Diversity vs. Integration [Archive]

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RasFarengi

08-02-2003, 05:33 PM

I think the whole idea of diversity sounds good in a scholarly journal or over some pseudo-intellectual coffee house discussion but in reality I am not sure it is going to work. Diversity, comes from diverse, and shares the same root as other words such as division, divide. I do not believe this is a positive thing for a country.

I look at the present and back at history and I cannot find a country where the majority ethnic/racial/or religious group openly shares power with a minority and treats them equally. There is always discrimination, because this is human nature. I think America is better at this than some countries, but we all know that there is discrimination in this country. Some people argue that as America becomes a “brown” nation, as the white population decreases things will get better. I don’t think so. I think things will get worse.

From my knowledge of history societies where there is no clear majority are prone to instability. The only country I can think of where this has not been the case is Switzerland, but the history of Switzerland is very unique and the language groups live pretty much self-segregated into areas where their language and sub-culture is practiced.

So looking at integration…I also can’t find an example in history where the majority just openly accepted the minorities and willingly allowed them to maintain a separate culture, religion, etc. There was usually forced integration by the minority, basically cultural genocide in which the minority culture was largely destroyed, and/or integration by marriage, which usually involved men marrying the minority women, but sometimes the other way around (not often).

The advantages of a unified integrated society is society stability, because people have the same cultural values and ideas. The implications of this are obvious. The society is more efficient. There will always be opposition but it will not be as strong as when you have multiple ethnicities with various languages and cultural standards trying to accomplish something. Personally as I grow older I lean far more toward integration than diversity, becuase I am starting to care about the future of the society I would raise my children in.

What do you think?

krome

08-02-2003, 05:47 PM

Problem with diversity in America is that kids don't even know their "own" cultures well enough to represent them authentically to add to the pot. So, instead of "diverse" you get "vague" monolithic culture. Which is basically pop culture beamed into our heads thru MTV and the b00b tube.

AliBabaIncorporated

08-02-2003, 08:19 PM

Gotta agree with krome on this one ... the most dangerous kind of diversity is the one where everyone's actually the same, but feels insistent on "celebrating their diversity" and being "unique" and "different" from each other, so they divide along the most superficial lines, and call it multiculturalism.

But there are plenty of examples in history where a minority culture lived in another country, and maintained its separate culture, while still participating in the national political life. Malaysia's certainly one. We're at least somewhat democratic, though less so than the US. Minorities suffer legalized oppression. But on the other hand, the system is set up to facilitate separateness from the mainstream for everyone (including the majority race --- a crucial difference from the US) if they really want it --- we all have our own separate spheres to retreat to, as well as the mainstream.

Almost all of the generation of Malaysian Chinese above me was born in Malaysia. Almost a quarter of them can't hold a conversation in BM. Maybe 2% of them converted to Islam. In my generation, I guess everyone can speak BM, but that just means we can join in mainstream life. We still haven't lost our identity.

RasFarengi

08-02-2003, 10:07 PM

But there are plenty of examples in history where a minority culture lived in another country, and maintained its separate culture, while still participating in the national political life. Malaysia's certainly one. We're at least somewhat democratic, though less so than the US. Minorities suffer legalized oppression. But on the other hand, the system is set up to facilitate separateness from the mainstream for everyone (including the majority race --- a crucial difference from the US) if they really want it --- we all have our own separate spheres to retreat to, as well as the mainstream.

I don't think that most Americans want or envision a country like that. The idea currently seems to be that we are all supposed to be equal and American, but also have our own unique culture. I do not believe that is possible.

Malaysia is not a good example, as you said their is "legalized discrimination.." and correct me if I am wrong but their have been ethnic riots, and hell SIngapore split from Malaysia due to ethnic issues. There is obviously deep divides in the society, also Malay are the clear majority.

I do believe that as long as whites are the clear majority, America will be stable, but when that is no longer the case, I think stability will be out the door. I also think hate crimes will continue to increase as whites realize they are losing political power to minority groups and feel "their country" is being taken from them. I have already heard whites express things like this on TV. Their was a special on PBS talking about the "browning of America" and some middle class white people made a statement to the effect, "I don't want to be a minority in my own country." :( I wonder how many more feel like that and will increasingly take their aggression out on minorities that they will increasingly not be able to get away from?

I fully believe that as the white population decreases as a percentage of the population and more foreigners keep immigrating here and do not want to integrate, as long as we have minorities (who are ever increasing in number) calling for multiculturalism and diversity over integration America will be less and less stable, it will become a "cleft country" along racial and linguistic lines (rapid rise of hispanics in the Southwest, so fast that and in such high numbers they do not intergrate culturally)...

For every example you can give me where their is a country in history that has delt with this peacefully, I can give you 10 or more where the country has fell apart into civil war.

One thing that is somewhat related to this that I look at is "white flight..." White's have a clear tolerance for certain ethnic groups. Too many blacks move in the whites move out...or in recent times, whites will move into an all black or Latin neighborhood build fenced in secure fenced-in fortress condos or buy up brownstones and old houses, drive up the price and push the minorities out. So it works on both sides that whites end up with mostly white neighborhoods. It really doesn't matter the ethnic group, even Asians...if too many Asians move in, whites will move out...but whites have a much higher tolerance for Asians it seems, and Asians are not that much of the population anyway.

I often wonder what will happen where their is not place else to "fly too..."

coagulated fat

08-02-2003, 11:24 PM

Ras, you had said earlier in the Hapa forum that many hapas living in America lack strong ties to their Asian heritage through language, customs, and etc. You said that this was sad. I don't understand how that ties in with your belief that integration is preferable to creating a diverse society.

I do agree with what is being said here though, yay integration. Another question, how would minority races or cultures be integrated? Would small pieces of the culture be integrated into the whole (like the whole "melting pot" idea) or would they get swallowed up in the majority and eventually completely erased?

SunWuKong

08-02-2003, 11:35 PM

not much difference between the American idea of what "diversity" is and what integration is, in my opinion.

AngryABCGirl

08-03-2003, 12:19 AM

America's warped vision of diversity is a bunch of different colors all acting alike. Most Americans you meet won't have a problem with you based on the color of your skin, but you talk to somebody in a way that only another person with the culture of your skin understands or you do something the mainstream finds foreign, they'll have a problem. America doesn't really want cultural diversity, it wants integration. Unless it starts accepting cultural diversity, everyone who doesn't act "American" or doesn't give up a former cultural identity, it isn't going to be a pretty picture.

gangsta_T

08-03-2003, 01:50 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 2 2003, 04:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I think the whole idea of diversity sounds good in a scholarly journal or over some pseudo-intellectual coffee house discussion but in reality I am not sure it is going to work. Diversity, comes from diverse, and shares the same root as other words such as division, divide. I do not believe this is a positive thing for a country.

I look at the present and back at history and I cannot find a country where the majority ethnic/racial/or religious group openly shares power with a minority and treats them equally. There is always discrimination, because this is human nature. I think America is better at this than some countries, but we all know that there is discrimination in this country. Some people argue that as America becomes a “brown” nation, as the white population decreases things will get better. I don’t think so. I think things will get worse.

From my knowledge of history societies where there is no clear majority are prone to instability. The only country I can think of where this has not been the case is Switzerland, but the history of Switzerland is very unique and the language groups live pretty much self-segregated into areas where their language and sub-culture is practiced.

So looking at integration…I also can’t find an example in history where the majority just openly accepted the minorities and willingly allowed them to maintain a separate culture, religion, etc. There was usually forced integration by the minority, basically cultural genocide in which the minority culture was largely destroyed, and/or integration by marriage, which usually involved men marrying the minority women, but sometimes the other way around (not often).

The advantages of a unified integrated society is society stability, because people have the same cultural values and ideas. The implications of this are obvious. The society is more efficient. There will always be opposition but it will not be as strong as when you have multiple ethnicities with various languages and cultural standards trying to accomplish something. Personally as I grow older I lean far more toward integration than diversity, becuase I am starting to care about the future of the society I would raise my children in.

What do you think? [/b][/quote]
Ras my man. Shiet, I like your question.

This is what I am thinking. I think it important for minority groups to get acculturated into the important things in US society. Basically, stop living stupidly ghetto[Shiet, I know..I talk ghetto myself..LOL], trailer trash,... and learn how the government work, get an education, the law, their rights, English, etc. and not be out doing stupid sh$t. I am not saying that it's possible for everyone, but at least make a freak'n effort to improve your future generations instead of getting your family deeper into ghettoland.

I think one factor that is making the US non unified integrated country is not because of the many races here, but also because of the extremist of each kind of political and religious beliefs. I haven't dwell on it to say much, but when I do...

gangsta_T

08-03-2003, 04:38 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AzNBuffGrL @ Aug 2 2003, 11:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Unless it starts accepting cultural diversity, everyone who doesn't act "American" or doesn't give up a former cultural identity, it isn't going to be a pretty picture. [/b][/quote]
I just hope acting "American" isn't being a dumb, lazy, complacent fat ass who spends more time watching TV than doing social/community work. If that's is anAmerican, than this country must really have God's blessing ...

RasFarengi

08-03-2003, 08:19 AM

Coagulated Fat:

My belief about Hapas is different. I think that people having knowledge of the culture of their ancestors or their family members who immigrants here from another country is fine. I guess what I don’t like, and what I think is dangerous is people purposely segregating themselves by race and ethnicity and having such animosity toward the mainstream or just not wanting to be involved.

AzNBuffGrL:

What is wrong with integration. YOur parents camea to this country correct? Why is it you feel you need to carry on their culture in this country as if you were living in the birth country of your parents? What is wrong with America having “one culture.” You are Chinese right? China has many ethnic groups, but most live on “reservation” like areas, where they are pretty much segregated, but in thte past their were many more ethnicities in China, but they were mostly absorbed by the Han, till today you have a “Chinese culture…” a more unified culture. What is wrong with this for America, most countries do have a “unified” culture?

achtungbaby

08-03-2003, 09:38 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 2 2003, 05:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> What do you think? [/b][/quote]
Well, what would be the alternative to diversity?

achtungbaby

08-03-2003, 09:43 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (krome @ Aug 2 2003, 05:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Which is basically pop culture beamed into our heads thru MTV and the b00b tube. [/b][/quote]
Yes, those damn white washed Asians -- scurrying about, spreading their half-breed ideas and watered down culture. Why can't they invest half the effort that some whites do at learning the mother culture...?!?

RasFarengi

08-03-2003, 09:48 AM

achtungbaby:

Integration is the alternative. I think integration has become a dirty word, and people want diversity, but what kind of society is that? Is that a real society?

In the past many immigrants came here from other countries, mostly European but they intergrated into the Mainstream, part of it had to do with lack of communication with their homelands, and the fact they were mostly white...so overtime (usually after only a generation) they were Americanized. This does not happen anymore. Mainly due to better technology and easy cheap travel, people can keep those old cultural ties, somewhat, not enough to be fluent in their native culture, but enough for them to "feel different."

I think Alibaba is right when he talks about Asian Americans, but I also think this applies to other immigrant groups.

My father is an immigrant...from Nigeria, but I don't say I am Nigeria. My mother is America, and I was raised American. I can understand my father's native language, Hausa and Nigerian Creole, but I care barely speak either. I have no real intention of going to live in Nigeria, I am not a devout Muslim, actually neither is my father, although he does keep some Muslim traditions. I am pretty much an agnostic, although I have respect for some Muslim cultural ideas.

Basically I am American. I don't sit around saying that I need to be with Africans, (as if their is some panAfrican culture, because their is not, not even close), and I don't walk around speaking broken Hausa trying to front like I am Hausa, because I know when I go back to Nigeria I will feel like (and in reality will be ) a foreigner. I have a clan name and a tribe, but that is all, that is only a label it is not who I am. So why would I try to fight and struggle with the Mainstream in America to try and promote this fake Hausa Nigerian culture I have? If I want to be Hausa, then I should move to North Nigeria.

Since we all live in this country, and very few of us are going back to the country of our ancestors, why don't we work on trying to create a Pan-American culture and making inroads with the Mainstream and not try to hold on to something that we never really had (being born here) or something that we lost (after living here for years). Most Asian Americans I know act nothing like Asians in Asia. My wife just says, "Oh, they are American" meaning they don't act Asian. Still I see Asian Americans (and not just picking on you guys, but also other immigrants or children of immigrants) trying to cling to this psuedo-culture that is not really Asian, just so they can seperate themselves from Mainstream America, or so they can better deal with discrimination, but that to me is not the answer. Discrimination (as BetheRed) said does not create shared culture. It is almost like people have given up and said, "fuck it...screw integration, screw American culture and values, I am going to pretend as best I can that I still live in whatever country my parents came from, and take from America whatever I want..." That to me is dangerious.

achtungbaby

08-03-2003, 09:52 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 2 2003, 10:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> ...as long as we have minorities (who are ever increasing in number) calling for multiculturalism and diversity over integration America will be less and less stable, it will become a "cleft country" along racial and linguistic lines (rapid rise of hispanics in the Southwest, so fast that and in such high numbers they do not intergrate culturally)... [/b][/quote]
I think Arthur Schlesinger would agree with you. Damn the separatists who are tearing the fabric of this country apart, who want to divide up the notion of "American" into neat little ethnic enclaves. We could try and return things back to Arthur's hey-day, but I personally like the steps our country has taken to embrace diversity -- which, by the way, shouldn't be perceived as some friggen hand-holding exercise for every respective racial and ethnic group.

When people speak of diversity in America, what they're usually saying is, "Don't hate or discriminate on me."

achtungbaby

08-03-2003, 10:10 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 3 2003, 09:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>My father is an immigrant...from Nigeria, but I don't say I am Nigeria.  My mother is America, and I was raised American.  I can understand my father's native language, Hausa and Nigerian Creole, but I care barely speak either.  I have no real intention of going to live in Nigeria, I am not a devout Muslim, actually neither is my father, although he does keep some Muslim traditions.  I am pretty much an agnostic, although I have respect for some Muslim cultural ideas.[/b][/quote]

Right. My point is, when it comes to culture, none of us are perfect. At the end of the day, we do what we can. Blasting diversity because of the impurity of those who wish for it is as useless as hating on a religion because its adherents aren't sinless. It's one thing to sound the call for Asian Americans to wake up and get some sense of who they are; it's another thing entirely to use their inability to "keep it real" as a justification for dismantling ideas driving diversity.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 3 2003, 09:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So why would I try to fight and struggle with the Mainstream in America to try and promote this fake Hausa Nigerian culture I have?[/b][/quote]

If fighting for your heritage (or perceived heritage) is your thing, I say, more power to ya.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 3 2003, 09:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Since we all live in this country, and very few of us are going back to the country of our ancestors, why don't we work on trying to create a Pan-American culture and making inroads with the Mainstream and not try to hold on to something that we never really had (being born here) or something that we lost (after living here for years).[/b][/quote]

We are working on a Pan-American culture. That's why I refer to myself as an Asian American or Korean American rather than just Korean.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 3 2003, 09:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Most Asian Americans I know act nothing like Asians in Asia.  My wife just says, "Oh, they are American" meaning they don't act Asian.  Still I see Asian Americans (and not just picking on you guys, but also other immigrants or children of immigrants) trying to cling to this psuedo-culture that is not really Asian, just so they can seperate themselves from Mainstream America, or so they can better deal with discrimination, but that to me is not the answer.  Discrimination (as BetheRed) said does not create shared culture.[/b][/quote]

But, here is where your perceptions of Asians or Asian Americans -- as a non-Asian yourself -- becomes lacking. From an outsider's perspective, there will conceiveably be things to Asian or Asian American culture that you might not be able to fully comprehend, or appreciate. Perhaps you are presuming to understand too much about a group of people's experiences, or even one person's. One of my best friend's from college once used to tell me, "It's a Black thing. You wouldn't understand."

And that was not a bad thing.

RasFarengi

08-03-2003, 10:31 AM

achtungbaby:

I hear what you saying, but to me here is the test.

When I read this board, and more importantly my wife has looked at this board (she is Asian)...the views and attitudes here are not much different from another American minority group...sorry to say. I have heard many of these arguments before. In fact I have heard many of the exact same ones before...because they are typical of Americans. The only thing is you are typically applying American concepts to Asian American issues, but the ideas are not original or culturally alien.

If I took the same issues and put them on a Chinese FOB board, or Korean FOB board, or Indian FOB board well then you would see serious difference in attitudes, behaviors, etc. That is because the culture is truely different.

I don't believe people are fighting for "culture" or heritage...what they are fighting for is "race." That is what it always comes back to in this country; everything is "race..."

I believe that if their was no perceived racial discrimination in this country, their would be no movement for a Pan-Asian American identity, or so much talk about diversity. (like I said this does not just apply to Asians, but other groups as well).

What racial discrimination does is segregate people, it makes them defensive, xenophobic, etc. This is America. Their are racial heirchies and caste systems in this country, and I truly believe that because the society is structured this way it forces Asian Americans into a group, based along racial lines, but you can't just say..."we need to stick together because of our race" you have to have a reason, so you promote culture (one that is really not different but you amplify the differences between various Asian attitudes and habits and Mainstream America, and you try to get rid of or marginalize the differences between Asian ethnicities (some of which are huge).

"It's a Black thing. You wouldn't understand."

And that was not a bad thing.

That is a bad thing. It is a bad things, we can all call ourselves American, and claim to be the same nationality, and be loyal to the same ideals and the same flag but have such deep rooted ethnic differences that you can’t understand your countryman. I think that is a very sad commentary.

kimpossible

08-03-2003, 10:47 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 3 2003, 08:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Most Asian Americans I know act nothing like Asians in Asia. My wife just says, "Oh, they are American" meaning they don't act Asian. Still I see Asian Americans (and not just picking on you guys, but also other immigrants or children of immigrants) trying to cling to this psuedo-culture that is not really Asian, just so they can seperate themselves from Mainstream America, or so they can better deal with discrimination, but that to me is not the answer. [/b][/quote]
What you don't seem to realize is that many Asian Americans have learned to lead double lives. Many of our home lives are vastly different from our public ones. Not only do biracial Asian Americans have a flexible sense of identity split between ethnicity, culture and nationality, but so do full blooded Asians who have grown up American. Most likely the Americanized or American raised Asians you meet have enough social liquidity to adapt to the person they're interacting with. You're not Asian, in fact the only shared culture you would have with an Asian American is an American one, so the default cultural set there is American. You can't expect that an Asian American is going to 'act Asian' around you, and that is not a measure of how Asian or Americanized they are.

RasFarengi

08-03-2003, 10:54 AM

Hello_Hapa:

Please refer to this it is a quote from myself:

When I read this board, and more importantly my wife has looked at this board (she is Asian)...the views and attitudes here are not much different from another American minority group...sorry to say. I have heard many of these arguments before. In fact I have heard many of the exact same ones before...because they are typical of Americans. The only thing is you are typically applying American concepts to Asian American issues, but the ideas are not original or culturally alien.

If I took the same issues and put them on a Chinese FOB board, or Korean FOB board, or Indian FOB board well then you would see serious difference in attitudes, behaviors, etc. That is because the culture is truely different.

Okay, so taking what you said into accout, most people here are Asian or part Asian correct? So there would be no need for pretense right? My point being I still don't see a major difference in thought that would identify a noticible cultural difference.

Also, you are right I am not Asian...but hmm...so are you saying that when a Korean American meets a Filipino American they start acting "Asian?" Please discribe this process. How is it they related to each other in a different way than they would relate to me. Being that in the best case scenario (being they were first generation immigrants who still fully practices the culture of their ancestors) how would they communicate in an "Asian way"...they don't speak the same languages, probably don't havea the same religion, although they might both be Christian, probably not the same demomination...they don't eat the same food, so on and so forth...Now if you are talking about the "same nationality" two Korean American meet, yeah I can see that.

You two are also assuming that my only interractions with Asian Americans has been with Asian AMericans in some kind of one on one dynamic. I admit currently I don't have any Asian Americans friends, all my Asian friends are FOB or ex-pats. Mostly Japanese, Mainland Chinese, and Taiwanese.

Still I grew up with a lot of Asian Americans, mostly Filipinos, have been in situations where I was the only nonAsian, nonFilipino there. Language wasn't an issue, because very few of them could speak and understand fluent Tagalog...so they spoke in English. Are you saying that becasue i was black, they just started acting "stereotypically American" but when I left reverted to "Asian" culturally? I doubt this. I could see this if it was one Filipino guy and the rest a mix of black and white people. Maybe he would try to act "American..." but when you are the majority, the majority usually acts how they want. It is the minority that has to adjust.

Personally I think it is a lot harder to be bicultural than you say. I know, my father was born in Nigeria and has lived here about 30 years, and he is "Americanized..." but he definately is not American in culture and he can't just tern it on and off. Just as I can't just say, "oh I am with Nigerians, I will act Hausa.." Even if I try to speak Hausa, which is embarrising, I speak it like I speak English (not grammatically) but cultural, because I like the cultural understanding that would make me sound like a native speaker.

Hell there are many black Americans who can't just turn off their dialect and way of acting so easy, "at will..." it is who they are. Some can, I have met people who can act "stereotypically white" or "steroetypically black" at a moments notice depending on who they talk to...most can not, and that is just a subCulture. It's not that easy.

achtungbaby

08-03-2003, 06:17 PM

RasFarengi

08-03-2003, 06:25 PM

I think it should offend you.

First for someone to say "it's a black thing" is crap.

Most black folks I know who say things like that say it for two reasons:

1) They don't even know exactly why black people do something and don't want to try to explain what they don't really understand.

2) They honestly think that whatever it is is somehow cultural or genetic to black people and you could not possible understand it unless you are black, which I believe is racist.

I think if someone is open minded and empathetic you can understand another human being. You may not agree, but we are not aliens. If I can have friends from foreign countries with drastically different cultures and get along with them and understand them (doesn't mean I agree with everything they do culturally) than you as an Asian American can understand a black American, because trust me when I say (unless you are a FOB) you probably have more in common with that black American than you will any foreigner.

achtungbaby

08-03-2003, 06:41 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 3 2003, 10:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I hear what you saying, but to me here is the test.

When I read this board, and more importantly my wife has looked at this board  (she is Asian)...the views and attitudes here are not much different from  another American minority group...sorry to say.  I have heard many of these arguments before. In fact I have heard many of the exact same ones before...[/b][/quote]

Why would this offend me...?

By the same token, I'd be Bill Gates if I had a penny for every time a non-Asian visited the board with a desire to change the attitudes of those oh-so-many confused but well-intended Asians, clamoring about for that elusive cultural identity.

And why shouldn't some discussions between Asian Americans and other racial or ethnic minorities in America be somewhat similiar...? As I mentioned before, the idea of diversity, taken into an American context, is one with political roots. There are some similarities between the issues facing people of color in this country, namely, that today we have the luxury of having discussions on the need for diversity and what not, but that luxury was not won without a fight.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 3 2003, 10:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I don't believe people are fighting for "culture" or heritage...what they are fighting for is "race."  That is what it always comes back to in this country; everything is "race..."[/b][/quote]

You can simply cultural or ethnic empowerment to power terms if you want. Not everyone does. I certainly do. Does this mean I want Asians to kill off all non-Asians? Of course not, because being supportive of your own people does not have to come at the expense of shutting others out.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 3 2003, 10:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I believe that if their was no perceived racial discrimination in this country, their would be no movement for a Pan-Asian American identity, or so much talk about diversity. (like I said this does not just apply to Asians, but other groups as well).[/b][/quote]

Well those are nice ideas, for sure. Perhaps if none of us had no concept of evil, none of us would murder, cheat or steal either, but racial discrimination is a real thing. And more often than not, it's those in power who are often telling us to ignore it and play along.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 3 2003, 10:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>...but you can't just say..."we need to stick together because of our race" you have to have a reason, so you promote culture (one that is really not different but you amplify the differences between various Asian attitudes and habits and Mainstream America, and you try to get rid of or marginalize the differences between Asian ethnicities (some of which are huge).[/b][/quote]

Why not?:) What's to stop a truckload of Japanese senior citizens from building a coalition with Korean senior citizens to accomplish some goal -- what, because they are not exactly the same as one another, they should disregard the necessity of building coalitions?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 3 2003, 10:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>That is a bad thing. It is a bad things, we can all call ourselves American, and claim to be the same nationality, and be loyal to the same ideals and the same flag but have such deep rooted ethnic differences that you can’t understand your countryman.  I think that is a very sad commentary.[/b][/quote]

Hmmm, just to clarify, I don't think anyone is saying one person cannot ever understand another culture.

Isn't it also a sad commentary that as much as the American ideal is constantly pushed upon people of color, when push comes to shove, that's the very thing used against us?

achtungbaby

08-03-2003, 06:48 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 3 2003, 06:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If I can have friends from foreign countries with drastically different cultures and get along with them and understand them (doesn't mean I agree with everything they do culturally) than you as an Asian American can understand a black American, because trust me when I say (unless you are a FOB) you probably have more in common with that black American than you will any foreigner. [/b][/quote]
Let's simplify. I'm sure you might raise an eyebrow if I claimed to be "blacker" than you. Sure, ya never know, I might have immersed myself so deeply into Black culture that it might be true -- but probably not, just as I raise my eyebrows every time someone comes in here and claims to know everything about Asian culture based on their friends and movies they've watched and food eaten (and I don't mean you, btw).

What is the point? A recognition of one person's experiences, a respect for that person's experiences within their respective culture, and even a slight amount of humility in accepting that just because you can perceive what the soles of my shoes feel like, it doesn't mean you've walked in them.

RasFarengi

08-03-2003, 07:16 PM

achtungbaby:

To clarify something, I am not in any way attempting to change peoples opinions. I am just stating my own...and inquiring as to why people support certain attitudes for my own benefit, not for yours or anyone else. I also do not pretend to be an expert on anything...I call it like I see and inquire when curious. That's it.

Personally, I think when we buy into the concept of race as set up by the American racial caste system, those KKK in suits, that are making rules and laws that effect us all, win. By trying to form some pan-Asian culture based on race as the real factor...I think that is...well conforming to the negative in this society. If anything we need to be moving in the opposite direction.

That is just my opinion, we can agree to disagree. Stuff like this is the reason why I don't want to live in this country anymore, the older I get the less faith I have in Amerikkka. Nothing will ever change.

SunWuKong

08-03-2003, 07:46 PM

ras: you realise, a lot of immigrants come to this country but really don't give too much of a damn about this country, because they came here for money and better financial opportunities.

the irony of "freedom and liberty" in the US is that you're allowed to live in ethnic enclaves and not call yourself American while holding American citizenship. it's beautiful, isn't it?

as for American-born Asians. i see a discrepancy in what you're trying to say. yeah, they're pretty Americanised... and so doesn't that mean that they're already integrated??? so i don't understand what you're trying to say.

YuheiCarreau

08-03-2003, 08:01 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (achtungbaby @ Aug 3 2003, 09:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> By the same token, I'd be Bill Gates if I had a penny for every time a non-Asian visited the board with a desire to change the attitudes of those oh-so-many confused but well-intended Asians, clamoring about for that elusive cultural identity. [/b][/quote]
Don't lie. There's only like, 1300 people registered as YW members. You wouldn't be a billionaire, you'd be a thirteen dollar-aire.

achtungbaby

08-03-2003, 08:30 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 3 2003, 07:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Personally, I think when we buy into the concept of race as set up by the American racial caste system, those KKK in suits, that are making rules and laws that effect us all, win.

By trying to form some pan-Asian culture based on race as the real factor...I think that is...well conforming to the negative in this society. If anything we need to be moving in the opposite direction.

That is just my opinion, we can agree to disagree. Stuff like this is the reason why I don't want to live in this country anymore, the older I get the less faith I have in Amerikkka. Nothing will ever change. [/b][/quote]
That's cool. Most often when people can't really argue their position, they'll often say, "Let's agree to disagree.":)

I'm sorry to hear you've become so disillusioned to the evil intentions of racist ethnic and cultural groups. Coincidentally, I too have often become discouraged when I hear some talk about what's wrong with this country, but itsn't a tolerance of ideas what makes this country great?

achtungbaby

08-03-2003, 08:32 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (YuheiCarreau @ Aug 3 2003, 08:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Don't lie. There's only like, 1300 people registered as YW members. You wouldn't be a billionaire, you'd be a thirteen dollar-aire. [/b][/quote]
Still more money than I have now!

RasFarengi

08-03-2003, 08:47 PM

That's cool. Most often when people can't really argue their position, they'll often say, "Let's agree to disagree.":)

Some arguments are not worth the effort it takes to make them, has little to do with lacking the ability; it has more to do with lack of desire. :rolleyes: Don't think too much of yourself.

I'm sorry to hear you've become so disillusioned to the evil intentions of racist ethnic and cultural groups. Coincidentally, I too have often become discouraged when I hear some talk about what's wrong with this country, but isn’t a tolerance of ideas what makes this country great?

Please don't put words in my mouth..."evil" is not even close to how I would describe the situation. I don't really believe in the concept of "evil..." to be honest. No need for melodrama.

...Also, Tolerance is a very subjective thing, in some ways America is very intolerant, and I wouldn’t describe this country as “great…” maybe one time I did, but I know better now. Economically, Politically, and Militarily dominant…yeah…I can go for that, but there is more to life than that.

SunWuKong

08-03-2003, 09:14 PM

i still don't understand... if American-born Asians are Americanised... doesn't that mean they're integrated already? so what's the problem??? :confused:

RasFarengi

08-03-2003, 09:37 PM

SunWu:

Actually I didn't intend this post to be about Asian Americans, I used them as an example but I was talking about other immigrant groups as well...like Latinos, Africans, as I mentioned early.

Americanized does not equal integrated into the Mainstream.

There are plenty of African Americans who are obviously Americanized, because they had no choice, some may argue they have a "subculture" which may or may not be true...there is some argument about this, but if you do believe that black Americans have a subculture, than I can say that a large majority are still not integrated into the Mainstream.

Likewise you can be an Americanized Asian, who doesn't really practice a pure Asian culture, and has some hybrid subculture, lives pretty much in a ethnic ghetto practicing this pseudo-culture, and that doesn't mean you live in "mainstream America..."

Also you said:

the irony of "freedom and liberty" in the US is that you're allowed to live in ethnic enclaves and not call yourself American while holding American citizenship. it's beautiful, isn't it?

Yes this is true today, but I don't believe this was always the case in America, this is recent, very recent, probably sense the late 1970's when integration stopped being stressed over diversity and multiculturalism.

So integration and Americanized is two different things.

SunWuKong

08-03-2003, 09:58 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 4 2003, 12:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> SunWu:

Actually I didn't intend this post to be about Asian Americans, I used them as an example but I was talking about other immigrant groups as well...like Latinos, Africans, as I mentioned early.

Americanized does not equal integrated into the Mainstream.

There are plenty of African Americans who are obviously Americanized, because they had no choice, some may argue they have a "subculture" which may or may not be true...there is some argument about this, but if you do believe that black Americans have a subculture, than I can say that a large majority are still not integrated into the Mainstream.

Likewise you can be an Americanized Asian, who doesn't really practice a pure Asian culture, and has some hybrid subculture, lives pretty much in a ethnic ghetto practicing this pseudo-culture, and that doesn't mean you live in "mainstream America..."

Also you said:

the irony of "freedom and liberty" in the US is that you're allowed to live in ethnic enclaves and not call yourself American while holding American citizenship. it's beautiful, isn't it?

Yes this is true today, but I don't believe this was always the case in America, this is recent, very recent, probably sense the late 1970's when integration stopped being stressed over diversity and multiculturalism.

So integration and Americanized is two different things. [/b][/quote]
i still don't understand. you said so yourself: American-born Asians think and act like Americans. they speak English. they eat American food. they consume American media. but they're... not integrated? :confused:

can you explain why you think American-born Asians are not integrated but Americanised?

(by the way, i think that black people are very integrated. the only people who i think are not integrated are immigrants who refuse to leave their ethnic enclaves.)

RasFarengi

08-03-2003, 10:11 PM

i still don't understand. you said so yourself: American-born Asians think and act like Americans. they speak English. they eat American food. they consume American media. but they're... not integrated?

NO I DID NOT SAY THAT.

That is way out of context to what I said.

Please reread the post.

The original topic of the post was integration v diversity.

I never said most Asians Americans or all Asian Americans were not integrated.

The original intention of the post degraded from there into a discussion about whether a Pan-Asian American movement largely based on "race" aids integration. They are related topics but not really the same.

SunWuKong

08-03-2003, 10:36 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 4 2003, 01:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I never said most Asians Americans or all Asian Americans were not integrated. [/b][/quote]
ok, but do you think that most Asian Americans or all Asian Americans are in fact integrated?

let's take this paragraph you wrote:

Since we all live in this country, and very few of us are going back to the country of our ancestors, why don't we work on trying to create a Pan-American culture and making inroads with the Mainstream and not try to hold on to something that we never really had (being born here) or something that we lost (after living here for years).  Most Asian Americans I know act nothing like Asians in Asia.  My wife just says, "Oh, they are American" meaning they don't act Asian.  Still I see Asian Americans (and not just picking on you guys, but also other immigrants or children of immigrants) trying to cling to this psuedo-culture that is not really Asian, just so they can seperate themselves from Mainstream America, or so they can better deal with discrimination, but that to me is not the answer.  Discrimination (as BetheRed) said does not create shared culture.  It is almost like people have given up and said, "fuck it...screw integration, screw American culture and values, I am going to pretend as best I can that I still live in whatever country my parents came from, and take from America whatever I want..."  That to me is dangerious.

how many American-born Asians do you know refuse to be identified as American? and if your wife says that "Oh, they are American", doesn't that mean that she thinks they're integrated into American culture?

coagulated fat

08-03-2003, 10:37 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 3 2003, 07:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Coagulated Fat:

My belief about Hapas is different. I think that people having knowledge of the culture of their ancestors or their family members who immigrants here from another country is fine. I guess what I don’t like, and what I think is dangerous is people purposely segregating themselves by race and ethnicity and having such animosity toward the mainstream or just not wanting to be involved. [/b][/quote]
That makes sense... so you think that knowledge of the culture and practice of the culture are the same thing, or what? I don't remember all of what you said in the post I was referring to. It's possible that you were just talking about Hapas who don't know anything about their heritage as opposed to those who just choose not to incorporate it as a major part of their identity.

I agree that it's dangerous when one culture separates itself so much from whatever the "mainstream" is supposed to be. Interesting stuff since from where I'm standing much of yw seems to be like what you mentioned -- "people purposely segregating themselves by race and ethnicity and having such animosity toward the mainstream or just not wanting to be involved."

ChairmanMah

08-03-2003, 10:53 PM

it's the land of the free isn't it? Free to be separate and free to discriminate unfortunately.

i think that integration will be inevitable whether the person in question likes it or not unless they go out of their way to avoid americans and stay segregated in their cultures. It is whether diversity is fully accepted or not by the rest which is the problem.

Obviously some will choose to associate with only their people but others should respect that. People should respect that someone who doesn't speak English or are unfamiliar with American culture are obviously going to speak their native language and communicate with their people.

In a perfect world everyone would automatically integrate into America, but usually it happens in a generation or two, but we all know that there is a large majority that can't and won't stand for differences. These are the cause of racism and discrimination. These people are the reason that these diseases of society won't go away because they keep feeding it.

It's a question of racial tolerance really. If only people would just mind their own business and deal with it instead of lay blame to others for their own problems. It is the racist idiots that feel they have to blame minorities for everything. The main problem minorities have with whites is their lack of tolerance. Take that away and damn, their would be a lot less problems.

The problem is, there are a lot of uneducated, ignorant Americans that's all. They are stuck in their ways and will never learn. :(

RasFarengi

08-03-2003, 10:56 PM

SunWu:

I think that most Asian Americans that are born in the US are Americanized, integrated...as I said this is another issue.

I do believe that Asian Americans on average are more integrated into mainstream America than black Americans or Latin American. I know you don't agree with this, you are entitled to your opinion. Most African Americans do not call themselves African, or West African, but that doesn't mean they are actually integrated. In fact that very existence of such a strong African American subculture in America after we have been here 500 years, says a lot about how unintegrated we are.

Most Asian Americans that I have seen that are born in this country and do not live in an area where they can surround themselves in an Asian ethnic ghetto tend to be very integrated. I am not sure what percentage of "Asian America" that is, but I am not talking about those people.

You're Chinese...want an example of integration...look at the Manchu (Manzu) in China. That's integration...their are probably more ethnicities that are Sinosized, but not really integrated to the extint of the Manzu.

coagulated fat:

I think you got it. :D

golden_buns

08-03-2003, 11:04 PM

Most Asian Americans I know act nothing like Asians in Asia.  My wife just says, "Oh, they are American" meaning they don't act Asian.  Still I see Asian Americans (and not just picking on you guys, but also other immigrants or children of immigrants) trying to cling to this psuedo-culture that is not really Asian, just so they can seperate themselves from Mainstream America, or so they can better deal with discrimination, but that to me is not the answer.  Discrimination (as BetheRed) said does not create shared culture.  It is almost like people have given up and said, "fuck it...screw integration, screw American culture and values, I am going to pretend as best I can that I still live in whatever country my parents came from, and take from America whatever I want..."  That to me is dangerious.

what???

didn't you mention in some other place that you only knew FOBs and didn't hang out with asian americans? So How do you know that we're so americanized and that we're holding into a pseudo-culture. As far as I know most asian americans I know speak their native language at home, eat asian food at home, practice native family values.
And what is this thing about acting asian? That means that I should expect a non-asian guy younger than me in the US to call me hyung, or a younger girl to call me oppah.
We act non-asian in mainstream america cus if we did nobody would get along with us.

achtungbaby

08-03-2003, 11:15 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 3 2003, 08:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Some arguments are not worth the effort it takes to make them, has little to do with lacking the ability; it has more to do with lack of desire.[/b][/quote]

No offense, but based on your arguments presented so far, I will assume you cannot. But if I'm wrong, you have every opportunity to prove me wrong.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 3 2003, 08:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Please don't put words in my mouth..."evil" is not even close to how I would describe the situation.  I don't really believe in the concept of "evil..." to be honest. No need for melodrama.[/b][/quote]

You've insinuated that it's because of racial/ethnic groups that you prefer to live outside of the United States -- fine, that may not be evil, but you're hardly chill about the situation.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 3 2003, 08:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>... but there is more to life than that.[/b][/quote]

I disagree. I believe in lots of money and big, big bombs:)

Fireblade

08-03-2003, 11:17 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (golden_buns @ Aug 3 2003, 11:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
what???

didn't you mention in some other place that you only knew FOBs and didn't hang out with asian americans? So How do you know that we're so americanized and that we're holding into a pseudo-culture. As far as I know most asian americans I know speak their native language at home, eat asian food at home, practice native family values.
And what is this thing about acting asian? That means that I should expect a non-asian guy younger than me in the US to call me hyung, or a younger girl to call me oppah.
We act non-asian in mainstream america cus if we did nobody would get along with us. [/b][/quote]
I agree with Golden Buns. Isn't this also a sterotyping of Asian Americans. What is acting Asian? Everyone may have similarities in culture, but the way we act is totally different. You can't just place a finger on someone and assume they act this way or what-not.

If I'm wrong, please inform me as to why.

People act the way they do to their own accord. I speak chinese to my parents. I eat with chopsticks. I share their love of cultural chinese holidays like chinese new year. But then again I don't speak English with a fobby accent, and I was born here. I mean... what-the-hell? Why must I appeal to everyone and choose to be either a culturally knowledge chinese individual, or a citizen of America?

I don't. I'm just someone who's Chinese and is also American.

But there is a clear distinction that I won't be accepted to either sides completely. But those who are raised similarly can identify and share some of the views I express. Otherwise I'd just be another ignorant individual.

So actually, I believe there should be a certain level of integration and diversity, but you can't have it one way. I know I wouldn't want to choose a side.

achtungbaby

08-03-2003, 11:24 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (coagulated fat @ Aug 3 2003, 10:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Interesting stuff since from where I'm standing much of yw seems to be like what you mentioned -- "people purposely segregating themselves by race and ethnicity and having such animosity toward the mainstream or just not wanting to be involved." [/b][/quote]
Really? Since when did I suddenly become David Koresh, asking for Asians to head for the hills?

If we're purposely segregating ourselves, how is it that someone like RasFarengi or anyone else non-Asian can even participate in this radically separatist Asian discussion?:)

achtungbaby

08-03-2003, 11:28 PM

Moving to the Rant Room...

SunWuKong

08-03-2003, 11:39 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 4 2003, 01:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> SunWu:

I think that most Asian Americans that are born in the US are Americanized, integrated...as I said this is another issue.

I do believe that Asian Americans on average are more integrated into mainstream America than black Americans or Latin American. I know you don't agree with this, you are entitled to your opinion. Most African Americans do not call themselves African, or West African, but that doesn't mean they are actually integrated. In fact that very existence of such a strong African American subculture in America after we have been here 500 years, says a lot about how unintegrated we are.

Most Asian Americans that I have seen that are born in this country and do not live in an area where they can surround themselves in an Asian ethnic ghetto tend to be very integrated. I am not sure what percentage of "Asian America" that is, but I am not talking about those people.

You're Chinese...want an example of integration...look at the Manchu (Manzu) in China. That's integration...their are probably more ethnicities that are Sinosized, but not really integrated to the extint of the Manzu. [/b][/quote]
oh so American-born Asians are integrated. and integrated people aren't "dangerous" for this country, according to you.

got it.

so then are we talking about whether or not other(not Asian) minorities are "dangerous" for this country because they're not integrated?

wait... so explain to me what the difference is between Americanised and integrated... i still don't understand.

what do black people do that isn't so mainstream that they're considered unintegrated, and what do American-born Asians do that is so mainstream that they're considered integrated?

nonamerasian

08-03-2003, 11:47 PM

Was the U.S. ever as integrated as some imply?

I don’t know.

Like the product of many new immigrants, I am a hybrid.

I have a hybrid cultural identity brought about by a hybrid cultural influence.

These are the characteristics of this integrated American.

I may not be an example of a standardized, homogenized American (I’m not even sure of what one is), but I do consider myself as an example of an integrated American.

As it’s possible to have the flavor of cucumber and remain a part of the salad, it’s possible to have the flavor of a minority group and remain a part of the American identity.

AngryABCGirl

08-04-2003, 12:27 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 3 2003, 07:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> AzNBuffGrL:

What is wrong with integration. YOur parents camea to this country correct? Why is it you feel you need to carry on their culture in this country as if you were living in the birth country of your parents? What is wrong with America having “one culture.” You are Chinese right? China has many ethnic groups, but most live on “reservation” like areas, where they are pretty much segregated, but in thte past their were many more ethnicities in China, but they were mostly absorbed by the Han, till today you have a “Chinese culture…” a more unified culture. What is wrong with this for America, most countries do have a “unified” culture? [/b][/quote]
I really don't care for America to have a unified culture, infact I like America for all its cultural differences and lifestyle and of course it's great universities and money-making opportunies, though perhaps the latter is dwindling.

I also don't feel a need to carry on my parent's culture... I was brought up, raised in the school of thought of my parent's culture. I lived in an ethnic enclaves of Taiwanese and other Chinese people all my life. And personally, I like the values and lifestyle of the culture I was brought up in versus traditional "American lifestyles." It's not a questoin of me intentionally carrying on, for many Asians, it's a way of life. Also many of us lead double-lives because most of us learn American doesn't quite like "all that oriental" stuff. But I'm free not to either and I'm free to be the Chinese I want to be here, that's the beauty of America.

My parents didn't come here wanting to be American, infact they would give less crap about anything American, they wanted to escape the discrimination they had faced in Taiwan being wai sen ren and wanted the better economic oppurtunities here, pure and simple. So they never saw it fit to raise me "American."

SunWuKong

08-04-2003, 12:39 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AzNBuffGrL @ Aug 4 2003, 03:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> My parents didn't come here wanting to be American, infact they would give less crap about anything American, they wanted to escape the discrimination they had faced in Taiwan being wai sen ren and wanted the better economic oppurtunities here, pure and simple. So they never saw it fit to raise me "American." [/b][/quote]
amen.

$$$ - that's why i'm in the US right now.

achtungbaby

08-04-2003, 02:15 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Aug 4 2003, 12:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> $$$ - that's why i'm in the US right now. [/b][/quote]
American culture and tradition is rooted in da benjamins...

RasFarengi

08-04-2003, 07:01 AM

achtungbaby:

Listen no disrespect intended, we all have our sensitive issues, lord knows I have mine, I guess this is one of yours, but resorting to insults is somewhat childish, and you keep taking things way out of context. I don’t know what you learned about debate, but this is not what I learned in Public Speaking 101, like 5 or 6 years ago. Hey it is your site though, your prerogative, but I won’t indulge you. You can feel free to think whatever you want about me…like I said I am not here to impress you or prove anything to you or anyone else. When you "went there" you effectily stopped our discussion.

Sunwu: I don’t want to discuss your questions here because it is off topic, if you want to discuss that, I will PM you, and if I can’t answer your question I will refer you to sources that will.

Everyone else:

Let’s try this again, this probably my fault because I allowed things to go way off the initial topic of the post.

The initial topic was “Diversity Vs Integration…” Here is my basic view on things.

In the past, for most of America’s history, America stressed integration and not diversity. Integration was typically reserved for white foreigners from Europe. They faced discrimination and were not often considered “white,” but to varying degrees they were allowed to integrate into mainstream white America overtime. I think that for the already present WASP American the new white immigrants were easier to accept compared to people who looked obviously different. I also think that due to technology it was easier for Europeans immigrants at the time to lose contact with their homeland. It was not cheap or quick to travel back and forth to Europe on a boat, and telecommunication was in its infancy, you could not easily make a telephone call to or watch a movie from the Mother/Fatherland. They were pretty much isolated accept for recent immigrants. Often their names were changed, they were upwardly mobile, the children didn’t have accents, and were pretty much “white” like everyone else. Especially after WWII, old ethnic discriminations between various groups of whites in most parts of the country (with the exception of some enclave areas, such as in New York or Boston) pretty much disappeared, or ceased to be a real issue. The main exception I can still think of is Jews.

Fastforward to 2003…I have read on this issue, and I have lived in a few states, but never witness this till I came to Houston, TX. Since living here I have met many Mexicans Americans, not Mexican nationals, who are born here, and have an accent, and do not speak English properly, and to me they do not seem mainstream. Now I have identified some reasons for this.

Unlike Europeans immigrants from an earlier time, Mexicans here live in very huge communities of people of their ethnicity, they have newspapers in Spanish, street signs, plenty of stores with products from Mexico, and Spanish speaking employees, they even have bilingual schools. There is also real discrimination, especially toward the Mexicans who look far more Mestizo or Amerid than Caucasian. The biggest thing is, so many Mexicans immigrate here legally and illegally in such large numbers that it gives little time for integration, which doesn’t happen overnight anyway. What I can see in the future if this trend continues is a extension of Latin America from the tip of Chile all the way to the South West of the United States. That is not good, that will create a cleft country. A country where a huge amount of the population feels little cultural alliance with the Mainstream. Best-case scenario is that we will have something like Quebec, but over a much larger territory, especially with the rate of migration and the rate of childbirth of Mexicans and other Latino that come here, many of the Southwestern states will be majority Latino in my lifetime. Somehow being that Americans on average are much more violent than Canadians I don’t think it will be so peaceful.

American future racial dynamic

I also think that as time goes by and white Americans continue to drop in population, they will continue to dominate America economically, but politically they will continue to lose power. As this happens I think that racial issues in the US will get worse, hate crimes will increase. My belief is that when a country has clear racial/ethnic/or religious majority, and populations of the existing “groups” move toward equality that country will become unstable. The reason is simple. No one wants to share power. I cannot think of a time in history where one group in power just handed over power willingly to another and gave them a fair seat at the table. It does not happen, not typically anyway. The only way power seems to be shared is when one group is in power and comfortable enough in their power to allot it out (America today), or there is strong intermarriage and integration so people mix in with the Mainstream, so that overtime, which is less threatening to the dominant group. For the minority that integrates this means accepting the dominant culture of the Mainstream.

The only society I think that has been different, that has not had ethnic fighting and oppression or even genocide is Switzerland. Switzerland history is very unique and the various language and religious groups live segregated into different areas (Cantons) so their interaction is very limited, even today intermarriage between various groups in Switzerland is rare. Most countries have not faired as well.

My contact with Asian Americans

With some Asian Americans I have seen the same trend as I have with Mexicans, but due to a much smaller population size, from what I have seen it depends a lot on where the people live and what generation they are. Also an important fact seems to be income level. If they are not recent immigrants, and they have live in an area that doesn’t have a significant population of their ethnic group, they are force to integrate faster into mainstream America, because they will probably be surrounded by a lot of white people. Most of the Asian Americans I have known in my life were when I was in Junior High-Undergrad and they were mostly Filipino. I had some good friends who were Filipino and they were very integrated and Americanized. Most of my friends were second generation or 1.5. They typically could understand Tagalong or some dialect, but did not speak it when they were at home, or they did not speak fluently (basically they would here their parents speak in their language and they would answer them in English or a mix)..and they did pretty much spoke to their other Filipino friends in English, sometimes mixing Tagalog or at least curses. That’s about it. Other than food, language, and how close the families were, the respect for the parents, I didn’t notice a huge difference between my family and theirs. At that time I lived with my dad, who is Nigerian (mom and dad were divorced a long time ago) so I had similar things going on with unusual food and language at my house, and yeah I don’t speak to my father either, but he speaks it/Nigerian Creole to me. Same situation I guess as my Asian American friends. I grew up with my mother (who is black American) half my life, and didn’t see my father much, so I do not consider myself Nigerian American…I have Nigerian Hausa cultural ideas, but few, I act pretty American.

Anyway I have met Asian Americans since moving to Houston who are not so integrated, but they are usually 1st generation or even 2nd generation and poor, they live in neighborhoods with others of their ethnicity too, this is similar to the Latino thing mentioned early, but due to the fact that most Asian Americans live at a higher income level I think this is not as big an issue.

Why

Well I think that some of this is human nature, as it occurs in all countries, but how we group ourselves n America is not typical of all countries. Ethnicity in America is not nearly as important as race, some downplay social class to (because classism is thought to be un-American, but it exists).

I feel very lucky in the fact that I was able to live in two different countries extremely different culturally from America, and interact with students and ex-pat workers from various nationalities. I learned through this contact that there was another way to live. I knew this already, from growing up with friends who had immigrant parents, and even my own father, but it never really hit me, as I always led my life in an American context, and others around me were pretty much doing the same to varying extents. After coming back to America I think I saw things, as the Chinese say, ”Ming Bai” (clear white) This country is very racist. Ideas of race are so deeply rooted in the fabric of the national culture that most people don’t even notice it. I really didn’t till I came back and get reexposed to American Brainwashing (AKA media). Ethnic groups that come to this country are forced into a position to group themselves around a established racial group, because this country has a definite racial hierarchy, and a loosely enforced unspoken caste system. We are all expected to conform to this system in one way or another, because those at the top of it (white WASPS) benefit from it, and this is how they hold their power. It is not a conspiracy theory because I don’t think there is a board of rich and all powerful white man that hand down “rules of racial conformity” most of it is automatically set in place and reinforced by all of us, everyday. To me this is very sad, and as an African American, it is probably a more serious problem to me than it is to most of you, because my people are at the bottom of this system, and have been since the conception…because that was why it was initially formed, it just got a hell of a lot more complicated as different ethnicities came here that could not be classified as traditionally
”white or black.” I will not go into that, because it is very complex and it takes away from the topic, so if someone wants to discuss that we can start a new topic or you can PM me.

Integration

I think the focus should be more on integration because I do not believe a cleft country based on various enclaves will result in a stable country. If anything we need more national unity as the racial dynamic in this country shifts away from white American political dominence (due to decreasing population). More fragmentation is not good. Main problem with integration is...who much can minorities integrate into the Mainstream? It is not just a question of want? How much are visible minorities allowed to integrate. I think Asians are probably better off than most other racial groups in this reguard...so once again maybe this is not such a big issue for you guys.

It doesn't matter anyway, to me in reality, it is a good topic of conversation, but after grad school I am leaving this country. I do not want to raise my children here for various reasons, one of the main reasons is that I believe America makes minorities, especially black or part black people hate themselves, self hatred is rampant in minority groups who are very Americanized, especially in blacks, and I don't want my children to grow up to with a "nigger mentality" for me I can take drop income for a better way of life, because I think that results in a higher standard of living. I think due to media propoganda and influence from others that will serve as a reinforcement of stereotypes in the media it would be very harmful to the development of a black child. That is what my wife and I believe anyway...we are not about da deadprez.....we are about a comfortable living and a quiet peaceful way of life and being able to work in the fields that we love.

Also like Alibab, I don't have much faith in America's economic future, and I haven't for many years...this standard of living we have can not be maintained indefinately, it will end, sooner than many of you think.

Lastely, American society has lost so much of its social values, today everyones attitude tends to be "its all good all the time" and it gets worse every generation, children have little respect, violent crime is just ridiculous, the culture is increasing in violence, and people become more self centered as time goes on...I think the society will implode from within (like Rome) before it succumbs to outside attack.

Oh well...I won't be here, i will watch it on CNN by satellite from somewhere else...2 more years... :D
Anyway I am rushing to type this long as thread as usual…later

SunWuKong

08-04-2003, 08:54 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The only way power seems to be shared is when one group is in power and comfortable enough in their power to allot it out (America today), or there is strong intermarriage and integration so people mix in with the Mainstream, so that overtime, which is less threatening to the dominant group.[/b][/quote]

so... we should progressively marry out of our own races and progressively make an effort to ignore our ethnic heritage, in order that white people will feel like we're one of them?

uh... no thanks.

by the way, is this basically a post promoting interracial relationships? :lol:

in case you didn't already know, according to the things that mixed members of YW have posted in the hapa forum, mixed children don't necessarily feel accepted by whites. a lot of times they're discriminated against by whites and whatever non-white mix they are of. or if both of their parents are not white, the discrimination they receive could be even worse.

or maybe you're talking about how people in interracial marriages themselves would be accepted by whites? i don't think i have to tell you that this is also not necessarily something very accepted by whites.

as for integration - and i'm still not sure what your definition of this is - i don't think it is possible to integrate into the mainstream without losing your ethnic heritage. in other words, if i'm eating a burger, then i'm not eating a cha shao bao. i don't not hang out with white people because they're white. i just prefer to hang out with Chinese people and do things like eating dimsum, playing mahjong, and speaking Chinese while i do these things (like i did yesterday). it's not that i don't think white people are incapable of eating dimsum, or playing mahjong, or speaking Chinese. if i can find some white people that can do this, i'd prefer to hang out with them and do these things with them just as much as i'd prefer to with Chinese people. does this make me "divisive" or "dangerous" to this country? i don't think so. because here i am today at work, speaking English, working alongside white people, and i'd probably be eating Western food for lunch. fortunately for most Asian people in the US, unlike Nigerians, we have easy access to people, food, cultural materials, etc etc, of our own ethnicity in most big cities in the US. i think this is a wonderful thing. and with the advent of mass communication in East Asia as well as in the US, we also have easy communication with East Asian countries as well.

so you've said that this "integration" thing is maybe not such a big problem amongst Asian Americans. perhaps you just have a problem with Hispanic Americans not knowing how to speak English and socialising only with other Hispanic Americans? and you think that they're "dangerous" for this country?

i think it is entirely possible to teach tolerance and acceptance to people even if they are seperated amongst racial and ethnic lines. it's not our differences that cause tension, it's our lack of respect for other people. and i don't believe there is a "definite racial hierarchy" in American society that all racial groups must stick to, and that it is up to white people to allot power to minorities. to have this attitude is what i'd call a "victim mentality". i am not saying that there aren't certain racially discriminatory practices that are unspokenly institutionalised, but here is where i'd say that the term "minority" is too much of an umbrella term and it marginalises Asian Americans, including us when it's convenient, in order to have a numerical advantage. i am not black, and maybe this problem of "definite racial hierarchy" applies more to blacks, but i don't think it applies all that much to Asians. there is a glass ceiling for us in reaching executive positions in the corporate world, but even the fobby amongst us is not so discriminated against that we cannot get middle class blue-collar jobs because of discrimination.

or maybe you can explain more about this "definite racial hierarchy" to us, and give us some examples of how this applies to us in everyday life. maybe i just don't understand what you mean.

achtungbaby

08-04-2003, 10:19 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 4 2003, 07:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Listen no disrespect intended, we all have our sensitive issues, lord knows I have mine, I guess this is one of yours, but resorting to insults is somewhat childish, and you keep taking things way out of context.

I don’t know what you learned about debate, but this is not what I learned in Public Speaking 101, like 5 or 6 years ago. Hey it is your site though, your prerogative, but I won’t indulge you. You can feel free to think whatever you want about me…like I said I am not here to impress you or prove anything to you or anyone else. When you "went there" you effectily stopped our discussion.

Sunwu: I don’t want to discuss your questions here because it is off topic, if you want to discuss that, I will PM you, and if I can’t answer your question I will refer you to sources that will.

Everyone else:

Let’s try this again, this probably my fault because I allowed things to go way off the initial topic of the post.

The initial topic was “Diversity Vs Integration…” Here is my basic view on things.

In the past, for most of America’s history, America stressed integration and not diversity. Integration was typically reserved for white foreigners from Europe. They faced discrimination and were not often considered “white,” but to varying degrees they were allowed to integrate into mainstream white America overtime. I think that for the already present WASP American the new white immigrants were easier to accept compared to people who looked obviously different. I also think that due to technology it was easier for Europeans immigrants at the time to lose contact with their homeland. It was not cheap or quick to travel back and forth to Europe on a boat, and telecommunication was in its infancy, you could not easily make a telephone call to or watch a movie from the Mother/Fatherland. They were pretty much isolated accept for recent immigrants. Often their names were changed, they were upwardly mobile, the children didn’t have accents, and were pretty much “white” like everyone else. Especially after WWII, old ethnic discriminations between various groups of whites in most parts of the country (with the exception of some enclave areas, such as in New York or Boston) pretty much disappeared, or ceased to be a real issue. The main exception I can still think of is Jews.

Fastforward to 2003…I have read on this issue, and I have lived in a few states, but never witness this till I came to Houston, TX. Since living here I have met many Mexicans Americans, not Mexican nationals, who are born here, and have an accent, and do not speak English properly, and to me they do not seem mainstream. Now I have identified some reasons for this.

Unlike Europeans immigrants from an earlier time, Mexicans here live in very huge communities of people of their ethnicity, they have newspapers in Spanish, street signs, plenty of stores with products from Mexico, and Spanish speaking employees, they even have bilingual schools. There is also real discrimination, especially toward the Mexicans who look far more Mestizo or Amerid than Caucasian. The biggest thing is, so many Mexicans immigrate here legally and illegally in such large numbers that it gives little time for integration, which doesn’t happen overnight anyway. What I can see in the future if this trend continues is a extension of Latin America from the tip of Chile all the way to the South West of the United States. That is not good, that will create a cleft country. A country where a huge amount of the population feels little cultural alliance with the Mainstream. Best-case scenario is that we will have something like Quebec, but over a much larger territory, especially with the rate of migration and the rate of childbirth of Mexicans and other Latino that come here, many of the Southwestern states will be majority Latino in my lifetime. Somehow being that Americans on average are much more violent than Canadians I don’t think it will be so peaceful.

American future racial dynamic

I also think that as time goes by and white Americans continue to drop in population, they will continue to dominate America economically, but politically they will continue to lose power. As this happens I think that racial issues in the US will get worse, hate crimes will increase. My belief is that when a country has clear racial/ethnic/or religious majority, and populations of the existing “groups” move toward equality that country will become unstable. The reason is simple. No one wants to share power. I cannot think of a time in history where one group in power just handed over power willingly to another and gave them a fair seat at the table. It does not happen, not typically anyway. The only way power seems to be shared is when one group is in power and comfortable enough in their power to allot it out (America today), or there is strong intermarriage and integration so people mix in with the Mainstream, so that overtime, which is less threatening to the dominant group. For the minority that integrates this means accepting the dominant culture of the Mainstream.

The only society I think that has been different, that has not had ethnic fighting and oppression or even genocide is Switzerland. Switzerland history is very unique and the various language and religious groups live segregated into different areas (Cantons) so their interaction is very limited, even today intermarriage between various groups in Switzerland is rare. Most countries have not faired as well.

My contact with Asian Americans

With some Asian Americans I have seen the same trend as I have with Mexicans, but due to a much smaller population size, from what I have seen it depends a lot on where the people live and what generation they are. Also an important fact seems to be income level. If they are not recent immigrants, and they have live in an area that doesn’t have a significant population of their ethnic group, they are force to integrate faster into mainstream America, because they will probably be surrounded by a lot of white people. Most of the Asian Americans I have known in my life were when I was in Junior High-Undergrad and they were mostly Filipino. I had some good friends who were Filipino and they were very integrated and Americanized. Most of my friends were second generation or 1.5. They typically could understand Tagalong or some dialect, but did not speak it when they were at home, or they did not speak fluently (basically they would here their parents speak in their language and they would answer them in English or a mix)..and they did pretty much spoke to their other Filipino friends in English, sometimes mixing Tagalog or at least curses. That’s about it. Other than food, language, and how close the families were, the respect for the parents, I didn’t notice a huge difference between my family and theirs. At that time I lived with my dad, who is Nigerian (mom and dad were divorced a long time ago) so I had similar things going on with unusual food and language at my house, and yeah I don’t speak to my father either, but he speaks it/Nigerian Creole to me. Same situation I guess as my Asian American friends. I grew up with my mother (who is black American) half my life, and didn’t see my father much, so I do not consider myself Nigerian American…I have Nigerian Hausa cultural ideas, but few, I act pretty American.

Anyway I have met Asian Americans since moving to Houston who are not so integrated, but they are usually 1st generation or even 2nd generation and poor, they live in neighborhoods with others of their ethnicity too, this is similar to the Latino thing mentioned early, but due to the fact that most Asian Americans live at a higher income level I think this is not as big an issue.

Why

Well I think that some of this is human nature, as it occurs in all countries, but how we group ourselves n America is not typical of all countries. Ethnicity in America is not nearly as important as race, some downplay social class to (because classism is thought to be un-American, but it exists).

I feel very lucky in the fact that I was able to live in two different countries extremely different culturally from America, and interact with students and ex-pat workers from various nationalities. I learned through this contact that there was another way to live. I knew this already, from growing up with friends who had immigrant parents, and even my own father, but it never really hit me, as I always led my life in an American context, and others around me were pretty much doing the same to varying extents. After coming back to America I think I saw things, as the Chinese say, ”Ming Bai” (clear white) This country is very racist. Ideas of race are so deeply rooted in the fabric of the national culture that most people don’t even notice it. I really didn’t till I came back and get reexposed to American Brainwashing (AKA media). Ethnic groups that come to this country are forced into a position to group themselves around a established racial group, because this country has a definite racial hierarchy, and a loosely enforced unspoken caste system. We are all expected to conform to this system in one way or another, because those at the top of it (white WASPS) benefit from it, and this is how they hold their power. It is not a conspiracy theory because I don’t think there is a board of rich and all powerful white man that hand down “rules of racial conformity” most of it is automatically set in place and reinforced by all of us, everyday. To me this is very sad, and as an African American, it is probably a more serious problem to me than it is to most of you, because my people are at the bottom of this system, and have been since the conception…because that was why it was initially formed, it just got a hell of a lot more complicated as different ethnicities came here that could not be classified as traditionally
”white or black.” I will not go into that, because it is very complex and it takes away from the topic, so if someone wants to discuss that we can start a new topic or you can PM me.

Integration

I think the focus should be more on integration because I do not believe a cleft country based on various enclaves will result in a stable country. If anything we need more national unity as the racial dynamic in this country shifts away from white American political dominence (due to decreasing population). More fragmentation is not good. Main problem with integration is...who much can minorities integrate into the Mainstream? It is not just a question of want? How much are visible minorities allowed to integrate. I think Asians are probably better off than most other racial groups in this reguard...so once again maybe this is not such a big issue for you guys.

It doesn't matter anyway, to me in reality, it is a good topic of conversation, but after grad school I am leaving this country. I do not want to raise my children here for various reasons, one of the main reasons is that I believe America makes minorities, especially black or part black people hate themselves, self hatred is rampant in minority groups who are very Americanized, especially in blacks, and I don't want my children to grow up to with a "nigger mentality" for me I can take drop income for a better way of life, because I think that results in a higher standard of living. I think due to media propoganda and influence from others that will serve as a reinforcement of stereotypes in the media it would be very harmful to the development of a black child. That is what my wife and I believe anyway...we are not about da deadprez.....we are about a comfortable living and a quiet peaceful way of life and being able to work in the fields that we love.

Also like Alibab, I don't have much faith in America's economic future, and I haven't for many years...this standard of living we have can not be maintained indefinately, it will end, sooner than many of you think.

Lastely, American society has lost so much of its social values, today everyones attitude tends to be "its all good all the time" and it gets worse every generation, children have little respect, violent crime is just ridiculous, the culture is increasing in violence, and people become more self centered as time goes on...I think the society will implode from within (like Rome) before it succumbs to outside attack.

Oh well...I won't be here, i will watch it on CNN by satellite from somewhere else...2 more years... :D
Anyway I am rushing to type this long as thread as usual…later [/b][/quote]
No disrespect taken...but when did I insult you? All I said was that it was my opinion that you couldn't effectively support your argument, and based on a cursory glance at your long response, I don't feel like my opinion is coming out of left field. Most of your statements seem to be supported, in my opinion, by a slightly fragmented perspective of history or the present, and it's this slightly askewed foundation that you're building your ideas upon.

Perhaps I'm taking your argument out of context or am totally missing your point (and if so, just say so!:P), but you seem to be essentially saying that for any peaceful coexistence to occur, there must be a clear majority or ruling power to enforce some type of national identity; the supression of the minority is a necessary but possibly unfortunate consequence, since power can never be properly shared anyway -- in fact, power is never relinquished willingly by the majority. Therefore, attempts by minorities to barricade themselves off from everyone else to establish some fleeting pseudo group mindset is futile, since they'll only succeed at hindering this amalgamation process to consolidate *cough* (white) power...

My response...

1) If power does indeed occur in a vaccuum (ironically some extreme liberal critical race theorists espouse the same thing, that power never exists equally, it's always used by the majority to oppress the minority), then why on earth should whites continue to wield control? Why not some other group -- say, Asians for example?

2) It's ironic that as you critique the attempts of racial minorities to empower themselves -- because their identity is a fabrication anyway -- you're at the same time calling for them to instead embrace a different identity, that of being an American. So what exactly are the righteous bonds that tie us as Americans that are so antithetical to racial identification? Perhaps it's this part of your argument that makes it hard for me to take what you're saying seriously, and I think Sungwukung touched on this when he said that in America, minorities could live in ethnic enclaves and not identify themselves as Americans while at the same time holding citizenship. I find it ironic that while minorities are told to settle down, act proper, and get in the line of "Americans," when it will suit the majority, they'll kick us out of that very line. Typically when I hear people talk lovingly of the national American ideal, I think they're actually saying a national white ideal.

3) Flawed vehicle though it might be, American democracy is a pretty cool thing. It ensures that power should never be entrenched in one particular group, regardless of the thinly-perceived benefits of having that group run things, and it's the reason why the transfer of power is not only possible, but it's happening bit by bit every day. I don't like term limits for a number of reasons, but its saving grace is that it provides a mechanism to ensure that we don't have to give a shit about whites trippin' out over losing power -- it will happen and they will have to deal with it.

4) Think of ethnicity or race in pragmatic terms.

RasFarengi

08-04-2003, 10:32 AM

SWK:

so... we should progressively marry out of our own races and progressively make an effort to ignore our ethnic heritage, in order that white people will feel like we're one of them?

No. Ignore your ethnic heritage? Uhm…I don’t know your full background although I have caught bits and snippets of it. From what I gather, you were born in Hong Kong, moved here at some point, went to high school and college here, and have stated (maybe jokingly) you are here for economic reasons and are considering going back to Hong Kong. Is that right? In that case I guess I can understand your opinion, but for those who willing immigrate here and want to be apart of this society, I think old world heritage should take a backseat to where you are now and your loyalty and allegiance to this country.

As far as making “white people feel comfortable” no…that is not what I am saying…not even close, actually what I am proposing is quite the opposite, it will probably make a lot of white people uncomfortable, very much so.

by the way, is this basically a post promoting interracial relationships? 

No.

in case you didn't already know, according to the things that mixed members of YW have posted in the hapa forum, mixed children don't necessarily feel accepted by whites. a lot of times they're discriminated against by whites and whatever non-white mix they are of. or if both of their parents are not white, the discrimination they receive could be even worse.

I know, I said in the post above, that the Catch 22 is that integration is not just contingent on minorities wanting to integrate, whites have to allow it. It goes both ways…

or maybe you're talking about how people in interracial marriages themselves would be accepted by whites? i don't think i have to tell you that this is also not necessarily something very accepted by whites.

No that is not what I am saying…that is a side issue.

as for integration - and i'm still not sure what your definition of this is - i don't think it is possible to integrate into the mainstream without losing your ethnic heritage. in other words, if i'm eating a burger, then i'm not eating a cha shao bao. i don't not hang out with white people because they're white. i just prefer to hang out with Chinese people and do things like eating dimsum, playing mahjong, and speaking Chinese while i do these things (like i did yesterday). it's not that i don't think white people are incapable of eating dimsum, or playing mahjong, or speaking Chinese. if i can find some white people that can do this, i'd prefer to hang out with them and do these things with them just as much as i'd prefer to with Chinese people. does this make me "divisive" or "dangerous" to this country? i don't think so. because here i am today at work, speaking English, working alongside white people, and i'd probably be eating Western food for lunch. fortunately for most Asian people in the US, unlike Nigerians, we have easy access to people, food, cultural materials, etc etc, of our own ethnicity in most big cities in the US. i think this is a wonderful thing. and with the advent of mass communication in East Asia as well as in the US, we also have easy communication with East Asian countries as well.

You are free to have your opinion, and like I said that may be based on your attitude concerning why you’re here and how long you want to stay here. I’m still not sure what that is. I mean my father is somewhat similar in attitude to you, when he retires he will move back to Nigeria (or so he says, which I doubt), but he doesn’t want to be American, and is not a citizen (holds a Green card) always has.

so you've said that this "integration" thing is maybe not such a big problem amongst Asian Americans. perhaps you just have a problem with Hispanic Americans not knowing how to speak English and socialising only with other Hispanic Americans? and you think that they're "dangerous" for this country?

Let’s clear up one thing, I have no problem with Hispanics on a personal level. There are many in Houston, and I have never had bad dealings with them since I have been here. I have a Mexican American friend I hang out with some time…his wife (also Mexican) and my wife and I go out with them once in a while, they are cool.

Still I see a huge number of unintegrated Hispanics coming to this country and crowding in certain areas as potentially dangerous, yes. The problem is not Hispanics coming here, I am all for immigration, without immigration I would not even be here…my father is an immigrant. My perspective is not unique, many American academics are starting to speak about this, and many academics in Europe, concerning the Muslims immigrants.

i think it is entirely possible to teach tolerance and acceptance to people even if they are seperated amongst racial and ethnic lines. it's not our differences that cause tension, it's our lack of respect for other people. and i don't believe there is a "definite racial hierarchy" in American society that all racial groups must stick to, and that it is up to white people to allot power to minorities. to have this attitude is what i'd call a "victim mentality". i am not saying that there aren't certain racially discriminatory practices that are unspokenly institutionalised, but here is where i'd say that the term "minority" is too much of an umbrella term and it marginalises Asian Americans, including us when it's convenient, in order to have a numerical advantage. i am not black, and maybe this problem of "definite racial hierarchy" applies more to blacks, but i don't think it applies all that much to Asians. there is a glass ceiling for us in reaching executive positions in the corporate world, but even the fobby amongst us is not so discriminated against that we cannot get middle class blue-collar jobs because of discrimination.

As I said in my post it begin as a black-white racial dynamic, and I believe it does effect other minorities, but not to the extent it effects whites and blacks. I wouldn’t call it a “victim mentality” as much as I would call it a reality. I am no victim. I don’t sit around and cry when the white man’s dick doesn’t fall in my hands. I wasn’t raised like that. I am educated, and in pursuit of more education. I also work a fulltime and write briefs for a marketing firm for their clients who want to do business abroad, typically I write about East Asia, but I have also just completed something about Ghana.

or maybe you can explain more about this "definite racial hierarchy" to us, and give us some examples of how this applies to us in everyday life. maybe i just don't understand what you mean.

For me to fully do justice to this topic Sun, it would be ridiculously long (even more ridiculous than my last post). I know this is a controversial topic and unless I give endless examples and detailed explanation it won’t sound convincing. I think the best thing I can do is refer you to a some reading, if you are seriously interested in this topic, and in my opinions concerning this topic, the person that reflects them best is:

Black Lies, White Lies, by Tony Brown.

Many black Americans gave Mr. Brown a lot of heat over this book, but I think he is telling the truth…white folks haven’t liked it much either.

achtungbaby

08-04-2003, 10:34 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Aug 4 2003, 08:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> i think it is entirely possible to teach tolerance and acceptance to people even if they are seperated amongst racial and ethnic lines. it's not our differences that cause tension, it's our lack of respect for other people. [/b][/quote]
Personally I think tensions can be raised out of our own laziness. It's much easier to perceive things from our own perspective, and it's not as if we can't comprehend differences and respect (diversity), we'd just much rather burp and wave our hands dismissively -- maybe even mutter something about political correctness. Sometimes we'll even be stubbornly lethargic and refuse other perspective entirely, regardless of the context (punching a guy in the face and then telling him it doesn't hurt, even if he thinks it does).

ChairmanMah

08-04-2003, 11:13 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 4 2003, 09:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
[/b][/quote]
[QUOTE]I know, I said in the post above, that the Catch 22 is that integration is not just contingent on minorities wanting to integrate, whites have to allow it. It goes both ways
[QUOTE]

sorry to interupt again but regarding what you said;

What's the point of integrating or diversifying? If whites don't allow or tolerate shit no matter how good our english is or how many white friends we have then why the heck are we trying to be American/Canadian to please them? We should naturally do as we would and not care what whites say and even fight back. If there's no acceptance from them, there's shouldn't be any acceptance from us neither. If they mock us, we should physically hurt them if we can to send our message out not to fuck with us as i've said before. If i get caught for assaulting someone and it makes the news that would be the perfect opportunity for me to send my message across in public and gain more support. But i doubt they would air my interview anyways. It would be just another way of silencing us and preventing us from mobilizing. We need to bring fear. All this talk shit is futile.

SunWuKong

08-04-2003, 11:34 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ChairmanMah @ Aug 4 2003, 02:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I know, I said in the post above, that the Catch 22 is that integration is not just contingent on minorities wanting to integrate, whites have to allow it. It goes both ways
[QUOTE]

sorry to interupt again but regarding what you said;

What's the point of integrating or diversifying? If whites don't allow or tolerate shit no matter how good our english is or how many white friends we have then why the heck are we trying to be American/Canadian to please them? We should naturally do as we would and not care what whites say and even fight back. If there's no acceptance from them, there's shouldn't be any acceptance from us neither. If they mock us, we should physically hurt them if we can to send our message out not to fuck with us as i've said before. If i get caught for assaulting someone and it makes the news that would be the perfect opportunity for me to send my message across in public and gain more support. But i doubt they would air my interview anyways. It would be just another way of silencing us and preventing us from mobilizing. We need to bring fear. All this talk shit is futile. [/b]
um... ok... let it be known that ChairmanMah's opinions do not exactly represent those of the majority of the members on YW.

ChairmanMah

08-04-2003, 11:47 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Aug 4 2003, 10:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I know, I said in the post above, that the Catch 22 is that integration is not just contingent on minorities wanting to integrate, whites have to allow it. It goes both ways
[QUOTE]

sorry to interupt again but regarding what you said;

What's the point of integrating or diversifying? If whites don't allow or tolerate shit no matter how good our english is or how many white friends we have then why the heck are we trying to be American/Canadian to please them? We should naturally do as we would and not care what whites say and even fight back. If there's no acceptance from them, there's shouldn't be any acceptance from us neither. If they mock us, we should physically hurt them if we can to send our message out not to fuck with us as i've said before. If i get caught for assaulting someone and it makes the news that would be the perfect opportunity for me to send my message across in public and gain more support. But i doubt they would air my interview anyways. It would be just another way of silencing us and preventing us from mobilizing. We need to bring fear. All this talk shit is futile.
um... ok... let it be known that ChairmanMah's opinions do not exactly represent those of the majority of the members on YW. [/b]
that's what you think. everyone just suppresses those