Is dating preference based on race and racial stereotypes racist? [Archive]

Napoleon Chynamite

11-19-2004, 11:58 PM

If the preference is tied to power issues it's racist but to like red-haired women or women with glasses it is not usually about power.

But then again most dating preferences aren't about power anyway, right? It's usually either due to cultural familiarity or just because you think certain types of men/women are more attractive physically. But re: dating preferences that result due to misconceptions of other groups (e.g. someone likes Asian women cause they think they're all exotic and submissive, someone likes Latin men cause supposedly they think they're all great in bed, etc. etc.): Technically misconceptions and stereotypes are TIED to ultimately the socio-political hierarchy and power but the reason for the preference itself isn't about power, it's all about what turns you on, right? For this, I don't really believe that dating preferences based upon race is racist, but I do frown a bit upon preferences if they stem from racial stereotypes, but there seems to be a lot of gray area if you're gonna pass judgment. On an end note, I'm not backing asiaphiles here, but I'd be willing to say that a great deal of the white or non-Asian guys that prefer Asian women and are labeled as philes simply think Asian women look better than other women on the whole, with this preference in the 'Asian' appearance taking precedence over any type of perceived 'submissiveness' or 'exoticism'.

stunninglyAsian

11-20-2004, 07:15 AM

Race is a set of physical features and cultural practices. For example, if a man doesn't like big girls or isn't that crazy about blondes and prefers brunettes, nobody says he is prejudiced. Everybody has a set of physical features that they are attracted too- some like skinny some like fat. So to say I don't date black (or any other ethnicity) because I don't find them attractive is not racist. Or to say, "I only date black women because I think they are so beautiful." is not having a fetish for black women. It's what they say after that- that tells you if they've got a racist fetish or not. For example, "I love Asian women, they are so pretty... and I love how they do anything for you. They are the most submissive and don't give any lip like other women."

But then again, it is difficult to separate the physicial features of a race and their stereotypes.

TB4000

11-20-2004, 07:49 AM

Cipherous

11-20-2004, 07:50 AM

Hi, I'm black hapa, I'm curious in everyone's opinions on this preference whether if it's racist or not. Thank you for your votes.

EXAMPLE:
"I don't find MOST black women attractive, too ugly, too dark. I like pretty women, and I like SOME black women who are pretty and feminine."
Since this is a predominantly Asian forum, I don't think many could relate to the latter statement.

I think if you changed around some words to make it more equivalent.

I don't find MOST asian women attractive, too ugly, too childish.I like pretty women and I like SOME asian women who are pretty and sexy
or

I don't find MOST asian men attractive, too ugly, too feminine. I like handsome men and I like SOME asian men who are handsome and sexy
would be considered racist to alot of people here.

kinddeargirl

11-20-2004, 08:19 AM

Regardless of racial preference, pretty is pretty and ugly is ugly.

Yes, ugly is universal, but when apply it to a specific race in a statement that's racist.
Likewise with the feminine trait if apply to Asian men in statement is racist, feminine is also universal.

What are you trying to figure out from this poll anyhow? I dun get it.

I'll let you know why later, there's a huge debate over this at another forum.

Hi, I'm black hapa, I'm curious in everyone's opinions on this preference whether if it's racist or not. Thank you for your votes.

EXAMPLE:
"I don't find MOST black women attractive, too ugly, too dark. I like pretty women, and I like SOME black women who are pretty and feminine."

Since this is a predominantly Asian forum, I don't think many could relate to the latter statement.

I think if you changed around some words to make it more equivalent.

QUOTE:
I don't find MOST asian women attractive, too ugly, too childish.I like pretty women and I like SOME asian women who are pretty and sexy

or

QUOTE:
I don't find MOST asian men attractive, too ugly, too feminine. I like handsome men and I like SOME asian men who are handsome and sexy

would be considered racist to alot of people here.

I agree Cipherous, here are a few more examples:

QUOTE:
"I don't find MOST asian men attractive, too short, too feminine. I like hairy guys (as in more masculine), and I like SOME NE asian men who are handsome and sexy."

QUOTE:
"I don't find MOST black women attractive, too ugly, too unfeminine. I like pretty women, and I like SOME black women who are pretty and feminine."

BigLew

11-20-2004, 10:03 AM

Ok then what do you think about: "I find X women/men attractive because they are exotic looking"

hkRT

11-20-2004, 10:04 AM

Hi, I'm black hapa, I'm curious in everyone's opinions on this preference whether if it's racist or not. Thank you for your votes.

EXAMPLE:
"I don't find MOST black women attractive, too ugly, too dark. I like pretty women, and I like SOME black women who are pretty and feminine."

Sure it is racist.

To me, ugly = deceitful, conniving, mean-spirited, exceedingly selfish, acting all superior and above other people, prejudiced, mistreating other people, taking advantage of other people, stepping on other people to make themselves feel good, having a cold demeanor, being two-faced, etc.

I see too many people who supposedly are "good-looking" in appearance meeting most if not all of the above definitions of ugly.

asvenus

11-20-2004, 10:40 AM

KDG i think the questions you are asking are a tad bit broad...what exactly are you questioning? because i think its pretty obvious that if someone is braodly stating that Black women are all unfeminine and dark, therefore ugly..its a racist assumption

are you questioning the stereotype or myth of the 'black' woman as being unfeminine and in general the stereotype that 'black' people are ugly?? can you clarify?

as Nola pointed out when 'preference' is based and moulded by racist conceptions then IMO it becomes a problem, unfortunately this is apparent in our society hence why on ths site, it is rare to see a question like you've posed because most Asian men appear to be preoccupied with how they are viewed by caucasian women...the epitome of beauty and femininity (cue lots of sarcasm)... :rolleyes:

missmeow

11-20-2004, 11:37 AM

Napoleon Chynamite

11-20-2004, 01:01 PM

I do not think it is racist to have preferences for certain traits (ie light/dark eyes, skin tone, hair, whatever.) However, it becomes racist when you apply those traits to a certain race and make negative assumptions about them as in your example.

But, if you have a thing for blond hair and blue eyes, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to apply these traits to the white race (or at least the nordic ethnic groups haha), would it? :biggrin: Or what if you like slanted eyes, it wouldn't be racist then to attribute this trait to ASians.

hooligan

11-20-2004, 11:26 PM

The question is confusing, but I find all people attractive in one aspect or another.

kimpossible

11-21-2004, 12:22 PM

In reference to the title question, my direct answer is yes. In reference to what was asked in the first post, I guess you could call it racist but you can't force men (assuming you meant this in a strictly heterosexual context) to find something attractive.

But I also think limiting your dating pool to one race that is not your own in whole or part is also racist. I don't care too much if someone does it, but my opinion on the matter is the same.

I'll let you know why later, there's a huge debate over this at another forum.

Come join us. :smile:

QUOTE:
"I don't find MOST asian men attractive, too short, too feminine. I like hairy guys (as in more masculine), and I like SOME NE asian men who are handsome and sexy."

QUOTE:
"I don't find MOST black women attractive, too ugly, too unfeminine. I like pretty women, and I like SOME black women who are pretty and feminine."

Yes, but... no one normal finds ALL or even most of the females or males of an entire race attractive. Attributing traits to race is the problem. The stereotypes aren't always going to appear as crystal clear negative stereotypes. Sometimes they masquerade as positive-seeming stereotypes like, "Asian women are more feminine." Or, "Asian men are good providers."

PropellerheadCP

11-21-2004, 12:30 PM

TB4000

11-21-2004, 12:57 PM

I can't really see how, "I don't find MOST black women attractive, too ugly, too dark. I like pretty women, and I like SOME black women who are pretty and feminine." can be viewed as non-racist. It means that a black woman would need to be twice as attractive, for some guys to noticed them.

It's the same thing as how some Asian guys bitch about how they have to be twice as good looking than a white guy, to attract the same girls. Isn't that racist, as well?
It can definitely feel that way, as the only thing I could think of is that people of certain races have facial features that others don't see as attractive....whether it be a broad nose, pasty skin, large lips, small eyes, et cetera. Those are shallow reasons true enough, but a lot of people use that as their justification as to why they think such and such just isn't attractive.

Cipherous

11-21-2004, 01:59 PM

It's the same thing as how some Asian guys bitch about how they have to be twice as good looking than a white guy
Due to Bush's re-election, the Asian man stock has gone quite a bit. Add the rising value of White guys and factor in inflation, Asian guys now have to be 4 times good looking to get a decent girl nowadays.

nola

11-21-2004, 02:15 PM

PropellerheadCP

11-21-2004, 03:58 PM

I always found the sentiment "I find Asian women attractive" racist. Does that mean that all 1,000,000,000+ or whatever of us are attractive? And on what basis? It wouldn't be racist to consider dark hair, pale skin, almond-shape eyes, brown eyes attractive but if it might be racist if it is some generalization about the Asian female personality.

Hell ya, it's racist!
To my ears, it just sounds like they (the people who say, "I find Asian women attractive")find them attractive, because Asian all look the same to them. Well, the ones of certain shape, anyway. When they can't even tell the difference between a Vietnamese woman and a Korean woman, then it's racism gone overboard... and I've seen, as well as heard my fair share of that.

I personally also find the statement, "I think Asian guys are cute", to be just as insulting. Especially to a tattooed, weight lifting S.O.B. like me.

Due to Bush's re-election, the Asian man stock has gone quite a bit. Add the rising value of White guys and factor in inflation, Asian guys now have to be 4 times good looking to get a decent girl nowadays.

That's why I love living in Toronto, baby. :biggrin:

Napoleon Chynamite

11-21-2004, 04:17 PM

I always found the sentiment "I find Asian women attractive" racist. Does that mean that all 1,000,000,000+ or whatever of us are attractive? And on what basis? It wouldn't be racist to consider dark hair, pale skin, almond-shape eyes, brown eyes attractive but if it might be racist if it is some generalization about the Asian female personality.

Well I have no problem saying "I find Hispanic women attractive" while knowing at the same time that Hispanic women don't all look alike (but I do believe there are general physical features of similarity) and that obviously there are Hispanic women out there I wouldn't be attracted to. If you're gonna call me racist because of that, I guess I won't bother to change your opinion. I mean, so basically you're against any type of generalization period? I don't think anybody who says "I find Japanese girls pretty/beautiful" is implying that every single Japanese girl is hot stuff. If all it takes is a change from "I find Asian women attractive" to "I find many Asian women to be attractive" to change people's perception of me (from 'racist' to 'nonracist'), then I wouldn't see the big deal for the adjustment in the first place.

missmeow

11-21-2004, 04:46 PM

But, if you have a thing for blond hair and blue eyes, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to apply these traits to the white race (or at least the nordic ethnic groups haha), would it? :biggrin: Or what if you like slanted eyes, it wouldn't be racist then to attribute this trait to ASians.

Well, that's where it gets sticky. But my point was that there is a difference between saying, "I don't like dark skin" and "I don't like Black men because they all have dark skin." In the first case, your stating a preference. In the second case, your ascribing that trait to one race when in fact not all Black men are dark skinned and not only Black men can be dark skinned. You see what I am saying?

The problem with this type of banter is that we ALL have our own preferences. And we can ALL be called racist for having those preferences.

kimpossible

11-21-2004, 05:42 PM

I think there are some clear cut cases or areas where overt racism is involved and you can safely dissect it from personal taste. For instance, institutional racism and white beauty standards as a dominant cultural standard. That's probably the point that kinddeargirl wanted us to pick up on, that the statement she quoted made by some male, most likely Asian since she's posting this on an Asian board otherwise I have no idea what the hell it's doing here and why anything we talk about here would affect the conversation elsewhere, was based on beauty standards dominated by white traits. And by white traits I don't mean the inherent traits of all white people but of what whites elevate or model their ideal beauty standard as, which represents the majority of what we see in mainstream media.

We're each entitled to our preferences, even Asiaphiles or those non-Asians solely interested in Asians*, but that doesn't mean they are immune from other peoples' reaction to them if they are advertised. While I don't have to impede say a white (or whatever) guy or gal's mission to find mate using Asian as a criterion it also doesn't mean I don't have an opinion on it or can't explore the potential social dynamics around it as a racial member of the Asian American community.

*For the sake of argument here I'm not including Asian Asiaphiles because for the most part have an ethnic fetish but not a racial one. Another key difference is they often face similar stereotypes as their female counterparts based on race, if not gender, that non-Asians don't face like not being considered an American or speaking English, etc.

I personally also find the statement, "I think Asian guys are cute", to be just as insulting. Especially to a tattooed, weight lifting S.O.B. like me.

Yeah, it doesn't always have to be a statement made with a negative intent in order to be racist and/or demeaning.

nola

11-21-2004, 05:43 PM

It wouldn't be racist to consider dark hair, pale skin, almond-shape eyes, brown eyes attractive but if it might be racist if it is some generalization about the Asian female personality.I'll quote myself here to clarify that I said that preferring Asian physical characteristics isn't racist but generalizing about personality characteristics can be if it's about power issues, such as thinking Asian women aren't as assertive as other women.

Napoleon Chynamite

11-21-2004, 05:59 PM

I'll quote myself here to clarify that I said that preferring Asian physical characteristics isn't racist but generalizing about personality characteristics can be if it's about power issues, such as thinking Asian women aren't as assertive as other women.

What if I generalize all Asian women to have jet black hair, well-defined cheekbones, and smooth skin, when obviously this isn't the case? Yet this generalization has nothing to do with power issues because I'm not assuming that Asian women are submissive or slutty. Is this preference still racist even though it's based upon a broad generalization? Because whenever you say you prefer Asian physical characteristics or you prefer the characteristics of any specific group, I don't think generalization is avoidable. So even if the characteristics of jet black hair, monolid eyes, and yellowish skin are much more common among Asian women, would it be more desirable then to say "I like girls with black hair, small eyes, and yellow skin" rather than "I like Asian girls"?

nola

11-21-2004, 06:15 PM

Broad generalizations about physical traits are racist if they're derogatory or stereotypical like "black women have booty and Asian women have bodies like young boys" but simply preferring Asians because of their black hair, brown Asian eyes isn't racist. It was racist for me to say Asians have pale skin because many obviously do not.

kimpossible

11-21-2004, 06:33 PM

@ Hube> Sure, you can generalize like that but it's still a statement in a vacuum. There are many, many factors surrounding a statement like that that deserve to be unpacked and examined if they're shared. Perhaps not on an individual basis because it's really not anyone else'e business but if we're talking about a situation where it's used as a racist weapon so to speak, then it's not really a personal issue but an interpersonal one.

You can claim it has nothing to do with power issues and it might or might not. You can claim it's a simple preference based not at all on stereotypes, it might or might not. We could all claim a lot of things but oft times there's more to it and the defense of 'it's just a harmless preference' doesn't always ring true. Which is problematic with your generalization above, if we observed an Asian/non-Asian couple you could safely assume that they guy or girl in question is attracted to black hair, etc., because he/she found his/her S.O attractive but it might not be true that he or she is attracted to Asians in general. Could be that one person in particular because they had a common interest in underwater basket weaving.

Honestly, I don't think we'll ever agree on this so if you want to go a few rounds that's fine but I'm probably not going to say anything much different. Just forewarning because I have a movie tonight and want to go watch it in a bit. If I don't respond later it's because I'm eating cake and zoning out with a flick, not ignoring.

Napoleon Chynamite

11-21-2004, 06:54 PM

Honestly, I don't think we'll ever agree on this so if you want to go a few rounds that's fine but I'm probably not going to say anything much different. Just forewarning because I have a movie tonight and want to go watch it in a bit. If I don't respond later it's because I'm eating cake and zoning out with a flick, not ignoring.

Well actually I tend to agree with you to a certain extent, that generalizations, while often unavoidable in my point of view, never really accomplish anything beyond simply making it easier for us to categorize or mention things as a cohesive group for the sake of simplicity or ease of conversation and discussion, and that our generalizations or what we see as innocent preferences may be deeply rooted in reinforced ideology originally intended to be racist or to marginalize. I'm still trying to figure out where to draw the line myself.

tint

11-21-2004, 07:32 PM

Yes, ugly is universal, but when apply it to a specific race in a statement that's racist.
I don't see how ugly or beauty is universal. Even if every men and women agreed what is ugly still is not universal. What is beautiful or ugly is subjective.

Likewise with the feminine trait if apply to Asian men in statement is racist, feminine is also universal.
Society set arbitrary characteristics as feminine. Take the color pink. Why is that feminine? Because, we are conditioned to think that way. How about painting your finger nails? That's what women do - 'must be feminine.' How about coloring your hair or having long hair? There's some ambiguity to that, right? You have some men that do color their hairs or grow their hairs long, but it's no different to painting your finger nails.

I'll let you know why later, there's a huge debate over this at another forum.
I am curious what this forum is. At least share the details?

kinddeargirl

11-22-2004, 02:32 AM

Yes, ugly is universal, but when apply it to a specific race in a statement that's racist.
I don't see how ugly or beauty is universal. Even if every men and women agreed what is ugly still is not universal. What is beautiful or ugly is subjective.

What I meant by universal is that - there are ugly people in every race, there are ugly white people, ugly hispanic people, ugly black people, ugly asian people, etc., but when someone applies "ugly" exclusively to only black women in a statement, that is racist.

----------------------------------------------------------

There are 2 laws to consider here. One is "Freedom of Speech", and the other law is "Human Rights".

In normal circumstances, when a person says something offensive about another race, that person is considered racist. However, in dating that person is protected by the law of "Human Rights", the right to choose, the right to date anyone they want, the right to privacy so others cannot invade into your own private lives. Thus, eventhough the statement she made might be offensive and wrong, but she is protected by her legal rights ("Human Rights") to have relationships with only the ones chooses.

Racism is a Human Rights issue, and because there's no laws in dating, that's why it's so difficult to draw the line to determine racism.

We all know that there are laws to abide by in jobs and hiring practices.

Now, here's the kicker, what about a family's preference for not allowing a certain race into their family or into their homes. Does it make that family racists? It's their own preference, isn't it? Don't they have that right as well? Are there laws preventing any family from discriminating a certain race of people entering into their home and family? Again, the "Human Rights" and intrusion laws take into effect here as well.

There's no laws against "freedom of speech", but when someone says something in public to degrade another race, that's racist. For example, when Fuzzy Zeller made a comment about "fried chicken and collard greens" refering to blacks. That comment made an uproar and people called him a racist, Fuzzy of course apologized.

There are traits/stereotypes that are meant no harm, and then there are traits/stereotypes that are meant to degrade another race. "Ugly" is one of them, and "feminine (in men)" is another one.

So where do we draw the line in dating preferences? The line is, if you have a negative dating preference about a certain race, please DO keep it to yourself. Do not state/announce "dating preferences" publicly anywhere that is to degrade, to inflame, or to put down another race, as that would be considered as racist.

.

deez nuts

11-22-2004, 05:38 AM

it depends on the situation and the context.

in general, i don't think it's racist. it is probably teeter-tottering on being borderline offensive, at best.

i don't necessarily think that in every case that not dating someone based on race and perceived stereotypes of that particular race as racist either.

moJo

11-22-2004, 08:37 AM

... no one normal finds ALL or even most of the females or males of an entire race attractive. Attributing traits to race is the problem.
karma for you, kim. that's what i'd say, too. i just don't think racial generalizations can be made, especially when it comes to physical features (since KDG's question seems to focus on whether an entire race is 'ugly' or not).

okies, sorry kimpossible, i need to spread my karma elsewhere before i can karma you.
*pretend karma*

Chu Chi

11-22-2004, 10:15 PM

mrazntre

11-23-2004, 07:40 AM

Racism is mistreatment based on color.

It is a behavior.

In order for a person to practice racism they must say or do something that results in a person being mistreated on the basis of color.

Racism is a behavior.

CC

Thank you mr. Webster, but American Heritage Dictionary (via www.dictionary.com) gives as the first definition to the word 'racism' as:

rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm) n.
1) The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2) Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

So no, it's not JUST a behavior it is also the belief or superiority that causes the action.

nola

11-23-2004, 09:25 AM

I read something recently that tried to delineate between racism, prejudice and discrimination and it went something like:

Discrimination is an act.

Racism is an attitude.

Prejudice is a bias.

Maybe someone else read the pamphlet and can correct me.

Mr.Lum

11-23-2004, 03:49 PM

No it's not. Some women behave differently and some races of women behave in those ways more often. I don't like tall women. I'm not going to date a black or white woman (or anyother type of woman) who is more than a few centimeters or inches taller than me. I'm not going to get with a woman who speaks in ebonics or spanish or chinese all the time either. I can't stand that. I find it unattractive. Black women tend to be heavier than other women, but there are many who are not. White women tend to be hairier than other women also, taller as well. Many aren't though. If you have an observation "I don't find most black/white/asian/w/e women attractive but some are" I can see that statment. In your head that's true. But it's not racist, it's not malicious. It's just an observation. I could see not dating most women regaurdless of race. Most of them are not that attractive. Most people are not. I don't find most asian, white, black etc women attractive but there are some that are. Also, there are certain traits people find more attractive than others that happen to be more prevailant in some races more than others. If some one finds that attractive, they'll go for it. That's not racist. Calling it racist just sounds like somebody being overly politically correct. Just my opinion.

sandra

11-23-2004, 04:21 PM

based on race and racial stereotypes? necessarily yes.

if the question asked whether it were racist if based on race or stereotypes, my answer would be different.

Chu Chi

11-23-2004, 04:39 PM

Thank you mr. Webster, but American Heritage Dictionary (via www.dictionary.com) gives as the first definition to the word 'racism' as:

rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm) n.
1) The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2) Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

So no, it's not JUST a behavior it is also the belief or superiority that causes the action.

mrazntre, How do you prove what a person believes?

CC

sandra

11-23-2004, 04:46 PM

mrazntre, How do you prove what a person believes?

CC

you can't. you can only infer it, but even if a person told you what he believes, you cannot rely on that.

which is why racism is not a crime. it's not provable. racist acts, however, are.

draconisz

11-23-2004, 04:46 PM

Hello again Kinddeargirl.

Kasia, my apologies, I will attempt to make a statement that is pertinent to the topic.

As we have discussed previously, yes, I think the statement is racist because it is based up racial stereotyping. The gentleman talks not only about looks. . .but about behavior he thinks is indicative of darker skinned women.

But again, I just wanted to say hello. It's good to see you in other places around the net.

:smile:

Chu Chi

11-23-2004, 08:15 PM

you can't. you can only infer it, but even if a person told you what he believes, you cannot rely on that.

which is why racism is not a crime. it's not provable. racist acts, however, are.

Come on Kasia, I thought you were a lawyer?

Do I really need to tell YOU?

CC

mrazntre

11-23-2004, 08:28 PM

mrazntre, How do you prove what a person believes?

CC

The issue at hand is that you gave an incorrect definition of racism as only an act and not a belief.

I can prove that your definition of racism is wrong, therefore what you believe is wrong.

Proof in the pudding, happy?

Chu Chi

11-23-2004, 09:35 PM

The issue at hand is that you gave an incorrect definition of racism as only an act and not a belief.

I can prove that your definition of racism is wrong, therefore what you believe is wrong.

Proof in the pudding, happy?

mrazntre,
You didn't answer the question.

I will repeat it for you incase you didn't understand it.

How do you prove what a person believes?

CC

sandra

11-24-2004, 08:12 AM

Come on Kasia, I thought you were a lawyer?

Do I really need to tell YOU?

CC

wow. you talk to your mom with that mouth? please, do tell me.

mrazntre,
You didn't answer the question.

I will repeat it for you incase you didn't understand it.

How do you prove what a person believes?

CC

the question is completely irrelevant to what we're discussing. if you continue to post and respond without listening and considering what others have to say, i will consider that trolling. such behavior will soon warrant a ban.

mrazntre

11-24-2004, 08:26 AM

mrazntre,
You didn't answer the question.

I will repeat it for you incase you didn't understand it.

How do you prove what a person believes?

CC

You didn't confirm your ignorance to the word 'racism.'

Maybe you don't understand that acceptance of ones flaws will lead to a better understanding of the world around you.

btw: I did answer the question if you knew how to read and comprehend.

Bubba

11-24-2004, 11:36 AM

Is this the forum and thread Kinddeargirl is talking about:

http://asiams.net/Forum/index.php?showtopic=16 titled Interracial Dating?

I think this is must be what sparked it all, posted by an Asian female:

I really hate these negative stereotypes of AF/WM relationships. These pairings are so ubiquitous for the same reason that BM/WF are so common.......mutual attraction. I`ve read some forums and there`s a lot of really vicious, racist stereotyping by East Asians of both the white males and the Asian females.

I`m a Canadian born Chinese female and I personally don`t find most Asian men attractive. Too short, too effeminate and I like hairy guys. I married a white male and couldn`t be happier, but he`s really hurt by the Asian fetishist label our community places on him. I`ve heard this has become a polarizing issue amongst Asian Americans, but I wouldn`t worry about it too much. I also heard this was a polarizing issue amongst the white community 30 years ago when white women started dating black men, but white men eventually got over their feelings of betrayal and so will Asian men in time.

Geez, this thread is over 40 pages long. I'm kind of surprised, it seems like a clear cut case of racial stereotyping by her. Doesn't she say she hates racial stereotyping but in the very next paragraph use a really offensive one?

Chu Chi

11-24-2004, 04:30 PM

wow. you talk to your mom with that mouth? please, do tell me.

the question is completely irrelevant to what we're discussing. if you continue to post and respond without listening and considering what others have to say, i will consider that trolling. such behavior will soon warrant a ban.

The question of whether racism is a behavior or a belief is germane to both this discussion and the posted poll.

If you define racism as a belief, how do you prove a person is PRACTICING IT?

What do you say in court?

"well your honor, I think this person is a racist because I can read his mind..."

It is better to define racism as a behavior because at the end of the day all you have is what a person SAID and what they DID.

Racism is a behavior.

CC

nola

11-24-2004, 06:01 PM

racism is what a person says or does.

that forum posting is obnoxious and racist.

draconisz

11-24-2004, 06:08 PM

The question of whether racism is a behavior or a belief is germane to both this discussion and the posted poll.

If you define racism as a belief, how do you prove a person is PRACTICING IT?

What do you say in court?

"well your honor, I think this person is a racist because I can read his mind..."

It is better to define racism as a behavior because at the end of the day all you have is what a person SAID and what they DID.

Racism is a behavior.

CC

I had to post because I am bursting at the seams. Hopefully, this will be considered pertinent to the discussion. Chichi, you have tied a belief in racism to behavior. It does not work that way. Racism is the "norm" for this society. To be anti-racist is to act in a way that is against societal norms. We know this because this society was founded on "race". You can reference the American Anthropological Association for this. This is not something that is made up. Most Anthropologists, the people who study the differences between human groupings, have reached this conclusion.

http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm

Chu Chi

11-25-2004, 06:05 AM

asvenus

11-25-2004, 09:58 AM

i think many people are missing the point here...i dont think expressing a preference is inherently 'racist' BUT many of our ideas and particularly preferences ARE bourne out of what can be considered 'racist'....for example blonde hair and blue eyes being the epitome of beauty..now of course many find this to be genuinely attractive although im sure we are not going to sit here and pretend the origins of this are innocuous in all ways...we make so many assumptions and calculations, even semi consciously when viewing people on a daily babsis, it would be absurd to assume this doesnt dominate our minds when looking at potential mates or people we find attractive

the thread title statement does suggest racism for the simple fact it postulates that 'black' women all have similar looks/features/skin colour etc etc..and also that this image they share is in itself 'ugly'....

i have had people say to me that im beautiful for the no other fact than i am half asian, like it saved me from being some kind of montrous 'black' looking (whatever that is) woman (heaven help us all!!), and that to me is racist...

sandra

11-25-2004, 11:34 AM

This is just a misunderstanding, let me clarify my position.

Yes, racism is a belief that some people "believe in"; but if all they do is "think about it" without ACTING (saying and doing), what is the effect?

Actually, its pointless to argue the semantics because everyone responds to the logic of racism being a behavior even if they say its not.

If you stand up in court and say you are a racist, everyone will assume you are saying and doing things to practice it (behavior), even if they don't know what it is you are saying and doing.

So we really have no disagreement. Sure, "belief" is the precursor to "acting"; but Im suggesting people go directly to where they will have to go anyway when they are dealing with a racist.

Focus on their behavior- what they said, and what they did.

CC

i don't think we're arguing semantics. racism is not comparable to a crime. for example, it's true that i may have desires to commit physical assault all the time. in fact, i do. but so long as i don't act on it, i am not an assailant, and therefore i am still okay in the eyes of the law.

this is not, however, how racism works.

racism is not merely an act. it has to do with one's state of mind. if someone merely walks around with racist thoughts flowing through his mind all day, he is a racist. even if he takes the time to ensure that none of his thoughts affect his actions (although whether this is possible is arguable), he is still racist. therefore, the person who made the statement posted by kindergirl would be a racist if he kept that thought to himself and never voiced or acted upon it.

this is why racism, alone, is not punishable by law.

another analogy, violence. violence, alone is not punishable by law. i am, assuredly, a violent person. but i also rarely, rarely act on my violent thoughts. therefore, despite the fact that i am extremely violent, the law has no problem with that.

nola

11-25-2004, 12:10 PM

HEY JOIN THE CROWD! I want to commit physical assault and am extremely violent too! Say hello to EVILCHYCK...a bitter, angry hate child.

just kidding! not.

yellowperilgirl

11-25-2004, 01:03 PM

Not necessarily because you may base your preference on race solely on a cultural standpoint.

What are you trying to figure out from this poll anyhow? I dun get it.

Regardless of racial preference, pretty is pretty and ugly is ugly.

yeah but this is saying the majority of black women r ugly just like some (much of the world) thinks the majority of white women are pretty. thats a racist outlook. - YPG

Irezumi Kiss

11-25-2004, 01:15 PM

What makes it racist is that the statement is using the "ugliness" of Black women as a default standard and any "prettiness" therein would be an anomaly. That is truly fucked up.

This way ot thinking can be and is usually adhered to almost every woman of every race on the planet...since "beauty" is made out to be a commodity rather than an outlook...

kpih

11-25-2004, 03:12 PM

I am absolutely fascinated by this threat. Can't resist to join in. I am very glad that there are other young asian individuals who take issues as such seriously.

I agree with kasia. Racism is a state of mind. Action alone is a good indication, but racism operates in a much more subtle way. That is why racism is so destructive. There is OVERT racism, but most of the time it is the most powerful when it is COVERT. Preferences that are racially driven are typically covert forms of racism instead of blatant demonstrations.

Look at advertising. Recently Asian females are 'in' as objects of dominance and sexual conquer, while Asian males are all William Hung. While there is no 'racist act' in the commercials and printed advertising, the images and messages are very powerful and driven by racist ideologies. We see white faces as desirable and beautiful. While advertising agencies and the entertainment industry justify these images as being racially innocent to satisfy the market needs, these images and messages are there as a part of the larger context of racial ideologies. They are integral parts of the larger racist machine. Therefore are these advertisments and commercials racists in nature? Sure. Do not forget our choices and preferences in the current consumer economy-dominated world are largely affected, shaped or even dictated by advertising. All these subtle and not-so-subtle images from all forms of medium are greatly influencing our thoughts and actions. Can we neglect or dismiss the ideologies that shape our preferences?

The world is white. If we look at the standard of beauty out there, it is without question that whiteness is beautiful, and darkness is ugliness. Even the recent inclusion of black, brown and yellow females in commercials (mostly cosmetic commericals) are motivated by market interests and dominance instead of diversity and representation.

In the housing market, there are laws to protect minorities against overt racism, so covert excuses as in "perference" becomes the justification of housing segregation. Perference or racism ultimately depends on the context.

In conclusion, the context of contemporary Ameican society (and the world covered by the American media) on beauty, desirability, status, dating, courtship, and so forth cannot be divorced from the larger racist ideologies that permeates every facet of social life.

What can I say, awareness is a rare and precious thing...

nola

11-25-2004, 03:26 PM

I am absolutely fascinated by this threat. Can't resist to join in. I am very glad that there are other young asian individuals who take issues as such seriously. What can I say, awareness is a rare and precious thing...Yea, someone who's not saying we're too old or that they prefer teeny-bopper websites. There are enough of those immature websites already. Welcome to YW and hope you stay.

kpih

11-25-2004, 03:32 PM

Thanks. Will be here for a while...

Bubba

11-25-2004, 04:05 PM

kpih

11-25-2004, 04:24 PM

Funny how in that thread at the other forum the lady who made the racist stereotype denies that the media influences her at all. Personally, I don't see how the media cannot be a big influence.

Has anyone read it?

http://asiams.net/Forum/index.php?showtopic=16

Ignorance is bliss. It is easier to ignore or deny racism. She couldn't be happier. Good for her.

I see that a lot in my students. They do not understand their thoughts come from somewhere. That is exactly what the racist machine requires. Covert racism operates as 'preferences' and the pretense of free will. As such racism is justified. At some point the attempt to educate becomes pointless. Still, some one has to try...

Choice is not simply a discrete episode. It is an accumulation of experiences.

Meanwhile I shall stay 'effeminate' I suppose... (sarcasm supersized)

Bubba

11-25-2004, 08:42 PM

Any ideas or strategies to address it? People seem to have tried everything in that thread.

nola

11-25-2004, 09:39 PM

We do not discuss other forums here. Join and debate them on that forum.

Bubba

11-25-2004, 10:59 PM

We do not discuss other forums here. Join and debate them on that forum.
Oops my bad. Was only curious.

nonamerasian

11-26-2004, 11:29 AM

the thread title statement does suggest racism for the simple fact it postulates that 'black' women all have similar looks/features/skin colour etc etc..and also that this image they share is in itself 'ugly'.

Even if it was a positive statement, I'd see it in the same way.

Racist.

But it's a racism that I don't care about either way.

It's just someone stating his/her personal preferences.

asvenus

11-26-2004, 02:39 PM

Even if it was a positive statement, I'd see it in the same way.

Racist.

But it's a racism that I don't care about either way.

It's just someone stating his/her personal preferences.

i know what you mean..but i resent when people assume there are essentialist images of black women because there arent, they are diverse with MANY variations and there is so much beauty in all of them but that is rarely looked at....i agree with kiph and think it goes further than simply personal preference' and it is actually racist

Yeahman

11-26-2004, 05:22 PM

Is "I find Asian women GENERALLY more attractive than black women" racist?

kpih

11-26-2004, 06:19 PM

Context defines the meaning of the statement.

If I say, "I prefer Classical Music to Rap." That statement alone has nothing wrong with it. It is just a matter of preference. However, if the statement goes, "I prefer Classical Music to Rap, because I don't like Black people", then the preference is loaded with racist ideals.

On the same token, the statement "I find Asian women GENERALLY more attractive than black women" has nothing wrong with it. It is a statment on what is attractive to you, not a comment on the entire group. The statement comes from personal preference and shows that you are aware of it, and not prejudice towards the entire group. If the statement goes, "I find Asian women GENERALLY more attractive than black women, because all black women are ugly", then the undertone is racist.

You are right, sometimes racism operates with such subtleties, people either are not aware of the racist undertones or they try to deny it...

Yeahman

11-26-2004, 06:34 PM

Bubba

11-26-2004, 06:44 PM

But doesn't "I find Asian women GENERALLY more attractive than black women" imply "I find black women GENERALLY uglier than Asian women"?
As long as it's 1. clear that I say "generally" and not "all" and... 2. clear that I say "I find" instead of a statement of fact, it's not racist?
I think I agree with ye110man here. First, the statement is inherently racist simply because discriminations are based on race. Second, there's no way a person could have met all black or Asian women to make such a comparison based solely on race. And lastly it does imply one group is uglier than another.

Like if that poster wrote, "I find white men generally more masculine than Asian men." it sure seems like a put down.

kpih

11-26-2004, 06:49 PM

Of course there exists no golden rule in identifying racism. Also, not finding some people attractive does not mean they are automatically ugly. They could be beautiful people, and I am just not attracted to them. The 'I' is in question, not 'them'. Again, it is the context that reflects the intentions of the statement and the individual.

Chu Chi

11-26-2004, 08:51 PM

Of course there exists no golden rule in identifying racism. .

Even a dog can tell when it is being mistreated.

Racism is mistreatment based on color.

It is a behavior.

In order for a person to practice racism they must say or do something that results in a person being mistreated on the basis of color.

When Chai Vang walks into that court room, his defense will not be "I thought they believed in racism so I shot them".

The judge and the jury will be interested in two things: what was said and what was done i.e. behavior.

If it turns out that these White hunters told Chia Vang: "the only thing a filthy gook like you deserves is a silver bullet in your yellow skull..." and then took a shot at him to scare him...

Vang will have a valid defense.

Even if they were all KKK members, it all comes down to what they said and what they did in their interaction with him- at that time.

This was a disturbing tragic event.

We don't know who started it.

But we know who finished it.

CC

kpih

11-26-2004, 09:32 PM

Even a dog can tell when it is being mistreated.

Racism is mistreatment based on color.

CC

I was strictly referring to the previous question: "I find Asian women GENERALLY more attractive than black women."

I think this particular discussion was trying to find the line between individual preferrence and racism in defining beauty and dating, not the Vang case.

Besides, I think earlier couple of comments mentioned racist mindset and action?

mrazntre

11-26-2004, 10:29 PM

The most intriguing thing that I find about dogs is that they bark and when they're pissing on trees, they're just pissing on bark. So technically they're pissing into their own mouths.

Sounds familiar?

Chu Chi

11-27-2004, 07:33 AM

I agree.

Too, I think what is scary is when you have individuals who mistreat or harrass people based on color, under the belief that because they don't use an epithet that they are not racist.

yes and your strategy must account for this because its the way most racism is practiced today. Sure, there are the "David Dukes" and the "Tom Metzgers" out there, but for the most part you are not going to have a person at work tell you they are a racist.

If you are standing at the water fountain and a coworker says:

"I don't find MOST black women attractive, too ugly, too dark. I like pretty women, and I like SOME black women who are pretty and feminine

How do you know if the person is a racist?

If a Black guy says it is he a racist?

Even if a White guy says it you are still on shaky ground because he can always run to his Black friend and say "Jamal, we play basketball together, am I a racist?"

Or the big trump card: "don't be silly...my wife is Black"

The most you can do is record the statement and watch to see if they deny Black women promotions, make them do more work for less pay...

If they are a racist, their behavior will eventually betray them. This means you must watch them.

I know it seems like alot of work, but its really all you have.

These people are very skilled with words. I had one White man tell me he was a racist but when I asked him how he practiced racism he said: "oh, I believe in my European heritage".

See how his definition protects him by defining racism as a belief?

He gave me nothing to work with.

So now I just watch him.

I watch what he says and what he does.

CC

RangerX

11-27-2004, 11:08 AM

yeah but this is saying the majority of black women r ugly just like some (much of the world) thinks the majority of white women are pretty. thats a racist outlook. - YPG

You could be correct YPG, but

I suspect that is the result of the System of Racism White Supremacy - WorldWide.

White over Non-White.

-RangerX
RWSWJ

sandra

11-27-2004, 01:29 PM

Even a dog can tell when it is being mistreated.

Racism is mistreatment based on color.

It is a behavior.

In order for a person to practice racism they must say or do something that results in a person being mistreated on the basis of color.

When Chai Vang walks into that court room, his defense will not be "I thought they believed in racism so I shot them".

The judge and the jury will be interested in two things: what was said and what was done i.e. behavior.

racism is not a legal concept. you don't have to be able to prove it in a court of law for it to exist. otherwise, shit, there would be little racism in this world.

racism today, as opposed to 50 years ago, is a lot more suppressed and covert AND less provable in court. would i say there is less racism? no. would you by your own definition? yes. that's like shooting ourselves in the foot.

and yes, i agree with mrazntre, the dogs are pissing in their own mouths. make them stop.

Yeahman

11-27-2004, 10:20 PM

hooligan

11-27-2004, 10:24 PM

Is, "I find women more attractive than men", sexist?
Or, "I find 20 year olds more attractive than 60 year olds", ageist?
OR, "I find skinny people more attractive than fat people", lookist?

OR, "I prefer light skin or small noses or big lips or big breasts or blonde hair."

Isn't race a physical characteristic just like anything else? It's not saying anything about how I would treat them, only that I personally find one physically characteristic more appealing than other.
Well, I don't think race is a physical characteristic, it's more of a social construct or a stereotype. All of your suggestions are valid, but since we're on a race-based site, the OP was asking if dating based on race and racial stereotypes racist?

mndeg

11-28-2004, 12:49 AM

heh, 1337 replies

yeah and "prefering" asian women is completly different than "prefering blonde hair" or whatever
white people (men) always try to use that analogy
very sad asiaphiles

Chu Chi

11-28-2004, 08:26 AM

Well, I don't think race is a physical characteristic, it's more of a social construct or a stereotype.

Yeah, and the way you tell thats true is to detect the different treatment a non white person gets when they do the same thing a White person does.

White males routinely leave classified material all over the place but when they get caught, "its just an accident".

But if Wen Ho Lee is missing one small thing, he's automatically a spy.

Black women used to get fired for wearing their hair to work in African braid style, but when the White girl comes back from vacation in Jamaica, all you hear is "oh how beautiful, she looks like Bo Derek..."

Tommy Dorsey is the king of jazz

Elvis is the king of rock and roll

David Caridine is the king of kung foo

M&M is the king of hip hop

Brad Pitt is "the mexican"

Tom Criuse is "the last samuri"

Its really not about "characteristics"; its about power,control and the ability to sell you that which you already have.

CC

asvenus

11-28-2004, 09:11 AM

you go girl!! heehee...

Yeahman

11-28-2004, 09:25 AM

yeah and "prefering" asian women is completly different than "prefering blonde hair" or whatever
white people (men) always try to use that analogy
very sad asiaphiles
And the difference is?

stunninglyAsian

11-29-2004, 05:18 AM

And the difference is?

I think he's saying that when you say you prefer Asian girls, you buy into the stereotype over just the physical features of Asians, whereas if you say I like blondes, that's just liking the physical features.

BUT if I were to say I prefer blondes on this board, people would probably assume that I am a sell-out or something because, let's face it, that would mean I would be dating only white girls. I don't think anybody who likes blondes would date an Asian girl with blonde hair.

Irezumi Kiss

11-29-2004, 10:32 AM

I think he's saying that when you say you prefer Asian girls, you buy into the stereotype over just the physical features of Asians, whereas if you say I like blondes, that's just liking the physical features.

BUT if I were to say I prefer blondes on this board, people would probably assume that I am a sell-out or something because, let's face it, that would mean I would be dating only white girls. I don't think anybody who likes blondes would date an Asian girl with blonde hair.
Now we see the power of just the descriptive "word" with all the positives or negatives implied, even when it's simply an adjective. Everyone can have blonde hair, but when you say the word, you're (possibly) thinking Marilyn Monroe instead of latter-day Sisqo.

Power of popular imagery shapes one's thoughts as well, if one isn't more earthly or well-rounded. If someone non-Black says they're "dating a Black guy/girl" to someone who hasn't had more than a peripheral relationship with Black people, who do you think they might visualize? Denzel Washington vs. Chris Rock? Beyoncé vs. Mo'Nique?

There might be no realistic way of getting around the objective power of words of physical and racial description. Depending on the individual, one might be more inclined to image the person in the negative, especially if they believe certain characteristics of certain races are "bad" or "ugly."

Funny thing is that sometimes, what one considers "ugly" or "unattractive" about someone is or can be the most attractive point about them. Or maybe I should say "interesting," which can be a segue into attraction by itself.

For example, take the nose on Spanish actress Rossy De Palma.

http://img.studenti.it/images/monitor/cinema/cine_visioni/donne_almodovar/rossy1_big.jpg

It's like Wicked Witch of the West time on that nose, but somehow she makes it work and she's all the more beautiful for it...well, she thinks so, and so do I... :biggrin:

stunninglyAsian

11-29-2004, 08:15 PM

Napoleon Chynamite

11-29-2004, 08:48 PM

What about the flip side? If I say I only date Asian women does that mean I'm racist? I could be stereotyping by thinking that Asian women will understand what it means to be an Asian growing up in America with immigrant parents, etc so there will be that special bond between us that only two Asian Americans can have.

Well, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who would suggest that the belief that other Koreans (you're Korean right?) or Korean women would be in a better position to understand Korean culture or the experience(s) tied with either growing up or living in the U.S. as a Korean is a harmful stereotype or sweeping groundless generalization.

"You know, it would scare the shit out of al-Qaeda if suddenly a bunch of black ninjas rappelled out of helicopters into the middle of their camp." -Bill Clinton

He really said this? haha

stunninglyAsian

11-29-2004, 09:07 PM

Well, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who would suggest that the belief that other Koreans (you're Korean right?) or Korean women would be in a better position to understand Korean culture or the experience(s) tied with either growing up or living in the U.S. as a Korean is a harmful stereotype or sweeping groundless generalization.

But you understand my point, right?
If it's so destructive and harmful to assume that people that look different than you act a certain way, they why isn't it harmful to assume that people that look like you act a certain way?

And yes, that is what Clinton said, it's in the 9/11 commission report :)

Napoleon Chynamite

11-29-2004, 09:12 PM

But you understand my point, right?
If it's so destructive and harmful to assume that people that look different than you act a certain way, they why isn't it harmful to assume that people that look like you act a certain way?

Because the people who look like you in question (in your case Koreans, or on a broader scale, Asians...if you are willing to take cultural similarities between different Asian nationalities into consideration) come from a culture that you at least are partially familiar with, which makes the assumption that most Koreans would share a few common traits here and there and be more understanding of where you stand to be more safe and credible, in my opinion. This is only true if you can accept the power and incredible significance of cultural influence and upbringing, of course.

It's more justified for me coming from parents who have instilled in me some type of Chinese upbringing to assume that other Chinese people would be more understanding or act in ways engrained due to cultural elements, as opposed to, on the other hand, assuming that other people from other cultures or backgrounds that I am unfamiliar with would act in certain ways because frankly I would have little to no first-hand experience with their lifestyles or cultural perspective.

The whole point is that when white people make assumptions about how Asians act, deeply-rooted imperialistic and racist ideology and overtones aside, their assumptions are on shaky ground in the first place because they weren't raised by Asian parents or in an Asian community or nation (er...or at least they probably weren't, because I realize there are cases where white kids grow up with Asian parents or in an Asian setting).

draconisz

11-30-2004, 10:19 AM

This is just a misunderstanding, let me clarify my position.

Yes, racism is a belief that some people "believe in"; but if all they do is "think about it" without ACTING (saying and doing), what is the effect?

Actually, its pointless to argue the semantics because everyone responds to the logic of racism being a behavior even if they say its not.

If you stand up in court and say you are a racist, everyone will assume you are saying and doing things to practice it (behavior), even if they don't know what it is you are saying and doing.

So we really have no disagreement. Sure, "belief" is the precursor to "acting"; but Im suggesting people go directly to where they will have to go anyway when they are dealing with a racist.

Focus on their behavior- what they said, and what they did.

CC

I think we do have a little disagreement. Before race theory, people were just Zulu, Spanish, English, Cherokee, Apache, Xhosa, Dogon, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, or whatever they would call themselves. They weren't members of a race. Now, you might get other stories, but the truth of the matter is that the concept came from Europe. Europeans named themselves "White". Then they set about categorizing everyone else. This was supposedly backed by science and was taught as fact. Human Beings had 3 major groupings, Mongoloid, Caucasoid, and Negroid.

I am not talking about a trial where you look for evidence of racism. I am talking about understanding a belief system and it's effect upon the institutions that govern a given society. Race, the concept, was ingrained into the fabric of American society and the stereotypes assigned to each race were accepted as truth.

A nice person totally ignorant of the prospect of being an anti-racist can come up to you and be as racist as the day is long.

Not by insulting you or threatening you. But just by accepting what was taught as the norm in this society for centuries.

Before I "learned", I could have regularly insulted American Indians by recounting what I thought was the origin of Thanksgiving. I had internalized beliefs that were totally racist.

Chu Chi

11-30-2004, 06:34 PM

A nice person totally ignorant of the prospect of being an anti-racist can come up to you and be as racist as the day is long.

Not by insulting you or threatening you. But just by accepting what was taught as the norm in this society for centuries.

Before I "learned", I could have regularly insulted American Indians by recounting what I thought was the origin of Thanksgiving. I had internalized beliefs that were totally racist.

Exactly, SAYING and or DOING.

You had to say or do something to practice racism.

We are in agreement.

CC

nola

12-01-2004, 08:48 AM

Napoleon Chynamite

12-01-2004, 12:02 PM

One can have racist attitudes too which don't involve speech or action. I know someone who is very good to people of color and doesn't say anything bad about them but deep down he's still a little prejudiced.

Kinda like all of us? I don't believe a person who doesn't harbor any type of inner prejudice (yes, racial prejudice) exists.

Chu Chi

12-01-2004, 05:15 PM

One can have racist attitudes too which don't involve speech or action. I know someone who is very good to people of color and doesn't say anything bad about them but deep down he's still a little prejudiced.

"but deep down he's still a little prejudiced."

How do you know that?

CC

nola

12-01-2004, 05:21 PM

It came out when he was angry. When he was cut off by black drivers he used a racial slur, he said an extremely cheap friend was cheaper than a Jew, etc. He never said anything to their faces.

nola

12-01-2004, 06:49 PM

oh yeah, we're all a little prejudiced.

Chu Chi

12-02-2004, 05:51 AM

It came out when he was angry. When he was cut off by black drivers he used a racial slur, he said an extremely cheap friend was cheaper than a Jew, etc. He never said anything to their faces.

So he SAID something.

Thats what I thought.

Now the next question is: Was the person who said it a Black person?

CC

nola

12-02-2004, 06:58 AM

You can have racist attitudes and not say anything and still be racist. Why doesn't that register with you? I harbor some prejudices but never act on them or say anything. Like someone alluded to earlier we are all racist. Most people harbor at least some prejudices and racist attitudes.

CC, do you talk like this in real life? Are you this demanding in real life?

Chu Chi

12-02-2004, 03:32 PM

You can have racist attitudes and not say anything and still be racist.

Ok, so a person can be a racist without practicing racism? hmmm...let me chew on that.

Why doesn't that register with you?

It does, Im just trying to find the utility in it.

I harbor some prejudices but never act on them or say anything.

Ok, are you a racist?

Like someone alluded to earlier we are all racist.

Who said that?

Most people harbor at least some prejudices and racist attitudes.

Give me an example of a "racist attitude"

CC, do you talk like this in real life?
Are you this demanding in real life?

Im not trying to annoy or mistreat anyone. Racism is a serious charge. Jobs, families, houses, marriages...are on the line. FCOL, people get shot because of racism! ; if it gets to the IG, he's going to show up and start "moving furniture" and everybody will be pissed!

Therefore, I have to focus on the mechanics and dynamics of racism; what was said and what was done, who said it and who did it.

Its just my own personal ass covering mechanism because at the end of the day what I say and what I do must equal the language of the document I swore to serve and uphold.

I don't want any meetings with the "bigheads" because its always something bad.

CC

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

nola

12-02-2004, 04:37 PM

Kinda like all of us? I don't believe a person who doesn't harbor any type of inner prejudice (yes, racial prejudice) exists.hube suggested we all harbor prejudices and racism and i agree. we are all racist in that we have preconceived notions of different races. we are all prejudiced about different groups of people such as gays, women, fat people, etc. you are demanding in most of your posts.

an example of prejudiced thinking: despite claims of low metabolism and food allergies i tend to think obese people they are lazy, don't exercise enough and love to eat.

Chu Chi

12-03-2004, 06:17 AM

hube suggested we all harbor prejudices and racism and i agree. we are all racist in that we have preconceived notions of different races. we are all prejudiced about different groups of people such as gays, women, fat people, etc. you are demanding in most of your posts.

"harboring prejudices"..."preconceived notions" -- they sound good but what is the mistreatment? What was said and or done that resulted in a person being mistreated on the basis of color?

Racism is a word in a class by itself. I "discriminate" against lima beans, I "pre-judge" snakes; when I see one I assume its poisonous. But I do not say and or do things to mistreat people on the basis of color.

Look at it this way; if the bigheads get served, they automatically assume I didn't do my job. Human resource managers, diversity directors, inspector generals...are put in place to make sure the charge of racism never gets "out of house" because if it does the bigheads are the ones who must pay.

Pay for what?

Pay for what was said and or done that resulted in a person being mistreated on the basis of color. "harboring prejudices" lacks utility for me.

an example of prejudiced thinking: despite claims of low metabolism and food allergies i tend to think obese people they are lazy, don't exercise enough and love to eat.

Ok, you may "think" that, but is that practicing racism?

CC

Bubba

12-03-2004, 08:02 AM

What about simply refusing to date Asian men because you prefer white men for whatever prejudiced reasons? You're not mistreating anyone since no one says you have to say yes to date from an Asian man nor are you actively doing anything to someone else.

But isn't this racism too?

nola

12-03-2004, 10:50 AM

"harboring prejudices" lacks utility for me. [I]an example of prejudiced thinking: despite claims of low metabolism and food allergies i tend to think obese people they are lazy, don't exercise enough and love to eat.Ok, you may "think" that, but is that practicing racism?there doesn't have to be action or speech for racism to have utility. just having the thought inside your head leads to action and speech and that's half the problem, is it not? like thought and action, thought precedes, motivates and shapes action.

What about simply refusing to date Asian men because you prefer white men for whatever prejudiced reasons? You're not mistreating anyone since no one says you have to say yes to date from an Asian man nor are you actively doing anything to someone else.

But isn't this racism too?yes, that's sexual racism.

achtungbaby

12-03-2004, 03:01 PM

Human resource managers, diversity directors, inspector generals...are put in place to make sure the charge of racism never gets "out of house" because if it does the bigheads are the ones who must pay.
http://yellowworld.org/civil_rights/280.html

Chu Chi

12-03-2004, 09:10 PM

Did anyone read this part:

"To ensure compliance with the provisions of the Consent Decree, the company will name a Vice President for Diversity, and provide diversity training for all employees with hiring authority. A new internal complaint procedure will provide employees with a mechanism to report any problems they face"

You mean they didn't already have that stuff in place?

Wow!

CC

What about simply refusing to date Asian men because you prefer white men for whatever prejudiced reasons? You're not mistreating anyone since no one says you have to say yes to date from an Asian man nor are you actively doing anything to someone else.

But isn't this racism too?

No.

Females know who they wish to have sexual intercourse with.

Failure of a female to choose to have sex with a male does not qualify as mistreatment.

Besides, the best female for a male to have sex with is the one who wants to have sex with him.

The experience is very different.

Once you have "that kind of sex", you will not be interested in the "other kind".

CC

there doesn't have to be action or speech for racism to have utility. just having the thought inside your head leads to action and speech .

BINGO!

Thought...it all starts with a thought.

You are dead on Nola; thought + speech+ action = BEHAVIOR

But it all starts with a thought.

Now, the utility of countering racist thought is dubious for me.

Why?

Because I don't care why people practice racism.

Why?

Because whatever reason they give will not be good enough for me.

If people are being mistreated for any reason, I am duty bound to prevent it.

Why?

Because that is my purpose.

I can't stop people from thinking about mistreating other people. But when it comes to speech and/or action; that can be dealt with.

CC

nola

12-03-2004, 09:58 PM

If one prefers a white man over an asian man for prejudiced reasons as bubba stated it's racism. If a woman prefers sleeping with an asian or white man for no reason other than they prefer black hair and brown eyes it's not racism.

Thought...it all starts with a thought.

You are dead on Nola; thought + speech+ action = BEHAVIOR

But it all starts with a thought.

Now, the utility of countering racist thought is dubious for me.

Why?

Because I don't care why people practice racism.

Why?

Because whatever reason they give will not be good enough for me.

If people are being mistreated for any reason, I am duty bound to prevent it.so we've ascertained that racist thought behind racist speech and action is as important a component of racism as racist speech and action. if the speech and action parts exist so you can prevent them racist thoughts exist because you can prevent them too. for example you can promote images of asians to counter asian stereotypes so that people have a diverse image of asians so that their speech and actions are not racist. like the discontinuation of the old image of aunt jemima on syrup bottles and sambo's restaurants due to offensive stereotypes promoted a more realistic image of blacks you can sign the petition to boycott the t-shirts that stereotype asians as buck-toothed and buddha-like so that people have more realistic images and thoughts about asians. when people had thoughts of blacks as aunt jemimas and sambos these thoughts lead to racist action and discrimination. likewise changing people's thoughts about asians can improve their actions and stop discrimination. when people stop thinking of us with rickshaws, pointed hats, slanty eyes and buck teeth (and they still do because of images on t-shirts) they'll treat us like everyday folks and not make racial slurs and discriminate in the workplace.

Bubba

12-04-2004, 09:07 PM

I think a failure to act based on race (i.e. not dating someone) is as racist as any act based on race. So it's not just actions but inactions that can be racism.

nola

12-04-2004, 09:43 PM

Because that is my purpose. I can't stop people from thinking about mistreating other people. But when it comes to speech and/or action; that can be dealt with. CChow does one stop racist speech and action? for example, how can we stop the current prejudice against hmongs due to the wisconsin incident (wisconsin whites are likening hmongs to vang according to my local paper)? if they read the hmong voices that said that vang does not represent them their image of hmong changes which leads to less racist speech and actions against hmong.

Chu Chi

12-05-2004, 08:37 AM

how does one stop racist speech and action? for example, how can we stop the current prejudice against hmongs due to the wisconsin incident (wisconsin whites are likening hmongs to vang according to my local paper)?

You stop racism the same way you stop terrorism.

You employ the corresponding counter measures.

In Iraq, Americans and Iraqis are conducting "joint patrols". They are teaching each other techniques and strategies to counter the terrorist threat.

I suggest a similar response to the event in Wisconsin.

Joint "hunting clubs" where hunting stories, tactics and knowledge can be exchanged to the benefit of all.

Organizations such as these should be created by some of the many American pilots who owe their lives to the Hmong people who rescued them after being shot down over south east Asia, Cambodia and Laos.

This is my suggestion.

CC

nola

12-05-2004, 08:55 AM

Okay.

achtungbaby

12-06-2004, 01:46 AM

This is my suggestion.
Actually this isn't such a far fetched idea, at least not to me (though I may be crazy). One of the first things I learned about debate was the necessity of knowing the other side. It's far too easy to simply co-mingle with folks who are going to agree with everything you say and essentially recycle that knowledge.

draconisz

12-06-2004, 11:17 AM

Exactly, SAYING and or DOING.

You had to say or do something to practice racism.

We are in agreement.

CC

Perhaps, but I just wanted to put that "normal" quality to racism. To many racists, their beliefs seem quite "normal" and unoffensive.

etcj

12-07-2004, 01:07 AM

Perhaps, but I just wanted to put that "normal" quality to racism. To many racists, their beliefs seem quite "normal" and unoffensive.
I'd hate to throw my bias in (well, actually...), but when we talk about black people and racism, it's certainly much easier to distinguish something as being racist. Of course, the lines seem to be blurred when we talk about racial preferences and Asians and Pacific Islanders. For example, if you're Blasian and you know guys like you based on your Asian side more, then you probably might not be too pissed. On the flip side, you might be ultro-pissed at the guys who only see your black side...and they go, "Ahemm, I don't date black chicks". I'm sure a hapa person on here could probably elaborate a lot better than me.

Of course, we always seem to focus on the undesired ones as the victims of racial preferences. However, we should not ignore the folks who are exocitized or fetishized by racial preferences...they end up being stereotyped...usually as specific pets or play things for the aggressors. Ahemm, I think the Asian and Pacific Islander folks on here would know what I mean...both the guys and gals. So, I definitely agree with draconisz that they clearly don't see the harm that they're doing, because they only see the "love" side of it and not the exclusion that they're promoting as a result of their preference. In my opinion, we're probably better off without them, but we're got to strive for strking down those biases, heh..

Irezumi Kiss

12-07-2004, 04:08 PM

Of course, we always seem to focus on the undesired ones as the victims of racial preferences. However, we should not ignore the folks who are exocitized or fetishized by racial preferences...they end up being stereotyped...usually as specific pets or play things for the aggressors.
True.

There are also the ones who actually encourage and thrive off of that on purpose as a "kink." In such a case, though, the aggressor isn't the objective aggressor but just playing a part for the "submissive's" pleasure.

If it sounds like a mental S&M thing, that's pretty much what it might be. The things that are different about us racially/physically can be used for the pleasure of image. From the outside looking in, it definitely feels and looks like someone's being exoticized and fetishized in a negative, unproductive way. But if those people actually accept that and believe in that and use it for their own self-satisfaction, how can you stop it or even say that it's wrong for them when it's wrong for you?

Just trying to throw another spin out there. Only because beauty and desire is often defined by those who are lucky enough to be "beautiful" and those who don't feel like they are "desirable" or "accepted" might or will do whatever's necessary to make them feel desirable and accepted. Usually this means accentuating those very racial/physical qualities made easy for stereotyping.

asvenus

12-08-2004, 06:41 AM

well speaking as a 'hapa'...i wouldnt really agree as if you read alot of the posts in the hapa forum you would see that far from languishing in the exotic (B.S) roles we are often assigned, we actively discourage any fool who tries to take it there, and many of us have vocied our preference for someone who would be openly hateful of our mix rather than some revolting sycophant harbouring some tired old stereotypic fantasy about a mixed (Asian) person.

also being someone who is racially defined as Black (see the one drop rule), people who look like me are often defined as 'beautiful' for nothing more than the texture of our hair and our shade of skin..there may be some who encourage and enjoy this but i know of none, including myself...so i would argue that 'racial' preference whether you are 'benefitting' from it or not is still very offensive and racist.

Azn Retribution

12-23-2004, 04:07 AM

I like girls who are hot(inside and out)
What's the term for discriminating against fugly girls?
being a aesthetist?

I guess I discriminate ignorantly too.

Mavurik

12-24-2004, 02:03 PM

I don't know, personally I think it comes from physical looks and only that. Recently I was at a party talking to a girl who happened to be Chinese and she kept making comments about how she's just a little asian girl to things I would say and it just made me look at her like O_o. I'm not interested or attracted to girls because of some stereotype. For me, it's either physical attraction or attraction based on personality (or a combination). I'll date an asian girl, or a black or a white girl and it will all be for different reasons. Not because I think asian girls are this way, or black girls are this way. You know? I guess its personal. I don't think dating based on race and racial stereotypes is exactly racist in the strongest sense of the word, but I would say it's ignorant and unfair to prejudge something about someone solely based on race and stereotypes.

I've honestly never have met a guy who likes girls because they are "exotic". Do people actually say these things anymore? I've never once in my life heard somebody say they want an exotic asian girl. I've never heard those words come out of somebody's mouth. I think that's kind of outdated and only an idiot would be caught saying something like that but I guess it still happens.

deez nuts

12-25-2004, 03:25 PM

Recently I was at a party talking to a girl who happened to be Chinese and she kept making comments about how she's just a little asian girl to things I would say and it just made me look at her like O_o..

tee-hee ^__^

Chester

12-29-2004, 09:50 PM

tee-hee ^__^ Kekekekeke...

kimpossible

12-30-2004, 09:32 AM

I've honestly never have met a guy who likes girls because they are "exotic". Do people actually say these things anymore? I've never once in my life heard somebody say they want an exotic asian girl. I've never heard those words come out of somebody's mouth. I think that's kind of outdated and only an idiot would be caught saying something like that but I guess it still happens.

Well, most of us have met plenty of guys - no, excuse me - too many fucking weirdos that rabidly embrace exotic images of Asian women. You're fixating on the word 'exotic' itself but it takes many forms that don't require the actual word exotic. China doll, docile, more feminine, Asian women know how to take care of a man, I can't help liking silky black hair and almond eyes on women who just happen to be Asian, etc.

Many times it's passive-aggressive as well. You get some real pieces of work dating or married to an Asian woman that log onto Asian American websites trolling. They usually get really defensive about their IR relationship past, present or potential and use every thing they either know or think they know about Asia or Asians to justify their presence here.

The direction of conversation is usually one way; they try to lecture out towards us. 99% of the time they tend to be males but I think the female Asiaphile population is catching up. The IR dating disparity tends to diminish the outcry against female Asiaphiles, however.

nola

12-30-2004, 09:48 AM

Hey, well said, kim.

Balthus Dire

01-04-2005, 12:03 AM

moJo

01-04-2005, 07:28 AM

People like just what they like and if they like a particular race, I think it is a whole lot better than them disliking/hating someone of a particular race. If someone likes a person of a certain race, a race different from that of their own, that should be the end of the discussion. There shouldn't be any follow-up Q's like "why do you like_____s?" "does your like for ______s mean you dislike people of your own race?" etc., it's WEAK.
well the question is, do you like that person and they just happen to be race X, or do you have a preference for race X?

kimpossible

01-04-2005, 09:25 AM

People like just what they like and if they like a particular race, I think it is a whole lot better than them disliking/hating someone of a particular race. If someone likes a person of a certain race, a race different from that of their own, that should be the end of the discussion. There shouldn't be any follow-up Q's like "why do you like_____s?" "does your like for ______s mean you dislike people of your own race?" etc., it's WEAK.

It's not weak for Asian or Asian American females who want to avoid Asiaphiles to weed out said Asiaphiles. It's not weak for any person of any race to evaluate and reject a potential suitor who has sized them up, good or bad, based on racial stereotypes or fetishes.

MovingForward

01-04-2005, 02:30 PM

I think a person uttering such a phrase could be found guilty of being aesthetically racist - the implication that there exists a hierarchy of physical attractiveness by race can quickly lead to parallel conclusions by the speaker to other areas (emotions, physical and intellectual abilities).

Without hearing follow-up statements by the speaker, it may not be possible to establish the speaker as racist, a label which begs the speaker to declare feelings about capacities, not just physical traits.

I submit that most of us are quite capable of clinging to a belief (to get some security into life) that we are genuinely attracted to a trend of physical characteristics - so-called racial fetishism, only to discover by some wonderful accident that now we really, really think that OTHER race over there is the best looking. And when that happens, so much for whatever my racial fetish was yesterday.

Balthus Dire

01-05-2005, 12:13 AM

"It's not weak for Asian or Asian American females who want to avoid Asiaphiles to weed out said Asiaphiles. It's not weak for any person of any race to evaluate and reject a potential suitor who has sized them up, good or bad, based on racial stereotypes or fetishes."

Yea, maybe you're right, but why just Asian/American "females"? Are the males EXEMPT from this? And then "..said Asiaphiles" what's this?? Some sort of McCarthyism strategy to weed those types out? Hey, it's okay to dislike creeps no matter their so called "preferences" but I'm not for "calling people out" and like I said, if it were the other way around and a hatemonger was like hating people because they were a certain race, that situation'd be a whole lot worse--likely to be accepted by people in order to return the hate.

I live in Japan. If people dislike you here because you are a "gaijin", that's OK. You're exepcted to accept it as "the way things are", but if people are INTERESTED in you because you are a foreigner, am I supposed to not like it?
Thus, does that make the Japanese who like foreigners "gaijinophiles"?? Nah, I prefer to be liked in the long run.

"well the question is, do you like that person and they just happen to be race X, or do you have a preference for race X?"

That's a good point. I'd say even if they have a "preference" for a 'race x' too that it is OK because that's a human right of selection. Obviously I'd say that the former scenario is more natural, but just because I PREFER my coffee with sugar and a little cream doesn't mean that I DISLIKE my coffee also BLACK...it just depends on what I'm accustomed to, what I'm in the mood for, OR...whatever is available. That's that.

sandra

01-05-2005, 12:23 AM

That's a good point. I'd say even if they have a "preference" for a 'race x' too that it is OK because that's a human right of selection. Obviously I'd say that the former scenario is more natural, but just because I PREFER my coffee with sugar and a little cream doesn't mean that I DISLIKE my coffee also BLACK...it just depends on what I'm accustomed to, what I'm in the mood for, OR...whatever is available. That's that.

so sometimes you're in the mood for asian? or sometimes asian is all that's available?

Balthus Dire

01-05-2005, 02:06 AM

"so sometimes you're in the mood for asian? or sometimes asian is all that's available?"

...or sometimes what (I'm) used to.

kimpossible

01-05-2005, 08:28 AM

Yea, maybe you're right, but why just Asian/American "females"? Are the males EXEMPT from this? And then "..said Asiaphiles" what's this?? Some sort of McCarthyism strategy to weed those types out? Hey, it's okay to dislike creeps no matter their so called "preferences" but I'm not for "calling people out" and like I said, if it were the other way around and a hatemonger was like hating people because they were a certain race, that situation'd be a whole lot worse--likely to be accepted by people in order to return the hate.

I live in Japan. If people dislike you here because you are a "gaijin", that's OK. You're exepcted to accept it as "the way things are", but if people are INTERESTED in you because you are a foreigner, am I supposed to not like it?
Thus, does that make the Japanese who like foreigners "gaijinophiles"?? Nah, I prefer to be liked in the long run.

Hmm. Already with the sensationalized persecution as if it's racist for us to fight Asiaphilia. I can see I better wrap this up in short because I don't have a lot of time to give to what is shaping up to be one big justification for yellow fever.

It's not material if you don't want to take Asiaphilia seriously or give credence to the hypersexualized stereotypes of Asian and Asian American females that those women have to deal with and the resulting asexual stereotype that affects Asian and Asian American men in Western countries and/or the eyes of Westerners.

What superficial interest Japanese in Japan have with foreigners on a novelty basis is a separate issue from the legacy of colonial history and attitude that seeks to split the feminine and masculine, absorbing the feminine with paternalistic goals while boxing the masculine and embracing him as long as he fits the model minority stereotype. There is no true reversal of this situation using Japanese and Westerners in Japan as examples.

So, macro level, Asian Americans, racial stereotypes and orientalism. I could give a crap about your personal relationships or preferences, or any defense thereof. I got that you think obvious vitriol is the only real racist harm and racist love is positive. You're just not going to find many Asian Americans here, if any, to agree with that.

kitty

01-05-2005, 08:46 AM

I live in Japan. If people dislike you here because you are a "gaijin", that's OK.

Are you likening Asian Americans to being white in Japan? I didn't read your intro, but unless you happen to be a white Japanese citizen, the analogy really isn't that apt, because Japanese citizenry might dislike you because you represent militant colonialism and the imperialism of America having taken over their country and singlehandedly disarmed them for decades (not to mention the usual rape and pillaging associated with an occupying force).

While it may have something to do with your skin colour, there are global political attitudes at work...

You're exepcted to accept it as "the way things are", but if people are INTERESTED in you because you are a foreigner, am I supposed to not like it?
Thus, does that make the Japanese who like foreigners "gaijinophiles"??

Yes.

Nah, I prefer to be liked in the long run.

If you want to be a racialized pet, attractive only because of the colour of your skin, then sure, you're getting ass, but you're getting the skanky ass that only cares about the fact that you're 2.3 shades lighter than they are, not who you are as a person. I, for one, and I'm sure most of the men and women on this board would agree, would prefer to not be someone's minstrel or another square in their racial-dating bingo card.

That's a good point. I'd say even if they have a "preference" for a 'race x' too that it is OK because that's a human right of selection. Obviously I'd say that the former scenario is more natural, but just because I PREFER my coffee with sugar and a little cream doesn't mean that I DISLIKE my coffee also BLACK...it just depends on what I'm accustomed to, what I'm in the mood for, OR...whatever is available. That's that.

God, the coffee analogy is a) so cliched, and b) so fucked up. Attraction is a little more than the sum of their melanin, you know. If you're choosing sexual partners based on the colour of their skin, then you're either a) assuming that all people of the same race have the same personality or character traits (i.e. racist) or b) are never having relationships that transcend the purely physical level.

RangerX

01-05-2005, 10:01 AM

"I don't find MOST black women attractive, too ugly, too dark. I like pretty women, a"

Why use Non-White (Black) women as the subject ?

-RangerX
RWSWJ

kimpossible

01-05-2005, 10:14 AM

Why use Non-White (Black) women as the subject ?

-RangerX
RWSWJ

Well if you had taken it in context with the rest of what kinddeargirl wrote on only the first page...

Hi, I'm black hapa, I'm curious in everyone's opinions on this preference whether if it's racist or not. Thank you for your votes.

Yes, ugly is universal, but when apply it to a specific race in a statement that's racist.
Likewise with the feminine trait if apply to Asian men in statement is racist, feminine is also universal.

I'll let you know why later, there's a huge debate over this at another forum.

She's blasian. She was engaged in a debate at another forum that probably wasn't going in her favor. She came here looking for more input.

mr. x

01-05-2005, 02:10 PM

RangerX

01-05-2005, 05:24 PM

Balthus the problem with philia is that essentially you are liking race X for the same superficial reasons another person would hate race X

and is there really no problem at all with saying "I loves me some asian poon!"

I understand that a Person(s) may be attracted to a certain figure, look, hairstyle, in a Male/Female.

It is the mistreatment of a Person based on that person's skin Color that is incorrect and unjust.

That is Racism.

-RangerX
RWSWJ

nola

01-05-2005, 05:34 PM

Are you and Chu Chi cousins?

Admit it, MR. NATIVE AMERICAN, you have an ASIAN FETISHalong with about a billion other men.

Balthus Dire

01-06-2005, 01:04 AM

"Hmm. Already with the sensationalized persecution as if it's racist for us to fight Asiaphilia. I can see I better wrap this up in short because I don't have a lot of time to give to what is shaping up to be one big justification for yellow fever.

It's not material if you don't want to take Asiaphilia seriously or give credence to the hypersexualized stereotypes of Asian and Asian American females that those women have to deal with and the resulting asexual stereotype that affects Asian and Asian American men in Western countries and/or the eyes of Westerners.

What superficial interest Japanese in Japan have with foreigners on a novelty basis is a separate issue from the legacy of colonial history and attitude that seeks to split the feminine and masculine, absorbing the feminine with paternalistic goals while boxing the masculine and embracing him as long as he fits the model minority stereotype. There is no true reversal of this situation using Japanese and Westerners in Japan as examples.

So, macro level, Asian Americans, racial stereotypes and orientalism. I could give a crap about your personal relationships or preferences, or any defense thereof. I got that you think obvious vitriol is the only real racist harm and racist love is positive. You're just not going to find many Asian Americans here, if any, to agree with that."

Wow. Serious warrior are you I see. I sincerely didn't know your seeming hatred was so intense. Well, if it's any consolation to you, I hope you win the fight against "asiaphilism". So far, bros like me haven't written any books like, say Edward Saiid "Orientalism" etc., I can't say that it's wrong or that it's right. Anyway, it sounds feminist too. Even if you were a boy it'd still be like that. But I disagree with your point on it being different situation for Westerners in Japan. It may not entirely be a "true reversal", but it IS similar enough for you to get the point.

"Balthus the problem with philia is that essentially you are liking race X for the same superficial reasons another person would hate race X

and is there really no problem at all with saying "I loves me some asian poon!""

"you" is pointing the finger, but hey, that what you said is funny and I agree because I don't think it's wrong for someone to also say "I wuv the pet _______ snake!"

That's the problem too, right? I mean, after all if "______ poon" comes willingly, does that make her just as guilty???

and hey, Kitty too bad my coffee analogy was "f*cked up". As you might've guessed I didn't attend Harvard. "Sex pet"?? ME?? Well, we've all been used and exploited in one way or another. It is never going to end. I used to be full of that sort of fire and brimstone, but I save it for when there are more serious battles to be fought. When I posted that what I said I thought that folks like you'd be interested in my point ofr view. Don't hurt nobody, okay?

Napoleon Chynamite

01-06-2005, 01:42 AM

It's funny how like the arguments people make to convince others that they aren't asiaphiles actually make it ever so clear-cut for those who suspected it all along~

Balthus Dire

01-06-2005, 02:09 AM

"It's funny how like the arguments people make to convince others that they aren't asiaphiles actually make it ever so clear-cut for those who suspected it all along~"

:biggrin: Ha! Just be glad it isn't you!!

kitty

01-06-2005, 07:41 AM

I'll bet U wish it was TRUE about you Ms.NOLA

judging by your "wording" I'd suppose you like BIG things???

Please stop being so sexist and condescending to Nola. It's rude and sexually harassing.

That's the problem too, right? I mean, after all if "______ poon" comes willingly, does that make her just as guilty???

Yes, but it doesn't make you less guilty.

and hey, Kitty too bad my coffee analogy was "f*cked up". As you might've guessed I didn't attend Harvard.

Neither did I.

"Sex pet"?? ME?? Well, we've all been used and exploited in one way or another. It is never going to end.

Maybe, but are you advocating just bending over and taking it, or better yet defending your own exploitation as something to be proud of and assinine about?

I used to be full of that sort of fire and brimstone, but I save it for when there are more serious battles to be fought.

Like what? Oh, and thanks for belittling the struggle of all hypersexualized minorities everywhere. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside when there are actually Asiaphiles out there that give Asiaphiles a bad name.

When I posted that what I said I thought that folks like you'd be interested in my point ofr view.

If you felt that way, why'd you waste your time, unless you're trying to stir up other people's anger, in which case you are textbook trolling.