breath, and remind myself that I can't go around punching people in the face.Go for it, ... if the douchebag tries to press charges say another East Asian male must have hit them and they can't tell the difference "since we all look alike".