The Han dynasty

[yoMAMA]

There's an article in this month's issue of national geographic about the Han dynasty, pretty interesting stuff.

Anyone else read it?

[amietron]

is this the article (http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0402/feature1/)?


By Mike EdwardsPhotographs by O. Louis Mazzatenta

As mighty in the East two thousand years ago as the Romans were in the West, the Han emperors—brilliant, cunning, and cruel—left a mark on China that endures today.

Get a taste of what awaits you in print from this compelling excerpt.

"At last the whole world is mine," the first Han emperor, Liu Bang, is said to have declared as he claimed the imperial throne in 202 B.C., the first of 27 Lius to reign. Far from the whole world, his writ extended across a territory only about half as large as today's China. Tough, and common as his surname—China swarms with people named Liu—he despised learned Confucians, whom he readily identified by their distinctive peaked hats. According to an incident recounted by a famous Han historian, Sima Qian, when Liu Bang encountered one of these worthies he "immediately snatches the hat from the visitor's head and pisses in it."

Liu Bang had been a minor official in the previous dynasty, the Qin (or Chin, from which "China" derives). The Qin was the first dynasty to weld China's oft-warring kingdoms into a single state. It was also cruel and soon collapsed. With the throne up for grabs, Liu Bang raised an army. His most formidable opponent, a general named Xiang Yu, captured Liu Bang's father and sent Liu Bang an ultimatum: "Surrender or I will boil your venerable sire alive!"

Liu Bang replied merely: "Send me a cup of the soup."

Bravado won out; Dad wasn't stewed, and Liu Bang finally crushed Xiang Yu, who then, to deal with the humiliation, committed suicide with his one remaining concubine.

The victor put his capital in the city of Changan ("eternal peace"), whose ruins lie today in the suburbs of its bustling, tourist-packed successor, Xian ("western peace"). In those ruins on a June afternoon, I stood atop a mound 50 feet (20 meters) high—the site of Liu Bang's palace. Portions of Changan's city wall, which encompassed 13 square miles (33 square kilometers), poked from fields where peasants were reaping wheat, some with scythes, some at the wheels of combines.

Liu Bang, also known as Gaozu, "high ancestor," (symbolic names were often posthumously conferred on emperors) called his palace Lasting Joy. Joy? I thought I heard screams from the ruins. After his death in 195 B.C. his empress, Lu Zhi, tried to hijack the empire for her own family. She had several Liu Bang sons born to concubines murdered and for good measure mutilated his favorite mistress and had her tossed into a privy.

Routing other Liu kin and loyal generals from their fiefdoms—the spoils of rulership—she replaced them with her own relatives. Fifteen years passed before the Liu clan managed to regain control, enthroning a surviving Liu Bang son, Emperor Wen. The Lius then wiped out all the empress's kin they could get their hands on.

Oh, the Han women! This wouldn't be the last time an empress or concubine colluded in a dangerous political game.

Get the whole story in the pages of National Geographic magazine.

[yoMAMA]

is this the article (http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0402/feature1/)?

yep!

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Interesting. Yet conveniently cutting the article off after insinuating they would go into greater detail regarding Han women. Conniving bastards ^^ they must be desperate for new subscriptions.

[yoMAMA]

Interesting. Yet conveniently cutting the article off after insinuating they would go into greater detail regarding Han women. Conniving bastards ^^ they must be desperate for new subscriptions.

they are desperate-they even have a swimsuit issue now.

:tongue:

[SunWuKong]

arguably the most glorious dynasty in the history of China, after the Tang dynasty.

[hooligan]

i ran across the article in a national geographic at the student clinic, i was going to steal it but i carelessly left it out in the open when i left so i couldn't grab it on my way out. :( looking at the captions and pictures, the article is definitely well put together. i didn't have a chance to read it before i left.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

i ran across the article in a national geographic at the student clinic, i was going to steal it but i carelessly left it out in the open when i left so i couldn't grab it on my way out. :( looking at the captions and pictures, the article is definitely well put together. i didn't have a chance to read it before i left.

haha, I used to have those types of temptations as a teen, except it was more like the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue, and not National Geographic.

[hooligan]

haha, I used to have those types of temptations as a teen, except it was more like the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue, and not National Geographic.
:redface: well i only flipped through the pages of national geographic to catch some nudie shots <3

[Seamus]

I subscribe to NG and read that article. It was short, but the writing was better than NG's usual cliche-ridden boilerplate. Good photos, too. I was actually in Xinjiang in December, one of the areas discussed in more detail in the article, as the Tarim basin was the western outpost of the Han dynasty. Incidentally, does anyone know why only Northern (or "real," as I like to kid) Chinese people (like myself)--not counting ethnic minorities--consider themselves "Han" people? Why do Cantonese people name themselves after the Tang dynasty, and do they consider themselves ETHNIC Chinese (as opposed to citizens of the Chinese state, which they obviously are)?

[SunWuKong]

I subscribe to NG and read that article. It was short, but the writing was better than NG's usual cliche-ridden boilerplate. Good photos, too. I was actually in Xinjiang in December, one of the areas discussed in more detail in the article, as the Tarim basin was the western outpost of the Han dynasty. Incidentally, does anyone know why only Northern (or "real," as I like to kid) Chinese people (like myself)--not counting ethnic minorities--consider themselves "Han" people? Why do Cantonese people name themselves after the Tang dynasty, and do they consider themselves ETHNIC Chinese (as opposed to citizens of the Chinese state, which they obviously are)?

well, really, it's Minnan Hua that's the closest to how they spoke in the Han dynasty, but i don't think Fukienese people consider themselves to be northern.

and there was a wave of migration to the south during the Tang dynasty, specifically to the area of what is now Guangdong. that's why many Cantonese people still refer to the Chinese as Tang people, and that's why Tang poetry sounds better when read in Cantonese.

[Seamus]

Yeah, I remember reading that Cantonese has changed less from the original ancient Chinese than Mandarin has, which is kind of surprising given that the Sino-Tibetan languages originally came from the north, and that the south of China was originally populated by speakers of the Miao-Yiao, Tai-Kadai and Austroasian language families. I know there is a bit of Altaic influence on Mandarin pronunciation and vocabulary due to the influx of Turkic peoples into the northern Chinese population, but the grammar is obviously not in the least bit Altaic.

I think Cantonese songs are beautiful, but I think the spoken language sounds rather harsh, maybe because I understand none of it.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

If anything, I thought the Cantonese considered themselves more 'real Chinese' since much of the Han population arguably migrated to the south, whereas the remaining Han population in the north became repeatedly intermixed by other groups from Northern Asia like Manchurians and Mongolians. Of course much of the people who resulted from this mixture also in turn migrated to the south and mixed with southern indigenous groups as well, so....yea but I dunno, I still have always had this impression that many southern Chinese are more closer to 'pure Han' than northern Chinese, but once again, you can't draw a clear boundary. I've also noticed more Turkic features in the southern Chinese than the northern Chinese, such as larger eyes, long faces, etc. like myself, but I dunno. I also have this Turkish friend that literally looks like a slightly whiter or more 'middle-eastern' version of me, haha.

[Seamus]

I don't think the southern Chinese are that "pure" either, if by "pure" you mean unmixed with groups who did not arise from the Yellow and Yangtze river valleys. (Of course, all the groups originally came from the west and, ultimately, from Africa). They're just mixed more with the Austroasiatic peoples that got pushed into southeast Asia, whereas northern Chinese are mixed more with Turks, Mongols and other Altaic groups.

As for southern Chinese looking more "turkic," I think you might be onto something. This is odd because northern Chinese are definitely much more mixed with Central Asians. I was in Xinjiang and, while a lot of the Uyghurs look very Caucasian, the more Asian looking folks do seem to look more similar to "Cantonese" and other southern Han people (if you can call Cantonese people Hans). But a lot of Turks do share the squinty eyes and other "Mongoloid" features characteristic of northern Chinese.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I don't think the southern Chinese are that "pure" either, if by "pure" you mean unmixed with groups who did not arise from the Yellow and Yangtze river valleys. (Of course, all the groups originally came from the west and, ultimately, from Africa). They're just mixed more with the Austroasiatic peoples that got pushed into southeast Asia, whereas northern Chinese are mixed more with Turks, Mongols and other Altaic groups.

As for southern Chinese looking more "turkic," I think you might be onto something. This is odd because northern Chinese are definitely much more mixed with Central Asians. I was in Xinjiang and, while a lot of the Uyghurs look very Caucasian, the more Asian looking folks do seem to look more similar to "Cantonese" and other southern Han people (if you can call Cantonese people Hans). But a lot of Turks do share the squinty eyes and other "Mongoloid" features characteristic of northern Chinese.

Southern Chinese may have more Turkish features simply because perhaps the existing Chinese gene pool that migrated towards the south had already turkish blood infused (I think much from what is now the present day Shanxi and Shaanxi provinces), before mixing with indigenous groups already in what is today the southern part of China (but to a lesser extent than the mixing with the Chinese that remained in the north). This is evident in myself and some of my cousins, who could pass for mixed or are assumed to be half-Portuguese if they are from the HK/Macau area. I think both my parents trace their lineage (very distant lineage I'm assuming) back to the Shanxi and Shaanxi province(s), but I've heard that a lot of Chinese today can also. The Chinese that did not migrate south were in turn mixed with, as you mentioned, say Manchurians or Mongolians or other central Asian peoples. I do remember reading however that the southern part of China (what used to be part of the Mongol empire) was not as influenced by invaders and the so-called 'barbarians' during much of history as the culturally Han populations of the north.

Well regardless I think it's safe to say that there are really no more pure-Han people to be found anywhere, so I always find it interesting to read up on this topic. When people use the term 'Han chinese', I take it more to mean it from a cultural angle rather than from a genetic angle, since the Chinese gene pool is enormous. Heck, I don't even look anything like my brother, who in turn doesn't look anything like my parents.

[Seamus]

Yeah, I think it's mostly political propaganda because the Chinese regime is more interested in preserving unity and suppressing the centripetal forces that threaten to tear the regime apart than in the true nature of things. Though it's not all because of the "evil commies," because it's an almost trivial fact that over the centuries, a sense of shared cultural identity developed among the different ethnic groups that we collectively call the Hans to distinguish themselves from the nomadic people. "Guns, Germs and Steel" had an excellent chapter on how the Chinese became "Chinese."

You're Bangladeshi? I'm always amazed by how much diversity there is South Asia, too. There you kind of see the reverse situation where, despite obvious cultural and ethnic ties across India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, you see three separate countries for political and historical reasons.

[Seamus]

Adding to what you're saying, the Mongol invasion resulted in something like half of the population north of the Yangtze river being killed off, which must have greatly changed the composition of the population as it rebounded. Of course, much of it was probably due to natural increase, but there was probably much in-migration as well.

I'm not sure where all of my own people are from, but I know I have roots in Tianjin, Nanjing and Zhejiang (near Shanghai). Also, my grandmother is part Mongolian. So I'm more mixed than pure "northern."

[yoMAMA]

Adding to what you're saying, the Mongol invasion resulted in something like half of the population north of the Yangtze river being killed off, which must have greatly changed the composition of the population as it rebounded. Of course, much of it was probably due to natural increase, but there was probably much in-migration as well.

I'm not sure where all of my own people are from, but I know I have roots in Tianjin, Nanjing and Zhejiang (near Shanghai). Also, my grandmother is part Mongolian. So I'm more mixed than pure "northern."

The Mongol invasion for DEVASTATING for the Chinese civilization....and it also caused the spread of Chinese technology to the west, which ultimately was improved and used against China centuries lager.

Talk about IRONY.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I'm not sure where all of my own people are from, but I know I have roots in Tianjin, Nanjing and Zhejiang (near Shanghai). Also, my grandmother is part Mongolian. So I'm more mixed than pure "northern."

You and the rest of the Chinese population. There's no such thing as pure northern or southern or western or eastern Chinese, most Chinese people are mutts, especially when compared to say Koreans or other more homogenous groups. Oh btw, I'm Chinese, not Bangladeshi. It's an inside joke :tongue:

[Seamus]

Yeah, the Chinese screwed up, big time, from the beginning of the Ming dynasty up until the imperialists starting taking over. The Mongolians may have been violent and seen as "barbarians," but one thing they WERE good at was learning from the cultures of all the people that they took over. They also facilitated trade and migration across of all Eurasia to a great extent. So yeah, I guess you could say the Mongols had something to do with the rise of Europe. When the Ming dynasty took over, they should have kept the outward-looking outlook of the Mongols rather than sinking back into isolation. I'd have to say that the best dynasties in China in terms of openness were the Han, Tang and the Yuan/Mongol dynasties. And of course, today.

[SunWuKong]

Well regardless I think it's safe to say that there are really no more pure-Han people to be found anywhere, so I always find it interesting to read up on this topic. When people use the term 'Han chinese', I take it more to mean it from a cultural angle rather than from a genetic angle, since the Chinese gene pool is enormous. Heck, I don't even look anything like my brother, who in turn doesn't look anything like my parents.

not really. i think it's safe to say that there are certain genetic similarities that mark the Han Chinese different from many ethnic minorities in China, especially the ones in the west. and geneticists have already determined that Koreans and Japanese are genetically much closer to each other than are Chinese to Japanese or Chinese to Koreans. don't know about the Vietnamese though.

[SunWuKong]

Yeah, the Chinese screwed up, big time, from the beginning of the Ming dynasty up until the imperialists starting taking over. The Mongolians may have been violent and seen as "barbarians," but one thing they WERE good at was learning from the cultures of all the people that they took over. They also facilitated trade and migration across of all Eurasia to a great extent. So yeah, I guess you could say the Mongols had something to do with the rise of Europe. When the Ming dynasty took over, they should have kept the outward-looking outlook of the Mongols rather than sinking back into isolation. I'd have to say that the best dynasties in China in terms of openness were the Han, Tang and the Yuan/Mongol dynasties. And of course, today.

not really. the Mongols didn't have much interest in how the Chinese did things. they didn't let the Chinese participate in government, and they insisted on keeping their own customs and language. i wouldn't say they were very good at learning from different cultures.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

not really. i think it's safe to say that there are certain genetic similarities that mark the Han Chinese different from many ethnic minorities in China, especially the ones in the west. and geneticists have already determined that Koreans and Japanese are genetically much closer to each other than are Chinese to Japanese or Chinese to Koreans. don't know about the Vietnamese though.

Well yeah, but I still think that the Chinese as a whole are a hecka lot more diverse. That's why, just going by looks, you see Chinese people that resemble Koreans and Japanese more than Southeast Asian, and you see Chinese people that look more Southeast Asian or Filipino, then you have some Chinese that could pass for half-white or turkish or middle-eastern and so on, and of course all the rest in the middle at various points in the spectrum. This shows just how big the pool is. Further proof of this large range (albeit superficial) is in how some Chinese (especially near the Korean, Vietnamese, and Turkic borders) are practically Korean (or perhaps Japanese), Vietnamese, or Turkish in appearance, and are still considered Han Chinese. Once again, I believe that Han Chinese is a cultural label more than a genetic or ethnic label.

[SunWuKong]

by the way, i have my roots in the same county (Xinhui) in Guangdong that the Song dynasty was lost to the Mongols. that was where the Battle of Yamen took place.

[SunWuKong]

Well yeah, but I still think that the Chinese as a whole are a hecka lot more diverse. That's why, just going by looks, you see Chinese people that resemble Koreans and Japanese more than Southeast Asian, and you see Chinese people that look more Southeast Asian or Filipino, then you have some Chinese that could pass for half-white or turkish or middle-eastern and so on, and of course all the rest in the middle at various points in the spectrum. This shows just how big the pool is. Further proof of this large range (albeit superficial) is in how some Chinese (especially near the Korean, Vietnamese, and Turkic borders) are practically Korean (or perhaps Japanese), Vietnamese, or Turkish in appearance, and are still considered Han Chinese. Once again, I believe that Han Chinese is a cultural label more than a genetic or ethnic label.

well, i agree that the Chinese is more genetically diverse than the Japanese and Koreans.

but passing for half-white, Turkish, or Middle Eastern? that's a little far fetched to say, don't you think? you have any pictures you can show us?

and of course there are Chinese that could pass for Korean near the Chinese-Korean border. i'll bet there are Koreans that could pass for Chinese there, too. regardless, there are common genetic traits in Han Chinese that are not common in everybody else.

[Seamus]

not really. the Mongols didn't have much interest in how the Chinese did things. they didn't let the Chinese participate in government, and they insisted on keeping their own customs and language. i wouldn't say they were very good at learning from different cultures.

Actually, I revise my original stance a little bit. You're right in the sense that the Mongol rulers of China did not become sinified to the extent that the Manchus did a few centuries later. And while they did keep around--rather than slaughter--all the artisans, perhaps this was more indicative of their ability to recognize a useful thing when they saw it than of any tendency to absorb another culture. One thing they DID do was to adopt the local religion wherever they went. That's how they became muslim in the West and Buddhist in the east.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

well, i agree that the Chinese is more genetically diverse than the Japanese and Koreans.

but passing for half-white, Turkish, or Middle Eastern? that's a little far fetched to say, don't you think? you have any pictures you can show us?

and of course there are Chinese that could pass for Korean near the Chinese-Korean border. i'll bet there are Koreans that could pass for Chinese there, too. regardless, there are common genetic traits in Han Chinese that are not common in everybody else.

I know plenty of Chinese who could pass for half-white, albeit not obviously. I've had many people ask me if I am half-white (mostly by Chinese), even though I'm not one of the ones that I'm talking about. And regarding Chinese 'passing' as Japanese or Korean and vice versa, literally half or more of East Asian people could 'pass' for a member of another group, in that if they told you they were something, most probably you would believe them and you wouldn't be like 'dude, there's no way'. Anyways, yeah, my point was just that the Chinese gene pool is vast compared to the gene pools of most other groups labeled as 'ethnic' groups. But I guess that's kinda obvious considering the size of China. Brazil is even more diverse, but that's different since, like the U.S., its history is filled with tales of immigrants (or slaves) coming from overseas.

[Seamus]

well, i agree that the Chinese is more genetically diverse than the Japanese and Koreans. but passing for half-white, Turkish, or Middle Eastern? that's a little far fetched to say, don't you think? you have any pictures you can show us?


Actually, I know exactly what he's talking about. Probably not full-blown Middle Eastern, but some Chinese do have a slightly Middle Eastern look. I hate it when people ask such people, as well as "Korean-", "Filipino-" or "Japanese"-looking Chinese people, whether they are "full Chinese," because this question presumes that there's ONE single "Chinese look." I only get this in the U.S., but in northwest China, where I was last winter, no one asked whether I was a foreigner until I opened my mouth, because they're used to seeing a diversity of Chinese looks there. I was very happy not to be seen as a foreigner but as a real Chinese person.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Actually, I know exactly what he's talking about. Probably not full-blown Middle Eastern, but some Chinese do have a slightly Middle Eastern look. I hate it when people ask such people, as well as "Korean-", "Filipino-" or "Japanese"-looking Chinese people, whether they are "full Chinese," because this question presumes that there's ONE single "Chinese look." I only get this in the U.S., but in northwest China, where I was last winter, no one asked whether I was a foreigner until I opened my mouth, because they're used to seeing a diversity of Chinese looks there. I was very happy not to be seen as a foreigner but as a real Chinese person.

Seriously. These girls at this booth on campus asked me if I was Chinese even after I friggin' wrote my name down in Chinese on the sign-up sheet (like everyone else before me did) for like the Chinese New Year party for the Taiwanese Student Association. Maybe my penmanship just sucked.

[SunWuKong]

I know plenty of Chinese who could pass for half-white, albeit not obviously. I've had many people ask me if I am half-white (mostly by Chinese), even though I'm not one of the ones that I'm talking about. And regarding Chinese 'passing' as Japanese or Korean and vice versa, literally half or more of East Asian people could 'pass' for a member of another group, in that if they told you they were something, most probably you would believe them and you wouldn't be like 'dude, there's no way'. Anyways, yeah, my point was just that the Chinese gene pool is vast compared to the gene pools of most other groups labeled as 'ethnic' groups. But I guess that's kinda obvious considering the size of China. Brazil is even more diverse, but that's different since, like the U.S., its history is filled with tales of immigrants (or slaves) coming from overseas.

honestly, i agree with you that the Chinese has a large gene pool, but to say that we're all basically mixed is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. i'd have to see some numbers on outside migration and assimilation with the Chinese populace throughout history before i'd accept that. in my opinion, it's more like we have a little bit of non-Han Chinese genes here and there, but that hardly means that we're all mixed with one thing or another. it's a small and negligible percentage in my opinion, until i see some numbers to say otherwise. i mean, ok, there were Turkish people living in China... but exactly how many? if they only constituted about 1% of the population of China at the time, that's pretty much an insignificant number.

[SunWuKong]

Actually, I know exactly what he's talking about. Probably not full-blown Middle Eastern, but some Chinese do have a slightly Middle Eastern look. I hate it when people ask such people, as well as "Korean-", "Filipino-" or "Japanese"-looking Chinese people, whether they are "full Chinese," because this question presumes that there's ONE single "Chinese look." I only get this in the U.S., but in northwest China, where I was last winter, no one asked whether I was a foreigner until I opened my mouth, because they're used to seeing a diversity of Chinese looks there. I was very happy not to be seen as a foreigner but as a real Chinese person.

if you were in the northwest, people are probably used to seeing ethnic minorities in that area. they probably thought you were one.

[kuilong]

well, really, it's Minnan Hua that's the closest to how they spoke in the Han dynasty, but i don't think Fukienese people consider themselves to be northern.

Actually, Minnan is not descended from Middle Chinese (while Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka (kejia) and Gan (the dialect spoken in Jiangxi) are. Here's a nice family tree: http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/9/92/Chinese_language_tree.png.

[Edit: Not to mention this page: http://www.chinesedc.com/4WenYi/Language/sino-tibetan1.htm (in Chinese)]

Cantonese does preserve most of the finals and tones of classical Chinese, and while in Mandarin the pronunciations of some characters have merged, they're still separate in Cantonese. That's why reading Middle Chinese poetry in Cantonese is usually easier to understand (and sounds better?) than if it's read in Mandarin.

[yoMAMA]

Oh btw, I'm Chinese, not Bangladeshi. It's an inside joke :tongue:

Dude, you don't look Bengladeshi! :wink:

[SunWuKong]

Actually, Minnan is not descended from Middle Chinese (while Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka (kejia) and Gan (the dialect spoken in Jiangxi) are. Here's a nice family tree: http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/9/92/Chinese_language_tree.png.

doesn't that diagram say that Minnan at least partially from the same ancestor as Hakka? i'm not sure how to read that diagram, because it seems to be colour coded and the children have more than one parent.

[Edit: Not to mention this page: http://www.chinesedc.com/4WenYi/Language/sino-tibetan1.htm (in Chinese)]

that's a very informative chart. thanks for linking it. i'll probably be looking at it quite a bit.

but how does it say that Minnan doesn't resemble the original Han dynasty dialect the most out of the current spoken dialects? it puts Minnan under the 閩 group, Mandarin under the "Northern" group, Hakka and Gan under the 客贛 group, all three of which are at the same level of divergence as Cantonese (or 粵語) from the Sino branch of the Sino-Tibetan family.

Cantonese does preserve most of the finals and tones of classical Chinese, and while in Mandarin the pronunciations of some characters have merged, they're still separate in Cantonese. That's why reading Middle Chinese poetry in Cantonese is usually easier to understand (and sounds better?) than if it's read in Mandarin.

i don't know if it's easier to understand - my Mandarin sucks. :tongue:
but in my opinion it does sound better when read in Cantonese, as opposed to Mandarin. some of the rhyming actually does not exist in Mandarin while existing in Cantonese.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Dude, you don't look Bengladeshi! :wink:

I'm one of the ethnic minorities there ^^

[kuilong]

doesn't that diagram say that Minnan at least partially from the same ancestor as Hakka? i'm not sure how to read that diagram, because it seems to be colour coded and the children have more than one parent.

It says that the language during the Han dynasty was the ancestor of Mandarin, Cantonese, Gan and Hakka, but that the branch that eventually became Min split off from that group earlier on. Something like this:


Zhou Dynasty Chinese splits into:
1. Qi --> ... --> Min[bei|nan|dong|xi]
2. Han Dynasty Chinese --> ... --> Mandarin, Cantonese, Gan, Hakka
3. (also split into what became Wu (Shanghainese PrYdE!), Hui and Xiang)


(Look at the section entitled Hanyu Yanhua Tu (漢語演化圖), that's what the first colorful map is based on)

[SunWuKong]

It says that the language during the Han dynasty was the ancestor of Mandarin, Cantonese, Gan and Hakka, but that the branch that eventually became Min split off from that group earlier on. Something like this:


Zhou Dynasty Chinese splits into:
1. Qi --> ... --> Min[bei|nan|dong|xi]
2. Han Dynasty Chinese --> ... --> Mandarin, Cantonese, Gan, Hakka
3. (also split into what became Wu (Shanghainese PrYdE!), Hui and Xiang)


(Look at the section entitled Hanyu Yanhua Tu (漢語演化圖), that's what the first colorful map is based on)

i see that one of the direct ancestors of the Min dialect is 中原語, which is directly descended from 關東語, which split off from the Qin dialect (i assume that's what people spoke in the beginning of the Han dynasty) during the same period as Cantonese and Mandarin, or Northern, which the chart says is the ancestor of Hakka and Gan. the chart says that during the Han period (漢代), Cantonese, Mandarin, and Min had different ancestors, but they all had the Qin dialect before that.

at most, you can say that Min is a mix-breed because it actually has two direct ancestors, and one of them is not a descendent of the Qin dialect, while the other is. in that sense, it was partially branched off from the common ancestor that Cantonese and Mandarin both have.

and the interesting thing is, if you look closely at the chart, the other direct descendent of Min is actually 齊語, which is actually the direct ancestor of the Qin dialect! i think this is a good indication that Min is actually closer to the language that was spoken even pre-dating the Qin dynasty.

[Craig]

well, i agree that the Chinese is more genetically diverse than the Japanese and Koreans.

but passing for half-white, Turkish, or Middle Eastern? that's a little far fetched to say, don't you think? you have any pictures you can show us?
I know a half-white that can pass for Chinese, Turkish or Middle Eastern. Is that close enough ?

[SunWuKong]

I know a half-white that can pass for Chinese, Turkish or Middle Eastern. Is that close enough ?

not really. this is not a reflexive function.

[Seamus]

not really. this is not a reflexive function.

Heheh, I like the way you think. Though in theory, why wouldn't it be reflexive? If an element of A can pass for an element of B it means that the intersection of sets A and B are nonempty. By the way, you really look like Tung Chee-Hwa (the Governor-General of Hongkong). Or is that just your avatar?

[kuilong]

i see that one of the direct ancestors of the Min dialect is ???, which is directly descended from ???, which split off from the Qin dialect (i assume that's what people spoke in the beginning of the Han dynasty) during the same period as Cantonese and Mandarin, or Northern, which the chart says is the ancestor of Hakka and Gan. the chart says that during the Han period (??), Cantonese, Mandarin, and Min had different ancestors, but they all had the Qin dialect before that.

I think you're reading it backwards. Zhongyuanyu descended from Qin. This stage of the evolution of Chinese is usually called "Archaic Chinese" or "Old Chinese", and Qi split off from it early on, such that by the time of the Han there was already a separate Qi language (which became Minnan). The language of the Han dynasty evolved into "Middle Chinese" which became Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka and Gan. Min is famous for being one of the few still extant dialects not descended from Middle Chinese.


at most, you can say that Min is a mix-breed because it actually has two direct ancestors, and one of them is not a descendent of the Qin dialect, while the other is. in that sense, it was partially branched off from the common ancestor that Cantonese and Mandarin both have.

IIRC, its 'two ancestors' don't mean it evolved from both in the linguistic sense (languages can only evolve from another language). I think what the connecting line means is that Min borrowed vocabulary and phonology heavily from Zhongyuanyu, in the same way English borrowed massive amounts of vocabulary from French (though it's still Germanic).

and the interesting thing is, if you look closely at the chart, the other direct descendent of Min is actually ??, which is actually the direct ancestor of the Qin dialect! i think this is a good indication that Min is actually closer to the language that was spoken even pre-dating the Qin dynasty.

I don't see any other descendants -- the text chart is sort of non-intuitive to read and the author of the graphical map I pasted earlier explained how it easily misleads. The graphical map is clearer, but be sure to read it from the bottom up.

[yoMAMA]

By the way, you really look like Tung Chee-Hwa (the Governor-General of Hongkong). Or is that just your avatar?

I think that's a picture of chris patton.

:tongue: :wink:

[SunWuKong]

I think you're reading it backwards. Zhongyuanyu descended from Qin.

that's what i meant. sorry if you misinterpret.

This stage of the evolution of Chinese is usually called "Archaic Chinese" or "Old Chinese", and Qi split off from it early on, such that by the time of the Han there was already a separate Qi language (which became Minnan). The language of the Han dynasty evolved into "Middle Chinese" which became Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka and Gan. Min is famous for being one of the few still extant dialects not descended from Middle Chinese.

which language on that chart is considered "Middle Chinese"?

IIRC, its 'two ancestors' don't mean it evolved from both in the linguistic sense (languages can only evolve from another language). I think what the connecting line means is that Min borrowed vocabulary and phonology heavily from Zhongyuanyu, in the same way English borrowed massive amounts of vocabulary from French (though it's still Germanic).

http://www.slantedeyes.com/min.gif

but look where i've circled the chart. there's a solid line connecting 中原語 and 閩語. there's nothing to indicate that 閩語 is just borrowing words from 中原語. it's the same relationship that, for example, 秦語 has with 交州語.

[kuilong]

The short answer is I don't know.

The long answer: I talked to the guy who made the graphical chart (a professor of East Asian Studied at Wake Forest University), and he said that indeed, it's not linguistically possible for one language to be descended from two others, so the possibilities he suggests are:

1. It's a massive borrowing of vocabulary.
2. It's a type of 'borrowing' where the underlying meaning is carried by the characters. For instance, in Taiwan they pronounce 垃圾 (garbage) as "le4 se4" and in the mainland as "la4 ji2", and the reason is that they both borrowed the characters from a non-Mandarin language (where it meant the muck at the bottom of an irrigation canal) and Mandarin just borrowed the characters and people pronounced it how they thought it should be pronounced.

What seems to be clear though is that Min split away from Archaic Chinese before the Han dynasty. In the Han dynasty IIRC they spoke late Archaic Chinese, and Middle Chinese (the language of the Sui and Tang dynasties) is the common ancestor of Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka, etc. (though Mandarin has diverged from it more than the others).

In any case, they (the makers of that chart) cite some books, I might try checking them out and looking them up if I'm ever in Taiwan again.

[Craig]

http://www.slantedeyes.com/min.gif

Damn it Radford, it's your fault that I got called slant eyes this week at work. All these Americans can see an admin of a Asian political site has a website called "slantedeyes.com", so now it reinforces to them it's acceptable to call us "slant eyes". Just joking.

[kuilong]

Anyway, if A Step into the Past (Xun Qin Ji, a Chinese drama) is to be believed, everyone in the Warring States Period spoke Cantonese. :P

[SunWuKong]

Anyway, if A Step into the Past (Xun Qin Ji, a Chinese drama) is to be believed, everyone in the Warring States Period spoke Cantonese. :P

everybody spoke Cantonese in the past if you believe any HK period dramas! :biggrin:

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Anyway, if A Step into the Past (Xun Qin Ji, a Chinese drama) is to be believed, everyone in the Warring States Period spoke Cantonese. :P

You mean they didn't? :confused: :confused: :confused: :biggrin: