Racial Similarities Between Japanese and Koreans

[Red_Matrix]

Hey,

Just want to start a new thread here. As a Korean-Canadian I was wondering what my fellow Koreans (and Japanese) think of the fact that Koreans and Japanese share the same racial ancestry. I know that there has been so much bad-blood between both groups throughout history that many Koreans I know "hate" Japanese people (though Japanese people I know don't seem to share the same level of hatred). Anyways, isn't Koreans hating Japanese people (and vice versa) like two brothers hating each other (yet who live in two different homes)? From what I've studied from books and articles both the Koreans and Japanese derive from the same Tungusic people who live in Siberia. Linguists have generally classified Korean and Japanese as belonging to the Altaic family group. It just so happens that the modern-day Japanese ethnic stock came from earlier Korean tribes who migrated to the island during the pre-kingdom days (also, Paekche contributed to much of the genetic stock of the Japanese by sending nobles there during the three kingdom era). I know people will tell me that modern Japanese people have some Ainu and South Pacific genes also (which also can be said of some Koreans who live in the southern provinces). However, the predominant genetic stock of modern Japanese is Korean.  Thus, the question is, should we continue to harbour hate and distrust towards each other knowing that both ethnic groups essentially share the same blood and genes? Like to hear your opinions.

[Faithless]

Never fails: someone always swears they can tell 'em apart.

[RasFarengi]

Uhm...would you say the original genetic stock was "Korean" or it was just Mongoloids who moved South East through the Korean penninsula.

As you said it was in mostly in the "PreKingdom" period that a large bulk of the immigration took place...so these people technically were not "Korean..." they were probably several tribes of Altiac speakers who originated somewhere in NOrthern Asia (possibly Mongolia) and to my knowledge came on horseback...some eventually became what we know as Korea some became Japanese.

Then their was the Chinese migrations too...into present day Japan and Korea...

I don't know...to me it is like saying...well...French people are primarily Italian or specifically Roman, because their language is a ROmance language that evolved from Latin.  The truth is the inhabitants who were already their (Celtic tribes) were subdued by superior forces and made to speak Latin, which became bastardized with local languages, and then the Germatic tribes also invaded later on, and added their mix...and now you have the French.   SO are French primarily Roman? 

[BeTheReds]

Hey there again.

I think I must have exhausted my views on this in another thread, tho I don't remember where it is.

Yes, I believe that the largest genetic contributor to the Japanese racial makeup is from people who migrated to Japan from the Korean peninsula.

However we must realize that these people were not yet Koreans.

You can say that Koreans and Japanese descended from a common ancestor and that Koreans more closely reflect that ancestor due to being so against outsiders (tho certainly China and being invaded by the Mongols did leave genetic and cultural marks) while Japan instead was the convergence of several ethnic groups ranging from ainu to polynesians to southern chinese.  You can not say however that Japanese people are descended from Koreans.

To this effect, the Japanese and Koreans are as much "brethren" as the Jews and Arabs are.

Now regarding on all that hate, it naturally results from Japan's actions in WW2 and its failure to apoligize for them and attone for them by actually teaching Japanese kids in school about what happened.  Instead when people study about Korea they learn about Kimchi and chonankan.

Korea on the other hand teaches history (tho admittedly biased history) and the school system in Korea evokes nationalistic pride and this fosters hatred towards Japan. 

Naturally Japanese kids are not going to feel the hatred towards Korea because Korea didn't do anything to their grandparents.  If anything they will like Korea because suddenly it's a wonderful new fad thanks to the world cup and BoA.

[RasFarengi]

Naturally Japanese kids are not going to feel the hatred towards Korea because Korea didn't do anything to their grandparents.  If anything they will like Korea because suddenly it's a wonderful new fad thanks to the world cup and BoA.




This was interesting...I was talking to my wife about this before.  I noticed that Koreans from Korea are seen in a differnet light than Zainichi Kankokujin (Koreans born in Japan)...have you noticed that or heard that?  I used to live not so far from Korea Town in Tokyo, like 5 minutes on the Sobu Line from ShinOkubo area that borders Kabuki-cho...and I had a lot of  contact with Zainichi Koreans...cause I used to eat lunch there and stuff...anyway...not sure if you have been to the area or met a lot of these people.


Hey isn't that Blasian J-pop singer Crystal K...half Zainichi KOrea/black American?

[SunWuKong]

<!--QuoteBegin-BeTheReds+Jul 25 2003, 08:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BeTheReds @ Jul 25 2003, 08:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You can say that Koreans and Japanese descended from a common ancestor [/b][/quote]
exactly what i think, and it's the same thing that i tell Chinese people who want to think that all East Asians descended from the Chinese.

[RasFarengi]

Yeah if you want to use that line of reasoning, I am sure some Ethiopians or Kenyans can just say..."Oh yeah Japanese are East Africans...so are Chinese..."

I mean...just depends on how far you want to go back, the truth is their are no pure people, people have also always migrated, especially before the invention of nation-states.&nbsp;

[SunWuKong]

<!--QuoteBegin-RasFarengi+Jul 25 2003, 10:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Jul 25 2003, 10:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah if you want to use that line of reasoning, I am sure some Ethiopians or Kenyans can just say..."Oh yeah Japanese are East Africans...so are Chinese..." [/b][/quote]
i laugh at those people.

[RasFarengi]

Well their is that Reggae song that fits perfectly with the Mitacondrial* Eve theory...it says...

"Don't matter where you come from..as long as you're a black man,

Don't matter where you come from you're still an African..."

Well replace black man with hu-man and there you have it. hehe B)

[MellowDrama]

What about the theory that the Japanese Royal Family (and a large chunk of the ruling class) was a part of the Paekche (sp) Kingdom in Korea that fled to Japan when they were defeated by Silla?

That happened "only" around 350 AD. 1200 years is like a nanosecond in terms of evolution and geneaology.

[RasFarengi]

Mellow:

We will never know...until the Japanese Royal Family opens up the ancestrial records to the public, they have not, and probably will not.


The current Emporer, Akihito Tenno reinterated the legend the mother of the first Emporer was from one of the Korean kingdoms...most educated Japanese know this.

I have also heard stories that the Samurai warrior class are decendant of Ainu...who knows...it is true that many of the Japanese ruling class don't look like&nbsp; the stereotypical person on the street, but well...could come from centuries of imbreading, not until this century did they marry none-royal blood.&nbsp; Lot of West Virginia action goin' on...similar to the European Royals, probably worse. Yuck.

[RasFarengi]

afraid of being found out by their korean name, ashamed because the japanese govt. says they aren't citizens.




Prof:

Correct me if I am wrong, but Zainichi have a fast tract to citizenship if they agree to change their names and take a Japanese names.&nbsp; This was a special law passed by the Diet to integrate the Zainichi, many refused to give up their Korean names due to ethnic pride, but still they have a choice.

The only thing i heard about this is that it is still possible to find out they are ethnic Korean through records at the "city hall.." and in the past this was common, but now illegal (although it can probably still be found out through background investigations).

You are right the Japanese do discriminate, but once again, I did not find them more xenophobic or prejudice than their Asian neighbors, actually I found them less so.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Uh let's face it.&nbsp; Not to sound idealistic and cliche or nuthin' (too late), but first of all, hating someone simply for their blood or lineage, regardless of whether it is similar to yours or totally different, is stupid.&nbsp; Similarly, loving someone for the same reasons is also stupid.&nbsp; I'm not going to call some Chinese guy my 'brother' just because we have either similar or same blood, just like I'm not going to hate on a Scandinavian guy because we have different blood or lineage.&nbsp; So I think the answer is obvious when you ask 'Should Koreans and Japanese really hate each other?' regardless of how much genetic similarity they share.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

<!--QuoteBegin-RasFarengi+Jul 25 2003, 01:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Jul 25 2003, 01:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
You are right the Japanese do discriminate, but once again, I did not find them more xenophobic or prejudice than their Asian neighbors, actually I found them less so. [/b][/quote]

I actually think you're right about that...Chinese and Korean nationals (not sure about Vietnamese or other Asians, but I know that my Filipino friend's family hates Japanese people) are worse in general from what I have both heard and experienced. Forget what you read in 'Rising Sun' about the Japanese being the 'most racist people on earth' haha. To be fair, Korea and China (and other Asian countries) in the past have not been put in the global spotlight regarding areas such as 'technological advancement' or being a first-world country as much and perhaps do not feel as much pressure to adopt more 'openminded' or 'diversity-accepting' (for lack of better term) laws, although that is changing (when are things ever not changing? lol).

[Red_Matrix]

Wow, bunch of responses...hmm...where to begin...

First to RasFarengi: You're right about the fact that those Altaic people who moved through the Korean peninsula into Japan before the kingdom days were technically not Korean--but that is just that a technicality. Those people who did migrate into Japan share the same blood as modern-day Koreans too. Your example of the French (to prove your point) is interesting. It is true that the primary genetic stock of the French is Celtic (like the Irish and Scots) even though they speak a Romance language. And it is true that the modern French language is an offspring of Latin (thus the racial background doesn't fit with the linguistic data). However, the French situation and Korean/Japanese situation is different. Koreans were not imposed a foreign language (modern-day Korean is of Silla extraction--which is also Altaic in origin) samd with Japanese (though it does contain some elements of South-East Asian). However, the language groups of both countries match their genetic roots--both speak a generally Altaic language and both are of primarily Tungusic origin.

To WB: I have to disagree with you here. The modern-day Japanese genetic makeup is primarily of the same stock that entered Korea before the three-kingdom period. Antropologists, archaelogists, and linguists have confirmed this conclusion.&nbsp; And the majority of modern-day Koreans are of this stock that entered the peninsula before the three-kingdom days. In addition, many Paekche people migrated to Japan. It is true that in general Koreans generally tend to look more Tungusic than the Japanese, but I believe that there are two factors contributing to this: the Mongol occupation of Korea (some Koreans I know look outright Mongolian) and the Ainu/Polynesian element in Japan (yet, this strain is very small compared to the primary Tungusic genetic strain). In terms, of hatred, perhaps we should just let the past be the past (I know some Japanese people who are really cool to hang out with than some Koreans).&nbsp; Thus, I ain't gonna let history determine who I become friends with.

Anyways, I've exhausted my breath here too...

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Once again, to me yeah some Koreans and Japanese look alike or very similar, but I also see a lot that do not. Japanese on the whole tend to be shorter and thinner and have much more genetic variety in terms of size of the eyes, tint of the skin, etc (but with change in diet, or, uh...dieting fads, that may vary).&nbsp; You can say that the genepool of modern-day Koreans and the genepool of modern-day Japanese have a big section of overlap. However, once again I like many people have said, it is more about region than anything else, and to ask whether or not Koreans or Japanese should hate each other is like asking if the Scots or Irish have a right to hate the British and vice versa (but they are so genetically similar!).

[AliBabaIncorporated]

<!--QuoteBegin-RasFarengi+Jul 25 2003, 02:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Jul 25 2003, 02:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Correct me if I am wrong, but Zainichi have a fast tract to citizenship if they agree to change their names and take a Japanese names. This was a special law passed by the Diet to integrate the Zainichi, many refused to give up their Korean names due to ethnic pride, but still they have a choice. [/b][/quote]
There's over a million ethnic Koreans in Japan, but only 538,000 persons of North or South Korean nationality who hold "tokubetu eizyuuken" (which is acquired at birth). That is to say, half the population naturalized anyway. Why not the other half? Dunno, maybe it's the Souren commie thugs coming around and harassing them, as has been documented in various cases.

Or for that matter, maybe it's all the Kim Jong Il personality cult, hate the Japanese "ethnic education." As much as I can sympathize with the situation of Koreans in Japan as being similar to Chinese in Malaysia ... people who use ethnic education to promote a hostile attitude towards the mainstream, find the mainstream developing a hostile attitude towards them. Fact of life, and one of the responsibilities that goes along with the right of free speech and free association.

The Brits and then the Malays did us Chinese a huge favor, possibly the only one they've ever done for us, by crushing out the Communist factions in Dongjiaozong and all the other Chinese school teachers' federation. It prevented the radicalization of a generation of schoolkids which would have made present ethnic tensions much worse. Unfortunately Japan wasn't able to do the same, or they were just too damn clumsy about it (like just trying to clamp down on all ethnic education entirely back in the late 40s).

[BeTheReds]

<!--QuoteBegin-RasFarengi+Jul 25 2003, 11:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Jul 25 2003, 11:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Naturally Japanese kids are not going to feel the hatred towards Korea because Korea didn't do anything to their grandparents. If anything they will like Korea because suddenly it's a wonderful new fad thanks to the world cup and BoA.




This was interesting...I was talking to my wife about this before. I noticed that Koreans from Korea are seen in a differnet light than Zainichi Kankokujin (Koreans born in Japan)...have you noticed that or heard that? I used to live not so far from Korea Town in Tokyo, like 5 minutes on the Sobu Line from ShinOkubo area that borders Kabuki-cho...and I had a lot of contact with Zainichi Koreans...cause I used to eat lunch there and stuff...anyway...not sure if you have been to the area or met a lot of these people.


Hey isn't that Blasian J-pop singer Crystal K...half Zainichi KOrea/black American? [/b][/quote]
Zainiti don't live in Okubo, recent Korean immigrants who speak Korean as their native language do.&nbsp; It's a Koreatown much like any other Koreatown in the world.&nbsp; Most zainiti have since moved out and are active participants in Japanese society.&nbsp; Very few if any of the people in Okubo are zainitis.

[BeTheReds]

<!--QuoteBegin-Red_Matrix+Jul 26 2003, 06:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Red_Matrix @ Jul 26 2003, 06:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow, bunch of responses...hmm...where to begin...

First to RasFarengi: You're right about the fact that those Altaic people who moved through the Korean peninsula into Japan before the kingdom days were technically not Korean--but that is just that a technicality. Those people who did migrate into Japan share the same blood as modern-day Koreans too. Your example of the French (to prove your point) is interesting. It is true that the primary genetic stock of the French is Celtic (like the Irish and Scots) even though they speak a Romance language. And it is true that the modern French language is an offspring of Latin (thus the racial background doesn't fit with the linguistic data). However, the French situation and Korean/Japanese situation is different. Koreans were not imposed a foreign language (modern-day Korean is of Silla extraction--which is also Altaic in origin) samd with Japanese (though it does contain some elements of South-East Asian). However, the language groups of both countries match their genetic roots--both speak a generally Altaic language and both are of primarily Tungusic origin.

To WB: I have to disagree with you here. The modern-day Japanese genetic makeup is primarily of the same stock that entered Korea before the three-kingdom period. Antropologists, archaelogists, and linguists have confirmed this conclusion. And the majority of modern-day Koreans are of this stock that entered the peninsula before the three-kingdom days. In addition, many Paekche people migrated to Japan. It is true that in general Koreans generally tend to look more Tungusic than the Japanese, but I believe that there are two factors contributing to this: the Mongol occupation of Korea (some Koreans I know look outright Mongolian) and the Ainu/Polynesian element in Japan (yet, this strain is very small compared to the primary Tungusic genetic strain). In terms, of hatred, perhaps we should just let the past be the past (I know some Japanese people who are really cool to hang out with than some Koreans). Thus, I ain't gonna let history determine who I become friends with.

Anyways, I've exhausted my breath here too... [/b][/quote]
Hey dude, stop calling me WB.&nbsp; It's BTR or BeTheReds.&nbsp; Should I start calling you Yelloworld Fetus?&nbsp; ahhahaha

Anyway all I was saying is that Japanese and Koreans are no longer the same people genetically or culturally because Japan and Korea have gone thru different experiences in history.&nbsp; You even cited the mongols and ainu as seperate genetic contributors and they would also be cultural contributors too.&nbsp;

Anyway as a fellow Korean I am sure you know about... "the look" and can readily tell a japanese from a Korean 80% of the time just on sight.

[supernova]

<!--QuoteBegin-FrozenPizza+Jul 25 2003, 01:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FrozenPizza @ Jul 25 2003, 01:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-RasFarengi+Jul 25 2003, 01:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Jul 25 2003, 01:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
You are right the Japanese do discriminate, but once again, I did not find them more xenophobic or prejudice than their Asian neighbors, actually I found them less so. [/b][/quote]

I actually think you're right about that...Chinese and Korean nationals (not sure about Vietnamese or other Asians, but I know that my Filipino friend's family hates Japanese people) are worse in general from what I have both heard and experienced. Forget what you read in 'Rising Sun' about the Japanese being the 'most racist people on earth' haha. To be fair, Korea and China (and other Asian countries) in the past have not been put in the global spotlight regarding areas such as 'technological advancement' or being a first-world country as much and perhaps do not feel as much pressure to adopt more 'openminded' or 'diversity-accepting' (for lack of better term) laws, although that is changing (when are things ever not changing? lol). [/b][/quote]
I know my mom (vietnamese) hates the chinese people at some degree... even though she speaks Mandarin fluently.:blink: