White Guys Hitting on Asian Girls at Asian Parties... [Archive]

Arex

05-29-2002, 12:47 AM

[quote:3759b628df="Barbs"]maybe the bottom line is just that generally speaking, only the slimey rejects approach girls at bars/clubs. or maybe i just feel that attractive, hot, successful guys don't waste their time doing that? [/quote:3759b628df]

Whoah! Damned if you do, damned if you don't...!! Not really on topic, but what is a guy supposed to do to meet a girl? If you approach a girl at a club and say "Hi!" you run the risk of being perceived as slimy. If you just kick back and play it cool, you end up solo, drinking/dancing by yourself all night. Guess if you're hot enough, the slimy girls will come running...?? I must not be hot or successful enough. So sad.=(

As for the whole non-Asian guy dating Asian girl thing, I must admit that I'm kinda torn on the whole issue. On the one hand, one of my best friends is this Caucasian dude who dates exclusively Asian (then again, he's got a dragon tattoo, takes Hapkido, and kicks it primarily with a bunch of Asians--classic "egg"). Also on the one hand, I'm all for the breaking down of color lines. On the other hand, the street seems to be almost exclusively one way and that's frankly just fucked up.

I don't blame the girl. I simply attribute it all to the fact that this IS America where Whites reign supreme in mass media and pop culture. If you grow up and all you see is White White White, I think it's pretty easy to develop the misconception that "whiter is better" (I say misconception because we all know that yellower is better...). So that explains the Asian girls who jump at the chance to date white guys and the white girls who balk at the idea of dating non-White. But how do we explain the white dudes? I think that can be more sinister. In my honest opinion, when you've got a non-Asian dude with a track record of dating Asian women, and that person doesn't otherwise adopt or identify with Asian culture, you've generally got yourself a fetish-izer. That, I'm not down for. But if the guy grew up in Chinatown or Little Saigon but just happens to be white, it's hard to fault the guy for having an eye for Asians. Of course, that's a really fine distinction and I'm still trying to sort it all out myself. What's the distinction between a fetish and a more innocent preference? Is it that a fetish is a purely sexual thing, devoid of all other usual ingredients that justify attraction (e.g., common interests, common experiences, etc.)? Is it that it's more of an objectification thing? But then again, when we see someone at a club that we perceive as "hot," we aren't thinking, "She's probably got a similar sense of humor as me...!" Is there a distinction at all? Can my preference for Asian women be classified as a fetish? Input anyone?

In the end, being the selfish person that I am, and given that I've been chronicly single for the past two years, I say if I ain't getting any from "my own kind," then neither should you so stay the fuck away from my people! Just kidding.

Alex

achtungbaby

05-29-2002, 01:10 AM

[quote:ee973862d2="kasia"]he actually wrote in one of them, "you remind me of my friend's chinese wife. she is sweet and warm."[/quote:ee973862d2]

That reminds me of my little Chinese girlfriend. She is very small.

achtungbaby

05-29-2002, 01:14 AM

[quote:9416e0be63="Arex"]If you just kick back and play it cool, you end up solo, drinking/dancing by yourself all night.[/quote:9416e0be63]

Actually, towards the end of my long after hours club binge, that was probably all I could ask for. Like that Carl's Jr. commercial: "Don't bother me, I'm rolling."

Barbs

05-29-2002, 08:24 PM

sometimes dancing alone can be fun. i hear ya on that point.

sandra

05-29-2002, 09:55 PM

arex:

your best caucasian friend also knows the japanese song 'saigo no iiwake' and you don't' :wink:

i say...bars are a cool place to hang out. so long as the guys are not demeaning and show no fetish, it's fun to dance and talk to new people--unless they're repulsive or something. it's not like you're going to marry them. i heard in d.c. the clubs are really cool b/c people are not pretentious and are willing to dance with anyone.

BUT...sometimes it's hard to distinguish when a white guy has a fetish or if he's just nice.

Barbs

05-29-2002, 09:59 PM

i suppose if they tell u that asian women are "exotic" or that they like how asian women speak,dress,behave, etc. that would be a total indication of fetishism. i think there are degrees as to what consitutes a fetish. on the one extreme, there are those who equate asian women with kinky,submissive,japanese-porn inspired sexual objects. on the other, there's just an appreciation or liking perhaps for how asian women look, i suppose. i really can't say as i'm not a white guy with an asian fetish. lol. but i really only find the extreme end offensive/repulsive.

a related question...do asian girls who strictly date white men or black men have fetishes?

tapestrybabe

05-30-2002, 09:08 AM

[quote:61e0857061="Barbs"]a related question...do asian girls who strictly date white men or black men have fetishes?[/quote:61e0857061]

I dunno.. an asian girl dating strictly whites or blacks.. that just doesn't have the same ring to it when you label it as a fetish. I think more people would label them as sell outs rather than having a fetish. And wellz... I think when it comes to liking a particular ethnic group... that doesn't automatically mean its a fetish. I feel a fetish is something more than just mere liking. Like with the Asian fetish... I think it has to do with the categorizing, stereotyping asian females as being exotic, mysterious, kinky...etc... And do Asian females who strictly date whites and blacks... have that same sense of categorizing them... I dunno... maybe. If they do, I don't think its as blatant as it is with Asian females being categorized and stereotyped...

IKPakI

05-30-2002, 01:18 PM

Check out this website about white men and asian women..

http://www.iistix.com/_cityofdis/bananarelationships.html

DaBestSpooner

06-17-2002, 10:47 PM

this one is sick
http://www.mrasiaphile.com/index.html

achtungbaby

06-21-2002, 02:01 AM

I'm really surprised no one has hacked the fuck out of that damn site.

princess

06-21-2002, 12:04 PM

eww that sick. i hate it when white guys assume that asians are sex objects.

NotAsian

06-21-2002, 12:41 PM

[quote:93685cd021="DaBestSpooner"]this one is sick
http://www.mrasiaphile.com/index.html[/quote:93685cd021]

Umm, ok I know there are a lot of weird people out there but that site has to be taking the mick, right?

Right???

achtungbaby

06-22-2002, 10:10 AM

[quote:d42d1cb37f="NotAsian"]Umm, ok I know there are a lot of weird people out there but that site has to be taking the mick, right?[/quote:d42d1cb37f]

Don't you mean "taking the cake," you damn Brit?!? :D

NotAsian

06-22-2002, 01:48 PM

[quote:c016714177="achtungbaby"][quote:c016714177="NotAsian"]Umm, ok I know there are a lot of weird people out there but that site has to be taking the mick, right?[/quote:c016714177]
Don't you mean "taking the cake," you damn Brit?!? :D[/quote:c016714177]
No, I mean "taking the piss", but I have the decency to be more ploite ;)

sxyOptiKali

06-27-2002, 10:53 AM

I admit it asian women are some of the most attractive in the world, but it should be based on a friendship basis i don't see the point in "going on the prowl" all your gonna get is women who would accept that treatment and neither of u know eachother...oops sry <steps off soap box> anyways you should treat people cause of how they are not how much of this race or that they are. :wink:

kimpossible

09-08-2002, 04:55 PM

When I get asiaphile overload I go see my Big Bad Chinese Mama (http://www.bigbadchinesemama.com/memoirs.html).

She cracks me up. Which reminds me of something I need to send to her.

sandra

09-08-2002, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by professor frink@Sep 8 2002, 06:35 AM
there's no such thing as reverse racism
what do you mean? of course there is.

deez nuts

09-08-2002, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by Barbs@May 28 2002, 05:52 PM
maybe the bottom line is just that generally speaking, only the slimey rejects approach girls at bars/clubs.
yeah curse those bottom-feeders, damn!

Hito

09-08-2002, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by kasia@Sep 8 2002, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by professor frink@Sep 8 2002, 06:35 AM
there's no such thing as reverse racism
what do you mean? of course there is.
Actualy there isnt.
Raceism is a white supreamist institution.
Marginilized groups like Asian americans, Latinos and Blacks cannot practice because we do not have the social/economic power to.

We can practice prejudice but in the long run it does not affect white people the same way as raceism effects groups of color.

SunWuKong

09-08-2002, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 8 2002, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by kasia@Sep 8 2002, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by professor frink@Sep 8 2002, 06:35 AM
there's no such thing as reverse racism
what do you mean? of course there is.
Actualy there isnt.
Raceism is a white supreamist institution.
Marginilized groups like Asian americans, Latinos and Blacks cannot practice because we do not have the social/economic power to.

We can practice prejudice but in the long run it does not affect white people the same way as raceism effects groups of color.
how do you define racism?

AliBabaIncorporated

09-08-2002, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 9 2002, 04:21 AM
Raceism is a white supreamist institution.
Marginilized groups like Asian americans, Latinos and Blacks cannot practice because we do not have the social/economic power to.

We can practice prejudice but in the long run it does not affect white people the same way as raceism effects groups of color.
racism is prejudice + power. but this is not 1800s Georgia. In this country there have and will arise situations where "marginalized minorities" have power over whites or over another minority - whether that be physical power, employment power, social power, etc.

an asian employee is as negatively affected by the prejudice of a Latino boss as he would be by prejudice from a white boss. an Asian being taunted as "chink" on a bus in a black neighborhood is hurt as much as if he were in a bus in a white neighborhood. as the only asian on the bus he's in as much physical danger if he shoots back with "nigger" as if he was being taunted by a bunch of whites and called them "redneck crackers."

i saw prejudice in high school from ABCs who didn't like half-white people. and there were plenty of times when situational details gave them control over me. prejudice + power. in reverse, I looked down on ABCs who couldn't speak Chinese. maybe you'd also call this a form of racially-based prejudice. and when the situation gave me the chance and gave me power over them, I wasn't exactly nice, caring, and unbiased towards them.

Hito

09-08-2002, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 8 2002, 09:39 PM
how do you define racism?
I define it as AliBabaIncorporated said.
Prejudice + Power.

I differ tho as to the situations that you put forth Ali.
Where they are henous they do not reach the level of institutionalized raceism.
The tables on each of your examples can be turned in a way that they cant be in reguards to raceism.
For example you can change the bus full of blacks to a bus full of asians and a single black, an asian resteraunt and a latino bus boy ect.
If we as groups of color have to stop the europeon from setting us with one another like that.
But the tables of financial/social/media power cannot be turned so easily.

achtungbaby

09-08-2002, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 8 2002, 08:21 PM
Actualy there isnt.
Raceism is a white supreamist institution.
Marginilized groups like Asian americans, Latinos and Blacks cannot practice because we do not have the social/economic power to.

We can practice prejudice but in the long run it does not affect white people the same way as raceism effects groups of color.
If I'm not mistaken, this theory was created by a white person, no?

achtungbaby

09-08-2002, 10:54 PM

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 8 2002, 09:44 PM
I differ tho as to the situations that you put forth Ali.
Where they are henous they do not reach the level of institutionalized raceism.
The tables on each of your examples can be turned in a way that they cant be in reguards to raceism.
For example you can change the bus full of blacks to a bus full of asians and a single black, an asian resteraunt and a latino bus boy ect.
If we as groups of color have to stop the europeon from setting us with one another like that.
But the tables of financial/social/media power cannot be turned so easily.
Does this mean that non-whites cannot be Asiaphiles?

sandra

09-09-2002, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 9 2002, 04:21 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Sep 8 2002, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by professor frink@Sep 8 2002, 06:35 AM
there's no such thing as reverse racism
what do you mean? of course there is.
Actualy there isnt.
Raceism is a white supreamist institution.
Marginilized groups like Asian americans, Latinos and Blacks cannot practice because we do not have the social/economic power to.

We can practice prejudice but in the long run it does not affect white people the same way as raceism effects groups of color.
are you speaking primarily of institutionalized racism?

racism = discrimination upon based on race

anyhow, by your definition then, women can't be sexist. i'm cool with that. :)

SunWuKong

09-09-2002, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by kasia@Sep 9 2002, 03:05 AM
anyhow, by your definition then, women can't be sexist.  i'm cool with that.  :)
what are you kidding? i have had so many women exert their power and influence over me. i can't be sexist.

AliBabaIncorporated

09-09-2002, 02:28 AM

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 9 2002, 05:44 AM

If we as groups of color have to stop the europeon from setting us with one another like that.
But the tables of financial/social/media power cannot be turned so easily.
how exactly do you define "institutionalized racism" so that it's always Whites as the aggressors and "people of color" as the victims?

you claim that racism by blacks against Asians or by Asians against Latinos or whatnot doesn't reach this level. What if I go into a DMV where 70% of the workforce, including every manager in the building, is black? I lived in Oakland, this happened all the time. Whose cultural standards prevail in such a situation where there are probably no white officials in the entire building? Not my standards and not white standards, that's for sure. Who's in the wrong when the clerk mistakes my politeness as sarcasm? Who am I gonna complain to if the clerk yells "DO YOU SPEAK ENGLISH" at me. What if we both go to the black manager to complain, what cultural lenses is that manager judging the situation through? Who gets the shit beaten outta him if the clerk yells "Chink" and I yell "Nigger?" That's me being negatively affected by prejudice coming from non-white workers who comprise the majority of an important institution.

What about a Latino who lives in a primarily Asian school district where every member of the school board is an immigrant professional? Think he's going to be unaffected by negative perceptions of Latinos as illegal farm laborers with gangbanger sons (recall that racism against Latinos and Blacks is actually HIGHER among immigrant Asians than their American-born kids or among white people)? Think he's gonna wanna bring up things like the need for more afterschool programs to keep kids out of trouble or remedial english education to boost test scores, or is he just gonna give up because everyone in the room is gonna dismiss him and his problems because he's a Latino and his problems wouldn't affect Asian kids? That's the Latino guy and his kid being negatively affected by prejudice coming from non-white parents who comprise the majority of an important institution.

Who should we blame it on when Univision or BET stereotypes Chinese people as delivery boys with bad accents?

Minorities have power to discriminate in this society, and it's not just because they are aping white people. It's because they're following the human tendency to support members of your own group against other groups.

Shuriken

09-09-2002, 10:29 AM

Here's an old post I found once on a now-defunct Internet message board:

What Is Racism?

Anybody — white, black, Asian, Latino, Native American — can be prejudiced, bigoted, and discriminatory. However, the prejudice of whites against people of color holds a unique place in American history. The United States was founded on the presumption of white privilege, and regrettably, this country has been built up from that skewed foundation. Although the U.S. has made significant and commendable strides towards greater racial equality (especially since the civil-rights movement of the '60s), the nation's proverbial "playing field" is not yet level. For this reason, white prejudice against "minorities" still acts as a powerful, politically dominant force. Appeals to white racial paranoia can effect such palpable political results as George Bush Sr.'s "Willie Horton" ad, the anti-(non-white-) immigrant movement, and the legal assaults against affirmative action. Non-white bigotry and resentment against whites, by contrast, is much less powerful and far-reaching politically.

For this reason, I believe that the United States needs a word that distinguishes the POLITICAL DOMINANCE and the INSTITUTIONALIZATION of white-against-minority bigotry from the political non-dominance of minority-against-white bigotry — the latter being largely a reaction to the former. And that word is "racism."

Therefore, I submit that — at this point in history — the word "racism" should be used exclusively to describe white discrimination against non-whites, not the reverse.

No, not all whites are personally responsible for the tragic histories of slavery, Jim Crow, the genocide of Native Americans, the internment of Japanese Americans, etc. However, white America has benefited and prospered from the racial inequalities that made these tragic historical events possible. Where, for example, would the wealth of the U.S. be today if it hadn't been founded on African American slave labor? Where would all of white America be today if it hadn't forcibly displaced the indigenous inhabitants of this land? In this instance, white bigotry against American Indians effected the usurpation of an entire continent. And everyone now living in the United States is the beneficiary of that racially motivated displacement, although few people (if any) alive today actually participated in driving the Indians off their land.

To be sure, in previous centuries, American Indian bigotry against whites sometimes resulted in the tragic massacres of Euro-American homesteaders. But today, can anyone honestly say that the bigotry of the white-hating Native American on an arid reservation is anywhere near as powerful as the officially mandated segregationism that forced his family onto that undesirable patch of land in the first place? The disparity between these forces, I believe, marks the disparity between the political potency of white racism and political impotence of mere prejudice against whites.

I'm not saying this to let people of color off the hook. Racially motivated hate crimes by minorities against whites should be condemned and brought to justice no less vigorously than racially motivated hate crimes against minorities. And even less serious minority-against-white infractions, such a racial slurs against Caucasians, should be challenged just as much as the reverse case. Also, the dominant ethnic groups in non-white countries overseas can be racist in their own contexts (such as Japan's discriminatory treatment of the Ainu and Indonesia's treatment of its ethnic-Chinese population).

But despite this nation's considerable strides, white privilege still dominates America. (Quick, name a President of the United States who wasn't a white male!) And for this reason, white discrimination functions differently than minority discrimination. Therefore — although this situation might change as the U.S. gradually becomes a "minority-majority" country — at this moment in American history, there can be no such thing as "reverse racism."

So, white America has a special responsibility to ensure a greater leveling of the playing field. This includes being aware of on-going racial disparities, practicing affirmative action, and ensuring the greater inclusion of non-white role models in the media. Without this awareness, and without these tools (among others), America will remain mired in the same old racial problems that ensnare the country today.

AliBabaIncorporated

09-09-2002, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by Shuriken@Sep 9 2002, 06:29 PM
But despite this nation's considerable strides, white privilege still dominates America. (Quick, name a President of the United States who wasn't a white male!)
hmm, when was the last time you saw a major US political party publically espousing the idea that only whites should be able to become president? I want a recent public statement reported in a newspaper of record, don't give me some lame argument about "insiduous hidden prejudice." hidden prejudice can't be institutionalized, especially in today's environment with the EEOC, newspapers trending left, NAACP having Sharpton and Jackson around looking to shake someone up, etc.

any other Malaysian Chinese out there wanna explain UMNO and "ketuanan melayu" to these good folks?

Hito

09-09-2002, 11:40 AM

If I'm not mistaken, this theory was created by a white person, no?

I actually came the conclusion myself but then found out it was hardly an original idea.
The first person I heard talk about it was Cornel West.
I have since heard the idea articulated by other Afrikan scholars.

Does this mean that non-whites cannot be Asiaphiles?
I am not exactly sure what all encompasses being an asiaphile but if you mean perusing Asian women based purely on the mischaracterization of her sexuality/personality through the popular media then no.
Same as there are Asian, Latino and euroPeon men and women who suffer from jungle fever because of the steriotype that black people are hyper libidinous. And gawd knows how successful men of color suffer from a serious bad case of "Caucasiaphilia" (chasing after trophy white women.)
I don’t know what you call people who chace latino and latinas but I am sure they exist acro

are you speaking primarily of institutionalized racism?

racism = discrimination upon based on race

anyhow, by your definition then, women can't be sexist. i'm cool with that.

I don’t think women have the kind of influence it takes to keep men from succeeding no.
Not women of color at any rate, and especially not against white men.

AliBabaIncorporated
I know am not articulating myself clearly and this will seem like I am rambling so I apologise, but again the examples you are talking about ARE prejudice (no doubt).
But I didn’t not say that we as groups of people couldn’t be prejudiced against one another.
Especially when for the most part we are ignorant of one another. And we DO all harbor prejudices bourn out of an ignorance that is based on popular misrepresentations. (Misrepresentations that are perpetrated by that same white racist system)
So we can discriminate against each other but we cannot oppress one another.

Don’t you ever wonder why it is that we so called minority groups outnumber whites in this country, but yet and still we continue to struggle just to level the playing field?
I think it is because europeons have exploited “the human tendency to support members of your own group against other groups.” And turned us among ourselves.
Blacks buy into the Model Minority myth and feel that Asian people are in line with white thought and out to hold them back. Asian people buy into the Thug Life image of blacks and feel we are out to rob and kill them.
We all buy into the myth that all South Americans are illegal immigrants here to steal our jobs and live off the state. And lets not forget the latest characterization of Muslims as swarthy villains biding there time till they can all pilot jetliners into American buildings.

To me racism is the denial of justice when a person of color can be beaten or killed by law enforcement officers defending this system and the officers are not punished.
Or beaten or killed by some good ol boys and have them not be punished
Or when you go to the white financial institution for a home of business loan and are turned down because of your race or nationality.
When the very fact that your skin is light to dark brown makes you a perpetual suspect.
When your image in the media causes people to fear for their safety so much that they clutch their possessions tightly to themselves when you enter an elevator or cross the street to avoid you.
It is when you are detained in camps or looked upon with suspicion (profiled) because of your ancestry.

Hito

09-09-2002, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Sep 9 2002, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Shuriken@Sep 9 2002, 06:29 PM
But despite this nation's considerable strides, white privilege still dominates America. (Quick, name a President of the United States who wasn't a white male!)
hmm, when was the last time you saw a major US political party publically espousing the idea that only whites should be able to become president? I want a recent public statement reported in a newspaper of record, don't give me some lame argument about "insiduous hidden prejudice." hidden prejudice can't be institutionalized, especially in today's environment with the EEOC, newspapers trending left, NAACP having Sharpton and Jackson around looking to shake someone up, etc.

any other Malaysian Chinese out there wanna explain UMNO and "ketuanan melayu" to these good folks?
Shuriken posted while i was struggleing with my reply. (that took me a few hours to come up with)

I have yet to see a person of color run in the republican party?
I see their lap dogs like nighthorse-campbell, Thomas, Rice and Powell (even tho he seems to be getting a bit too "upity" for them).
Folks who have benifited from social programs but seek to deny them to others.

kimpossible

09-09-2002, 11:47 AM

Does this mean that non-whites cannot be Asiaphiles?
I am not exactly sure what all encompasses being an asiaphile but if you mean perusing Asian women based purely on the mischaracterization of her sexuality/personality through the popular media then no.

Asiaphile is what you characterized and more. An Asiaphile will dote on anything Asian, extract it from reality, warp it to fit into their world and argue with any Asian that their version (the Asiaphile's version) is what being Asian is all about.

Women can do it too without sexualizing Asian women. Chopstix in the hair, obssessed with Asian clothing, or what they think is Asian clothing. It's not just white guys salivating over Asian women but I admit it does seem to be a good chunk of it. I think AliBaba has a good definition I read once.

SunWuKong

09-09-2002, 12:20 PM

just to add my own opinion to the mix...

i disagree with Hito's definition of racism. i tend to think of racism as the thought that a certain race is inherently inferior by virtue of being that race.

it seems to me that Hito's definition of racism is invariably tied to politics. that kind of rules out individual situations and it's difficult for me to believe that racism cannot exist without current policies (invisible or not) within the government and in the business world.

and even according to Hito's definition of racism, non-white people are perfectly capable of racism. one prime example would be the targetting of violence by black people of korean businesses during the rodney king riots. this shows just how much korean businesses are really under the mercy of the black community. and the common reason given of course is that korean businesses are a leech on the black community. but that excuse has the victim mentality written all over it. demand creates a market, not the reverse.

achtungbaby

09-09-2002, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Sep 9 2002, 11:20 AM
I want a recent public statement reported in a newspaper of record, don't give me some lame argument about "insiduous hidden prejudice." hidden prejudice can't be institutionalized, especially in today's environment with the EEOC, newspapers trending left, NAACP having Sharpton and Jackson around looking to shake someone up, etc.
While I disagree with the notion that non-whites cannot be racist, institutionalized racism has been the most effective tool in ensuring racial and class disparities. This is an example of actions speaking far, far louder than words or even newspapers of record.

achtungbaby

09-09-2002, 01:02 PM

To reply to Hito's comments: Cornell West is one of my favorite scholars/activists...I read Race Matters almost immediately after it was published when I was a freshman in college, and was inspired by his approach of blending liberal and conservative traditions.

However, I disagree with his assertion that non-whites in America cannot be racist. Someone else pointed out that our conceptions today of racism are closely tied to political or social power -- the power to enforce prejudice -- and certainly, since its inception, white America has enforced its prejudices onto the backs of black, brown and yellow peoples; this is power dynamics, as some critical race theorists might put it -- power retained and explicitly used by the dominant group to retain that power and subjugate the minority. But I think it's too simplistic to conceive of these terms as being stagnant, after all, while power is never given willingly, it's still given, shared and disseminated, and I think everyone would agree that given our rapidly changing demographics, power will continue to change. What then? Will whites no longer be racist, and the new dominant group accept that mantle? Or are we to assume that the next racial power won't try their best to hang onto it...?

deez nuts

09-09-2002, 03:35 PM

What about the bullshit that goes on between taiwanese and chinese, hell the ethnocentric tendencies towards other china provinces. My mom and dad got mad shit for dating and marrying(mom is cantonese and dad is fukinese). The stories they told me is almost like the prejudices of interracial dating.

What about north and south korea. I don't know much, but my korean friends tend to look down on north koreans.

I mean where do those cases stand?

Seems like racism to me.

I mean we are racist amongst our own? So, i don't see how it's not applicable towards other races.

Barbs

09-09-2002, 07:22 PM

reference Intra-Asian heirarchies thread.

AliBabaIncorporated

09-10-2002, 04:56 AM

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 9 2002, 07:46 PM
I have yet to see a person of color run in the republican party?
I see their lap dogs like nighthorse-campbell, Thomas, Rice and Powell (even tho he seems to be getting a bit too "upity" for them).
Folks who have benifited from social programs but seek to deny them to others.
"lap dogs"? What, because they don't represent your views they are white-wannabes?

AliBabaIncorporated

09-10-2002, 05:09 AM

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Sep 9 2002, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Sep 9 2002, 11:20 AM
I want a recent public statement reported in a newspaper of record, don't give me some lame argument about "insiduous hidden prejudice."  hidden prejudice can't be institutionalized, especially in today's environment with the EEOC, newspapers trending left, NAACP having Sharpton and Jackson around looking to shake someone up, etc.
While I disagree with the notion that non-whites cannot be racist, institutionalized racism has been the most effective tool in ensuring racial and class disparities. This is an example of actions speaking far, far louder than words or even newspapers of record.
so, you assert that institutional racism holds back minorities from advancing. Any proof aside from the circular observation that minorities have lower income and education? why is the reason automatically racism when a racial disparity exists?

right now, the main thing holding back poor of all races is that there's no way to save enough money to get your kid a decent education. Today's situation is not like that faced by European immigrants of the 1920s - most job growth is not in entry-level positions requiring little English skill or formal education. Why? Well, maybe corporate America liked the Euros of the 1920s but doesn't like the modern immigrants, and so they've decided to engage in an insiduous plot to oppress them. Or maybe it's because all the entry-level jobs - "jobs Americans won't do" - pay minimum wage or worse because of the vast oversupply of unskilled labor.

AliBabaIncorporated

09-10-2002, 05:21 AM

People are simply more able to trust those of their own race - people who look like them and share the same social customs - than those of other races - people who look different than them, and only share some, not all, of the same social customs. This is human nature. Deal with it, because short of genetic engineering it doesn't change. If white businessmen prefer to only hire other whites in corporations and rely on informal social networks with other whites, rather than low prices and better service, to maintain their business, they will eventually get clobbered by either a new domestic market entrant or a foreign competitor. (Cemex, anyone?)

So we can discriminate against each other but we cannot oppress one another.

Merriam-Webster claims oppress means "to crush or burden by abuse of power or authority." You wanna say that no member of a minority ethnic group has any position of power in America, or that we are all so honest and upright unlike evil Whitey that we never abuse that power?

Or when you go to the white financial institution for a home of business loan and are turned down because of your race or nationality.

Maybe because blacks and Latinos at most income level have fewer real assets than whites of the same income level, (and a higher proportion of their net wealth tied up in assets which depreciate, like a car) due to lower savings rates. Or is the difference in savings rates due to racism too?

achtungbaby

09-10-2002, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Sep 10 2002, 05:09 AM
so, you assert that institutional racism holds back minorities from advancing.

Yes.

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Sep 10 2002, 05:09 AM
Any proof aside from the circular observation that minorities have lower income and education? why is the reason automatically racism when a racial disparity exists?

Wait a second. I thought we were discussing institutional racism in regards to whether whites can be racist or not -- are you actually trying to argue that racism -- institutional or not -- doesn't exist?

And you want examples...? Well, you've certainly come to the right place! I wouldn't mind discussing whether racism exists at another time, and it probably deserves its own thread. For now, let's try and keep it to more digestable specifics (...like, 'are white people racist?'...heh).

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Sep 10 2002, 05:09 AM
...because of the vast oversupply of unskilled labor.

They're mostly here because we wanted them, even if we say we don't.

achtungbaby

09-10-2002, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Sep 10 2002, 05:21 AM
This is human nature. Deal with it, because short of genetic engineering it doesn't change.

Of course! Absolutely...many non-whites are accustomed, I think, to separatist accusations of ethnocentrism. Part of it is just as you said.

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Sep 10 2002, 05:21 AM
If white businessmen prefer to only hire other whites in corporations and rely on informal social networks with other whites, rather than low prices and better service, to maintain their business, they will eventually get clobbered by either a new domestic market entrant or a foreign competitor. (Cemex, anyone?)

But how reasonable is this example? It's like saying if a hooded Klansman decided to attack one of us walking down the street, he'd eventually get jumped by someone else, similar in that both examples are a bit impractical. Instead, how about the white businessman who prefers to promote only those who look like him, while selling as much of his "goods" or "services" (I'm being sarcastic here) to people who dont' look so much like him. Not good enough? Okay, how about over 30% of this country feeling like Asians, Chinese specifically, have too much influence in the technology sector? Or worse, that nearly half the country feels passing top secret information to China is a legitimate political issue.

It's certainly human nature to cast a suspicious, righteous eye on the sneaky foreigner.

So we can discriminate against each other but we cannot oppress one another.

Merriam-Webster claims oppress means "to crush or burden by abuse of power or authority." You wanna say that no member of a minority ethnic group has any position of power in America, or that we are all so honest and upright unlike evil Whitey that we never abuse that power?

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Sep 10 2002, 05:21 AM
Or is the difference in savings rates due to racism too?

Duh!:P

DaBestSpooner

09-10-2002, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 9 2002, 03:20 PM
just to add my own opinion to the mix...

i disagree with Hito's definition of racism. i tend to think of racism as the thought that a certain race is inherently inferior by virtue of being that race.

it seems to me that Hito's definition of racism is invariably tied to politics. that kind of rules out individual situations and it's difficult for me to believe that racism cannot exist without current policies (invisible or not) within the government and in the business world.

and even according to Hito's definition of racism, non-white people are perfectly capable of racism. one prime example would be the targetting of violence by black people of korean businesses during the rodney king riots. this shows just how much korean businesses are really under the mercy of the black community. and the common reason given of course is that korean businesses are a leech on the black community. but that excuse has the victim mentality written all over it. demand creates a market, not the reverse.
I interpret hito's view of racism as "whitey's big conspiracy" and "black people cant be racists."

Hito

09-10-2002, 06:28 PM

Wrong.
It is my assertion that *NONE* of the so called minoritys can be raceist.
I still hold that we can be descriminority against one another but we cannot hold each other back the way that the euroPeon has around the world.

Hito

09-10-2002, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Sep 10 2002, 05:56 AM
Originally posted by Hito@Sep 9 2002, 07:46 PM
I have yet to see a person of color run in the republican party?
I see their lap dogs like nighthorse-campbell, Thomas, Rice and Powell (even tho he seems to be getting a bit too "upity" for them).
Folks who have benifited from social programs but seek to deny them to others.
"lap dogs"? What, because they don't represent your views they are white-wannabes?
Not only because they don't represent my views.
Because they are in denial as to the social and econimic people of Afrikan decended people and other people of color.

Given the opportunity they would likely do away with all anti-descrimination laws put in place since the civil rights movement.

achtungbaby

09-10-2002, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 10 2002, 06:28 PM
Wrong.
It is my assertion that *NONE* of the so called minoritys can be raceist.
I still hold that we can be descriminority against one another but we cannot hold each other back the way that the euroPeon has around the world.
So are there varying degrees of racism, since a good argument could be made that certain races/cultures/states would be able to influence or oppress others, and that influence while less than white, nonetheless considerable.

Another problem I have with this is the slight, patronizing undercurrent that I think exists in this theory; it's why I mentioned earlier, that I thought the theory was thought up by someone white.

We are all pawns then, I guess; we don't even understand hatred as well as whites.

Hito

09-10-2002, 07:10 PM

Yeah i feel as if we are pawns. But the overall point i am getting at is if we quit allowing ourselves to be used as pawns against one another we can more efectivly work against this racist system.

we don't even understand hatred as well as whites
Hatred yes
But hatred with a rock as opposed to hatred with a tank.

achtungbaby

09-10-2002, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 10 2002, 07:10 PM
Yeah i feel as if we are pawns. But the overall point i am getting at is if we quit allowing ourselves to be used as pawns against one another we can more efectivly work against this racist system.
I think in more practical terms, I agree with what you're saying, because for the sake of coalition building, 'us against them' can be very effective. On the flip side, rhetoric like "only whites can be racist" can be an effective -- but also very sneaky. Pretty soon, issues that don't fall in line or agreement with the majority of non-whites are branded as racist, when in fact some of us might be for it, some against. I'm probably not being clear enough...I'll think about it a tad and get back to ya.

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 10 2002, 07:10 PM
But hatred with a rock as opposed to hatred with a tank.
Ahhh, well said:)

angel nympho

09-10-2002, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by professor frink@Sep 9 2002, 06:52 AM
racism cannot be reversed. racism is racism, and often times, prejudice between communities of color are misinterpretated as racism. it is not

love, professor frink
rac·ism   Pronunciation Key  (rszm)
n.
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.  
^-- dictionary.com

We can do it too, you guys.

angel nympho

09-10-2002, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Sep 10 2002, 01:21 PM
So we can discriminate against each other but we cannot oppress one another.

Merriam-Webster claims oppress means "to crush or burden by abuse of power or authority." You wanna say that no member of a minority ethnic group has any position of power in America, or that we are all so honest and upright unlike evil Whitey that we never abuse that power?
It doesn't always have to be so *big-picture* Oppression isn't always about politics. We, as minorities, still have the power to subjugate others outside of the political arena. I consider the domination and belittlement of one social group over another to be oppression within these groups...

kimpossible

09-11-2002, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 10 2002, 07:10 PM
Yeah i feel as if we are pawns. But the overall point i am getting at is if we quit allowing ourselves to be used as pawns against one another we can more efectivly work against this racist system.

we don't even understand hatred as well as whites
Hatred yes
But hatred with a rock as opposed to hatred with a tank.
I honestly can't see all 'communities of color' sitting and holding hands around a campfire singin Kum-ba-yah even though we face the same white patriarchal society in the US. (And this is coming from a really white-skinned girl - how hypocritical. Oh well, someone can quote me and pick it apart. Nature of the beast I suppose.)

I think of it more along the lines of an adage I heard once:

Me against my brother. My brother and I against my uncle. My uncle and I against a stranger.

To me this means in times of great strife where the threat is immediately shared, I think non-white communities will cooperate for limited periods of time but I think the notion of we're all the same if we're not white and can not, by virtue of ethnicity, be racist toward one another isn't reasonable. It's not like racism doesn't exist if no white person is present to enforce it.

Anyhoo, my two cents.

Hito

09-11-2002, 11:45 AM

I am not necessicarly saying we have to love one another unconditionaly.
Just stop long enough to realize when we ar being turned against each other.
The Model Minority, The Black Thug, The Illegal imegrant, and
The Muslem terrorist. Are all images in the popular (white) media that we all buy into.

angel nympho

09-11-2002, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 11 2002, 07:45 PM
I am not necessicarly saying we have to love one another unconditionaly.
Just stop long enough to realize when we ar being turned against each other.
The Model Minority, The Black Thug, The Illegal imegrant, and
The Muslem terrorist. Are all images in the popular (white) media that we all buy into.
It's important to remember that popular beliefs are just that --popular. Just because we're not white doesn't mean that we aren't suseptible to hold the same prejudices as whites sometimes do. I don't think that's a "weapon" of the white man to use against us. I think it's just common stereotypes that we should ALL (Asian, black, or white) be wary of.

AliBabaIncorporated

09-11-2002, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 11 2002, 07:45 PM
Just stop long enough to realize when we ar being turned against each other.

we turn against each other on our own, because it's in our short-term self-interest. it's been going on throughout human history (http://www.vdare.com/sailer/presentation.htm) - me against my brother, me and my borther against my uncle, and me and my uncle against the stranger. you keep blaming prejudice on abstract forces which you identify as "white": "the media," "the government," "the corporate hierarchy," etc. ignoring the fact that many participants in those institutions are non-white and act on their own set of non-white social values, cultural habits, and racism. but then we've already seen that you marginalize many such people as white-wannabes cuz they don't share your perspectives.

SunWuKong

09-12-2002, 01:35 AM

you know, i really just want to point out how naive it is to think that we have a "common enemy" in white people. yes, white people have done some pretty fucked up shit to everybody else in the past. but let's look at the modern-day trends here. ok, white people put a glass ceiling above our heads, and they think asian guys are nerds while asian girls are sexual objects.

but...

what color are the people who give asians the most taunts and jeers and violence in the cities: black

what color are the people who robbed and mugged my relatives repeatedly: black

what color are the people who said "chink" and laughed everytime jackie chan or jet li came on the movie screen: black

what color are the people who vandalized korean stores: black

need i say more?

and hey it's not that i have a problem with black people in general. i've met some really cool people who are black. but the fact is that asian people in the cities are being victimized more by black people than by white people.

DaBestSpooner

09-12-2002, 06:20 AM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 12 2002, 04:35 AM
you know, i really just want to point out how naive it is to think that we have a "common enemy" in white people. yes, white people have done some pretty fucked up shit to everybody else in the past. but let's look at the modern-day trends here. ok, white people put a glass ceiling above our heads, and they think asian guys are nerds while asian girls are sexual objects.

but...

what color are the people who give asians the most taunts and jeers and violence in the cities: black

what color are the people who robbed and mugged my relatives repeatedly: black

what color are the people who said "chink" and laughed everytime jackie chan or jet li came on the movie screen: black

what color are the people who vandalized korean stores: black

need i say more?

and hey it's not that i have a problem with black people in general. i've met some really cool people who are black. but the fact is that asian people in the cities are being victimized more by black people than by white people.
times I've been stabbed by white people: 0
times I've been stabbed by black people: 1
times I've been held at gun point by white people: 0
times I've been held at gun point by black people: 2
times my gf has been gropped by white people: 0
times my gf has been gropped by black people: 4
times my gf's apt in harlem has been broken into: 2
times my gf's roommates been robbed in harlem: 5
length of time it took for my gf's brother to get robbed by a black person: first day in america

there are good and bad people of every race\color\etc but I've put up with a great deal of shit from black people more often then any other people.

angel nympho

09-12-2002, 02:07 PM

^-- Is it really necessary to see things always in black and white? Bottom line: there are people out there who make bad decisions, there are people out there we should be wary of, there are people out there with small minds. some of these people are white, some are black, some are asian.

Pointing fingers at ethnicities as a whole for the behavior of some is just as bad as what everybody on this site complains about: prejudice, oppression, and stereotypes.

Hito

09-13-2002, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by DaBestSpooner@Sep 12 2002, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 12 2002, 04:35 AM
you know, i really just want to point out how naive it is to think that we have a "common enemy" in white people.  yes, white people have done some pretty fucked up shit to everybody else in the past.  but let's look at the modern-day trends here.  ok, white people put a glass ceiling above our heads, and they think asian guys are nerds while asian girls are sexual objects.

but...

what color are the people who give asians the most taunts and jeers and violence in the cities:  black

what color are the people who robbed and mugged my relatives repeatedly:  black

what color are the people who said "chink" and laughed everytime jackie chan or jet li came on the movie screen:  black

what color are the people who vandalized korean stores:  black

need i say more?

and hey it's not that i have a problem with black people in general.  i've met some really cool people who are black.  but the fact is that asian people in the cities are being victimized more by black people than by white people.
times I've been stabbed by white people: 0
times I've been stabbed by black people: 1
times I've been held at gun point by white people: 0
times I've been held at gun point by black people: 2
times my gf has been gropped by white people: 0
times my gf has been gropped by black people: 4
times my gf's apt in harlem has been broken into: 2
times my gf's roommates been robbed in harlem: 5
length of time it took for my gf's brother to get robbed by a black person: first day in america

there are good and bad people of every race\color\etc but I've put up with a great deal of shit from black people more often then any other people.
Have I inadvertently posted something offensive to Asian people in this thread?
If so I would like to take the time here and now to offer my apologies to the YW community; because throughout this conversation I have endeavored to address my other brown skinned brothers and sisters as equals, even though I have acknowledged that even thought the experiences of our people in this land may be similar; as culturally diverse people we have had, and continue to experience tensions and misunderstandings.
However for some reason you (SWK and DBS,) have seen fit to single out a group of people and characterize them as somehow more fearful and deserving of your contempt than the europeon. I am curious as to why?
I mean if I was trying to somehow say that Asian people are part of the problem, then I would understand (and even expect) that kind of reply. But I have not stepped to any one here or in the real world with that kind of disrespect.

DBS
Could the reason that Asian and Blacks are coming into conflict so much in cities than with whites is because there are more Asian and Blacks people in the cities than there are whites?
When we talk about the violence we commit against other groups or among our own people we have to look at who is living around us and what social and economic situation of the area.

For instance
If I am attacked in East LA; A low income largely Latino section of town, will it be by Whites or Asians?
If I am attacked in the low income areas of the local Little Tokyo or China Town Would it be by Hispanics, Blacks or whites? Or economically disadvantaged Asian people?
In these same instances is the attack likely to come from a brother conscious in the struggle or the desperate man who needs that next drug fix and is not in their right mind anyway or someone who has fallen for the lie and jonseing for some retribution?

Sort of in addendum to the above point.
Would I be more likely to be attached on one of these other communities or is it more likely that the people of those communities will come under attack by there own people?
The same way a woman is more likely to be raped by someone they know or a family member. We are more likely to be victims of violence perpetrated by someone who looks like us. Then by extension we as oppressed or disadvantaged peoples are more likely to prey upon one another.
One reason I believe is that there is less consequence if we kill ourselves, than if we say took out europeons. Since our lives have come to have less meaning because continued misrepresentation and dehumanization.

SWK
If you were to live in a Midwestern Asian community the people you are talking about would be crackas and rednecks.
And just so we are in a place of understanding.
Would you have me believe that Asian people do not use racial epithets in public or among themselves to refer to other peoples of color?
No?

And I ask again who is more likely to be the person these epithets are coming from?
Are they the conscious, educated brother and sisters or the ignorant ones?

It is not my goal nor my desire to minimize either of your experiences or marginilize your pain, but you point out acts of violence and ridicule perpetrated against yourselves and those close to you as if some how no one of another group has been come to harm by the criminal or uninformed element of the Asian community; be it through design or misunderstanding.

Your comments I feel are illustrative of the point I made about marginalized communities being turned against one another.
Because we feel that we “take more shit” in our own communities we run to the white parts of town to do our business, be entertained, shop.
And because you feel that you “take more shit” from blacks as you say’ perhaps you will be more likely to side with whites in saying that the next black man gunned down for pulling his wallet deserved it because he was just like the guy who wronged you.
The men who killed Vincent Chin no doubt felt that they had had Taken enough shit from the Asians as well; Soon Ja Du had “taken enough shit” from blacks, the Blacks in crown heights likely felt as if they had “taken enough shit” from the Jews, and the guys who dragged James Byrd to death had probably “taken enough shit” from the blacks as well.
In all of the instances where it was one “minority” community against another, the europeon gained headway and we again fell back.

I generally hang with a pretty diverse crowd. Most of us or people close to us have been done wrong in the past by other groups of people. Not unlike the experiences you have shared, and sometimes even worse.
But as conscious people we try to understand the reasons “why”; and instead of going on the attack when conscious people from other communities try to gain some ground in this struggle we are all in.
We try to understand that the harm we do to one another can just hold us back and the conditions that keep us in this situation can only be reversed by working together.
Otherwise it just makes the europeons work easier as we pull each other down and hold ourselves back..

I look at things this way.
Asians were not a part of the middle passage and slave trade; it was not Blacks or Latinos that dropped atomic weapons on Nagasaki & Hiroshima.
Neither Asians, Blacks nor Latinos were not responsible for the elimination of each and every single indigenous person in Tasmania or the systematic destruction of the indigenous people of America.
And none of us is responsible for setting up or benefiting from the system of institutionalized racism that continues to keep us on the fringes of society till this day.

Hito

09-13-2002, 04:41 PM

fucking jungle bunnies (oops - i'll bet jesse jackson will come up and complain on national t.v) -- it's people like that which gives a bad name for good and tolerant black folk around america.

Would you have me believe that Asian people do not use racial epithets in public or among themselves to refer to other peoples of color?
No?

Ahem...
http://www.darkervisions.com/bp/rolleyes.gif

i think rush hour opened up a can of worms in that it allowed blacks to openly criticise asians. i can see it more and more now. with rush hour 3 coming out i can see that annoying asshole chris tucker (is it only me who thinks the dude should be shot?) taking the piss out of asians - specifically jackie chan.

Now i am only bringing this up becasue i liked both rush hours and thought it was funny to see Blacks and Asians ripping on one another on the big screen.

But does no one rember Jackie doing his share?

Whats up my niggas and Slap you back to Africa and so forth? :blink:

Hito

09-13-2002, 04:47 PM

Ant why are my quote tags not workin?

deez nuts

09-13-2002, 04:56 PM

You didn't offend me bro. No need to apologize for your opinion, you seem to be a knowledgable and reasonable guy.

I think DBS and SWK were just citing their own personal experiences. Morientes did also say that the black people that commit crimes give black people in america a bad name. And that can be applied to any other color of peeps too; the asians, the latins etc etc.

edit: as to rush hour and rush hour 2. It depends on the person.

Hito

09-13-2002, 05:13 PM

Yeah Morientes I felt you.

That is why i used the rool eyes smiley afterward.
I am sorry for the misunderstanding :D

AS for RH.
I had read interviews that said that both actors tried not to cross too far over the line with there dialogue.
Especialy jackie.
And inbetween Rus Hour 1 & 2 Chris has made a decision to use less profanity and deragatory humor

achtungbaby

09-13-2002, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by DaBestSpooner@Sep 12 2002, 06:20 AM
times I've been stabbed by white people: 0
times I've been stabbed by black people: 1
times I've been held at gun point by white people: 0
times I've been held at gun point by black people: 2
times my gf has been gropped by white people: 0
times my gf has been gropped by black people: 4
times my gf's apt in harlem has been broken into: 2
times my gf's roommates been robbed in harlem: 5
length of time it took for my gf's brother to get robbed by a black person: first day in america
Hey! Looks like you're fit to hang out in ktown too...!

achtungbaby

09-13-2002, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 13 2002, 04:37 PM
Have I inadvertently posted something offensive to Asian people in this thread?

No, I don't think they were necessarily singling out blacks (or were you guys?), but more so to point out certain realities: you've said before that non-whites were incapable of racism just prejudicial acts. Well, to concede to that (for a moment)...sometimes prejudicial acts kill.

Anyway, no need to apologize, sheesh!:)

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 13 2002, 04:37 PM
The same way a woman is more likely to be raped by someone they know or a family member. We are more likely to be victims of violence perpetrated by someone who looks like us. Then by extension we as oppressed or disadvantaged peoples are more likely to prey upon one another.

I agree. I'm convinced that my apartment was broken into by Koreans.

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 13 2002, 04:37 PM
Because we feel that we “take more shit” in our own communities we run to the white parts of town to do our business, be entertained, shop.
And because you feel that you “take more shit” from blacks as you say’ perhaps you will be more likely to side with whites in saying that the next black man gunned down for pulling his wallet deserved it because he was just like the guy who wronged you.
The men who killed Vincent Chin no doubt felt that they had had Taken enough shit from the Asians as well; Soon Ja Du had “taken enough shit” from blacks, the Blacks in crown heights likely felt as if they had “taken enough shit” from the Jews, and the guys who dragged James Byrd to death had probably “taken enough shit” from the blacks as well.
In all of the instances where it was one “minority” community against another, the europeon gained headway and we again fell back.

I generally hang with a pretty diverse crowd. Most of us or people close to us have been done wrong in the past by other groups of people. Not unlike the experiences you have shared, and sometimes even worse.
But as conscious people we try to understand the reasons “why”; and instead of going on the attack when conscious people from other communities try to gain some ground in this struggle we are all in.
We try to understand that the harm we do to one another can just hold us back and the conditions that keep us in this situation can only be reversed by working together.
Otherwise it just makes the europeons work easier as we pull each other down and hold ourselves back..

I look at things this way.
Asians were not a part of the middle passage and slave trade; it was not Blacks or Latinos that dropped atomic weapons on Nagasaki & Hiroshima.
Neither Asians, Blacks nor Latinos were not responsible for the elimination of each and every single indigenous person in Tasmania or the systematic destruction of the indigenous people of America.
And none of us is responsible for setting up or benefiting from the system of institutionalized racism that continues to keep us on the fringes of society till this day.

Whoo! Wow. Solid rebuttal...

achtungbaby

09-13-2002, 06:35 PM

Regarding Rush Hour...I liked em:) I think it'd understandable that Asians get a little peeved with Chris Tucker dolling out his trash talking, because he's just better at it than Jackie Chan! He sure ain't no fighter...I think he's hilarious.

deez nuts

09-13-2002, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 13 2002, 07:37 PM

DBS
Could the reason that Asian and Blacks are coming into conflict so much in cities than with whites is because  there are more Asian and Blacks people in the cities than there are whites?
When we talk about the violence we commit against other groups or among our own people we have to look at who is living around us and what social and economic situation of the area.

For instance
If I am attacked in East LA; A low income largely Latino section of town, will it be by  Whites or Asians?
If I am attacked in the low income areas of the local Little Tokyo or China Town Would it be by Hispanics, Blacks or whites? Or economically disadvantaged Asian people?
In these same instances is the attack likely to come from a brother conscious in the struggle or the desperate man who needs that next drug fix and is not in their right mind anyway or someone who has fallen for the lie and jonseing for some retribution?

Sort of in addendum to the above point.
Would I be more likely to be attached on one of these other communities or is it more likely that the people of those communities will come under attack by there own people?
The same way a woman is more likely to be raped by someone they know or a family member. We are more likely to be victims of violence perpetrated by someone who looks like us. Then by extension we as oppressed or disadvantaged peoples are more likely to prey upon one another.
One reason I believe is that there is less consequence if we kill ourselves, than if we say took out europeons. Since our lives have come to have less meaning because continued misrepresentation and dehumanization.

DBS to be real, hito does have a point with some of your examples. Not to belittle what happened to you, your girl, her brother, your friend and her roommates. But it applies to some of your examples. Your girl does live in Harlem (or am I mistaken?). And for those that don't know it is a predominantly black neighborhood.

Hito

09-13-2002, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Sep 13 2002, 07:31 PM

No, I don't think they were necessarily singling out blacks (or were you guys?), but more so to point out certain realities: you've said before that non-whites were incapable of racism just prejudicial acts. Well, to concede to that (for a moment)...sometimes prejudicial acts kill.

I understand.
All of us are in unique situation here in america and that is the reason that I try to not ever loose sight of that fact.

In a hemogenous country the proglems of the people are clearer.
Here the hows and whys can sometimes become confused.

DaBestSpoona

09-15-2002, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 13 2002, 07:37 PM
DBS

Sort of in addendum to the above point.
Would I be more likely to be attached on one of these other communities or is it more likely that the people of those communities will come under attack by there own people?
The same way a woman is more likely to be raped by someone they know or a family member. We are more likely to be victims of violence perpetrated by someone who looks like us. Then by extension we as oppressed or disadvantaged peoples are more likely to prey upon one another.
One reason I believe is that there is less consequence if we kill ourselves, than if we say took out europeons. Since our lives have come to have less meaning because continued misrepresentation and dehumanization.

SWK
If you were to live in a Midwestern Asian community the people you are talking about would be crackas and rednecks.
And just so we are in a place of understanding.
Would you have me believe that Asian people do not use racial epithets in public or among themselves to refer to other peoples of color?
No?

And I ask again who is more likely to be the person these epithets are coming from?
Are they the conscious, educated brother and sisters or the ignorant ones?

It is not my goal nor my desire to minimize either of your experiences or marginilize your pain, but you point out acts of violence and ridicule perpetrated against yourselves and those close to you as if some how no one of another group has been come to harm by the criminal or uninformed element of the Asian community; be it through design or misunderstanding.

Your comments I feel are illustrative of the point I made about marginalized communities being turned against one another.
Because we feel that we “take more shit” in our own communities we run to the white parts of town to do our business, be entertained, shop.
And because you feel that you “take more shit” from blacks as you say’ perhaps you will be more likely to side with whites in saying that the next black man gunned down for pulling his wallet deserved it because he was just like the guy who wronged you.
The men who killed Vincent Chin no doubt felt that they had had Taken enough shit from the Asians as well; Soon Ja Du had “taken enough shit” from blacks, the Blacks in crown heights likely felt as if they had “taken enough shit” from the Jews, and the guys who dragged James Byrd to death had probably “taken enough shit” from the blacks as well.
In all of the instances where it was one “minority” community against another, the europeon gained headway and we again fell back.

I generally hang with a pretty diverse crowd. Most of us or people close to us have been done wrong in the past by other groups of people. Not unlike the experiences you have shared, and sometimes even worse.
But as conscious people we try to understand the reasons “why”; and instead of going on the attack when conscious people from other communities try to gain some ground in this struggle we are all in.
We try to understand that the harm we do to one another can just hold us back and the conditions that keep us in this situation can only be reversed by working together.
Otherwise it just makes the europeons work easier as we pull each other down and hold ourselves back..

I look at things this way.
Asians were not a part of the middle passage and slave trade; it was not Blacks or Latinos that dropped atomic weapons on Nagasaki & Hiroshima.
Neither Asians, Blacks nor Latinos were not responsible for the elimination of each and every single indigenous person in Tasmania or the systematic destruction of the indigenous people of America.
And none of us is responsible for setting up or benefiting from the system of institutionalized racism that continues to keep us on the fringes of society till this day.
Hito

Well all your theories do not apply. NYC's black population is 15%, whites are in the 60 percentile, asians 7%. I did not get robbed or stabbed in a black neighborhood, both incidents were in a predominantly jewish\white part of queens , my gf's brother got robbed on central park bus that runs along museum row near the metropolitan museum. yeah I'm sure you'll get robbed in chinatown and most likely it will be asian mugger. Yeah I guess people were asking for it when they move into a black neighborhood near their campus. But it should not be that way. You bring up we must think "why", there shouldnt be a why.

oppressed, disadvantage people? theres no "we"
I'm neither, I got around your so called opression, its called working hard or "giving in to the europeon" as you would call it.

Rush hour was pretty offensive alright, glad you enjoyed the negative sterotypes of loud mouth blacks ignorant of any culture, demure asian women working in massage parlors, desensualize asian men, black drug/gun dealers, dog eating jokes, and the mocking of my language, cept for don cheadle, he kinda saved the movie.

I dont find offense in your remarks btw

I just find the fact you continue to somehow tie white men to the attrocities that occur between our 2 communities rediculous.

To add to your "blame whitey" reading list, I sugguest you read "stupid white men" by michael moore as well as the "illuminati manfesto"

You really think white people gather every monday morning in a conference room over coffee and donuts discussing ways to demean and opress the minorities? Whats with the europeans bashing, they play no role in your opression? I'm sure the belgiums are plotting as we speak.

"What was run down of last week Bert?"

"Well sir, finally we have the upper hand in the 4 elements of hiphop"

"Stash and Futura are the most popular graffitti artists in the world,europeans dominate the breakdancing competitions,the most popular rapper in the world is white, and we're killing the freestyle battle circuit as well as the backpacker scene and no black man has made it in the top 3 in world DMC's or ITF competitions since roc raida"

"we did slip and let an asian win a few freestyle fridays on BET"

"but on a brighter note we're kicking their behinds in double dutch, and cheerleading"

"and I'd like to add nobody watches UPN, and friends is still the most popular show on tv"

"and we just beat those nips in the little league world championships"

kimpossible

09-15-2002, 08:33 PM

Hito,

You didn't do anything wrong. You didn't say anything wrong. Overall you seem to be doing more right than wrong, especially considering there are full blooded Asians on this site that are extremely offensive and have trouble relating to others.

But this is Yellowworld and the site is dedicated to the perspective and issues of Asian Americans. You can expect that the opinions of some here are going to seem pretty harsh to you and I wouldn't hold your breath for them to get more politically correct anytime soon.

The problem I see is that you are trying to connect with Asians on an Asian site on a "Hey, I'm not white either bro, down with the man" type of way and it's incomprehensible to you that some Asians are going to have as much or more problems with blacks as they do with whites.

Being non-white is not the same as being Asian or having an Asian perspective and everyone here is primarily Asian. I hope I can convince you that I'm not just talking out of my ass (despite my dopier posts). Hell, I'm the whitest Asian here - we talk about whites, honkies, and your favorite Hito, euroPeons. I could turn around and say the same thing: what did I say to offend anyone? I don't because I know why Asians and blacks talk about white folks, I don't take it personally or feel offended and I highly value a space where Asians can talk freely. Those terms and core values were clearly understood by me when I joined this community.

I'm going to pause here before I write an essay, plus I want to give you a chance to respond as I imagine I may not have clearly presented the things I was thinking.

Forum conversation: moving at the snail's speed of internet posting.

SunWuKong

09-17-2002, 04:17 PM

Hito,

Sorry for the slow response. I've been in NYC for the last few days.

I'm sorry if I seem to be targetting black people, but the reality of the situation is that while the guy who might keep me from my promotion is white, the guy who is going to rob me is most likely going to be black. No, I don't think all or most black people are criminals, but to the best of my knowledge none of my family members have ever been physically victimized by white people. They were all victimized by black people.

If you have alot of black relatives who were victimized in Chinatown by Asian people, I would love to hear of it. Hell, while I was away in NYC, I actually saw a black kid running away with a stolen watch from a shop on Canal Street (part of NYC Chinatown), leaving the Chinese owner yelling after him.

But the reason I'm pointing this reality out is that I think it's a little ridiculous to say that "minorities" have a common enemy in white people. The problems Asian people have and the problems black people have are not alike at all. Sure, there may be a few similar problems, but sorry, in my opinion, I think Asian people and black people face very different struggles. Placing Asian people so easily in the "minority" group is tantamount to marginalizing them.

And yeah, I know plenty of racist Asian people. But none of them have ever robbed or mugged a black person. For being Asian, white people probably are more likely to think of me as smarter than I actually am, instead of thinking of me as a criminal on first sight, so sorry, I don't feel that white people are trying to keep me down, at least not directly, and certainly not in the same way that they keep black people down. And sorry if I come off as sounding racist, but past experiences have taught me to be more worried about being mugged by a black dude than being demoted by a white dude.

SunWuKong

09-17-2002, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by KuroBishounen@Sep 17 2002, 11:38 PM

Whites are going to think of you--just because you are Asian--smarter than you really are(no matter where you hail from), but because I am Black...never lived or been near a ghetto...I will be thought of as a criminal....

I have more to say, but if you can clarify....I will greatly appreciate it...

that is generally the stereotypes (although a watered down simplification) that society perpetuates.

Originally posted by KuroBishounen@Sep 17 2002, 11:38 PM

And, I don't believe you were really reading Hito's post....

no i understand what he's saying. what he offered are reasons why asians might be victimized by black people, which is that asian people and black people both like to live in urban areas, but that certainly failed to justify the victimization. for one thing, i am seeing it as a one-way relationship. perhaps i simply don't know enough black people. do you know many black people who were victimized by asian people? and no, i am not trying to imply that black people are singling out asian people. i am very certain that black people victimize themselves more than anybody else. but my original post - as i was trying to explain in my second post - was to illustrate that it's ridiculous to think of white people as a "common enemy" when asian people are being victimized by black people. i had a feeling that Hito missed what i was trying to convey the first time around because he was busy verifying that not all black people are criminals, which is something i never claimed, however, i do know for a fact that asian people i know in the cities have been victimized more by black people than by white people. i am saying that if an asian person was to be victimized, the victimizer would probably be black - which is not the same as saying that all or most black people are victimizers, it's only saying that there's a minority of black people who are victimizers, and that minority happens to make up a disproportionately big percentage of victimizers in general.

Originally posted by KuroBishounen@Sep 17 2002, 11:38 PM

You are in NYC...

no i don't live in NYC. i've lived there before and i have relatives there. i just came back from a visit.

Originally posted by KuroBishounen@Sep 17 2002, 11:38 PM

I'm pretty sure if you were to move to...let's say Little Italy...you would be "victimized" by Whites...more than you would be "victimized" by Blacks...

not really. Little Italy in NYC has been pretty much eatened up by Chinatown.

but i understand your point. however, "white" areas do not exactly dominate the cities. and many "white" areas are also rich areas, which is to say that those areas are generally low in crime. asian people are bound to come across or even live in black areas. and sorry to perpetuate another stereotype, but it's only a fact that low-income areas in the cities are predominately black, and they are also high in crime. it would be nice if we can all avoid these areas, but sometimes we cannot afford to. i think all my relatives would love to live in uptown manhattan. but life is not so peachy for them.

so would asian people be victimized just as much by white people if they frequent the "white" areas more than the "black" areas? i maintain that they would be victimized more in the "black" areas because they are also the low-income areas with high crime rates.

i realize it may be un-PC or taboo to talk about black people victimizing asian people. but i think most asian people who have lived in the city would probably agree that they get more shit from black people than from white people.

kimpossible

09-18-2002, 08:21 AM

KB, I'm going to ask you a question openly because I'm at a place where I'm both curious and I just don't understand. If you think I'm being sarcastic, please don't, I can assure you that I like to ask questions rather than sit in the dark wondering.

Let's say you 'win' a debate with Monkey (Sun Wu-Kung). Or somehow just tire him out so that he doesn't want to debate about this anymore. What do you get from this site? Other than some chat about Asian videogames and anime?

To be fair to Monkey, I think he's been expressing the same thing all along: the concerns and goals of the Asian community, men or whatever is not easily swept under the umbrella of the minority struggle as we have heard it from black men [on this site]. At least, that's what I'm hearing from him.

And why single out Monkey? Why not DaBestSpooner, AliBaba or myself?

SunWuKong

09-18-2002, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by KuroBishounen@Posted on Sep 18 2002, 02:08 AM

Well, we know that there are both sides of the picture...the old story of the Asian shopkeeper who looks down on his/her Black customers...(not denying that there are Blacks who steal)...so forth...

So what are we comparing here? The Asian shopkeeper looking down on his black customers, and his black customers stealing from him? Are the thefts supposed to be justifiable because the Asian shopkeepers are looking down on his black customers?

Originally posted by KuroBishounen@Posted on Sep 18 2002, 02:08 AM

Hmm, the same lily-white areas where people were so surprised that something like Columbine happened...

I thought Columbine was in the suburbs? And we've been talking about urban areas right? There aren't usually even "black" areas in suburban areas and rural areas. And the Columbine incident isn't even a comparable situation to what we've been talking about. We're talking about Asian people being mugged, robbed, physically threatened, etc, by black people.

Originally posted by KuroBishounen@Posted on Sep 18 2002, 02:08 AM

Now, how about an area like Baldwin Hills or Lamert Heights? Not a ghetto, but known as the Black Beverly Hills with middle-class African-Americans residing there....

Well, I'm sure things are very different there. But how many "Black Beverly Hills" are there in this country? I personally have never been to one. All the "black" neighborhoods I've been to are low-income neighborhoods with high crime rates. I'm just stating a fact here. Hey I would love for the crime rates to decrease, so Asian people living or going through those neighborhoods wouldn't be victimized.

Originally posted by KuroBishounen@Posted on Sep 18 2002, 02:08 AM

here is the stereotype that some Blacks hold, that some Asians desire to be White, so they hold some "White" views toward Blacks--the reason that some Blacks may have second thoughts about Asians....(ie, "victimized" by Asians)...

Is that supposed to be justification for victimizing Asian people? And I don't even consider "being looked down on" as victimization. Your life isn't exactly in physical danger when you're looked down on. However, your life would be in danger if someone was holding a gun or knife in your direction. Like I've said before in my previous post, I have no doubt that many Asian people have racist views. But do you know any black person who have been held at gun-point or knife-point by an Asian person? I personally don't. "Victimized"? That's not going to fly with me. Sorry, but to me, having your life threatened is 100 times worse than being looked down on for your race.

Originally posted by KuroBishounen@Posted on Sep 18 2002, 02:08 AM

...the thing is, are you going to judge on the individual or conform to "society"....??

And like I've also said in my previous post, I do not think that all or most black people are criminals. I think that only a minority of black people are criminals. However, it is a fact that out of the entire pool of criminals in urban areas, a disproportionate percentage of them are black. That means that in the city, the percentage of criminals that are black is bigger than the percentage of the population that is black. Hey, I'm not going to cringe in fear everytime a black guy walks by, but if I'm going to be mugged, then I'm probably going to be mugged by a black guy. Yeah sorry that's a very stereotypical view, but it's been true so far for all my relatives.

Originally posted by KuroBishounen@Posted on Sep 18 2002, 02:08 AM

-I would like to travel to Japan, possibly Hong Kong, Indonesia...Vietnam...(Heck, even Korea!)

(Now, narrow-minded thinking would have me consider: Now, because I am "Black" am I going to be hurt because I am not a White American? It is supposedly believed that "American" means "White")...

Yeah you'll probably encounter racism. But crime rates in Asian cities are alot lower than crime rates in American cities. For that, I doubt you'd be mugged at knife-point or gun-point. But do be careful of your wallet. If people there pick your pocket, it would be because you're a tourist, not because you're black. The fact that you're black would probably intimidate them from doing that to you actually.

Originally posted by KuroBishounen@Posted on Sep 18 2002, 02:08 AM

There was an instance in Japan about an African being beaten to death...

Yeah how often does that happen? On a daily basis, the same way that Asian people are victimized by black people? Hell, I've read that women in Japan love to sleep with black guys. Good luck.

This discussion is going out of scope. My point is that black people and Asian people can't be grouped together and then find a "common enemy" in white people. And unless I'm mistaken, you're trying to argue that black people don't victimize Asian people. Well look, it happens. But like I've said in my previous post, I don't think black people single out Asian people. I am certain that black people victimize themselves more than anybody else.

Just as not every black person is a criminal, not every white person is an oppressive boss. So if you ask me who Asian people's "enemy" is, I'm not going to say white people...

Originally posted by KuroBishounen@Posted on Sep 18 2002, 02:08 AM

Question: I noticed you made a comment about submitting your resume to a Black-owned company like I described above....why did you change your mind?

Actually I edited that out because it seemed kind of out of place with the rest of my post. But yeah if you know of a black-owned company that is hiring programmers, let me know.

deez nuts

09-18-2002, 11:58 AM

It comes down to personal experience. The one time I got mugged was by a white guy. The one time I got jumped was by a bunch of white guys (probably looking for a minority to beat down). When I was in college at Columbia, my apartment was broken into by a white guy. So as for me I'm more suspect of that shifty looking white guy than a black guy. My black friend got jumped by asians. Asian kids used to beat up black kids in Flushing a few years ago. Black kids were beating up on Asian kids in Flushing too.

Like I said, it just comes down to personal experience. I can understand why SWK and DBS are wary of black people, but they've also said it's not a testimony of all blacks. They just choose to be more street smart, if that involves being more cautious around black people, can you blame them? It's called self preservation. It doesn't make either of them racists against blacks or a possible member of some black hating asian group. Neither of those two have given me the impression that they hate blacks.

As for the whole asian and black common cause. I don't really buy into it, sorry. I don't think it's fair to clump all minorities into a whole and say we share the same fight and plight. At times we do, but a good majority of the time we don't. It's just the way I see it.

DaBestSpooner

09-18-2002, 01:32 PM

as usual chasiubao knows how to sum things up.

Hollah!

optiontoo

09-18-2002, 04:04 PM

I think it has to do more with the guy being a dipshit than being caucasian.

I'm pretty sure an Asian guy hitting on a white girl has happened at least once in history. No laws against that.

SunWuKong

09-18-2002, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by professor frink@Sep 18 2002, 07:59 PM
have you ever stopped to consider why blacks are disporpotionately in prison and 'commiting crimes'? its a thing called slavery. and to hello hapa - even though monkey(?) is just representing his asian-american view, it does not have to be at the expense of another person of color, who took obvious offense - i took offense as well. this is hella sad - we attack eachother, blame eachother, and no matter how cliche it's to say now, we never realize that it's the history of white racism, colonialism, and 'superiority', that caused this rift between two communities of COLOR. is that a word that we asians forgot? that we're yellow? because sometimes i feel that the people here on this site believe themselves to be white (uh, oh, something i said). of course the conditions and struggles blacks and asians have suffered aren't the same -but they're hella similiar. geez, langton hughes would be turning over in his grave (god rest his soul) and richard aoki would be fuming now if he heard this riduculous argument.
love, prof. frink
yes i realize that my views may be offensive to some people. but nonetheless those are my views and if you haven't noticed, i've apologized in my previous posts if they seem racist.

let me ask you something, does slavery give black people a free ticket to victimize others (and themselves as well)?

and no, i don't consider asian people and black people in this country to be in the same group such that we (asians and blacks) can use "each other" to refer to the other. i have never denied that white people are the cause of many problems that different groups of minorities have. i wish nothing but for african american communities across the country to raise their economic status, but if you ask me which group presents more of a direct problem for local asian communities in the cities, well i'd have to say black people.

go ask a chinese store owner in chinatown who steals from him more, black people or white people.

and asians and blacks may have had similar struggles in the past, but that no longer applies today. the problems we faced in the past were things such as denial of citizenship, denial of the right to vote, unfair judiciary practices, racist laws, forced segregation, etc etc. these things have largely been eliminated through the civil rights movements. the problems that white people bestow upon asians and blacks today are largely different. i think it's naive to think that we're so alike that we have a "common enemy" in white people.

achtungbaby

09-19-2002, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by professor frink@Sep 18 2002, 04:59 PM
is that a word that we asians forgot? that we're yellow? because sometimes i feel that the people here on this site believe themselves to be white (uh, oh, something i said). of course the conditions and struggles blacks and asians have suffered aren't the same -but they're hella similiar. geez, langton hughes would be turning over in his grave (god rest his soul) and richard aoki would be fuming now if he heard this riduculous argument.
love, prof. frink
Professor Frink, with all due respect, I don't think it's that yw members think they're white, I think many of us are just less easily swayed to the rhetoric we learned in AA 101. Many of us have grown very accustomed and familiar to your argument (and all too accustomed to the labeling and stereotyping that accompanies any questioning of it). I think the point one of the valid points of this thread has been: while white racism has created an atmosphere that can cause minorities to be pitted against one another, the fact remains that minorities must still be held accountable. There's a fine line between challenging an infrastructure that begets white privilege and of absolving all guilt for ourselves.

But of course, this is just more high-minded fluff. You correctly point out that a disproportionate number of blacks are in prison -- often times for crimes that whites would never be incarcerated for. That said, it does nothing for those who are victims of violent crime perpetrated by blacks or any other non-white: "Sorry ma'am, the man who assaulted you for your money did so because he had no choice, blame the white man -- he has all the choices."

We're just simple pawns.

No thanks.

achtungbaby

09-19-2002, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by KuroBishounen@Sep 19 2002, 12:46 AM
Can you post some of the rampant victimizations toward Asians that Blacks have done recently? If not, throughout the years...
Sure. There was this little incident called the "LA Riots" from 1992. A billion dollars of damage in total to the city, for which Korean Americans alone suffered half of. Does anyone remember seeing signs that said, "Black Owned"?

Another statistic? In 1991 alone, seven Korean store owners in New York were murdered by African American assailants. I remember hearing Angela Oh say that 11 Korean store owners were murdered so far in 1993, and it had only been the summer.

Here's a link from someone I pretty-much detest:

http://www.kacdc.org/news_dcviolence_undeclaimed.html

Does this mean I have something against Blacks? I personally don't think so, and it's certainly not something I ever shy away from when the subject comes up, just as I would never want my black friends to skuttle around the issue of racist Korean shop owners -- because these things are real, and they're not going away. I'm not the type of person to play down differences in order to seek consensus; I'd rather deal with our differences first, since our consensus should be implied.

SunWuKong

09-19-2002, 01:22 AM

Originally posted by KuroBishounen@Sep 19 2002, 03:46 AM
SunWuKung,

Believe it or not, slavery happened.....um...2, 3, 400 years ago...(that's n the past)...

There are good and bad Black people...(I believe I said this before)...

And, yes, you do have some that do victimize one another, unfortunately...

Belive it or not, African-Americans don't gather once in a blue moon and say, "Let's see how we are going to victimize the Asian man today--like the White man did us years ago"...or "We went through slavery, so that gives us every right to do whatever we please!"

(You have to forgive me--the fact that my roomies are Vietnamese, who I consider my family....it's kind of baffling)...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you post some of the rampant victimizations toward Asians that Blacks have done recently? If not, throughout the years....

...I'm not talking about just in Chinatown....

Maybe you can add to this list:

Link #1 (http://www.aamovement.net/hatecrime/hatespike1.html)

Link #2 (http://www.asianam.org/anti-asian_assaults_at_cornell.htm)

Vincent Chin and Rodney King (http://www.mindspring.com/~louve/vinchin.html)

Vincent Chin 2 (http://www.itp.berkeley.edu/~asam121/vincent.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, Chausiubo_Boy mentioned in an earlier post, that if you want to be wary of African-Americans as a whole (ie, "street smart" as he put it)...that is your business, of course...

However...a retraction, please...

Note: Probably if you and I were to meet--in Chinatown no less(are you from the Bay Area?)--we would probably have a very "enlightening" conversation...and probably walk away, the best of friends.... (I read some of your posts, and even though I don't agree with everything....you seem to be a decent person)....

However, that's why I'm here....to learn about my Asian "peeps," :rolleyes: and hear about their side of the story....(something that is really lacking in the two communites)....I think...

...Communication.... :)
my comment regarding slavery was towards professor frink, who seemed to me to want to use it as justification for blacks commiting crimes, which is something i disagree with. i think your sarcastic remark about how "African-Americans don't gather once in a blue moon..." would be better used if thrown towards her direction.

let me repeat, for a third time, that i wholly believe that it is only a minority of black people who commit crimes. it seems to me that you are not understanding this. and for examples of black people victimizing asian people, i need to look no further than the experiences of my own relatives. they have been repeatedly robbed, mugged, beat up, etc, by black people, and not ever by white people. and once again for a third time let me point out that i don't think black people single out asian people to target. i think they victimize themselves more than any other racial group. but the fact that they do victimize asian people leads me to think that it's a little ridiculous to think we have such a "common enemy" in white people.

SunWuKong

09-19-2002, 01:31 AM

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Sep 19 2002, 04:14 AM
Originally posted by KuroBishounen@Sep 19 2002, 12:46 AM
Can you post some of the rampant victimizations toward Asians that Blacks have done recently? If not, throughout the years...
Sure. There was this little incident called the "LA Riots" from 1992. A billion dollars of damage in total to the city, for which Korean Americans alone suffered half of. Does anyone remember seeing signs that said, "Black Owned"?

Another statistic? In 1991 alone, seven Korean store owners in New York were murdered by African American assailants. I remember hearing Angela Oh say that 11 Korean store owners were murdered so far in 1993, and it had only been the summer.

Here's a link from someone I pretty-much detest:

http://www.kacdc.org/news_dcviolence_undeclaimed.html

Does this mean I have something against Blacks? I personally don't think so, and it's certainly not something I ever shy away from when the subject comes up, just as I would never want my black friends to skuttle around the issue of racist Korean shop owners -- because these things are real, and they're not going away. I'm not the type of person to play down differences in order to seek consensus; I'd rather deal with our differences first, since our consensus should be implied.
wow michelle malkin actually wrote something good for once. what is the world coming to? i agree with her, it's un-PC or taboo to recognize that minorities are capable of being the victimizer. i think that's part of the reason we don't hear much of it, but talk to the people in the community and you'll hear about it.

DaBestSpooner

09-19-2002, 05:46 AM

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Sep 19 2002, 04:14 AM

Here's a link from someone I pretty-much detest:

http://www.kacdc.org/news_dcviolence_undeclaimed.html

there were several similar incidents like this in new york, in the past 2-3 years, where korean grocery store owners caught shoplifters, which led to boycotts led by al sharpton which resulting in the businesses being shut down and the owners had to either move their business or go back to korea.

deez nuts

09-19-2002, 06:51 AM

You mean all this time I thought Cube's song Black Korea was spitting out venom and fire. You mean it was to bring black and asians closer together?

Hey Asians are guilty of it too.

I think it's kinda one sided how you are scrutinizing DBS and especially SWK's views. I know for a fact, that alot of black people share the same views when it comes to Asians.

One of my closest friend is black. His parent's consider me as close as a son, as their own. I have discussions with his other black friends about issues and he discusses issues with my asian friends. Yes there are similiarities, but if you break it down they're different.

I agree with you KB, we should get to know the person before passing judgement on them, but we aren't always afforded that luxury.

I just wanted to point out that this "wariness" swings both ways. My black friend avoids packs of asians, just as much as an asian might avoid a pack of blacks.

I've spoken to my friend's parents about black and asian issues and they say some blacks view asians as a threat. Hey I know asians that feel the same way about blacks.

And in regards to DBS's statement about Sharpton's protest of Korean grovery store owners. I've experienced first hand. One of my friend's parent's store was a target of the protests and lead to their bankruptcy. The ironic thing is before all the protests they were close to their black customers. My black friend and I would go there sometimes Sunday mornings to help him out because the sheer bulk of the Sunday papers. And from what we've seen, every customer was treated the same. I've even seen them swap korean dishes and soul food dishes. So you tell me what went wrong?

SunWuKong

09-19-2002, 08:01 AM

i think korean or asian store owners definitely need to be more polite to black people, but this crap about them being "bloodsuckers" to black communities is just dumb. if a korean person opens something like a liquor store in a black neighborhood, it's because there's demand there for liquor. he doesn't create the demand. in fact he'd be out of business if nobody or hardly anybody drinks. so don't blame the guy that there are drunks in the neighborhood. nobody is forcing anybody to buy liquor.

achtungbaby

09-19-2002, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Sep 19 2002, 06:51 AM
You mean all this time I thought Cube's song Black Korea was spitting out venom and fire. You mean it was to bring black and asians closer together?

Hey Asians are guilty of it too.

I think it's kinda one sided how you are scrutinizing DBS and especially SWK's views. I know for a fact, that alot of black people share the same views when it comes to Asians.

One of my closest friend is black. His parent's consider me as close as a son, as their own. I have discussions with his other black friends about issues and he discusses issues with my asian friends. Yes there are similiarities, but if you break it down they're different.

I agree with you KB, we should get to know the person before passing judgement on them, but we aren't always afforded that luxury.

I just wanted to point out that this "wariness" swings both ways. My black friend avoids packs of asians, just as much as an asian might avoid a pack of blacks.

I've spoken to my friend's parents about black and asian issues and they say some blacks view asians as a threat. Hey I know asians that feel the same way about blacks.

And in regards to DBS's statement about Sharpton's protest of Korean grovery store owners. I've experienced first hand. One of my friend's parent's store was a target of the protests and lead to their bankruptcy. The ironic thing is before all the protests they were close to their black customers. My black friend and I would go there sometimes Sunday mornings to help him out because the sheer bulk of the Sunday papers. And from what we've seen, every customer was treated the same. I've even seen them swap korean dishes and soul food dishes. So you tell me what went wrong?
Repeat of what DBS said: leave it to bunboy to clarify the level-headed perspective on things:)

To Ice Cube's credit, he did later apologize for Black Korea, particularly to the National Korean Grocers Association, I believe, since the song had such a detrimental effect on their constituents -- and his apology was criticized by his own community.

achtungbaby

09-19-2002, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 19 2002, 08:01 AM
i think korean or asian store owners definitely need to be more polite to black people, but this crap about them being "bloodsuckers" to black communities is just dumb. if a korean person opens something like a liquor store in a black neighborhood, it's because there's demand there for liquor. he doesn't create the demand. in fact he'd be out of business if nobody or hardly anybody drinks. so don't blame the guy that there are drunks in the neighborhood. nobody is forcing anybody to buy liquor.
I actually used to be very critical of Korean liquor store owners who opened up shop in the more depressed areas of Los Angeles, particularly South-Central LA. You can argue that it's the same thing with drug dealers -- they don't create the demand, they merely supply it, and alcohol, to such a poor community, is almost the same thing as a drug. If I was black, I'd want to see less liquor stores too: they can be a blight on the community, and often times are hubs for nearby drug peddaling and prostitution.

That's if I was a moralist (which I was before, I guess).

The realist side to me says something similiar to what DBS said: "You bring up we must think "why", there shouldnt be a why." The blame shouldn't go solely to Korean liquor store owners. Who approves their liquor and business licenses to operate in that area? Unfortunately, instead of taking a less absolute position on things, immediately after the Riots, African American activists lobbied the state legislature hard to pass a bill that prevent store owners who'd had their store burned down from even reopening it. Instead, they were forced to open other types of businesses -- laundrymats, I think were the preferred choice by lawmakers.

It was about this time when I started to realize that Asian Americans had such little power in our country, and I hated it.

DaBestSpooner

09-19-2002, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Sep 19 2002, 01:39 PM
Unfortunately, instead of taking a less absolute position on things, immediately after the Riots, African American activists lobbied the state legislature hard to pass a bill that prevent store owners who'd had their store burned down from even reopening it. Instead, they were forced to open other types of businesses -- laundrymats, I think were the preferred choice by lawmakers.

It was about this time when I started to realize that Asian Americans had such little power in our country, and I hated it.
talk about 2 kicks to the groin while your down

Reinhard H.

09-19-2002, 12:12 PM

I enjoyed SunWuKungs comments, finally an Asian male who doesn't seem to have a problem with white guys. I never understood why so many young Asian Americans seem to blame us for all their problems.

kimpossible

09-19-2002, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by KuroBishounen@Sep 19 2002, 12:46 AM

(You have to forgive me--the fact that my roomies are Vietnamese, who I consider my family....it's kind of baffling)...

what's so baffling?

SunWuKong

09-19-2002, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by Reinhard H.@Sep 19 2002, 03:12 PM
I enjoyed SunWuKungs comments, finally an Asian male who doesn't seem to have a problem with white guys. I never understood why so many young Asian Americans seem to blame us for all their problems.
eh... well i wouldn't say i have no problem with white guys. well i take each person on an individual basis so it's kind of inaccurate to say i have a problem with "white guys" or "black guys". at any rate, the problems i have with white guys are alot more oft-happening than the problems i may have with black guys, but the thing is that the problems with white guys are alot less life-threatening. mostly the problems with white guys is usually that sometimes they can be annoying, in an unintentional way.

kimpossible

09-19-2002, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by Reinhard H.@Sep 19 2002, 12:12 PM
I enjoyed SunWuKungs comments, finally an Asian male who doesn't seem to have a problem with white guys. I never understood why so many young Asian Americans seem to blame us for all their problems.
Most Asian guys don't have a problem with white guys. A vast majority of my husband's friends are white. He just doesn't want them in his family, his personal business, or sometimes even his culture and country (he considers himself Taiwanese). But I can safely say that he falls into line with what Sun Wu-kung, Chasiubao_boy and achtungbaby say... no images of evil white oppressors haunts him or makes him feel part of a pan-ethnic minority community.

All depends on the guy for him. White, black or otherwise.

I do think it is a bit unfair to say that young Asian Americans blame white guys for all their problems. Sun Wu-kung already laundry listed a series of legitimate issues Asians face in America, so I'm not going to repeat it.

edit: Ha! I must've posted as the same time as you MK :D

SunWuKong

09-19-2002, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by Morientes@Sep 19 2002, 04:02 PM
perhaps swk was referring to himself where he feels content with dating women of asian descent?
no, what i have been saying in this thread has had nothing to do with my personal dating habits or consequences thereof.

kimpossible

09-19-2002, 02:22 PM

Well, KB, I'm going to make this pretty direct because overall you seem to be a pretty normal guy. As much as I can tell over the internet.

And before I go into what might seem like a bitchfest, I wanted to say thank you for your activity in the hapa forum. Good to have more activity. Back to ranting.

You feel kinship with an Asian guy and his family; wonderful. I think any bonds that strong are a positive testament to both yours and their character. However, my sense is that you seem to be interpreting that as an all access pass to Asian culture as a whole. From my point of view, as a hapa, as an Asian-American, as the wife of an Asian, take your pick -- but you don't seem to be listening to the Asian men who are have cited cultural phenomena from their perspective. You are arguing for them to conform to American political correctness.

I'm married to a Chinese guy - as in the ink on his citizenship was still wet when we met. I have a Chinese name, I speak, understand, read/write some Mandarin, I cook Chinese food that few Chinese girls my age can and I take my responsibilities as the wife of the firstborn/only son seriously. None of this makes me Chinese. I'm a foreigner. I wasn't just kind of considered family, I am family and I'm still a foreigner. No amount of doing Chinese stuff, or even being sinofied, is going to make me Chinese. And I don't have a lot of problem with it. My husband may not be a prince according to American politically correct standards, and he may even be chauvinistic and racist to a certain extent, but I respect his opinion as an Asian male and I try my best to understand what social factors affect him. That usually involves listening, learning and admitting I'm wrong if that's the case.

If the guys are saying they don't feel that they belong to the Non-White Brotherhood of America - I'm going to take their word for it. So should you.

So as one person who is 'part' of an Asian family to another, and a person who is also Asian at least in part, it doesn't grant you the all-access no questions asked passport to all Asians.

If you really plan on going to Asia, I would jettison the notion of American political correctness and pan-ethnic minority status. I would also forget about thinking having an Asian friend will mean much to anyone in Asia. I fully expect you to prolly tell me to shove it where the sun don't shine, but instead of arguing with the Asian guys here, you should use their openness and availability to learn all you can about what realities working and living in Asia, or an Asian culture await you.

That is a powerful tool you could harness to your advantage. You could forge relationships and contacts here that would serve you abroad if you think your future is in Asia.

If you want to, catch me on my MSN messenger. We can take this offline on the premise of having a constructive conversation. Check me out on my profile. The info should be there.

SunWuKong

09-19-2002, 02:53 PM

why is it that everytime you mention your ability to cook chinese dishes, i feel like i want to re-evaluate what i might want in a future wife?

Hito

09-19-2002, 04:27 PM

Wow this topic has taken off since i last visited.

I will have to re read all the subsaquent postings to digest all that has been said, but a few points i wanted to touch on is a few of you saying that peoples of color have not had similar experiences here in the US or they may have once been similar but now they are not.

I'd like to examine that for just a second.
Blacks in america were enslaved.
THe first Asians to be brought here were enslaved
And the ones who came voulinterily were soon put into forced labor.
When the euroPeon first came to meso-america he enslaved the people he found there.
These experiences are dissimilar only in that everyone but blacks were not subjected to generational slavery.

Afrikan, Asian, and Latino women have been raped by europeons without consiquence, because they have been mischzarized as having loose morals.

Men of color have been killed for not only dating, just looking as white women

Tell me again how our experiences are all that diffrent again?

deez nuts

09-19-2002, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 19 2002, 07:27 PM
Wow this topic has taken off since i last visited.

I will have to re read all the subsaquent postings to digest all that has been said, but a few points i wanted to touch on is a few of you saying that peoples of color have not had similar experiences here in the US or they may have once been similar but now they are not.

I'd like to examine that for just a second.
Blacks in america were enslaved.
THe first Asians to be brought here were enslaved
And the ones who came voulinterily were soon put into forced labor.
When the euroPeon first came to meso-america he enslaved the people he found there.
These experiences are dissimilar only in that everyone but blacks were not subjected to generational slavery.

Afrikan, Asian, and Latino women have been raped by europeons without consiquence, because they have been mischzarized as having loose morals.

Men of color have been killed for not only dating, just looking as white women

Tell me again how our experiences are all that diffrent again?
Wasssup Hito, long time no see.

Bro, I'm gonna have to disagree with you. Just because we came over as coolies and blacks came over as slaves, that doesn't automatically make us similiar. Our paths may have crossed, but when it relates to issues of today or sometimes yesterday, we have many differences in obstacles and issues we face.

Ok, your example of minority women being raped by the white man. So, we as minorities never raped each other's women? Or white man killing colored folks for dating a white girl. I've dated a black woman, one of my longest relationships (gah what a bod). I gotten stares from black people all the time. Hell bro, I got chased down by some of the Q-dog <spelling?>fraternity brothers. And I'm sure asian guys have given black guys the "stare" when they are with an asian women and chased them down, as I have been.

Whether you believe our (when I say our, I mean issues between minorities) stem because of the white man or as I choose to believe that there are ignorant fucks in every race who cannot see past the color line.

SunWuKong

09-19-2002, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 19 2002, 07:27 PM
Wow this topic has taken off since i last visited.

I will have to re read all the subsaquent postings to digest all that has been said, but a few points i wanted to touch on is a few of you saying that peoples of color have not had similar experiences here in the US or they may have once been similar but now they are not.

I'd like to examine that for just a second.
Blacks in america were enslaved.
THe first Asians to be brought here were enslaved
And the ones who came voulinterily were soon put into forced labor.
When the euroPeon first came to meso-america he enslaved the people he found there.
These experiences are dissimilar only in that everyone but blacks were not subjected to generational slavery.

Afrikan, Asian, and Latino women have been raped by europeons without consiquence, because they have been mischzarized as having loose morals.

Men of color have been killed for not only dating, just looking as white women

Tell me again how our experiences are all that diffrent again?
... but i (or we) have already pointed out that while our struggles may have been historically very similar, it is no longer very similar... and you've only raised experiences in the past, and nothing that has happened after the civil rights movements. i am not sure how you've illustrated that our current struggles are similar, like you seem to have thought to have illustrated.

even those seemingly "similar" struggles that we have are very different. the effects of black stereotypes and asian stereotypes are very different. and while i agree that we have very similar struggles with hollywood, however, i think in recent years blacks have pretty much gained an "upper hand" through the popularizing of hip-hop culture. i don't see any suburban white kids trying to act like they're asian and calling each other chink. hell even alot of asian kids try to act like they're black.

deez nuts

09-19-2002, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 19 2002, 09:23 PM
hell even alot of asian kids try to act like they're black.
it's the neighborhood i grew up in!

achtungbaby

09-19-2002, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Sep 19 2002, 06:25 PM
it's the neighborhood i grew up in!
Holla!

kimpossible

09-19-2002, 08:58 PM

KB and I have been talking all of this in a little more depth off the board. It went well (I think).

And you can all go to hell about me being a mother hen.

Hito

09-19-2002, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Sep 19 2002, 09:58 PM
KB and I have been talking all of this in a little more depth off the board. It went well (I think).

And you can all go to hell about me being a mother hen.
How about a mother cow?
http://www.darkervisions.com/bp/cow_tiny.gif

Hito

09-19-2002, 09:52 PM

... but i (or we) have already pointed out that while our struggles may have been historically very similar, it is no longer very similar... and you've only raised experiences in the past, and nothing that has happened after the civil rights movements. i am not sure how you've illustrated that our current struggles are similar, like you seem to have thought to have illustrated.

even those seemingly "similar" struggles that we have are very different. the effects of black stereotypes and asian stereotypes are very different. and while i agree that we have very similar struggles with hollywood, however, i think in recent years blacks have pretty much gained an "upper hand" through the popularizing of hip-hop culture. i don't see any suburban white kids trying to act like they're asian and calling each other chink. hell even alot of asian kids try to act like they're black.

Edited by SunWuKung - Sep 19 2002, 09:24 PM

Poverty?
Refusal of work/servaces based on the color of our skin?
Being pulled over by cops when you are in a nice car in the wrong part of town?
And Inequity in the justice system is a problem that we all face isnt it?
Oh and as you say a lack of positive images in the popular media...

kimpossible

09-20-2002, 05:28 PM

deez nuts

09-20-2002, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by KuroBishounen@Sep 20 2002, 08:26 PM
KB and I have been talking all of this in a little more depth off the board. It went well (I think).

And you can all go to hell about me being a mother hen.

No, it went well, Hello_Hapa...

My apologies to SunWuKung(and any one else) if I offended in some of my previous comments...

...As I mentioned before, some views here I haven't heard before, and I find it intriguing...so you have to excuse me if I am "getting into the jist of things"... :)
No apologies towards me needed on my part, you didn't offend me. It's all good.

SunWuKong

09-20-2002, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by Hito@Sep 20 2002, 12:52 AM
Poverty?
Refusal of work/servaces based on the color of our skin?
Being pulled over by cops when you are in a nice car in the wrong part of town?
And Inequity in the justice system is a problem that we all face isnt it?
Oh and as you say a lack of positive images in the popular media...
on the average, asian americans have a higher percentage of success rates than white americans and certainly black americans. of those asian americans that are in poverty, i personally do not think that it's because "the white man is trying to keep us down". they are most likely immigrants who have found it difficult to function well within american society.

i don't believe asian americans face a problem with refusal of work. as for refusal of service, i doubt that asian americans face it as much as african americans. but i do think that asian people and black people, as well as women in general, face a similar problem in the glass ceiling.

i will also concede that when it comes to hate crimes, asian americans face the same possible inequality in the justice system as african americans.

as for portrayal in popular media, the effects of black stereotypes and asian stereotypes are vastly different. black men are portrayed as vigorous or criminals, while asian men are desexualized or portrayed as nerds. even as black women are now finally portrayed as sexually desirable in mainstream media, asian men continue to be desexualized. black people have been dominating mainstream music with the popularization of hip-hop. asian people face a much more difficult battle ahead in mainstream media. in my opinion, black people have already half won their battle with mainstream media. and asian people are not criminalized by mainstream media. if anything, people would think that we are quiet law abiding citizens if they buy into asian stereotypes.

i never said there are no similar problems. but do black people have language issues? immigration issues? being actually held back by incorrect implementation of affirmative action? being thought of as foreigners and novices of the english language?

just take a look around this site, what issues do the asian people around here talk about? is it poverty? refusal of work/service? most of it has to do with identity issues of being asian in this country, with language issues, reconciliating our asian cultural values with our american cultural values, etc etc.