Asian-American military officer accused of spying...

[yangbahn50]

I've read in today's article on CNN that an Asian-American naval officer was accused of spying.

The US government (or monsters) accuse Capt. James Yee of having "ties to radical Muslim groups in the US." Pure horse shit.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/09/23/airforce.detainee/index.html

His charges are espionage and treason.

I'd laugh if the majority of his charges are thrown out of court. DOesn't this remind you of Wen Ho Lee and Katrina Leung, the FBI agent?

[younggiftedandblack]

I didn't read the whole article, but didn't they find some maps or something on him??? Atleast that's what I heard earlier today.

[Emperor_Mike]

That's what I heard too. Apparently, there was a report a few days back that there may be a handful of extremist Muslim sympathisers in the US military. Does anyone remember that one incident awhile back when a US soldier tossed a grenade into a tent full of his comrades? Must be rather unnerving to harbour the thought that there are wolves in sheep's clothing among the flock.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Already posted:
http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=9566

[SunWuKong]

Already posted:
http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=9566


alright, i closed that other thread because there're more replies to this one.

[pfc beansprout]

~being in the millitary, it would NOT surprise me if they have some kind of propoganda case on him just to hymm him up....i bet he wasn't fitting in the "millitary" brainwashing mold, so they gonna lock him down....

[bluetrianglescott]

One thing that came to mind for me was that he could have been trying to get out information about torture of prisoners to human rights organizations or the ACLU, seeing how human rights monitors have been kept out.

This government is on an all-out power grab and no dissent is to be tolerated, whether from "Muslim extremists" (whatever the hell that means) or civil libertarians from the left or right. My rule of thumb? Don't trust anything in the obedient mainstream media.

[Chester]

One thing that came to mind for me was that he could have been trying to get out information about torture of prisoners to human rights organizations or the ACLU, seeing how human rights monitors have been kept out.

There's also the possibility that he's a traitor.

This government is on an all-out power grab and no dissent is to be tolerated, whether from "Muslim extremists" (whatever the hell that means)

Hm...look up "Al Qaida," "Hamas," "Abu Sayyaf," "Hezbollah" and quite a few others.

[bluetrianglescott]

These days "traitor" and "extremist" mean whatever the hell Bush and Ashcroft SAY they mean.

[Chester]

These days "traitor" and "extremist" mean whatever the hell Bush and Ashcroft SAY they mean.

They still mean what they have always meant.

If Yee was planning on releasing classified information to unauthorized parties, he's a traitor. Just like if Katrina Leung was indeed a double-agent, she'd be a traitor.

Organizations such as Hamas and Al-Qaida "extremists." And, actually, they're the extreme extremists. It's not Bush or Ashcroft who coined the term "extremist" for people who purposely murder innocents to further their agendas.

[Tao]

simple: anybody who hates the western way of living and primarily America, who is seen as the evil of the world

i don't think the term muslim extremists should be applied to terrorists.....I mean these people do these things for their own personal gain, it has nothing to do with religion, or holy wars.

[bluetrianglescott]

I don't hold your view, Chester, that anyone who releases classified documents to unauthorized parties is a "traitor". If the US tries to classify documents on the torture of prisoners so that the people of this country don't find out about it, who is the criminal? The person who performs the torture or the person who tells about it to "unauthorized parties" (meaning "us")?

Now, you may not think that my holding such beliefs should be called treason or extremism, but rest assured, people in Ashcroft's brave new world have been arrested, questioned, and even deported for expressing such views. You better believe that I'm going to question what I'm told when this is the case, and while Congressman Coble runs around saying that interning Japanese Americans was a good thing. A new climate is being created that very much resembles a police state.

If you don't think that's a dangerous state of affairs, I refer you to a fellow YWer's signature which quotes Nazi concentration camp survivor Martin Neimoller who says, "First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist; then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew, then they came for the trade unionists, but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist, and then they came for me...but by then, there was no one left to speak up."

[Tao]

Why not? - they use religion to justify their acts, whether it is right or wrong is irrelevant.
you can just say terrorists...and saying extremists is misleading, since it's not that these people are extreme beleivers, but warped beleivers.

[Chester]

I don't hold your view, Chester, that anyone who releases classified documents to unauthorized parties is a "traitor". If the US tries to classify documents on the torture of prisoners so that the people of this country don't find out about it, who is the criminal? The person who performs the torture or the person who tells about it to "unauthorized parties" (meaning "us")?

That's a murky area of ethics/legality and I don't really see the point in discussing it. You're already assuming that this theory of yours is actually the case?

What if all the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay are actually disparate reincarnations of Jesus Christ and that Yee character is really the modern incarnation of St. Paul, and is just trying to spread the Gospel? Would he still be a traitor?

Are you fucking with me or are you actually serious?

You better believe that I'm going to question what I'm told when this is the case, and while Congressman Coble runs around saying that interning Japanese Americans was a good thing.

Right...because Coble is the living embodiment of what our government stands for. And what does Coble have to do with questioning what's told to you. I know you're trying to point out that prejudice and bad juju goes on in the minds of politicians, but:
1. Coble does not speak for all of our assembled governmental representatives.
2. The motherfucker told you what he thinks. What about Coble do you have to question? The problem with Coble, to some extent, is that he didn't lie to you.

And, anyway, nobody ever suggested that you not question what you're told. But in addition to urging you to question what the government's line is, and what the media's line is, I would also suggest that you question the products of your fertile imagination and question the products of general paranoia.

A new climate is being created that very much resembles a police state.

I guess it sounds cool to talk about police states and all, but don't you think you're being a little overdramatic. The state of things today possibly begins to sort of suggest certain aspects of a police state. It does not "very much resemble" a police state. If it did, you wouldn't be able to read this, because you'd be getting beaten with rubber hoses. If this were a police state, this bulletin board probably wouldn't exist, or, if it did, you'd be constantly wondering whether Professor Frink is really a lighthearted Simpsons fanatic, or a government mole sent to sniff out revolutionaries.

If you don't think that's a dangerous state of affairs, I refer you to a fellow YWer's signature which quotes Nazi concentration camp survivor Martin Neimoller who says, "First they came for the communists, and

That's the sloppiest slippery slope argument I've yet seen. If you want to make a point, you're going to have to do better than quoting a statement about the Holocaust.

That is, to make a point, you have to make a point. Also, while I haven't gotten independent verification of this yet, I'm pretty sure that things aren't true just because you say they are.

[mr. x]

man, talk about conspiracy theory

now WHO's conspiring i will not say because i am in no mood to argue

[deez nuts]

There's also the possibility that he's a traitor.


i agree.

[bluetrianglescott]

That's a murky area of ethics/legality and I don't really see the point in discussing it. You're already assuming that this theory of yours is actually the case?

What if all the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay are actually disparate reincarnations of Jesus Christ and that Yee character is really the modern incarnation of St. Paul, and is just trying to spread the Gospel? Would he still be a traitor?

Are you fucking with me or are you actually serious?



Right...because Coble is the living embodiment of what our government stands for. And what does Coble have to do with questioning what's told to you. I know you're trying to point out that prejudice and bad juju goes on in the minds of politicians, but:
1. Coble does not speak for all of our assembled governmental representatives.
2. The motherfucker told you what he thinks. What about Coble do you have to question? The problem with Coble, to some extent, is that he didn't lie to you.

And, anyway, nobody ever suggested that you not question what you're told. But in addition to urging you to question what the government's line is, and what the media's line is, I would also suggest that you question the products of your fertile imagination and question the products of general paranoia.



I guess it sounds cool to talk about police states and all, but don't you think you're being a little overdramatic. The state of things today possibly begins to sort of suggest certain aspects of a police state. It does not "very much resemble" a police state. If it did, you wouldn't be able to read this, because you'd be getting beaten with rubber hoses. If this were a police state, this bulletin board probably wouldn't exist, or, if it did, you'd be constantly wondering whether Professor Frink is really a lighthearted Simpsons fanatic, or a government mole sent to sniff out revolutionaries.



That's the sloppiest slippery slope argument I've yet seen. If you want to make a point, you're going to have to do better than quoting a statement about the Holocaust.

That is, to make a point, you have to make a point. Also, while I haven't gotten independent verification of this yet, I'm pretty sure that things aren't true just because you say they are.

Pardon me for trying to have a civil debate with you. For my part, I will try to refrain from the kind of reudcto ad absurdum style of which you seem so fond and stick to some facts.

Since Sept. 11 2001 the US government has passed a series of laws that represent the biggest assault on civil liberties that any of us have seen in our lifetimes, the most glaring of which is the USA PATRIOT Act, which among other provisions, allows law enforcement to enter your home without a warrant and without your permission OR your knowlege. Information on materials you check out from the library can also be gathered by law enforcement. In that case, not only is it done without your knowlege, but if a librarian discloses that the FBI or other agency has been snooping around asking questions, he or she can be arrested.

Starting in December of last year, adult males from South Asian countries and countries in which Arabs and Muslims form a majority of the population were required to register with immigration officials. As a result of this registration, over 13,000 people now face deportation, NONE of whom are shown to have ANY conection to "terrorism" (which, by way of defninition, one official described as being "what we say it is"). Thousands more Arab, Muslim, and South Asian immigrants are leaving the United States for Canada or their home countries--apparently they'd prefer to take their chances in places like Pakistan than face daily scrutiny in the "Land of the Free". You talk to any Arab or Muslim on the street and you'll find that the fear is palpable.

No one ever said not to question what you're told? Tell that to Ari Fleischer, who in response to some comments by Bill Maher on his now-cancelled show "Politically Incorrect", said, "There are reminders to all Americans that they need to watch what they say, what they do, and this is not a time for remarks like that. There never is."

If you're interested in doing a little digging yourself, you could Google the name of a dear friend of mine, Elizabeth Ito who was fired from her job as a teacher after expressing unpopular views about the war. Let me know what you find.

And what might dear old Howard Coble, my homeboy and fellow Guilford College alumnus have to do with all this? You night go back and look at the story about Coble and see that he is in fact the Chair of the House Subcommittee on Homeland Security. Are you willing to trust someone who is apparently quite willing to go against not just United States policy (I'm referring to the offical apology and reprarations paid to survivors of the camps in 1988) but international standards of human rights, in a position as overseer of the most dramatic intrusion of law enforcement into daily life that you or I have ever seen?

I could go on and on--people are being detained without charges or trial, and that's now legal; immigrants have been disappeared for weeks on end and held incommunicado, their families only finding out where they are after they've been deported; the number of people killed by law enforcement has increased sharply since Sept. 11th, a large percentage of them (in my state around 40%) being people who are mentally or emotionally disturbed; and now John Ashcroft, in his by-invitation-only tour of the US, is telling us that he wants to go even farther.

(So I speculate about what sorts of documents Mr. Yee might have been carrying. Maybe I'm right, though probably not. Who knows? Do you? We do know, however, that the US government has been intimating since Sept. 11 that it is rethinking its position on the use of torture. I'm just saying, if it had been me in his shoes, and I saw torture going on and no one was supposed to know about it, I'd for damn sure want to tell someone. And if that would make a traitor, well, I guess I've gotta ask, a traitor to what?)

Regarding the Neimoler quote, and conditions in Nazi Germany pre-WWII: The political climate that ended in concentration camps and a holocaust began with voluntary registrations of communists, Jews, trade unionists, and other people whose "patriotism" was in question. There are a few lessons to be learned from that quote; one, that when a police state comes it doesn't happen all at once, groups are singled out and isolated one at a time; two, in order to stop a police state you must come to the aid of its very first victims, and QUESTION EVERYTHING YOU'RE TOLD; and three, there will come a point of no return when the reression can no longer be rolled back ("...but by then no one was left to speak up"). That's what you call a police state.

Maybe that won't happen here. But I don't plan to sit back quietly and find out. And you know what? I think it's always a pretty good idea for people to stand up for their rights and the rights of everyone else--even if I'm dead wrong about all this police state stuff (which I'm not) :laugh: .

[Chester]

Pardon me for trying to have a civil debate with you. For my part, I will try to refrain from the kind of reudcto ad absurdum style of which you seem so fond and stick to some facts.

The above provides copious opportunity for sarcastic and pedantic reply, but...I guess I ought to stop nitpicking. So here's a summary...

First, let's go back to my first reply to you. It was pretty specific. You were under the mistaken impression that Bush and Ashcroft can arbitrarily decide who is and who is not a "traitor." I tried to clear up your confusion. You were wondering what "Muslim extremist" meant. I clarified for you.

And then you started talking about how our society is beginning to resemble a police state and I explained how we're still light years away from being a police state.

And, yeah, I think it's silly that you're constructing a complex opinion based upon your assumption/guess that maybe Yee is a human-rights whistle-blower. So I responded in a silly manner.

I've been responding to what you've written, point by point. Your subsequent responses end up being wider and wider and I'm not really sure if you're arguing with me, or if you're just trying to deliver a lecture.

But, hey, let's follow along anyway...

[Snip: a bunch of background material on the Patriot Act and overzealous investigations into backgrounds/activities of immigrants of specific ethnicities.]

We don't have an argument here. But this doesn't amount to a police state...nowhere near. The FBI, CIA, NSA or whatever is still nowhere near even resembling Stasi, the KGB, etc. in their heyday. Hell, they don't even compare to our own Commie-purging past.

No one ever said not to question what you're told? Tell that to Ari Fleischer...

Tell him yourself. My meaning was that, essentially, nobody here on YW told you to not question authority.

If you're interested in doing a little digging yourself, you could Google the name of a dear friend of mine, Elizabeth Ito who was fired from her job as a teacher after expressing unpopular views about the war. Let me know what you find.

How about you find somebody else to be your Google Bitch and then you tell me what he found.

You night go back and look at the story about Coble and see that he is in fact the Chair of the House Subcommittee on Homeland Security. Are you willing to trust someone...

Not necessarily. But that's why I'm not advocating for Coble to be crowned King of America, or Grand Despot of North America and the Cayman Islands. Your remark about Coble was part and parcel to your conclusion that "A new climate is being created that very much resembles a police state." Coble's feelings on WWII internment of Japanese and German Americans has very little to do with whether or not our society resembles a police state. Even the WWII internments dramatically pale in comparison to what truly autocratic police states did.

[Snip: another paragraph about fucked-up Patriot Act shit.]

Yeah, things are fucked up. I never said they weren't. I just think your use of inflammatory rhetoric like "police state" is silly and obscures the reality of the situation. Just because I object to your sensationalism and poor word choice doesn't mean that I support or am ignorant of what is going on in this country.

(So I speculate about what sorts of documents Mr. Yee might have been carrying. Maybe I'm right, though probably not. Who knows? Do you?

No. I just merely said that it's entirely possible that he's a traitor and that I don't see the point in discussing your hypothetical scenarios since I don't imagine that you're actually involved in the trial/investigation.

We do know, however, that the US government has been intimating since Sept. 11 that it is rethinking its position on the use of torture. I'm just saying, if it had been me in his shoes, and I saw torture going on and no one was supposed to know about it, I'd for damn sure want to tell someone. And if that would make a traitor, well, I guess I've gotta ask, a traitor to what?)

Fine. And, again, maybe all the prisoners are reincarnations of Jesus and Yee is the reincarnation of St. Paul, in which case, I gotta ask, is he a traitor?

Do you get what I'm saying? You're obviously spending your energy to construct a scenario in which: A. There is a huge, widespread conspiratorial cover-up of really nefarious and fucked-up torturing of prisoners at Guantanamo, and B. Yee is actually a whistle-blowing hero and now he's being vilified as a traitor via yet another huge, widespread conspiracy intent on covering-up the initial huge, widespread conspiratorial cover-up.

I'll just wait and see what surfaces. But, thus far, your scenario seems far, far less likely than the one that posits him as a plain-and-simple traitor.

Regarding the Neimoler quote, and conditions in Nazi Germany pre-WWII: The political climate that ended in concentration camps and a holocaust began with voluntary registrations of communists, Jews, trade unionists, and other people whose "patriotism" was in question.

There are a few lessons to be learned from that quote; one, that when a police state comes it doesn't happen all at once, groups are singled out and isolated one at a time; two, in order to stop a police state you must come to the aid of its very first victims, and QUESTION EVERYTHING YOU'RE TOLD; and three, there will come a point of no return when the reression can no longer be rolled back ("...but by then no one was left to speak up"). That's what you call a police state.

And...?

Merely describing the process in Germany does not automatically prove that we are on the road to the same progression. To make the slippery slope argument, you actually have to walk through and explain how we'll be following the same progression. You can't just say "things didn't seem so fucked up in the early days of Nazi Germany...so...we're going to be a police state too." It doesn't follow.

Maybe that won't happen here. But I don't plan to sit back quietly and find out. And you know what? I think it's always a pretty good idea for people to stand up for their rights and the rights of everyone else--

You're unnecessarily preaching to the choir here. Obviously nobody really disagrees with you on this, so don't pose such things as if they're a point of contention.

even if I'm dead wrong about all this police state stuff (which I'm not) :laugh: .

If you're reading this, you'd better get your shit together and make a break for the safehouse. The black helicopters are on their way.

[yangbahn50]

If you don't think that's a dangerous state of affairs, I refer you to a fellow YWer's signature which quotes Nazi concentration camp survivor Martin Neimoller who says, "First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist; then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew, then they came for the trade unionists, but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist, and then they came for me...but by then, there was no one left to speak up."

Bluetriangle:

EXACTLY! I'm glad that you know what I'm thinking about. I don't know if it's racism or xenophobism, but I think Capt. Yee is being UNFAIRLY targeted because of his ethnicity AND religion. Yes, I didn't read the article carefully, but it said that his religion is muslim.

And like you said, he could have probably leaked the torture information out to media, or international media. I do know that the US military forces are torturing Al Qaeda members at Guantanamo. Bush better not think us America citizens are stupid (like him) and idly standing by.

You also mentioned something about the ACLU. Do you think they could help Mr. Yee?

Remember Wen Ho Lee and Katrina Leung, they were both charged with numerous accusations, ...but only one charge remained for Mr. Lee and Leung. I'm just worried that the same is applied to Capt. Yee in his case.

[Chester]

EXACTLY! I'm glad that you know what I'm thinking about. I don't know if it's racism or xenophobism, but I think Capt. Yee is being UNFAIRLY targeted because of his ethnicity AND religion. Yes, I didn't read the article carefully, but it said that his religion is muslim.

That was a hilarious paragraph.

Maybe try reading about a situation carefully before levelling charges of bigotry and racism. Information: it's not just for breakfast anymore.

And like you said, he could have probably leaked the torture information out to media, or international media. I do know that the US military forces are torturing Al Qaeda members at Guantanamo.

I'm having a hard time understanding why Yee would go through the cloak-and-dagger routine if Gauntanamo events are so transparent that even you guys know what's going on?

Why is he risking treason charges to reveal torture that you guys ostensibly already know about? Wait...maybe it's because it's not about torture and he found out that Bush and Ashcroft are actually agents working for the Illuminati...

[bluetrianglescott]

Chester--I'm not putting forth this idea that Yee is some sort of human rights activist caught up in an "Enemy of the State" hollywood movie chase as if it were true. I explained that in my last post. I was using this hypothetical scenario to make a point--perhaps it wasn't the best way to make that particular point. I was trying to do two things; one, challenge the knee-jerk response that the media are eliciting in this story about fearing Muslims and foreigners and questioning what we're being told, and two, challenging very idea of what it is to be a "traitor" in these days and times.

Not knowing what Yee is actually accused of (what documents was he smuggling? To whom was he attempting to deliver them?) I tried to back out of the specifics of his case into the political climate in which these accusations are taking place. We know that Muslims are under intense scrutiny and and many are unfairly facing deportation, some have died in custody, others have left the country. We also know that human rights monitors have been denied full access to Guantanamo to see what's going on. More broadly, I gave ample evidence, which you didn't try to take on--in fact you claim to agree with a lot of it--to show the DIRECTION of the police-state slide the country is on. I didn't say that we're IN one (though if you ask a lot of Muslims right now you'll hear something different), just that the tendency is TOWARD one.

So looking at all that, to me, throws the whole notion of "treason" up in the air. I think that the word is virtually meaningless given the undeniable direction society is taking under Bush/Ashcroft. Bill Maher was apparently guilty of treason. I'm sure I am too, according to the Justice department. It's getting to be an awfully big category, the way things are going. Therefore, accusing Yee of treason makes far less sense to me than offering a hypothetical scenario with the purpose of challenging the official line of the government on what constitutes treason in the first place--which I honestly think is the bigger threat to our freedom at this point than anything Mr. Yee maight have done.

[AngryABCGirl]

i agree.

It looks like it might be a possiblity. I haven't looked at the article but I saw on a news report that he might have "gone native."

[Chester]

Chester--I'm not putting forth this idea that Yee is some sort of human rights activist caught up in an "Enemy of the State" hollywood movie chase as if it were true. I explained that in my last post. I was using this hypothetical scenario to make a point--perhaps it wasn't the best way to make that particular point.
I don't think it was. And it came across -- to me at least -- as if you considered the hypothetical to be the more believable scenario.
I was trying to do two things; one, challenge the knee-jerk response that the media are eliciting in this story about fearing Muslims and foreigners and questioning what we're being told,
All fine and good. But here, on this board, you'd be preaching to the choir. The vast majority of the regulars here are people -- in my mind -- who do not put forth knee-jerk responses to the media and who do not fear Muslims or foreigners and who question what they're told.
and two, challenging very idea of what it is to be a "traitor" in these days and times.
A traitor is a traitor. There are clear delineations of what constitutes treason. Remember that people actually have to be convicted of treason. Sure, there are plenty of knuckleheads who bandy the term about loosely. But idiots who exercise poor word choice have always been around. Consider the use of "commie" in our recent past. We haven't even sunk to McCarthyite lows yet, much less your doomsday Nazi scenario.

Not knowing what Yee is actually accused of (what documents was he smuggling? To whom was he attempting to deliver them?)
He reportedly transferred detailed files that document facility diagrams, prisoner manifests, as well as lists of other personnel. Because of his Syrian ties, it is theorized that he may have ties to extremist groups and was trying to funnel information to them for whatever reason.

I guess we'll see as this continues to develop.
I tried to back out of the specifics of his case into the political climate in which these accusations are taking place. We know that Muslims are under intense scrutiny and and many are unfairly facing deportation, some have died in custody, others have left the country. We also know that human rights monitors have been denied full access to Guantanamo to see what's going on.
None of which goes directly to exonerating him. It just creates a backstory to a possible alternate scenario. And there's many possibilities here. I guess this is the crux of it: you seem to have a motivated interest in "proving" that the government is lying to us. Perhaps, to you, this is "questioning what you're told." To me, it's not questioning, but actively trying to refute everything you're told. It's your right, but to me, questioning means that you don't assume that things are true or false on their surface. You don't assume and try to work out ways in which they're false, otherwise you set up your own personal agenda.
More broadly, I gave ample evidence, which you didn't try to take on--in fact you claim to agree with a lot of it--to show the DIRECTION of the police-state slide the country is on. I didn't say that we're IN one (though if you ask a lot of Muslims right now you'll hear something different), just that the tendency is TOWARD one.
But you didn't show the tendency and you didn't show the direction. You merely described the present state and then threw out a quote about the Holocaust. If you want to play connect the dots, then connect the dots.

And let's not forget how this started. You wrote:
A new climate is being created that very much resembles a police state
...which I think is a ridiculous assertion. We're nowhere near even resembling a police state. This doesn't mean that I don't think the government is overstepping boundaries in many situations. It just means that I don't like seeing inflammatory and exaggerated rhetoric.
So looking at all that, to me, throws the whole notion of "treason" up in the air.
No, actually...it doesn't. "Treason" is still a pretty distinct notion to me. And it will be to anyone who levels that charge.
I think that the word is virtually meaningless given the undeniable direction society is taking under Bush/Ashcroft.
1. The direction is deniable as you still haven't demonstrated it.
2. The word still has meaning. You can't just say things and expect folks to agree. Prove it.
Bill Maher was apparently guilty of treason.
According to whom? Nobody in the government accused him of treason. Go back and read your Ari Fleischer quote again. I didn't see "treason" or "traitor" anywhere in that. To my knowledge, nobody with the power to enforce the charge of treason levelled that word against Bill Maher. It was mostly people upset at him for being extremely untactful.

So far, you're the only person I've heard mention "Bill Maher" and "treason" in the same sentence.
I'm sure I am too, according to the Justice department. It's getting to be an awfully big category, the way things are going.
No it's not. You're once again running into the sticky reality of actually backing up your pronouncements. How many people have been convicted of treason since September 11th?

Even John Walker Lindh was not convicted of treason and that moron enlisted in a foreign military force and possibly took up arms against his own country.

The concepts of "treason" and "traitor" are still very distinct. You're the only person who seems to be confused about those terms.
Therefore, accusing Yee of treason makes far less sense to me than offering a hypothetical scenario with the purpose of challenging the official line of the government on what constitutes treason in the first place
That doesn't make sense to me. It makes sense to grasp at fantastic scenarios rather than simply examining the evidence at hand?

[yangbahn50]

Chester,

First of all, are you Asian? If not, you shouldn't talk as if you know what many of us Asians are thinking.

I think Yee is a great guy.

Just because he has ties to Islamic groups doesn't mean the military should incarcerate him in a military "brig" somewhere in S. Carolina.

And another thing you don't know dude.
The topic is how Mr. Yee is being treated while being incarcerated in prison. I know how those racist red-necked marines can be towards prisoners, even guys of their own who are accused of minor so called "crimes." (which I see as full of horse sh*t).

Imagine yourself just doing your ordinary task while serving in the military (if you even have any military experience as an Asian). Then one day, idiotic redtape soldiers handcuff you without any reasons.

I highly doubt you will be siding against Mr. Yee if that happened to you huh?

[SunWuKong]

Imagine yourself just doing your ordinary task while serving in the military (if you even have any military experience as an Asian). Then one day, idiotic redtape soldiers handcuff you without any reasons.


i hardly think he was just doing "his ordinary task", if he had all that information on his laptop and supposedly emailed them out.

[yangbahn50]

Yeah but what are those "information" Mr. yee was e-mailing out? It could have just been a list of the detainees.

Big F-D!

I know the US military's red-tape structure. Soldiers have no rights to have an attorney, and military lifestyle is different from civilian lifestyle. The military brigs are complete hell-holes. I wonder if Mr. Yee is being fed properly.

Plus what was your reaction to the WenHoLee case? Did you just say, "Oh, Wen ho Lee is guilty for spying." OR did you say, "Gosh, why is the US government being so racist?" If you said the former, you are completely oblivious to Asians being targeted by the US government. I know because I have served in the US Air Force, and trust me, it's tought being a minority, esp. an Asian since they only comprise 10% of the AIr Force body.

Folks like CHESTer and applehead are applying civilian lifestyle to Mr. Yee's case. I'm glad that Blue Triangle is analyzing this case in a different way.

That's just my thought.

[applehead]

Folks like CHESTer and applehead are applying civilian lifestyle to Mr. Yee's case.


you're getting your threads confused.
i didn't even comment on this particular topic.

[SunWuKong]

Yeah but what are those "information" Mr. yee was e-mailing out? It could have just been a list of the detainees.

Big F-D!

I know the US military's red-tape structure. Soldiers have no rights to have an attorney, and military lifestyle is different from civilian lifestyle. The military brigs are complete hell-holes. I wonder if Mr. Yee is being fed properly.

Plus what was your reaction to the WenHoLee case? Did you just say, "Oh, Wen ho Lee is guilty for spying." OR did you say, "Gosh, why is the US government being so racist?" If you said the former, you are completely oblivious to Asians being targeted by the US government. I know because I have served in the US Air Force, and trust me, it's tought being a minority, esp. an Asian since they only comprise 10% of the AIr Force body.

Folks like CHESTer and applehead are applying civilian lifestyle to Mr. Yee's case. I'm glad that Blue Triangle is analyzing this case in a different way.

That's just my thought.

well, i don't know. there's obviously no transparency with the investigation of what James Yee did. so if the military is really trying to screw him over, then he's pretty much screwed. on the other hand, it's entirely possible that he really is a traitor. you cannot discount that just because he's Asian. the government has targetted Asian people as scapegoats before, because they're Asian, but at the same time, you cannot freely give people the benefit of the doubt just because they're Asian.

[yangbahn50]

Sukwon:

Yeah, but look at previous allegation incidents aimed at Asians.

Examples as I repeat over and over...Wen Ho Lee.

He was "accused" of spying for China by storing valuable information (which was actually found value-less in court). He had PLENTY of charges pressed against him. It was not until he was tried in US Federal court where all but one minor charge was pressed against him.
Ah, so after the court case, you say that Wen Ho Lee was not a spy huh?

In addition, there's Katrina Leung, a Chinese-American. She was charged with espionage for aiding China. She was the FBI agent who took some paper (or some sh*t like that) from her boyfriend's briefcase.

The same thing here too as that of Wen Ho's case! The majority of charges pressed against her was "thrown out" of the court room. Wow, so after all, Katrina Leung was not acting as a double agent for Beijing huh?

Now on to Mr. Yee. True, maybe he could be a spy "just because he's Muslim." Hahahaha. Just because you're a muslim, and have ties to a muslim group in the US, doesn't mean the military should incarcerate him in a military brig (which is, like I've said, WORSE than county jails). The soldier guards treat prisoners like shit in brigs, and assault them too. This is what concerns me. Not only because Mr. Yee is Asian, but because of the fact that he could be tortured or mistreated while locked up.

[SunWuKong]

Sukwon:

Yeah, but look at previous allegation incidents aimed at Asians.

Examples as I repeat over and over...Wen Ho Lee.

He was "accused" of spying for China by storing valuable information (which was actually found value-less in court). He had PLENTY of charges pressed against him. It was not until he was tried in US Federal court where all but one minor charge was pressed against him.
Ah, so after the court case, you say that Wen Ho Lee was not a spy huh?

In addition, there's Katrina Leung, a Chinese-American. She was charged with espionage for aiding China. She was the FBI agent who took some paper (or some sh*t like that) from her boyfriend's briefcase.

The same thing here too as that of Wen Ho's case! The majority of charges pressed against her was "thrown out" of the court room. Wow, so after all, Katrina Leung was not acting as a double agent for Beijing huh?

Now on to Mr. Yee. True, maybe he could be a spy "just because he's Muslim." Hahahaha. Just because you're a muslim, and have ties to a muslim group in the US, doesn't mean the military should incarcerate him in a military brig (which is, like I've said, WORSE than county jails). The soldier guards treat prisoners like shit in brigs, and assault them too. This is what concerns me. Not only because Mr. Yee is Asian, but because of the fact that he could be tortured or mistreated while locked up.


firstly, we don't know yet if Katrina Leung really is a spy or not. secondly, Chinese spies have indeed been caught before, trying to smuggle technologies to China, because the US has not sold "sensitive" technology to China since 1989. thirdly, ask just about anybody in China and they'd agree that there are Chinese spies in the US.

[bluetrianglescott]

I still am having a problem even using the word "traitor". To me it's almost a meaningless term.

I disagree I think both with Chester and SWK in being able to apply the term to Mr. Yee, or being able to apply it at all. I think it's an illusion to believe that somehow you can define the term in the abstract, SEPARATE from who is in power right now, as if there were some ideal, unchanging definition of what consititues treason. The people who are in POWER decide what treason is, not you or me. That's not some radical, conspiratorial concept. People presumably vote for candidates who are going to push policy in a certain direction, right? So if we've got a neo-conservative pre-emptive war-mongering clique in power right now who are shredding the constitution, passing repressive legislation, demonizing immigrants, publicly challenging the "patriotism" of talk show hosts, passing special laws to curb dissent (the so-called "free speech zones"), hell, I think it's pretty obvious that a change in policy is in full effect. All these practices expand the notion of "treason" in the public mind and in actual practice.

It's no accident that "Treason" is the title of the new book by borderline psychopath and Fox News pundit (I think the two terms are interchangeable) Ann Coulter, and that the target is dissenters of the liberal persuasion. Here's a choice quote from the dust jacket: “Liberals have a preternatural gift for always striking a position on the side of treason. Everyone says liberals love America, too. No, they don’t." Ideological ground is being laid every day that narrows the realm of acceptable dissent. "Treason" is more and more often equated with what used to be ordniary dissent. Laws that never existed before have been passed and are being used to detain people without charges and deport people with no proof whatsoever of connection to terrorism.

(You can pretend that it's not that way, or that we will somehow be safer as a result of these new laws and the new climate of suspicion, but can you IMAGINE that the trajectory we're on will somehow lead to greater freedom and equality? Someone's going to have to explain to me how that will work because I can't see how praising internment camps, requiring special registrations for certain immigrants, expanding police powers, and a policy of pre-emptive war are going to make ANYONE free.)

I argue that in this climate it is CRUCIAL to challenge the offical line, whether it's in Yee's case, Elizabeth Ito's case, or Guantanamo, or Jose Padilla, or the Israeli Arab in my town who was accused of stealing cookie recipes and got labelled a "potential terrorist" by whom the DA's office (An Al-Cookie cell right here in my town!). If you DON'T fight it, it WILL expand. I think yangbahn grasps this because he's lived in a situation of being "government property" with no real rights.

[SunWuKong]

I still am having a problem even using the word "traitor". To me it's almost a meaningless term.

I disagree I think both with Chester and SWK in being able to apply the term to Mr. Yee, or being able to apply it at all.

well hold on. i'm not saying he definitely is a traitor. i'm only saying that i'm open to the possibility that he may or may not be.


I argue that in this climate it is CRUCIAL to challenge the offical line, whether it's in Yee's case, Elizabeth Ito's case, or Guantanamo, or Jose Padilla, or the Israeli Arab in my town who was accused of stealing cookie recipes and got labelled a "potential terrorist" by whom the DA's office (An Al-Cookie cell right here in my town!). If you DON'T fight it, it WILL expand. I think yangbahn grasps this because he's lived in a situation of being "government property" with no real rights.

that's fine. but he was in the military and if the bottom line was that he was doing something he wasn't supposed to be doing, then the military would be justified in punishing him. not everyone is being patriotic when they misbehave.

[bluetrianglescott]

well hold on. i'm not saying he definitely is a traitor. i'm only saying that i'm open to the possibility that he may or may not be.


I didn't mean to imply that you had come to that conclusion--I just mentioned you because you had used the word. My point is that a government that rides roughshod over the world and tramples people's rights has no moral authority to label anyone a "traitor". The very word implies betraying a government. Now, someone who does something that harms innocent people may be betraying humanity, but a government who pays people to do the same thing, or does the same thing itself, is in no position to call anyone a traitor.

[Chester]

I still am having a problem even using the word "traitor". To me it's almost a meaningless term.

[Snip: a whole bunch of stuff that fails to address anything that I've specifically brought up.]


If you want to proselytize here, that's fine. But if you actually want a discussion, have the courtesy of responding to things put in front of you. Or just own up to the fact that you haven't thought things through very thoroughly.

This all started out with your stating that the term "traitor" no longer has meaning because Bush and Ashcroft are supposedly throwing it about, willy-nilly, with unprecedented frequency.

I call "bullshit" on that.

First, who, specifically, has Bush or Ashcroft or anyone in their administration labeled a traitor? You bring up Bill Maher's name for some inexplicable reason (he was never called a traitor by Bush, Ashcroft, or anyone in the administration.

Secondly, who has actually been convicted of treason? Where are these massive numbers of treason convictions you allude to?

Third, what is with your inability to comprehend the words "treason" and "traitor"? I find myself confused by "crunk," but "traitor" is, like...it's in the dictionary. It's a charge that is codified in law. People get prosecuted for, convicted, or exonerated for treason. There are long-standing standards for what does or what does not constitute treason, and they still exist today under the Bush presidency.

Have you bothered to look up what constitutes treason by law? Have you bothered to look up whether or not the standards for treason have changed over the years or recently? Have you bothered to look up how few people have ever been convicted of treason? Have you bothered to look up how many people are currently being prosecuted for treason and how many people have recently been convicted of it?

Or are you just spouting off, extemporaneously, avoiding points that I bring up, that contradict most of the specious pronouncements you've been making?

You're obviously a relatively intelligent guy, but when you start referring to phrases on the dustjackets of Ann Coulter and pretend as if they have any bearing on the laws of our nation, you lose a lot of credibility.

As I said before, if you want to play connect-the-dots, you actually have to connect the dots.

[bluetrianglescott]

What are you, a fucking lawyer? I could connect dots all day but you would refer to them as something else. You can narrow everything down to what laws were passed, or how many people have been prosecuted under the legal definition of treason, and miss seeing the forest for the trees, and make yourself feel very happy and smug, which doesn't appear to be too hard for you. But I think you'll find yourself in disagreement with some of the country's foremost legal scholars, left and right, if you ignore my main point, which is that a POLITICAL climate is being created through the passage of laws and through popular culture which is a very large threat indeed to the civil liberties of the people of this country, starting with those most immediately demonized in the wake of 9/11, namely Muslim, Arab, and South Asian immigrants.

I'm also not intersted in getting into a pissing contest with you. I tried to bring others into the discussion. So sue me for not giving you all my attention, Counselor.

[Chester]

What are you, a fucking lawyer?
Hey now...there's no need for such inflammatory accusations! (With all respect to Kasia) How dare you! Ha.
I'm also not intersted in getting into a pissing contest with you.
You could've fooled me. That's all you seem to be doing, seeing as how you don't ever respond to any specific questions/challenges that are made to your unsubstantiated proclamations.

If you want to say that "treason" is a meaningless word nowadays because the Bush administration defines it in whatever way they find it convenient, you have to prove it. If you don't, you're being inaccurate, at best, or defamatory and dishonest, at worst.

Like when you write something like...
"Treason" is more and more often equated with what used to be ordniary dissent.
...you have the responsibility of substantiated your claim. What incidents of "ordinary dissent" have resulted in charges of treason?

As someone who holds the current administration in great disdain and can't fucking wait to vote out that illiterate baboon, I find it really frustrating to see people like you make all of us Bush detractors look like we can't string more than two points along a logical continuum.
But I think you'll find yourself in disagreement with some of the country's foremost legal scholars, left and right,
It's amusing how you are so in tune with "some of the country's foremost legal scholars" but, somehow, are totally incapable of understanding the long-standing legal standards for treason.
if you ignore my main point, which is that a POLITICAL climate is being created through the passage of laws and through popular culture which is a very large threat indeed to the civil liberties of the people of this country, starting with those most immediately demonized in the wake of 9/11, namely Muslim, Arab, and South Asian immigrants.
Nice to see that you have a main point. We don't disagree that there are a lot of latter-day instances of legal and perhaps extra-legal government actions that are distressing, from a civil rights/liberties perspective.

If you would stop there, we'd be copacetic. But you also claimed that we resemble a police state. I pointed out how that was a ludicrous assertion. Instead of supporting your argument or backing down from it, you just spun the argument out into a wider gyre -- just like you did when you were confronted with the fact that "treason" has a very solid, established definition and that your hysterical "confusion" is tantamount to unsubstantiated alarmism.

It could be more than that, but, again, you would neither support your argument nor back down from it and spiraled things out to a more general and -- for you -- a more forgiving scope.

Yeah, when I get frustrated, I get acerbic. But I'm still on point. I still have been responding to you, point-by-point, even though, for me, that meant discarding a lot of the generalized filler you like to "respond" with. Am I patronizing you? Maybe. Maybe people think I'm being insulting. You think I'm being smug.

Well...while I've maybe been patronizing and insulting, I haven't been smug. I'm not trying to "win the argument" or whatever. In fact, I agree with the general gist of what you believe: that some bad shit is going on. But I do think that you exaggerate things by a wide margin and use language that is both incendiary and inaccurate. So I'm calling you on all the various ways you're overstepping the bounds of logic because your brand of rhetoric just makes our general viewpoint look uninformed and unconsidered.

You could either respond by backing up your claims or you could continue to leave points unaddressed and, whenever contradicted, move on to more general territories where you can spout off about just about anything.

Yangbahn seems to really enjoy the latter option, so maybe you're on the right track.

[yangbahn50]

but he was in the military and if the bottom line was that he was doing something he wasn't supposed to be doing, then

SUKWAN. How dare you label me as a personnel who did something wrong in the military!!!!!

You don't know about life in the military. Perhaps you ought to march to your local military recruit, and see how f-cking conservative and communist the US military lifestyle is.

Heck, military soldiers are stressed day by day. It's not like you run around the military base with your tight underwear at 5:00AM. You also DON"T have the right to have an attorney with you if you commit a crime.

Racist is also RAMPANT in the US military. Take a look at that Muslim dude who threw grenades at his colleagues during the Iraq war. I bet those soldiers were making fun of him because he was Muslim.

THINK bud!

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Perhaps you ought to march to your local military recruit, and see how f-cking conservative and communist the US military lifestyle is.
Conservative and communist? Damn, that international conspiracy of bankers and Bolsheviks is everywhere. Just look what happened to Germany and Malaysia! :p

[AliBabaIncorporated]

How dare you label me as a personnel who did something wrong in the military!!!!!
Wait a minute, you're James Yee?

Oh by the way SunWuKong isn't a Korean guy named Sukwan, he's a mythological monkey.

[SunWuKong]

but he was in the military and if the bottom line was that he was doing something he wasn't supposed to be doing, thenSUKWAN. How dare you label me as a personnel who did something wrong in the military!!!!!

You don't know about life in the military. Perhaps you ought to march to your local military recruit, and see how f-cking conservative and communist the US military lifestyle is.

Heck, military soldiers are stressed day by day. It's not like you run around the military base with your tight underwear at 5:00AM. You also DON"T have the right to have an attorney with you if you commit a crime.

Racist is also RAMPANT in the US military. Take a look at that Muslim dude who threw grenades at his colleagues during the Iraq war. I bet those soldiers were making fun of him because he was Muslim.

THINK bud!


hey buddy, learn to read better. i wrote "if the bottom line was that he was doing something he wasn't supposed to be doing"

and i wasn't talking about you, i was talking about James Yee. or are you James Yee?

[SunWuKong]

anyway. let's concentrate on discussing the topic instead of discussing other members. this is a good topic and i'd hate to close it because there's too much flaming going on.

[AngryABCGirl]

.... (looks at the debating)

Has anymore news come out about this?

[yangbahn50]

aznbuff:

Not that I know of. My main concern is how Mr. Yee is being treated in the military "brig" (or military hell house) in S. Carolina.

I don't know if he's being fed well, or being mistreated by the military soldier guards.

Trust me, those military guards are monsters (esp. since they are from the Marine unit).

Would you recommend that I contact ACLU regarding this?

[bluetrianglescott]

My 2 cents:

Mr Yee = Muslim terrorist who'll support anyone Muslim, even if they are terrorists, ahead of any American.

OK, and you think that because...?

[bluetrianglescott]

hey, buddy, just asking...

[Chester]

Why do I have to give an explanation to you? It was just my two cents.
Well, at least it was properly-priced.

[bluetrianglescott]

But I will say that I just love how "muslim=terrorist" doesn't seem to require any explanation or proof.

[Commando_turned_MD]

Death,.....Damn POS.....
It seems these folks can't be trusted........................................... ...............

[deez nuts]

Death,.....Damn POS.....
It seems these folks can't be trusted........................................... ...............


yup i agree

[Danny]

Knowing many military guards, and knowing many in the JAG I can say that this guy is 'most likely' NOT being mistreated. There is a military code of conduct that the military follows in regards to their own. The Marines may be total animals in regards to actions and the like, but the Marines are also the most brainwashed in regards to the military code of conduct. They take that shit a lot more serious than any of the other branches do.... those bastards are crazy as fuck.

aznbuff:

Not that I know of. My main concern is how Mr. Yee is being treated in the military "brig" (or military hell house) in S. Carolina.

I don't know if he's being fed well, or being mistreated by the military soldier guards.

Trust me, those military guards are monsters (esp. since they are from the Marine unit).

Would you recommend that I contact ACLU regarding this?

[Emperor_Mike]

I'm a bit out of the loop news wise (this isn't that big of an issue here in the UK, let alone Durham) but having read the previous posts on the subject, I've surmised that there are many assumptions here and very few facts. Of course, when it comes to debating it's all in good fun, but what exactly do we know about Yee and his alleged terrorist ties and alleged status as a traitor? The last time I checked he was incarcerated, as some of you have already mentioned, but as far as I know all this talk of ill-treatment, profiling, scapegoating (etc.) is nothing but conjecture at this point.

My view on this is, if the allegations against Mr. Yee are true, then he ought to receive a brand of punishment most suited to the crime. Otherwise, if he gets "off the hook" and is released, he'll probably relate his experiences to friends and family and from there I suppose it wouldn't at all be unreasonable to expect that a story or book would come of it in some fashion.

While we're on the topic of terrorists and treason, I would like to point out that the aforementioned terms are relative to the opinions harboured by the interlocutor or interlocutors. As such, this "enlightenment" of terms (of sorts) ought to create a new dimension to the issue, I think. However, I don't suppose anyone with a neutral state of mind (that is to say, a non-biased one) would take it upon himself or herself to defend Mr. Yee's position, to be sure one that is fraught with uncertainty as to whether he has committed crimes of treason against his country.

In any case, perhaps more information will present itself at a later date so as to assist this discussion with more facts and fewer assumptions.