Larry Bird says the NBA needs more white guys

[Faithless]

But was he being racist or realistic about white America?

Fox report (http://www.foxsports.com/content/view?contentId=2475988)
Larry Bird says he knows what the NBA needs — more white superstars. The Hall of Famer made the remark and more during a television interview which will air prior to Game 3 of the NBA Finals on Thursday.

Bird, who is currently the Indiana Pacers' president of basketball operations, says during the interview that while the league will forever be dominated by black athletes, the presence of more star players who are white would appeal to a fan base which Bird feels is predominantly white.
"You know when I played, you had me and Kevin (McHale) and some others throughout the league." Bird said. "I think it's good for a fan base because as we all know the majority of the fans are white America.

"And if you just had a couple of white guys in there, you might get them a little excited. But it is a black man's game, and it will be forever. I mean, the greatest athletes in the world are African-American."

The interview also included LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony and Magic Johnson, who besides helping Bird inject life into the league in the 1980s, also seemed to agree with Bird.

"We need some more LB's, Larry Birds," Magic said. Larry Bird, you see, can go into any neighborhood. When you say 'Larry Bird,' black people know who he is, Hispanics, whites, and they give him the respect."

Bird went on to say that, as a player, he was offended when white players attempted to guard him.

[TB4000]

But was he being racist or realistic about white America?

Fox report (http://www.foxsports.com/content/view?contentId=2475988)
See, I'm not 100% sure what to make of this, because I have been a huge fan of Bird my entire life...I feel he's one of the greats, more than worthy to be alongside Michael, Magic, Wilt, and the rest. I have never gotten the inkling that he was a racist individual, and I'm hoping that what he said was just due to naivete on his part, but it would seem like he would know better than that. I got mixed feelings about this one.

[Faithless]

At this point, it just sounds like the well-meaning ramblings of someone inarticulate on the subject of the realities of race.

In someways, Bird's comments sound like "Al Campanis/Jimmy the Greek", but in someways it sounds like he's trying to make a realistic assessment of the desires of white fans of the NBA.

I think he's misguided, though, because there are plenty of good playing whites. Maybe, arrogantly, he don't think the current white players are as good as he was.

[VV o n g B a]

I think he's misguided, though, because there are plenty of good playing whites. Maybe, arrogantly, he don't think the current white players are as good as he was.
i think so too. there are lots of eastern european players that are pretty good right? or does he not consider them "white?"

[deez nuts]

in the interview, bird says he wanted more white american basketball superstars since basketball orginated in america. he doesn't consider the white european players the same as white american players.

[Kuchana]

well tell the white american players to get better if they want to be up to par with the other players in the game.

[Faithless]

i think so too. there are lots of eastern european players that are pretty good right? or does he not consider them "white?"
He probably doesn't. And it might be that a lot of other whites in America don't either:
.
Bill Simmons: On the European thing - I always just think of them as Europeans. It's a weird thing.
.
Ralph Wiley: A good one for the Sports Guy. He's written in the past of European players that they are not "real white guys." Not knowing if that was tongue-in-cheek, I wondered about that then. It's like people pseduo-wringing their hands about a lack of "American-born" blacks in baseball's big leagues. Frankly, if I see Andruw Jones playing ball, I don't think, "Aw, he's from Curacao, he doesn't really count." It's really the purity of the player. If he can play, he can play regardless. As to whether the white fan base identifies more with black Americans than White Europeans, I don't think there is a general statement you can make. The Lakers have become like the Yankees, or Notre Dame football or the Dallas Cowboys used to be -- and they are the first dynastic team to have four black Americans out front, deservedly so or not. And they were kind of accepted as a universally loved/hated iconic team. But then here comes Luke Walton. You can't make a Luke Walton overnight. You can't wish up on one. It's takes just as much hard work to get into pro hoopl as it does to get into Harvard law school. Be careful of what you ask for, either way. Great question: did Darko's perceived whiteness contribute to the Puistons' choice? I think, in the end, it was a happy coincidence, marketing wise. The Pistons had Tayshaun, perceived as "black," but when you look at him, what do you see? A light-skinned fellow who can play. So they didn't need 'Melo.
ESPN chat transcript (http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=5412)

[Hiroshi2]

I think Larry Bird just wants to see more white players in the NBA. Really, I think that's all there is to it.



Black Americans are the best athletes in the world because when they brought the slaves over from Africa they picked the biggest and the strongest men from over there. And then they worked their asses off in the cotton fields. So it's only natural.



I thought about it the other day watching Luke Walton play for the Lakers in the Finals. How many "regular" white guys, regular, American white guys do you see in the league? You could probably count them on your ten fingers. And no, Jason Kidd does not count.


Most Caucasians in the NBA nowadays are European transplants. And I don't think most white Americans really identify with that, and maybe that's part of the point Bird was trying to make. Maybe it's not *shrugs*

[krome]

Well, every race is under-repped in various arenas - so what's the big deal about wanting to see it more equalized - even if you know it never will be? Do we need affirmative action here?

The underlying fact is also that racial differences are statistically more than just skin-deep, and "race" is more than just a social construct. You have a prototypical lanky black superstar (Dr. J, MJ, Kobe, VC, KG, Lebron, etc etc) coming along nearly every year or more. And all coming from a US base population of around 6-7% (BMs). That's an incredibly high frequency. It's obvious there is a genetic component here.

Well, I'm just waiting for the Chinese Junior team to grow up - you got 7'rs (Yi JianLian) and a quick 6'1" PG w/a ~40" vert (Chen JiangHua), etc. Sure, their coaching sux *ss, but at least there's some potential there...

[Faithless]

A portion of the imfamous Bird statement:

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/sports/8884631.htm
"Well, I think so," Bird says. "You know, when I played you had me and Kevin (McHale) and some others throughout the league. I think it's good for a fan base because, as we all know, the majority of the fans are white America. And if you just had a couple of white guys in there, you might get them a little excited.

"But it is a black man's game, and it will be forever. I mean, the greatest athletes in the world are African-Americans."
I wonder if Larry realizes why it is such a black man's game.

[younggiftedandblack]

Black Americans are the best athletes in the world because when they brought the slaves over from Africa they picked the biggest and the strongest men from over there. And then they worked their asses off in the cotton fields. So it's only natural.

And all this time I thought it was because they worked hard to achieve success :rolleyes:

BOT Birds right the NBA does need more white superstars not just players.

[deez nuts]

the white people want more white superstars in the nba. the blacks want more upper management types in the front office.

solution: let michael jordan run the recently talked about new nba expansion team in vegas. staff it with black upper management types and draft white players.

[krome]

And all this time I thought it was because they worked hard to achieve success :rolleyes:
Do you really believe that? It takes more than just hard work to achieve ELITE level success in any field. You have to have the natural ability as well.

Hard work will get you "pretty good," but it won't make you great.

There are many Leaguer's who didn't even pick up a basketball until very late - like Hakeem Olajuwon and Dennis Rodman. However, they had the natural physiques and raw ability to compensate for lack of years of gym time. Meanwhile, your average high school baller who lived on courts cannot cut it in college, much less the NBA...

Honestly, let's drop the PC rhetoric people and just speak with some common sense here.

[Faithless]

However, they had the natural physiques and raw ability to compensate for lack of years of gym time. Meanwhile, your average high school baller who lived on courts cannot cut it in college, much less the NBA...
Define "natural ability". I'm not sure what that means.

Lebron James is this rookie who went from high school to the NBA.

The kid had skills, I think, more than natural ability.

[TB4000]

I wanna see more black guys in hockey. It's just overwhelmingly white, I feel. :rolleyes: And no more slapping that black puck around.

[Cipherous]

Do you really believe that? It takes more than just hard work to achieve ELITE level success in any field. You have to have the natural ability as well.

Hard work will get you "pretty good," but it won't make you great.

There are many Leaguer's who didn't even pick up a basketball until very late - like Hakeem Olajuwon and Dennis Rodman. However, they had the natural physiques and raw ability to compensate for lack of years of gym time. Meanwhile, your average high school baller who lived on courts cannot cut it in college, much less the NBA...

Honestly, let's drop the PC rhetoric people and just speak with some common sense here.actually Hakeem played for the university of Texas (or houston university or whatever university in Texas) and took his team to the NCAA championship and Rodman, played for college and were drafted out of college as well.

I would hardly call that picking up basketball late in life.

[yoMAMA]

all the best ballers are black.

what's the big deal?

i mean...who wants to see more slow white guys that can't jump?

;)

[krome]

actually Hakeem played for the university of Texas (or houston university or whatever university in Texas) and took his team to the NCAA championship and Rodman, played for college and were drafted out of college as well.

I would hardly call that picking up basketball late in life.
Uh, I would call walk-on collegiate ball pretty damn late!!! Helloooo? How much "later" can you get? Walk-on the NBA? :biggrin: :rolleyes:

I mean, you must have some raw natural potential to even make a collegiate squad over all these other kids who have been playing since Jr. High or little school!

Look, when you got some 6'7" kid with a 40" vert - I mean I'm sorry - but that is largely genetically-derived and you CAN'T TEACH THAT! You can't teach height - or maximum athletic hops. There's a genetic ceiling for all that. Deuuurrr!

And all these black high school NBArs are also evidence that natural (genetics-based) advantages may supercede an additional 4 years of playing experience.

[kurei kun]

just something interesting

brad miller was the only white american in the last all star game (j-kidd is half black i believe)

and the year before that, brad miller and steve nash

[ellsworth81]

those guys arent that "lanky" compared to a majority of NBA players.

Well, every race is under-repped in various arenas - so what's the big deal about wanting to see it more equalized - even if you know it never will be? Do we need affirmative action here?

The underlying fact is also that racial differences are statistically more than just skin-deep, and "race" is more than just a social construct. You have a prototypical lanky black superstar (Dr. J, MJ, Kobe, VC, KG, Lebron, etc etc) coming along nearly every year or more. And all coming from a US base population of around 6-7% (BMs). That's an incredibly high frequency. It's obvious there is a genetic component here.

Well, I'm just waiting for the Chinese Junior team to grow up - you got 7'rs (Yi JianLian) and a quick 6'1" PG w/a ~40" vert (Chen JiangHua), etc. Sure, their coaching sux *ss, but at least there's some potential there...

[DaBestSpooner]

Do you really believe that? It takes more than just hard work to achieve ELITE level success in any field. You have to have the natural ability as well.

Hard work will get you "pretty good," but it won't make you great.

There are many Leaguer's who didn't even pick up a basketball until very late - like Hakeem Olajuwon and Dennis Rodman. However, they had the natural physiques and raw ability to compensate for lack of years of gym time. Meanwhile, your average high school baller who lived on courts cannot cut it in college, much less the NBA...

Honestly, let's drop the PC rhetoric people and just speak with some common sense here.


I think you mean Mutumbo, he was a pre med or bio major, cant remember, he never played ball until he was discovered soph year at Georgetown when a coach convinced him to join the team.

[Faithless]

I wanna see more black guys in hockey. It's just overwhelmingly white, I feel. :rolleyes: And no more slapping that black puck around.
It's going to be tough because there's so much natural ability amongst the white players to contend with. :biggrin: :rolleyes:

[tommyhtown]

actually Hakeem played for the university of Texas (or houston university or whatever university in Texas) and took his team to the NCAA championship and Rodman, played for college and were drafted out of college as well.


My alma mater, University of Houston. He picked up the game when he was in high school and war recruited out of Nigeria for a basketball scholarship to Houston.

[Faithless]

My alma mater, University of Houston. He picked up the game when he was in high school and war recruited out of Nigeria for a basketball scholarship to Houston.
So, does this live with the law of "natural ability"?

[tommyhtown]

So, does this live with the law of "natural ability"?

It depends on your definition of "natural ability." Hakeem didn't have great vertical leap. He was actually shorter than his peers -- the Admiral, Shaq, Patrick. What he had was great footwork that he claimed he got it from playing soccer.

[SunWuKong]

Bird went on to say that, as a player, he was offended when white players attempted to guard him.


what the hell...?

[mr. x]

what the hell...?
im wondering too

did he mean "oh yeah they stick the token white guy to defend the token white guy, how subtle"

or

"white guys (cept me) just cant PLAY, gimme an uberblack instead"

[SunWuKong]

im wondering too

did he mean "oh yeah they stick the token white guy to defend the token white guy, how subtle"

or

"white guys (cept me) just cant PLAY, gimme an uberblack instead"


maybe he meant "hey, you're white, you should just let me have the shot because we're both white and we got to help each other out."

[Faithless]

It depends on your definition of "natural ability." Hakeem didn't have great vertical leap. He was actually shorter than his peers -- the Admiral, Shaq, Patrick. What he had was great footwork that he claimed he got it from playing soccer.
Natural ability was Krome's term.

.
im wondering too

did he mean "oh yeah they stick the token white guy to defend the token white guy, how subtle"
I think he meant that.

Like, the opposition has many blacks, and they have this white guy guard him.

[rakovlam]

Larry Bird says the NBA needs more white guys

Switch Larry Bird with Yao Ming and switch white with Asian... we wouldn't be having this discussion. But that's not the point.

About the comment about white defenders, I for one can't name any good white defenders. Does Dirk Nowizski (7-1) play defense? No. Have you seen Peja shut anyone down lately? No. Does the thought of matching up against Wally Szczerbiak or Jason Williams intimidate any scorer? No. But stick Ron Artest or Bruce Bowen on someone, and boom! There goes your shooting percentage. I can say that there are no good white players who play good defense. And being Shawn Bradley and getting 3 blocks a game isn't defense, that's being 7-6. If I were one of the best players in the league leading the Celtics to multiple championships, I'd be disrespected too.

Does the NBA need more white players? Not really. They need better players, as in people who have actually played basketball before and not some 7-0 kid from Eastern Europe.

Seeing that the future of Caucasian American players consisting of Nick Collison and a bunch of Luke's, I'd worry a little too. Other than changing one's scouting habits, the trend of more blacks and more foreign players isn't going to change in the near future.

[Hiroshi2]

Yeah and look how everybody's making a big deal out of Luke Walton. The man's only put up a handful of points, now is everybody making a big deal of out of his performance because he's the son of a former NBA star, or because he's white. I think it's both, but the latter more than the former.

[Chester]

I think you mean Mutumbo, he was a pre med or bio major, cant remember, he never played ball until he was discovered soph year at Georgetown when a coach convinced him to join the team. He hadn't played basketball prior to going to Georgetown, but he was specifically recruited to go to Georgetown by John Thompson in order to play basketball. He did not simply go to Georgetown as a standard academic student who was serendipitously discovered by Thompson. He was a project all along.

On Larry Bird...

He's right. People like to see people who they feel they can identify with. The sad fact of the matter is that people identify more with people who look like them. Bird wasn't making the case that this is right or desirable, but simply that this is the case, and that, should the NBA cease to have significant white American players, this will slowly alienate white American fans. And given that whites are still the majority in America, this will hurt the general appeal of the NBA.

A lot of people have countered Birds remarks with "well what about hockey? Don't they need something other than white players?" The answer is yes. The lack of non-white players in the NHL is something that the NHL will need to overcome if it's going to broaden the appeal of their sport. There's a reason why basketball is a huge part of the black urban zeitgeist while hockey doesn't even register a mention. If basketball increasingly becomes "a black man's game," then the reverse may occur.

Of course race matters. It's not racist to acknowledge this. In fact, it's foolish to deny this. Just watch crowds cheer, inordinately loudly, for the small accomplishments of marginally-skilled white players. Just watch as both fans and the press are always eager to anoint the next Great White Hope.

Just read these boards and look at how much discussion on the NBA has been promoted by the entrance of Yao Ming.

Of course race matters. It shouldn't, but that's not what Bird was saying.

[younggiftedandblack]

Do you really believe that? It takes more than just hard work to achieve ELITE level success in any field. You have to have the natural ability as well.

Hard work will get you "pretty good," but it won't make you great.

There are many Leaguer's who didn't even pick up a basketball until very late - like Hakeem Olajuwon and Dennis Rodman. However, they had the natural physiques and raw ability to compensate for lack of years of gym time. Meanwhile, your average high school baller who lived on courts cannot cut it in college, much less the NBA...

Honestly, let's drop the PC rhetoric people and just speak with some common sense here.

He didn't name any specific players he generalized and said blacks in general. That in and of itself is an insult. It's the same thing Jimmy the Greek said and was fired for.

[krome]

It depends on your definition of "natural ability." Hakeem didn't have great vertical leap. He was actually shorter than his peers -- the Admiral, Shaq, Patrick. What he had was great footwork that he claimed he got it from playing soccer.
Well, at 7', Hakeem didn't need a huge vert. He was taller than almost everyone else in the League. However, I really don't know what his vert was - do you? His relied on footwork and little "shake 'n bake" jumpers, anyways. If he was shorter, that wouldn't have worked, though. You need height, hops or both.

Well, I should have said "natural attributes" - height being a key one for basketball. Then, muscle quickness - which translates into both lateral movement and vertical jump ceiling. These things can't be taught, sorry.

Now, you say Hakeem didn't start playing b-ball till hi-skool - and yet was already internationally recruited to UH on a scholarship for college? Just think of all the kids he beat out with a decade more PT than him. And then quickly became an NBA superstar? Yes, I think natural attributes had a h*lla LOT to do with making that all possible.

Luke Walton is not a superstar - but he is a consistent shooter good for rackin' up a few points in trash time.

There are a few underrated good white defenders - one comes to mind but I can't remember his name - a white KG-type. I think he's foreign, though.

Look, everyone applauds when Tiger "diversified" golf or anytime blacks make inroads into "white" sports - so why not vice-versa with the NBA? Aren't we just striving for equal representation?

ygb - Well, a generalization is only a generalization. Exceptions are always a rule to that. Nothing more, nothing less. Yes, there are shytty Black ballers, and good non-Black ones, too. I'm sure Larry "Great White Hope" Bird knows that - he's living proof. So, exceptions don't necessarily disprove a generalization - but are part-n-parcel with them. Although, when talking about race publicly - it may need to be explicitly clarified since the topic is always so damned sensitive.

Also, it's not to say these players are all good (genetically + skills) b/c they're Black. But, simply that statistically, there are more Black players that are this good (genetically + skills).

Does anyone have stats on vertical leap and race? I'd be interested to see those results.

[Cipherous]

Uh, I would call walk-on collegiate ball pretty damn late!!! Helloooo? How much "later" can you get? Walk-on the NBA? :biggrin: :rolleyes:

I mean, you must have some raw natural potential to even make a collegiate squad over all these other kids who have been playing since Jr. High or little school!

Look, when you got some 6'7" kid with a 40" vert - I mean I'm sorry - but that is largely genetically-derived and you CAN'T TEACH THAT! You can't teach height - or maximum athletic hops. There's a genetic ceiling for all that. Deuuurrr!

And all these black high school NBArs are also evidence that natural (genetics-based) advantages may supercede an additional 4 years of playing experience.I am a huge Rockets fan,

and one thing I do know is that Hakeem was polished when he came out of college (the dude did not rely on his "natural ability"). Now, I am not denying he was athletic but the dude had some crazy footwork (quite possibily the best foot work ever with the exception of Mchale). If you watched some of the old rocket's games, you'd know that Hakeem didn't rely on solely his athleticism to dominate, he used his finesse game much like Yao Ming does.

I am sorry but how late can you get rather than high school? you call that late? alot of the varsity players I know didn't start til high school when they started to realize their height.

[krome]

^ Well, some people are more naturally coordinated than others. Without a doubt. That certainly qualifies as a natural athletic ability too. The fact that Hakeem accelerated in his B-ball skills so fast thru college is only more testament to his natural athleticism.

Hakeem had natural coordination plus height - again - both natural attributes.

Yes, we are all combos of nature and nurture - but nurture alone ain't gonna get you in the League - which is the creme-de-la-creme. You better have a healthy dose of natural potential to work with to reach that stratospheric level. Like height - which as you noted - chooses kids, not vice-versa. People with natural aptitudes for something are going to then gravitate towards it. Water seeks its own level. That's all my point is.

MJ was 6'6" with a ~43" vertical. Sorry, but you can't teach that. Funny how I've made this point repeatedly - yet no one counters it. Instead, everyone tries to disprove me with other weak arguments.

[Faithless]

MJ was 6'6" with a ~43" vertical. Sorry, but you can't teach that. Funny how I've made this point repeatedly - yet no one counters it. Instead, everyone tries to disprove me with other weak arguments.
At one point did it get to 43 inches?

Had always this lengthy vertical leap -- say from the time he was in junior high?

Or is possible that through conditioning he gradually got there?

I think MJ has been interviewed and stated it was all hardwork to get to that stage.

Look at the difference before and after retirement. Not the same player.

[deez nuts]

bird was kinda right in saying that it bothered him when they sent a white guy to guard him.

in high school whether it be a pick up game or in my high school games, it would piss me off too when a white guy would guard me.

but, what's worse is those pick up games where you encounter a black guy that thinks he was born with a naturally ability to play cuz he's black. he doesn't do anything spectacular in the game. all he does is give you lip service and run his mouth. and then when i dunk on his ass, stare him down, he pulls a temper tantrum.


Does anyone have stats on vertical leap and race? I'd be interested to see those results.

i don't know about stats on verticals and race. but, asians from i have seen have a pretty decent vertical. i've seen 5'5 guys grab rim with two hands and dunk a volleyball with one hand. one guy was 5'3 and he was grabbing rim with one hand.

my vertical was measured my sophomore year when i made the high school varsity squad. my vertical was measured at 37" at 5''11.

[Faithless]

but, what's worse is those pick up games where you encounter a black guy that thinks he was born with a naturally ability to play cuz he's black. he doesn't do anything spectacular in the game. all he does is give you lip service and run his mouth. and then when i dunk on his ass, stare him down, he pulls a temper tantrum.

Pickup games are probably the biggest argument against natural ability.

There are probably as many bad shots and bricks from guys with supposed "natural ability" as there are with the rest of the players.

.
i don't know about stats on verticals and race. but, asians from i have seen have a pretty decent vertical. i've seen 5'5 guys grab rim with two hands and dunk a volleyball with one hand. one guy was 5'3 and he was grabbing rim with one hand.

my vertical was measured my sophomore year when i made the high school varsity squad. my vertical was measured at 37" at 5''11.
Yeah, with something like this, I can see where a general bodytype, which trascends race, can come in handy:

Lanky or lean with great legs.

Of course even if you can grab rim, if you don't know how to lay it up, properly, you're just a good jumper with a bad shot.

[deez nuts]

Pickup games are probably the biggest argument against natural ability.

There are probably as many bad shots and bricks from guys with supposed "natural ability" as there are with the rest of the players.

actually the pick up games were pretty intense. we used to play at ruckers and in the st john's university gymnasium. and if bricks were being tossed up it wasn't from my team, cuz me and the four other guys that started went in as a group. heh heh heh.


Of course even if you can grab rim, if you don't know how to lay it up, properly, you're just a good jumper with a bad shot.

oh yeah i agree. as my high school coach always said, "you have raw talent and refined talent. if you can refine your raw talent that's what's gonna make you a better player."

[yoMAMA]

bird is operating on the assumption that whites will only root for white players.

but whites does root for black players, so his whole argument collapses.

[deez nuts]

bird is operating on the assumption that whites will only root for white players.

but whites does root for black players, so his whole argument collapses.

he was also saying from a corporate sponsorship point of view for the league as a whole there needs to be more white superstars.

[yoMAMA]

he was also saying from a corporate sponsorship point of view for the league as a whole there needs to be more white superstars.

well, MJ is black, and he made more $$$ for nike than about any slow ass crackas.... :wink:

[mrazntre]

I don't even know where to jump into this argument. I heard and read the transcript over and over for the past few days and it's really surprising that Bird would say something like this. It's not exactly PC, but in many ways he's just expressing his frustration or something. Perhaps he's only making this statement in order to cement his place in NBA history? Who knows.

There might be a misconception with blacks and basketball in that there is huge societal pressure in certain arenas that press either entertainment or sports as the only way out of the ghetto. Granted, not all blacks live in the ghetto, but the vast majority do. I don't see as many black people in Beverly Hills as say, Jefferson Park or South LA. There's been a systematic, ingrained focus for the vast majority of the black US population to buy into the belief of sports and/or entertainment as a one way ticket to riches. If your sole concentration and focus is basketball or football or whatever, you'd better be damn good at it. I think it's just training. IF you been doing it for so long, you have to have had developed some skills. Other people might be better than others, others might pick things up faster. Fact of the matter is, most white people don't give a damn about basketball, they'd rather play, cricket, football, baseball or hockey. And let's not forget the school system. What is stressed to young kids today? I'll tell you, it's fucked up in the ghetto. You have some administrators and teachers that really care about their students and will try to motivate them to go on to higher education and become doctors,lawyers, blah blah blah... BUT that's really not the general consensus.

In short, I think the reason that the vast majority of NBA players are is because society has placed that burden on them. There's a reason why the best gymnasts were Russian and stuff, that was their way to get out of poverty. I'm sure that's why we have so many Europeans (eastern europeans at that) coming over to the NBA and playing ball. That is now their way to get out the ghetto. It's all about ingrained societal aspirations. IF you're told that you have 1 way to move up, and only one way.... what you gonna do?


"Natural ability" - I believe that natural ability is the basis for skills developed. Essentially, you have a threshold of natural ability that can be built upon. Some realize far greater potential than others. You don't have to be black to be able to jump or dance or shoot the ball in the hole.

[deez nuts]

well, MJ is black, and he made more $$$ for nike than about any slow ass crackas.... :wink:


i think they mentioned MJ in that he's rare because he appealed to the white and black market.

[Chester]

He didn't name any specific players he generalized and said blacks in general. That in and of itself is an insult. It's the same thing Jimmy the Greek said and was fired for. Larry Bird said the greatest athletes in the world are black. Jimmy the Greek said that blacks are great athletes because they bred to be athletic by slaveowners.

If you see those two statements as being analogous, it's only because you're making assumptions about what you believe Larry Bird to be inferring.
NBA has been 'assimilated' by primarily Blacks, so he (IMO) is somewhat threatened. Bird's not threatened. He never felt threatened as either a player, a coach, or a front-office executive. Just because he feels that the league would benefit from more white American players doesn't mean he's threatened by the lack of them.
If he is so concerned about actual representation...there should be a fair amount of Hispanics, Asians, Native Americans...and so forth. Go back and read his statements. He's not concerned about representation. He's not advocating some affirmative action for whites in basketball. He's merely describing simple market dynamics: whites are still the majority of the population and, therefore, are a customer base whose desires and preferences -- even if racist -- cannot be ignored.

[krome]

i don't know about stats on verticals and race. but, asians from i have seen have a pretty decent vertical. i've seen 5'5 guys grab rim with two hands and dunk a volleyball with one hand. one guy was 5'3 and he was grabbing rim with one hand.

my vertical was measured my sophomore year when i made the high school varsity squad. my vertical was measured at 37" at 5''11.
Hmm, I've not seen any 5'5" guys of any race dunking v-balls. Or 5'3" guys grabbing rim. Maybe you should get some of this on film?

37"? Damn, u got some hops igga! I think mine was only like 31"/32" - about 6" short of dunking solid. Grrr.... I was working towards it but noticed it made my legs tight. Maybe someday again...

Anyways, individual anecdotes say little about the overall stats. I believe the dude with the highest athletic vertical in the world right now is 5'10" French-Algerian Kadour Ziani at 56" (360 over 3 people from way outside) (http://www.slamnation.net/videos/KADOUR_SLEEPS_IN_THE_AIR.MPG).

[deez nuts]

Hmm, I've not seen any 5'5" guys of any race dunking v-balls. Or 5'3" guys grabbing rim. Maybe you should get some of this on film?

the video camera and film wasn't invented back then. the 5'5 guy that dunked a v-ball was vietnamese and the the 5'3 guy that grabbed rim was laotian.

37"? Damn, u got some hops igga! I think mine was only like 31"/32" - about 6" short of dunking solid. Grrr.... I was working towards it but noticed it made my legs tight. Maybe someday again...

i wasn't able to dunk till summer before my senior year or somewhere around that time, prior to that i came close. i wasn't able to dunk in a game till the start off that basketball season.

i think my vertical went up through tons of suicide sprints during practice and time we had to spent in the weight room. or i just had the timing down.

one of my friends made a video of me dunking a v-ball when i was a HS freshman on JV. no idea where that video is since it was like 10 years ago and i think it was on beta-max too.

the only thing i can dunk nowadays is a donut.

[lethal]

David Aldridge comments (Aldridge, for those who don't know is a black commentator for ESPN). He also notes the Parcells incident.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2004/columns/story?columnist=aldridge_david&id=1818739

(By the way, let me take a minute here to address the words of another LB, Larry Bird. Bird was asked in an interview for an upcoming program if the league needed more white stars. He answered yes, because it would be good for the NBA's fan base, which is comprised mostly of white Americans. I know some of my friends will say that there is something wrong or racially problematic with what Bird said, to which I reply: shutupshutupshutupshutup. First, Bird didn't bring the subject up; he answered a question. Second, to deny that white people would like to see white athletes prosper is stupid. Black people like to see blacks succeed; Latinos like to see Latinos succeed; Asians like to see Asians succeed. [That's "Asians," not "Orientals," Bill Parcells.] You would hope that we all would like to see each other succeed, but that's another question, isn't it? Third, Bird has never, to my knowledge, exploited his race for his own personal gain. Throughout the '80s, when hosannas were being written about him and fans lionized him, it would have been easy for Bird to subtly put himself out there as some Great White Hope, and to make a killing doing it. But he didn't. He played the game and frequently gave the credit not to himself, but to black teammates like Dennis Johnson and Robert Parish. No one has made less of the fact that Bird is white than Bird.)

[BeTheReds]

I think the NBA is fine. When there were proportionally more white players in the 1970's, the NBA was considered the #4 sport even behind the NHL. Now I'd go so far as to say it's #2 behind the NFL. Surpassing MLB in popularity is amazing.

Most of the hockey players are white, but it really isn't that popular among the American public. It's semi popular, moreso than soccer, but still wil never be as popluar as basketball will be.

The state of the NBA is fine. No disrespect for Larry Bird.

[krome]

^ Well, I don't think Bird is really byching - just saying it'd be nice to see some more even representation - while fully acknowledging that blacks will always still dominate. That is a realistic statement to me.

It'd be the same as Tyra Banks saying that white girls will always dominate the modelling industry, but it'd be nice if there were a few more Black models. I wouldn't find anything wrong with that statement, either.

Yao Ming has a huge Asian fanbase. Why? Because he makes it feel like it'd be possible for US (Asians) now. How is it so different for any other race? Why did white Christians make Jesus Anglo? Why did Chinese Buddhists make Siddhartha Gautama Chinese?

Face it, people judge a race (and thus YOU) by their top celebs - so it does matter - if not consciously to you - then to others. You cannot escape gross racial-stereotyping by society - which is based a lot on high-profile visible members of your race. Just think of the perceptual impact Bruce Lee and William Hung have had on AMs, for instance. Or imagine if there were some huge Asian male p0rn stars... (There was actually an AF on another board recently who cracked on AMs as having '4 1/2" max peni5 sizes'...followed by many WMs/BMs agreeing with her and jacking off their own egos - existant ignorant attitudes like that could possibly change a bit for the better w/just a few visible celebs.)

[>:^|]

I don't even know where to jump into this argument. I heard and read the transcript over and over for the past few days and it's really surprising that Bird would say something like this. It's not exactly PC, but in many ways he's just expressing his frustration or something. Perhaps he's only making this statement in order to cement his place in NBA history? Who knows.

Yeah, I felt the same way. I don't even know what I might think Bird is trying to say. ;-)

Maybe he's lonely and doesn't get invited to the post-game parties at Black players' houses.

[Faithless]

Yeah, I felt the same way. I don't even know what I might think Bird is trying to say. ;-)

Maybe he's lonely and doesn't get invited to the post-game parties at Black players' houses.
Oo, his comment is a thing a guy would say that doesn't get invited anymoooore:

It almost sounds like the kind of comment goofy dudes make when they are with blacks and they think they're being nice by placating in some weird way.

Considering the rivalvry between Bird and Magic, it would be funny to know that Magic knew what was going on but decided to let Bird shoot a brick with his mouth.

[FrankieY18]

"Bird went on to say that, as a player, he was offended when white players attempted to guard him."

I laughed so hard when he said that

[Chester]

Perhaps he's only making this statement in order to cement his place in NBA history? Who knows. His place in NBA history is not only cemented, it's bedrock.
Considering the rivalvry between Bird and Magic, it would be funny to know that Magic knew what was going on but decided to let Bird shoot a brick with his mouth During the interview, Magic backed up Bird's point and he has continued to do so in the aftermath.

[Faithless]

Is this guy saying to give Bird a break?

Attempting to appeal to NBA's fan base is not controversial (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/8926921.htm?1c)
BY TIM COWLISHAW

The Dallas Morning News


DALLAS - (KRT) - Larry Bird said the NBA could use more white superstars. Magic Johnson agreed, saying the league needed more Larry Birds.

This is controversy?

Excuse me for returning to the side of the politically correct fence with which I am more comfortable. I had to shift to the opposite only because Bill Parcells seemed to go out of his way to offend a group of people (it's not like he was responding to a question along those lines), and that's a story that needs no more rehashing.

But what did Bird say that was wrong? Jim Gray asked him in an ESPN interview if the NBA needed more white superstars. Bird said yes.

He didn't say that teams need to keep marginal white players on their roster at the expense of better black players. He didn't say that white fans only want to see white players succeed. He stated a fact, and there probably isn't a team in the league that wouldn't like to add a white star player to its roster.

To examine Bird's response, let's take the opposite situation. In the National Hockey League, there is one black superstar, and until Calgary's magical playoff run, the average American sports fan knew nothing about Jarome Iginla.

Hockey is not high on the list of sports favored by minorities. To grow up playing the game (until recently), you had to live in the North or in Canada, you had to have access to ice and you pretty much had to have money.

Would the NHL have more appeal to minorities if the New York Rangers and Philadelphia Flyers and Detroit Red Wings had black star players on their rosters? Of course. People enjoy trying to identify with or emulate others of their race excelling in sports.

Don't you suppose that Yao Ming will draw more Asians and Asian-Americans to basketball? That's obvious from, among other things, the Internet All-Star balloting.

Tiger Woods brings minorities into golf. Eminem draws white listeners to hip-hop. At the same time, both have appeal that crosses color barriers.

So while the vast majority of white fans have no problem cheering for black players, many would like to see a white player succeed, too. I can't imagine what is wrong with that.

It's not like this is Berlin, 1936 and we're attempting to prove the superiority of one race over another. Bird acknowledged that basketball is a black man's game and that most of the best players always will be black.

But to think a white star of Bird's class wouldn't increase the game's popularity for some is preposterous.

Bird is the only white player to win the league's MVP honor in the last 25 years. There hasn't been a white first-team all-NBA player since Utah's John Stockton was on the list 10 years ago.

In today's league, there probably isn't a white player capable of winning an MVP. The Mavs' Dirk Nowitzki and Sacramento's Peja Stojakovic would come the closest, but they are incomplete players.

They also are European, which is another issue to be raised. We were able to watch Bird's final season at Indiana State and the great showdown with Michigan State's Magic in the NCAA championship game, still the highest-rated college basketball game ever.

Players such as Nowitzki and Stojakovic and Utah's Andrei Kirilenko pretty much fall out of the sky and land on NBA courts, as far as we can tell. These are all popular players, no doubt, but Americans like to cheer for Americans, too, and if we have to apologize for that, heaven help us all.

When Bird was interviewed, he was seated between Magic and Carmelo Anthony. There probably was a locker-room feel to the situation, and in locker rooms, players joke casually about race issues all the time.

That doesn't mean Bird was unaware that the cameras were rolling. But when we scrutinize and criticize what is nothing more than an honest answer to a question designed to create controversy, what are we, in fact, doing?

We are discouraging debate, not encouraging it. If you can't even talk about race without being branded a racist, then there's no point in even answering these questions. And that breeds an unhealthy climate of mistrust and secrecy.

There is a difference between the refusal to acknowledge or appreciate the accomplishments of black athletes and the simple desire to, occasionally, cheer for a white player in a game dominated by blacks.

In a perfect world, we don't notice skin color. In this less than perfect one, there's nothing wrong with hoping a second black quarterback wins a Super Bowl or that another Larry Bird comes along in our lifetime.

[TB4000]

I gotta admit, if hockey and lacrosse(a sport I still have yet to get...basically soccer with scoops) were as popular as football and basketball, there would be a large outcry for the lack of black players, so to an extent, I see what the deal is.

[krome]

Don't you suppose that Yao Ming will draw more Asians and Asian-Americans to basketball? That's obvious from, among other things, the Internet All-Star balloting.
Why do igmo YTs keep assuming all of Yao's fans are mainland Chinese? It was already reported that most of his recent All-Star votes were domestic, NOT overseas. Sure, he does have a large Asian-American fanbase (so I do agree with his underlying pt) - but Allen Iverson is probably a bigger star in China than he is. Average kids there actually relate more to a small guy playing big than a 7'6" giant whom they will never be like. Sure, doubtful they could be the next "Answer," either - but at lest there's some mental hope. One look in the mirror though and you KNOW you ain't ever gonna be 7'6"! :biggrin:

[Chester]

Now, if the larger White majority is going to complain over lack of representation in these 'minority' films....uhmm...doesn't balance with me...

I still don't get Larry Bird's argument.... Because you seem to not have watched it or read it. He never made the argument that there needs to be more whites for "fairness" reasons. He made the very simple point that people like to watch people whom they can identify with, and that this means that having a paucity of white stars threatens the NBA's appeal to white America. His point is purely a business one and if you extrapolate sociological points from it, you're putting words into his mouth that don't necessarily belong there.

[deez nuts]

Because you seem to not have watched it or read it. He never made the argument that there needs to be more whites for "fairness" reasons. He made the very simple point that people like to watch people whom they can identify with, and that this means that having a paucity of white stars threatens the NBA's appeal to white America. His point is purely a business one and if you extrapolate sociological points from it, you're putting words into his mouth that don't necessarily belong there.

i agree what bird said was pretty innocuous.

what i did find disturbing was magic's constant ass kissing in that whole interview. as great as a player as he was, he's one annoying obsequious bastard.

[achtungbaby]

i agree what bird said was pretty innocuous.

what i did find disturbing was magic's constant ass kissing in that whole interview. as great as a player as he was, he's one annoying obsequious bastard.
I never thought Magic was particularly great at speaking or even had much insight to ever bring -- but what a helluva basketball player...!

Same with Bird. I do think it was innocuous and that's precisely why I think he should have avoided it or answered a little more deftly than that. Increasing the number of whites, I'm sure, isn't some major agenda item for Bird, not something that he'd have to stump on and speak about at every interview. It's always the seemingly innocent little comments that can get probed and shredded and he should know better as a general manager of a professional basketball organization. I doubt this is going to be a serious detriment to recruiting talent for Indiana, but I don't know if it's so implausible either: how excited can Black athletes be about the prospect of playing for a guy who wished you were the same color as him and the fans?

[Faithless]

Race in sports: Legitimate topic bears discussing (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-040612morrissey,1,1355927.column?coll=cs-home-utility)
June 13, 2004


In many ways, sports is our cultural thermometer. When Larry Bird talks about the issue of color in the NBA and a huge outcry results, it tells us that maybe we're not as far along in the discussion of race in our country as we thought we were.

If we look at it from the way Bird was looking at it—as the Pacers' president of basketball operations and purely from a marketing standpoint—there is really nothing shocking about what he said: It might be a good thing to have a few white American superstars in the NBA, seeing as how 95 percent of the occupied seats are filled by white Americans.

To some people, the disturbing suggestion in Bird's statement is the idea that whites want to see whites play sports. It's disturbing because we as a society expect more out of athletics. We see sports as the great equalizer, the one place where color isn't supposed to matter.

But why should sports be different from the rest of society? If we can paint with a broad brush here, blacks tend to listen to music by blacks. Whites tend to watch different TV shows than blacks do. For years, Major League Soccer has been trying to market to Hispanics because many Hispanics like soccer. Is that racist? No, just good business.

NBA rosters are made up overwhelmingly of African-Americans, and NBA arenas are filled overwhelmingly with white people. To pretend these aren't facts is to pretend that 1) white Americans are good enough to play in the NBA but choose to be, say, professional bowlers instead and 2) blacks have enough money to afford tickets but choose to spend their money on blue-chip stocks.

There is no national rallying cry that more whites belong in the NBA, and there shouldn't be. But there's no crime in asking why there aren't more playing at the highest level. It's dangerous territory, because once we start asking about one race's deficiencies, it opens things up for bigots to question why another race is lagging elsewhere. Forget about those fools.

I know there are fewer blacks playing pro baseball because of a lack of participation among blacks at the youth level.

I know that lots of white kids play basketball. I don't know for sure why there aren't more whites in the NBA other than what my eyes tell me: They aren't good enough.

Bird says: "It's a black man's game, and it will be forever. I mean, the greatest athletes in the world are African-American."

Even a casual look at today's sports scene confirms that. And if you put a group of African-Americans in a room and asked them who the best athletes are, they would say that blacks are. Whites would agree. But the bigger question is: Why are blacks better? Are there physiological reasons? Sociological?

Ah, but we're not supposed to discuss that, at least not publicly. It's not considered appropriate to say blacks jump higher than whites or have better muscle definition. We're supposed to ignore that black players generally are more graceful with a basketball than whites are.

Bird committed the sin of saying publicly what a lot of people are saying privately.

We're better off talking about it, just as we're better off talking about why a disproportionate number of blacks aren't getting the quality education they deserve.

I wrote a column about the Bears' Brock Forsey when he started a game at running back last year. He is white. White NFL running backs are about as prevalent as walking fish. If it's something people are talking about among themselves, then it's something that should be talked about publicly. Why are there so few white running backs?

I don't know the answer to that, just as I don't know for sure why blacks dominate the NBA. I do know it's not a sin to ask.

Why can a movie be titled "White Men Can't Jump" without much controversy, but Bird can be criticized for saying that, in essence, it might be good if the NBA could find a few white guys who could jump? Probably because people don't want to confront the things they joke about.

NBA player Charles Oakley told the Tribune's K.C. Johnson that "certain people can say things and get away with them. If Allen Iverson or Latrell Sprewell said that, it'd be a cover story." Oakley must not be paying attention. It is a cover story. And it's a good thing.

[krome]

NBA player Charles Oakley told the Tribune's K.C. Johnson that "certain people can say things and get away with them. If Allen Iverson or Latrell Sprewell said that, it'd be a cover story."
Actually, MANY Black athletes have touted Black athletic superiority - OJ Simpson made comments about how "little Johnny Chang" couldn't play football. Michael Jackson has made comments about how Blacks are musically superior. Etc, etc. You just don't hear about it though cuz it doesn't become "news" unless a white person makes those very same comments.

Genetic racial differences are the ultimate taboo in this country. Nearly everyone implicitly operates under the stereotyped assumptions that they do exist, yet fervently explicitly deny that they do.

[Chester]

I would never consider Charles Oakley an authority on anything aside from being an authority on crazy.

[krome]

^ Clearly, these Black celebs hold the same-type racially-stereotypical prejudices as Larry Bird. So, what's the diff? And, that was just a handful I noted. There's many, many more too. And, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with them, either. Clearly, there are some racial trends and bell curves. It's quite obvious to any observer - so why is it so taboo to verbally point it out? They're probably combinations of genetic, cultural and environmental components. Well, it's called DIVERSITY - we all preach it - yet are afraid to actually believe it? :confused:

And does RACE of role models matter? Of-fvcking-course! I mean, how many AMs here did not idolize Bruce Lee growing up? Yes, he has huge crossover appeal too - but I doubt his overall popularity could surpass that amongst "fellow" AMs!

72 percent of teens chose role models of like ethnicity and 86 percent chose models of the same gender. Among African American teens, 96 percent chose a role model of the same ethnicity, compared with 79 percent of whites and 64 percent of Latinos. (http://www.ph.ucla.edu/pr/newsitem012802.html)

So, it's official. Now, let's just drop the PC BS and be real, people! :rolleyes: