Should you have to speak English in America?

[Hiroshi2]

I woke up this morning (left the TV on last night) and I saw "Dora the Explorer"......................I couldn't help but notice that they were speaking Spanish, and throwing it in conversations, almost as if they were trying to slip in some spanish words in there to teach little kids who never otherwise learn a lick of spanish how to speak some espanol. Anyway.................it got me wondering...............if this is America, why do we have to learn Spanish? I know we don't have an official language, but still. All of the government documents, etc. are written in English, the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, etc. You can't pass the bar, or take an LSAT, or even get into college to tell you the truth, not knowing how to read, write and speak English. So why is everybody trying to learn Spanish? I don't want to sound racist, becasue this isn't about race or ethnicity. I'm just wondering why does everybody make it sound like I have to learn Spanish because that's how the "new society" is going to be, and 50 years from now America is gonna be run by Latinos. OK fine, but.....................this was our country first. I was born here, and everybody around me spoke English. And now everybody's trying to change that all of a sudden by telling me it's "essential" to learn Spanish. Why? It's gotten to the point now where many spanish-speaking people that immigrate here don't even bother learning the shit. They get a job, raise kids, etc. w/o ever learning a bit of english. And I know this happens in other countries too................people move to Japan for a few months or a year or whatever and never learn japanese. But still.................it doesn't seem right. What do y'all think? Is it going to be essential that I teach my kids spanish?

[Banana]

Everything changes. Nothing exists without change.

How long do you think the Romans expected their empire to last? 100 years? 1000 years? They never even considered the fact that their empire would fall apart. It has happened to every major empire and country in history; what makes anyone think the US is any different?

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Personally, I never used any of the Spanish I studied for 9 years i school to communicate with actual Latinos.

Anyway, it always seemed kinda condescending for me to speak to someone in bad Spanish right off the bat without even trying English first, precisely because we're in the US where the language of communication between ethnic group is English and not Spanish. I doubt any amount of immigration from south of the border is going to change that. And also, mostly it's not Latinos who want the rest of us to learn Spanish; it's always rich white Anglos pushing it.

Besides, plenty of SE Asian countries have proportionally more Chinese than the US has Latinos, and the Chinese there are richer. But up until now, barely anyone's learned Chinese over there.

How long do you think the Romans expected their empire to last? 100 years? 1000 years? They never even considered the fact that their empire would fall apart. It has happened to every major empire and country in history; what makes anyone think the US is any different?
Yeah, but even when the Roman empire collapsed, the languages survived --- even in Spain, which was occupied by Arabs for the better part of a millenium. Now, Arabic is gone from Spain, remaining in only some random loanwords like ojala, mesa, algodon, etc., while the language itself remains clearly derived from that of the Roman soldiers who conquered the Iberian peninsula.

[eos]

the language of the day is: mandarin

get used to it, punk asses.

[TB4000]

Dora the Explorer, huh? "Left the tv on." Don't front, man. I know you were waiting for that show to come on today.
http://img.theatermania.com/images/show/img/102928img2.jpg

Swiper, no swiping.

[Banana]

Personally, I never used any of the Spanish I studied for 9 years i school to communicate with actual Latinos.

Anyway, it always seemed kinda condescending for me to speak to someone in bad Spanish right off the bat without even trying English first, precisely because we're in the US where the language of communication between ethnic group is English and not Spanish. I doubt any amount of immigration from south of the border is going to change that. And also, mostly it's not Latinos who want the rest of us to learn Spanish; it's always rich white Anglos pushing it.

Besides, plenty of SE Asian countries have proportionally more Chinese than the US has Latinos, and the Chinese there are richer. But up until now, barely anyone's learned Chinese over there.


Yeah, but even when the Roman empire collapsed, the languages survived --- even in Spain, which was occupied by Arabs for the better part of a millenium. Now, Arabic is gone from Spain, remaining in only some random loanwords like ojala, mesa, algodon, etc., while the language itself remains clearly derived from that of the Roman soldiers who conquered the Iberian peninsula.

My point was that all empires crumble and the infusion or invasion (depending on how you look at) of another aspect of life is constantly changing. If some of the greatest empires in the world fell, what are the odds the US is going to exist forever without change? Who knows; after spanish is the primary lauguage here, it might be Greek 2 years after that.

[eos]

Dora the Explorer, huh? "Left the tv on." Don't front, man. I know you were waiting for that show to come on today.
http://img.theatermania.com/images/show/img/102928img2.jpg

Swiper, no swiping.

aww...she's so cute. :tongue:

[thaite]

this sort of stuff makes me sick. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10372148/)

[bluemonq]

if you don't want to speak english, that's fine. i just don't you should expect anyone to bend over backwards for you, nor the "right" to demand that they do as such.

[eos]

^ that's sickening.

i remember when i was in grade school, a teacher(chinese btw) yelled at these boys in my class for not speaking english. it didn't matter that they were recent immigrants and didn't know too much english. they were having a private conversation, but it turned public when the teacher screamed at them. what a bitch. :mad:

[thaite]

I woke up this morning (left the TV on last night) and I saw "Dora the Explorer"......................I couldn't help but notice that they were speaking Spanish, and throwing it in conversations, almost as if they were trying to slip in some spanish words in there to teach little kids who never otherwise learn a lick of spanish how to speak some espanol. Anyway.................it got me wondering...............if this is America, why do we have to learn Spanish? I know we don't have an official language, but still. All of the government documents, etc. are written in English, the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, etc. You can't pass the bar, or take an LSAT, or even get into college to tell you the truth, not knowing how to read, write and speak English. So why is everybody trying to learn Spanish? I don't want to sound racist, becasue this isn't about race or ethnicity. I'm just wondering why does everybody make it sound like I have to learn Spanish because that's how the "new society" is going to be, and 50 years from now America is gonna be run by Latinos. OK fine, but.....................this was our country first. I was born here, and everybody around me spoke English. And now everybody's trying to change that all of a sudden by telling me it's "essential" to learn Spanish. Why? It's gotten to the point now where many spanish-speaking people that immigrate here don't even bother learning the shit. They get a job, raise kids, etc. w/o ever learning a bit of english. And I know this happens in other countries too................people move to Japan for a few months or a year or whatever and never learn japanese. But still.................it doesn't seem right. What do y'all think? Is it going to be essential that I teach my kids spanish?


Hiroshi, there's just so many problems with that post, I don't even know how to begin to address it.

[Arex]

No one has to do anything. But I think it's awfully shortsighted to resist learning a new language just because English is presently the only language one really needs to know to get by in this country. Whether you want it to or not, the country is constantly evolving. You can either evolve with it, or you can get left behind.

For the most part, you will probably able to get by just fine for the rest of your life never learning a word from another language. On the other hand, being multilingual can really only help you in the long run as more and more non-English speakers make their way into the country or start doing business here.

As for it being essential teaching your kids Spanish, I'd say it's most important for them to first learn English. Beyond that, personally, I'd rather my kids also learned Mandarin than Spanish.

[Chad]

It's not really essential for your kids to learn Spanish unless you live in a border town. Once in a while I have to use Spanish to get something I need when there's no English-speakers around but this is not very common.
I think the big fear of people who want English dominance is cities like Laredo, TX where almost nothing is written in English and many city officials only speak Spanish. They probably think their town is next. But most Latino youths I meet around here are fluent in English. Some of them whose families have been in the US for a few generations can't speak Spanish at all.
The only times I've been lectured by Spanish-speakers about why I should learn Spanish was from these guys I used to work with. These guys are kind of ridiculous and consider themselves "patriotic" Mexicans who fly the Mexican flag on their trucks, wear huge belt buckles, and always say they own a ranch back in Mexico. They're basically just rednecks. They told me, "Tejas belongs to Mexico, speak Spanish here."

[kuilong]

OK fine, but.....................this was our country first.

Firstly, Americans using that reasoning are bound to get into trouble, since we all know whose country this really was first.

Secondly, it's not even always true. There are plenty of Californio families in this state, who've been here long before my ancestors, or your ancestors, or most of the Anglos' ancestors arrived. They didn't cross the border, the border crossed them (Mexican-American War q.v.)

Thirdly, as Chad points out, the number of second-generation immigrants who don't speak English "well" or "very well" is virtually nil. In fact, the percentage of immigrants (first and second generation) who don't speak English is far less today than it was during most of the 19th century. At one point, the German-language New Yorker Staats-Zeitung had a higher circulation than the New York Times, and yet today you'd be hard-pressed to find a descendant of the people who lived in German enclaves who doesn't speak English as well as you or I do. Is there something "different" about Hispanics such that this won't happen to them?

And fourthly, you yourself admit that you don't need to speak English to go about your day-to-day life. So if other people don't speak English, whether by choice, or (more likely) by lack of opportunity to learn, how does that impact you?

[Hiroshi2]

I don't care if people speak English in private situations - I'm talking about things like dealing with government (for example, driver's licenses - if you can't read English, why should you drive in this country? Lot of people on the road can't read a lick of English). As far as "evolving with the changes" in this country................why should I? It's one thing for cultures to mix and mingle but when you talk about people seriously wanting to change the fundamental, basic language that we use in America - English - to Spanish, or Mandarin, or whatever, no I don't care for that.



Firstly, Americans using that reasoning are bound to get into trouble, since we all know whose country this really was first.


Bullshit. I was born here - and I'm a U.S. citizen, and have been since I was born - this is MY country, just as much as any other citizen. Like I said, why should the government bend over backwards, as bluemonq said, to give non-english speaking people in this country driver's licenses, car insurance, etc.



Hiroshi, there's just so many problems with that post, I don't even know how to begin to address it.



Begin to. I'ma about to be out the door in a minute - that'll give you time to address before I get back.


Is it too politically incorrect? Please don't give me liberal bs. Just tell me why people who move to another country shouldn't have to learn that country's language. People get mad cause Americans go to someplace like France and expect to speak English and not learn any French...................but then those are the same people who say that immigrants here shouldn't have to learn English in order to deal with the government. And I say, why the fuck not. The law is written in English. All of it. Well, I take that back - some of it is in Latin, but either way it goes, it ain't in Spanish. Or Mandarin. And Latin's a dead language, so learn some fuckin English, at least enough to read the signs on the highway, etc. etc.

[tvbdude]

people that don't speak english get on with their lives fine like my parents.

[Banana]

Hiroshi, let me just sum it up for you very easily.

The white people that "discovered" this country took it form the Native Americans. In turn, the Mexicans are taking it from you.

Nothing is really lost; it's simply transferred from one perspective to another.

[hooligan]

There's no "nationalized" language in the US for the reasons I think a lot of people have described above. It's unfair to a democracy to expect everyone who lives in a country to speak that country's language and one of the selling points of US culture is it's diversity. And that includes the diversity of language.

You wonder why in many states election material is printed in more than English (including many Asian languages like Japanese, Vietnamese, and Chinese - both simplified and traditional). The idea behind this is that this nation is a nation of immigrants and how do you expect a country to call itself a democracy when it discrimininates against its many citizens.

Personally, I work in a lab where 80% of the people there weren't born in the US and I'm fine with them speaking in other languages than English around me. I do ask them what they said sometimes and they NEVER mind telling me what they were talking about. It's also surpising to find people who come from immigrant backgrounds who talk about how they hate people who speak in languages they don't understand.

I think you all need to get off your collective asses and understand what "diversity" really means.

[bluemonq]

You wonder why in many states election material is printed in more than English (including many Asian languages like Japanese, Vietnamese, and Chinese - both simplified and traditional). The idea behind this is that this nation is a nation of immigrants and how do you expect a country to call itself a democracy when it discrimininates against its many citizens.
if it's really about not discriminating against citizens...

List of Countries and Independent Territories
Abkhazia - Republic of Abkhazia (de facto independent state inside Georgia)
Afghanistan - Islamic Republic of Afghanistan
Akrotiri - Akrotiri Sovereign Base Area (overseas territory of the United Kingdom)
Åland - Åland Islands (autonomous province of Finland recognized by international treaty)
Albania - Republic of Albania
Algeria - People's Democratic Republic of Algeria
American Samoa - Territory of American Samoa (unincorporated unorganized territory of the United States)
Andorra - Principality of Andorra (co-principality with the President of the French Republic and the Bishop of Urgell, Spain as ex officio heads of state)
Angola - Republic of Angola
Anguilla (overseas territory of the United Kingdom)
Antigua and Barbuda (Commonwealth Realm)
Argentina - Argentine Republic (federal state, also named Argentine Nation for purposes of legislation)
Armenia - Republic of Armenia
Aruba (overseas country in the Kingdom of the Netherlands)
Ascension Island (dependency of Saint Helena, an overseas territory of the United Kingdom)
Australia - Commonwealth of Australia (federal state, Commonwealth Realm)
Austria - Republic of Austria (federal state)
Azerbaijan - Republic of Azerbaijan (see also Nagorno-Karabakh)

B
Bahamas, The - Commonwealth of The Bahamas (Commonwealth Realm)
Bahrain - Kingdom of Bahrain
Bangladesh - People's Republic of Bangladesh
Barbados (Commonwealth Realm)
Belarus - Republic of Belarus
Belgium - Kingdom of Belgium (federal state)
Belize (Commonwealth Realm)
Benin - Republic of Benin
Bermuda (overseas territory of the United Kingdom)
Bhutan - Kingdom of Bhutan
Bolivia - Republic of Bolivia
Bosnia and Herzegovina (federal state)
Botswana - Republic of Botswana
Brazil - Federative Republic of Brazil (federal state)
Brunei - Negara Brunei Darussalam
Bulgaria - Republic of Bulgaria
Burkina Faso
See Myanmar for Burma
Burundi - Republic of Burundi


C
Cambodia - Kingdom of Cambodia
Cameroon - Republic of Cameroon
Canada (federal state, Commonwealth Realm, officially also (but infrequently) referred to as Dominion of Canada)
Cape Verde - Republic of Cape Verde
Cayman Islands (overseas territory of the United Kingdom)
Central African Republic (sometimes also rendered as Central Africa)
Chad - Republic of Chad
Chile - Republic of Chile
China (PRC) - People's Republic of China
See Taiwan (ROC) for the Republic of China (see also One-China policy and dispute over UN representation between PRC and ROC)
Christmas Island - Territory of Christmas Island (overseas territory of Australia)
Cocos (Keeling) Islands - Territory of Cocos (Keeling) Islands (overseas territory of Australia)
Colombia - Republic of Colombia
Comoros - Union of the Comoros (federal state)
Congo (Brazzaville) - Republic of the Congo
Congo (Kinshasa) - Democratic Republic of the Congo (formerly and popularly known as Zaire)
Cook Islands (self-governing state in free association with New Zealand)
Costa Rica - Republic of Costa Rica
Côte d'Ivoire - Republic of Côte d'Ivoire (formerly and popularly known as Ivory Coast)
Croatia - Republic of Croatia
Cuba - Republic of Cuba
Cyprus - Republic of Cyprus (see also Northern Cyprus)
Czech Republic (sometimes also rendered as Czechia)


D
Denmark - Kingdom of Denmark
Dhekelia - Dhekelia Sovereign Base Area (overseas territory of the United Kingdom)
Djibouti - Republic of Djibouti
Dominica - Commonwealth of Dominica
Dominican Republic (sometimes also rendered as The Dominican)


E
See Timor-Leste for East Timor
Ecuador - Republic of Ecuador
Egypt - Arab Republic of Egypt
El Salvador - Republic of El Salvador
Equatorial Guinea - Republic of Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea - State of Eritrea
Estonia - Republic of Estonia
Ethiopia - Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia (federal state)


F
Falkland Islands (overseas territory of the United Kingdom, also claimed by, and a former possession of Argentina named Islas Malvinas)
Faroe Islands (self-governing overseas administrative division of Denmark)
Fiji - Republic of the Fiji Islands
Finland - Republic of Finland
France - French Republic
French Polynesia (overseas country of France)


G
Gabon - Gabonese Republic
Gambia, The - Republic of The Gambia
Georgia (see also Abkhazia and South Ossetia)
Germany - Federal Republic of Germany (federal state)
Ghana - Republic of Ghana
Gibraltar (overseas territory of the United Kingdom)
Greece - Hellenic Republic
Greenland (self-governing overseas administrative division of Denmark)
Grenada (Commonwealth Realm)
Guam - Territory of Guam (unincorporated organized territory of the United States)
Guatemala - Republic of Guatemala
Guernsey - Bailiwick of Guernsey (British Crown dependency, including its self-governing dependencies Alderney, Herm and Sark)
Guinea - Republic of Guinea
Guinea-Bissau - Republic of Guinea-Bissau
Guyana - Co-operative Republic of Guyana
[edit]

H
Haiti - Republic of Haiti
Honduras - Republic of Honduras
Hong Kong - Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China (diplomatically known as Hong Kong, China)
Hungary - Republic of Hungary


I
Iceland - Republic of Iceland
India - Republic of India (federal state)
Indonesia - Republic of Indonesia
Iran - Islamic Republic of Iran
Iraq - Republic of Iraq
Ireland (also commonly referred to as the Republic of Ireland as the official "description" of the state in order to distinguish it from the island of Ireland as a whole)
Israel - State of Israel
Italy - Italian Republic
See Côte d'Ivoire for Ivory Coast


J
Jamaica (Commonwealth Realm)
Japan
Jersey - Bailiwick of Jersey (British Crown dependency)
Jordan - Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan


K
Kazakhstan - Republic of Kazakhstan
Kenya - Republic of Kenya
Kiribati - Republic of Kiribati
Korea (North) - Democratic People's Republic of Korea (popularly known as North Korea)
Korea (South) - Republic of Korea (popularly known as South Korea)
Kosovo - Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohia (autonomous province of Serbia and Montenegro under UN interim civilian administration)
Kuwait - State of Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan - Kyrgyz Republic (sometimes also rendered as Kirghizia)


L
Laos - Lao People's Democratic Republic
Latvia - Republic of Latvia
Lebanon - Republic of Lebanon
Lesotho - Kingdom of Lesotho
Liberia - Republic of Liberia
Libya - Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya
Liechtenstein - Principality of Liechtenstein
Lithuania - Republic of Lithuania
Luxembourg - Grand Duchy of Luxembourg


M
Macau - Macau Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China (diplomatically known as Macau, China)
Macedonia - Republic of Macedonia (referred to by the United Nations and a number of countries and international organizations as The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia)
Madagascar - Republic of Madagascar
Malawi - Republic of Malawi
Malaysia (federal state)
Maldives - Republic of Maldives
Mali - Republic of Mali
Malta - Republic of Malta
Man, Isle of - Isle of Man (British Crown dependency, also known as Mann)
Marshall Islands - Republic of the Marshall Islands (US associated state)
Mauritania - Islamic Republic of Mauritania
Mauritius - Republic of Mauritius
Mayotte (overseas collectivity of France)
Mexico - United Mexican States (federal state)
Micronesia - Federated States of Micronesia (federal state, US associated state)
Moldova - Republic of Moldova (see also Pridnestrovie)
Monaco - Principality of Monaco
Mongolia (sometimes also rendered as Outer Mongolia (together with Tuva) in order to distinguish it from Inner Mongolia of the People's Republic of China)
Montserrat (overseas territory of the United Kingdom)
Morocco - Kingdom of Morocco (see also Western Sahara)
Mozambique - Republic of Mozambique
Myanmar - Union of Myanmar (formerly and popularly known as Burma)


N
Nagorno-Karabakh - Nagorno-Karabakh Republic (de facto independent state inside Azerbaijan)
Namibia - Republic of Namibia
Nauru - Republic of Nauru
Nepal - Kingdom of Nepal
Netherlands, the - Kingdom of the Netherlands (legally the Netherlands refers to the mainland European part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, with the latter consisting of the Netherlands and two overseas countries, namely Aruba and the Netherlands Antilles)
Netherlands Antilles (overseas country in the Kingdom of the Netherlands)
New Caledonia (sui generis collectivity of France)
New Zealand (Commonwealth Realm)
Nicaragua - Republic of Nicaragua
Niger - Republic of Niger
Nigeria - Federal Republic of Nigeria (federal state)
Niue (self-governing state in free association with New Zealand)
Norfolk Island - Territory of Norfolk Island (overseas territory of Australia)
Northern Cyprus - Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (de facto independent state inside Cyprus, recognized only by Turkey)
Northern Mariana Islands - Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands (unincorporated organized territory (commonwealth) in political union with the United States)
Norway - Kingdom of Norway


O
Oman - Sultanate of Oman


P
Pakistan - Islamic Republic of Pakistan
Palau - Republic of Palau (US associated state)
Palestine - State of Palestine (currently recognized by over 90 countries and further supported by other countries according the Palestinian National Authority a pivotal role in the process that may involve their eventually recognizing the State as sovereign)
Panama - Republic of Panama
Papua New Guinea - Independent State of Papua New Guinea (Commonwealth Realm)
Paraguay - Republic of Paraguay
Peru - Republic of Peru
Philippines, the - Republic of the Philippines
Pitcairn Islands - Pitcairn, Henderson, Ducie, and Oeno Islands (overseas territory of the United Kingdom)
See Transnistria for Pridnestrovie
Poland - Republic of Poland
Portugal - Portuguese Republic
Puerto Rico - Commonwealth of Puerto Rico (unincorporated organized territory (commonwealth) associated with the United States)


Q
Qatar - State of Qatar


R
Romania
Russia - Russian Federation (federal state)
Rwanda - Republic of Rwanda


S
Saint Helena (overseas territory of the United Kingdom)
Saint Kitts and Nevis - Federation of Saint Kitts and Nevis (federal state, Commonwealth Realm)
Saint Lucia (Commonwealth Realm)
Saint Pierre and Miquelon (overseas collectivity of France)
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines (Commonwealth Realm)
Samoa - Independent State of Samoa
San Marino - Most Serene Republic of San Marino
São Tomé and Príncipe - Democratic Republic of São Tomé and Príncipe
Saudi Arabia - Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
Senegal - Republic of Senegal
Serbia and Montenegro - State Union of Serbia and Montenegro (federal state, its province of Kosovo is under UN interim civilian administration)
Seychelles - Republic of Seychelles
Sierra Leone - Republic of Sierra Leone
Singapore - Republic of Singapore
Slovakia - Slovak Republic
Slovenia - Republic of Slovenia
Solomon Islands (Commonwealth Realm)
Somalia (the whole country is presently fragmented with its Transitional National Government in exile, see also Somaliland)
Somaliland - Republic of Somaliland (de facto independent state inside Somalia)
South Africa - Republic of South Africa
South Ossetia - Republic of South Ossetia (de facto independent state inside Georgia)
Spain - Kingdom of Spain
Sri Lanka - Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka
Sudan - Republic of the Sudan
Suriname - Republic of Suriname
Svalbard (overseas territory of Norway recognized by international treaty)
Swaziland - Kingdom of Swaziland
Sweden - Kingdom of Sweden
Switzerland - Swiss Confederation (federal state)
Syria - Syrian Arab Republic


T
Taiwan (ROC) - Republic of China (diplomatically sometimes known as Chinese Taipei (or other names), regarded by UN as "Taiwan, Province of China", the political status of the ROC and the legal status of the Taiwan Island (and its outlying islands) are in dispute)
Tajikistan - Republic of Tajikistan
Tanzania - United Republic of Tanzania (federal state)
Thailand - Kingdom of Thailand
Timor-Leste - Democratic Republic of Timor-Leste (popularly known as East Timor)
Togo - Togolese Republic
Tokelau (overseas territory of New Zealand)
Tonga - Kingdom of Tonga
Transnistria - Transnistrian or Pridnestrovian Moldovan Republic (the Transnistrian government uses as translation Pridnestrovie, de facto independent state inside Moldova)
Trinidad and Tobago - Republic of Trinidad and Tobago
Tristan da Cunha (dependency of Saint Helena, an overseas territory of the United Kingdom)
Tunisia - Tunisian Republic
Turkey - Republic of Turkey
Turkmenistan
Turks and Caicos Islands (overseas territory of the United Kingdom)
Tuvalu (Commonwealth Realm)


U
Uganda - Republic of Uganda
Ukraine
United Arab Emirates (federal state)
United Kingdom - United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (Commonwealth Realm)
United States - United States of America (federal state)
Uruguay - Oriental Republic of Uruguay
Uzbekistan - Republic of Uzbekistan


V
Vanuatu - Republic of Vanuatu
Vatican City - State of the Vatican City (administered by a Pontifical Commission appointed by the Pope who is concurrently the head of the Holy See and that of the Vatican City)
Venezuela - Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela (federal state)
Vietnam - Socialist Republic of Vietnam
Virgin Islands (British) - British Virgin Islands (overseas territory of the United Kingdom)
Virgin Islands (U.S.) - United States Virgin Islands (unincorporated organized territory of the United States, popularly known in its abbreviated terms as U.S. Virgin Islands)


W
Wallis and Futuna (overseas collectivity of France)
Western Sahara - Saharawi Arab Democratic Republic (currently recognized by over 40 countries, the SADR only exercises effective control over the territory east of Moroccan Wall, whereas large portion of the territory is occupied by and integrated in Morocco)


Y
Yemen - Republic of Yemen


Z
Zambia - Republic of Zambia
Zimbabwe - Republic of Zimbabwe

there are also 6800 officially recognized languages. please explain to me how you plan on providing election literature to immigrants from even a fraction of these countries. what do you mean, it's impractical? wouldn't you be discriminating against all those groups that you left out, simply because they're smaller populations? i might have a fuzzy memory, but i recall back in american history class that we were told that the government was responsible for protecting the minority from being run roughshod over. and now you're saying that the minority shold have a harder time in obtaining a driver's license or participate in elections?

[kuilong]

Bullshit. I was born here - and I'm a U.S. citizen, and have been since I was born - this is MY country, just as much as any other citizen. Like I said, why should the government bend over backwards, as bluemonq said, to give non-english speaking people in this country driver's licenses, car insurance, etc.

Y'know, you could do with being a little bit more civil. I'm not calling you a racist, or intolerant, or anything else.

Secondly, if the "we were here first" argument was watertight, none of us would be here, since the Native Americans were here first, and they weren't too enthused about all the other people showing up.

And thirdly, I think it's hardly "bending over backwards." One of the government's jobs is to make it easier for its citizens to participate in public life. Translating election materials is a relatively cheap way to do this, so I'm not really sure why you're opposed to it.

I think you might have this idea that a lot of immigrants "refuse" to learn English. But as you indicated in your first post, it's a very difficult life for people in this country who don't speak English. It's embarassing to have to take your children to the doctor's office, or to be unable to take anything but the most menial work. If this is the case, why aren't they learning English in droves? Well, they are, as I noted in my last post. But learning a language is really hard, especially when you don't have the resources to just go and take a class (leaving the kids at home? forgoing work?). If you speak a second language fluently, I'm sure you realize how difficult it is to achieve that skill.

So, if I can leave you with three questions: (1) Do you see any reason why Hispanics, who are learning English in greater numbers than previous immigrants to the U.S., won't become just as linguistically assimilated in a few generations? (2) Why does the issue matter to you, personally? and (3) How are you going to get these people to speak English?

[Hiroshi2]

Secondly, if the "we were here first" argument was watertight, none of us would be here, since the Native Americans were here first, and they weren't too enthused about all the other people showing up.



No it wouldn't - I told you I was born here, and so were all these generations of my anecestors, going back further than this country's very existence. Don't sit up here and tell me that this country really belongs to the Native Americans when I was born and raised here.


Once again, some of you are missing my point. I could care less what language people use in private, amongst friends and family. All I'm saying is why should government try to accomodate all these different languages? No matter how many people here speak Spanish or Mandarin, we started out speaking English, we should stick to that for the sake of simplicity and unity. Some of you say that this viewpoint is racist and divisive, when really it's just the opposite. To cater to dozens if not hundreds of different languages is divisive in and of itself. The English language is what unifies us - it's why I'm even able to speak and communicate to all of y'all, even though I can clearly see that we are nothing alike, in terms of background, etc.


I think this country is too divided as it is and yes I believe that making English the one and only official language would help to unify everybody, instead of trying to have everybody go their own way, which does nothing but further divide the country.

[Martino]

if it's really about not discriminating against citizens... etc.

Nice long list, but not really relevant (or even, at worst, self defeating). A lot of these countries and cultures are multi-lingual, and always have been.

Why not repost the list, with an amendment of what their major languages are?

I imagine a big slice of these will have Arabic as their first or second language. I counted at least 30 countries who probably list English as being their official language (isn't it the second most widely spoken language in India, after Hindi?). Then there's Spanish and Portugeuse, French of course...

Why do these countries have more than one language? Because countries are made up of the people who live, work and speak in them, not the other way round.

[kuilong]

No it wouldn't - I told you I was born here, and so were all these generations of my anecestors, going back further than this country's very existence. Don't sit up here and tell me that this country really belongs to the Native Americans when I was born and raised here.

I'm not saying the country "really belongs" to anybody. I'm saying that your argument that you were "here first" doesn't make sense—plenty of Hispanics were born here too, and many have families that have been in this area longer than yours.

ðe mąžą ðalįį škǫštapi tą ie špižǫǫ

(Osage for "If you want to live here, learn the language!")

Once again, some of you are missing my point. I could care less what language people use in private, amongst friends and family. All I'm saying is why should government try to accomodate all these different languages? No matter how many people here speak Spanish or Mandarin, we started out speaking English, we should stick to that for the sake of simplicity and unity.

Um, I live in an area in where we didn't start out speaking English, but where it was imposed after the U.S. invaded on extremely questionable grounds. Why should Washington and other people from the East impose English as a national language on us?

I don't really see what the problem is with the government providing election materials and so on in various languages, since it's really cheap. In fact, in some cases—like with the IRS—the increased tax revenues from printing multilingual forms exceed the costs of the forms. The U.S. government has issued multilingual documents since forever: even the bleeding Continental Congress published documents in German and French! Not publishing them won't make immigrants learn English any faster, it'll just make life for them more unpleasant.

I also don't think our multilingualism is particularly damaging to national unity. As I said earlier, our country has historically been a lot more multilingual than it is now. Has this had a significant negative impact on our national unity?

I'd still be interested in answers to the three questions I asked in my last post, by the way.

[Chad]

All I'm saying is why should government try to accomodate all these different languages? No matter how many people here speak Spanish or Mandarin, we started out speaking English, we should stick to that for the sake of simplicity and unity.
Why should the government try to accomodate English-speakers? Answer that question and you will have the answer to your own question.
Who is "we"? My mother's parents, who were American citizens, did not start out speaking English as their first language. My father did not learn English until the 1960's (he was born in the 1940's). He is also an American citizen. Americans speak a lot of different languages and always have. I think this point has already been made.
Eliminating the use of other languages from the government would effectively exclude many people who don't speak English. It wouldn't unify anybody, it would just exclude people. The government had a choice between co-opting or excluding and it chose to co-opt because excluding would be dangerous, it is a recipe for disaster. That is exactly how separatist groups in other countries gain legitimacy. They have a valid complaint that the state's government systematically excludes their group by using a language unfamiliar to them and thus excludes them from political input or representation which leads to neglect and abuse of minorities. Next thing you know there's a rebel army taking hostages and bombing police stations and wants to establish an independent state.

[hooligan]

if it's really about not discriminating against citizens...

there are also 6800 officially recognized languages. please explain to me how you plan on providing election literature to immigrants from even a fraction of these countries. what do you mean, it's impractical? wouldn't you be discriminating against all those groups that you left out, simply because they're smaller populations? i might have a fuzzy memory, but i recall back in american history class that we were told that the government was responsible for protecting the minority from being run roughshod over. and now you're saying that the minority shold have a harder time in obtaining a driver's license or participate in elections?

Um, I'm not saying the minority should have a harder time obtaining a driver's license or their right to franchise. It's hard but this country ought to try. One day we all might be speaking Chinese in the US. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue? The fact that there are a lot of languages, bravo, you've proved your point. But what I'm saying is that the US should accomodate those who cannot communicate too well in the dominant language with their rights.

Now what the fuck are you saying?

No it wouldn't - I told you I was born here, and so were all these generations of my anecestors, going back further than this country's very existence. Don't sit up here and tell me that this country really belongs to the Native Americans when I was born and raised here.

Once again, some of you are missing my point. I could care less what language people use in private, amongst friends and family. All I'm saying is why should government try to accomodate all these different languages? No matter how many people here speak Spanish or Mandarin, we started out speaking English, we should stick to that for the sake of simplicity and unity. Some of you say that this viewpoint is racist and divisive, when really it's just the opposite. To cater to dozens if not hundreds of different languages is divisive in and of itself. The English language is what unifies us - it's why I'm even able to speak and communicate to all of y'all, even though I can clearly see that we are nothing alike, in terms of background, etc.

I think this country is too divided as it is and yes I believe that making English the one and only official language would help to unify everybody, instead of trying to have everybody go their own way, which does nothing but further divide the country.

Rights. If you're a citizne of this country and cannot have your rights in English you're still allowed to them and that's why translators are required by the federal government. You cannot exercise your rights in English, then you are allowed to do so in your own language.

[Paradox]

Personally, I feel that you shouldn't be forced to speak the native tongue if you don't want to learn. That's the choices you can make in a free society. However, they shouldn't push their language on us either. The majority of Americans speak english so there shouldn't be any need to add in spanish options on every single government line. Also, if you can't get a job because you don't speak english then you should forfeit your rights to whine about it.

[wawahwah]

if they don't know english when coming over here thats ok.

Aslong as they understand that they have to adapt and learn english and not hang out in chinatown speaking chinese. Like alot of parents who live in the country for decades

[bluemonq]

You wonder why in many states election material is printed in more than English (including many Asian languages like Japanese, Vietnamese, and Chinese - both simplified and traditional). The idea behind this is that this nation is a nation of immigrants and how do you expect a country to call itself a democracy when it discrimininates against its many citizens.
Um, I'm not saying the minority should have a harder time obtaining a driver's license or their right to franchise. It's hard but this country ought to try. One day we all might be speaking Chinese in the US. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue? The fact that there are a lot of languages, bravo, you've proved your point. But what I'm saying is that the US should accomodate those who cannot communicate too well in the dominant language with their rights.

Now what the fuck are you saying?
i'm saying, my rattled friend, how far are you willing to go with it? at what point are you going to say, sorry, there's just too few of you who speak that language. if you aren't, then good, at least you're consistent. you do realize the logistics and resources that would be required to pull that off, no? if someone speaks batak and only batak, how dedicated would you be to finding him or her a translator? would you do that for every situation? if no, why not? if yes, again, good for you - not from my pocketbook though. and also, what if - in the case of the dmv - they're not citizens? what if they're permanent residents? do they benefit from our apparently limitless funds?
Nice long list, but not really relevant (or even, at worst, self defeating). A lot of these countries and cultures are multi-lingual, and always have been.

Why not repost the list, with an amendment of what their major languages are?
it'll be difficult in some cases to find the breakdown, and a lot of those countries have small populations. so i'll stick with just the more popular ones.
100 million speakers or more (first or second; estimates):
Chinese, Hindi, Spanish, English, Arabic, Portuguese, Bengali, Russian, Japanese, Punjabi, German, French, Persian, Urdu

50–100 million speakers
Javanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Telegu, Marathi, Tamil, Italian, Turkish, Gujarati, Polish, Ukranian, Malayalam, Kannada, Oriya, Burmese, Thai

the elections board and dmv don't even begin covering that list.

for a breakdown of what the us population speaks at home:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762163.html

[kuilong]

i'm saying, my rattled friend, how far are you willing to go with it? at what point are you going to say, sorry, there's just too few of you who speak that language. if you aren't, then good, at least you're consistent. you do realize the logistics and resources that would be required to pull that off, no? if someone speaks batak and only batak, how dedicated would you be to finding him or her a translator? would you do that for every situation? if no, why not? if yes, again, good for you - not from my pocketbook though. and also, what if - in the case of the dmv - they're not citizens? what if they're permanent residents? do they benefit from our apparently limitless funds?

According to Section 203 of the Voting Rights Act, whose provisions were first adopted in 1975, multilingual ballots need only be provided when the covered minorities (Asian Americans, Amerinds, and Hispanics) either form more than 5% of the eligible voting population or comprise more than 10,000 people, and their literacy rate is lower than the national literacy rate. Several counties provide bilingual assistance in languages that they're not required to (for instance, my county is only required to provide them in Spanish, but also provides Vietnamese and Chinese).

The costs vary widely over the counties, but many counties provide oral assistance using bilingual poll workers, and reported the cost as zero. Los Angeles County provides assistance in Spanish, Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese, and Tagalog—more than any other county in the U.S.—and spent about 3.6% of its election budget on providing ballots in these languages.

I don't really understand the argument that just because one can't provide bilingual ballots in every single language there is, one needn't provide them in any. (Do you apply this logic when you donate aid to the Hurricane Katrina victims? Like, I can't help inner-city Los Angeles youths as well, so I may as well not help the victims in Louisiana and Mississppi?) I don't understand counting the number of speakers of each language, either, since it ignores significant bilingualism: I bet most Berber speakers speak Arabic or French, f'rinstance. This is especially the case in the U.S., where virtually all citizens speak passable English in addition to any other language, but may lack the reading comprehension to understand the issues they're voting on perfectly. I think paying a bit extra is worth it to cull some donkey voting.

I'm a little puzzled as to why Hiroshi objects so strenuously to bilingual ballots, though, since... let me count... (*takes off shoes, counts on toes, puts on shoes again*) exactly zero counties in Alabama provide bilingual assistance, either written or oral. How exactly does it hurt him when we in the Bay Area do provide bilingual assistance?

ᎢᏳᏃ ᎠᏂ ᎢᏣᏚᎵ ᎢᏣᏁᎳᏗᏍᏗ, ᎠᏂᏣᎳᎩ ᎦᎰᏙᏗ ᎦᏬᏂᎯᏍᏗ ᎢᏣᏕᎶᏍᏗ!

(Cherokee for "If y'all want to live here, learn the language!")

[Chad]

as a side note, when I worked for the Census Bureau in 2000 as an enumerator, they gave us a large 8"x11" three-page fold-out sheet that had numerous languages written on it so that the person we were interviewing could point at the language that they speak/read. I don't remember exactly how many languages were on that sheet but it was more than 30. A couple of them I didn't recognize.
The person would point at their language and I would say "thanks, good day" and report back to the office so they would know which person to send to that house who could speak that language.

[kusojiji]

Hiroshi, let me just sum it up for you very easily.

The white people that "discovered" this country took it form the Native Americans. In turn, the Mexicans are taking it from you..


Probably not a good idea to look at it that way.

[bluemonq]

According to Section 203 of the Voting Rights Act, whose provisions were first adopted in 1975, multilingual ballots need only be provided when the covered minorities (Asian Americans, Amerinds, and Hispanics) either form more than 5% of the eligible voting population or comprise more than 10,000 people, and their literacy rate is lower than the national literacy rate. Several counties provide bilingual assistance in languages that they're not required to (for instance, my county is only required to provide them in Spanish, but also provides Vietnamese and Chinese).

The costs vary widely over the counties, but many counties provide oral assistance using bilingual poll workers, and reported the cost as zero. Los Angeles County provides assistance in Spanish, Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese, and Tagalog—more than any other county in the U.S.—and spent about 3.6% of its election budget on providing ballots in these languages.

i personally don't have any objections to it, playing more devil's advocate than anything else. my point is, ben's bringing up this entire "principles" thing; the VRA is another matter entirely. what i'm trying to sketch out is what exactly the principles of "equal and fair" are, and whether there are any limits; if so, why they are where they are if it isn't just a matter of convenience, and if not, at what point does it just become completely ridiculous?

[Martino]

it'll be difficult in some cases to find the breakdown, and a lot of those countries have small populations. so i'll stick with just the more popular ones.
100 million speakers or more (first or second; estimates):
Chinese, Hindi, Spanish, English, Arabic, Portuguese, Bengali, Russian, Japanese, Punjabi, German, French, Persian, Urdu

50–100 million speakers
Javanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Telegu, Marathi, Tamil, Italian, Turkish, Gujarati, Polish, Ukranian, Malayalam, Kannada, Oriya, Burmese, Thai

the elections board and dmv don't even begin covering that list.

for a breakdown of what the us population speaks at home:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762163.html

Mmm, you seem to be missing your own point. You chose to post a long list of countries not languages, and I rightly pointed out that (like the USA) most have more than one major language, and that many accommodate 'foreign' languages because the populace speaks them.

If the US has populations that speak and read Chinese, Hindi, Urdu, what have you, its the US's duty - not to mention in its own interest - to serve its people.

[SunWuKong]

"it's a free country." nobody should be required to learn any languages. and nobody is required to even participate in the country's political process.

that being said, i think non-English speakers should at least learn some basic communication skills in English. not for the benefit of others around them that feel "uncomfortable" or "alienated", but for their own benefit, since English is the most widely used language in the country and many official documentation is only available in English.

[hooligan]

i'm saying, my rattled friend, how far are you willing to go with it? at what point are you going to say, sorry, there's just too few of you who speak that language. if you aren't, then good, at least you're consistent. you do realize the logistics and resources that would be required to pull that off, no? if someone speaks batak and only batak, how dedicated would you be to finding him or her a translator? would you do that for every situation? if no, why not? if yes, again, good for you - not from my pocketbook though. and also, what if - in the case of the dmv - they're not citizens? what if they're permanent residents? do they benefit from our apparently limitless funds?

it'll be difficult in some cases to find the breakdown, and a lot of those countries have small populations. so i'll stick with just the more popular ones.
100 million speakers or more (first or second; estimates):
Chinese, Hindi, Spanish, English, Arabic, Portuguese, Bengali, Russian, Japanese, Punjabi, German, French, Persian, Urdu

50–100 million speakers
Javanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Telegu, Marathi, Tamil, Italian, Turkish, Gujarati, Polish, Ukranian, Malayalam, Kannada, Oriya, Burmese, Thai

the elections board and dmv don't even begin covering that list.

for a breakdown of what the us population speaks at home:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762163.html

rofl, you don't even pay taxes. get over it, there are people here who deserve rights just as you do.

read chad's response.

[bluemonq]

rofl, you don't even pay taxes. get over it, there are people here who deserve rights just as you do.

read chad's response.
actually, i do now. this year i'll be paying $240 using the 1040 ez form. i can't take most of the deductions, and the few i could (tutition, for instance) i won't be taking because i managed to sock away enough scholarships for that while i was still under 18. you might think that mere pennies compared to whatever you have to pay, but as a broke college student(tm) it's a fortune.

as for chad's response, that was a census, which occurs every 10 years. right now we're talking about elections (which occur every year - or less here in california) and driver's licenses. in addition, the federal government was footing most if not all of the bill. many of the local governments that are doing this happen to be ones that are already suffering from tight budgets.

read sunwukong's response.

[Dei Wong]

No it wouldn't - I told you I was born here, and so were all these generations of my anecestors, going back further than this country's very existence. Don't sit up here and tell me that this country really belongs to the Native Americans when I was born and raised here.


Once again, some of you are missing my point. I could care less what language people use in private, amongst friends and family. All I'm saying is why should government try to accomodate all these different languages? No matter how many people here speak Spanish or Mandarin, we started out speaking English, we should stick to that for the sake of simplicity and unity. Some of you say that this viewpoint is racist and divisive, when really it's just the opposite. To cater to dozens if not hundreds of different languages is divisive in and of itself. The English language is what unifies us - it's why I'm even able to speak and communicate to all of y'all, even though I can clearly see that we are nothing alike, in terms of background, etc.


I think this country is too divided as it is and yes I believe that making English the one and only official language would help to unify everybody, instead of trying to have everybody go their own way, which does nothing but further divide the country.

You have a point. but I think the government should show some concern with more language friendly media. But at the same time some immigrants who come here and live here don't what to learn english which is wrong I think when come to a country you should try and learn the language that just makes sense. That should go for anyone in any country. If an American goes to live in France to live wouldn't be smart to learn French.

[hkRT]

To cater to dozens if not hundreds of different languages is divisive in and of itself. The English language is what unifies us - it's why I'm even able to speak and communicate to all of y'all, even though I can clearly see that we are nothing alike, in terms of background, etc.

I think this country is too divided as it is and yes I believe that making English the one and only official language would help to unify everybody, instead of trying to have everybody go their own way, which does nothing but further divide the country.

That's true, english is the primary language that we communicate in on this forum and in this country.

So why do we need other languages in the U.S.? Why not just one and one language only? It's back to the same argument again... English is fine as the official language, it is everywhere, deeply and firmly implemented in the government, the media, education, your daily lives. It is in no way threatened like some people want you to think. But isn't the country swamped by immigrants, particularly, ASIAN immigrants, who can't speak any English and apparently do not integrate? I don't think it is swamped. Easy, VISIBLE targets that cling together for a number of reasons? Yes.

I do not think it is poor english skills that divide people. It is more like a manifestation of division rather than the source of the division. Let's just compare with the language situation in China for argument sake. Many people think China is a homogeneous country inhabited by all-look-the-same Chinese speaking one chinese language. But we all know China has like 56 different ethnic groups and 7 main dialect groups with many subgroups. All these dialects are very different from each other, to an extent that they can actually be classified as distinct unrelated languages rather than dialects. But having so many different dialects does not divide people to make some people more chinese than others. Everyone there is unified by the official language Mandarin. So similarly, you are right that one official language is important in unifying diverse groups of people and that language happens to be English in the U.S.

But the similarities end there because in the U.S., speaking anything other than english is often deemed inferior, especially if it is languages that originate from what people call 2nd and 3rd world underdeveloped countries. And if you speak english not very well or kinda accented, mono english speakers might say "I don't understand what you are saying at all? (politely)" to "you stupid retard, what the hell are you speaking? Speak English or get the fuck out of here! Go back to where you came from! You (insert racial slurs and gibberish here)!" That's why many non-english speaking asians for instance are afraid to even speak english, not so much that they don't want to but more out of fear and also partly due to not being able to get past that learning curve. I cannot deny that there are also some people who refuse to learn English because they don't feel like it and they can afford not to. However, I'm sure there are tons more people who are also afraid to speak their non-english languages because they may be treated even worse than speaking broken english. So the result is not speaking much altogether in public and just speaking more freely in their non-english language when they are with their family and friends. There are also those imigrants who speak fairly reasonable English but get treated rudely anyway simply because a lot of native english speakers somewhat look down upon them deep down already, have no patience and take speaking english for granted.

Going back to the China example, we see people freely speaking different dialects in public (not just in private) in different provinces but also speaking fluent Mandarin which is the official language. People do not get harassed or seen as inferior for speaking different dialects. i.e. They have all been able to keep and preserve their own unique dialects and cultures before, during and after the unification by using Mandarin as the official language and one common chinese writing. Mandarin used to be a dialect spoken mostly by Beijing officials only. It was not made the official language until the 1900s. So how did everybody there become fluent in Mandarin today? Mandarin was implemented throughout the country. Writing was also unified. The different dialects and cultures are still preserved and reflected in the diversity of chinese cuisines, costumes, songs, movies, etc. So depending on how one sees diversity, it can actually enrich a country, complement one another, and enable continuous exchanges and new creative ideas-- whether it's in the arts, film, science and technology, etc. (probably also need the proper infrastructure, financial, political and social stability and some common understanding to do so).

I don't know the details on how exactly all the people in Mainland China came to be fluent in Mandarin but I suspect that everybody there started off probably at the same level and wasn't treated like a lower being or an outsider for not able to speak it initially, unlike in the U.S. today. Hong Kong, however, was leased to Britain under British rule for 99 years and so it lagged behind in Mandarin.

So back to the division in the U.S.... What is the source of the division again? Why can't people speak better English? Why do they cling to each other and not integrate? Why are people divided?

This is getting too long.. I don't know what my point is anymore... Here ends my rant.

[Chad]

I really don't understand how an encounter with someone who doesn't speak English can be so upsetting. What exactly happens? Do they mistakenly shoot you with a gun because they couldn't understand your request, "Please don't shoot me"? What the fuck is going on?
There's people, daily, multiple times a day, that approach me at my job whose English skills range from poor to non-existent. It doesn't hurt me. Sometimes there are misunderstandings and miscommunications, but two minutes later I've forgotten about it. Who cares? Mistakes can be fixed.
If it's something really important, interpreters get involved.
On the other hand, there's plenty of native English-speakers who can't communicate for shit. I find myself repeating answers to questions four or five times to them.
I think it's likely that this irrational fear of English being threatened by other languages is part of that whole "white hetero males are an endangered species!" BS.

Some immigrants are lucky enough to find themselves surrounded by people who can speak their language, so learning English won't be a top priority for them. Other immigrants find themselves surrounded by Spanish-speakers. Many Pakistani guys I've met could speak more Spanish than English. Immigrants from different places often live and work near each other so it's not unlikely that they pick up bits of each other's languages.

[diving_cats]

if u dont want to learn what the govt says u must then live in another country. in canada u must have 9 yrs mandatory french from grades 1 thru 9. do u think i wanted to learn it? no i did not. but i lived in this country so must follow the rules whether there r legitimate reasons to learn it or not. the states isnt the only country there r others which require u to know 2 or 3 languages throughout school.

besides i think its nice to know a little bit of a language. expand ur mind.

[deez nuts]

yes. if you don't, you're only impeding and hurting yourself.

[BBChinese]

I'm living in London so I do not have the issue of Spanish. However I believe that since the US has such a large percentage of Spanish speakers as their mother tongue, it would be idea that non-Spanish speakers should learn to speak Spanish and vice versa.

As regards to those who go to Japan and don't learn to speak Japanese is something I have never heard off. I learned Japanese for 2 years before going there (I am not Japanese) and I met alot of westerners there trying to acquire some degree of proficiency in Japanese whilst living there or prior to the move.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

So similarly, you are right that one official language is important in unifying diverse groups of people and that language happens to be English in the U.S. But the similarities end there because in the U.S., speaking anything other than english is often deemed inferior, especially if it is languages that originate from what people call 2nd and 3rd world underdeveloped countries.
The similarities don't end there at all, try speaking Uyghur in Shenzhen or any other big city where they think all Uyghurs are pickpockets. Or look at the reaction to any Cantopop stars who go to the mainland and use Cantonese or Cantomandarin to answer questions at press conferences --- "Speak in Mandarin!" (For that matter, try speaking Mandarin instead of Cantonese in Hong Kong when you're not wearing a suit. It wasn't the evil British imperialists who invented condescending Cantonese terms like "ah chaan" or "daai luk mui". I'm told Anhui dialect gets a similar reception in downtown Shanghai.).

Going back to the China example, we see people freely speaking different dialects in public (not just in private) in different provinces but also speaking fluent Mandarin which is the official language. People do not get harassed or seen as inferior for speaking different dialects. i.e. They have all been able to keep and preserve their own unique dialects and cultures before, during and after the unification by using Mandarin as the official language and one common chinese writing.
Not really ... plenty of counterexamples have been posted about on YW before ...
1. According to the mainland government's own statistics, nearly half the Chinese population can't carry on a conversation in Mandarin.
2. The producers of a Shanghainese language version of Tom and Jerry ran into difficulties due to national and municipal government's restrictions on broadcasting in dialect. (Compare to 6 Latino networks in the US using Spanish, and a plethora of local stations providing Chinese news).
3. Xinjiang University cancelled all classes teaching in Uyghur (unless they switched to using Mandarin) since 2002 by government order, including courses on Uyghur history and literature.
4. Chinese from other provinces complain about how announcements on public transit in Guangzhou are made in Cantonese before Mandarin

As regards to those who go to Japan and don't learn to speak Japanese is something I have never heard off. I learned Japanese for 2 years before going there (I am not Japanese) and I met alot of westerners there trying to acquire some degree of proficiency in Japanese whilst living there or prior to the move.
Out of the colleagues in my batch, there's one who still hasn't learned to read katakana more than a year after being transferred to Tokyo.

[Maru_chan]

well spanish is the most spoken language other than english in the US. and many people come into contact with spanish speaking people with their jobs and stuff so its very useful.

and china is becoming a world super power like the US so learning mandarin is also very useful in everyday society ^_^

[draconisz]

Of course a person does not have to speak English in America. But it does help.


I woke up this morning (left the TV on last night) and I saw "Dora the Explorer"......................I couldn't help but notice that they were speaking Spanish, and throwing it in conversations, almost as if they were trying to slip in some spanish words in there to teach little kids who never otherwise learn a lick of spanish how to speak some espanol. Anyway.................it got me wondering...............if this is America, why do we have to learn Spanish? I know we don't have an official language, but still. All of the government documents, etc. are written in English, the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, etc. You can't pass the bar, or take an LSAT, or even get into college to tell you the truth, not knowing how to read, write and speak English. So why is everybody trying to learn Spanish? I don't want to sound racist, becasue this isn't about race or ethnicity. I'm just wondering why does everybody make it sound like I have to learn Spanish because that's how the "new society" is going to be, and 50 years from now America is gonna be run by Latinos. OK fine, but.....................this was our country first. I was born here, and everybody around me spoke English. And now everybody's trying to change that all of a sudden by telling me it's "essential" to learn Spanish. Why? It's gotten to the point now where many spanish-speaking people that immigrate here don't even bother learning the shit. They get a job, raise kids, etc. w/o ever learning a bit of english. And I know this happens in other countries too................people move to Japan for a few months or a year or whatever and never learn japanese. But still.................it doesn't seem right. What do y'all think? Is it going to be essential that I teach my kids spanish?

[pikachupacabra]

Does anyone remember that story about the people in Koreatown (of korean and hispanic ethnicity) who only could speak korean and spanish, but were getting along just fine with each other?

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Does anyone remember that story about the people in Koreatown (of korean and hispanic ethnicity) who only could speak korean and spanish, but were getting along just fine with each other?
Here ya go:
http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=26494

There was also some mention of it in Blue Dreams (good book about the LA Riots) ...

[TB4000]

You ever seen that cartoon Maya and Miguel? Straight barrio spanglish up in that hood.

[demoore]

Everything changes. Nothing exists without change.

How long do you think the Romans expected their empire to last? 100 years? 1000 years? They never even considered the fact that their empire would fall apart. It has happened to every major empire and country in history; what makes anyone think the US is any different?

Countries changes names, but some basics stays.
For example, we use exactly the same letters than the Romans. Look at other culture for example chinese culture, the characters changed so much! And it's much more easyer to learn 2000 years Latin than 1000 years old Chinese...

[JesusIsmyFriend]

Is learning to speak English part of the Constitution? considering how there are a lot of translators these days and people can take the DMV test with the help of a translator, it's more difficult to accept the fact that "English" is mandatory to learn in this country.