Beating Mail-Order Asian Bride = Hate Crime? [Archive]

kitty

04-28-2004, 10:44 AM

so, using the hypothetical that i brought up before, if a non-asian man "loved" asian women so much that he wanted to rape every single one that he caught sight of, should that not be labelled a hate crime since he does not hate them?

well, i don't know if this analogy fits, because you would have to investigate exactly what the man's motivation was for getting a mail-order bride -- was it specifically to find an easy target to hit? Or was it something else entirely? What about a penpal bride -- not exactly mail order but still Asian?

With the rapist scenario, the man is specifically targetting Asian women for a crime, and has established this history of racial preference. There is an arguable hate crime possibility in that. I find it harder to establish such a motive if you have a guy beating up on his wife... without establishing the motivation that he fosters some sort of belief about Asian women in relation to that crime.

I didn't say it's impossible for it to be a hate crime -- but that hate crimes can and should be considered on a case-by-case basis, and not judged based on the identity of the victim alone.

also, just for the record as jing brought up, the vincent chin case was not initially seen as a hate crime and it is arguable whether it was "pretty squarely race-based" considering it started out as a barfight over a stripper, no?

True, but it was also later determined that his beating with a baseball bat was racially motivated because of his use of racial slurs, and that he sought vincent out after the fight was pretty much over. If you're hitting someone over the head and saying 'damn chink'... that's pretty solidly racially motivated.

If you could establish similar circumstances in the domestic abuse case, then I say that you have a pretty good case for a hate crime.

kitty

04-28-2004, 10:46 AM

I'm not so much caught up un the definitions. As long as it can help to stop the occurance call it whatever you like. I'm dumb about law so I really wouldn't know how it would help these cases but like I said if labeling it as "hate crime" helps to prevent this happening to these women them I'm all for it.

well -- does it? not to be contrary, but is there proof that hate crime legislation prevents hate crimes?

Mo'Taka

04-28-2004, 10:52 AM

well -- does it? not to be contrary, but is there proof that hate crime legislation prevents hate crimes?

No there isn't, but then again, is there proof that the death penalty prevents violent murders? I think mandatory sentencing like that is designed to punish and remove that individual out of society rather than preventing new crimes. But I'm probably wrong and just trying to make reason out of those laws.

rice cracker

04-28-2004, 10:52 AM

sandra

04-28-2004, 10:57 AM

well, i don't know if this analogy fits, because you would have to investigate exactly what the man's motivation was for getting a mail-order bride -- was it specifically to find an easy target to hit? Or was it something else entirely? What about a penpal bride -- not exactly mail order but still Asian?

With the rapist scenario, the man is specifically targetting Asian women for a crime, and has established this history of racial preference. There is an arguable hate crime possibility in that. I find it harder to establish such a motive if you have a guy beating up on his wife... without establishing the motivation that he fosters some sort of belief about Asian women in relation to that crime.

I didn't say it's impossible for it to be a hate crime -- but that hate crimes can and should be considered on a case-by-case basis, and not judged based on the identity of the victim alone.

certainly, i don't believe anyone is saying that, on its own, any given crime could be labelled as a per se hate crime. that would be absurd.

achtungbaby

04-28-2004, 11:09 AM

SunWuKong

04-28-2004, 11:12 AM

kitty

04-28-2004, 11:13 AM

No there isn't, but then again, is there proof that the death penalty prevents violent murders? I think mandatory sentencing like that is designed to punish and remove that individual out of society rather than preventing new crimes. But I'm probably wrong and just trying to make reason out of those laws.

lol. i'm anti-death penalty. :)

sandra

04-28-2004, 11:14 AM

I'm sure this has been referenced already somewhere, but the Hate Crime Statistics Act of 1990 defines that hate/bias crimes "manifest evidence of prejudice based on race, religion, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, including where appropriate the crimes of murder, non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, aggravated assault, simple assault, intimidation, arson, and destruction, damage, or vandalism of property."

i think there is manifest evidence in some of my cases.

i read about one case where this african-amer male married several asian girls through the mail order system (one after the other).

they all have restraining orders against him now.

all seven of them.

he stalks all of them each day & when they call the police to enforce their restraining order, he's already disappeared off to find the next ex-wife.

he should get a real job.

and yes, he is violent.

BigLew

04-28-2004, 11:15 AM

well -- does it? not to be contrary, but is there proof that hate crime legislation prevents hate crimes?
Not saying that it does, I was posing that question and stating if it does then it should.

kitty

04-28-2004, 11:15 AM

Choosing the bride is racially motivated, after selecting her from a catalog, anything that happens after that is based on the racial perception that went into making the purchase.

Edit: I'm not sure if that supports anything. Just typing out loud, I guess.

maybe i'm not familiar enough with the clientele of the mail-order bride system, but is it necessarily racially motivated?

i mean, i would think that the people who decide to become a part of that system (both husbands AND brides) would have varying motivations, not all of them necessarily being racially motivated.

kitty

04-28-2004, 11:17 AM

manifest evidence of prejudice based on race, religion, sexual orientation, or ethnicit

That's the part that gets me. I think manifest evidence of prejudice is rather hard to prove and certainly cannot be assumed just because the guy got a mail-order bride.

rice cracker

04-28-2004, 11:18 AM

applehead

04-28-2004, 11:21 AM

well, i have read articles on mail order brides
and a lot of them are abused and staying in this type
of an abusive marriage because they have no choice.
inability to speak/write english, no job skills...etc.
but a lot of them are living happily.

but IN MY OPINION, i think a lot of the asian mail order bries
are being treated worse than european mail order brides.
european mail order brides are generally chosen by well to do
men who are looking for trophy wives. someone tall, slim and beautiful.
whereas asian mail order brides are chosen as cheap housekeepers and maids.

sandra

04-28-2004, 11:22 AM

kitty

04-28-2004, 11:23 AM

Of course they have various motivations, but from what I've read most men involved are looking for a quiet, subservient, obedient wife, and other than Eastern European women, the other major mail order bride origins are from Asia where this feminine stereotype is perhaps strongest. Asian woman = obedient wife.

... isn't that pretty circumstantial? I really don't mean to be contrary, but while that says that the majority of men who get a mail-order bride are looking for a subserviant, obedient wife, it doesn't necessarily mean that the man we are talking about was looking for one, nor does it mean that he beat up his wife BECAUSE he believed she would be obedient and/or not speak out.

Is it a hate crime if the man has a history of domestic abuse/violent behaviour, and bought his wife under the false pretense that she would be obedient, but beat her up because his first reaction in an argument is to start hitting, and not because of any belief about her and her ethnicity in particular?

I would think that if anything, the hate crime would, in that case, be the purchasing of the mail-order bride and not the beating of her.

kitty

04-28-2004, 11:25 AM

also, a lot of the men on those sites brag of their multiple degrees in law, medicine, and business from the university of eagle phoenix or some other unaccredited school.

this is what draws in a lot of the asian women. they want to marry a rich, educated man so that they can send money back home to their family.

the women are also aware that these men are looking for subservient women (as opposed to the white woman), so a lot of the asian women write in their profiles that they are subservient, etc.

okay, but this is a valid criticism of mail-order brides in general... and a race-based stereotype precipitated, possibly, by both parties.

it doesn't really convince me that all men who beat up a mail order bride should be convicted of hate crimes.

SunWuKong

04-28-2004, 11:25 AM

maybe i'm not familiar enough with the clientele of the mail-order bride system, but is it necessarily racially motivated?

i mean, i would think that the people who decide to become a part of that system (both husbands AND brides) would have varying motivations, not all of them necessarily being racially motivated.

oh man, have you read some of the stuff that's written on some of those mail order bride sites?

definitely racially motivated. there are lots of writings on those sites about how Asian women are submissive and eager to please their husbands. etc etc.

Kuchana

04-28-2004, 11:27 AM

oh man, have you read some of the stuff that's written on some of those mail order bride sites?

definitely racially motivated. there are lots of writings on those sites about how Asian women are submissive and eager to please their husbands. etc etc.

Well if that can be said so of the Asian mail order bride sites, who's to say it isn't said the same for other mail order bride sites as well in using the same word to promote them, disregarding the common misperception that Asian women are submissive and docile, etc etc.

rice cracker

04-28-2004, 11:29 AM

... isn't that pretty circumstantial? I really don't mean to be contrary, but while that says that the majority of men who get a mail-order bride are looking for a subserviant, obedient wife, it doesn't necessarily mean that the man we are talking about was looking for one, nor does it mean that he beat up his wife BECAUSE he believed she would be obedient and/or not speak out.

Is it a hate crime if the man has a history of domestic abuse/violent behaviour, and bought his wife under the false pretense that she would be obedient, but beat her up because his first reaction in an argument is to start hitting, and not because of any belief about her and her ethnicity in particular?

I would think that if anything, the hate crime would, in that case, be the purchasing of the mail-order bride and not the beating of her.

Oh, I think I'm not making myself clear. I'm not saying this is true in every case at all. I'm also not saying that beating up their MOB is the reason why these men go into these arrangements. What I am saying, is that there is a number of men looking for a particular profile in their new wife, and that these are motivated by racial stereotypes of Asian women. What abuse comes after, IMO, could based on the racial perception of Asian women by the abuser.

kitty

04-28-2004, 11:34 AM

oh man, have you read some of the stuff that's written on some of those mail order bride sites?

definitely racially motivated. there are lots of writings on those sites about how Asian women are submissive and eager to please their husbands. etc etc.

no, i haven't. but i'm wondering if you can really necessarily link the racially motivated purchasing of the mail-order bride with the domestic abuse.

like, if a guy had a history of poor driving and has gotten into some traffic accidents. he's also documented on a forum as having a poor opinion of asians. and he hits and kills an asian man with his car -- did he commit a hate crime or was it coincidental?

similarly, if the guy has a history of spousal abuse, the fact that the guy has an asian wife may be secondary to the fact that she is his wife in the first place in his decision to hit her.

SunWuKong

04-28-2004, 11:36 AM

Well if that can be said so of the Asian mail order bride sites, who's to say it isn't said the same for other mail order bride sites as well in using the same word to promote them, disregarding the common misperception that Asian women are submissive and docile, etc etc.

and if the husband thinks he can be abusive toward his Eastern European mail order bride based on the misconception that Eastern European brides are submissive and would just shut the hell up if they're getting their asses kicked - i think that would be a hate crime, too.

kitty

04-28-2004, 11:36 AM

Oh, I think I'm not making myself clear. I'm not saying this is true in every case at all. I'm also not saying that beating up their MOB is the reason why these men go into these arrangements. What I am saying, is that there is a number of men looking for a particular profile in their new wife, and that these are motivated by racial stereotypes of Asian women. What abuse comes after, IMO, could based on the racial perception of Asian women by the abuser.

oh.. then i agree with you :)

here's another question -- would you consider it a hate crime if the mail order brides were eastern european?

edit: nm, rad just answered that question. here's what i wonder -- would rape be considered a hate crime? given the general sentiment of what has been posted here, it seems like a serial rapists who chooses only women or only men to rape should be convicted of a hate crime, because he may have preconceptions/hatred/need to dominate one gender in particular.

SunWuKong

04-28-2004, 11:38 AM

no, i haven't. but i'm wondering if you can really necessarily link the racially motivated purchasing of the mail-order bride with the domestic abuse.

like, if a guy had a history of poor driving and has gotten into some traffic accidents. he's also documented on a forum as having a poor opinion of asians. and he hits and kills an asian man with his car -- did he commit a hate crime or was it coincidental?

similarly, if the guy has a history of spousal abuse, the fact that the guy has an asian wife may be secondary to the fact that she is his wife in the first place in his decision to hit her.

sure, that's a good example. and you're right, that may not necessarily be a hate crime.

but what if the man had never had any history of spousal abuse, and proceeds to abuse his Asian mail order bride?

SunWuKong

04-28-2004, 11:39 AM

oh.. then i agree with you :)

here's another question -- would you consider it a hate crime if the mail order brides were eastern european?

edit: nm, rad just answered that question. here's what i wonder -- would rape be considered a hate crime? given the general sentiment of what has been posted here, it seems like a serial rapists who chooses only women or only men to rape should be convicted of a hate crime, because he may have preconceptions/hatred/need to dominate one gender in particular.

according to what AB posted earlier, "ethnicity" is considered a criteria for a crime to be considered a hate crime.

kitty

04-28-2004, 11:40 AM

sure, that's a good example. and you're right, that may not necessarily be a hate crime.

but what if the man had never had any history of spousal abuse, and proceeds to abuse his Asian mail order bride?

you would convince me if/when you proved:

a) he had some sort of racial prejudgement of asian women over other women (e.g., in his profile on the mail-order site, he says, 'i believe asian women are subservient and obedient, and do not speak out, so i am looking for a mail-order bride)

b) the instance of abuse was triggered or prompted by this belief. (e.g., beating her up because she wasn't subservient enough, or that she wouldn't speak out).

kitty

04-28-2004, 11:42 AM

according to what AB posted earlier, "ethnicity" is considered a criteria for a crime to be considered a hate crime.

hmm...

i just checked back and am wondering what distinguishes gender in that it's not included in that list?

sandra

04-28-2004, 11:43 AM

okay, but this is a valid criticism of mail-order brides in general... and a race-based stereotype precipitated, possibly, by both parties.

it doesn't really convince me that all men who beat up a mail order bride should be convicted of hate crimes.

that's not the argument. nobody is saying that men who beat up mail order brides should be automatically prosecuted for a hate crime.

the question is whether such situations can possibly be classified as hate crimes given sufficient facts.

as of yet, i don't think it's ever been done. we're having a hard enough time classifying the cases as spousal battery b/c often times the cops will just go and lecture the couples as though they are certified marriage counselors or something.

and i don't believe my description is a valid critisicm of mail-order brides in general. i believe that many of these men take advantage of the fact that women in china are not educated, live in poverty, and will be highly impressed by their bogus degrees. i don't think that they would expect the same of european women.

sandra

04-28-2004, 11:45 AM

hmm...

i just checked back and am wondering what distinguishes gender in that it's not included in that list?

good point. i've asked that question myself - only to conclude that there will be too many crimes, then, that would be classified as a hate crime. rape, spousal abuse, sexual molestation, etc.

SunWuKong

04-28-2004, 11:45 AM

a) he had some sort of racial prejudgement of asian women over other women (e.g., in his profile on the mail-order site, he says, 'i believe asian women are subservient and obedient, and do not speak out, so i am looking for a mail-order bride)

you wouldn't think that just because he got the girl off an Asian mail order system would qualify him for this? assuming of course that the writings used by that system are full of stereotypical misconceptions of Asian women, and many or most of them are.

kitty

04-28-2004, 11:48 AM

that's not the argument. nobody is saying that men who beat up mail order brides should be automatically prosecuted for a hate crime.

the question is whether such situations can possibly be classified as hate crimes given sufficient facts.

as of yet, i don't think it's ever been done. we're having a hard enough time classifying the cases as spousal battery b/c often times the cops will just go and lecture the couples as though they are certified marriage counselors or something.

and i don't believe my description is a valid critisicm of mail-order brides in general. i believe that many of these men take advantage of the fact that women in china are not educated, live in poverty, and will be highly impressed by their bogus degrees. i don't think that they would expect the same of european women.

well, the i mean valid criticism in that people do seem to make prejudgements of the bride they choose based upon ethnic/racial stereotypes, which is a problem with the system.

thanks for the clarification. then, i think we agree :)

re: gender -- i thought that they had used it for gender before. maybe i'm thinking of a case in a tv show -- but was there a case where a guy went nuts and went on a killing rampage in a park, shooting a bunch of women because he had a hatred for women, and it was considered a hate crime?

this could very well be me getting my news stories mixed up with my pop culture references though.

rice cracker

04-28-2004, 11:49 AM

re: gender -- i thought that they had used it for gender before. maybe i'm thinking of a case in a tv show -- but was there a case where a guy went nuts and went on a killing rampage in a park, shooting a bunch of women because he had a hatred for women, and it was considered a hate crime?

this could very well be me getting my news stories mixed up with my pop culture references though.

I think I saw this on Law and Order.

SunWuKong

04-28-2004, 11:49 AM

and i don't believe my description is a valid critisicm of mail-order brides in general. i believe that many of these men take advantage of the fact that women in china are not educated, live in poverty, and will be highly impressed by their bogus degrees. i don't think that they would expect the same of european women.

i can see how easy it would be for some of these men to take advantage of these women because of cultural and linguistic differences, not to mention that these women might not even know anybody in an entirely new country besides their husbands. these women must access everything outside the home, including communication (let's say the husband did not set up international service for their home phones), through their husbands. and it's all due to racial and cultural differences.

kitty

04-28-2004, 11:49 AM

you wouldn't think that just because he got the girl off an Asian mail order system would qualify him for this? assuming of course that the writings used by that system are full of stereotypical misconceptions of Asian women, and many or most of them are.

no, because the guy is being prosecuted for hitting his wife, not buying her in the first place. IMO (and i'm no judge/lawyer), you would need to make an extra link between his established prejudgement of his bride and his instance of domestic abuse.

kitty

04-28-2004, 11:51 AM

I think I saw this on Law and Order.

oh... i don't watch law&order -- could it have been based on a real case?

<-- is feeling stupid...

Kuchana

04-28-2004, 11:53 AM

I think I saw this on Law and Order.

what was the verdict?

applehead

04-28-2004, 11:54 AM

oh... i don't watch law&order -- could it have been based on a real case?

<-- is feeling stupid...

well some episodes are LOOSELY based on real cases...
<---l&o junkie

kitty

04-28-2004, 11:59 AM

... uh-oh, now i'm solidly placing the old guy from law&order in my memory of this story.

shit, i think you guys are right.

*retracts the analogy to the guy and the shooting rampage and stuffs it deftly in her left shoe, hoping people didn't see it*

rice cracker

04-28-2004, 12:00 PM

what was the verdict?

I don't remember, I saw it a long time ago. Sometime I may be intrepid enough to slog through this http://fakeamerica.com/lo/ and find out. If it ain't in there, it ain't nowhere.

<---owns Meena's L&O addiction :biggrin:

Edit: damn it, no resolution http://fakeamerica.com/lo/archives/000013.php

achtungbaby

04-28-2004, 12:20 PM

IMO (and i'm no judge/lawyer), you would need to make an extra link between his established prejudgement of his bride and his instance of domestic abuse.

Just to keep things in perspective -- in reality, guys who beat their mail order brides will not be charged with a hate crime anytime soon. If prosecutors (like the ones in NY) are too chicken shit to even explore using that lever with cases like Huang Chen, I'm guessing they'd be even more chicken shit to suggest a link between the pathology behind guys who seek out mail order brides and their acts of spur-of-the-moment violence.

But what's wrong with being more "liberal" in our intepretations of what constitutes a hate crime? A perpetrator targets a victim based on said criteria -- isn't that fucked up? Or is it really necessary to demonstrate that the guy had Nazi pamplets under his pillow?

SunWuKong

04-28-2004, 02:27 PM

no, because the guy is being prosecuted for hitting his wife, not buying her in the first place. IMO (and i'm no judge/lawyer), you would need to make an extra link between his established prejudgement of his bride and his instance of domestic abuse.

how much more evidence of prejudgement do you really need? i'm sure men who use mail order bride systems are well aware that there are white mail order brides they can get from Eastern Europe. it's no accident that they get an Asian bride as opposed to an Eastern European one. and like i said before, most Asian male order bride sites advertise their women as docile, submissive, quiet, etc etc.

so, let's expand on that. according to Kasie, many of these women are not only physically abused. but...

by abused, i mean - sexually (many of the men order these brides because the expect them to fulfill some sort of fantasy). physically. (when the brides fail to comply, they are choked, slapped, pushed, kicked, and punched.) emotionally. (these brides are often cut off from their parents in china or japan, are not allowed to make new friends here in the united states, and all of their actions are closely monitored.) lastly, the green card. this is a huge factor why many brides try to tolerate the abuse.

in cases like that, wouldn't it be pretty clear that the woman's race has to do with the abuse? if she were American and speaks English, he wouldn't be able to do this to her. it's because she does not have American citizenship and cannot communicate, that he is able to abuse her. otherwise, there would not be the abuse, or he would not be able to get away with it.

i mean, what exactly do you think would clearly establish a link between race and a violent crime? what if the victimisers never said a racial slur during the entire act of a violent crime?

sandra

04-28-2004, 02:31 PM

in cases like that, wouldn't it be pretty clear that the woman's race has to do with the abuse? if she were American and speaks English, he wouldn't be able to do this to her. it's because she does not have American citizenship and cannot communicate, that he is able to abuse her. otherwise, there would not be the abuse, or he would not be able to get away with it.

see, it all depends on his motive. if he is abusing her because he believes asian women who do not perform their sexual duties should be beat (i've encountered one man like this), can get away with it since she cannot speak English, is relying on him for a green card - then my argument would be that he is targeting her b/c of her culture/ethnicity and that it is a hate crime.

coagulated fat

04-28-2004, 02:32 PM

see, it all depends on his motive. if he is abusing her because he believes asian women who do not perform their sexual duties should be beat (i've encountered one man like this), can get away with it since she cannot speak English, is relying on him for a green card - then my argument would be that he is targeting her b/c of her culture/ethnicity and that it is a hate crime.
What if he's Asian-American?

SunWuKong

04-28-2004, 02:34 PM

What if he's Asian-American?

i don't see how that would make a difference even if he was fobby.

coagulated fat

04-28-2004, 02:36 PM

Would the whole "targeting her because of her culture/ethnicity" change in any way? I agree with you... I don't think it would, but it still requires some thought.

sandra

04-28-2004, 02:44 PM

What if he's Asian-American?

my personal belief is that it should nonetheless constitute a hate crime.

it would be illogical if it does not, right?

for example, if an asian man despises other asians because he has internalized the racism that he faced growing up in the united states and murders other asians for that reason, i don't see why it wouldn't be a hate crime since it would be a hate crime if he were any other race. perhaps that internalization, though, can serve as a mitigating factor.

sandra

04-28-2004, 02:46 PM

Would the whole "targeting her because of her culture/ethnicity" change in any way? I agree with you... I don't think it would, but it still requires some thought.

there's also a fine line between a non-asian batterer targeting an asian women because of his beliefs about her ethnicity (she is submissive and likely unable to speak English) rather than an asian man targeting an asian woman because it is easier for him to attract and attack members of his own ethnicity.

deez nuts

04-28-2004, 04:42 PM

on a somewhat off topic but related personal take on the matter:

what normal man would find a wife through mail order? i think mentally he's living in his own little fantasy world where he already has some degree of a preconceived paradigm and self made fantasies about how a woman of a certain ethnicity would stereotypically act or stereotypically should act. i think he's looking to fulfill a fantasy rather than finding a wife.

factor the preconceived notion with some degree of mental instability makes it a volitile situation for the bride to enter into a husband and wife type relationship. this volitility is probably increases exponentially and might erupt into possible violence at any said time when he realizes that the reality that is her doesn't match his personal fantasy he expected from her.

it happens with psychiatric patients who can't discern between reality and fantasy and when the line is distinguished, it makes them volitile either temporarily or permanently.

Kuchana

04-28-2004, 04:51 PM

on a somewhat off topic but related personal take on the matter:

what normal man would find a wife through mail order? i think mentally he's living in his own little fantasy world where he already has some degree of a preconceived paradigm and self made fantasies about how a woman of a certain ethnicity would stereotypically act or stereotypically should act. i think he's looking to fulfill a fantasy rather than finding a wife.

factor the preconceived notion with some degree of mental instability makes it a volitile situation for the bride to enter into a husband and wife type relationship. this volitility is probably increased exponentially and might erupt into possible violence at any said time when he realizes that the reality that is her doesn't match his personal fantasy he expected from her.

it happens with psychiatric patients who can't discern between reality and fantasy and when the line is distinguished, it makes them volitile either temporarily or permanently.

now now. don't be so judgmental. some of these men may have a low level of self esteem and don't have that much of a luck with the female gender? or maybe just men who are marrying for convenience sake? although that idea is nearly dead in this age.

rice cracker

04-28-2004, 04:55 PM

Kucha, there's a reason why they have low self esteem and no luck with the ladies ;)

kimpossible

04-28-2004, 04:56 PM

Forewarning that this is a long post and I haven't really proofed it. Pretty rough and on the fly. This post is not representative of yellowworld.org or its administrators, just my personal thoughts and observations.

This may or may not be of interest to the subject but since I've been recuperating post-op and jobless I've been looking pointedly at sites that openly advocate, celebrate and promote white/Asian relationships (overwhelmingly white male/Asian female but includes any non-Asian Western male/Asian female and to a *much* lesser degree non-Asian females/Asian males.) With the help of some Asian guys who have been nice enough to participate in some serious Q&A, I've been trying to catalog or quantify the peculiar animal that targets Asian females whether it's solely a sexual fetish or 'racist love' as Pat calls it.

Conceding that there are real kooks on the internet (self included) it's not really fair to say across the board that these guys represent all Western or non-Asian men involved with Asian women, but there are some patterns that crop up and I believe the traits these men express and bestow upon Asian women as their reasons to exclusively procure one are reasons for Asians of any mix, gender, or nationality to be concerned about.

Reason: American women (non-Asian women in reference) are not feminine enough. Too mannish, talk back. They no longer desire or know how to take care of a man the way it used to be. Asian women are physically smaller, know their place, less likely to complain.

Granted this is pulling out implied statements but it's not a far stretch to interpret this as discomfort with women as social equals or exercising their full rights. Definitely an expression of desired power or upper hand in a relationship. Possibly a desire to 'return' to an era before the current state of women's rights.

Reason: Foreign Asian brides are available younger and more virginal. They will be grateful to you for lifting them out of poverty. They are exotic, speaking little English and will treat you like a king.

Reasoning like this clearly demonstrates that the power in these relationships is in the hands of the native-born US English speaking US male citizens who usually act as a proxy for their newly arrived brides in a culture and language they will need the appropriate time to adapt to. As an industry that uses advertisements geared to satisfy their overwhelmingly non-Asian Western male clients, the product they are promised is a young, virginal, physically small exotic beauty that will be less likely to complain, talk back, or even have the ability to interface with the public systems that could help her in times of crisis, or understand her rights in this country. That these men have to pay for access to the women also implies a purchase which I believe is compounded by the contrast of living standards between Western northern hemisphere industrialized countries like the US and the countries the Asian mail order brides are native to.

Now to address if Asian American men were to do the same thing: They could, but I've yet to see evidence that they do seek mail order brides either in the same manner as non-Asian Western males, or for similar reasons. Aside from lack of visible market or social presence I would point to certain factors I find compelling.

The first is many ethnically Asian men marrying Asian could likely be under heavy parental scrutiny. I think the parents are more likely to be involved in the decision of an Asian man to marry an Asian woman and in those cases the average mail order bride wouldn't meet the criteria the parents are looking for due to education level, country of nationality, not knowing the woman's parents, credentials. Some Asian American men do use more traditional matchmaking or arranged marriage services but this isn't too far outside of accepted cultural practices and the criteria is different.

Next, the ads for brides play on the idea that you find an Asian woman exotic. I'd argue that it's very hard for most Asian men to find an Asian woman exotic, foreign, other. Growing up with Asian females in familial and community associations would tend to make them resilient to stereotypes about Asian women.

A concession about Asian men with foreign Asian brides. I've yet to hear of a trend in the US but I have either read news reports in English, heard of through word of mouth or witnessed on Taiwan/Japan news that it is not uncommon for women of SE Asian nationality to be sexually abused or assaulted by men of wealthier or more 'developed' areas (skirting nationality debate) like Japan or Taiwan. It's also a not too rare for Taiwanese men to go to mainland China and selectively choose a bride though it resembles more culturally traditional matchmaking than it does mail order brides. It should also be noted that language and cultural differences in that instance are much less significant than with typical US/other mail order bride circumstances.

But it's important to remember here that we're concentrating on the US because we're talking about US law, so practices of other countries and their citizens aren't terribly germane.

The last is more purely a personal observation and full of conjecture, but... my observation of reactions to even the most objective and mature articles and expressions written by well educated Asian American women that takes on the subject of exotified, submissive stereotypes of Asian females held by non-Asian men is often met with angry responses by non-Asian American men who are involved with Asian women.

Again, mainly personal interpretation here but I find it deeply troubling that the very men involved with Asian women as mates are angry, and somewhat hateful towards one that speaks confidently and strongly about negative social factors that affect her as an Asian woman.

I'm no expert by any means but if hate crime legislation in spirit and word is designed to protect those that are at risk of being a target of violent crime due to real or perceived beliefs of their race, culture, nationality - why should race and nationality in conjunction with stereotypes be factors ignored in the beating of a mail order bride? For that matter I should refer to them as women rather than mail order brides but I wanted to distinguish the relationship differences between Asian IR couples in general and the industrialized, transaction version of Asian IR. I didn't make this distinction in observing stereotypes of AA women.

My more than two cents.

deez nuts

04-28-2004, 05:31 PM

now now. don't be so judgmental. some of these men may have a low level of self esteem and don't have that much of a luck with the female gender? or maybe just men who are marrying for convenience sake? although that idea is nearly dead in this age.

i'm not being judgemental. any averge male with sound mind, a good head on his shoulders, a future, a good job etc etc, will have no problem finding dates during his lifetime and eventually settling down, if he choses to do so.

hooligan

04-28-2004, 05:53 PM

younggiftedandblack

04-28-2004, 06:53 PM

Kuchana

04-28-2004, 06:56 PM

somebody already asked that question previously.

Chester

04-28-2004, 07:06 PM

if he is abusing her because he believes asian women who do not perform their sexual duties should be beat (i've encountered one man like this), can get away with it since she cannot speak English, is relying on him for a green card - then my argument would be that he is targeting her b/c of her culture/ethnicity and that it is a hate crime.But the problem, as I see it, is that you would have to prove that he brought her to this country and married her for the purpose of beating and abusing her. That is...prove that he isn't a wife-abuser in general, but knowingly "got" an Asian wife because that's the sort of woman he wants to abuse.

I agree with CSB in that I think that ethnicity/race is a factor that is far outweighed by inherent behavioral/psychology issues that are probably more commonplace in men who look for mail-order brides.

younggiftedandblack

04-28-2004, 07:14 PM

Just to keep things in perspective -- in reality, guys who beat their mail order brides will not be charged with a hate crime anytime soon. If prosecutors (like the ones in NY) are too chicken shit to even explore using that lever with cases like Huang Chen, I'm guessing they'd be even more chicken shit to suggest a link between the pathology behind guys who seek out mail order brides and their acts of spur-of-the-moment violence.

But what's wrong with being more "liberal" in our intepretations of what constitutes a hate crime? A perpetrator targets a victim based on said criteria -- isn't that fucked up? Or is it really necessary to demonstrate that the guy had Nazi pamplets under his pillow?

I don't think it's a case of being to "chickenshit". It's just a hard thing to prove UNLESS they have displayed privious signs or actions showing their bias against the victimized race, religion etc.

sleepyrobot

04-28-2004, 07:57 PM

Hi there,

I run that Law & Order website (http://fakeamerica.com/lo/ (http://)) you linked to. Amazing you found the right episode! I wrote that summary before I decided to include spoilers in my posts, so I didn't initially include the verdict.

I just checked my DVD. Unfortunately for your discussion here, the episode does not seem to include McCoy asserting that the attack legally qualifies as a hate crime, although the suspect's motivation is indeed his hatred of women.

Here is what happened:

The suspect confesses to Det. Green, and then takes a plea deal to 15 counts of manslaughter in the first degree, each with a sentence of 25 to life, to be served concurrently (not consecutively). The families of the victims are outraged at this light sentence, but McCoy blames the manufacturer of gun the defendant used. The gun can easily be turned into an automatic weapon, so McCoy takes the unusual step of prosecuting the CEO of the gun company for Murder 2. The jury finds the CEO guilty, but the judge sets aside the verdict, which stuns McCoy.

Sorry the details of the ep don't help your discussion here, but at least you know how the episode ends.

kimpossible

04-28-2004, 08:28 PM

I don't think it's a case of being to "chickenshit". It's just a hard thing to prove UNLESS they have displayed privious signs or actions showing their bias against the victimized race, religion etc.

Not if you take into account selection of a wife based on 1) transaction 2) nationality/citizenship 3) language and cultural barriers to seeking help 4) beliefs or expectations of behavior based on ethnicity.

I guess the difference comes down to if you without fail automatically believe that these can never be believable and real factors that contribute to an abuser's decision on whether or not he can victimize a woman and get away with it. I don't know if you have any technical experience with abusers and domestic abuse cycles but it's very calculated. They are often very controlled with every other person but the family member(s) they abuse. Abuse is more encompassing than bursts of actual physical abuse. Abusers need to feel absolute power and control and the physical abuse is part of total domination. It usually includes isolating their victim socially and monetarily with the point of making it harder for them to seek help. They also sexually abuse a woman in the sense that it is used as another method of control, not normal sexual interaction but coerced at times in conjunction with physical abuse.

I'll stop on abuse there because my real point is that the nature of the relationship between mail orderer and mail ordered is an extremely unequal and is a primo, readily set-up way to administer total control over a woman. Does it happen in every instance of a mail order bride? No, and personally I know a guy who got supremely screwed by his which delighted me. But the draw for target market of mail order brides isn't the cream of the crop guys if you know what I mean.

Some of us find it compelling that the selection of mail order brides is done by insecure males who tap into a situation where they can leverage their citizenship into power to procure a female that pleases them. Additionally, of these males, certain numbers of them have invested in ethnic stereotypes select a woman based on her ethnicity.

I think it's less a matter of proof and more a matter if you believe that the selection of a mail order bride based on ethnicity that is later dominated through systematic abuse has, and will never, contribute to the man's ability to abuse her which includes doing everything necessary to keep her from reporting or seeking help. Also want to include what lethalweapon has pointed out to us, the definition of a hate crime varies from state to state. What's not enough proof in one state might be proof enough in another to fit the definition of hate crime.

rice cracker

04-28-2004, 08:51 PM

SunWuKong

04-29-2004, 12:33 AM

I don't think it's a case of being to "chickenshit". It's just a hard thing to prove UNLESS they have displayed privious signs or actions showing their bias against the victimized race, religion etc.

well, what are we talking about here? are we talking about whether these cases are hate crimes, or are we talking about how difficult it would be to prove in a court of law that these are hate crimes?

sandra

04-29-2004, 12:57 AM

But the problem, as I see it, is that you would have to prove that he brought her to this country and married her for the purpose of beating and abusing her. That is...prove that he isn't a wife-abuser in general, but knowingly "got" an Asian wife because that's the sort of woman he wants to abuse.

I agree with CSB in that I think that ethnicity/race is a factor that is far outweighed by inherent behavioral/psychology issues that are probably more commonplace in men who look for mail-order brides.

it's not a but-for test. nowhere in the hate crime statutes does it mention that it is a but-for test. race need only be a primary motivating factor.

also, it's not necessary to prove that he's not a batterer in general. thus, the murderers of vincent chin may have murdered before solely for money. however, if their later act of killing vincent chin was based on race, their past history of killing for money should not preclude the finding of the murder of vincent chin a hate crime.

further - the formation of intent is not restricted to a specific time. it's not necessary that he had the intent to beat her because she was asian from the time he ordered her off the internet. the intent need not even be existent at the time the first or second or third beatings occurred. so long as it happened once - just once - that he hit her because she is asian (or for some reason associated with her being asian) - that is a hate crime.

Seamus

04-29-2004, 03:58 AM

Before she moved out, my ex-girlfriend used to be a boarder with this Caucasian car dealerwith a mail-order bride from Thailand. He would yell at her if dinner wasn't on the table by a certain time, he'd yell at her if her cooking was too greasy, and when they went out she would walk behind him rather than next to him. She was definitely very afraid of him. He didn't want her to become literate, either. It was really fucked up.

I feel mean saying this, and I know a lot of these women come from impoverished backgrounds or whatever, but I can't help feeling that it's often partly the woman's fault for getting herself in such situations (though any kind of spousal abuse is obviously completely unjustifiable). I mean, what kind of a woman marries a man for his money, and how stupid do you have to be to not realize that men seeking wives through such means aren't exactly normal? It's like these Asian women get courted by some white American guy and they feel all flattered and special like they've met some knight in shining armour.

I hate saying this, but my girlfriend and I would sort of flaunt our relationship in front of this couple. We are two well-adjusted, educated, aggressive and big Asian people in a healthy relationship, and we sort of wanted (a) the man to see that not all Asians are not submissive people who will cower before him like his wife and (b) the woman to see what she missed out on by rejecting all the nice Thai boys to come live with this ogre.

This guy was a total loser. He couldn't do anything and when his sink was leaking, he needed my girlfriend to teach him how to fix the leak. Stuff like that. Oh, and would ONLY take Asian female boarders in his house. My ex-girlfriend actually told him to fuck off (in so many words) and told him what a numbnut he was.

golden_buns

04-29-2004, 09:21 AM

(these brides are often cut off from their parents in china or japan, are not allowed to make new friends here in the united states, and all of their actions are closely monitored.)

I didn't know Japan had mail order brides.

It's pretty sad that these situation happens quite often, but also these women should know that getting married with a stranger that they got to know over the net isn't gonna be a fairy tale story. And if it's only for the green card...there's no such thing as a free lunch

sandra

04-29-2004, 09:21 AM

Chester

04-29-2004, 11:47 AM

it's not a but-for test. nowhere in the hate crime statutes does it mention that it is a but-for test. race need only be a primary motivating factor.I wasn't speaking to the law, just how I would imagine it to be, based on my personal logic.

But thanks for the explanation. It makes things clearer.

But wouldn't there be a distinction between abuse that occurs because the victim is Asian as opposed to her being Asian allowing for more abuse? I mean...from what you're describing, the argument would be based around a bunch of factors that are founded upon the victim being something other than a native American rather than being a member of any particular race or ethnicity.

SunWuKong

04-29-2004, 11:54 AM

But wouldn't there be a distinction between abuse that occurs because the victim is Asian as opposed to her being Asian allowing for more abuse?

if the victimiser knows that he can abuse the woman because she's Asian, wouldn't that be the same as the abuse occuring because the victim is Asian? in both cases, the victimiser abused the woman because he has the knowledge that she's Asian.

i mean, in one case, the victimiser abuses Asian women because they're Asian, in the other, he abuses Asian women because he thinks he can get away with it, for the fact that the women are Asian. i don't see how one is worse than the other, and i don't see how the latter shouldn't be considered a hate crime.

Kuchana

04-29-2004, 11:55 AM

I feel mean saying this, and I know a lot of these women come from impoverished backgrounds or whatever, but I can't help feeling that it's often partly the woman's fault for getting herself in such situations (though any kind of spousal abuse is obviously completely unjustifiable). I mean, what kind of a woman marries a man for his money, and how stupid do you have to be to not realize that men seeking wives through such means aren't exactly normal? It's like these Asian women get courted by some white American guy and they feel all flattered and special like they've met some knight in shining armour.

If they're desparate they would do something like that. It might be inconceivable to think of such an option, especially if you're the opposite gender but women with such backgrounds sometimes have no choice, especially if they're looking for a better way of life, where it wouldn't be possible in their own country. Thank goodness I've never been in such a situation but I still can't help but feel empathy for these women.

Kuchana

04-29-2004, 11:56 AM

if the victimiser knows that he can abuse the woman because she's Asian, wouldn't that be the same as the abuse occuring because the victim is Asian? in both cases, the victimiser abused the woman because he has the knowledge that she's Asian.

Elaborate on the part about the victimiser knowing that he can abuse the woman just because she's Asian.

SunWuKong

04-29-2004, 12:00 PM

Elaborate on the part about the victimiser knowing that he can abuse the woman just because she's Asian.

well, i was really referring to the case of the Asian mail order bride.

and to add to that, what if the victimiser thinks he can get away with abusing the Asian woman on the preconceived notion that Asian women are submissive and docile?

Chester

04-29-2004, 02:27 PM

if the victimiser knows that he can abuse the woman because she's Asian, wouldn't that be the same as the abuse occuring because the victim is Asian? in both cases, the victimiser abused the woman because he has the knowledge that she's Asian.I guess the way I see it, there are two scenarios, which stand as distinct from one-another:
1. A man beats his wife because she is Asian and may have specifically chosen an Asian wife in order to "facilitate" the abuse.
2. A man is going to beat whatever he's married to, and his wife happens to be Asian.

That is...in my mind, in order for hate crime penalties to be applicable, some causality has to be established. E.g., if the wife was not Asian, she would not have been abused. And from what I'm reading, most of the supporting arguments could also be generically applicable to, for example, Russian mail-order brides.

And so, then, what we seem to be really talking about are situations in which the abuse is facilitated not by the victim being of a certain race, but her being from a foreign, non-English-speaking locale.

This, of course, doesn't take into account situations in which a man chooses an Asian wife because he expects them to be subservient and more accepting of abuse. But, in that situation, we'd be talking about Situation #1 above.

Anyway...my opinion is that #2 probably exists in great numbers and that it'd distinct from #1 -- e.g., not all domestic abuse cases involving Asian mail-order brides are hate crimes. Perhaps I read it incorrectly, but it seemed to me that Kasia was discussing the viability of that kind of blanket label.

SunWuKong

04-29-2004, 02:56 PM

I guess the way I see it, there are two scenarios, which stand as distinct from one-another:
1. A man beats his wife because she is Asian and may have specifically chosen an Asian wife in order to "facilitate" the abuse.
2. A man is going to beat whatever he's married to, and his wife happens to be Asian.

That is...in my mind, in order for hate crime penalties to be applicable, some causality has to be established. E.g., if the wife was not Asian, she would not have been abused. And from what I'm reading, most of the supporting arguments could also be generically applicable to, for example, Russian mail-order brides.

And so, then, what we seem to be really talking about are situations in which the abuse is facilitated not by the victim being of a certain race, but her being from a foreign, non-English-speaking locale.

This, of course, doesn't take into account situations in which a man chooses an Asian wife because he expects them to be subservient and more accepting of abuse. But, in that situation, we'd be talking about Situation #1 above.

Anyway...my opinion is that #2 probably exists in great numbers and that it'd distinct from #1 -- e.g., not all domestic abuse cases involving Asian mail-order brides are hate crimes. Perhaps I read it incorrectly, but it seemed to me that Kasia was discussing the viability of that kind of blanket label.

you know, all you needed to do really was to read this thread more carefully and you wouldn't have had to write about half of your post. scroll up. ethnicity is included as a criteria to qualify a crime as a hate crime. so even if the mail order bride was Russian as opposed to Asian, it would be applicable. if it makes you feel better, we can certainly change the title of this thread to "foreign-born mail order bride". that would include all those Russian women you so want to protect, and it would still include Asian women that some other people on this thread care about. that would make everybody happy, wouldn't it?

>:^|

04-29-2004, 05:55 PM

I guess my thought is that if people can't even agree on what constitutes racism, they aren't going to agree on what constitutes a hate crime.

Chester

04-29-2004, 07:42 PM

you know, all you needed to do really was to read this thread more carefully and you wouldn't have had to write about half of your post. scroll up. ethnicity is included as a criteria to qualify a crime as a hate crime. so even if the mail order bride was Russian as opposed to Asian, it would be applicable. if it makes you feel better, we can certainly change the title of this thread to "foreign-born mail order bride". that would include all those Russian women you so want to protect, and it would still include Asian women that some other people on this thread care about. that would make everybody happy, wouldn't it?I'm not sure where the sarcasm is stemming from, but either you don't get what I'm saying or I'm not explaining it well. Either way, the snarkiness does nothing to clear up the confusion. The insinuation that I didn't pay attention while reading, the "if it makes you feel better," and the whole "Russian women you so want to protect" (emphasis mine) is pointlessly personal and totally inaccurate to boot.

I'm not trying to make sure we allow for the hate crime label to be applied to abuse against non-Asians. If you go back and read what I've wrote through the entire thread, you ought to be able to see that. If you don't, then...well, I guess I'm making it a point to tell you now. Next time, you can simply ask instead of sarcastically going off on a misguided assumption.

My question is: in these situations, is the abuse truly being facilitated or caused by the woman being Asian (or any specific ethnicity/race), or is it being facilitated by the fact that the woman does not come from this country, regardless of ethnicity or race?

That is: is it a crime against a ethnicity/race that the abuser hates, or is it simply a crime against a woman who happens to be of a particular ethnicity/race? Is the husband abusing the wife because she is Asian/Russian/Madagascaran, or would he abuse any woman he would be married to, regardless of her background?

Assuming that nobody is saying that all abuse of mail-order brides should be characterized as hate crimes, I'm wondering how the distinction would be made, in real-world terms.

SunWuKong

04-29-2004, 11:25 PM

I'm not sure where the sarcasm is stemming from, but either you don't get what I'm saying or I'm not explaining it well. Either way, the snarkiness does nothing to clear up the confusion. The insinuation that I didn't pay attention while reading, the "if it makes you feel better," and the whole "Russian women you so want to protect" (emphasis mine) is pointlessly personal and totally inaccurate to boot.

I'm not trying to make sure we allow for the hate crime label to be applied to abuse against non-Asians. If you go back and read what I've wrote through the entire thread, you ought to be able to see that. If you don't, then...well, I guess I'm making it a point to tell you now. Next time, you can simply ask instead of sarcastically going off on a misguided assumption.

My question is: in these situations, is the abuse truly being facilitated or caused by the woman being Asian (or any specific ethnicity/race), or is it being facilitated by the fact that the woman does not come from this country, regardless of ethnicity or race?

That is: is it a crime against a ethnicity/race that the abuser hates, or is it simply a crime against a woman who happens to be of a particular ethnicity/race? Is the husband abusing the wife because she is Asian/Russian/Madagascaran, or would he abuse any woman he would be married to, regardless of her background?

Assuming that nobody is saying that all abuse of mail-order brides should be characterized as hate crimes, I'm wondering how the distinction would be made, in real-world terms.

no actually i got it. you were trying to divorce race and ethnicity from being foreign-born and non-English speaking. well, that works great for the 24th century Star Trek world, but until foreign-born non-English speaking white American women start routinely becoming abused mail order brides, i'm afraid what you're saying is not applicable and pretty much moot.

the point is, you can't divorce race and ethnicity from being foreign-born and non-English speaking, just like you can't until race and ethnicity with a slew of other things you've tried to divorce it from.

so as i was saying, we could always change the title of this thread to say "foreign-born mail order brides". it wouldn't really make a difference but maybe it'll make you feel more comfortable.

cheers.

Chester

04-30-2004, 12:38 AM

no actually i got it. you were trying to divorce race and ethnicity from being foreign-born and non-English speaking. well, that works great for the 24th century Star Trek world, but until foreign-born non-English speaking white American women start routinely becoming abused mail order bridesI don't know specifics, but there's no foreign-born, non-English-speaking white women who are mail-order brides? What about Russian women? They're foreign-born, typically speak poor or minimal English, and frequently speak none at all. They are just as far away from their homelands and could be victimized in ways similar if not entirely analogous to a mail-order bride from, say, Manila.

Again, I don't know numbers, but I imagine that a fair number of these women are abused by their husbands. One way of looking at this is to argue that the hate crime label still fits as, in this case the husband "hates" Russians. But, to me, this is but one example, and there are a multitude of other situations that cut across a wide array of races, nationalities, ethnicities, and levels of relative cultural acclimation.

My bottom line thought is that, in order to demonstrate applicability of hate crime penalties, one needs to demonstrate actual hate (or similar emotion) toward the victim's race/ethnicity/whatever in order to make things stick. One has to differentiate between someone who chooses to victimize someone because of their race and someone who chooses to victimize people, in general. Or, in terms of this thread, someone who chooses to victimize whomever they're married to, in general.

And, actually, I think if one really wants to make a compelling argument for extending hate crime penalties to domestic violence cases, I think a far more convincing case could be made for basing the argument upon hate of women -- gender-based hate crimes. That would actually be a pretty good catch-all and I think it holds merit as I think a wife-beater is basically demonstrating hate for a particular gender.
the point is, you can't divorce race and ethnicity from being foreign-born and non-English speakingOf course you can. You can be foreign-born and non-English-speaking and be a member of a vast multitude of races and ethnicities.

Some examples:
You can be born in Beijing, not speak a lick of English, and be Asian.
You can be born in Moscow, not speak a lick of English, and be white.
You can be born in Calcutta, not speak a lick of English, and be Indian.
You can be born in Rome, not speak a lick of English, and be Italian.
You can be born in Rome, not speak a lick of English, and be Armenian.
You can be born in Rome, not speak a lick of English, and be Chinese.
You can be born in Rome, not speak a lick of English, and be Moroccan.

So they're all separate factors and all divorceable from one another.

I imagine what you meant was that you can't divorce the factors of race/ethnicity/cultural acclimation from the issue of domestic abuse when it comes to mail-order brides.

I wouldn't necessarily argue with that, though my instinctual guess is that, at least some of the time, those factors are not the primary reasons for why an abusive husband abuses his wife. It would seem logical to me that some guys are simply abusive and would be abusive to a native-born Caucasian wife if that's the woman he were married to.

And, if that sort of guy is in front of us, is he guilty of a race-based hate crime on top of being guilty of spousal abuse? I was posing questions -- I think you might have read too much into them.

SunWuKong

04-30-2004, 10:53 AM

I don't know specifics, but there's no foreign-born, non-English-speaking white women who are mail-order brides? What about Russian women? They're foreign-born, typically speak poor or minimal English, and frequently speak none at all. They are just as far away from their homelands and could be victimized in ways similar if not entirely analogous to a mail-order bride from, say, Manila.

you forgot that i also said "American". so no, not Russian. i specifically said "foreign-born non-English speaking white American women".

Of course you can. You can be foreign-born and non-English-speaking and be a member of a vast multitude of races and ethnicities.

Some examples:
You can be born in Beijing, not speak a lick of English, and be Asian.
You can be born in Moscow, not speak a lick of English, and be white.
You can be born in Calcutta, not speak a lick of English, and be Indian.
You can be born in Rome, not speak a lick of English, and be Italian.
You can be born in Rome, not speak a lick of English, and be Armenian.
You can be born in Rome, not speak a lick of English, and be Chinese.
You can be born in Rome, not speak a lick of English, and be Moroccan.

you're sort of proving my point here. how about a white American that's born in Beijing but doesn't speak a lick of English?

I wouldn't necessarily argue with that, though my instinctual guess is that, at least some of the time, those factors are not the primary reasons for why an abusive husband abuses his wife. It would seem logical to me that some guys are simply abusive and would be abusive to a native-born Caucasian wife if that's the woman he were married to.

in that case, you're missing the point, as well as the first post that kasie made. a native-born white wife would probably know a lot better what rights she has, can communicate her problems to the authorities, probably has friends she can contact, etc etc. that the mail order brides are from foreign countries and do not speak English enables some of their husbands to be abusive toward them, and in many cases, that's exactly why the husbands are abuse, because they think they can get away with it.

deez nuts

04-30-2004, 11:01 AM

i think we're kinda arguing over semantics, i believe there are both underlying psychological issues and issues of race. if race wasn't an issue, in the cases of mail order bride services that provide a whole spectrum of women for the potential client, why would they categorize their women according to race and or ethnicity? for ease of perusal for the potential client?

Chester

04-30-2004, 12:26 PM

i think we're kinda arguing over semanticsWe're arguing over gray areas, but I think that's quite a bit more than simple semantics. I keep asking if we can truly tie race to motivation. I'm sure it frequently can be done legitimately, but I also suspect there are a lot of situations in which race is a factor that helps perpetuate abuse that would have occured regardless of race. And I don't think that distinction is meaningless.

If this is the case, then I think the hate crime argument needs to be used selectively. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but what Kasie seemed to be talking about was applying hate crime statutes to all domestic violence cases involving foreign-born wives (or, at least, foreign-born wives with poor English skills, no family resources in America, etc., etc.).
you forgot that i also said "American". so no, not Russian. i specifically said "foreign-born non-English speaking white American women".And I'm not sure where you're going with that...
you're sort of proving my point here. how about a white American that's born in Beijing but doesn't speak a lick of English?What about her? Again, I don't understand what you're trying to say with that example.

(And, as far as that "example" goes, I don't understand why you would base an argument upon the existence of a white woman, born to American parents in Beijing, who grows up never learning English, and is somehow repatriated to the United States via a mail-order marriage agency. It's especially bewildering since you just got finished insinuating that I'm wrapped up in 24th Century Star Trek fiction, which would seem to more aptly describe your example here.)

You had written...
you can't divorce race and ethnicity from being foreign-born and non-English speaking And I think I showed you why that's not the case. Race, ethnicity, national origin, and language skills are all separate aspects of a person.

Going back to Kasie's first post, I'm wondering if certain permutations of these factors automatically constitute a hate crime or if some sort of causal relationship needs to be proven and, if so, how that would be proven.
in that case, you're missing the point, as well as the first post that kasie made. a native-born white wife would probably know a lot better what rights she has, can communicate her problems to the authorities, probably has friends she can contact, etc etc. that the mail order brides are from foreign countries and do not speak English enables some of their husbands to be abusive toward them, and in many cases, that's exactly why the husbands are abuse, because they think they can get away with it.I'm not missing the point -- I'm questioning it.

I'm questioning whether or not ethnicity, national origin, and language skills are "exactly why the husbands are abusive." Undoubtedly being non-white, unfamiliar with English, and without individual resources in America help create a situation in which a woman could be abused at the will of the husband. What I'm asking is if they are the cause of that abuse. What I'm asking is...if you took those factors away, would the husband become non-abusive?

I doubt that, as there is an unfortunately high incidence of spousal abuse inflicted upon women who are born and raised in America, whether they're white or any other race. And while I think most people in America show a glaring lack of regard for the English language, they're still native speakers of the language. They also have "local" family and friends to support them. Yet, an alarming percentage of these women are also abused by their husbands.

I'm not disputing that a husband can more easily abuse a wife if she's an immigrant, speaks poor English, and has no individual resources. What I'm asking is if these factors can automatically make the case for a hate crime if their absence wouldn't stop the abuse. I'm also wondering how one could determine the relationship between those factors and the advent of the abuse.

I'm not ruling out the idea that some or even many domestic violence cases involving mail-order brides (or, realistically, all immigrant wives who have the same background factors) can be compelling hate crime cases. But my feeling is that a significant number of these cases involve men who would abuse any woman, and the fact that their wife's background makes the abuse easier to inflict and perpetuate doesn't necessarily make the abuse a hate crime...not in my mind.

Like I wrote, I think a more compelling general argument could be made for categorizing domestic violence as hate crimes against women as a whole. Gender-based hate crimes. I don't know why you, SWK, would ignore that proposition. I hope you're not just picking and choosing specific parts of my posts to argue with for the sake of arguing with me.

If not...then what about the idea of making the case for hate crimes based upon targetting of gender? I think this would be a heck of a lot easier to prove, as I imagine many abusers have a history of abuse by the time their crimes bring them in front of the criminal justice system. And, if these guys have a history of abusing a variety of women of differing ethnicities, races, national origins, and English skills, basing the case upon gender overrides those differences.
i believe there are both underlying psychological issues and issues of race. if race wasn't an issue, in the cases of mail order bride services that provide a whole spectrum of women for the potential client, why would they categorize their women according to race and or ethnicity? for ease of perusal for the potential client?Various reasons...
1. I'm sure there are guys out there who really revel in the idea of the "catalog" aspect of this sort of thing. If they're into Filipino, they can "order" Filipino. If they're into Russian, they can "order" Russian.
2. Another reason is that these mail-order bride agencies don't seem to be multinational conglomerates with a pool of women across the globe. That is, I've never seen agencies that provide "a whole spectrum of women." I'm not arguing they don't exist, but the ones I've seen are localized agencies based where the women are. I haven't seen a firm that lists women from all around the world, breaking them down into various ethnic categories. Of course...it's probably just a matter of time before that happens (if it hasn't already).

And, whatever the case may be, I think a distinction can be drawn between having a sexual/romantic fetish and having the desire or propensity for fetishistic abuse (which would be grounds for a hate crime label). After all, I'm sure there's a fair number of these marriages where the husband is a good husband or, at least, a non-abusive husband.

Given this, you can't automatically couple having a sexual fetish for a particular race and having the desire to abuse a particular race (as opposed to the female gender in general).

(SWK: If you're unsure about what I'm arguing or questioning, by all means, ask me. If you disagree, then rock it out. But I could really do without the condescension and sarcasm -- especially because it's really tempting for me to respond in kind and I'd prefer not to...because it would be silly and pointless on top of being insulting.)

rice cracker

04-30-2004, 12:30 PM

Chester, I think the problem you're dealing with is that you're assuming that Kasia was referring to ALL incidents of spousal abuse as hate crimes, when I don't think she was doing that at all. You're arguing "gray area" using black and white absolute terms.

Chester

04-30-2004, 12:35 PM

Chester, I think the problem you're dealing with is that you're assuming that Kasia was referring to ALL incidents of spousal abuse as hate crimesI don't think that. But I was wondering if she was trying to refer to all incidents of "mail-order bride" spousal abuse as hate crimes...
You're arguing "gray area" using black and white absolute terms.I'm not trying to and I don't see how you're getting that from what I've written. I thought I was clear in that I'm not only highlighting the existence of gray areas (which may be obvious if Kasie and everyone else aren't arguing the black-and-white), but also trying to define them.

rice cracker

04-30-2004, 12:39 PM

I don't think that. But I was wondering if she was trying to refer to all incidents of "mail-order bride" spousal abuse as hate crimes...

Didn't I just post that I don't think she or others are defining all incidents of MOB spousal abuse as a hate crime? I thought this thread was dealing with the possibility that they are, and if so how to define them as such.

I'm not trying to and I don't see how you're getting that from what I've written. I thought I was clear in that I'm not only highlighting the existence of gray areas (which may be obvious if Kasie and everyone else aren't arguing the black-and-white), but also trying to define them.

Not clear, to me, that you are "highlighting" gray areas, which I've already acknowleged are possible. It actually seems like you're trying to prove that all incidents are not hate crimes and classifying them as simple spousal abuse which is not race motivated.

Chester

04-30-2004, 12:46 PM

Didn't I just post that I don't think she or others are defining all incidents of MOB spousal abuse as a hate crime?You did. Kasie and SWK didn't. Maybe I'm just asking them to state the obvious, but their holding that view hasn't been obvious to me. It has seemed, so far, that they're looking at the background of mail-order brides as something that fundamentally makes their abuse a hate crime. But, obviously, I could be wrong.
It actually seems like you're trying to prove that all incidents are not hate crimes and classifying them as simple spousal abuse which is not race motivated.That's definitely not my contention. And I think I've been careful to state, numerous times, that I can imagine "some or even many" of those cases having race as a primary, causal factor.

At the same time, I've been questioning...
A. Are people trying to say that all those cases have race as a causal factor?
B. If not, then how are we to determine the causality of those cases and tie them into race?
C. Could we not also/instead look to gender as a more generalized, but also more ironclad basis for making hate crime cases?

To me, that's trying to clarify the gray areas, not pushing the black and white. Or do you disagree?

rice cracker

04-30-2004, 12:56 PM

A: Not all, many.
B: I think the fact they they ordered a foreign bride indicates they have some racial preference or motives, but I would like to see other indicators.
C: Also looking at gender as a basis has been discussed, and I'm all for that.

Clarifying, perhaps now, but your earlier presentation seemed much more defensive of the husbands. Just an FYI, and I'm glad I understand more where you're coming from now.

Chester

04-30-2004, 01:15 PM

A: Not all, many.Okey-doke. I'm still wondering about Kasia and SWK's stance. But, given what you're saying, perhaps they feel the same way too.
B: I think the fact they they ordered a foreign bride indicates they have some racial preference or motives, but I would like to see other indicators.What I'm wondering is...how would one qualify race/ethnicity as the primary (or significant) motive? One of my points is that a sexual/romantic fetish doesn't necessarily equate with an abuse fetish. And I think this ought to be illustrated by any of these marriages that turn out to be successes or, at the least, non-abusive non-disasters. (I'm assuming that assumption is a fair one to make.)

So, if that could be taken as a given, how does the argument get made?
C: Also looking at gender as a basis has been discussed, and I'm all for that. On that topic, how does that work? Can separate hate crime counts be filed -- one for race/ethnicity, and one for gender? And, if not, then which does one choose? If it would be, indeed, an either/or proposition, then it would seem that the gender-based one would be way more effective in that it would be far easier to prove.
Clarifying, perhaps now, but your earlier presentation seemed much more defensive of the husbands.You really thought I was defending wife-beaters? Or you thought that I was making the argument that not all men who beat mail-order brides are committing a hate crime? Because, if it was the latter, that's still the argument I'm making? (Which might be arguing the obvious, but that's preferable to being a defender of wife-beaters, which I'm definitely not.)
Just an FYI, and I'm glad I understand more where you're coming from now.Glad to be given the opportunity to clarify rather than pointlessly argue.

rice cracker

04-30-2004, 01:33 PM

Argh, Chester, you won't let me be lazy. I hate you :tongue:

What I'm wondering is...how would one qualify race/ethnicity as the primary (or significant) motive? One of my points is that a sexual/romantic fetish doesn't necessarily equate with an abuse fetish. And I think this ought to be illustrated by any of these marriages that turn out to be successes or, at the least, non-abusive non-disasters. (I'm assuming that assumption is a fair one to make.)

So, if that could be taken as a given, how does the argument get made?

I see the motive as in the abuser feels entitled to treat his property as he wishes. He also feels that he has less culpability since his property doesn't speak english fluently and has limited outside resources to call on due to her cultural handicap and his control over her life. Now, I'm not saying this is what he plotted out when clicking in his credit card information, but eventually that level of control and her vulnerability can definitely lead to the abuse, especially if he is angered (and now this is the point where I lable this a hate crime against a foreigner) or frustrated because his property is not behaving in the manner that he expects her to act from racial stereotypes. Is he abusing her because she's not American? Or does her ethnicity add to his ability to abuse?

On that topic, how does that work? Can separate hate crime counts be filed -- one for race/ethnicity, and one for gender? And, if not, then which does one choose? If it would be, indeed, an either/or proposition, then it would seem that the gender-based one would be way more effective in that it would be far easier to prove.

I can't answer this one with any knowledge or experience with law, but if gender is proven the reason for the abuse, as well as race, it makes sense to me to charge him for both.

You really thought I was defending wife-beaters? Or you thought that I was making the argument that not all men who beat mail-order brides are committing a hate crime? Because, if it was the latter, that's still the argument I'm making? (Which might be arguing the obvious, but that's preferable to being a defender of wife-beaters, which I'm definitely not.)

I should clarify. Not defending their actions, but defending their motives before purchasing their wife, and pushing more towards a "race has little to do with it" belief. Which, before and during the marriage, race has a lot of impact in their interactions, abuse included.

SunWuKong

05-01-2004, 02:17 AM

let me present a hypothetical situation. a KKK member kills a black guy, but during the killing, he does not say one racial slur. the KKK member may hate black people, but he may not have killed the black guy because he hates that particular black guy because he's black. right...? to me, essentially this is what you're saying.

firstly, hate crimes are not defined such that the victimiser must "hate" his victim for whatever colour, religion, sexual preference, etc, only that there is "manifest evidence of prejudice". i've already established that if a guy orders an Asian mail order bride, or a Russian mail order bride, or X mail order bride, then he must have pre-conceived notions of what these women are based on their race or ethnicity. he wouldn't order an Asian mail order bride unless he specifically likes Asian women, or at least, how they are supposed to be based on advertisement.

secondly, i mentioned a foreign-born, non-English speaking, white American mail order bride because this woman does not exist. the fact that the woman is foreign-born and does not speak English would necessitate that she is not white American, or simply American at that. and if a guy got her as an Asian mail order bride, then guess what - her being Asian would inexplicably tie in to the fact that she does not speak English and is not familiar with her rights in the US.

thirdly, we are not just talking about physical abuse, we are also talking about things like sexual abuse, being kept like a virtual prisoner, not being allowed to communicate with the outside world, things of that sort. that would only be viable if the victim does not speak English, is not aware of her rights, and has nobody else to turn to for help. and even if we're just talking about physical abuse, the fact that the mail order bride does not speak English and is new to the US would automatically enable the man to get away with the abuse he administers. it does not matter if this man has a history of abusing the women in his life, even if those women are white American women. if the fact that his Asian mail order bride does not know how to get help, and he is aware of this (i don't know how he wouldn't be aware of it), and maybe even prevents her from getting help by taking advantage of the fact that she is unable to interact with American society, this inability being inexplicably tied to her being an Asian mail order bride, or a Russian mail order bride, then race or ethnicity is involved (as i've demonstrated how being foreign-born and non-English speaking is directly tied to a person's race or ethnicity), because the victimiser is knowingly using it to enable his actions.

sure, we can all say that it just so happens that the victim does not know how to get help and it just so happens that the guy abuses her. but then again, i ask my original question - a KKK member doesn't necessarily kill a black guy because he hates the black guy for his race, right?

Chester

05-02-2004, 03:48 PM

the KKK member may hate black people, but he may not have killed the black guy because he hates that particular black guy because he's black. right...? to me, essentially this is what you're saying.Perhaps to you, but it's absolutely not what I'm saying. I've been asking about situations in which the abuser does not hate the race/ethnicity of the victim and have been wondering if, in those situations, would you consider the abuse a hate crime simply because the abuser and the victim are of different races/ethnicities.

I am not wondering about situations in which the abuser hates the race of the victim but perhaps abused the victim for other reasons. And your example of the KKK member totally ignores my question as it pre-supposes that the abuser is prejudiced against the victim right from the get-go.
i've already established that if a guy orders an Asian mail order bride, or a Russian mail order bride, or X mail order bride, then he must have pre-conceived notions of what these women are based on their race or ethnicity. I don't think you've established that. I don't doubt that there are tons of guys who go for Asians because they have preconceived notions of how Asian women behave, but, in my opinion, there are those who simply have a physical preference the way someone might prefer blonds over brunettes.
he wouldn't order an Asian mail order bride unless he specifically likes Asian womenSure, but if that preference is based on simple physical aesthetics, then the guy's preference -- while shallow -- doesn't automatically mean that he thinks Asian women are docile and deserve to be beaten if not docile.
and if a guy got her as an Asian mail order bride, then guess what - her being Asian would inexplicably tie in to the fact that she does not speak English and is not familiar with her rights in the US.But that does not mean that the husband selected the woman because she is easier to victimize. And even if he's attracted to the idea of having a wife who is dependent upon him does not automatically mean that he's looking to leverage that dependence as an opening for abuse.
secondly, i mentioned a foreign-born, non-English speaking, white American mail order bride because this woman does not exist. the fact that the woman is foreign-born and does not speak English would necessitate that she is not white American, or simply American at thatI think it's about simply not being American-born.
sure, we can all say that it just so happens that the victim does not know how to get help and it just so happens that the guy abuses her. but then again, i ask my original question - a KKK member doesn't necessarily kill a black guy because he hates the black guy for his race, right?That's a loaded example because you're presupposing that the abuser has a fundamental bias against the victim. What I'm asking about is a guy who isn't a racist bugaboo (e.g. a Klansman), but is still an abusive lout...a guy who would be abusive toward any woman he would be married to, regardless of her ethnicity.

To go to a hypothetical that I think is well within the bounds of reality, let's say we're looking at a case of a guy who has been abusing his Filipino wife. Let's say he has a record of abusing previous wives or girlfriends, with those women being the same race or ethnicity as him.

When he beats his Filipino wife, is he beating her because she's a Filipino immigrant (and thus easier to victimize), or because she's a woman?

We're circling around things at this point, I think. (Or, at least I'm currently having problems focusing on what we're really debating about here.) I think it boils down to this: I don't think the hate crime label sticks if the abusers selection of victims is primarily based upon how easy the victims will be to abuse. To me, exploiting the weaknesses associated with the victim's race is different from "hating" people of that race or victimizing them because of their race, which, to me, would be what hate crimes are all about.

You think that exploiting the weaknesses associated with the victim's race equals prejudice in the legal sense. I don't. To me, to prove prejudice, you have to prove that there was prejudice -- i.e. that a person of a particular race/ethnicity deserves to be treated in a certain way because one holds certain prejudicial views about them.

To me, viewing, for example, a Filipina immigrant as a vulnerable target isn't a prejudicial viewpoint. It is, as you've clearly demonstrated, the truth. However, if he believes that Filipinas are somehow less of a person than, say, a white woman, then I think you have grounds to apply hate crime statutes.

but eventually that level of control and her vulnerability can definitely lead to the abuse, especially if he is angered (and now this is the point where I lable this a hate crime against a foreigner) or frustrated because his property is not behaving in the manner that he expects her to act from racial stereotypes.That is something that, if proven, I think makes a compelling argument for a hate crime label.
Is he abusing her because she's not American? Or does her ethnicity add to his ability to abuse?That's basically the question I'm asking. To me, the latter, on its own, is not grounds for a hate crime label.

SunWuKong

05-02-2004, 11:30 PM

Perhaps to you, but it's absolutely not what I'm saying. I've been asking about situations in which the abuser does not hate the race/ethnicity of the victim and have been wondering if, in those situations, would you consider the abuse a hate crime simply because the abuser and the victim are of different races/ethnicities.

I am not wondering about situations in which the abuser hates the race of the victim but perhaps abused the victim for other reasons. And your example of the KKK member totally ignores my question as it pre-supposes that the abuser is prejudiced against the victim right from the get-go.

and i've already shown that if someone is getting an Asian mail order bride, then he is prejudiced, or at least have pre-conceived notions of, how an Asian woman is supposed to be. there are plenty of Eastern European mail order brides that a white man can just as easily order. and once again, it is not necessary to prove there is "hatred" in order for a crime to be considered a hate crime. all that needs to be shown is ""manifest evidence of prejudice".

I don't think you've established that. I don't doubt that there are tons of guys who go for Asians because they have preconceived notions of how Asian women behave, but, in my opinion, there are those who simply have a physical preference the way someone might prefer blonds over brunettes.

there is something very amiss about that, in that there are plenty of Asian American women that a guy can go after, if he is into the female Asian physique. there are plenty of dating sites out there. but the difference between a woman in Asia and an Asian American woman? "traditional values", "submissive", "docile", "likes to please her husband". you name it.

But that does not mean that the husband selected the woman because she is easier to victimize. And even if he's attracted to the idea of having a wife who is dependent upon him does not automatically mean that he's looking to leverage that dependence as an opening for abuse.

well that's a great defense of the business of mail order brides, but not much of a defense of mail order bride abuse as not being a hate crime. it doesn't do much when in fact, some of these husbands of mail order brides have leveraged their disadvantages to abuse them.

and are those husbands aware their wives would be disadvantaged as such before their wives arrive in the US? you tell me. yes, that was a rhetorical question. i don't know much about law, but sure, in a court of law, you'd have to prove intent. but i've never been talking about proving it as a hate crime in a court of law. to me, it is enough that they are aware of their wives disadvantages and they took advantage of it. hey, i'm sure in a court of law, some of them can say that they accidently leveraged their wives' disadvantages to abuse them.

I think it's about simply not being American-born.

oh right, because white Americans have such a great sense of their ethnicity that Europeans of the same ethnicities automatically identify with them culturally.

missmeow

05-03-2004, 01:56 AM

i think that covers the abuse of mail-order Asian brides.

How about mail order brides in general? The issue of mail-order bride rape/abuse is not specific to Asian brides alone. Russian brides are also 'popular' and end up in indentical situations: they don't speak/have limited understanding of English, don't know American laws, and are willing to put up with the abuse to get their greencards. I would say they would fall under that category as well because they are specifically targeted because of their enthnicity--in fact, all mail order brides are. These men are picking them because they are seen as "traditional" and subservient and NOT "evil feminists."

But how many people are willing to place them under hate crime laws?

shy

05-03-2004, 08:59 AM

haven't had time to read the entire thread yet but to go by what kasia is saying...

yes, i'd be up for calling it a hate crime if it will reduce these occurences. even if it will help out at least one situation by stopping this crime to occur, i'd call it a hate crime.

the way i see it, i'd call it anything or do anything if it will make a difference.

the semantics, to me, aren't worth debating.

a crime... is a crime.

SunWuKong

05-03-2004, 11:01 AM

How about mail order brides in general? The issue of mail-order bride rape/abuse is not specific to Asian brides alone. Russian brides are also 'popular' and end up in indentical situations: they don't speak/have limited understanding of English, don't know American laws, and are willing to put up with the abuse to get their greencards. I would say they would fall under that category as well because they are specifically targeted because of their enthnicity--in fact, all mail order brides are. These men are picking them because they are seen as "traditional" and subservient and NOT "evil feminists."

But how many people are willing to place them under hate crime laws?

hate crime laws cover ethnicity, too. and i fully think that Russian or Eastern European mail order bride abuses wouldn't be any different than Asian mail order bride abuses.

Chester

05-03-2004, 03:47 PM

and i've already shown that if someone is getting an Asian mail order bride, then he is prejudiced, or at least have pre-conceived notions of, how an Asian woman is supposed to be.I can definitely see that being the case a lot of the time, but I don't see it as being an absolute and I definitely haven't seen you "showing" that this is always the case or even almost always the case.

My imagination is that there are a fair number of guys who go for Asian mail-order brides based upon a physical preference that might or might not have anything to do with behavioral expectations.
there are plenty of Eastern European mail order brides that a white man can just as easily order. But if a guy is into Asians on a physical level, then a Russian woman just ain't gonna cut it.
and once again, it is not necessary to prove there is "hatred" in order for a crime to be considered a hate crime. all that needs to be shown is ""manifest evidence of prejudice"....with "hate" being a principal manifestation of that prejudice, insofar as "hate crimes" go. But, obviously, it's not the only one and I agree with that. What I don't agree with is the contention that a man automatically provides "manifest evidence of prejudice" simply because he chooses to marry a mail-order bride, regardless of race/ethnicity.
but the difference between a woman in Asia and an Asian American woman? "traditional values", "submissive", "docile", "likes to please her husband". you name it.I definitely agree with that. But as CSB had been alluding to before, my impression is that a lot of these guys go the mail-order route not necessarily because they're looking to find someone meek, but because they can "attract" a woman who normally would be out of his league, physically. While this could definitely entail a guy who's such an asshole that he's an abuser and likes the idea of having a wife who is more dependent upon him than a native-born woman. But I don't think that's an automatic conclusion.

Anyway, my point is that:
1. Abuse is not automatically entailed simply because a power imbalance exists. I'm not sure if this is stating the obvious. You don't believe that all mail-order marriages are fundamentally abusive, do you? (That's not meant to be either rhetorical or sarcastic.)
2. Abuse that does occur may or may not have been perpetrated with or without that power imbalance. To me, the relationship has to be proven before it can be used as grounds for additional charges.
well that's a great defense of the business of mail order bridesNo it's not. It is only a non-indictment of the business of mail-order brides. A failure to condemn is not the same as a defense. I'd appreciate it if you didn't attribute opinions to me -- particularly when the association is baseless.

But, anyway, I understand your position, more or less. While Frink doesn't like the use of hypotheticals, I'm not so interested in this that I'm going to do research. But I try to confine my hypotheticals to something that feels realistic.

So, in the hypothetical of a man who is found to be beating his mail-order wife from the Phillipines, and is found to have a history of beating previous partners/spouses (some or all of whom have been the same ethnicity as him), would you automatically consider his beating of his Filipino wife to be a hate crime?

If you wouldn't automatically apply hate crime penalties, how would you determine your threshold for doing so? What would you look for in terms of evidence?

SunWuKong

05-03-2004, 09:14 PM

So, in the hypothetical of a man who is found to be beating his mail-order wife from the Phillipines, and is found to have a history of beating previous partners/spouses (some or all of whom have been the same ethnicity as him), would you automatically consider his beating of his Filipino wife to be a hate crime?

If you wouldn't automatically apply hate crime penalties, how would you determine your threshold for doing so? What would you look for in terms of evidence?

well firstly, again i repeat, we've been talking not just about simple physical abuse, but other abuses such as keeping the mail order bride a virtual prisoner, not letting her communicate with the outside world, etc etc.

it doesn't matter if the husband has abused previous women who are fully "functional" in American society. once again i repeat: is he aware that the woman, being that she is Filipino (or Russian for that matter), and not American, is not aware of her rights, cannot communicate well with English speakers, etc etc? did he take advantage of this in order to lock her up, abuse her, etc etc? if those two questions are answered positive, that in my mind will qualify it as a hate crime. again, i don't know much about law, but if the fact that she was Filipino and not American facilitated the man in the abuse, and he was fully aware of this and took advantage of it, then to me, i would think that is a hate crime.

anyway, i'm tired of talking about this. i keep having to repeat myself on stances i've already stated in my previous posts.