Confucianism

[SunWuKong]

i find it funny that Westerners talk about Confucianism as if it was an individual entity in East Asian cultures. but really, the concepts taught by Confucian scholars and their texts have been so secularised in East Asian cultures that East Asian people don't really have a concept of "Confucianism". it is just how their societies and histories are, and while they might think that those were influenced by texts that Confucius or his disciples wrote in ancient times, they don't really think that their ways of life are influenced by something called "Confucianism".

and i find it even more weird that some Westerners consider Confucianism a religion.

[AngryABCGirl]

I think Westerners tend to want to make all lifestyles and philosophies some form fo religion because Westerners tend to center morals around religions.  It's just their way of attempting to understand those crazy Orientals.

[supernova]

off topic but why a lot of (white) people think that confucian is a religion... i think it's rather philosophical...

[nonamerasian]

I'm a Westerner, but I've never been taught that Confucianism is a religion, but rather a system of thought.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Don't get mad, get even. Go to Hong Kong and write a series of sociological studies proving that Aesop's Fables are the most popularly followed religion in Western countries.

[kimpossible]

<!--QuoteBegin-SunWuKung+Jul 21 2003, 07:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Jul 21 2003, 07:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i find it funny that Westerners talk about Confucianism as if it was an individual entity in East Asian cultures. but really, the concepts taught by Confucian scholars and their texts have been so secularised in East Asian cultures that East Asian people don't really have a concept of "Confucianism". it is just how their societies and histories are, and while they might think that those were influenced by texts that Confucius or his disciples wrote in ancient times, they don't really think that their ways of life are influenced by something called "Confucianism".

and i find it even more weird that some Westerners consider Confucianism a religion. [/b][/quote]
I think it's because it's difficult for most Westerners to think outside of monotheism, in other words they need a person symbolic of worship. Most of the Westerners I meet who tell me they are into an Asian religion relay how they are Buddhist and worship Buddha. My husband put it best, "Buddha is not an oriental Jesus."

So, since I'm pretty darned close to a Westerner, I'd say it's difficult when you grow up with this message of culture meshed with religion like Christianity where you have to worship specific beings in this cosm of absolute right and wrong. A lot of people will refer back to things like 'what a good Christian does, " or "in the Bible it says." I would argue that Christianity shapes societal rules and norms in the US, and since it's not really possible to dissect the heavy religious aspect... well, it's hard to develop the idea of philosophy or way of life distinct from faith. Or something like that.

My biggest complaint is all those Western feng shui nuts running around in the US. I don't know where they get their info from but both one of the real estate brokers and a landscaper I talked to made all these weird assumptions about how we wanted the house or yard layed out.

[SunWuKong]

<!--QuoteBegin-nonamerasian+Jul 23 2003, 05:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nonamerasian @ Jul 23 2003, 05:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm a Westerner, but I've never been taught that Confucianism is a religion, but rather a system of thought. [/b][/quote]
yeah, i wasn't trying to say that all Westerners think this.&nbsp; only some.

[yoMAMA]

Yeah, Confucianism was never really a 'religion' in the context of the Judeo/Christian/Muslim way, where there must be one supereme being who creates everything.

I think there's alot of good things from Confucianism, such as Ren Ai, or love of your fellow men, and Jun Zi, or being a gentleman.

There are minuses of course, such as the classist and sexist tendencies of Confucian thought.

However, I still find it much better than those 'god based' religions/thoughts, where you have to follow this one teaching or go to hell.

[Eros]

<!--QuoteBegin-Hello_Hapa+Jul 23 2003, 04:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Hello_Hapa @ Jul 23 2003, 04:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My biggest complaint is all those Western feng shui nuts running around in the US. I don't know where they get their info from but both one of the real estate brokers and a landscaper I talked to made all these weird assumptions about how we wanted the house or yard layed out. [/b][/quote]
Yeah... it's almost funny. Although I know little about feng shui, I do laugh when I pass a new age style place that has feng shui envelopes (read: lycee(sp?)) that are "what Healers use to pass remedy recipies to their clients."

One of the problems I've always felt with the Abraham religions is that people seem to be oblivious to the fact that they change. The synthesis of relgions and the fact that they allow change is makes much more sense, imho. However, since Americans are used to the only one belief system rule, it's hard to see what asian religions/philosophies exactly are. Plus, some western philosophies are quite different than eastern.

[Deadpool]

<!--QuoteBegin-Eros+Jul 23 2003, 05:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Eros @ Jul 23 2003, 05:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->

One of the problems I've always felt with the Abraham religions is that people seem to be oblivious to the fact that they change. The synthesis of relgions and the fact that they allow change is makes much more sense, imho. [/b][/quote]
One of the things about god fearing religions like Islam and Judeo Christian faiths is the convienient selective memory and observation. THey'd have to be or else they'd freak out is they realized that back when people were aboreal hunter gatherers natures was the focus of worship.. Practically the only reason why Faiths like Christianity came about was to set guidlines and laws for people to follow to curb anarchy and chaos because with the development of effiicient farming people started "owning" things and you didn't want the old hunter gatherer ways,&nbsp; in which you didn't own anything and you were free to take/share anything you want.

[SunWuKong]

<!--QuoteBegin-yoMAMA+Jul 23 2003, 08:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (yoMAMA @ Jul 23 2003, 08:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There are minuses of course, such as the classist and sexist tendencies of Confucian thought. [/b][/quote]
not to mention isolationistic, and shuns new ideas and things while extolling the old.&nbsp; Confucian ideals really set China back centuries.&nbsp; or rather, it made China stand still and not progress for centuries.

[yoMAMA]

<!--QuoteBegin-SunWuKung+Jul 23 2003, 07:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Jul 23 2003, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> not to mention isolationistic, and shuns new ideas and things while extolling the old. Confucian ideals really set China back centuries. or rather, it made China stand still and not progress for centuries. [/b][/quote]
While, I have to offer a little dissent here:

disclaimer: it's not totally unbiased opinion, since my family is of Shandong descent, the birth place of Kong Zi, so I have to show my main man some love:

You can't say Confucianism was soley behind China's recent ills: Confucianism stresses EDUCATION above everything else, which is what makes Asian Americans succesful in this country.

China was isolationist because the Ming emepor Yongle decided against more expeditions overseas. China was the most advanced nation on earth at that time, so there was never really any need to 'explore', as compared to Europe at that time, which was poor, backward, and filled with disease such as the black death, and desperate for resources such as spice.

Anyways, I agree Confucianism needs reform, and needs to reform the classist and sexist elements of the beliefs.

However, Japan and South Korea are two of the most successful economies of Asia, and the world for that matter. And both nations, especially South Korea, are dominated by Confucian teachings.

Heck, in SK, they have the ceremony of Confucius every year, we don't even have that in China. or do we? I'm not so sure.

Just my 2 cents, sorry if it sounds like a bunch of ramblings&nbsp; :dance:

[Eros]

<!--QuoteBegin-Deadpool+Jul 23 2003, 09:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Deadpool @ Jul 23 2003, 09:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One of the things about god fearing religions like Islam and Judeo Christian faiths is the convienient selective memory and observation. THey'd have to be or else they'd freak out is they realized that back when people were aboreal hunter gatherers natures was the focus of worship.. Practically the only reason why Faiths like Christianity came about was to set guidlines and laws for people to follow to curb anarchy and chaos because with the development of effiicient farming people started "owning" things and you didn't want the old hunter gatherer ways, in which you didn't own anything and you were free to take/share anything you want.[/b][/quote]
One theory that I've been meaning to read into takes into account that most modern religions (including the asian ones) formed pretty much around the same time (aside from Judaism, but that was codified more around the the formation of modern religions, and hinduism, which I can't really talk much about).&nbsp; Anyway, the theory is that the older religions got so wrapped up in their past that they no longer addressed the problems of the modern people.&nbsp; Hence, throughout the Middle East and Asia, new religions were formed (or cults were embraced, same difference) that addressed the modern concerns of the people.&nbsp; This took place within a few centuries around the turn to the C.E..

The author of this theory, of course, points to our time as similar to the turn to CE in that the modern religions are not taking in modern concerns as well.&nbsp; This theory leads to her believing that there is slowly going to be major reformations and/or new religions coming to be.

Just thought I'd throw that out since we are talking about things along those lines.

[SunWuKong]

<!--QuoteBegin-yoMAMA+Jul 24 2003, 12:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (yoMAMA @ Jul 24 2003, 12:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> China was isolationist because the Ming emepor Yongle decided against more expeditions overseas. China was the most advanced nation on earth at that time, so there was never really any need to 'explore', as compared to Europe at that time, which was poor, backward, and filled with disease such as the black death, and desperate for resources such as spice. [/b][/quote]
he did so because he was pressured by Confucian scholars in his court.&nbsp; and the reason Europeans explored was because their continent was really cramped for space.&nbsp; they needed new land.

[airborneranger]

<!--QuoteBegin-SunWuKung+Jul 23 2003, 10:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Jul 23 2003, 10:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> he did so because he was pressured by Confucian scholars in his court. and the reason Europeans explored was because their continent was really cramped for space. they needed new land. [/b][/quote]
Can you provide us with the source of your information especially with the Europeans needing for more lands

[yoMAMA]

<!--QuoteBegin-airborneranger+Jul 26 2003, 11:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (airborneranger @ Jul 26 2003, 11:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Can you provide us with the source of your information especially with the Europeans needing for more lands [/b][/quote]
It's pretty simple:

Just take a look at the map of Europe(it's basically a big penisula), and take a look a the statistics on the European populations (especially the big colonial powers), who tend to be small, crowded and resource poor.

However, they made it rich by their overseas colonial empires.

[Chinese Tourist]

although obviously Confucianism does not involve the afterlife,&nbsp; (Confucius say.. lol j/k but Confucius said something like, why bother with the afterlife if you don't even know for sure what the dilly is, and your current life still needs quite a bit of work - something like that) I remember reading some translated Chinese texts that mentioned "the three ways are one", apparently referring to Buddhism, Daoism, and Confucianism.&nbsp; It still treated Confucianism as how to live in society though, whereas Buddhism and Daosim were "for those who had left the world".

[airborneranger]

<!--QuoteBegin-yoMAMA+Jul 27 2003, 10:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (yoMAMA @ Jul 27 2003, 10:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's pretty simple:
Just take a look at the map of Europe(it's basically a big penisula), and take a look a the statistics on the European populations (especially the big colonial powers), who tend to be small, crowded and resource poor.
However, they made it rich by their overseas colonial empires. [/b][/quote]
I am just curious whether land is the primary motivator
because I have never heard of it before about europeans
wanting to immigrate to the east or america

usually it is said europeans want cheaper oriental or can't get it in europe stuff
and to get them cheaper they decided to go direct to the source

[AliBabaIncorporated]

<!--QuoteBegin-yoMAMA+Jul 27 2003, 11:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (yoMAMA @ Jul 27 2003, 11:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> However, they made it rich by their overseas colonial empires. [/b][/quote]
Uh yeah, which really explains why Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finland with no colonies, and Germany and Japan with a very short colonial history, and the US and Ireland which were actually colonized by others, are rich, whereas Spain, Portugal, and Belgium with many overseas colonies are much poorer.

In fact most colonial nations provided services like education and infrastructure, building like railroads at considerable expense to their own homeland taxpayers, which in many cases exceeded the value of whatever resources they took out of the country. The main purpose of pursuing overseas colonies, was to expand the markets for manufacturers at home (e.g. the old fantasy about adding 2 inches to every shirttail in China). Spices, silk, and other luxury products may have been a motivation as well, but in reality most colonized nations were so poor and inefficient in manufacturing that the colonizing nation would have been better off producing whatever it got from them at home.

[yoMAMA]

<!--QuoteBegin-AliBabaIncorporated+Jul 27 2003, 10:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AliBabaIncorporated @ Jul 27 2003, 10:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Uh yeah, which really explains why Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finland with no colonies, and Germany and Japan with a very short colonial history, and the US and Ireland which were actually colonized by others, are rich, whereas Spain, Portugal, and Belgium with many overseas colonies are much poorer.

In fact most colonial nations provided services like education and infrastructure, building like railroads at considerable expense to their own homeland taxpayers, which in many cases exceeded the value of whatever resources they took out of the country. The main purpose of pursuing overseas colonies, was to expand the markets for manufacturers at home (e.g. the old fantasy about adding 2 inches to every shirttail in China). Spices, silk, and other luxury products may have been a motivation as well, but in reality most colonized nations were so poor and inefficient in manufacturing that the colonizing nation would have been better off producing whatever it got from them at home. [/b][/quote]
So, have&nbsp; you ever been to Spain?

Ever seen those big cathedrahls, with those golden interior decorations and all?

Ever wonder where those gold come from?

Spain?

No.

South America-The Inca and Maya empires.

[SunWuKong]

<!--QuoteBegin-airborneranger+Jul 27 2003, 03:39 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (airborneranger @ Jul 27 2003, 03:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Can you provide us with the source of your information especially with the Europeans needing for more lands [/b][/quote]
ok, needing more "land" was probably the wrong word.&nbsp; they needed more resources, ways to make money, etc.&nbsp; basically they were competing with each other and exhausting each other out.&nbsp; which was also why they were militarilly more advanced, because they were constantly fighting with each other.&nbsp; subsequently, since the military drives technology more often than not, they also became technologically more advanced.

and i'm too lazy to look up any sources.&nbsp; but basically this was what i learned in world history in high school.

[itchie]

Christianity's Golden Rule, "DO unto others .........", is a rehash of Confucius Silver Rule, worded in the negative; "DON'T do unto others............" Confucius predates Jesus Christ by about 500+ years. Please correct me if I"m wrong.

[didu]

Confucianism is basically a system of relationships between people
from different social classes. It was designed to keep the absolute
power in the hands of the tiny elite ruling class. On one hand, it provides
the justification for why a single person, namely the king or emperor is
almost unconditionally entitled to rule over his people. On the other hand, it
forbids the general public from questioning the authority and legitimacy
of their ruler -- no matter how incompetent the ruler is.

On the surface, Confucianism can be very enticing, as it advocates
good human natures such as honesty, loyalty, compassion, etc.
However, the core of the Confucian philosophy is all about taking the
political power from the general public and keeping it in the hands of
the elite class. It's almost totally against the concept of equality
between people. This is why Confucius has been regarded as a saint
for the last 2000 years by every single emperor of every single
Chinese dynasty.

The core of the Confucian philosophy is extremly poisonous, it helps
the ruling class to keep their power by making the general public meek.
Meek people do not question their rulers and therefore are weak. Weak
people only fight back when there is no other choice, this is why every
single Chinese dynasty in the last 2000 years all started with a wise
ruler and decades of prosperity but always ended by nation
wide famine and the uprisings of hungry peasants.

I'm not saying that everything about confucianism is bad -- on the
contrary, a lot of things in confucianism are worth keeping and reviving
in the current Chinese society, but people also have to see
confucianism as what it really is, and stop worshipping it as some kind
of ancient holy Chinese wisdom.

Confucius was just one ordinary guy who lived during the spring-fall and
warring nation period of pre-Han China. As a philosopher, he was not
that successful when he was alive. He travelled to most of the kingdoms
during his time and tried to sell his philosophy to the most powerful kings
without a single success -- because his philosophy of making people
meek was not suitable for the dog-in-dog environment that existed between
the kingdoms. His philosophy only became applicable to the rulers of China
after China was united -- which was after the priority of the ruler had changed
from defending his power from other foreign powers to defending his power
from his own people.

[ares]

COn the surface, Confucianism can be very enticing, as it advocates good human natures such as honesty, loyalty, compassion, etc. However, the core of the Confucian philosophy is all about taking the political power from the general public and keeping it in the hands of the elite class. It's almost totally against the concept of equality between people. This is why Confucius has been regarded as a saint for the last 2000 years by every single emperor of every single Chinese dynasty.

The core of the Confucian philosophy is extremly poisonous...

Sounds like you dislike Confucianism almost as much as me. :)

I imagine before Confucius became popular, China saw a great deal of war. I'm sure for many, all they wanted was peace and quiet. Stability didn't really come until someone decided he wanted to rule all of China, he wanted to dominate. Quite the right conditions for Confucius to become popular, wouldn't you say?

And here we are with strange things like guangxi, saving face (to save people from getting a whippin', this naturally came about), and xiao xin (have a small heart).

Stuff like cheating, greed, corruption, ethics are quite lacking in Chinese business and culture. We see why. It's too bad it'll be a while before it changes; it's been in the making for thousands of years.

[didu]

Sounds like you dislike Confucianism almost as much as me. :)

I imagine before Confucius became popular, China saw a great deal of war. I'm sure for many, all they wanted was peace and quiet. Stability didn't really come until someone decided he wanted to rule all of China, he wanted to dominate. Quite the right conditions for Confucius to become popular, wouldn't you say?

That's exactly what I said. Confucianism was created before China
was united. That's why Confucius was unable to sell his philosophy to
any of the powerful kingdoms he visited -- the reason is very simple:
it was completely suicidal to keep your own people meek in a world
where every kingdom was constanly trying to conquer each other.
Then after China was united, there was the illusion that no forces outside
China could be any threat to the rulers of China, hence Confuciaism was
adopted to keep the people meek so the rulers could hold on to their
powers. Then when the real threats came, the ruler of China had
absolutely no answer, and the majority of the people were just too
meek to fight back.

[ares]

I wasn't denying anything you were saying.

The people of China too might have also welcome Confucian thought. After a great deal of war, weren't they happy to see it over?

[colorred]

I remember someone stated that Confucius had a korean ancestry, because he mentioned that he was from the part of china close to korea. anyone heard the same thing before?

[SunWuKong]

I remember someone stated that Confucius had a korean ancestry, because he mentioned that he was from the part of china close to korea. anyone heard the same thing before?

no, never heard of that. i think Confucius was from what is now Shandong, which is a whole lot closer to the cradle of Chinese civilisation than to Korea.

[kyopojin]

I remember someone stated that Confucius had a korean ancestry, because he mentioned that he was from the part of china close to korea. anyone heard the same thing before?




LOL .... It's Koreans with surname Gong can trace their Chinese-ancestry to Shandong peninsula in China,ancient Dong-Yi is source of Koreans' multiple oigins.

Many modern day northern Han Chinese are Nomadic origin and Have Dong-Yi heritage,Koreans are closely genetically related to them.