san jose police kill knife-wielding woman

[bigwong235]

http://www.kron4.com/Global/story.asp?S=1359697

how come the article's different??

i just saw a news broadcast on this, and the boyfriend/husband living with her said it was just a vegetable peeler. the way it was explained was that the woman got locked out of her bedroom, and called the police. they told her there was nothing they could do for her. she tried to pry open the lock w/a vegetable peeler, got frustrated and went to a different room and sat down. a police officer knocks on the door and the boyfriend/husband opens it for him. he takes two steps in, sees her w/the "weapon" (said to be a cross between a knife and a cleaver) shouts, "hey, hey!" and shoots her. he said that she was raising her arm to throw it at him. she was standing across the room w/a counter inbetween them. her three and four year old sons were there too. neighbors say they heard no warning, no telling her to put the knife down.

:(


edit: she was vietnamese, and i'm not sure how well she could speak english. her boyfriend/husband had very stilting english when they were interviewing him.

[kasia]

anna guo.

[lethal]

<img src='http://kron.static.worldnow.com/images/1359697_BG1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

That looks like a very large knife shaped veggie peeler.

[Deadpool]

Cops with itchy trigger fingers. What else is new.
*sigh*
It seems like they are just looking for excuses to use there guns nowadays.

[kasia]

<!--QuoteBegin-lethalweapon+Jul 14 2003, 08:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lethalweapon @ Jul 14 2003, 08:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <img src='http://kron.static.worldnow.com/images/1359697_BG1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

That looks like a very large knife shaped veggie peeler. [/b][/quote]
even if it had been a butcher knife, he shouldn't have shot. she could have been preparing dinner or something.

[lethal]

Oh, I'm not saying the guy should have shot. He most certainly should not have shot her. I was just commenting on the picture. I've never seen such a device before.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

<!--QuoteBegin-bigwong235+Jul 14 2003, 11:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bigwong235 @ Jul 14 2003, 11:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> edit: she was vietnamese, and i'm not sure how well she could speak english. her boyfriend/husband had very stilting english when they were interviewing him. [/b][/quote]
If it was the same interview they showed on KTSF (it probably was, since they have an agreement with KRON to use a lot of their footage), that was her younger brother ... the guy in the picture up there is her boyfriend (also vietnamese).

Anyway not to excuse what the police did, but why is she calling them to open a locked door? That's a job for a locksmith. A locksmith is also less likely to be on edge from having been on duty all night, and then shoot you when he sees you waving a knife in the air (that's what KTSF's reporter said she was doing anyway, not just calmly preparing dinner or whatever.)

[DragonKnight]

<!--QuoteBegin-AliBabaIncorporated+Jul 14 2003, 09:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AliBabaIncorporated @ Jul 14 2003, 09:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anyway not to excuse what the police did, but why is she calling them to open a locked door? [/b][/quote]
Maybe she didn't know about locksmiths. Either way, the whole situation stinks. Glad I don't live in SJ. Then again, is LA any better when it comes to cops? <_<

[Faithless]

<!--QuoteBegin-Deadpool+Jul 14 2003, 08:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Deadpool @ Jul 14 2003, 08:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Cops with itchy trigger fingers. What else is new.
*sigh* [/b][/quote]
I would say so. There must have been some other way to subdue her.

[kasia]

he said that she was raising her arm to throw it at him.

you would think that he'd come up with a newer, better story than that. why would she raise her knife at him when she's in the same room with her infant kids and she was the one who called the cops to open the door?

i hope he gets discharged and is held liable for violation of her civil rights and for wrongful death. and maybe manslaughter.

[Chester]

I've got a friend on the force. At lunch, he mentioned the shooting.

What he said is that it was the family that called the cops because the woman was acting crazy and brandishing whatever that thing was. So it's not as if the cops just stumbled in, saw her, and shot her. Supposedly, the family called the police in because they couldn't handle her.

Still, it seemed gratuitous to shoot her. The way my friend explained it, if she were the only person in the home and was brandishing a weapon, the officer would have retreated and would have treated the situation as a "barricaded suspect" scenario. But she had children in there, so it's not like he could have walked out and called in a negotiator, leaving a couple of small kids with a woman brandishing a weapon who is possibly a homicidal loon. So he obviously needed to take some sort of action to detain her -- at that point, he's not only responsible for his own safety, but also for the safety of everyone else in that home.

I think it's possible that the situation could have been resolved in a way that didn't result in her death. But the explanation that she called cops in because she locked herself in a bedroom and then got killed by a policeman because she just happened to be holding a vegetable peeler -- that reeks of bullshit. It's literally too stupid to believe.

As for what actually happened and what could have happened -- I suppose it'll come out eventually. Till then, I wouldn't jump to either extreme conclusion.

[Rogmok]

any other news article links?

[lethal]

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/new...ews/6306426.htm (http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/6306426.htm)

Family questions killing of woman by S.J. officer

VICTIM'S ACTIONS AND INTENTIONS WERE MISUNDERSTOOD, THEY SAY

By Glennda Chui
Mercury News

The family of a 25-year-old woman who was shot and killed by San Jose police on Sunday night said they believe her death was unnecessary, the result of a misunderstanding.

Police went to the duplex on Taylor Street because someone reported a small child wandering alone outside. When officers arrived, the child was already inside, but they heard screaming from inside the home.

Family members said Monday, Cau Thi Tran was screaming in frustration because she had locked herself out of her bedroom. She had tried to use a vegetable peeler to pick the lock and was sitting in the kitchen, holding the peeler, when police walked in.

Police, however, contend Tran grabbed a 10-inch knife or cleaver and yelled at them to leave. This was not an option, they said, because it would have meant leaving her armed and alone in the house with her boyfriend, Dang Bui, and their two children, ages 3 and 4.

Police Sgt. Steve Dixon said that when officers tried to calm her down, she raised the weapon as if to throw it. Officer Chad Marshall, who has been on the police force four years, shot her once in the chest -- the second shooting by San Jose police in three days. She was pronounced dead at the scene.

Bui insisted that Tran had a peeler in her hand, not a knife. Although his girlfriend was prone to getting upset, he said, she always calmed down in a few minutes.

``They said, `Hey, hey.' They shoot right away,'' Bui said, sobbing as he walked the few steps from the front door to the kitchen, re-enacting the scene that he witnessed from a hallway where he stood with the children.

Tran's father, Kim Tran of San Jose, said his daughter came to the United States from Vietnam five years ago and did not speak English very well.

``I think between her and the police they misunderstood, that's what happened,'' said her father, who was not in the house at the time of the shooting. ``The police take action very fast. She never showed a sign to harm people. Sometimes she was out of control, she yelled, that's it. She would calm down right away.''

Marshall, who fired the shot, has been placed on administrative leave along with Tom Mun, the other officer at the scene. This is a routine step in shootings involving police officers, Davis said, and usually lasts about a week.

On Friday, officers critically wounded a man after he allegedly pointed a gun at them outside a 7-Eleven store on Curtner Avenue.

San Jose police have prided themselves on developing alternatives to using deadly force in cases like this, said Rob Davis, deputy chief for investigations. They include tasers that can stun people at distances of up to 21 feet, pepper spray and spongy bullets.

``I believe we're seeing results,'' he said. ``But all the less-than-lethal weapons in the world aren't going to help when you have someone who is intent on hurting somebody.''

However, these alternative weapons are expensive, and officers don't routinely carry them, said David Babineau, training manager for the police department. He said the goal is to get one of the less-lethal weapons into an officer's hands within 15 minutes when the situation warrants.

On Sunday night, officers arrived at Tran's duplex at 9:03 p.m., Dixon said. She was shot just three minutes later.

[lethal]

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c...15/BA136209.DTL (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/07/15/BA136209.DTL)

San Jose police checking out a report of a child walking in traffic ended up killing the child's mother after she allegedly advanced on officers with what police said appeared to be a cleaver but what the woman's brother said was a dull vegetable peeler.

Deputy Police Chief Rob Davis said an officer had shot Cau Thi Tran, 25, in her home Sunday night after she failed to respond to orders to drop the kitchen tool -- which he described as "threatening" -- and lifted it as if to throw it.

But family members said Tran had been gesturing angrily with the utensil, which they said was a vegetable peeler, before officers even arrived. They criticized the police decision to open fire, killing Tran in front of her two children, ages 4 and 3.

"I'm just very angry," said Bao Tran, the dead woman's brother. "It's not reasonable for the police to shoot her."

Police and family members agreed on most of the events immediately preceding Cau Tran's death.

Neighbors said Tran, who was living with her boyfriend in a duplex on East Taylor Street in downtown San Jose, had a history of erratic and sometimes angry behavior that had prompted police to visit her home several times, including last week.

One neighbor, who declined to give her name, said she had seen Tran earlier Sunday wandering confusedly in the neighborhood.

"I said, 'Go take care of your children. They need you. Go take care of your little babies,' " the neighbor said. "She just stood there like she didn't know what she was going to do."

The neighbor said Tran's boyfriend, Quang Bui, had taken her into their home and closed the blinds. Neighbors said they could hear screaming and banging coming from the home where the couple lived with Tran's two children, 4-year-old Tony Bui and 3-year-old Tommy Bui.

Bao Tran said his sister had not been taking her medication, which he said was for anxiety, and was angry Sunday because she had locked her keys in her room. She walked outside and tried to climb in a window to retrieve them and was unsuccessful, he said.

Tran said at least one of his sister's sons had apparently followed the mother outside. Residents said that the boy had wandered into busy East Taylor Street and that a neighbor had pulled him out of the street and carried him home.

Another neighbor called 911 to report the incident at about 9 p.m., police said. Officers Chad Marshall, a four-year veteran, and Tom Mun, who has been with the force two years, responded.

By the time police arrived, the boy was inside. The officers knocked on the door, and Bui told them to come in.

"The boyfriend said, 'She's crazy,' " said Bao Tran, who was not present for the shooting but said he had spoken with Bui afterward.

Bui took the two boys toward the small home's hallway as police entered, Tran said. He said his sister was in the kitchen, yelling and waving the utensil. As soon as police stepped inside and saw her, he said, they shot her.

"Just one second," Tran said. "They didn't talk with her or anything."

Tran said his sister's two children had seen their mother die. They are staying with friends.

Davis, who visited the home shortly after the shooting, said that he sympathized with the family, but that forensic evidence supported officers' version of events.

Police said that the officers had walked into the duplex at Bui's invitation and that Cau Tran had screamed at them to get out. Moving between Tran and her family, the officers tried to calm the woman down, Davis said, but she pulled what looked like a cleaver out of a drawer and brandished it at them.

Davis said the officers had warned Tran to drop the utensil, but she instead raised it over her head as if to throw it. Marshall fired one round at her, hitting her in the chest.

Davis said the case would be reviewed by his office, the district attorney, the grand jury and the city Office of the Independent Police Auditor. Both officers have been placed on administrative leave.

[AngryABCGirl]

Can't America train its damn cops to use nonlethal sedation methods instead of shooting at anything that moves, especially small women with small knives?

[AliBabaIncorporated]

<!--QuoteBegin-lethalweapon+Jul 14 2003, 11:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lethalweapon @ Jul 14 2003, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <img src='http://kron.static.worldnow.com/images/1359697_BG1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

That looks like a very large knife shaped veggie peeler. [/b][/quote]
Is that the actual knife that she was holding? I would imagine they would have taken it for evidence, so it probably isnt ...

Anyway, anyone who gets the SF Chron check out page A16. Cuz they have a photo of a completely different-looking knife there which police are saying was the weapon in question ... looks more like an undersized vegetable cleaver or something. (And if police think that knife is big, they obviously don't go in Chinese kitches much).

Oh yeah and normally people quote the length of a knife only by the blade, not including the handle. Yet cops are calling this a "ten inch knife" ... kinda like including the length of your ballsack when you say you have a "seven inch dick" ...

edit: the knife in question:

<img src='http://www.sfgate.com/chronicle/pictures/2003/07/16/ba_shooting.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
A San Jose police evidence box holds the item police say was in the hand of Cau Thi Tran when officers shot and killed her. Chronicle photo by Michael Maloney

[Chester]

<!--QuoteBegin-AliBabaIncorporated+Jul 16 2003, 01:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AliBabaIncorporated @ Jul 16 2003, 01:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh yeah and normally people quote the length of a knife only by the blade, not including the handle. Yet cops are calling this a "ten inch knife" ... kinda like including the length of your ballsack when you say you have a "seven inch dick" ...
[/b][/quote]
Yeah, and now we get into the they said/they said portion of the situation.

Jeez, if that's what she was threatening them with, it's a tragic situation.

Not to mitigate the loss, but that would've been a fucked up situation. From a distance, that would definitely look like a small cleaver. Especially if lighting conditions were dim and if she were waving the thing around.

If she made a move as if she were going to throw it, I frankly don't know what the officer should have done otherwise. I wouldn't ask a police officer to keep his gun holstered and tell him that he needs to first try to dodge flying blades before drawing and firing his weapon in defense.

[kasia]

<!--QuoteBegin-AliBabaIncorporated+Jul 16 2003, 01:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AliBabaIncorporated @ Jul 16 2003, 01:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is that the actual knife that she was holding? I would imagine they would have taken it for evidence, so it probably isnt ...
[/b][/quote]
good point. do you they they lack cultural sensitivity training? presumably white folks won't be using knives like that...but asian folks might.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

<!--QuoteBegin-kasia+Jul 16 2003, 06:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kasia @ Jul 16 2003, 06:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AliBabaIncorporated+Jul 16 2003, 01:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AliBabaIncorporated @ Jul 16 2003, 01:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is that the actual knife that she was holding? I would imagine they would have taken it for evidence, so it probably isnt ...
[/b][/quote]
good point. do you they they lack cultural sensitivity training? presumably white folks won't be using knives like that...but asian folks might. [/b][/quote]
possibly ... but if people plan to do any kind of publicity campaign regarding this case, that's probably not gonna be a very effective argument, compared to the other elements of the case (they weren't coming in to respond to criminal activity but a woman locked out of her room, yet another shooting of a mentally ill woman, etc.)

Can't see how sensitivity training would have helped much anyway. The cops were reacting on instinct. Considering how fast they acted, they probably wouldn't have had time to think back to one little obscure piece of information in some "diversity course" which told them "It's perfectly normal for Asian folk to have big knives." And instinct tells them to be afraid of big knives when they're in an enclosed space with not much room to dodge.

[rakovlam]

The object in her hand was a dao bao, a big ass knife used for peeling vegatables in Asian culture (but apparently not in our household, which uses an actual peeler).&nbsp; I'd freak too if I saw that up in the air.

[lethal]

<!--QuoteBegin-AliBabaIncorporated+Jul 16 2003, 05:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AliBabaIncorporated @ Jul 16 2003, 05:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is that the actual knife that she was holding? I would imagine they would have taken it for evidence, so it probably isnt ...
<img src='http://www.sfgate.com/chronicle/pictures/2003/07/16/ba_shooting.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> [/b][/quote]


I think that is the actual knife in question.&nbsp; San Jose police are under some pretty big pressure from the Vietnamese community there, so it looks like they are pulling out all the stops to justify their actions, including trying to show that the knife was large and not a harmless veggie peeler that some newpapers articles implied.

Assistant Santa Clara County District Attorney Karyn Sinunu said, although the investigation is still active, she took the unusual step of urging police to publicly display the knife because she thought accounts of what the woman had in her hand might unfairly shake public confidence in the police department.

"I got a substantial number of concerned calls," said Sinunu, who went to the shooting scene Sunday night as part of the district attorney's routine practice of independently reviewing officer-involved shootings. "I think people were visualizing a potato peeler."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...16/BA295113.DTL (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/07/16/BA295113.DTL)

If you read the articles in the San Jose Mercury News (which employs Vietnamese reporters, including those covering this case), the articles are much more sympathetic toward the victim and place the police in a bad light.&nbsp; http://www.bayarea.com

The SF Chronicle seems much more police friendly.&nbsp; http://www.sfgate.com

[kasia]

it's not like san jose has the most honest police department. one of the officers at the scene has a civil suit pending against him right now for adding alcohol to a negative blood test to try to use intoxication as a justification for using unreasonable force against a citizen.

if he went so far as to do that, why wouldn't he make up a story about her raising the knife?

one good thing is that this happened in a vietnamese enclave, so the family is receiving a lot of community support.&nbsp; the community wants an investigation.&nbsp; they want answers.&nbsp; and they want to know what steps the police are going to take to regain their trust.&nbsp; in anna's case - which took place in ventura - there wasn't nearly as much news coverage.&nbsp;

[Hanuman]

That's bad that the media (and a lot of people here) seem so ready to jump on the cops for this.&nbsp; Without realizing that they are doing it, they are weakening community relations with the police.&nbsp; How are police going to be more culturely aware if the asian community shuns them for fear that they are going to shoot first and ask questions later.&nbsp; The last thing you want is for people to fear police more then the actually criminals.

I know that if I was there and I saw this women waving this huge ass blade around I might not have made the right decision either.&nbsp; You're at a domestic, one of the scariest calls a cop has to make.&nbsp; A women is yelling at you in a language you don't understand, she's ignoring your commands to put the weapon down.&nbsp; Her own family says she's prone to fits of anger, and one tells the cops "she's crazy"!!!&nbsp; I also think it's bullshit that she was trying to get into a locked door with that peeler (think hard about it, look at the picture and tell me how you are going to jam that into a door jamb????)&nbsp; She probably got pissed off at the cops and picked up the nearest object.&nbsp; What if she really was gonna throw it?&nbsp; You're telling me it's the cops duty to duck and dodge, try to get closer while she's looking for more weapons, then try to subdue her as she's trying to slice you up (as far as you know that's her intent).&nbsp; No way.&nbsp; Open your eyes.

[kasia]

<!--QuoteBegin-Hanuman+Jul 19 2003, 05:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Hanuman @ Jul 19 2003, 05:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> She probably got pissed off at the cops and picked up the nearest object. What if she really was gonna throw it? You're telling me it's the cops duty to duck and dodge, try to get closer while she's looking for more weapons, then try to subdue her as she's trying to slice you up (as far as you know that's her intent). No way. Open your eyes. [/b][/quote]
You're making up facts. Even the cops aren't claiming that she picked up the peeler when she saw them. She was holding it when they walked in. There was no indication that she was looking for more weapons or that she was intent on hurting the cops or anyone else. Are you telling me that cops are permitted to speculate and act - using deadly force - on their speculation?

And it's not like the cops aren't getting a fair chance to tell their side of the story. We all know their side precisely because they were afforded the opportunity to justify to the public their decision to shoot. It just doesn't sound very believable.

Points to ponder:

1) The cops that shot her have a pending civil rights claim against them for falsifying a suspect's alchohol test to justify the fact that they beat him. They claimed that he was intoxicated when he really wasn't. Why, then, aren't they on administrative leave if there is evidence to show that they, at the very least, have poor judgment and are prone to violence?

2) You claim that their fear may, in part, be justified by the fact that she was yelling at them in a language that they don't understand. Is this reasonable? Or is this a result of pure bigotry? Should they have been less frightened if she was yelling at them in English? And if so, is this not a case of discrimination?

3) San Jose cops do not have the best history in dealing with its citizens. I remember a while back - while I was still in college - they were forced to undergo major cultural sensitivity training for beating up Southeast Asians who ran away from them when they saw them. Why did they run? Because they were refugees who, as a result of the fact that they came from a country with a highly oppressive government, were afraid of law enforcement officials. They were punished (e.g., had their asses kicked) for the very fact that they were refugees. Now you're trying to say that the woman should have been killed for the very fact that she could not yell in a language that the cops could understand?

What is a cop's duty? To serve his community? If so, and given that San Jose is largely made up of Southeast Asians, why aren't these cops provided training to allow them to adequately serve their community?

[nonamerasian]

<!--QuoteBegin-kasia+Jul 20 2003, 12:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kasia @ Jul 20 2003, 12:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) You claim that their fear may, in part, be justified by the fact that she was yelling at them in a language that they don't understand. Is this reasonable? Or is this a result of pure bigotry? Should they have been less frightened if she was yelling at them in English? And if so, is this not a case of discrimination?[/b][/quote]
Did a woman deserve to die because of her language of choice?

I doubt many people would answer in the affirmative.

However, I’m sure I’m not the only person here who has been screamed at in a language they don’t understand, although I may be one of the few who has had that happen to them while the unbalanced screamer was holding a sharp object pointed in their direction.

It’s scary.

Would the cops have been less frightened if she screamed in English?

Perhaps, but it’s according to what she would be screaming.&nbsp;

Again speaking from experience, for a moment I didn’t know if they guy was saying he was going to throw the knife between my eyes or if he wasn’t even addressing me at all.&nbsp;

No cultural diversity course could change the situation unless that course involves teaching the language in question, but without that, all one has to judge by is body language in that type of situation.

Before my situation was diffused, the flight portion of the fight or flight response was about it kick in.

Perhaps the cops had the opposite reaction and decided to fight.

To answer question #2, I see no reason to believe that their fear may be justified not only because she was holding a sharp object, but because she wasn’t speaking English and cementing this belief is personal experience.

It’s not bigotry.&nbsp; It’s rational.

I would like the situation to be investigated and I feel sorry for her family for having to go through what they do, however, blaming a natural human reaction of wanting to protect themselves on bigotry is what is truly irrational.

[kasia]

<!--QuoteBegin-nonamerasian+Jul 19 2003, 09:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nonamerasian @ Jul 19 2003, 09:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would like the situation to be investigated and I feel sorry for her family for having to go through what they do, however, blaming a natural human reaction of wanting to protect themselves on bigotry is what is truly irrational. [/b][/quote]
is it? you don't know what assumptions they made because she was asian.

what about the officers who shot kao because they believed that he knew kung-fu since he was asian. their decision was rational, sure, in that it was based on a rational decision process. but it was based on pure bigotry.

you should not compare a cop's reaction to your own. i expect a lot more out of cops than i would of an average citizen.

[nonamerasian]

<!--QuoteBegin-kasia+Jul 20 2003, 02:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kasia @ Jul 20 2003, 02:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->is it? you don't know what assumptions they made because she was asian.

what about the officers who shot kao because they believed that he knew kung-fu since he was asian. their decision was rational, sure, in that it was based on a rational decision process. but it was based on pure bigotry.

you should not compare a cop's reaction to your own. i expect a lot more out of cops than i would of an average citizen.[/b][/quote]
Without conclusive evidence pertaining to this case that says otherwise, yes it is.

Pure bigotry?

You truly believe if Tran was a Black woman screaming in Creole, an Asian screaming in Bangla, a White woman screaming in Yiddish, or a Latina screaming in Spanish in the same situation, that she wouldn’t have been treated the same?

You’re assuming that they made assumptions because she is Asian.

I believe it’s more probable to believe most if not all assumptions were based on seeing a person who has been described as “crazy” holding a sharp object while they were not able to deduce much else from the situation except by attempting to read her body language.

Yeah, they are cops, but they are also human.

(This isn’t exactly the Kao case.)

[kasia]

<!--QuoteBegin-nonamerasian+Jul 19 2003, 10:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nonamerasian @ Jul 19 2003, 10:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-kasia+Jul 20 2003, 02:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kasia @ Jul 20 2003, 02:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->is it? you don't know what assumptions they made because she was asian.

what about the officers who shot kao because they believed that he knew kung-fu since he was asian. their decision was rational, sure, in that it was based on a rational decision process. but it was also based on pure bigotry.

you should not compare a cop's reaction to your own. i expect a lot more out of cops than i would of an average citizen.[/b][/quote]
Without conclusive evidence pertaining to this case that says otherwise, yes it is.
[/b][/quote]
without conclusive evidence, no answers should be drawn.&nbsp; why are you saying that it is irrational if you dont know if it is or not?

Pure bigotry?

You truly believe if Tran was a Black woman screaming in Creole, an Asian screaming in Bangla, a White woman screaming in Yiddish, or a Latina screaming in Spanish in the same situation, that she wouldn’t have been treated the same?

of course not. different stereotypes attach to different ethnic groups. and i'm not assuming anything. i'm just saying it's a possibility.

I believe it’s more probable to believe most if not all assumptions were based on seeing a person who has been described as “crazy” holding a sharp object while they were not able to deduce much else from the situation except by attempting to read her body language.

and why would you assume that? because you think that the police would act as you would? or rather, as how you believe a rational person would? why are you assuming that this cop was rational? in case you missed my last posts, they're being tried for falsifying evidence in an attempt to cover up a beating of another individual. messing with a suspect's blood test to cover your own ass is rational? sure. fucked up? no doubt.

(This isn’t exactly the Kao case.)

do you think that all the facts were provided to the public from the day that kao was shot? do you think that the cops, at that time, didn't also try to justify their actions by saying that kao was holding a weapon and was going to throw it at them? the facts unfolded as a result of the work of the trial attorney on that case. we don't know if this is like the kao case or not.

[nonamerasian]

<!--QuoteBegin-kasia+Jul 20 2003, 02:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kasia @ Jul 20 2003, 02:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-nonamerasian+Jul 19 2003, 10:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nonamerasian @ Jul 19 2003, 10:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-kasia+Jul 20 2003, 02:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kasia @ Jul 20 2003, 02:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->is it? you don't know what assumptions they made because she was asian.

what about the officers who shot kao because they believed that he knew kung-fu since he was asian. their decision was rational, sure, in that it was based on a rational decision process. but it was also based on pure bigotry.

you should not compare a cop's reaction to your own. i expect a lot more out of cops than i would of an average citizen.[/b][/quote]
Without conclusive evidence pertaining to this case that says otherwise, yes it is.
[/b][/quote]
without conclusive evidence, no answers should be drawn. why are you saying that it is irrational if you dont know if it is or not?

Pure bigotry?

You truly believe if Tran was a Black woman screaming in Creole, an Asian screaming in Bangla, a White woman screaming in Yiddish, or a Latina screaming in Spanish in the same situation, that she wouldn’t have been treated the same?

of course not. different stereotypes attach to different ethnic groups. and i'm not assuming anything. i'm just saying it's a possibility.



and why would you assume that? because you think that the police would act as you would? or rather, as how you believe a rational person would? why are you assuming that this cop was rational? in case you missed my last posts, they're being tried for falsifying evidence in an attempt to cover up a beating of another individual. messing with a suspect's blood test to cover your own ass is rational? sure. fucked up? no doubt.



do you think that all the facts were provided to the public from the day that kao was shot? do you think that the cops, at that time, didn't also try to justify their actions by saying that kao was holding a weapon and was going to throw it at them? the facts unfolded as a result of the work of the trial attorney on that case. we don't know if this is like the kao case or not.[/b][/quote]
I said to blame a natural human reaction to protect one’s self on bigotry is irrational.

Neither of us knows the complete truth about the situation, however, without evidence saying otherwise, one has to look at what is probably the most logical explanation.

Would that be that the cops acted the way they did because here speaking a language they couldn’t understand, they were before Tran, a woman described as crazy, yielding a sharp object. . .Or was it because they are bigots who thought she was going to do kung-fu on them because they didn’t cover this situation in cultural sensitivity classes?

With what we have before us, I see the first scenario as the most likely motivation for the cops behaving the way they had.

Why do I believe that scenario over the other? Because I have not yet any reason not to as of yet.

If the cop were being tried for acting upon racial or ethnic stereotypes before the Tran situation, then I may be more inclined to take your position.&nbsp; But, that isn’t the case.

Yes, different stereotypes are attached to different groups.

Maybe the cop did believe in the martial art stereotype.&nbsp; Perhaps he went into shock because he felt she was breaking the placid Asian female stereotype.&nbsp; Or perhaps he reacted for the same reasons I did, which wasn’t racially connected in the least, but rather driven by the fear one gets in such a predicament where one’s safety seems to be in question.

You may be perfectly right.&nbsp; This situation may be relatable to the Kao case, however, until evidence comes forth supporting that scenario, I’ll continue to look at what most probably is the case.

[kasia]

<!--QuoteBegin-nonamerasian+Jul 19 2003, 11:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nonamerasian @ Jul 19 2003, 11:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I said to blame a natural human reaction to protect one’s self on bigotry is irrational.

Neither of us knows the complete truth about the situation, however, without evidence saying otherwise, one has to look at what is probably the most logical explanation.

Would that be that the cops acted the way they did because here speaking a language they couldn’t understand, they were before Tran, a woman described as crazy, yielding a sharp object. . .Or was it because they are bigots who thought she was going to do kung-fu on them because they didn’t cover this situation in cultural sensitivity classes?

With what we have before us, I see the first scenario as the most likely motivation for the cops behaving the way they had.

Why do I believe that scenario over the other? Because I have not yet any reason not to as of yet.

If the cop were being tried for acting upon racial or ethnic stereotypes before the Tran situation, then I may be more inclined to take your position. But, that isn’t the case.

Yes, different stereotypes are attached to different groups.

Maybe the cop did believe in the martial art stereotype. Perhaps he went into shock because he felt she was breaking the placid Asian female stereotype. Or perhaps he reacted for the same reasons I did, which wasn’t racially connected in the least, but rather driven by the fear one gets in such a predicament where one’s safety seems to be in question.

You may be perfectly right. This situation may be relatable to the Kao case, however, until evidence comes forth supporting that scenario, I’ll continue to look at what most probably is the case. [/b][/quote]
fair enough.&nbsp; and i think that what we view as the "likely scenario" or "most probable scenario" is colored by our own experiences.&nbsp; i guess we'll just have to wait for more facts to come out.&nbsp; but til then, i'll still be viewing the situation as supect.

[Hanuman]

I know I was exagerrating and that there was no evidence that anyone was throwing anything around or that she was looking for a weapon.&nbsp; I'm saying that it's not hard to see that she may have appeared to be acting unreasonable.

Her own family states that she was "acting crazy"&nbsp; this is what the cops were warned with going into the situation.&nbsp; Also, she shouldn't be penalized for speaking a foreign language at all, the point I was making was that she's running around yelling when cops are there pointing a gun at you.&nbsp; I know that if I'm in, say france and french cops come storming into the room yelling at me, whether I understand them or not, I'm gonna shut up and make it a point to move very, very slowly.

We're quick to judge, and although I wasn't there either, I'm not gonna be so quick to pass blame.&nbsp; Saying that the San Jose cops don't have a great record in dealing with domestic cases, or foreign speaking people, is just as biased as saying "that black guy definately was carrying, you know how black people are."&nbsp; Don't base all their actions on the actions of other people.

[Chester]

A few things:

1. I have never, ever heard a police officer say anything that would suggest that they're extra-paranoid around Asians because they're afraid of flying sidekicks or fireballs or whatever. The fact that they're cops doesn't automatically make them morons.

This doesn't mean that the officer involved didn't overreact. Possibly he did, but if he did, it was more likely due to the fact that there was an uncooperative woman holding what appeared to be a large knife -- the fact that she was Asian was most likely incidental.

2. San Jose's police department actually has a pretty good record, in my opinion. Compare SJPD to the police forces of other large cities. Compare SJPD's corruption/brutality record against departments like those in San Francisco, Oakland, Los Angeles, or New York.

[tommyhtown]

<!--QuoteBegin-Chester+Jul 21 2003, 05:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Chester @ Jul 21 2003, 05:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A few things:

1. I have never, ever heard a police officer say anything that would suggest that they're extra-paranoid around Asians because they're afraid of flying sidekicks or fireballs or whatever. The fact that they're cops doesn't automatically make them morons.

[/b][/quote]
I agreed that not all cops are moron but read this story

Rohnert Park police issued a press release stating that the cop felt threatened by a "martial arts" pose. And the Sonoma County District Attorney rushed to clear the cop who shot and killed Kuanchung.


Kuanchung Kao Story (http://www.modelminority.com/article383.html&mode=&order=0&thold=0)

[bluetrianglescott]

Cops pretty much everywhere have the right to kill if they feel "threatened". The other thing that comes into play is that cops have NO IDEA how to deal with emotionally distressed people. Here in NC they have killed over 15 people in the last three years who were suffering mental distress.

An org. I work with--the October 22nd Coalition to Stop Police Brutality--has worked with researchers to uncover the fact that in cases where cops shoot mentally distressed people, they fuck up the situation within the first two minutes of arriving on the scene. They tend to escalate rather than stabilize tense situations because they go in with their guns drawn, or use their pepper spray unneccessarily. This happens all the time and hundreds of people die every year.

If people want&nbsp; a good idea of the extent of this problem you should check out http://stolenlives.org/ which lists the names and stories of people killed by cops since 1990. One person referred to it as uncovering a mass grave.

[achtungbaby]

<!--QuoteBegin-bluetrianglescott+Jul 22 2003, 08:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bluetrianglescott @ Jul 22 2003, 08:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Cops pretty much everywhere have the right to kill if they feel "threatened". The other thing that comes into play is that cops have NO IDEA how to deal with emotionally distressed people. Here in NC they have killed over 15 people in the last three years who were suffering mental distress.

An org. I work with--the October 22nd Coalition to Stop Police Brutality--has worked with researchers to uncover the fact that in cases where cops shoot mentally distressed people, they fuck up the situation within the first two minutes of arriving on the scene. They tend to escalate rather than stabilize tense situations because they go in with their guns drawn, or use their pepper spray unneccessarily. This happens all the time and hundreds of people die every year.

If people want a good idea of the extent of this problem you should check out http://stolenlives.org/ which lists the names and stories of people killed by cops since 1990. One person referred to it as uncovering a mass grave. [/b][/quote]
Wow, where were you during the Anna Guo trial?:)

Cops untrained to deal with distressed people generally tend to screw things up because the normal rules for taking command of a situation and assuming authority suddenly don't apply.&nbsp; This is definitely a nationwide epidemic.&nbsp; Ventura County (where Anna was) police had lead the nation at one point in fatal shootings of mentally distressed individuals...

[achtungbaby]

Another add about cops being "threatened": I don't mean to be cynical about this, but something has to be done to prevent cops from constantly using this loophole of whenever they feel a smidget of danger, they suddenly become justified in using deadly force.&nbsp; In so many of these cases where cops have shot someone suicidal or distraught or who they "thought" was dangerous, the officers argued that they really had a fear for their life.&nbsp; I believe the officers who beat Rodney King said something similar too.

[Everglaze]

Generally, I think that's retarded. What's with cops and their itchy fingers? you can't even trust those who have sworn "to protect and to serve" anymore. I hate the cops and I hate the government.

[achtungbaby]

<!--QuoteBegin-Hanuman+Jul 20 2003, 03:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Hanuman @ Jul 20 2003, 03:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Saying that the San Jose cops don't have a great record in dealing with domestic cases, or foreign speaking people, is just as biased as saying "that black guy definately was carrying, you know how black people are." Don't base all their actions on the actions of other people. [/b][/quote]
I actually think there's a big difference here.&nbsp; It's one thing to presume something about an entire friggen race of people, something totally different to criticize a specific department and their specific policies -- which, as tax paying citizens who have an obvious stake in how officers mete out their justice (we don't want to be killed by them, for example), I think we have every right to question the manner in which officers protect and serve.

I guess I should clarify then and say I'm not criticizing cops in general, just those departments that haven't properly equipped their officers with how to deal with these situations.

[bluetrianglescott]

<!--QuoteBegin-achtungbaby+Jul 22 2003, 08:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (achtungbaby @ Jul 22 2003, 08:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Wow, where were you during the Anna Guo trial?:)

Cops untrained to deal with distressed people generally tend to screw things up because the normal rules for taking command of a situation and assuming authority suddenly don't apply. This is definitely a nationwide epidemic. Ventura County (where Anna was) police had lead the nation at one point in fatal shootings of mentally distressed individuals...[/b][/quote]
I just recently read about that--I'm here in Greensboro NC and we deal with exactly the same situation all the time--I know of two examples right here in my state, one of which is so frighteningly like Anna's that you could almost just switch the names--this kid from Cherokee, NC (he was Native American) named Charlie Bello was shot to death by cops because his mom had called 911 b/c Charlie was threatening suicide with a kitchen knife--she had calmed him down by the time the cops got there but when they showed up they kicked down the door with guns drawn. He grabbed the knife again and they shot him. This was in 2000.

Then last year a guy named Eric Barnes was holding a knife to his own throat when the cops came to "help"--the dispatcher had told the officers "looks like a case of 'suicide by cop'"--and they shot him from a distance of more than 20 feet.

Right now we are working on building a case for the family of a young Black man named Gil Barber who was murdered by a Guilford County sheriff's deputy in 2001 using the research I mentioned. This potentially is a groundbreaking, precedent-setting case on how police deal with mentally/emotionally distressed people. The research we are relying on is an article called "Unreasonable Seizures of Unreasonable People" by Suffolk University Law Professor Michael Avery. He is also president of the National Lawyer's Guild. He's the one who concluded, after looking at hundreds of cases, that cops fuck things up within the first two minutes of showing up on the scene of a mental distress case. If it would be any help I can try and send you an electronic copy of that article.

We have high hopes in Gil Barber's case but we gotta raise a lot of money to get expert witnesses and CSI's and such. And as usual, the victim's family is poor. Big surprise there.

Also you may want to see if there are people active with the October 22nd coalition--they are the only anti-brutality group I know of where the families play a central role in what the group does. I know they have active affiliates in LA and SF. But let me know if you want me to send you a copy of that article. we put together a conference with Prof. Avery in January that the parents of Gil Barber organized and led. He's quite good and has a deep knowlege of the issue.

[kasia]

they're still trying to raise funds to cover her funeral expenses.&nbsp;

[AngryABCGirl]

<!--QuoteBegin-kasia+Jul 30 2003, 04:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kasia @ Jul 30 2003, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> they're still trying to raise funds to cover her funeral expenses. [/b][/quote]
Anywhere we can donate?

[johnpvee]

FWD: San Jose Police Kill Vietnamese Mom Holding Peeler
http://www.geocities.com/apilegaloutreach/...ads/Cautran.htm (http://www.geocities.com/apilegaloutreach/Uploads/Cautran.htm)


Dear Friends:

I am asking for your assistance in helping to
raise awareness (and funds) to benefit the
children in a recent police shooting case.

Many of you may have already heard about the
killing of Ms. Cau Tran, a 25-year-old mother of
two, shot by San Jose police.&nbsp; The police had
responded to a call from a neighbor regarding
unsupervised children on the street, and ended up
killing Ms. Tran within seconds of
arrival, after seeing her holding a Vietnamese
vegetable peeler.


Keith Kamisugi has volunteered his time to put up
a website with more info at
www.tranmemorial.com.&nbsp; You can also download a
fact sheet and learn more about
getting involved at
www.geocities.com/APILegalOutreach (click on
Action Alerts).


This case has gotten limited attention outside of
the Santa Clara Vietnamese community.&nbsp; I'm asking
for folks to step up and show their support.&nbsp; The
family is also in desperate need of funds to help
defray the costs of the funeral.&nbsp; Please help
spread the word and make a donation if you are
able.


Thanks,
Victor Hwang
API Legal Outreach

Victor M. Hwang
www.geocities.com/APILegalOutreach

[yumpop]

fuckin racist cops. damn i hate cops. useless mofo!

[bluetrianglescott]

Don't know if you're familiar with the October 22nd Coalition--they are a wonderful national group that fights police brutality and actually relies on leadership from victims' families. They have an affiliate in SF, if that's not too far away (I'm in North Carolina, but I know several of the SF folks from national meetings and they are wonderful, caring and committed people.)

Here's their contact info from the Bay Area Progressive Directory:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (510) 464-4563&nbsp;&nbsp; The main website is http://www.october22.org/ . Hope this helps.

[kasia]

<!--QuoteBegin-AzNBuffGrL+Jul 30 2003, 11:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AzNBuffGrL @ Jul 30 2003, 11:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anywhere we can donate? [/b][/quote]
actually, yw has been asked to help with the publicity by an attorney at api legal outreach (up north).&nbsp; how many of you would be interested in helping out?&nbsp; i'm probably going to call him back next week.

[>:^|]

Autopsy finds mental illness
NO TRACE OF MEDICATION IN S.J. WOMAN SHOT BY POLICE
By Crystal Carreon
Mercury News, Sept. 17

Bich Cau Thi Tran, the woman killed in a controversial San Jose police shooting in July after allegedly threatening an officer with a vegetable peeler, had a ``clinical history of psychiatric illness with previous suicide attempt,'' according to coroner's reports obtained by the Mercury News on Wednesday.

The reports say an unused 30-pill bottle of Risperdal, prescribed in late February, was found inside Tran's bedroom. The drug is used to treat schizophrenia.

Tran was shot the night of July 13 by a police officer, who had gone with another officer to investigate a neighbor's report of a child wandering in the street. When they entered the kitchen, where they heard screaming, one of them said he immediately encountered Tran, screaming and waving what he thought was a cleaver. When she raised it as if to throw, he ordered her to drop it, he said; when she didn't, he shot her.

The officers reported that when they arrived at the house, Tran's boyfriend had told them she had been ``acting crazy'' all day and had not taken her medication. He later said he couldn't recall whether he had said anything about medication.

A complete toxicology test that tested for the presence of Risperdal, among several hundred other drugs, found nothing in Tran's bloodstream, said Dr. Gregory Schmunk, Santa Clara County's chief medical examiner, who performed the autopsy on Tran.

``She was supposedly on this medication,'' Schmunk said. ``We are confident that it was not present.''

When asked Wednesday night about the autopsy's findings, the victim's boyfriend, Dang Bui, said Tran showed no signs of mental illness. ``No, nothing,'' he said. ``She didn't have a doctor.''

Asked if Tran ever tried to commit suicide, he said, ``She didn't hurt herself.''

Felicita Vu Ngo, the attorney representing Tran's family, said she has not read the coroner's reports but based on what she has heard believes ``the coroner's report is skewed and is biased.''

She said her medical experts are reviewing the material and declined to respond to specific questions about the coroner's mention of mental illness, the suicide attempt or the Risperdal. Ngo said only that Bui told her Tran was taking medication to help her sleep.

The autopsy says Tran died of a gunshot wound to her chest, after a 9mm jacket hollow point bullet pierced her heart and aorta.

The family contends police didn't have to shoot the 100-pound woman, who was holding a dao bao, a vegetable peeler commonly used in Asian households.

In the days following the shooting, more than 100 members of the Asian-American community marched on City Hall, demanding justice for the slain 25-year-old mother of two, and the Santa Clara County District Attorney's Office took the unusual step of announcing an open grand jury on the case. The grand jury investigation is scheduled to begin in late October.

The FBI is also reviewing the shooting to see whether any civil rights abuses occurred during Tran's brief encounter with the police.

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/6799175.htm

[yangbahn50]

As somebody mentioned previously, this is like the Anna Guo case in San Gabriel Vallye of So. California. She was brandishing a knife, if I'm not mistaken, and was shot and fatally killed by police officers.

I see the same bullsh-t happening in this San Jose incident with the Vietnamese woman.

If this happened to a black person, the black community will start a riot. I think the police is taking Asian criminals less seriously.

[nonamerasian]

If this happened to a black person, the black community will start a riot.

Please don't pretend to know the "Black community."

[kasia]

Please don't pretend to know the "Black community."

from his perspective. i think it's a fair observation.

and it's something we respect about the Black community. just from my little work in activism, i've observed that the Black community is more cohesive than the Asian community and thus has an easier time taking a stand on a given issue.

[deez nuts]

Please don't pretend to know the "Black community."

he was probably giving an outsider's perspective like how some of the non-asians have done so here; you know relaying a perception.

[bluetrianglescott]

I think we have to strip this thing down to really understand it--it seems like people are coming at the situation from all kinds of angles and they kind of partially address the situation, or bring out important aspects like the role of race in the killing but I think it's important to try and get at some essentials.

One thing that I think is essential to for people who are protesting this killing to put out there is that there is absolutely no justifiable reason for a cop to kill a small emotionally distressed woman, "knife" or no knife. (Seriously--who was the "crazy" one in that situation?) Anyone can understand that and may even be drawn to speak out about that. Another important aspect of her killing is that it is rooted in a national epidemic of police violence against people who suffer from emotional distress. I'm copying a portion of an article below about a conference on exactly this subject put together by an organization I work with called the October 22nd Caolition to Stop Police Brutality. These types of incidents happen all too often-- I referred in an earlier posts to two or three similar incidents in my home state of North Carolina--and they are part of a larger epidemic of police killings and an EVEN LARGER pattern of unjustified use of force by the police all over the country. You can't ignore these facts in tyring to understand and change a situation in which armed cops repeatedly kill people who are in need of professional help.

Related to that pattern is the attempts to justify a killing once it's happened. All this bull about her not taking her medication is just an attempt to place the blame on her somehow and deflect attention from the fact that an officer did exactly the wrong thing in dealing with a person who needed help much more than she needed an armed assailant. (All this points back to the role of the police in our society, which I think is quite far from "protecting and serving" our interests--but that's a bigger discussion.)
And of course to ignore the role of race in the cop's making the decision to shoot would be foolish. Whether he thought she was gonna pull a "kung fu" move on him is like, well, whatever, maybe...In other words, arguing that that's what was going on is sort of beside the point. Whether a person of color's life is valued as highly as a white person's life in this country is less unclear. All you've gotta do is look at the statistics of people killed by police to figure that one out. And it's not that whites are NEVER killed by cops--just not as often.

Here is a portion of the article I mentioned:

http://www.agrnews.org/issues/211/localnews.html
Conference on police misconduct
held at A&T University

By Liz Allen

In his presentation Avery explained that since the 1980’s mental hospitals have downsized their patient care by half a million people, due to regulations made by then-President Reagan. Alternatives to mental hospitals were supposed to be developed so that the mentally ill could receive some type of health care, but “the second half of the project never actually happened” and the police became the only agency tracking people with no access to treatment. Avery asserts that the police should be well-trained in crisis prevention and intervention.

“The average police officer never has to fire his weapon except at a firing range. Shooting criminals is a rare occurrence, but dealing with mentally disturbed people is a frequent occurrence for police officers,” said Avery.

Seven percent of all police calls involve a mental health emergency, and a survey of police officers in Birmingham, Knoxville, and Memphis found that on average an officer responds to six calls a month relating to a mental disturbance. Therefore, officers must be trained and held accountable in how to deal with mentally disturbed people to avoid the unnecessary violence and loss of life families are currently experiencing when a loved one in need of medical attention is mishandled by the police.

Some good websites with info on this subject include http://www.october22.org , http://www.ncoct22.org , and http://stolenlives.org/

[yangbahn50]

Please don't pretend to know the "Black community."

Dude, don't tell me that I'm pretending to know the black community.

I said that many incidents like this where the victim is black, ends up in uproars.

Look bro, it doesn't have to be a shooting incident. You can see the Rodney King incident, where the blacks rioted because the white officers who hit King were acquitted.

This incident in San Jose ought to be protested. Some of you argue that cops of California aren't really racist towards Asians. I don't know, but I wasn't born in Cally. I can tell you that my sister was pulled over by a cop, and the cop yelled at her, for no f*cking reason. In Everett, WA or Honolulu, if a cop does that, that pig loses his or her job. Period.

Okay,..getting back on topic. I think there were other alternatives to disarm a female wielding a knife (i.e. pepper spray or K-9 dogs).

[kasia]

In Everett, WA or Honolulu, if a cop does that, that pig loses his or her job. Period.


can you elaborate on this? why do you think the cops there are better disciplined?

[yangbahn50]

KASIA:

Beucase when you're pulled over, the cops don't come up to your window (when pulled over) and start screaming at the top of their lungs as the cops (any cop..CHP, LAPD, Santa Monica PD...whatever in LA county) in So Cally do. Plus the majority of police officers in Hawaii are Asians...mainly Japanese-American sanseis or yosseis. In California, many officers are either white or hot-tempered latinos.

I haven't experience any officers "yelling" at me in Hawaii, so I can't comment on their officers. But in Wash. State, my friend called the police due to noise complaints. When the policmen arrived at his residence, he came out his apartment, and the policemen yelled "get your f-cking ass back in." BTW, my friend in Was. State is Korean. ANyhow....he filed a complaint, and those two officers were sh*t canned from the police department.

[Chester]

I said that many incidents like this where the victim is black, ends up in uproars.

Look bro, it doesn't have to be a shooting incident. You can see the Rodney King incident, where the blacks rioted because the white officers who hit King were acquitted.

And how often do such riots happen?

This incident in San Jose ought to be protested.

It was.

Some of you argue that cops of California aren't really racist towards Asians. I don't know, but I wasn't born in Cally. I can tell you that my sister was pulled over by a cop, and the cop yelled at her, for no f*cking reason.

Mm. So, obviously, that cop was typical of his department.

Okay,..getting back on topic. I think there were other alternatives to disarm a female wielding a knife (i.e. pepper spray or K-9 dogs).

Perhaps so. Any way you cut it, it's a tragic situation. However, you go into a strange house and have a woman with a history of mental illness confront you with something that may or may not be a knife/cleaver. Then you go and get into pepper spray range to disarm her.

Or, you back out of the house and leave a woman with a history of mental illness inside with two small children with her maybe or maybe not wielding a knife.

And then maybe you will have started on your way toward earning the right to use the term "pig" to label police officers.

Go ahead and question the police officer's actions. That's your right, but you sound as if you've jumped to conclusions roughly as quickly as he might have.

[yangbahn50]

Go ahead and question the police officer's actions. That's your right, but you sound as if you've jumped to conclusions roughly as quickly as he might have.

First of all, riots of the black community doesn't occur that often. However, blacks do protest a lot, especially when a black person is mistreated by police officers. Look at the Donovan incident that occurred last summer in Inglewood, Calif. I bet the black kid did grab the police officer's balls, yet, the slamming caused an uproar in the black community.

I didn't know that this San Jose incident was protested. I didn't even hear of this until I came to this forum. So this is why I said we should protest this kind of misbehavior on behalf of the San Jose Police dept.

[Chester]

First of all, riots of the black community doesn't occur that often. However, blacks do protest a lot, especially when a black person is mistreated by police officers. Look at the Donovan incident that occurred last summer in Inglewood, Calif. I bet the black kid did grab the police officer's balls, yet, the slamming caused an uproar in the black community.

Sure. But you said that blacks would riot over this situation when, obviously, actual riots are very few and far between.

I didn't know that this San Jose incident was protested. I didn't even hear of this until I came to this forum. So this is why I said we should protest this kind of misbehavior on behalf of the San Jose Police dept.

If you want an indication of what sort of story it was or to learn more details regarding the situation, check out the websites for the San Jose Mercury News and the San Francisco Chronicle. You ought to find plenty of stuff in their archives. It was/is a pretty significant local story.

[nonamerasian]

Dude, don't tell me that I'm pretending to know the black community.

I said that many incidents like this where the victim is black, ends up in uproars.

Look bro, it doesn't have to be a shooting incident. You can see the Rodney King incident, where the blacks rioted because the white officers who hit King were acquitted.

I'm a dudette.

Anyhow, many relatable alleged incidents have happened through the years in the "Black community." I was actually handed a pretty long list of such alleged incidents several years back.

All of these alleged incidents don't bring about a "Do the Right Thing."

Many go without generating much interest, unless there is a major media focus on the incident, muchless a riot.

Now, that's an insider's perception. :glare:

[yangbahn50]

Yeah but the black community tend to have a more cohesive political clout compared to the Asian-American community.

This is why police beatings toward black suspects are taken seriously.

Look at the Donovan case that occurred in Inglewood, Calif. last summer. The jury who deliberated on the officer's case, ended in a hung-jury.

Now, rather than throwing the case out of the court system, the Los Angeles DA Steve Cooley wants to re-try the officer in the beating incident.
Why? Because of the pressure from black activist groups...etc.

If there was a hung-jury for an Asian-American victim of police brutality, the court system wouldn't give a rat's ass about the victim. THe case would simply be dismissed.

[applehead]

Dude, don't tell me that I'm pretending to know the black community.

I said that many incidents like this where the victim is black, ends up in uproars.

Look bro, it doesn't have to be a shooting incident. You can see the Rodney King incident, where the blacks rioted because the white officers who hit King were acquitted.

This incident in San Jose ought to be protested. Some of you argue that cops of California aren't really racist towards Asians. I don't know, but I wasn't born in Cally. I can tell you that my sister was pulled over by a cop, and the cop yelled at her, for no f*cking reason. In Everett, WA or Honolulu, if a cop does that, that pig loses his or her job. Period.

Okay,..getting back on topic. I think there were other alternatives to disarm a female wielding a knife (i.e. pepper spray or K-9 dogs).


you keep making sweeping generalizations
but the examples you give, rather, the example
you give is a one time deal.

it happened to your friend ONCE.
it happened to your sister ONCE.

you should be a bit more open minded.

[yangbahn50]

you keep making sweeping generalizations
but the examples you give, rather, the example
you give is a one time deal.

it happened to your friend ONCE.
it happened to your sister ONCE.

you should be a bit more open minded.

Oh no. not another one of applehead's off the board opinions.

[g-boogie]

Look at the Donovan case that occurred in Inglewood, Calif. last summer. The jury who deliberated on the officer's case, ended in a hung-jury.

Now, rather than throwing the case out of the court system, the Los Angeles DA Steve Cooley wants to re-try the officer in the beating incident.
Why? Because of the pressure from black activist groups...etc.

If there was a hung-jury for an Asian-American victim of police brutality, the court system wouldn't give a rat's ass about the victim. THe case would simply be dismissed.

the court system wouldnt give a rat's ass about an asian victim? and why did the la da retry the donovan case? OOOH did you say it was because of the PRESSURE FROM THE BLACK ACTIVIST GROUP? was that right?

hmmmm... so it seems to me, from reading your other posts, that you think asians dont get a fair deal in the court system. so heres a suggestion... why dont you gather other people that share your views and start an ASIAN ACTIVIST GROUP and protest your little heart out until the da feels the pressure. be proactive. make a difference. go yangbahn!!!!

[applehead]

Oh no. not another one of applehead's off the board opinions.

may i ask,
what exactly was so off the board
about my opinion?

[kasia]

Oh no. not another one of applehead's off the board opinions.

well, apple makes a good point. i think you have a point also, but i think you can probably support it with more than just two instances.

what i don't agree with, though, is that we have an easier time than blacks in the courtroom.

[yangbahn50]

g-booger
the court system wouldnt give a rat's ass about an asian victim? and why did the la da retry the donovan case? OOOH did you say it was because of the PRESSURE FROM THE BLACK ACTIVIST GROUP? was that right?

hmmmm... so it seems to me, from reading your other posts, that you think asians dont get a fair deal in the court system. so heres a suggestion... why dont you gather other people that share your views and start an ASIAN ACTIVIST GROUP and protest your little heart out until the da feels the pressure. be proactive. make a difference. go yangbahn!!!!

Yes....exactly. This is why Donovan's case is being re-tried in court. Why? Because the black folks in Los Angeles are known to whine and gripe about any small "incident" that occurs between white anglo-saxon cops and a black suspect who loves to squeeze a cop's testicle.

Even a shooting incident comparable to either Anna Guo or the San Jose women in the black community would spark lots of protest.

The same can happen in the Asian-American community. But poeple like YOU are plain obstacles by placing your head down and being oblivious to what's happening to your fellow Asian brothers!

[g-boogie]

yangbahn50,

step AWAY from the keyboard and dont ever come back.

[kasia]

Why? Because the black folks in Los Angeles are known to whine and gripe about any small "incident" that occurs between white anglo-saxon cops and a black suspect who loves to squeeze a cop's testicle.


this is not whining and griping. it's standing up for what's right.

i've been deleting posts by various members that are pure attacks and don't speak to the topic.

[SunWuKong]

http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/6448424.htm

Hundreds mourn mom killed by cops
DONATIONS ALLOWED FAMILY TO BURY SAN JOSE WOMAN FROM VIETNAM
By Elise Banducci and Chau Doan
Mercury News

San Jose's Vietnamese community members turned out Saturday to mourn a woman not many of them knew but whose shooting death by a police officer galvanized them as few issues have.

Hundreds of local Vietnamese-Americans joined family and friends in laying 25-year-old Bich Cau Thi Tran to rest, even as questions persisted about whether her July 13 shooting was justified.

Regardless of the controversy, the focus at St. Patrick's Cathedral was on two little boys clothed in white.

Tran's sons, Tony, 4, and Tommy, 2, in the traditional Vietnamese mourning dress young children wear for their dead parents, alternately sat with their father and ran to greet friends, possibly too young to understand that they were saying goodbye to their mother forever.

``I'm here to support Bich Cau's family,'' said mourner Michelle Le. ``I hope the two kids will be able to go on with their lives a little more normally, but I know that won't be possible without their mother.''

Tran was killed in the kitchen of her East Taylor Street home by a single gunshot to the chest fired by a San Jose police officer.

The officer, who was responding to a 911 call about an unsupervised child in the street, thought Tran was brandishing a cleaver that turned out to be an Asian vegetable peeler with a six-inch blade.

Since then, police have reached out to an outraged Vietnamese community rallied by Tran's death.

The district attorney's office has called for open grand jury hearings into the shooting, a step not taken since 1996, and the FBI is looking into whether there were any civil rights abuses.

Before the funeral, peaceful protesters gathered at Tran's home to demand that authorities release more information about the shooting. Attorney Felicita Ngo said family members plan to file civil suits within a few weeks. San Jose police had no comment Saturday on the case.

At the funeral, Tran's loved ones remained focused on their loss. Devastated family members followed a white coffin into the church. They wept openly and spoke little.

``I really don't know much about the case,'' Hoang Thi Nguyen, Tran's mother, told a reporter in Vietnamese. Nguyen, who lives in Vietnam, was granted an emergency visa to the United States. ``I just heard that my daughter died and came here to attend her funeral.''

Tran's mother said that two days before her daughter's death, a bird flew in her house and died. She considers that an omen.

Nguyen's trip to the United States was financed by community donations.

Without funds to pay for a burial, Tran's family initially planned a cremation. But donations allowed the family to choose a plot in Oak Hill Memorial Park, where Tran's body could face toward Vietnam.

``I would like the community to continue helping my family through this situation,'' said Nguyen, who said she didn't know how long she would remain in the United States.

Tran's boyfriend and father of her two sons, Dang Bui, declined to talk to reporters and instead clung tightly to the two boys.

The children's smiling faces were a sunny contrast to the crowd's somber mood.

At the cemetery, the boys' moods turned dark. As their father knelt before the burial plot, they looked pensive, worried, and the younger one appeared to be afraid of the giant bulldozer shoveling dirt onto his mother's casket.

As well-wishers tried to comfort the boys, the older child offered his grieving father a drink of water and put a protective arm around the man.

The crowd eventually dispersed, but the father and sons remained at Tran's grave site, which mourners covered with flowers and topped with two small flags -- one the American flag, the other the red and yellow flag of the former Republic of Vietnam.

``The death of Bich Cau Thi Tran was a tragedy, but also a bell to remind our people, our community, that we need to be unified in the fight for justice,'' said Pham Huu Son, president of the Vietnamese-American Community of Northern California. ``Her spirit will last forever, to strengthen and empower the Vietnamese community.''

Bich Cau Thi Tran's family has established two funds, one for the children and one for funeral costs. Send donations payable to Bank of the West, PruneYard Towers Branch, 1999 S. Bascom Ave., Campbell, Calif. 95008. Indicate under memo, ``In memorial Cau Bich Tran.'' or ``For Tommy and Tony Bui.''

[Rogmok]

what the...
thats jacked up...

[kasia]

more info at this thread in the rant room:

http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=8238&highlight=jose+woman+killed

[SunWuKong]

threads have been merged.

this is some fucked up shit. makes me think twice about calling the cops.

[SunWuKong]

Then again, every criminal is highly likely to carry a gun so you can sort of understand their tendencies.

not really. there are plenty of criminals that don't carry guns.

[SunWuKong]

Are you kidding me? Unless you're talking about corporate crime then I think you're probably wrong on that one.

you don't need a gun to steal something.

[kimpossible]

At the cemetery, the boys' moods turned dark. As their father knelt before the burial plot, they looked pensive, worried, and the younger one appeared to be afraid of the giant bulldozer shoveling dirt onto his mother's casket.

As well-wishers tried to comfort the boys, the older child offered his grieving father a drink of water and put a protective arm around the man.

The crowd eventually dispersed, but the father and sons remained at Tran's grave site, which mourners covered with flowers and topped with two small flags -- one the American flag, the other the red and yellow flag of the former Republic of Vietnam.


:cry:

[kasia]

:cry:

yep. i hope this matter will be thoroughly investigated. two young boys lost their mother.

[>:^|]

No indictment for San Jose officer (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/gate/a/2003/10/30/sanjose1.DTL)

A Santa Clara County grand jury refused today (Oct. 30) to indict a San Jose police officer in connection with the July 13 shooting death of Cau Bich Tran, a 25-year-old mother of two.

The 18 grand jurors -- 11 women and seven men -- arrived at their decision after deliberating a bit more than two hours. The ruling came after seven days of testimony in a rare public grand jury hearing.

The brevity of the deliberations indicates that jurors strongly believed that Marshall acted properly, according to San Jose Police Officers' Association President Don DeMers.

"The amount of time that they deliberated reflected the fact that there wasn't much doubt on the part of the grand jury,'' DeMers said.

"We gave the grand jury the facts, we gave them the law and they did the rest," said Santa Clara County Deputy District Attorney Dan Nishigaya. "They were the ones to speak for the community. They made their decision and we respect it."

Dang Bui, Tran's boyfriend, who witnessed the killing, said he was disappointed with the decision. The family has already filed a civil claim against the city, and Asian legal activists are vowing to pursue the matter in federal court.

Police were called out to the Trans' home that night on a report of a child running unattended in the street. By the time they arrived, the child had returned to his home, where the officers said they could hear a woman screaming.

The death stemmed from a fast-moving confrontation in Tran's small apartment, during which she was holding a 10-inch Asian vegetable peeler, an instrument police officer Chad Marshall believed was a cleaver. While Marshall testified that he fired after Tran shook the blade at him and appeared ready to throw it, the boyfriend said she simply gesturing at a locked door and that police misunderstood her.

The shooting resulted in outrage throughout the Vietnamese community, which argued that the police department did not need to use such force on a woman who stood less than 5 feet tall and weighed 90 pounds.

The police department immediately began running radio ads expressing condolences for Tran's death on local Vietnamese language radio stations and called for the community to share their concerns with the department regarding the shooting.

Supporters of the woman's family today called upon the FBI to investigate the case. Tran's family has already filed an excessive force claim with the city and supporters are hoping federal authorities will begin an investigation into whether Tran's civil rights were violated.

"We're going to seek federal involvement in this case,'' Asian law Alliance Director Richard Konda said.

Konda was disappointed that the grand jury did not look closer for contradictions among the police officers that testified.

"I am very disappointed that the grand jury failed to look at all the discrepancies in the officers' testimony.'' Konda said.

Bay City News contributed to this report.

[kasia]

No indictment for San Jose officer (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/gate/a/2003/10/30/sanjose1.DTL)
"The amount of time that they deliberated reflected the fact that there wasn't much doubt on the part of the grand jury,'' DeMers said.

or it could mean that they didn't have a clue what was going on and just didn't care.

i wonder if there were any vietnamese on the panel.

[Chester]

or it could mean that they didn't have a clue what was going on and just didn't care.
I don't think there has been anything in the demeanor of the grand jury to indicate that.

[>:^|]

I heard that the D.A. did not request an indictment, and in such cases the grand jury will only rarely indict.

The thing that bothered me the most is that she reportedly was 4 feet 9 inches tall and weighed 98 pounds.

[achtungbaby]

I don't think there has been anything in the demeanor of the grand jury to indicate that.
you watched it?

[Chester]

you watched it?
No. Not quite so interested in the case to line up at the courthouse...or sit and watch it at all.

I meant that nothing in the reporting I've read or seen indicates a sense of apathy on the part of the grand jury. I haven't even seen the deceased's family point fingers at the jury. They seemed to focus on the district attorney.

[kasia]

No. Not quite so interested in the case to line up at the courthouse...or sit and watch it at all.

I meant that nothing in the reporting I've read or seen indicates a sense of apathy on the part of the grand jury. I haven't even seen the deceased's family point fingers at the jury. They seemed to focus on the district attorney.

typically, the grand jury is simply an arm of the district attorney. the reason is because only the district attorney has the opportunity to present his evidence and argument and the defense has no such opportunity at all. usually, the d.a. wants them to indict, and that is the result. here, the situation is weird b/c the d.a. - which closely works with the cops - may have ulterior motives.

there is as much evidence to indicate that the grand jury was clueless as there was to indicate that they were presented with convincing evidence not to indict. my point is that we don't know & the d.a. was dumb to publicly make such an assumption.

[kasia]

No. Not quite so interested in the case to line up at the courthouse...or sit and watch it at all.

I meant that nothing in the reporting I've read or seen indicates a sense of apathy on the part of the grand jury. I haven't even seen the deceased's family point fingers at the jury. They seemed to focus on the district attorney.

why were you talking about their demeanor then? odd that you can derive conclusions from their demeanor if you didn't at all observe them.

[kasia]

Police shooting in San Jose stirs Vietnamese into action
For many, woman's death proves a springboard for getting involved

Cicero A. Estrella, Chronicle Staff Writer Monday, December 29, 2003

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Arthur Bao left the high-tech field earlier this year and was content playing "Mr. Mom" to newborn son Dylan and stepson Ryan, 10.

Everything changed on July 13.

Bao, like many members of San Jose's Vietnamese American community, was profoundly touched by the shooting death of Cau Bich Tran by a San Jose police officer. Bao's initial reaction that day was shock, then anger. Now, five months later, he wants to change the system by running for public office.

"The bottom line is, I want to work with the community," said Bao, 35.

Tran's death and a grand jury's refusal to indict Officer Chad Marshall galvanized the area's Vietnamese Americans to action like nothing else in their nearly 30-year history in San Jose. At the same time, among some, it has revived a mistrust of police and authority figures that was born of fear caused by Vietnam's communist government.

"People are afraid to call the police," said Bao. "They're nervous and distrustful."

San Jose is home to about 85,000 Vietnamese Americans, according to the 2000 census, the largest concentration inany city outside Vietnam. Now the once silent community is making its presence known.

Many community members marched to City Hall, attended the Santa Clara County grand jury hearings in October in large numbers and continue to call for dialogue with Mayor Ron Gonzales, the city council and the police department.

"Sociologically, this is a triggering event for the Bay Area (Vietnamese American) community," said Hien Duc Do, professor of Asian American Studies at San Jose State. "It's one of those events that has mobilized people and solidified their sense of wanting to work together to create a more just society. They realize in some way that this is their community, not just somebody else's. There's a claim that takes place."

Tran, 25, was killed after a neighbor called the police over concerns about Tran's toddler son playing unsupervised outside their apartment. A second call complained about a possible argument between Tran and her boyfriend, Dang Bui.

By the time the police arrived, her two sons were inside the apartment. Marshall entered the building and saw Tran, standing in the kitchen about 7 feet to his right with a kitchen utensil in her hand. Marshall later testified that he thought she was waving a cleaver at him and that he twice instructed her to drop it. He estimated that he shot Tran within five to seven seconds of entering the apartment.

The utensil turned out to be a dao bao, a vegetable peeler commonly used throughout Asia, which has a wooden handle and 6-inch metal extension.

Three days later, more than 300 protestors participated in a hastily arranged march from the apartment to City Hall.

Other marches and a candlelight vigil would follow, with a cross section of young and old Vietnamese Americans among those participating.

"With this case, we sent a message to the city government that we are not a community to be neglected," said Madison Nguyen, governing board member of the Franklin-McKinley School District.

"We're not a small community, but in the past we've been perceived as silent people, very peaceful and cooperative. But when something is unjust, we voice our opinion." Nguyen, Northern California's first elected Vietnamese American official, helped organize the initial protest.

Bryan Cong Do (persons interviewed for this article are unrelated unless noted), 29, says his father, Chan Do, was always quick to attend anti- communist rallies. But the younger Do, whose political activities had not extended beyond voting, did not feel as passionate about the issue. He arrived in San Jose from Vietnam as a refugee in 1983. Most of what he knows about communism was learned second-hand from stories and books.

Since the Tran case, however, Bryan Cong Do has joined a number of Vietnamese American associations and has been assisting Bao in a possible campaign for a school board seat on the Eastside Union High School District, San Jose's largest.

Do has also attended some of the same events as Huy Tran, a 20-year-old political science major and president of San Jose State's Vietnamese Students Association.

Trang Do, 60 and president of the Association of Former Vietnamese Political Prisoners, has attended them all -- from the candlelight vigil that drew 600 people to each of the grand jury proceedings.

"The blood of a fellow countryman has been shed," Trang Do said through an interpreter. "It's a natural reaction. The reason I've become so involved is it's such a senseless killing."

Many echo his sentiments. Community members continue to question why Marshall shot so quickly. Instead of going for his gun, they wonder whether alternative means could have disarmed a woman who weighed 98 pounds and stood 4 foot 9, a foot shorter than Marshall.

They don't accept that a dao bao was mistaken for a cleaver. They ask why paramedics were not allowed to enter the scene for six minutes. They're galled that Tran was initially referred to as the "suspect" and that her history of emotional problems was revealed.

The result of October's grand jury proceedings, which were open to the public, made things worse. Marshall was cleared, and the community felt wronged for a second time.

Tran's family has filed a wrongful death suit against the police department, which a lawyer with the Asian Law Alliance says could drag on and might not get into court for a couple of years.

"I was hurt by her death, but (with the grand jury's decision) I felt like I was wounded twice," said Tam Nguyen, 47, lawyer and publisher of the Saigon USA newspaper.

"The way they handled it was the worst part. Their position was nothing wrong was done. That's what really scares people."

Julie Nguyen, a 23-year-old San Jose State liberal studies major, did not participate in any protests, but the closer she followed the case, the angrier and more frustrated she became. She plans to participate in any future protests.

Nguyen, who is about the same size as Tran, suddenly feels vulnerable in the city that has been home since she left Vietnam 12 years ago. In case of emergency, she says she would now hesitate to dial 911.

The shooting has "affected me, it's affected my mom," she said. "She doesn't speak English well. What would happen to her?"

Oanh Thai, 50, owner of an appliance store next door to the apartment where the shooting occurred, said through an interpreter that Tran often visited to chit-chat about her kids and everyday things. They came to know each other well during the three months that Tran lived at the apartment.

Thai said her dealings with San Jose police had always been positive. She met officers through school anti-drug programs in which her children participated.

The harassment by Vietnamese police following the fall of Saigon in 1975 seemed to be distant memories for Thai. Her husband, who served in the South Vietnamese Army, was incarcerated by the communist government. Thai received constant threats that she, too, would be jailed.

Suddenly, Thai says those memories are again fresh, and she is wary of calling for police assistance.

"The function of the police is very important, but they've lost the trust of the community," she said through an interpreter. "They need to do something to regain that trust."

Cecile Pham-Nguyen, a civilian working for the police department's Crime Prevention Unit, says the department is taking steps to bridge the gap. She and her partner, Officer James Le, do outreach programs with the community. They host a radio program in Vietnamese, give presentations to the community and recruit.

"I understand (the community's) points," said Pham-Nguyen, who grew up in San Jose. "Part of my job is to connect the communities together."

The department's Citizen Academy graduated its first all-Vietnamese American class in October. The academy, in existence for 10 years, is a 13- week course (one night a week) that teaches citizens about police work.

Activities include driving a squad car, firing shotguns and pistols at a shooting range and acting out crime scenarios, with the citizens taking the role of the police and the police playing the suspects.

Xuong Ly and his wife, Cindy, enrolled in the first Vietnamese American class partly because of Tran's death. Xuong Ly, an engineer with Cisco Systems, says he now better understands the job's challenges.

"In Vietnam, the police were granted too much power," he said. "In the back of my mind, I still think that the government and even courts are lenient toward the police. It's difficult to get rid of those images, but after taking the classes I understand the police have their own difficulties."

Le, a 10-year veteran who has worked patrol and vice, says the force employs 32 Vietnamese Americans, including 30 who speak the language. The department has more than 1,400 officers.

The Coalition for Justice and Accountability is asking the city to hire more officers from different backgrounds, including Vietnamese Americans, to better reflect San Jose's diversity. The coalition, which formed after Tran's death, is forwarding a list of demands to the mayor and City Council. Its recommendations include changes to police procedures and grand jury hearings and the reassignment of Marshall to a desk job.

Council member Cindy Chavez, who represents District 3 where Tran was shot, welcomes the input.

"Within businesses and nonprofits, the Vietnamese community's rise has been meteoric," she said. "Involvement in the political realm is the next normal step. ... I am terribly sorry for the tragedy, but if it allows more folks to enter public service -- whether it's with the police department, fire department or as an elected official -- than something positive would have come from it."

E-mail Cicero A. Estrella at cestrella@sfchronicle.com

[Chester]

why were you talking about their demeanor then? odd that you can derive conclusions from their demeanor if you didn't at all observe them.
I never said that I derived any conclusions about the jury...I said that I had a lack of conclusions -- which included a lack of the sense that they were being apathetic. I read nothing in the coverage that implied or stated that the jury was apathetic about the case.

[kasia]

I never said that I derived any conclusions about the jury...I said that I had a lack of conclusions -- which included a lack of the sense that they were being apathetic. I read nothing in the coverage that implied or stated that the jury was apathetic about the case.

fair enough. i was just responding to this:

I don't think there has been anything in the demeanor of the grand jury to indicate that.

i thought it was strange that you could comment on their demeanor given the fact that you didn't observe the hearing.

[Chester]

i thought it was strange that you could comment on their demeanor given the fact that you didn't observe the hearing.
Not strange given that I qualified that my impression was based on all the news coverage I've seen. To clarify again: nothing in the coverage that I saw indicated that the jury was apathetic about the case or the duty they had been charged with. And, as a side note, all coverage I saw portrayed the officer as someone who was absolutely non-cavalier about what had happened and, regardless of the outcome of his trial, someone who had been deeply affected by the tragedy.

To get more general, I think it's good that this tragedy has sparked a political awakening in the local Vietnamese community. I hope that this all results in greater dialog between the community and SJPD. It's my feeling that the officer responded in accordance with his training and that all the gray areas in the case warranted the lack of his indictment. However, it's clear that SJPD needs to re-evaluate their training procedures so that their officers can better deal with these types of situations -- both situations in which an officer is dealing with someone who may or may not understand English and situations in which an officer may or may not be dealing with someone who is mentally ill.

Conversely, I think there's a role for Vietnamese community advocates to fill: to help the community understand that this isn't pre- or post-war Vietnam and that one ought not make the assumption that all encounters with police are adversarial in nature.

On a personal note, my maternal grandmother once was living with us in Santa Clara. She's a headstrong woman and pretty much does as she sees fit. One day, she wandered down the block with a knife to make clippings from a neighbor's bush as she was under the impression that it could be used medicinally. Naturally, the neighbor wasn't too happy with this and called the police.

I don't know precisely what happened when the officer showed up. All I know is that he brought my A-Ma home and gave me a stern warning about not letting her wander the neighborhood with a knife.

Thankfully, that incident didn't become anything major. But I think it's important for people to keep in mind that there have probably been innumerable incidents such as my grandmothers that counterbalance the tragedy of Cau Bich Tran.

[kasia]

Not strange given that I qualified that my impression was based on all the news coverage I've seen. To clarify again: nothing in the coverage that I saw indicated that the jury was apathetic about the case or the duty they had been charged with. And, as a side note, all coverage I saw portrayed the officer as someone who was absolutely non-cavalier about what had happened and, regardless of the outcome of his trial, someone who had been deeply affected by the tragedy.

To get more general, I think it's good that this tragedy has sparked a political awakening in the local Vietnamese community. I hope that this all results in greater dialog between the community and SJPD. It's my feeling that the officer responded in accordance with his training and that all the gray areas in the case warranted the lack of his indictment. However, it's clear that SJPD needs to re-evaluate their training procedures so that their officers can better deal with these types of situations -- both situations in which an officer is dealing with someone who may or may not understand English and situations in which an officer may or may not be dealing with someone who is mentally ill.

Conversely, I think there's a role for Vietnamese community advocates to fill: to help the community understand that this isn't pre- or post-war Vietnam and that one ought not make the assumption that all encounters with police are adversarial in nature.

On a personal note, my maternal grandmother once was living with us in Santa Clara. She's a headstrong woman and pretty much does as she sees fit. One day, she wandered down the block with a knife to make clippings from a neighbor's bush as she was under the impression that it could be used medicinally. Naturally, the neighbor wasn't too happy with this and called the police.

I don't know precisely what happened when the officer showed up. All I know is that he brought my A-Ma home and gave me a stern warning about not letting her wander the neighborhood with a knife.

Thankfully, that incident didn't become anything major. But I think it's important for people to keep in mind that there have probably been innumerable incidents such as my grandmothers that counterbalance the tragedy of Cau Bich Tran.

geez, that was pretty harsh on the neighbor's part. they could've just rang your doorbell to notify you guys or something. why bring the police into it?

thanks for your input. i know you're up north, but are you vietnamese?

[Chester]

geez, that was pretty harsh on the neighbor's part. they could've just rang your doorbell to notify you guys or something. why bring the police into it?
Because she had a knife. Granted, I know my grandmother wouldn't have attacked anyone, but they couldn't have known that. They were neighbors down the block and our families didn't know one another.

It's in situations like these that the police are supposed to respond...it's their responsibility to parse out the dangerous situations from the mundane ones.
i know you're up north, but are you vietnamese?
Nope, Chinese you goof -- it's in my profile.

[kasia]

Because she had a knife. Granted, I know my grandmother wouldn't have attacked anyone, but they couldn't have known that. They were neighbors down the block and our families didn't know one another.


maybe it's the neighborhood i'm from or something. we never call the police on one another. knife or no knife. but then again, we all know each other.

[Chester]

maybe it's the neighborhood i'm from or something. we never call the police on one another. knife or no knife. but then again, we all know each other.
Well, that goes a long way. We were in a new subdivision that was only something like four or five years old. I'm sure, if they knew my grandmother, they would have talked to either her or knocked on our door first. But I can't blame someone for calling in the police given even a sliver of uncertainty.

[Chester]

By the way...Teresa Guerrero-Daley, who is San Jose's Independent Police Auditor(and who has urged greater and more involved independent auditor oversight in such cases (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/2003/11/26/news/local/7391973.htm)), is running for Superior Court Judge.

She's having a fundraiser for her campaign on January 8th at the Fairmont San Jose, from 5:30-8:00PM. If anyone's interested, let me know and I can send you more details.

Her site:
http://www.teresaguerrero-daley4judge.com/

[xdlin22]

some cops are just fucked up