Draft Dodging

[AngryABCGirl]

Should we as citizens of any country, have an obligation to fight for it, even if we are not necessarily directing defending it or the cause of war is murky (such as right now?)

I really don't feel like I should or need to unless somebody is coming to my house to kill me or the people I care about right now.

[John0101]

No, I do not believe that we do. I believe the government is suppose to serve its people not the other way around.

[Emperor_Mike]

A difficult question to answer. Assuming that it is a legitimate cause we're talking about then I believe that everyone has a duty to preserve their country. If it is an unjust conflict (is there such a thing as a "just" war?) then no such duty ought to exist. Pretty simplistic response, but I don't think I have the time to think this issue over. :wink:

[Jeff Yu :)]

Assuming that the cause of the war is just, yes, I believe that citizens of the country have an obligation of service to it. Afghanistan, I think, would count as defense after 9/11. I believe that if a citizen wants to enjoy the rights and freedoms of society, he or she must be willing to serve and defend that society. Several members of my family have served in the military before. My granduncle served in the US Army during the Korean war, and my uncle served during Vietnam. Myself, I don't know. I feel a sense of wanting to have done something for my country, but I also don't support what our military is currently doing, I'm not in the best of shape, and I'm also a gutless coward, and I imagine I'd be terrified of being shot at.

[Bhodi_Li]

I imagine I'd be terrified of being shot at.I get terrified when I get shot at. There's no shame in that.


I really don't feel like I should or need to unless somebody is coming to my house to kill me or the people I care about right now.By that time it's already too late. You and your family are dead because nobody stopped them before they entered the country.

This next part is a general comment and not directed at AzNBuffGrL

As long as everyone's willing to give up our current standard of living and let global economics/politics determine our path and not the other way around, I say don't serve.

Americans know nothing about selfless service for their country. They're only interested in how it benefits them. How can a government "serve" you without your support? Is there a magical pool of worker drones that the government clones or is it the everyday citizen that makes the government function?

I believe there should be a required term of government service after HS/college. You can have your choice of military, public service, law enforcement, etc, but every citizen should be required to give something back to his/her country. Of course that would NEVER happen because none of you really owe anything back right? Everything you have is what you deserve and are entitled to. Every freedom and luxury, you have earned by the very fact of your existence. If it is in jeopardy then the government should do something about it, but they shouldn't expect you to sacrifice for it, because you've earned every bit of it.

And if you would serve, there would have to be a clause that says, if you as the citizen don't agree with the course of action, then you're free to go, b/c if you don't agree with it, why should you do it?

[ellsworth81]

what about the fools who just aren't capable of doing public service? the ones that human compassion lets stick around where in a more "practical" society would have killed off already. how would they do their share?

[Bhodi_Li]

what about the fools who just aren't capable of doing public service? the ones that human compassion lets stick around where in a more "practical" society would have killed off already. how would they do their share?I say we eat them.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

And if you would serve, there would have to be a clause that says, if you as the citizen don't agree with the course of action, then you're free to go, b/c if you don't agree with it, why should you do it?
And then most people will flow to some country which doesn't have to confiscate human capital to support imperial dreams which they never signed up to be a part of while failing to protect their citizens either outside or inside their own borders. What exactly do I owe to a country which couldn't even give me a safe childhood or decent schools, despite the disgusting amounts of money spent on police services and public education.

Free to go? I went, and I'm much happier, regardless of the lower salary. But I'm still paying for being an American, both literally and figuratively.

[Bhodi_Li]

Free to go? I went, and I'm much happier, regardless of the lower salary. But I'm still paying for being an American, both literally and figuratively.Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[BigLew]

Many kids coming straight out of highschool have no direction and don't know what the hell to do with thier lives. I believe something like what Isreal does would be a good idea, something like 2 years required service after highschool? Also military is not all combat, infact combat is the smallest part. There are plenty of logistics jobs you can sign up for in which you will never see combat even during wartime.

[kitty]

Do I think it's a citizen's duty? No. I do think that people who agree with the war should hold themselve's responsible to a personal duty to support the war. But I don't think every citizen should be seen as either patriotic or not depending on whether or not they enter into military service. Some people who don't go into the military might be just as productive and patriotic and giving to their countries in other ways, while they might make terrible soldiers.

I think talking about 'just' wars or 'unjust' wars are silly -- because you'll never get everyone to agree on what a just war and an unjust war is. Some would argue that the war in Afghanistan is justified because Osama attacked us, others would say not. I would say that if you, personally, firmly believe in the war, than you have a duty only to yourself to serve.

[Emperor_Mike]

Of course, military service can take on many facets. It's not just about being a soldier in an infantry/armoured/airborne division. In my case there's the JAG Corps and I have to admit that it looks pretty attractive. Of course, it would mean obtaining US citizenship, something that might not be helpful if I'm planning on a long career at the UN. Decisions, decisions.

[damashii]

I get terrified when I get shot at. There's no shame in that.


By that time it's already too late. You and your family are dead because nobody stopped them before they entered the country.

This next part is a general comment and not directed at AzNBuffGrL

As long as everyone's willing to give up our current standard of living and let global economics/politics determine our path and not the other way around, I say don't serve.

Americans know nothing about selfless service for their country. They're only interested in how it benefits them. How can a government "serve" you without your support? Is there a magical pool of worker drones that the government clones or is it the everyday citizen that makes the government function?

I believe there should be a required term of government service after HS/college. You can have your choice of military, public service, law enforcement, etc, but every citizen should be required to give something back to his/her country. Of course that would NEVER happen because none of you really owe anything back right? Everything you have is what you deserve and are entitled to. Every freedom and luxury, you have earned by the very fact of your existence. If it is in jeopardy then the government should do something about it, but they shouldn't expect you to sacrifice for it, because you've earned every bit of it.

And if you would serve, there would have to be a clause that says, if you as the citizen don't agree with the course of action, then you're free to go, b/c if you don't agree with it, why should you do it?

The aperthied in South Africa was fought in the name of freedom. The taliban bombed the world trade center in the name of fighting oppression. Japan attacked the mainland of asia and residing islands in the name of uniting asia, the nazi's, serbians, how do you know the country you live in serves in the best interest of all peoples? How do you know what you are doing is right? What are you killing for? Those are the questions I would ask myself. The media makes it seem honorable and just, but I think the media represents the society as a whole, opportunisticly just. In terms of N. America... As long as we have people who think like most of the people in the south there will defenlity be many many more wars to come. My humble opinion at the moment.

[lethal]

I read that it costs the government upwards of $100K per soldier per year in salary, housing, food, benefits, etc...and the money simply isn't there to increase the size of the military.

If we did require military service, who would pay for it all? Would larger force sizes remove one more barrier that keep politicians from waging war (the desire not to be spread too thin)?

Personally, I don't think mandatory conscription is a good idea, but I do think that everyone should contribute something to the greater public good in whatever way they deem is best. For me this is volunteering at legal clinics for low income people. This is where my skills can be best used and probably the most efficient use of resources.

[Mr.Lum]

I think I would fight/join the military if I agreed with the cause, or if I was already in the military and had to. I think that people should be sent to the military anyway, it wouldnt do any harm way I see it. keep us fit and smarter I think. I think that people often have the bad/wrong attitude, "they should do it for us" well, they need to to help them and you dont get anything with out a struggle. unless youre rich and white usually.

[VV o n g B a]

Personally, I don't think mandatory conscription is a good idea, but I do think that everyone should contribute something to the greater public good in whatever way they deem is best. For me this is volunteering at legal clinics for low income people. This is where my skills can be best used and probably the most efficient use of resources.
that sounds like high school all over again where kids (like me) who didn't give a shit went out and volunteered specifically to put it on their college applications. its meaningless. and worse, i resented having to fake compassion like that and have avoided volunteer work since then.

i do my part for the country. i pay my taxes. and social security. and medicare. thats plenty in my mind.

[Craig]

The funding for my paycheck comes from NASA.

[John0101]

The greatest form of freedom is your ability to influence and guide your own future without anyone interfering. You do not want to die fighting someone who also does not want to die. We fight because people who control power (power meaning having considerable influence over the lives of other people) have something to gain from the war. If you believe in personal freedom then you would say fighting in a war should be a personal decision even if its a just war (is it ever just?).

Another question, will there be war and fighting if everybody have equal power?

[Shinran]

Bodhi Li--I agree that we should defend our country. I admire those who serve now and respect all of our troops. YOU have chosen to join the military and fight FOR our country and become a tool of the politicians.

I would fight to DEFEND my country against invasion as would all Americans. I would die to protect my family, friends, the ideals that this nation was founded on, but I will NOT die while serving as the sword of the elected.

It is my right as an American, given to me by those who have fought to defend our country against foreign powers. It is my right as an American to have freedom and voice my opinion, given to me by the soldiers and sailors that fought the great wars in this country and around the world. As it is every American's right as well.

If drafted, I will become an objector for this or any other war that is not against an invading or hostile country. If necessary, I won't wait for a draft. On the other hand, if Japan is invaded by a country, I will join the Japanese military and defend my ancestral home. (and no, I haven't thought of what to do if America invaded Japan)

I do agree that all citizens should either serve in the military, civil service or law enforcement. I would have enjoyed the offer for that type of training and honor to serve my country. There are many kids that would do much better in life if compulsory service was required.

Just my $.02

[fresh22]

This may be an aside but I read a statistic once that only 1 in 6 Americans actually qualifty for military service.

Criminal records and medical conditions may require waivers. Even bad credit can disqualify you for service. Also not to mention many common medical conditions like eczema which millions in America have is disqualifying. As a result, many don't even meet the bare requirements to join the military. I don't think the military would like to be buried in paperwork for all the waivers people would need to join.

[AngryABCGirl]

And then most people will flow to some country which doesn't have to confiscate human capital to support imperial dreams which they never signed up to be a part of while failing to protect their citizens either outside or inside their own borders. What exactly do I owe to a country which couldn't even give me a safe childhood or decent schools, despite the disgusting amounts of money spent on police services and public education.

Free to go? I went, and I'm much happier, regardless of the lower salary. But I'm still paying for being an American, both literally and figuratively.

That exactly sums up how I feel about the matter. I pay my dues and my taxes, and I do do volunteer work and a share of civic duties, but to get me to fight, kill people, and die for a country that marginalizes me and treats a great dearth of its people like shit despite sometimes outrageous dues isn't something I'd do unless there was a dire need of defense.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

The other thing is, a lot of the enthusiasm for reinstating the draft comes not from any assessment of military or economic necessity, but instead cuz some people feel that Americans need something to "unite" them. What better than an expensive government program to fill the gap? Liberals like it cuz it involves not only spending rich people's money but also the new opportunity of kidnapping their children, and conservatives like it cuz it provides massive opportunities for pork to one of their favored constituencies as well as increasing the power of one of the few departments of government not dominated by liberals.

However, if you want to see the success or failure of such measures, just look to Singapore: they pathetically try to portray Malaysia as some sort of existential threat to their existence in order to justify the draft, but in reality, the military's just a way of mixing people from different language groups together. But afterwards, they all go their separate ways again and rarely mix, taking with them only a shared cynicism about the government.

[applehead]

how can you NOT feel obligated?
explain to me.
you live in this country.
you partake in its resources.
i feel obligated but i will never, ever join the army.
because, (and i'm not going to sugar coat it), i'm selfish.
very selfish.
i can't imagine living so far away from my family and friends.
and other luxuries like a clean bath everynight and things like that.
which is why i so admire the soliders. and very grateful that
they are over there fighting for all of us.

[Bhodi_Li]

how can you NOT feel obligated?
explain to me.
you live in this country.
you partake in its resources.
i feel obligated but i will never, ever join the army.
because, (and i'm not going to sugar coat it), i'm selfish.
very selfish.
i can't imagine living so far away from my family and friends.
and other luxuries like a clean bath everynight and things like that.
which is why i so admire the soliders. and very grateful that
they are over there fighting for all of us.Meena, I'd give you karma right now if I could!!!

[Kuchana]

how can you NOT feel obligated?
explain to me.
you live in this country.
you partake in its resources.
i feel obligated but i will never, ever join the army.
because, (and i'm not going to sugar coat it), i'm selfish.
very selfish.
i can't imagine living so far away from my family and friends.
and other luxuries like a clean bath everynight and things like that.
which is why i so admire the soliders. and very grateful that
they are over there fighting for all of us.

thank you for your honesty. i really appreciate it.

mike i already did:)

[John0101]

how can you NOT feel obligated?
explain to me.
you live in this country.
you partake in its resources.
i feel obligated but i will never, ever join the army.
because, (and i'm not going to sugar coat it), i'm selfish.
very selfish.
i can't imagine living so far away from my family and friends.
and other luxuries like a clean bath everynight and things like that.
which is why i so admire the soliders. and very grateful that
they are over there fighting for all of us.

Do you think Japanese Americans should of fought for the U.S. in WW2? The U.S. took away their homes, processions, put them into prisons and they still fought for the U.S.

If I was Japanese American at that time I'll sure as hell wouldn't fight for the U.S.

[BigLew]

Do you think Japanese Americans should of fought for the U.S. in WW2? The U.S. took away their homes, processions, put them into prisons and they still fought for the U.S.

If I was Japanese American at that time I'll sure as hell wouldn't fight for the U.S.
You can't equate being in the modern military as being Japanese American during the WWII era. Only if you were Arab American and had friends or family wrongfully held and stripped of rights.

[Kuchana]

Do you think Japanese Americans should of fought for the U.S. in WW2? The U.S. took away their homes, processions, put them into prisons and they still fought for the U.S.

If I was Japanese American at that time I'll sure as hell wouldn't fight for the U.S.

Well why do you think they did it? Or blacks for that matter? They had just as much reason, maybe moreso than Japanese-Americans, to not fight for the U.S. but they did. Somehow they were able to get past the bitterness and pain and fight to show patriotism for their country when badly needed.

[John0101]

You can't equate being in the modern military as being Japanese American during the WWII era. Only if you were Arab American and had friends or family wrongfully held and stripped of rights.

I wanted to use it as an example, Japanese American of that time were made into second class citizens much like many minorities today, but today, being made into second class citizens takes on a different form.

I really why those Japanese Americans fought, at first I thought they were fighting for respect, but I really don't know.

Imagine how that feels... having to fight against the country where your grandparents still call home and having to kill a person who looks similiar to you, while yet being having your rights stripped by your oppressor.

[applehead]

i don't know why they fought.
but the fact is that they did.

so are you calling those japanese americans
who fought stupid for doing so?

i'm having trouble correlating the example you posted
with this thread. it's about feeling obliagted to fight
for your country.
apparently some japanese americans did feel obligated
to do so, very obligated and joined the army.

[John0101]

i don't know why they fought.
but the fact is that they did.

so are you calling those japanese americans
who fought stupid for doing so?

i'm having trouble correlating the example you posted
with this thread. it's about feeling obliagted to fight
for your country.
apparently some japanese americans did feel obligated
to do so, very obligated and joined the army.

stupid or incredibly brave

maybe they thought that facism was the greater evil. Anybody know a good book that can relate to this?

[kuilong]

stupid or incredibly brave

maybe they thought that facism was the greater evil. Anybody know a good book that can relate to this?

Or perhaps they thought that the US offered them more hope for equality in the future than authoritarian regimes. Or perhaps they don't buy into the idea of only helping people who help you. "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same?" There are a myriad of legitimate reasons why they could have decided to fight for their country.

[SynRG]

No, I do not believe that we do. I believe the government is suppose to serve its people not the other way around.

I'm prolly gonna get sh*t for this but this is the best quote I've read in this entire thread.

Voting, paying your taxes, etc in my opinion all fall in the realm of what a citizen owes their government for serving them. Something so controversial as going to WAR does not. Why? Because you can't force people to fight if they don't want to fight. People need to have the right to make the choice as to whether or not they want to enter military service, and that's something (if you can't allready tell) I feel very strongly about.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-military. If you want to enlist, more power to you. In fact I totally support soldiers and veterans receiving special benefits because they make a sacrifice in the name of their country. HOWEVER, that sacrifice is and should always remain their choice.

Also, I've read alot of posts from people saying "if it were a justified cause i would do it." Well, that's pretty much my point exactly. If people have the choice of enlisting and the majority of citizens believe a war is justified, then there's very little conflict there. However, if you have a draft or mandatory military service, then the government can send it's citizens, willing or unwilling, anywhere they want. Under that system there is less incentive for the government to actually justify it's actions to it's citizens, something I believe every democratic government, especially the American government, should be held accountable for. Under a draft system the government could conceiveably say "fuck whether or not our citizens think this is right or wrong, we can send anyone who is able to walk and fire a gun anywhere we want and make them do whatever we want."

Of course, I understand that our government system is much more complex than that and that there are checks and balances built into the system to prevent sitations like that. However despite institutional checks and balances, the biggest difference between having and not having a mandatory military service or draft is- by having a system in which citizens have the choice whether or not to enter military service, there is more pressure/incentive on the part of the government to be accountable not only internally, but also to public opinion, which is the way it should be.

This all being said though, I think in the reality of America's current situation is that it doesn't really matter since I think we allready have more than enough citizens who are more than willing to enlist and fight for their country, thus there is no real need for a mandatory military service anyways.

[AngryABCGirl]

If there were one, would you do it?

[SynRG]

Depends on the consequences and the circumstance. I'm pretty adamently against ANY sort of draft.. but I would have to question if it would be worth risking the penalties or worse revoking my citizenship over it. This time around they're definitely going to make it much more difficult to dodge.

EDIT- Even though I'm unsure, I voted "yes".. because i know myself and if it came down to it given what I believe in and my admitted tendency to be selfish and put myself ahead of my country........ i might just actually do it.

It would, though, should the situation arise, be something I would have definitely think very carefully about and weigh out the consequences either way. Right now I'm not even sure HOW I would manage to fandangle it... or whether or not it would even be possible for me. But i'm pretty sure especially now with how much I am against the idea, i would want to do it.

[Bhodi_Li]

No. Why throw away my future for a temporary situation. We tell the soldiers that start doing stupid things to get out of a deployment the same thing.

[kuilong]

Probably not, seeing as even if the law's in the wrong, breaking the law (and the consequent damage to the law's reputation) would probably be the worse wrong. And if I did, I'd probably not immigrate to another country, but instead be charged, since that, at least, would be civil disobedience.

At least, that's what I like to think I'd do, but when it comes down to it, I'm not completely certain how I'd act. Especially seeing as for me, this would be being drafted into a foreign army.

[AngryABCGirl]

I'm saying yes right now to running away to Taiwan and hiding out with relatives until I can adjusted enough to not stick out as much as then go hide someplace in the Chinese-speaking world. Me and my friends were having a discussion about the places we'd run to if there was a draft, and we realized a lot of us would sooner run away than do this.

I don't think I could ever live with myself if I killed someone else in combat in a cause I do not feel is justifiable in any sense. In fact I know I could never live after that. Then there's also the possibility of not coming back anyway or getting seriously wounded or raped somewhere. Of course though I'm saying that right now since we live in the age of Iraq, and it's very easy to be cynical about that.

But to really run away would be really really dishonorable, I don't know if I could live with myself and the shame that'd bring on my family and myself as an Asian-American/Asian-American activist. I'd feel horrible if I knew close friends and family were being drafted because they didn't couldn't disappear someplace else and had to go fight while I was hiding out someplace. I can't even decide what's worse.

[Emperor_Mike]

If I was American I'd give a resounding "no" to dodging. Unlike Vietnam Iraq has gone from "someone else's war" to a war for national defence. The Administration turned an artificial (at this point with no evidence) threat into a real one and as September 11th demonstrated to everyone around the world no nation is safe from a determined enemy utilising unconventional means of attack.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Are we talking a military draft or a Malaysian-style "national service" draft (i.e. sending out draftees to do stuff like building infrastructure in the countryside, performing disaster relief, police, coast guard, firemen, etc)?

National service I wouldn't have dodged if I fell under it in Malaysia. As much as I hate some of the Malaysian government's domestic policies and the fucknuts who vote for the Islamofascist PAS, 1) the government kept me safe as a kid, which is more than I can say for the US, 2) they're actually dismantling the more egregiously unfair policies like affirmative action and crony capitalism (while the US does the opposite), and 3) parts of Malaysia are genuinely poor, not first world "poor". Nor would I dodge a military draft there.

I can't imagine Hong Kong making a national service or even territorial service draft. Military draft? HAHAHA. PLA trying to draft in HK would mean people rioting in the streets.

US? National service, I wouldn't dodge. I actually seriously considered becoming a police officer once. A military draft I doubt I'd dodge a war of punitive expedition (Afghanistan, Iraq I) or in the event we're actually being invaded.

[SunWuKong]

i wouldn't dodge if i know i would be assigned to specifically defend American soil, but that doesn't include this "pre-emptive strike" business where i would be sent overseas on an invasion.

in the event where i know i would be sent overseas for an invasion, i'd first see if i can be a conscientious objector. failing that, i would definitely dodge the draft. i don't know what the consequences of that is, but i can live with that much easier than killing someone or even helping to kill someone. i already dislike having my tax dollars spent on the Iraqi war, i definitely don't want my own body sent to a war like that by the government.

[hooligan]

no, i wouldn't dodge, if i had nothing to lose i'd dodge, but i've got to think about my family. my dad wouldn't want me to,... : |

[Kuchana]

Absolutely not.

[Arex]

Probably not, seeing as even if the law's in the wrong, breaking the law (and the consequent damage to the law's reputation) would probably be the worse wrong. And if I did, I'd probably not immigrate to another country, but instead be charged, since that, at least, would be civil disobedience.
I have no personal qualms with breaking an unjust law. In fact, in certain circumstances, violating the law may be the only way to protest an unjust law. And any law that seeks to place hundreds of thousands of civilians vehemently opposed to the war in harms way, simply because the administration had a personal vendetta against a country, was foolishly shortsighted and was willfully blind to the hard facts and evidence is an unjust law in my opinion.

Regardless of what the war in Iraq has turned into, I could never support a draft to send my generation, or my children to war over there. Even if it comes to a point where our troops are being overwhelmed by the insurgents whom Mr. Biggest-Fuck-Up-In-American-History (Bush) invited to "bring it on," even if we never get the international support our adorable president said we could do without, and even if we cease making any forward progress and withdrawal is imminent, I would oppose, and not participate in, any draft to send troops to Iraq.

If there are enemy soldiers advancing on America's borders, and a draft was deemed necessary, I would fight. If there was an identified threat, amassing troops and armor for a full scale invasion of America, I would fight. While a failure and withdrawal in Iraq now would present more than somewhat of a security threat to the United States, as well as the rest of the world, the threat is still insufficiently imminent or dire to warrant the use of a draft in an attempt to quash that threat. Send our troops, if you wish, but don't send unwilling participants.

If more terrorist attacks actually occur on our home soil, and those attacks are directly linked to any particular terrorist hotbed, then perhaps that might motivate me more to support a draft. But the whole notion of preemptive strikes, to me, is problematic because unless there's a concrete basis for such a strike, supported by ample evidence, the war is always going to appear unjustified and just rile up more hatred for the U.S., thus inviting further terrorist action against us (see, e.g., Iraq).

Even if we'd known about 9/11 in its planning stages, I would not have supported a full scale military invasion and occupation of Afghanistan for these same reasons, nor would I have supported a draft to fuel that war (limited covert military actions, yes, invasion and occupation and draft, no). So why should I support a draft to fuel this war that was based on false pretenses, but has now evolved into a true preemptive war because it was so poorly planned? Even if civilians die on American soil as a result of us allowing terrorist groups to proliferate overbroad, part of me thinks that's the price we as Americans pay for our jacked-up foreign policies. I'd rather be done in by a terrorist bomb on American soil, than be sent to my death unwillingly by my own govt.

RX

[Mo'Taka]

Folks, being drafted doesn't mean you'll be sent straight to the frontline. Only a small fraction would be qualified to be drafted anyway. If drafted you'd most likely be doing support, supply, logistics and whatnot. So if you're willing to renounce your citizenship and move out of the country just to avoid cleaning latrines, more power to ya.

[Bhodi_Li]

II'd rather be done in by a terrorist bomb on American soil, than be sent to my death unwillingly by my own govt.

RXWow. That's one way to look at it. I bet people who's families die in terrorist attacks would appreciate your honesty and dedication to freedom. I know I sure am.

[Arex]

I'd rather be done in by a terrorist bomb on American soil, than be sent to my death unwillingly by my own govt.
Wow. That's one way to look at it. I bet people who's families die in terrorist attacks would appreciate your honesty and dedication to freedom. I know I sure am.
Well, I'd also rather die fighting in a true war for freedom that I believed in (e.g. WWII) than either of the two options above, but that's not what we have with Iraq.

RX

[Bhodi_Li]

Well, I'd also rather die fighting in a true war for freedom that I believed in (e.g. WWII) than either of the two options above, but that's not what we have with Iraq.

RXYou're never fought in a war have you? I love how people say they're so willing to wait until America is attacked and then ask why wasn't anything done beforehand, but are completely unwilling to do anything about it. Sit back, let the soldiers do what you're afraid to do.

[537]

You're never fought in a war have you? I love how people say they're so willing to wait until America is attacked and then ask why wasn't anything done beforehand, but are completely unwilling to do anything about it. Sit back, let the soldiers do what you're afraid to do.


I don't think Arex had made any comment about being 'willing to wait until America is attacked and then ask why wasn't anything done beforehand'.

Arex's driving force here is freedom of choice. In this great country we have in my opinion, currently a bad leader. If I am understanding Arex correctly, he's stating that being forced to fight this war and quite possibly kill or be killed should not be an option. Frankly, I have to agree with him. As an American born citizen, I believe in freedom of choice to fight where I choose and yes, even face death as I choose. Although I have no power to prevent a madman from leading the country, I do have the power to prevent a madman from sending me to my death. Like Arex, if the U.S. were to be faced with imminent danger, I would fight. But I won't die for Bush and his lies.

[coagulated fat]

You're never fought in a war have you? I love how people say they're so willing to wait until America is attacked and then ask why wasn't anything done beforehand, but are completely unwilling to do anything about it. Sit back, let the soldiers do what you're afraid to do.
Well, who says anything had to be done in the first place?

Given a war I believe in and support and is justifiable in my eyes, I would have no problem being drafted, but I don't think I should have to support a war I never asked for and never believed in. I'd much rather lose my US citizenship than fight for someone else's principles. That isn't a matter of cowardice, it's a matter of personal integrity.

[Arex]

You're never fought in a war have you?
No, I haven't ever fought in a war, nor would I ever like to. But I don't see how that's at all relevant here.

I love how people say they're so willing to wait until America is attacked and then ask why wasn't anything done beforehand, but are completely unwilling to do anything about it.
I don't see how the two are two are incompatible. Yeah, we get pissed when two planes knock down the WTC, and we ask whether it could have been prevented. Everything can be prevented, but at what cost? The question posed was whether I would support a draft for the war in Iraq. As a preemptive measure, I would not support a draft for the reasons I gave above.

Sit back, let the soldiers do what you're afraid to do.
Unfortunately, that's what you guys voluntarily signed up to do. Don't get me wrong, as opposed to the war as I am, I still fully support the soldiers and hope you all make it home safely in the not too distant future. I'm fully aware and appreciative that you brave people are doing the job that 99.9% of us civilians don't have the guts or desire to do. But I see the war and the soldiers who fight it as distinct from one another.

RX

[Bhodi_Li]

*dismisses YW in disgust*

You guys aren't worth my time.

[Kuchana]

You're never fought in a war have you? I love how people say they're so willing to wait until America is attacked and then ask why wasn't anything done beforehand, but are completely unwilling to do anything about it. Sit back, let the soldiers do what you're afraid to do.


It's perfectly understandable how Mike feels and everyone is entitled to their opinions but disregarding whether this war is justified or not, I think it has now gone beyond that. It isn't and nor should it be the sole responsibility of the U.S. any longer to improve the situation. We all need everyone involved. We cannot simply let the situation get any worse than it has already despite our own reservations or what not.

So the U.S. may not have gone in with a pure agenda but then again when is war ever such? We can't deny that there are people dying; the coalition, Iraqis, and others. But at the same time we can't sit back and not do anything about it. I have no problem in going in to fix the problem despite how it was started. What we do now will help to pay off for the betterment of our future in this world.

[537]

*dismisses YW in disgust*

You guys aren't worth my time.


I've had to sit back and read comments like this for quite a while now, sir. It's about time you show other posters the same respect they show you. If you don't think you can handle differing opinions, my advice is to take a breather from this forum and concentrate on what's important. Come home safe and sound.

Remember, no personal attacks.

[ellsworth81]

You're never fought in a war have you? I love how people say they're so willing to wait until America is attacked and then ask why wasn't anything done beforehand, but are completely unwilling to do anything about it. Sit back, let the soldiers do what you're afraid to do.

Not many people do. The draft was unpopular for a reason. Nobody wants to be an aggressor. ... or so I assume.

Good question. What was done beforehand?

Also, what can we the regular person do to support their country without having to risk their life? Do you believe that the only people who deserve freedom are the ones willing to risk their life fighting people who don't like your own government/people?

[SunWuKong]

Folks, being drafted doesn't mean you'll be sent straight to the frontline. Only a small fraction would be qualified to be drafted anyway. If drafted you'd most likely be doing support, supply, logistics and whatnot. So if you're willing to renounce your citizenship and move out of the country just to avoid cleaning latrines, more power to ya.

i believe soldiers who play supporting roles have been captured and/or killed before.

[Kuchana]

i believe soldiers who play supporting roles have been captured and/or killed before.

But what most people fail to realize is that the military is made up of several divisions; Navy, Air Force, Army, and Marines. The Army are the ones who lose the most because they use ground soldiers so the possibility is higher there than the others.

[SunWuKong]

Wow. That's one way to look at it. I bet people who's families die in terrorist attacks would appreciate your honesty and dedication to freedom. I know I sure am.

the question is, are all wars "dedications to freedom"? i personally don't believe the Iraqi war is a dedication to freedom. but i guess that's another discussion altogether.

and sure, aside from differing opinions about the purpose of specific wars, there's also the fact that i don't want to be in a war. i wouldn't really care if i get killed or permanently damaged if i have no relatives and family. but i definitely don't want to get killed or damaged for a war that neither i nor my family believe in. and yes, staying alive for my family and relatives is definitely more important than fighting in a war or a cause i don't believe in.

[achtungbaby]

I love how people say they're so willing to wait until America is attacked and then ask why wasn't anything done beforehand, but are completely unwilling to do anything about it. Sit back, let the soldiers do what you're afraid to do.
Are you saying that we would have been attacked had we not invaded Iraq?

[kuilong]

I have no personal qualms with breaking an unjust law. In fact, in certain circumstances, violating the law may be the only way to protest an unjust law.

Sure, but draft dodging isn't the way to do it. That's like the people who say they download illegal music because they're protesting copyright being a criminal offense, or somesuch. If they really wanted to protest the law, they'd go to a police station, show them the illegal music they downloaded, and turn themselves in. It seems to me that's the only justifiable way to break a law.

I don't think I could ever live with myself if I killed someone else in combat in a cause I do not feel is justifiable in any sense. In fact I know I could never live after that.

In that case, you could probably get CO status, no?

[achtungbaby]

*dismisses YW in disgust*

You guys aren't worth my time.
Hmmm. Obviously most of us cannot presume to know what it's like for you over there and there's certainly a good chance that we don't know what the hell we're talking about...!

I think it all helps to remember that we are in fact a bunch of civilian pukes...!:)

[Arex]

Sure, but draft dodging isn't the way to do it. That's like the people who say they download illegal music because they're protesting copyright being a criminal offense, or somesuch. If they really wanted to protest the law, they'd go to a police station, show them the illegal music they downloaded, and turn themselves in. It seems to me that's the only justifiable way to break a law.
What better way to protest a draft than to refuse to be drafted? I see no other way. I suppose I could wait to be drafted, get sent overseas, and then desert my post, refuse to pull the trigger, go on a hunger strike, etc., but the repercussions from doing that would be far more detrimental to my own wellbeing, as well as that of my fellow soldiers and my country, than if I just turned myself in to the authorities to begin with and let 'em know that I refuse to fight in this ridiculous war with Bush at the helm.

RX

[A.R.A.M.]

Are you saying that we would have been attacked had we not invaded Iraq?

I believe he is. Many neo-conservatives and Reaganites are arguing now that Iraq's nuclear program would have been cranking out nuclear weapons in the near future had the U.S. not invaded. And, as their reasoning goes, since saddam was clearly a mad dictator who hated the U.S., he would have used them against the U.S. I think this is the new justification for the war that we are hearing in the conservative-biased media these days.

Many in the military and the chickenhawks in the government seem to overlook the fact that not all people are sold on the doctrine of preemption. Not supporting it doesn't make people cowards or traitors; it just means they have a different philosophical approach to the appropriate use of force.

Bhodi Li: Is it true that according to military regulations that an officer in the military can be court martialed for speaking out against the President?

[kuilong]

What better way to protest a draft than to refuse to be drafted? I see no other way. I suppose I could wait to be drafted, get sent overseas, and then desert my post, refuse to pull the trigger, go on a hunger strike, etc., but the repercussions from doing that would be far more detrimental to my own wellbeing, as well as that of my fellow soldiers and my country, than if I just turned myself in to the authorities to begin with and let 'em know that I refuse to fight in this ridiculous war with Bush at the helm.

Draft dodging is fleeing to another country to flee the draft. I meant turning yourself over to the authorities -- if you do that, I have no problem with it.

[AngryABCGirl]

In that case, you could probably get CO status, no?
I heard you can apply for it, but it doesn't mean you'll get it.

[kuilong]

I heard you can apply for it, but it doesn't mean you'll get it.

Yah, but if you're sincere, you'll probably get it. You don't need a religious reason or something.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Actually, is draft dodging still a legal reason for the US to revoke your citizenship? I thought that provision was repealed. For Americans overseas ... maybe we'd end up with the same Vietnam-war era system whereby all people with international addresses were placed under a separate draft board which didn't actually draft people. (Bush certainly shows himself to have little problem with the kind of cronyism towards favored constituencies that might lead to such a system for them to avoid the draft, but internationals are not one of those favored constituencies cuz they vote Democratic 2-1).

Even so, I guess most Americans overseas would dodge the draft simply by staying put. Fewer, if they could stay in their country of residence and perform some sort of service with the embassy or at an American base in their country. If you tied passport renewal to draft compliance, you might decrease draft dodging some more, but not much --- most people go get a 10-year passport at age 18, so they're set until they're past draft age; the US government would probably have to start issuing passports of really short validity to people of draft age. On the other hand, that would probably just make a lot more of people apply for citizenship in their country of residence.

The least able to avoid the draft, of course, are the kids who weren't born overseas, but just came there for work, since most haven't been in their country of residence long enough to qualify for citizenship. As much as I support the idea of drafting all the English teachers in Asia, it just shows again that the rich (kids of parents who worked overseas) will have an easier time to evade the draft than the middle class or poor (kids who came to work overseas on their own). I wonder how many people would be willing to become stateless instead of comply with the draft. And how many countries would be willing to issue travel documents to them.

[SunWuKong]

actually a good way to not get drafted is probably to try to get a job with the NSA, CIA, or FBI. that way you're more valuable to them than being out in the field.

[Shinran]

Not worried. Got two bad eyes, horrible knees, grossly overweight, flat feet, bad heart and stupid as a donkey.:biggrin:

[Kuchana]

actually a good way to not get drafted is probably to try to get a job with the NSA, CIA, or FBI. that way you're more valuable to them than being out in the field.

yeah but isn't it overly more difficult to get into those positions???

[SunWuKong]

yeah but isn't it overly more difficult to get into those positions???

that's true.

i was just thinking about what happened with my friend. he's a very smart guy, but he just didn't apply himself in college and got kicked out because he couldn't make the grade. it wasn't even a very difficult school either. he went and joined the army, but somehow he started doing some work with the NSA, and now they don't deploy him on the ground, but instead does work for the NSA. he's been deployed to Iraq twice already doing work for the NSA instead of going out there holding a gun or driving a tank.

[ChinaLama]

Not worried. Got two bad eyes, horrible knees, grossly overweight, flat feet, bad heart and stupid as a donkey.:biggrin:

yeah the army wouldn't enlist me if i paid them money-- my normal reflex response time is about the same as a drunk person's.

[Mr.Lum]

yes. there are enough memebers of my family at war already. I dont feel that this a just war or that I or the rest of the country was ever threatened by Iraq. not to mention my religion does not allow for it. I would prolly file for consciencious objector status. if that did not work, I would leave.

[pfc beansprout]

Bhodi Li: Is it true that according to military regulations that an officer in the military can be court martialed for speaking out against the President?


i'm almost positive we cannot speak out against the pres....honestly, i've (as a fella soldier) been caught bitin my tongue here and in real life for the fear of reprecussions (sp?)..and threatened as a matter of fact.....sucks, no freedom of expression/free speech for me.....

[Mo'Taka]

i'm almost positive we cannot speak out against the pres....honestly, i've (as a fella soldier) been caught bitin my tongue here and in real life for the fear of reprecussions (sp?)..and threatened as a matter of fact.....sucks, no freedom of expression/free speech for me.....

We're here to defend democracy, not practice it....but yeah, it does suck.

[Fireblade]

Quakers can't be drafted from what I was told. But this is of course rumor, and I'm not completely sure why that is... Anyone wanna clarify?

[nonamerasian]

If it's true, maybe they've obtained conscientious objector status on religious/cultural grounds.

[Mo'Taka]

If it's true, maybe they've obtained conscientious objector status on religious/cultural grounds.

What would most likely happen is that that person would get a non-combat job. Usually, it's a really crappy job.

[yoMAMA]

Quakers can't be drafted from what I was told. But this is of course rumor, and I'm not completely sure why that is... Anyone wanna clarify?

cool, i'm a quaker as of today.

[jz87]

I would dodge any draft, simply because I'm not interested in war. Even if I don't get sent into combat, serving in the military would be a waste of my youth. There's definitely better things to do than to serve.

I can't identify my loyalty with anything so anonymous as a nation, I can only identify with individuals. No amount of appeal to selflessness is going to make me serve something that has no face.

[BeTheReds]

I would dodge any draft, simply because I'm not interested in war. Even if I don't get sent into combat, serving in the military would be a waste of my youth. There's definitely better things to do than to serve.

I can't identify my loyalty with anything so anonymous as a nation, I can only identify with individuals. No amount of appeal to selflessness is going to make me serve something that has no face.


Army ain't for everyone!

[A.R.A.M.]

I would dodge any draft, simply because I'm not interested in war. Even if I don't get sent into combat, serving in the military would be a waste of my youth. There's definitely better things to do than to serve.



Reminds me of Dick Ch3l\l3y's (homage to Krome) excuse for not going to Vietnam: "I had other priorities."

[onnihs]

I've already served 3 years. And if the Army called me up again, I'd go in a jiffy. It's my duty as a citizen.

And it's every other person's duty as a citizen as well. If you don't like it, then leave. Plain and simple.

How can one rake in the benefits of such a great nation yet shit on it when it calls for help?

Everyone's lucky that we have an all-volunteer military force. The least we can do is come help out when the shit hits the fan.

[Faithless]

I think there should have been a "it depends" choice. Because that's what it would come down to for me.

If I were around during WWII, I might have went. Look at all the history. Internment. Proving loyalty. 442, "go for broke". It seemed the choice was obvious.

Afghanistan. We certainly thought we knew the enemy.

But knowing what we know now about other wars -- Korea, Vietnam, Iraq -- I don't know. Maybe not draft dodging, but conscientous objector (?). Everything about these wars are debatable, especially our reasons for having been / being there.

It's one thing to say you'll die for your country. Admirable. It's another to know why and stand behind the reasoning with all your might.

[Emperor_Mike]

I think there should have been a "it depends" choice. Because that's what it would come down to for me.

If I were around during WWII, I might have went. Look at all the history. Internment. Proving loyalty. 442, "go for broke". It seemed the choice was obvious.

Afghanistan. We certainly thought we knew the enemy.

But knowing what we know now about other wars -- Korea, Vietnam, Iraq -- I don't know. Maybe not draft dodging, but conscientous objector (?). Everything about these wars are debatable, especially our reasons for having been / being there.

It's one thing to say you'll die for your country. Admirable. It's another to know why and stand behind the reasoning with all your might.


I think for most people it would fall under a situation of "it depends." Pacifists say that no one should fight and will likely stand by and do nothing even as national survival is on the line. Realists will fight if the cause is just and everyone else will fight no matter what either because they don't care or it's simply a job that must be done. I hope that those of us who did not choose the military as a career option will have the common sense to see that when the state you call home is being attacked a measure of self defence is necessary and if that means having to give some time to the armed forces then so be it. At the end of the day aggression aimed toward your nation will affect you personally since you and your friends and family are part of the state. To shrink away from the duty to defend your home soil is pure cowardice in my opinion.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

And it's every other person's duty as a citizen as well. If you don't like it, then leave.
I did leave. They still won't stop taxing me. Oh yeah, and from the State Department at http://travel.state.gov/renunciation.html:
Also, persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should also be aware that the fact that a person has renounced U.S. citizenship may have no effect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations (contact the Internal Revenue Service or U.S. Selective Service for more information).

Plenty of other great countries out there besides the USA. Some arguably better.

[VV o n g B a]

How can one rake in the benefits of such a great nation yet shit on it when it calls for help?
speaking purely hypothetically, it's very easy. not honorable perhaps, but very easy.

[Faithless]

I think for most people it would fall under a situation of "it depends." Pacifists say that no one should fight and will likely stand by and do nothing even as national survival is on the line. Realists will fight if the cause is just and everyone else will fight no matter what either because they don't care or it's simply a job that must be done. I hope that those of us who did not choose the military as a career option will have the common sense to see that when the state you call home is being attacked a measure of self defence is necessary and if that means having to give some time to the armed forces then so be it. At the end of the day aggression aimed toward your nation will affect you personally since you and your friends and family are part of the state. To shrink away from the duty to defend your home soil is pure cowardice in my opinion.
But as Bhodi_Li tried to argue, does that include taking the good fight overseas, if you think that will prevent war from coming to your shores?

[Emperor_Mike]

But as Bhodi_Li tried to argue, does that include taking the good fight overseas, if you think that will prevent war from coming to your shores?

Again, that would depend on the circumstances. If there is sufficient evidence that the hostile nation in question is about to attack (e.g. suppose the Soviet Union had good reason to believe that Hitler would launch Barbarossa a few months before he actually did and invaded Germany first) I don't see any reason against exercising the pre-emptive strike doctrine. However, as with Iraq where the proof in question was hastily thrown to the world without any real solid backing other than intelligence that was either a decade old or simply faulty, attacking first wouldn't amount to any sort of legitimate defensive measure that I'd advocate. Had there been sufficient proof/reason to believe that Saddam Hussein was about to sponsor an attack or utilise weapons that we now know he did not have at the time, then going to war in Iraq would've been justified.

The biggest problem with warhawks, chickenhawks, and doves is that very rarely will they look beyond ideology to view a situation as it is and not as they wish for it to be. Functioning in a world where everything is as simple as Black and White and Good and Evil is but a fantasy, yet many fail to recognise this and persist in attempting to categorise events and decisions in such a manner as to render things far easier to comprehend than reality dictates.

[SunWuKong]

I did leave. They still won't stop taxing me.


declare that you are no longer a resident of whatever state you were (unless it's a state with no state income tax), and then underreport your earnings. they usually won't audit you.

[onnihs]

I did leave. They still won't stop taxing me. Oh yeah, and from the State Department at http://travel.state.gov/renunciation.html:


Plenty of other great countries out there besides the USA. Some arguably better.

I totally respect that. It's too bad uncle sammy still has his grasp around your finances though. I hope you can get that shit taken care of likity split!

[Mr.Lum]

I did leave. They still won't stop taxing me. Oh yeah, and from the State Department at http://travel.state.gov/renunciation.html:


Plenty of other great countries out there besides the USA. Some arguably better.
why can they still tax you?

[coagulated fat]

I think there should have been a "it depends" choice. Because that's what it would come down to for me.

If I were around during WWII, I might have went. Look at all the history. Internment. Proving loyalty. 442, "go for broke". It seemed the choice was obvious.
If it was WW2, I wouldn't have gone, out of outrage at the assumption that I am a foreigner who has to "prove my loyalty" in a nation I was born in.

[Faithless]

If it was WW2, I wouldn't have gone, out of outrage at the assumption that I am a foreigner who has to "prove my loyalty" in a nation I was born in.
I can understand that sentiment, especially when Japanese Americans were losing their homes, at that!

So, you go to war, and what do you come home too?

But I guess the frame of mind was one of pride, like, "I can do what those fuckers do to prove my loyalty!"

Incidentally, for a college paper, I interviewed a man who says that his neighbors did a tremendously nice thing and kept these his family's home for them, while they went to camp.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

why can they still tax you?
U.S. law. All citizens worldwide are subject to tax on income from all sources (less an $80,000 exemption if you spent more than 330 days outside the US or can prove that your primary residence is in a foreign country).

If you don't pay taxes, then they can catch you when you go back into the US. Seeing as I'd still like to go visit my relatives/friends, make trips to my company's New York offices, etc., it probably wouldn't be a good idea to stop filing US tax returns (though I don't actually owe any money due to the exemption).

If you give up US citizenship when your average income is more than $100,000 or your net worth is more than $500,000, you're automatically presumed to have given up citizenship for the purpose of evading taxes, and the IRS can choose to continue to tax you for 10 years.

Also, even after you've given up US citizenship and naturalized somewhere else, the BHS/INS boys at the airport will apparently give you a lot of shit if your foreign passport shows you have a US birthplace. Some countries are more flexible than others about not putting the birthplace in the passport.

[SunWuKong]

though I don't actually owe any money due to the exemption


how about state income tax? an old colleague of mine in HK had to conjure proof that he's no longer a resident of California in order to avoid Cali state tax.

[Mr.Lum]

U.S. law. All citizens worldwide are subject to tax on income from all sources (less an $80,000 exemption if you spent more than 330 days outside the US or can prove that your primary residence is in a foreign country).

If you don't pay taxes, then they can catch you when you go back into the US. Seeing as I'd still like to go visit my relatives/friends, make trips to my company's New York offices, etc., it probably wouldn't be a good idea to stop filing US tax returns (though I don't actually owe any money due to the exemption).

If you give up US citizenship when your average income is more than $100,000 or your net worth is more than $500,000, you're automatically presumed to have given up citizenship for the purpose of evading taxes, and the IRS can choose to continue to tax you for 10 years.

Also, even after you've given up US citizenship and naturalized somewhere else, the BHS/INS boys at the airport will apparently give you a lot of shit if your foreign passport shows you have a US birthplace. Some countries are more flexible than others about not putting the birthplace in the passport.

that sucks. how about if you have dual citizenship uptil 18 and you chose the nonAmerican citizenship? will they tax you anyway?

[achtungbaby]

Merged with the other thread on military service.

[Fireblade]

cool, i'm a quaker as of today.

Actually from what I've heard, they can be drafted, but you won't see combat. Basically if you belong to the "Society of Friends" (Quakers), then you are placed in the conscientious objector category. You might fall into medics or you'll be placed to civil service agencies such as the U.S. Department of the Interior.

[Mr.Lum]

I want civil service.

Id do that anyway.

[Faithless]

I would dodge any draft, simply because I'm not interested in war. Even if I don't get sent into combat, serving in the military would be a waste of my youth. There's definitely better things to do than to serve.

I can't identify my loyalty with anything so anonymous as a nation, I can only identify with individuals. No amount of appeal to selflessness is going to make me serve something that has no face.
Would a true conservative dodge the draft?

[rotrab]

If it was WW2, I wouldn't have gone, out of outrage at the assumption that I am a foreigner who has to "prove my loyalty" in a nation I was born in.

That's exactly why the Japanese-Americans joined and fought. They HAD to prove it. It took away any criticism that could be offered of them. Even today, the Michelle Malkins out there only hurt their own image trying to revise history.

Btw, I know someone white whose best friend was Japanese during the war. She said white people went into Japanese people's houses and threw everything out the windows and whites outside made off with whatever they wanted. One Japanese lady was a pianist and she could not bear the thought of assholes stealing her beloved piano so she rolled it out on a pier and dumped it in the water.

This lady I know says she never saw her friend again.

[Chad]

Maybe if my country treated me as a first-class citizen I would fight in a defensive war that was just. I don't feel like I'm a real member of the team here, if you know what I mean. Why should I fight for it? My government doesn't give a crap about me and I really don't think this society does either. I'm only loyal to my family and friends.
As for the wealth and resources, I could do without a lot of it. Most of it isn't shared anyways. The USA has the greatest inequality of wealth distribution among all modern industrialized states. I don't drive cars and I get a lot of my food from local growers on Tuesdays and Saturdays at the farmer's market.
These people get on their soapbox about how we all need to serve our country since we benefit from its domination-- fuck them. Rich old white men benefit from that, not me.
In light of these facts, I wouldn't fight even if someone invaded the USA. I'd take my rifles to the woods and wait it out; wait for the next criminal regime to be installed.

[rotrab]

I get terrified when I get shot at. There's no shame in that.


By that time it's already too late. You and your family are dead because nobody stopped them before they entered the country.

This next part is a general comment and not directed at AzNBuffGrL

As long as everyone's willing to give up our current standard of living and let global economics/politics determine our path and not the other way around, I say don't serve.

Americans know nothing about selfless service for their country. They're only interested in how it benefits them. How can a government "serve" you without your support? Is there a magical pool of worker drones that the government clones or is it the everyday citizen that makes the government function?

I believe there should be a required term of government service after HS/college. You can have your choice of military, public service, law enforcement, etc, but every citizen should be required to give something back to his/her country. Of course that would NEVER happen because none of you really owe anything back right? Everything you have is what you deserve and are entitled to. Every freedom and luxury, you have earned by the very fact of your existence. If it is in jeopardy then the government should do something about it, but they shouldn't expect you to sacrifice for it, because you've earned every bit of it.

And if you would serve, there would have to be a clause that says, if you as the citizen don't agree with the course of action, then you're free to go, b/c if you don't agree with it, why should you do it?

You're exactly right. Americans are spoiled little brats and total cowards. Someone should have told Bush you can't go to war when the men of your nation are chickenshit sissies too afraid to get their hands dirty.

One guy actually told me that he won't go because it is a violation of his constitutional rights. I informed him that the Constitution gives Congress the power to implement a draft but it was still a "clear violation" anyway.

When your nation calls on you, folks, you shut the fuck up and you go. If that doesn't sit right with you--get out--you don't belong here. This country belongs to those who fought for it and that excludes you.

This idea that you don't have to do a fucking thing you don't agree with tells me none of you saying this have jobs. Let me clue you in: at work, you have to do all kinds of things you don't agree with. If you refuse, you fucking get fired and that makes it somewhat difficult to pay bills and survive and not be living on the streets--which not a one of you I believe could succeed at beyond a couple of hours.

You do what your nation asks of you--that's the deal whether your ass thinks it is or not. No one cares whether you agree--that has nothing to do with anything. I fucking hate this war and Bush but even I think you have to do what your nation asks of you no matter how you feel about it. That's your obligation as a citizen of this country. If you don't like it, you're free to leave.

[Chad]

You're exactly right. Americans are spoiled little brats and total cowards. Someone should have told Bush you can't go to war when the men of your nation are chickenshit sissies too afraid to get their hands dirty.

One guy actually told me that he won't go because it is a violation of his constitutional rights. I informed him that the Constitution gives Congress the power to implement a draft but it was still a "clear violation" anyway.

When your nation calls on you, folks, you shut the fuck up and you go. If that doesn't sit right with you--get out--you don't belong here. This country belongs to those who fought for it and that excludes you.

This idea that you don't have to do a fucking thing you don't agree with tells me none of you saying this have jobs. Let me clue you in: at work, you have to do all kinds of things you don't agree with. If you refuse, you fucking get fired and that makes it somewhat difficult to pay bills and survive and not be living on the streets--which not a one of you I believe could succeed at beyond a couple of hours.

You do what your nation asks of you--that's the deal whether your ass thinks it is or not. No one cares whether you agree--that has nothing to do with anything. I fucking hate this war and Bush but even I think you have to do what your nation asks of you no matter how you feel about it. That's your obligation as a citizen of this country. If you don't like it, you're free to leave.
Sorry but you're wrong. I have 2 jobs; one full-time and one part-time. Your shit-talking smacks of the kind of garbage that some new recruits will spew. They never say the same thing when they get back home from the war.. if they do get home alive.
I understand that many countries have conscripted armies.. it's not necessary in the US because there are so many volunteers. I will assume that given your position on this issue, you would agree that soldiers cannot be blamed for "war crimes" and that it is only their superiors who gave the orders that are to be blamed and punished. It's their duty to join up and follow orders, right?
And the enemy soldiers believe the same.. it's their duty to fight for their country or group of interest. So they go to war and you go to war. In the meantime, there's people in both countries who think the war is stupid and refuse to participate. It's only because of people with your attitude that there are any wars at all. If some crazies in Al-Qaeda hadn't thought about their "duty" to their people and their God, they wouldn't have crashed planes on 9-11 and there wouldn't be a war even happening right now.
So, in short, the war is your fault. You. You should go die in the battlefield to be redeemed for it. It's your duty. Go ahead, big man. Show us what you got. Impress all the ladies. Do us all a favor and get snuffed.

[rotrab]

Sorry but you're wrong. I have 2 jobs; one full-time and one part-time. Your shit-talking smacks of the kind of garbage that some new recruits will spew. They never say the same thing when they get back home from the war.. if they do get home alive.

I'm ex-military, sir. I did time in the Middle East. No one should be forced to go there again and again while many more have never gone there even once but expect others to die fighting over there so as not to embarrass Americans. That makes me sick.

I understand that many countries have conscripted armies..

Yesh, virtually nation in the Coalition other than the US.

it's not necessary in the US because there are so many volunteers. I will assume that given your position on this issue, you would agree that soldiers cannot be blamed for "war crimes" and that it is only their superiors who gave the orders that are to be blamed and punished. It's their duty to join up and follow orders, right?

According to military rules, you do NOT follow orders that you KNOW are illegal. You don't perform them and then say you were following orders. You are to refuse from the outset on the basis that you consider the order illegal. But I agree that the suniors need to be charged and so does Rumsfeld. The higher up you are the harder you have to fall--and that's military protocol as well. As for the size of the army--no there are not enough volunteers. common sense. They're holding people passed their EAOS and sending people back 2 or 3 times. Obviously, there are not enough people. If it wasn't for the Coalition (which is fragmenting) there would already be a draft.

And the enemy soldiers believe the same.. it's their duty to fight for their country or group of interest. So they go to war and you go to war. In the meantime, there's people in both countries who think the war is stupid and refuse to participate. It's only because of people with your attitude that there are any wars at all. If some crazies in Al-Qaeda hadn't thought about their "duty" to their people and their God, they wouldn't have crashed planes on 9-11 and there wouldn't be a war even happening right now.

Of course, there would. Bush would have invaded Iraq no matter what. He was bound and determined to do it. Read those British memos. Washington was primed for invasion and was not even talking about what would happen later. Read the memos, they are quite eye-opening.

If it weren't for people like me, there would be no credible opposition to the war. It's when vets of a conflict speak out against it that people listen. The rest of you just sound like sissies too afraid to do your duty.

So, in short, the war is your fault. You. You should go die in the battlefield to be redeemed for it. It's your duty. Go ahead, big man. Show us what you got. Impress all the ladies. Do us all a favor and get snuffed.

I have opposed the war from the beginning. I appeared to be one of the few online in 2002 voicing opposition to it. I was called a "faggot" back then because I "would let the terrorists get away." Now, I still stand against the war and now I'm being blamed for it.

My concern is for the troops over there. They've been there long enough. It's someone else's turn to go. It should fall on people who haven't yet done anything. I've been there and if they called on me to go again, I will go again. You haven't even been there once. The idea that you shouldn't have to because you oppose the war is bullshit.

[kuilong]

Yesh, virtually nation in the Coalition other than the US.

Of the top twenty military contributors right now in Iraq, five (South Korea, Poland, Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria) have mandatory conscription. If you include all 48 members of the coalition (almost half of which have no military presence in Iraq at all), the proportion is even lower.

To paraphrase Galloway, "By no stretch of the English language can that be described as 'virtually [every] nation in the Coalition.'"

[rotrab]

^^Even five--a quarter of the nations there--having a draft makes the US look disgraceful. We look like what we are--soft, obese, cowardly little fags expecting everyone else to die for our bullshit but us.

We started this war and when you start wars you'd better have a draft instead of relying on other nations with a draft to pull our tiny testicles out of the fire.

If you're not going to fight in the war because you oppose it then you need to be off your ass and out in the street protesting and clashing with cops and getting arrested. If you're not going to do that, then you need to be drafted to go fight in this war and help out your fellow Americans who are dying over there. If you can't be bothered to do that, then you need to shut the fuck up and get the fuck out of my country.

And if you've never been there, there is no credible reason why I should should be sent back there before you go even once. That's bullshit. Guys in college pulling their little puds while family men in their 40s are being sent to Iraq two or three mandatory times is bullshit. That Americans would tolerate this and not say anything UNLESS their coward asses got drafted makes me fucking retch!

[Arex]

We started this war and when you start wars you'd better have a draft instead of relying on other nations with a draft to pull our tiny testicles out of the fire.Correction, Bush, his fucked up administration, and those that voted for that asshole are the ones that started this war. For the life of me, I can't figure out why the hell men and women in the military and their families, with the most to lose because of this war, would actually vote to re-elect the very man that placed them and their loved ones in harms way based on a lie.

If you're not going to fight in the war because you oppose it then you need to be off your ass and out in the street protesting and clashing with cops and getting arrested. If you're not going to do that, then you need to be drafted to go fight in this war and help out your fellow Americans who are dying over there. If you can't be bothered to do that, then you need to shut the fuck up and get the fuck out of my country.I'm not a member of our volunteer armed forces. Since I'm not a soldier, why the hell should I fight in the war whether I'm for it or opposed to it?

And if you've never been there, there is no credible reason why I should should be sent back there before you go even once.There's an extremely "credible" reason why you should go back (assuming you have yet to fulfill your obligations), even if others such as myself haven't gone: you made the conscious decision to join the military and have a contractual obligation to go. Others did not. It's really as simple as that.

That's bullshit. Guys in college pulling their little puds while family men in their 40s are being sent to Iraq two or three mandatory times is bullshit. That Americans would tolerate this and not say anything UNLESS their coward asses got drafted makes me fucking retch!Again, those family men in their 40s that are being called up out of the reserves to fight in Iraq? They too made the conscious decision to join the military. That's not my or anyone else's fault. Personally, I would never join the military because of bullshit wars like Iraq which make it clear that the government does not value the lives of its soldiers enough to make sure war is justified. I do agree with you on one point: if more people--particularly those in power--stood to lose loved ones in this war, we would not be in this mess because the war would never have been started in the first place. If the Bush daughters would have been sent to Iraq, Bush would have stood by his word to only use war as a last resort.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

If you can't be bothered to do that, then you need to shut the fuck up and get the fuck out of my country.
Just as an FYI for everyone, under the Selective Service Act, even if you leave the US and give up your citizenship, you could still be drafted. No ex-US citizen has ever been deported back to the US for failing to fulfill his obligations under SSA, but theoretically, for example, if you showed up in the US voluntarily, you could still be drafted or arrested for failing to respond to the draft.

[Chad]

I DISAGREE WITH THE WAR BUT I WAS STUPID ENOUGH TO SIGN UP TO VOLUNTEER TO FIGHT AND NOW YOU SHOULD TOO SO I DONT FEEL SO DUMB ABOUT IT.

I'm definitely going to sign up for the military now that it's been explained to me on the forum that if I don't it means I'm not a real man and I have small testicles. Good God, why didn't I realize this before? Time to be a man. USA! USA! Kill kill kill! Thank you, rotrab, for explaining this to me.

[rotrab]

Correction, Bush, his fucked up administration, and those that voted for that asshole are the ones that started this war.

It doesn't matter! We're all in this together. We go together or we go not at all.

That's democracy or is that only for countries we invade?

For the life of me, I can't figure out why the hell men and women in the military and their families, with the most to lose because of this war, would actually vote to re-elect the very man that placed them and their loved ones in harms way based on a lie.

Cuz they stupid! We need smarter people in the military and the only way to get them there is to draft cuz they know better than to volunteer.

I'm not a member of our volunteer armed forces. Since I'm not a soldier, why the hell should I fight in the war whether I'm for it or opposed to it?

I never said you had to fight in it. I never said you should volunteer. I want a draft. Whatever they do with your ass after its been drafted is of no concern to me. Just as long as you do what your country required of you.

There's an extremely "credible" reason why you should go back (assuming you have yet to fulfill your obligations), even if others such as myself haven't gone: you made the conscious decision to join the military and have a contractual obligation to go. Others did not. It's really as simple as that.

Again, no one is arguing that. Least of all me. I want a draft. A draft. No voulunteer army. Volunteer armies are bullshit. I want a REAL army of conscripted soldiers who hate what they are doing every minute of the day.

Again, those family men in their 40s that are being called up out of the reserves to fight in Iraq? They too made the conscious decision to join the military. That's not my or anyone else's fault.

No one is saying it is your fault. I'm saying America has turned into an overweight, fast-food stuffing, couch potato, Star Wars-watching bunch of pop culture candy-ass sissies. We talk big and loud and but expect others to back up our bravado. That's why we're losing the war.

Personally, I would never join the military because of bullshit wars like Iraq which make it clear that the government does not value the lives of its soldiers enough to make sure war is justified.

Which is precisely why we need a draft. Most people feel the same as you. That's why volunteer armies are bullshit.

I do agree with you on one point: if more people--particularly those in power--stood to lose loved ones in this war, we would not be in this mess because the war would never have been started in the first place.

Precisely. Drafts actually prevent unnecessary wars. If war is inevitable, drafts prevent unnecessary deaths. What deaths there are will at least have been fair. Everyone did their part and some didn't come home. That's a lot more acceptable than the SAME FUCKING PEOPLE going back over and over again until they get killed.

If the Bush daughters would have been sent to Iraq, Bush would have stood by his word to only use war as a last resort.

Which is why we need a draft.

Just as an FYI for everyone, under the Selective Service Act, even if you leave the US and give up your citizenship, you could still be drafted. No ex-US citizen has ever been deported back to the US for failing to fulfill his obligations under SSA, but theoretically, for example, if you showed up in the US voluntarily, you could still be drafted or arrested for failing to respond to the draft.

Well, fuck, man, I never said you weren't draft-dodger if you refuse to go. Of course, you can't come back home after you evade the draft and if you did, I'd be the first one to turn your ass in. Once you run, stay out. You made someone else take your rightful turn and for that you should NEVER be allowed back in under any circumstances.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

^Why would you want an army consisting mostly of people that don't wanna be there? Sounds like suicide to me, I think you're just pretty much stating this out of bitterness and some type of pent-up anger (as usual) because pure logic would state that such an idea would suck major dick. In fact, all your posts reek of contempt and anger. Having personal issues doesn't justify taking it out on everybody else. I'm guessing you'd be the willing poster boy for those two liberal Democrats that introduced those two bills to reinstate the draft as a scare tactic towards Republicans a few years ago.

If you don't like it here, why don't you move out of this country of I quote "cowardly fags". Such terminology shows you're clearly a hypocrite to your so-called desire to end white oppression towards minorities, and is probably another reason why everyone has trouble taking you seriously in addition to your habit of clearly allowing your emotions to take over whenever you decide to write anything.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Well, fuck, man, I never said you weren't draft-dodger if you refuse to go. Of course, you can't come back home after you evade the draft and if you did, I'd be the first one to turn your ass in. Once you run, stay out. You made someone else take your rightful turn and for that you should NEVER be allowed back in under any circumstances.
That assumes someone gives up his citizenship precisely because he was hoping to avoid the draft. But a lot of people give up their US citizenship for other reasons (e.g. a dual citizen who is approaching an age at which his other nation imposes an obligation on him to choose a single citizenship). Let's say a guy who was born on US soil, but grew up overseas with foreign citizenship, is studying in the US and turns 18. So he registers for the Selective Service, since by virtue of being born in the US, he's a US citizen. At age 20, a deadline imposed on him by the foreign country, he decides that he'd like to have his foreign citizenship (because he plans to go back there and work in the future, because he's more patriotic about that country, whatever), and remains in the US on a student visa in order to finish his degree. Regardless of his reason for giving up his citizenship, he's still subject to the draft. There's no way for him to "unregister" from Selective Service. Whereas other foreigners just like him would be free to come and go merely because they didn't happen to hold US citizenship.

In practice if there were a draft, I'm guessing policy decisions might be made to iron out that kind of unfairness. But that's kind of a thin guarantee when the laws on the subject are so twisted. Also, there's no real precedent for those kinds of policy decisions, so it could blow either way ... at the time of the last draft, after all, dual citizenship was a phenomenon restricted mainly to the rich/internationally mobile, who probably registered for SS either from addresses in fancy zipcodes, or from an overseas address --- in either case, under draft boards which weren't exactly calling up every guy they could find.

[jz87]

hire mercenaries.

[Fireblade]

My concern is for the troops over there. They've been there long enough. It's someone else's turn to go. It should fall on people who haven't yet done anything. I've been there and if they called on me to go again, I will go again. You haven't even been there once. The idea that you shouldn't have to because you oppose the war is bullshit.

Well perhaps the troops would love that, and if they sent over an army of just out of high school kids who didn't want to be there in the first place... it'd just turn out like Vietnam again. The draft proved to be demoralizing, because it would be an army of people who didn't want to be there in the first place. That's why they did away with the draft, after much protest from veterans. If they impose a draft, the same outcome would come out from them. I'm against the war. But the idea that we don't do ANYTHING for the war is bullshit. If I pay taxes, what funds the war? My money. And Joe's money. And Jane's money. Whoever. It doesn't need to fall upon those who haven't supposedly done anything to fight in the war. The ones who should be fighting in the war, are the ones who petitioned it in the first place. The ones that signed up, are more likely to fight, than the ones who never wanted to be there in the first place. If anything, veterans of the Iraq War, and the ones still currently in service, should go around legislation, protesting the war, and it's long service terms, instead of bitching to civilizans that we need to do our part by fighting. Sorry, I already pay taxes to my government. If I didn't sign up to fight, I ain't willing to die for my country just cuz they say I should.

[rotrab]

Well perhaps the troops would love that, and if they sent over an army of just out of high school kids who didn't want to be there in the first place... it'd just turn out like Vietnam again.

I hope you understand this statement of yours requires a great deal of explaining.

The draft proved to be demoralizing, because it would be an army of people who didn't want to be there in the first place.

And what makes you think most of the soldiers there now want to be there?? I was one of them at one time and I sure as hell didn't want to be there. I wanted to be anyplace but there.

That's why they did away with the draft, after much protest from veterans.

The draft was eliminated because we lost the war. A country does stupid insane things when it loses a war. As you're going to learn all over again in a couple of years if we don't get a draft going and stop that hemorrhage called the Iraq War.

If they impose a draft, the same outcome would come out from them. I'm against the war. But the idea that we don't do ANYTHING for the war is bullshit. If I pay taxes, what funds the war? My money. And Joe's money. And Jane's money. Whoever.

And MY money. And yet I still went there.

It doesn't need to fall upon those who haven't supposedly done anything to fight in the war. The ones who should be fighting in the war, are the ones who petitioned it in the first place.

That's America, jack. We all have to take the bullet for it whether we favor the war or not, whether we voted for Bush or not. It's our burden whether we want it or not.

The ones that signed up, are more likely to fight, than the ones who never wanted to be there in the first place.

It's the people who don't want to be there that you want to send over. They will do only what is required and do it by the book because they want to get it over with and have nothing to prove--the perfect soldier. It's the overzealous GI Joe ninnies who think America can do no wrong and Americans can act any damn way they want to that have embarrassed the US in Iraq.

Look back through history and tell me how many civilizations with professional militaries lasted very long? The only ones that did switched over to conscript armies. Japan is a perfect example.

If anything, veterans of the Iraq War, and the ones still currently in service, should go around legislation, protesting the war, and it's long service terms, instead of bitching to civilizans that we need to do our part by fighting

Sorry but it's those same civilians that voted this cocksucker back in office. It's those same civilians who cheer this war on just so long as they don't have to fight in it. We vets want to remind you that's people's lives that are being played with. Go play with your own first and then you'll understand what I'm trying to tell you.

Sorry, I already pay taxes to my government. If I didn't sign up to fight, I ain't willing to die for my country just cuz they say I should.

I don't want you to volunteer. That's the last thing I want. I want you drafted. I want it mandatory. I want it so that you either go or you flee the country. When our nation starts a war, we consent to fight in it if we remain silent. We have remained silent therefore we should get drafted. We should be MADE to go. We should be made to see up close what we are supporting.

^Why would you want an army consisting mostly of people that don't wanna be there?

Because people who don't want to be there will do the minimum required and do it by the book. That's what you want. You don't want guys who do what they want because he's a god walking amidst the lowly Iraqis and he's going to make sure they know it. You want to guys who don't care about that stupid shit. You want guys who show, do their jobs and go home. When you're told that you can't go home despite the fact that your enlistment is officially expired what do you think that does to morale?? What do you think that guy wantsd to do to the next iraqi he runs across? Ten times worse than a draft.

Sounds like suicide to me,

No, if you want to see a country committing suicide, take a look at how America is trying to fight this war currently. That's suicide.

I think you're just pretty much stating this out of bitterness and some type of pent-up anger (as usual) because pure logic would state that such an idea would suck major dick.

It would suck for you if you got drafted. It wouldn't suck for the nation as a whole.

In fact, all your posts reek of contempt and anger. Having personal issues doesn't justify taking it out on everybody else. I'm guessing you'd be the willing poster boy for those two liberal Democrats that introduced those two bills to reinstate the draft as a scare tactic towards Republicans a few years ago.

If they were serious about it, I would gladly be the poster boy. They weren't serious though. They were just reminded people of what they were opening the door for if they didn't get Iraq quickly under control and we didn't. So we will either draft or we will pull out. Right now, I'm guessing we will evenutally draft. I think most Americans would prefer that to pulling out judging from all the bravado I'm hearing from people who figure they won't have to worry about going.

If you don't like it here, why don't you move out of this country of I quote "cowardly fags".

Because, unlike you, I fought for it. I have a stake in it. What do you have?

Such terminology shows you're clearly a hypocrite to your so-called desire to end white oppression towards minorities, and is probably another reason why everyone has trouble taking you seriously in addition to your habit of clearly allowing your emotions to take over whenever you decide to write anything.

Can't stick to the issues and settle for personal attacks. well, you can insinuate all you want but everyone of you knows deep down that I'm right. That's what you hate. But that's good. That makes me smile. Precious little else does.