"Race" Mixing in Prehistoric Asia

[RasFarengi]

I read a study on my old site that showed almost 50% of Japanese can trace their origins on thier paternal side back to China, this was confirmed by DNA testing.

I immediately questioned where did the other 50% or so come from.

I also commented before how Japanese children are often born with brown hair and it doesn't turn black till adolescance and how Japanese tend to be more hairy on average than other East Asians.

Well many don't know but before the Mongoloids invaded the Japanese isles from Mainland Asia, probably coming to Japan by horse from Mongolia and slowly moving South through present day Korea into Southern Japan...there were ALREADY PEOPLE THERE and they definately were not mongoloid physically or linguistically, even today people do not know exactly how to classify them.

Those people became known as the Ainu, and like Native Americans they have mostly intermixed or been whipped out, some live on reservations in the Northern most islands of Japan near Siberia, but they appear very mixed with ethnic Japanese. There ancestors however...well that is a different story.

to view this site you need FLASH, you can skip the intro..

http://www.mnh.si.edu/arctic/features/ainu/index.html


Maybe this explains why Japanese kids often born with brown hair and maintain it till they are maybe 6 or 7 years old, some ((like my wife) never develop very black hair (jet black) it is actually very dark brown, although hair dying in Japan is so common now you can't tell whose hair is naturally brown and whose isn't anymore. 

[SunWuKong]

i've read that the Ainu have certain Caucasoid features.

[supernova]

when i click on enter, it redirects to the same page o_O

[RasFarengi]

Yeah...I think they are just some proto-race that basically died out, or never existed in large numbers and got aborbed.  Some got lost and ended up in Japan in isolation, at least for a while.

Pure ainu (which are as hard to find as a Pure Native American) don't have eye folds, are very hairy, often pale, dark brown or black hair, built short and stalky, not thin.

There are other "lose races" that don't really look like anyone else in the world.

The Lapps of Northern Europe

The Bushmen of South Eastern Africa.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

<!--QuoteBegin-SunWuKung+Jul 24 2003, 09:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Jul 24 2003, 09:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i've read that the Ainu have certain Caucasoid features. [/b][/quote]
Probably just convergent evolution which made them look vaguely similar. After all, there are various African ethnic groups who have the epicanthic fold.

[RasFarengi]

After all, there are various African ethnic groups who have the epicanthic fold.


That's true.&nbsp; Many people from Sengal have eye folds, most people don't know that...

well most of the genetic diversity on earth can still be found in Africa...that is were man orginated, and from what I read, only a small amount of people left to populate the rest of the world, less than 1,000 people according to some estimates...that is why Europeans and Japanese can be more closely related genetically than a Hausa NIgerian and a Zulu South African.&nbsp;

[YuheiCarreau]

<!--QuoteBegin-RasFarengi+Jul 24 2003, 10:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Jul 24 2003, 10:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah...I think they are just some proto-race that basically died out, or never existed in large numbers and got aborbed. Some got lost and ended up in Japan in isolation, at least for a while.

Pure ainu (which are as hard to find as a Pure Native American) don't have eye folds, are very hairy, often pale, dark brown or black hair, built short and stalky, not thin.

There are other "lose races" that don't really look like anyone else in the world.

The Lapps of Northern Europe

The Bushmen of South Eastern Africa. [/b][/quote]
My tutor told me that pureblood Ainu don't exist anymore. They're all mixed to some degree. I've also read that the Japanese language, while gramatically similar to Korean, has a 'sound library' (or something like that) more closely related to languages from the pacific islands.

Also, you left out the Basque people of the Iberian peninsula, who are believed to be descendant from Neanderthals.

[yoMAMA]

The Chinese is&nbsp; pretty mixed 'race' too.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

<!--QuoteBegin-YuheiCarreau+Jul 24 2003, 09:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (YuheiCarreau @ Jul 24 2003, 09:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My tutor told me that pureblood Ainu don't exist anymore. They're all mixed to some degree. I've also read that the Japanese language, while gramatically similar to Korean, has a 'sound library' (or something like that) more closely related to languages from the pacific islands. [/b][/quote]
The technical term is "phonemic inventory," I think.&nbsp; :P What's the Japanese word you're thinking of?

Usually when linguists see a language with a phonemic inventory matching one group of people and a grammatical structure matching another, they figure it for an overlay phenomenon.&nbsp; That is, there may have been an indigenous group speaking a Polynesian-related language, who then somehow got involved with a bunch of more technologically advanced Korean immigrants. So they adopted a lot of the latter's vocabulary and even grammar, but kept their own basic words and sound structure.

[BeTheReds]

<!--QuoteBegin-YuheiCarreau+Jul 25 2003, 01:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (YuheiCarreau @ Jul 25 2003, 01:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
My tutor told me that pureblood Ainu don't exist anymore. They're all mixed to some degree. I've also read that the Japanese language, while gramatically similar to Korean, has a 'sound library' (or something like that) more closely related to languages from the pacific islands.

Also, you left out the Basque people of the Iberian peninsula, who are believed to be descendant from Neanderthals. [/b][/quote]
I took japanese linguistics, and Japanese used to have 8 vowel sounds. Korean has like 8 (not counting y sound vowels) (a, eo, u, oo, i, o, ae, eoi). Next Japanese has fewer sounds than Korean, but in the past used to have more this is evidenced by those old writing kana wi and we. The only not korean trait that the japanese sound library has is abscence of final consanants.

Oh and isn't it impossible for some people to have descended from neanderthals, i thought homo sapiens couldnt mate with them.

[RasFarengi]

Oh and isn't it impossible for some people to have descended from neanderthals, i thought homo sapiens couldnt mate with them.


To my knowledge that is being debated still.&nbsp; I think if it was possible, it happened though.&nbsp; Doesn't matter how ugly a woman is, there is always a man desperate enough to get with her. :D

Well seriously though, back then...I'm sure the "Kill all the men and boys take the women as slaves and rape them" happened a lot.&nbsp; Where their babies...?&nbsp; Last thing I read is some genetic type anthropologist said their is no active Neanderthal DNA in homo sapiens...but then some guy came and said that was false...so...

[krome]

Chinese ethnic minorities (http://www.china.org.cn/e-groups/shaoshu/)

[SunWuKong]

<!--QuoteBegin-krome+Jul 25 2003, 02:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (krome @ Jul 25 2003, 02:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Chinese ethnic minorities (http://www.china.org.cn/e-groups/shaoshu/) [/b][/quote]
those links are named after the official names of the ethnic minorities in China, and in case anybody didn't know, the Jing (http://www.china.org.cn/e-groups/shaoshu/shao-2-jing.htm) minority is actually Vietnamese people, and the Miao (http://www.china.org.cn/e-groups/shaoshu/shao-2-miao.htm) minority is actually Hmong people.

[MellowDrama]

<!--QuoteBegin-SunWuKung+Jul 25 2003, 12:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Jul 25 2003, 12:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> those links are named after the official names of the ethnic minorities in China, and in case anybody didn't know, the Jing (http://www.china.org.cn/e-groups/shaoshu/shao-2-jing.htm) minority is actually Vietnamese people, and the Miao (http://www.china.org.cn/e-groups/shaoshu/shao-2-miao.htm) minority is actually Hmong people. [/b][/quote]
Whoa, I didn't know that at all! Thx for the info!

[SunWuKong]

<!--QuoteBegin-MellowDrama+Jul 25 2003, 03:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MellowDrama @ Jul 25 2003, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Whoa, I didn't know that at all! Thx for the info! [/b][/quote]
yeah for some reason, the Korean, Russian, Mongolian, and Tibetan minority groups were all named by their English terms on that site, but the others are either named by their Chinese terms or the terms in their native languages.&nbsp; i don't know why.

[Faithless]

<!--QuoteBegin-krome+Jul 25 2003, 10:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (krome @ Jul 25 2003, 10:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Chinese ethnic minorities (http://www.china.org.cn/e-groups/shaoshu/) [/b][/quote]
Very interesting stuff.

The Russian ethnic minority (http://www.china.org.cn/e-groups/shaoshu/shao-2-russian.htm)

They had achieved a fairly high level of development in production and culture. But under reactionary rule, they were exploited and oppressed.

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The Russians living in urban areas now work mainly in industry, transport, finance, trade and medicine.

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Although the Russian ethnic group in China has a small population, it has deputies to the National People's Congress and the regional People's Congress. They take an active part in running state and regional affairs.

[Red_Matrix]

What RasFarengi has said is mostly true (I don't know about the 50% of Japanese blood being Chinese). Yes, it is true that before the Tungusic people arrived there were group of native tribes already settled on the islands (Ainu). Many scholars believe that the present-day Ainu descended from the Jomon culture (while the Yayoi culture came from the Korean peninsula). Some Ainu (there are some who are nearly pure-blooded) look like Latins from southern Europe (some even have green eyes). This explains the hairyness and high-nasal profiles of many Japanese. In regards to vocabulary, the modern-Japanese is essentially of the Altaic variety (the grammatical structure for example), but many words in Japanese have links to South East Asia. The vowel-endings are probably from an Ainu extraction.

[RasFarengi]

Study of Korean Male Origins

Sunghee Hong, Seong-Gene Lee, Yongsook Yoon, Kyuyoung Song
University of Ulsan College of Medicine, 388-1 Poongnap-dong, Songpa-ku, Seoul, Korea

Population studies of genetic markers such as HLA variation and mitochondrial DNA have been used to understand human origins, demographic and migration history. Recently, diversity on the nonrecombining portion of the Y chromosome (NRY) has been applied to the study of human history. Since NRY is passed from father to son without recombination, polymorphisms in this region are valuable for investigating male-mediated gene flow and for complementing maternally based studies of mtDNA. Haplotypes constructed from Y-chromosome markers were used to trace the paternal origins of Korean. By using 38 Y chromosome single nucleotide polymorphism markers, we analyzed the genetic structure of 195 Korean males. The Korean males were characterized by a diverse set of 4 haplogroups (Groups IV, V, VII, X) and 14 haplotypes that were also present in Chinese. The most frequent haplogroup in Korean was Group VII (82.6%). It was also the most frequent haplogroup in Chinese (95%) as well as in Japanese (45%). The frequencies of the haplogroups V, IV, and X were 15.4%, 1%, and 1%, respectively. The second most frequent haplogroup V in Korean was not present in Chinese, but its frequency was similar in Japanese. We have tried to correlate the Y variation with surname to determine how well the clan membership corresponds to Y variation. There were 37 surnames in our sample but genetic variation structure did not correlate with surnames.


==============================================

Basically Koreans are far from pure too, they and Japanese have had quite a bit of Chinese admixture as well as the previous groups mentioned.

Oh about the green eyed Inu...I once read that a lot (uhm not sure what a lot means) of Japanese/white biracials have green eyes, because the many Japanese have a recessive gene for it.

[Red_Matrix]

[QUOTE]Basically Koreans are far from pure too, they and Japanese have had quite a bit of Chinese admixture as well as the previous groups mentioned.

Oh about the green eyed Inu...I once read that a lot (uhm not sure what a lot means) of Japanese/white biracials have green eyes, because the many Japanese have a recessive gene for it.

Koreans are not that pure (as many think). Modern Koreans have genetic strains from the ancient Tungus, Chinese, the Mongol invaders, and some prehistoric Ainus.

In regards to the many Japanese/white mixtures having green eyes is true. This is a good indication that an Ainu element is still resident in many Japanese DNA. However, when you see a Chinese/white or Korean/white mix they usually have brown eyes or hazel eyes.

[YuheiCarreau]

Out of the dozen or so White-Japanese mixed families I know, not a single kid has green eyes.

[MellowDrama]

<!--QuoteBegin-YuheiCarreau+Jul 25 2003, 09:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (YuheiCarreau @ Jul 25 2003, 09:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Out of the dozen or so White-Japanese mixed families I know, not a single kid has green eyes. [/b][/quote]
Me 2. Every single one of them brown eyed.

[airborneranger]

So Ras, you mean Europeans found Japan when it is still empty ?

[RasFarengi]

Airborne:

No I don't think the Ainu are "European..." what I think is that at the time people roomed around in very smalll hunter/gather groups, and&nbsp; the idea of "race" as we define it now didn't exist.&nbsp; I am sure some of these groups had some "extreme features" or in-between features....but were eventually absorbed or killed off...Ainu were not, because they ended up isolated on the Japanese islands...well until the Mongoloids came and almost whipped them out (through war and genetic mixing)...

THe Bushmen are another example of people who don't really look "black" but don't look like anyone else, and genetically speaking they have been around before most "black African groups.."


Basically just because things are the way they are now, doesn't mean they have always been that way.

I am sure their were many more "races" of man in the past, but they got consolidated...as people mixed more and join in larger groups...

[Red_Matrix]

Quite an interesting observation Ras. I found the Ainu (the more purer ones anyway) look more europoid than mongoloid. But I agree that they don't fully conform to the typical European or Mongolian look (many Ainu look like "pudgy-faced" Europeans). The Bushmen of Africa have their own distinctive look too from their Bantu neighbours. Actually, they also tend have some mongoloid traits (e.g., epicanthic fold).