the Westernising/Americanising effect

[SunWuKong]

let me start off by saying that my experiences have mostly been limited to life in the US and life in HK, so my perspectives are a bit narrow. i would like members with other perspectives to contribute their observations here.

what i want to talk about is Westernisation, but i'll basically just talk about language, assuming that it is the "gateway" to a culture and probably the foremost thing in experiencing a culture.

what i've noticed of Westerners in HK is that many of them don't speak Cantonese, and that they don't need to speak Cantonese to get by. but the reverse cannot be said of most Asians in the US. most Asian people i know in the US speak and need to speak at least passable conversational English.

now, maybe comparing HK to the entire country of US is not a correct comparison. after all, HK is a city, so maybe a comparison need to be made of individual US cities. there are plenty of people living in ethnic enclaves in the US that can't string together a full English sentence. my grandmother is one of them and she's been in the US for close to 20 years now. and one of our members mentioned that even though she was born and raised in LA, she spoke fluent Chinese and had difficulties with English when she was a little kid. on the other hand, there are plenty of people living in ethnic enclaves that can still speak conversational English, and kids that grew up in ethnic enclaves eventually learn fluent English. the same cannot be said of the Westerners in HK. most Westerners in HK can't speak Cantonese, and even many of the Westerner kids that grew up in HK may not speak Cantonese.

perhaps this phenomenon is specific to HK, being that HK is one of the most Westernised cities in Asia, and being that English materials are made widely available. maybe we can even chalk it up to the fact that Cantonese is notoriously difficult for Westerners to acquire as a second language. and perhaps there's something about the US that especially causes people to Westernise.

what do you think?

[kitty]

It's interesting that you say that because my visit to Beijing was the opposite. I saw a lot of non-Asians, presumably children of diplomats, ambassarors, or businessmen stationed there, who spoke fluent Mandarin better than I could hope to. True, I saw them at the street market where they will take every dime you own if you don't speak the language, but still -- it was proving that it could be done.

I wonder if perhaps it's because HK used to be a British colony and therefore there are aspects of the city that cater towards British rule and thus English as an accepted alternative language? Just a thought tho'...

[SunWuKong]

I wonder if perhaps it's because HK used to be a British colony and therefore there are aspects of the city that cater towards British rule and thus English as an accepted alternative language? Just a thought tho'...


yeah that's what i was thinking, too, that this phenomenon is particular to HK, because it's one of the most Westernised cities in Asia. and also because Cantonese is very difficult to learn, and whereas Mandarin has less tones and has pinyin to help foreigners with pronounciation, Cantonese doesn't even have a standard romanisation and it's very difficult to figure out.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Dunno, the foreigners in Malaysia don't seem to bother learning BM. And it is incredibly easy to learn at least the basics. Roman letters, easy pronunciation, no verb conjugations or noun declensions, and no tones. I guess cuz M'sia also used to be a British colony. Japanese businessmen I guess are most likely to speak it, cuz it's a big advantage in engineering-type professions where you might have to work with a lot of uneducated laborers (Japanese run a lot of municipal engineering projects), cuz they're not too confident in their English communication abilities, and cuz they look like local Chinese, so people on the street might try BM with them first.

The Japanese businessmen in HK seem to speak more Cantonese than the Westerners too. The language school attached to the university I studied at was full of Japanese housewives studying Cantonese, whereas with maybe 2 exceptions the only Americans or Europeans there were missionaries. Japanese kids don't usually speak any Cantonese though, I guess cuz not many locals attend the Japanese international schools.

As for everyone else in Malaysia: Arabs and Africans who are studying at public/religious unis learn the most BM out of any foreigners I've met, maybe cuz they're surrounded by Malays speaking it all the time. (Private school kids don't try as much, though). Oh yeah and Africans who like to wear hats have to learn how to say "Sorry I don't speak Tamil" in Tamil :p

Westerners tend not to bother. But weirdly enough lots of the Westerners speak some Hokkien or Cantonese though. I guess cuz irreligious Chinese girls are easier than Muslim Malay girls and more likely to show up in the Western bars/clubs, and the general public and especially the fucking religious police give you a lot less shit for taking one to a hotel.

[SunWuKong]

The Japanese businessmen in HK seem to speak more Cantonese than the Westerners too. The language school attached to the university I studied at was full of Japanese housewives studying Cantonese, whereas with maybe 2 exceptions the only Americans or Europeans there were missionaries. Japanese kids don't usually speak any Cantonese though, I guess cuz not many locals attend the Japanese international schools.

is that because Cantonese is easier to learn for Japanese speakers than English? or maybe the difficulty between the two for Japanese speakers is negligible so they might as well go for Cantonese?

As for everyone else in Malaysia: Arabs and Africans who are studying at public/religious unis learn the most BM out of any foreigners I've met, maybe cuz they're surrounded by Malays speaking it all the time. (Private school kids don't try as much, though). Oh yeah and Africans who like to wear hats have to learn how to say "Sorry I don't speak Tamil" in Tamil :p

hahhah yeah one of the first things i learnt to say fluently in Mandarin was §Úªº°ê»y»¡±o¤£¦n (i don't speak very well mandarin). :p

[AngryABCGirl]

I think America has a very ethnocentric culture and an education that reinenforces that and honestly isn't very tolerant, ie teaching kids only about American Holidays and traditions at a young age and trying to ignore everything else. I think that's why most young kids who try to reject Asian culture do it because they think it's not fit in their world. I still remember being in ESL was not cool.

As for languages, there are a lot of random people in the San Gabriel Valley who can speak Asian langauges and Spanish, even if they aren't part of the Ethnic groups that speak it, me being one of them. If that means learning and accepting other people's cultures, I think that's cool. I've been attempting to learn to speak Cantonese and after a few phrases it breaks into a scolding Mandarin. Is it true that it's easy to learn Mandarin if you alread know Cantonese but a bitch the other way around?

[SunWuKong]

Is it true that it's easy to learn Mandarin if you already know Cantonese but a bitch the other way around?

i wouldn't know from personal experience how hard it is for Mandarin speakers to learn Cantonese, but i seem to notice that Mandarin speakers have a more difficult time with Cantonese than Cantonese speakers with Mandarin. the most difficult time i have with Mandarin is getting used to the tongue positions in some Mandarin consonants. like curling my tongue while sounding the "sh" sound.

you know what i've noticed? a lot of Mandarin speaking girls sound like Shu Qi when they try to speak Cantonese. it's really cute. do you have that accent?