The LA Riots, Revisited

[kasia]

Originally posted by coagulated fat@Jul 6 2003, 08:48 PM
I agree with you kasia and my name is when you say that whites are the majority in US society, hold the most power, and etc. But I still have a serious problem with the mentality that whites hold all the responsibility for the currently existing racism towards AAs. I don't agree that white society and American society are the same thing, even though they obviously overlap a great deal. Would you say that all racism that AAs have against other ethnic groups is the fault of whites as well? Surely to some extent it is; we live in a country where whites control many of the media images of different races. But I don't believe that minorities are always innocent bystanders in white people’s quest to perpetuate racial stereotypes. Many minorities revel in these stereotypes, often our parents, relatives, and even friends. Asians stereotype the Asian races – Korean girls are a prime example of a group of Asians stereotyped by other Asians. Not acknowledging that this is a problem of our society and not a problem of a race of people (whites) is to miss the point. Whites may be in the majority, but the percentage of racist people seems in my experience to be more or less the same across color lines. 

I think it essentially comes down to a name game, do you want to call this racist force white or American. By calling it white, you insist on demonizing white people and fail to see that many minorities aren't exactly fighting negative stereotypes of races outside, of course, their own. Tying a specific race to the idea of racism may have made sense a long time ago, but now it seems a little, well… racist.
i think it should be first made clear that when i use the term 'whites' in this context, i am not saying that any of these attitudes and beliefs are inherent in the white race. rather, it is simply the case that they are the hegemonic power - not only politically but culturally and socially - and some attitudes and beliefs, as well as actions, are shaped by the fact that they want to remain in this dominant position. which group wouldn't? if any other group were in their position, such as chinese, i do not doubt that the same state of affairs may result.

that being said, yes - i do think that the whites, holding this hegemonic position, are responsible for some of the attitudes that minorities may hold against each other. for example, it is no surprise that the l.a. riots were korean v. black. or that many hold the misconception that *asians*, not whites, are the majority in our country's colleges and universities. we as asians have been used as a racial scapegoat to deflect from the rightful blame that should be placed on the majority. the reason why many asians turn their backs on the model minority myth is because they're tired of being used as the racial bourgeosie.

as for racist attitudes that asians hold toward one another or toward other races, some of these attitudes may be shaped by the white society (check out hollywood). some of the ignorance may also be formed within the minority groups. still, however much i disapprove of any sort of racism, i don't think it is as harmful as racism held by those with political, cultural, and social power.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by kasia@Jul 7 2003, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by coagulated fat@Jul 6 2003, 08:48 PM
I agree with you kasia and my name is when you say that whites are the majority in US society, hold the most power, and etc. But I still have a serious problem with the mentality that whites hold all the responsibility for the currently existing racism towards AAs. I don't agree that white society and American society are the same thing, even though they obviously overlap a great deal. Would you say that all racism that AAs have against other ethnic groups is the fault of whites as well? Surely to some extent it is; we live in a country where whites control many of the media images of different races. But I don't believe that minorities are always innocent bystanders in white people’s quest to perpetuate racial stereotypes. Many minorities revel in these stereotypes, often our parents, relatives, and even friends. Asians stereotype the Asian races – Korean girls are a prime example of a group of Asians stereotyped by other Asians. Not acknowledging that this is a problem of our society and not a problem of a race of people (whites) is to miss the point. Whites may be in the majority, but the percentage of racist people seems in my experience to be more or less the same across color lines.

I think it essentially comes down to a name game, do you want to call this racist force white or American. By calling it white, you insist on demonizing white people and fail to see that many minorities aren't exactly fighting negative stereotypes of races outside, of course, their own. Tying a specific race to the idea of racism may have made sense a long time ago, but now it seems a little, well… racist.
i think it should be first made clear that when i use the term 'whites' in this context, i am not saying that any of these attitudes and beliefs are inherent in the white race. rather, it is simply the case that they are the hegemonic power - not only politically but culturally and socially - and some attitudes and beliefs, as well as actions, are shaped by the fact that they want to remain in this dominant position. which group wouldn't? if any other group were in their position, such as chinese, i do not doubt that the same state of affairs may result.

that being said, yes - i do think that the whites, holding this hegemonic position, are responsible for some of the attitudes that minorities may hold against each other. for example, it is no surprise that the l.a. riots were korean v. black. or that many hold the misconception that *asians*, not whites, are the majority in our country's colleges and universities. we as asians have been used as a racial scapegoat to deflect from the rightful blame that should be placed on the majority. the reason why many asians turn their backs on the model minority myth is because they're tired of being used as the racial bourgeosie.

as for racist attitudes that asians hold toward one another or toward other races, some of these attitudes may be shaped by the white society (check out hollywood). some of the ignorance may also be formed within the minority groups. still, however much i disapprove of any sort of racism, i don't think it is as harmful as racism held by those with political, cultural, and social power.
Thank you for at least distinguishing between WHITES, and some of the white people in our government, which even I agree are racist, starting with our "president".

I however think that most of the racism from Asians against each other and other minority groups stems from within, not from thoughts implanted in them by whites.

The LA riots were Koreans vs Blacks because the angry black mob trashed Koreatown and their own homes, because it would have been a real pain in the ass for them to walk all the way to beverly hills or orange county to start tearing shit up.

Then, Koreans having their shit all torn up naturally would have a dislike for blacks, as it was mostly blacks that was tearing their shit up.


Also, is it true that Asians are really the majority in colleges and universities? I lived in one of the most diverse areas, and Asians only made up 14 percent of my school. I know that Asians are more represented by proportion than any other race, but if you are going by sheer headcount, I think whites are still in the majority of college students. Correct me if I am wrong tho.

[kasia]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 6 2003, 11:59 PM
The LA riots were Koreans vs Blacks because the angry black mob trashed Koreatown and their own homes, because it would have been a real pain in the ass for them to walk all the way to beverly hills or orange county to start tearing shit up.

is that right? you really should tell that to the korean shopowners who to this day are bitter with the lapd for blocking off beverly hills and other white neighborhoods and leaving koreatown vulnerable to the looting.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by Green_Circle@Jul 7 2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Green_Circle@Jul 7 2003, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Jul 6 2003, 07:09 PM
that argument has always bothered me...so maybe you can explain. what difference does it make when minorities, collectively, outnumber the majority? it's not like we're one homogenous group. and it's hardly like our communities work together.

i know it's a collateral point, but it's not the first time i've heard it and i'm wondering what the rationale is behind it.
Good point. I read the articles splashed across the newspaper proclaiming that whites are becoming the minority and that minorities are becoming the majority(collectively speaking only). This doublespeak is ridiculous and totally whack. I think it bespeaks white fears of a monolithic nonwhite horde overrunning the planet! What whites see is in terms of white and nonwhite. Doesn't matter that asians and Blacks or Latins or South Asians may be the most diametrically opposed to each other. What whites see is that if you're not one of them then you are not an ally. They have made all non whites allies with each other even though we have no idea what they're talking about. It is a box within which they(whites) have imprisoned themselves.
Be, you need to read Kasia's post again carefully.
I read kasia's post again.

Her point makes sense. Whoever wrote that article didn't think about what he was saying before he wrote it.

YOU are the one who went ahead and decided this was THE viewpoint of white people in your post.

AGAIN:

PLEASE SHOW ME HOW WHITE PEOPLE ARE UNITED AGAINST NON-WHITES

You still have not done that.

I'm sorry I have to be obnoxious and obvious about it, but it seems like even hitting you over the head with a hammer isn't getting your attention.

Anyway, I am done, it is obvious you don't have anything to say whe confronted with a difficult question.

[Green_Circle]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 7 2003, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by Green_Circle@Jul 7 2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Green_Circle@Jul 7 2003, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Jul 6 2003, 07:09 PM
that argument has always bothered me...so maybe you can explain. what difference does it make when minorities, collectively, outnumber the majority? it's not like we're one homogenous group. and it's hardly like our communities work together.

i know it's a collateral point, but it's not the first time i've heard it and i'm wondering what the rationale is behind it.
Good point. I read the articles splashed across the newspaper proclaiming that whites are becoming the minority and that minorities are becoming the majority(collectively speaking only). This doublespeak is ridiculous and totally whack. I think it bespeaks white fears of a monolithic nonwhite horde overrunning the planet! What whites see is in terms of white and nonwhite. Doesn't matter that asians and Blacks or Latins or South Asians may be the most diametrically opposed to each other. What whites see is that if you're not one of them then you are not an ally. They have made all non whites allies with each other even though we have no idea what they're talking about. It is a box within which they(whites) have imprisoned themselves.
Be, you need to read Kasia's post again carefully.
I read kasia's post again.

Her point makes sense. Whoever wrote that article didn't think about what he was saying before he wrote it.

YOU are the one who went ahead and decided this was THE viewpoint of white people in your post.

AGAIN:

PLEASE SHOW ME HOW WHITE PEOPLE ARE UNITED AGAINST NON-WHITES

You still have not done that.

I'm sorry I have to be obnoxious and obvious about it, but it seems like even hitting you over the head with a hammer isn't getting your attention.

Anyway, I am done, it is obvious you don't have anything to say whe confronted with a difficult question.
It's so simple. I can't understand why you don't get it

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by kasia@Jul 7 2003, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 6 2003, 11:59 PM
The LA riots were Koreans vs Blacks because the angry black mob trashed Koreatown and their own homes, because it would have been a real pain in the ass for them to walk all the way to beverly hills or orange county to start tearing shit up. 

is that right? you really should tell that to the korean shopowners who to this day are bitter with the lapd for blocking off beverly hills and other white neighborhoods and leaving koreatown vulnerable to the looting.
Hey, I know all about that. If there were enough national guard, or if the national guard would have had permission to shoot the crowd (which would have been a PR nightmare) Korea town would have never been touched.

When there are only so many cops to go around, you can either spread them out so thin that they won't be effective, therefore letting the entire city go up in flames, or you can concentrate them in one area and protect some of it.

They chose to protect the areas that were worth more money, so that rebuilding would not be so costly.

I don't necisarily agree with this, and it angered me to see Koreatown destroyed and have insensitive songs like Sublime's recount of the situation make it to number one on the record charts.

I don't think that the people who told the police what to do, nor the commanders of the national guard thought, "Oh sweet! Lets leave Koreatown unprotected and steer the black mob towards Koreatown", even tho that's what happened.

Personally if it were me in control of the national guard, I would break out the billy clubs and riot gear and fight to protect the city. However my job would be over, because it's somehow racist to employ riot control tactics when the race of the mob is something other than white.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by Green_Circle@Jul 7 2003, 05:12 PM

It's so simple. I can't understand why you don't get it
I don't "get it" because I'm not stupid enough to see a few articles as alarming fear in all whites in America everywhere. At the very most, it is the fears of ultra-conservatives and racist political groups like the KKK.

If you were to present this information that whites would be outnumbered by minorites eventually to my mom, she would say, "so what"? So would nearly all White democrats, most white liberals, and possibly a few white republicans, white conservatives, white moderates, white communists, etc etc...

I see the varying viewpoints in white America as anything but unification against minorities, because if there was any such thing as this, there wouldn't be any minorities in America. The racist whites would have done away with all the freed slaves by now and would never have let any non-whites into the country to begin with. The USA would then be 99.9% White (since a few people would slip thru the cracks somehow).

But obviously if minorities are on the brink of outnumbering whites, it shows that America's whites are largely NOT racist, as they are allowing non-whites into the country at more than just a slow trickle. In the past people were alarmed by the rapid growth of minority populations so much that they set restrictions based on national or even continental origin. Most of these policies have been deemed racist and have been altered.

[coagulated fat]

Originally posted by kasia@Jul 6 2003, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by coagulated fat@Jul 6 2003, 08:48 PM
I agree with you kasia and my name is when you say that whites are the majority in US society, hold the most power, and etc. But I still have a serious problem with the mentality that whites hold all the responsibility for the currently existing racism towards AAs. I don't agree that white society and American society are the same thing, even though they obviously overlap a great deal. Would you say that all racism that AAs have against other ethnic groups is the fault of whites as well? Surely to some extent it is; we live in a country where whites control many of the media images of different races. But I don't believe that minorities are always innocent bystanders in white people’s quest to perpetuate racial stereotypes. Many minorities revel in these stereotypes, often our parents, relatives, and even friends. Asians stereotype the Asian races – Korean girls are a prime example of a group of Asians stereotyped by other Asians. Not acknowledging that this is a problem of our society and not a problem of a race of people (whites) is to miss the point. Whites may be in the majority, but the percentage of racist people seems in my experience to be more or less the same across color lines.

I think it essentially comes down to a name game, do you want to call this racist force white or American. By calling it white, you insist on demonizing white people and fail to see that many minorities aren't exactly fighting negative stereotypes of races outside, of course, their own. Tying a specific race to the idea of racism may have made sense a long time ago, but now it seems a little, well… racist.
i think it should be first made clear that when i use the term 'whites' in this context, i am not saying that any of these attitudes and beliefs are inherent in the white race. rather, it is simply the case that they are the hegemonic power - not only politically but culturally and socially - and some attitudes and beliefs, as well as actions, are shaped by the fact that they want to remain in this dominant position. which group wouldn't? if any other group were in their position, such as chinese, i do not doubt that the same state of affairs may result.

that being said, yes - i do think that the whites, holding this hegemonic position, are responsible for some of the attitudes that minorities may hold against each other. for example, it is no surprise that the l.a. riots were korean v. black. or that many hold the misconception that *asians*, not whites, are the majority in our country's colleges and universities. we as asians have been used as a racial scapegoat to deflect from the rightful blame that should be placed on the majority. the reason why many asians turn their backs on the model minority myth is because they're tired of being used as the racial bourgeosie.

as for racist attitudes that asians hold toward one another or toward other races, some of these attitudes may be shaped by the white society (check out hollywood). some of the ignorance may also be formed within the minority groups. still, however much i disapprove of any sort of racism, i don't think it is as harmful as racism held by those with political, cultural, and social power.
Whites are not a huge group preaching diversity and acceptance with a hidden ulterior motive to keep other races down. Some whites might want to keep a dominant position, but I find it hard to believe that they strategize how best to pit the races against each other so the white race will still come out on top. Granted, it sometimes works out that way to deflect from violence/anger towards whites, but I can't think of more than one or two examples of it. Most of the time minorities do a fine job of stereotyping and looking down on each other without help from whites. Why is it so hard to believe that minorities can be racist without white influence?

Racism held by those with power is harmful because the effects are greater. But that doesn't justify looking the other way or supporting racism against whites by adopting the attitude that racism is a white problem belonging to a white society that white people need to fix. Regardless of what it once was or who started the trend, racism has become an American problem that is currently kept alive by people of all races. The rightful blame belongs on racist people across ethnic lines.

[My Name Is...]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 6 2003, 11:59 PM
The LA riots were Koreans vs Blacks because the angry black mob trashed Koreatown and their own homes, because it would have been a real pain in the ass for them to walk all the way to beverly hills or orange county to start tearing shit up.

Then, Koreans having their shit all torn up naturally would have a dislike for blacks, as it was mostly blacks that was tearing their shit up.
I know this is off topic: But do you really think it was Black folks doing most of the looting?

I personally think the Black vs. Korean thing was hyped up by the media. I know there were/are tensions between the two communities but I don't think it was as bad as the media made it out to be.

*Sorry about the digression.

[Green_Circle]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 7 2003, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by Green_Circle@Jul 7 2003, 05:12 PM

It's so simple. I can't understand why you don't get it
I don't "get it" because I'm not stupid enough to see a few articles as alarming fear in all whites in America everywhere. At the very most, it is the fears of ultra-conservatives and racist political groups like the KKK.

If you were to present this information that whites would be outnumbered by minorites eventually to my mom, she would say, "so what"? So would nearly all White democrats, most white liberals, and possibly a few white republicans, white conservatives, white moderates, white communists, etc etc...

I see the varying viewpoints in white America as anything but unification against minorities, because if there was any such thing as this, there wouldn't be any minorities in America. The racist whites would have done away with all the freed slaves by now and would never have let any non-whites into the country to begin with. The USA would then be 99.9% White (since a few people would slip thru the cracks somehow).

But obviously if minorities are on the brink of outnumbering whites, it shows that America's whites are largely NOT racist, as they are allowing non-whites into the country at more than just a slow trickle. In the past people were alarmed by the rapid growth of minority populations so much that they set restrictions based on national or even continental origin. Most of these policies have been deemed racist and have been altered.
The examples you borrow such as putting all minorities back on the ship or plane outta here is again, extreme as KKK and the Aryan Brotherhood and their ilk. We need not go there. Let's use balkanizations of territories/turf for example like in your college, work or live areas. Do you see much hand holding and diversity going on? Like college cafeterias for example. How about Whites choosing to live in "lily white''neighborhoods? Is there a parrallel like lily Black or lily Yellow or lily Brown?

[kasia]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 7 2003, 12:18 AM
I don't think that the people who told the police what to do, nor the commanders of the national guard thought, "Oh sweet!  Lets leave Koreatown unprotected and steer the black mob towards Koreatown", even tho that's what happened.
all the 911 calls from koreatown were ignored. and the koreans eventually realized that they were being ignored.

i think at this point you're just refusing to agree with me because i'm your "yw arch nemesis." i don't think that you would be that insensitive to your own people.


re: coagulated fat's comments. i don't think we're disagreeing here. i think we're just choosing to emphasize different points. and i agree with your point. racist attitudes held by minority groups are not justified.

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by My Name Is...@Jul 7 2003, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 6 2003, 11:59 PM
The LA riots were Koreans vs Blacks because the angry black mob trashed Koreatown and their own homes, because it would have been a real pain in the ass for them to walk all the way to beverly hills or orange county to start tearing shit up. 

Then, Koreans having their shit all torn up naturally would have a dislike for blacks, as it was mostly blacks that was tearing their shit up.
I know this is off topic: But do you really think it was Black folks doing most of the looting?

I personally think the Black vs. Korean thing was hyped up by the media. I know there were/are tensions between the two communities but I don't think it was as bad as the media made it out to be.

*Sorry about the digression.
Most of the looting was done by Hispanics, but most of the looting and assualts against Korean businesses were by Blacks because of the tension. A lot of Hispanics just kind of joined in on the looting and nobody has love for each other in LA and everything was fair game. Well except for the neighborhoods that were blocked off that is. Koreatown definitely deserves more justice then it ever got and ever will get though.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by kasia@Jul 8 2003, 02:40 AM
all the 911 calls from koreatown were ignored. and the koreans eventually realized that they were being ignored.

i think at this point you're just refusing to agree with me because i'm your "yw arch nemesis." i don't think that you would be that insensitive to your own people.



I'm not disagreeing with you, I totally agree that Koreatown got fucked in the ass by the police.

However, I don't think it was the intention of the police to purposefully allow Koreatown to be fucked. It just happened that way :luv: It has nothing to do with disagreeing with you. I have held this view since it happened. Even watchin sa-i-ku didn't make me think that the police were deliberately intending for Koreatown to be demolished. There simply were not enough police to protect the entire city without killing the rioters, which I would have done.

You may be my arch nemesis, but I have never disagreed with you for the sake of disagreeing.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 7 2003, 05:05 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you, I totally agree that Koreatown got fucked in the ass by the police.

However, I don't think it was the intention of the police to purposefully allow Koreatown to be fucked. It just happened that way :luv: It has nothing to do with disagreeing with you. I have held this view since it happened. Even watchin sa-i-ku didn't make me think that the police were deliberately intending for Koreatown to be demolished. There simply were not enough police to protect the entire city without killing the rioters, which I would have done.

You may be my arch nemesis, but I have never disagreed with you for the sake of disagreeing.
Wow, I'm surprised to hear you say this. What's the difference between deliberate intent and innocent mistake in this situation? None.

One of the worst slaps in the face about Sai i Gu: after tax-paying shop owners were abandoned by the police sworn to protect and serve, they were labeled and branded as gun-toting vigilantes on television. Even worse, after many of these shop owners had their businesses burned down, they were denied even the right to rebuild their business, due to some clever work by lawmakers in Sacramento.

What, if anything, can the city of Los Angeles or the state of California ever say that it did for Korean Americans, in light of the economic and social disaster of the LA Riots? Zip. Shit, ten years later after suffering half of all of the damages suffered by Los Angeles ($500 million), they barely got air play from MTV.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 7 2003, 07:05 PM
There simply were not enough police to protect the entire city without killing the rioters, which I would have done.
Killing rioters could have done one of two things:
1. They would have got scared and ran for home, deciding an extra TV set wasn't worth their lives.
2. They would have got pissed off and even more heavily armed people would have come pouring out of their homes.

Don't quite know which one it would be ... depends on how many people were actually out there cuz they were pissed at Koreans, and how many were just taking advantage of the opportunity for some free stuff.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jul 8 2003, 09:28 AM

Wow, I'm surprised to hear you say this. What's the difference between deliberate intent and innocent mistake in this situation? None.

One of the worst slaps in the face about Sai i Gu: after tax-paying shop owners were abandoned by the police sworn to protect and serve, they were labeled and branded as gun-toting vigilantes on television. Even worse, after many of these shop owners had their businesses burned down, they were denied even the right to rebuild their business, due to some clever work by lawmakers in Sacramento.

What, if anything, can the city of Los Angeles or the state of California ever say that it did for Korean Americans, in light of the economic and social disaster of the LA Riots? Zip. Shit, ten years later after suffering half of all of the damages suffered by Los Angeles ($500 million), they barely got air play from MTV.
Look, all I am saying is that sometimes you have to sacrifice something to save something else. It is certainly unfortunate that that meant Koreatown would get no protection, however this isn't about race. It's rich vs poor. Rich people will always get protection over poor people.

In 1992, I was 14. I was also on the east coast and worrying more about my DnD character and the value of my comic book collection rather than rodney king beating and its aftermath. California might as well have been another country.

That said, when I actually did see the gun toting vigilantes on TV I thought they were absolutley every right to protect themselves.

Yes, I AGREE WITH YOU, California dicked over Koreatown by not protecting it. I wasn't aware that the government also prevented them from rebuilding however. LA can't say it did anything to protect it. I am also saying I understand why it was not protected and I refuse to believe that institutional governmental racism against Koreans is the answer. I think it has to do with rich vs poor.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jul 8 2003, 09:29 AM
Killing rioters could have done one of two things:
1. They would have got scared and ran for home, deciding an extra TV set wasn't worth their lives.
2. They would have got pissed off and even more heavily armed people would have come pouring out of their homes.

Don't quite know which one it would be ... depends on how many people were actually out there cuz they were pissed at Koreans, and how many were just taking advantage of the opportunity for some free stuff.
It doesn't matter the people's intentions for being there. A mob of looters is a mob of criminals and they need to be dealt with, regardless of their race. I would at the very least employ tear gas, severe beatings with billy clubs, riot tactics with plastic shields and helmets, rubber bullets. And the like.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jul 7 2003, 05:29 PM
Killing rioters could have done one of two things:
1. They would have got scared and ran for home, deciding an extra TV set wasn't worth their lives.
2. They would have got pissed off and even more heavily armed people would have come pouring out of their homes.
I'd say it would have been more of the former. Sure, people were angry, but this isn't the West Bank or something, where people are openly challenging and attacking armed authorities. You beat down -- maybe even have to kill a few to make an example -- and the rest will back down. And sometimes, police have to establish control of situations immediately; unfortunately, this often leads to some legitimate claims of excessive police force or heavy-handedness, but it's a necessary evil.

I was in Koreatown the Saturday after the riots broke out for a peace march for Edward Lee and the store owners who had lost their businesses. I believe it was either on 6th or 3rd street, a group of Latino men were standing on the street corner, drunk, and heckling at the Koreans passing by.

The next thing I know, I saw a brick fly through the air, and literally the entire street (at least the Korean men anyway) descend on the guys, all of them yelling jah-boh! (grab him). Luckily for those guys, the LAPD was monitoring the march in full force and moved in immediately to quell the situation, officers literally swinging their batons to keep people back. The Korean guy standing in front of me had his head knocked in.

Since then I've never been a big fan of the LAPD as an organization. I don't hate on the individual officers, but it's hard to respect a group with so much shadiness in its history. Turning their back on Koreans was just one of their accomplishments during the 90's. Ever heard of Rampart?:P

[BeTheReds]

I know for sure if the mob had been white, there would be no question of what to do. They would have protected Koreatown.

However, because the mob was Black and Hispanic, doing their jobs would make them look racist. All this political correctness and diversity initiatives has a huge negative side if one minority group attacks another. White people can't do anything about it without looking bad. In my opinion it would have been better to save Koreatown and look racist against Blacks then to let it burn and look racist against Koreans.


What's Rampart?

Lets split the LA riots threads out of this thread.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 7 2003, 05:44 PM
I think it has to do with rich vs poor.
If we're looking at things through a black v. white context, then...

...the funny thing about rich v. poor is that most of the time white people happen to be rich while blacks happen to be poor.

But since the riots were so much more than just white v. black, that paradigm is simply extended a little: instead of whites not caring about blacks, it's "whites (or those in power) don't give a shit about those who don't have it."

Funny you mention about being on the other side of the east coast. Shit, even some of my friends who lived with me in Torrance (about 25 min south of LA) couldn't immediately identify at first with some of the Koreans who had been affected -- even if our parents were doing something similar. We were just the children of those people, and we'd grown up in white suburbs, and if we were lucky, were able to avoid having to toil with our parents.

[golden_buns]

Originally posted by coagulated fat@Jul 7 2003, 12:59 AM
But that doesn't justify looking the other way or supporting racism against whites by adopting the attitude that racism is a white problem belonging to a white society that white people need to fix. Regardless of what it once was or who started the trend, racism has become an American problem that is currently kept alive by people of all races. The rightful blame belongs on racist people across ethnic lines.
There's a difference in being racist and being bitter for being mistreated.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 7 2003, 08:38 PM
However, because the mob was Black and Hispanic, doing their jobs would make them look racist. All this political correctness and diversity initiatives has a huge negative side if one minority group attacks another. White people can't do anything about it without looking bad. In my opinion it would have been better to save Koreatown and look racist against Blacks then to let it burn and look racist against Koreans.


What's Rampart?

Lets split the LA riots threads out of this thread.
But you need to look at this in context though. Rodney King and Reginald Denny were precursors to the calamities you're referring to now ("political correctness"). Remember, this was a group of police officers beating a black man. I don't think political correctness had much a role to play, it was more, "Let's just let them expend their energy and anger and the situation will defuse itself within a few hours." Of course, now they seriously underestimated the extend of anger in the community (their lack of preparation to even respond immediately after the verdicts were handed out further underscores their ignorance of the situation). By the time they realized they had a serious situation on their hands -- and the riots began to slowly extend itself outward, towards the westside -- they continued to use this "scorched earth" policy by never engaging rioters directly; instead, they just camped out a bit west of Western Avenue.

Saying that the LAPD protected Beverly Hills isn't quite accurate; Beverly Hills is indeed about 15 minutes from the heart of Ktown. The LAPD basically drew the line right outside of Ktown.

[BeTheReds]

QUOTE (achtungbaby @ Jul 8 2003, 12:41 PM)
If we're looking at things through a black v. white context, then...

...the funny thing about rich v. poor is that most of the time white people happen to be rich while blacks happen to be poor.

But since the riots were so much more than just white v. black, that paradigm is simply extended a little: instead of whites not caring about blacks, it's "whites (or those in power) don't give a shit about those who don't have it."

Funny you mention about being on the other side of the east coast. Shit, even some of my friends who lived with me in Torrance (about 25 min south of LA) couldn't immediately identify at first with some of the Koreans who had been affected -- even if our parents were doing something similar. We were just the children of those people, and we'd grown up in white suburbs, and if we were lucky, were able to avoid having to toil with our parents. 

Yes, I do agree that usually rich vs poor happens to be upon racial lines a lot of the time that is unfortunate.

However if there were no racial lines in the riots, (meaning if the whole nation was white) and the poor were pissed that one of their own had been brutally beaten, and they started rioting, and the government wanted to minimize damage and try not to kill people, then they would have let the poor trash poor areas.

People in power always try to stay in power and exploit those who don't. That's a 10th grade civics lesson. That's why in high school I thought democratic communism was an absoultly perfect idea.


I think the reason I didn't identify with any of Koreatown's turmoil was because I wasn't really tied to Koreans at the time. I had no idea that Annandale (our Koreatown) existed even until High School. My father worked for the US government and my mom was a teacher. The only small Korean shop owners I knew on a personal level were the grocers who went bankrupt thanks to Lotte and Assi making Korean supermarkets in my area, my childhood friend's parents who ran a drycleaner near my house, and that's about it. I was also 13 and more worried that Todd McFarlane was leaving Spider-Man to do Spawn.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jul 8 2003, 12:55 PM

But you need to look at this in context though. Rodney King and Reginald Denny were precursors to the calamities you're referring to now ("political correctness"). Remember, this was a group of police officers beating a black man. I don't think political correctness had much a role to play, it was more, "Let's just let them expend their energy and anger and the situation will defuse itself within a few hours." Of course, now they seriously underestimated the extend of anger in the community (their lack of preparation to even respond immediately after the verdicts were handed out further underscores their ignorance of the situation). By the time they realized they had a serious situation on their hands -- and the riots began to slowly extend itself outward, towards the westside -- they continued to use this "scorched earth" policy by never engaging rioters directly; instead, they just camped out a bit west of Western Avenue.

Saying that the LAPD protected Beverly Hills isn't quite accurate; Beverly Hills is indeed about 15 minutes from the heart of Ktown. The LAPD basically drew the line right outside of Ktown.
You know, maybe you're right. The LA riots did make people think more about race and political correctness. I keep forgetting that I didn't think about race much before then. So my perception of race and racism is based on ideas and events that happened after that.

I blame the riots on the media however for their inaccurate portyal of what actually happened when Rodney King was beaten. Furthermore they kept replaying it over and over again cuz they knew they would get ratings. Never once did they mention that he was high on PCP, attacking the police, and in a stolen car. (actually my recollection of the car situation might be a little fuzzy so correct me if I am wrong). Without being armed with all the facts, all people saw was white police beating the crap out of a black man.

This is interesting..

What lies between Ktown and Beverly hills?

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 7 2003, 09:03 PM
I blame the riots on the media however for their inaccurate portyal of what actually happened when Rodney King was beaten. Furthermore they kept replaying it over and over again cuz they knew they would get ratings. Never once did they mention that he was high on PCP, attacking the police, and in a stolen car. (actually my recollection of the car situation might be a little fuzzy so correct me if I am wrong). Without being armed with all the facts, all people saw was white police beating the crap out of a black man.

This is interesting..

What lies between Ktown and Beverly hills?
The media certainly never, ever played a positive role in the entire debacle, whether it was in trying to make sense of the beating itself, or about feelings afterwards. But then, at the time, a LOT of black people felt like that sort of thing was happening all the time, it had just never been captured so vividly like with Rodney King.

I remember being part of this inter-ethnic leadership program put on by a few community advocacy groups, including APALC...it was about 20 "community leaders" of different races put together once a month for one year to learn racial tolerance. I was only in the group because they wanted one student representative, since everyone else was an adult already working in the community. When we'd talked about the riots, I remember one black guy -- he was in his 30s, was a high school teacher, and up until that point seemingly a very gentle and nice guy -- talk about the riots and the second trial in which the acquitted officers were getting "retried"...I remember him sayin, "If they get off again, I'm gonna have to burn something down." This inspite of a year's worth of reflection and analysis on everything we didnt' do right during the riots. Black people were friggen pissed man:)

Anyway, I don't think King was actually on PCP, the cops just thought he was 'cuz he wouldn't respond like a normal friggen human being to tasers.

But let's say he was a "crook" and a perp...I still feel uncomfortable with the police acting as judge and jury, enforcing the law as they see fit, regardless sometimes of the crook. Why? Because cops make plenty of honest mistakes.

Between Ktown and Beverly Hills...Miracle Mile, Larchmont, some parts of Century City...mostly white areas:)

[BeTheReds]

Well you have certainly opened my eye to the whole situation. I have lived my entire life in an area where riots seldom happen (except when MD plays DUKE in basketball) where the cops, though sometimes too concerned with speeding, generally do their job and have strict requirements for becoming cops.

The only riot I can recall in DC was in the late 80's when the hispanic population clashed with police but didn't destroy too many things, and I don't remember what they were angry about. Maybe it was Panama, but I am not sure. Anyway the Cops shot teargas and dispersed the crowd and that was the end of it.

I'm still not going to say that the policy in effect was deliberately racist against Koreans. The police chose the wrong strategy, totally underestimated the size and will of the rioters, and completly failed at handling the situation as they should have.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 8 2003, 12:03 AM
I blame the riots on the media however for their inaccurate portyal of what actually happened when Rodney King was beaten. Furthermore they kept replaying it over and over again cuz they knew they would get ratings. Never once did they mention that he was high on PCP, attacking the police, and in a stolen car. (actually my recollection of the car situation might be a little fuzzy so correct me if I am wrong). Without being armed with all the facts, all people saw was white police beating the crap out of a black man.
I don't think the car was stolen, but I think the reason he was pulled over was that he was doing 100 mph. The main reason for the trial was that the officers involved played down the beating in their report, making it seem like an ordinary situation where they had to subdue a criminal, when in fact they'd given King serious head wounds.

[AngryABCGirl]

http://www.pacificnews.org/jinn/stories/3....0428-riots.html (http://www.pacificnews.org/jinn/stories/3.09/970428-riots.html)

A Letter From the Future -- Fifty Years After the L.A. Riots

By Richard Rodriguez



<richrod@sirius.com>

Date: 04-28-97
How will the L.A. riots of 1992 be remembered fifty years from now? PNS editor Richard Rodriguez writes from the vantage point of 2042 that the riots marked a turning point in how the city understood itself. Rodriguez, the author of "Days of Obligation: An Argument with My Mexican Father" (Viking), is a regular contributor to the Los Angeles Times opinion pages.

LOS ANGELES -- What do I remember of those days in 1992? I remember standing on a rooftop along Sunset Boulevard and seeing the southern horizon filled with smoke. Some terrible excitement, some evil thrill, made me shiver at the destruction.

Here I sit, a dry old man. Fifty years have passed. So much has changed in Los Angeles. The city seems younger to me, now that my eyes are bad and my hands shake. I remember how the newspapers and the voices on television talked about the "black riot." But I saw hundreds of Latinos rushing out of stores that had been busted open, rushing out with their arms full of appliances and tall boxes of Pampers. It was as though the Latinos had stolen the black riot and made it their own.

I stood watching, almost ready to steal something myself. I remember the cops coming and, when they made a half-hearted show of force, I found myself running with the mob and I heard myself laughing -- it felt like my mouth was unconnected to the rest of my body -- as I ran with the panting crowd.

Many people said after those violent days that L.A. had killed itself, slammed open its soul on the street, and left it to bleed on the pavement with all the broken glass. I knew people who left town, left L.A. for any place else. I knew people who would never again go downtown without feeling afraid of the stranger.

But L.A. did not die. L.A. is too resilient. L.A. is filled with too many babies and teenage fathers and too many grandmothers who hope for the future. Sometimes I think that L.A. saw its future for the very first time during those terrible days of late April and early May.

Karl Marx wrote that the discovery of gold in California would prove to be a more important event in the history of the world than the discovery of the Americas by Columbus. When the European met the Indian in 1492, two continents met. But after gold was discovered in California in 1848, the entire world converged. For the first time in human history, the African met the Filipino met the Peruvian met the Mexican met the Australian met the Chinese met the Russian. Men fought over gold in the muddy fields. Men died. But the world had met.

I think about Karl Marx's prediction whenever I look at Los Angeles, this city so full of life, so full of babies who look like none of their grandparents exactly. I know children who are Jewish Filipinos with Iranian cousins who are married to Guatemalans. No wonder L.A. has become the true capital of America.

Already in the 1990s it was predicted that L.A. was becoming an Hispanic city, and California was becoming Hispanic. But nobody really knew what any of it meant. Many people thought that Hispanics were a racial group and that Hispanics were comparable to "blacks" or "whites." They thought that L.A. was literally becoming a brown city. They did not understand brown as a figure of speech.

L.A. a Mexican city. Did you know that by the 18th century, the majority population in Mexico was "mixed" -- neither pure European nor pure Indian? Did you know that the highest rate of intermarriage between the Indian and the African in the Americas took place in Mexico?

You read in your school book about Rodney King. I do not remember what finally happened to him. The history of the United States is filled with many such men as Rodney King.

By 1992, once again, a black man had been brutally beaten by the police. But the incident was caught on videotape. The white cops went on trial; the cops were judged innocent. Which sent young blacks into a rage over in South-Central when that was still mainly a black neighborhood.

Strangers pulled strangers from their cars. Blacks attacked whites. In those first hours, before darkness fell, it seemed like a simple story, a story we had known before -- another Detroit, another Harlem, another Watts -- a story with a narrative line we knew from memory. What nobody quite understood in those first hours was the problem of having a black riot in a brown city.

The city slept restlessly. The next day there were black mobs attacking Korean stores. And Koreans stood on rooftops with guns in their hands. And Vietnamese were mistaken for Koreans by the black mob. And Salvadoran kids went downtown shouting revolutionary slogans in Spanish.

California is not an innocent place. Think of the terrible cruelties against the Chinese. Remember San Francisco: Early in the century, striking workers were shot by the police and they died on Market Street in neat pools of blood. And don't forget that L.A. had seen murder in the 1940s, when Mexicans fought the police.

There are many grievances in a place as big as this place, and sometimes those grievances are not contained. People go crazy. A rock is flung through a window, the mob senses its power when the initial offense goes unchallenged. The mob feels its muscle swell. The police are surprised at first, and then in awe of the swelling. And then the police turn angry.

These are not matters for an old man to remember. It tires me to recall the waste, the destruction, the death of the young -- why is it always the young who riot?

The thing that was different about 1992 was the size and scope. The entire city felt implicated and afraid. Los Angeles -- an entire metropolis -- felt threatened as block after block fell and the fire spread. Soon the freeways filled as people tried to leave town, seeking safety from the mob and the fires. Fear slowed the San Diego freeway and gridlock turned into panic.

It was the worst moment for Los Angeles. It was also the first moment, I think, when most people in L.A. realized they were part of the whole. The city that the world mocked for not being a city, for lacking a center, having only separate suburbs, separate freeway exits -- L.A. realized that it was interconnected. In fear, people realized that what was happening on the other side of town implicated them.

Isn't that odd? You'd think, perhaps, that the idea of our human interconnectedness would be a pleasing one. But no, it's a hard idea. Sometimes the truest ideas, the most durable insights, come when the heart is racing and the air is full of smoke.

I do not know how to say this even now, so many years later. But I think L.A. -- the idea of the city entire -- was born during those dark nights, while the sirens wailed and old women in Santa Monica realized that they shared the same city as teenagers in Compton.

It is an odd inheritance that my generation has passed to yours. We have given you the idea of a city. And, of course, because you are young and innocent of the cruelties of history, you do not understand that yours is a hard-won inheritance. Perhaps you assume it.

It is 2042 and you know things that we did not know fifty years ago. You realize better than we did that Asia is close. You realize that Seoul is closer, more important to your daily life, than Brussels. These are new ideas in America. Treasure them.

It is your generation's luxury to realize that L.A., even California, is part of Latin America. You expand our sense of the city in directions far beyond the city limits. You understand, in ways my generation did not, that Tijuana is part of southern California. We had no idea.

We lived, for the most part, in separate suburbs until 1992. We thought of ourselves in discreet little categories. We thought ourselves white or black or Asian or Hispanic. These were categories given to us by government bureaucrats, and for a while they made sense to us.

I remember an actor named Keanu Reeves -- his mother was Anglo Saxon, his father was Hawaiian-Chinese. And from those days I remember a golfer -- an elegant young athlete named Tiger Woods. His mother was Thai, his father was black and Caucasian and American Indian. When such people came into prominence, their complexity astonished America. We were just then beginning to exhaust the old ways of talking about ourselves.

I sit in late afternoon and hear the unruly, the rude, the laughing young people coming home from school. There are times when their voices wake me from my nap. Sometimes I lie in bed and time seems the mystery of life. I feel myself a boy, imagine my mother downstairs and my sister coming home from school...

I am an old man. I sit here remembering a riot that took place in your city fifty years ago. 1992.

[BeTheReds]

Hey, that's pretty interesting.

[deez nuts]

my best friend's uncle had a store in k-town that was looted, burned and destroyed. he lost everything. he had two kids going to college here in the east coast. we all chipped in (including my mom and dad since we're really close) a decent chunk of cash to help in start all over and help his family through tough times.

from the stories he told me, i definitely understand his apprehension and animosity towards blacks and why he refers to blacks as savages. he basically lost everything he worked so hard to build up for him and his family since coming from korea cuz of the LA riot.

he was right there in k-town when it was all going down defending his shop. he said the police didn't do shit. he said it was like the police were scared cuz of the sheer amount of black people rioting.

to summarize how he felt: he basically felt that he was fucked over by the blacks and the LAPD.

the LAPD bit actually surprised me and my friend when he was telling us the story. i didn't know they were so passive during the whole ordeal. although bits and pieces of other specifics might've been lost in the translation since my friend was translating the story for me while his uncle was telling it to us in korean.

in the end, him and his wife packed up and moved to ny at the request of my best friend's dad (his brother).

[deez nuts]

wasn't one of the other catalysts leading up to the LA riots that incident where a korean lady shop owner shot a little black girl dead for shoplifting orange juice?

not just the rodney king incident?

someone please refresh my memory.

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Jul 8 2003, 07:36 AM
wasn't one of the other catalysts leading up to the LA riots that incident where a korean lady shopowner shot a little black girl dead for shoplifting orange juice?

not just the rodney king incident?

someone please refresh my memory.
yup and she got off with a slap on the wrist.

[TB4000]

yup and she got off with a slap on the wrist.


Kinda sad that we as black and asian people have to be on such opposite ends of the spectrum at times.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Jul 8 2003, 05:36 AM
wasn't one of the other catalysts leading up to the LA riots that incident where a korean lady shop owner shot a little black girl dead for shoplifting orange juice?

not just the rodney king incident?

someone please refresh my memory.
Latasha Harlins. Soon Ja Du, a Korean grandmother, accused Harlins of trying to steal OJ from her store. A fight ensued, and Harlins beat the crap out of the old woman (the part conveniently left off the videotape shown by MTV). Du pulled out a gun and shot Harlins from behind as she walked out the door.

It was a tragedy. Harlins was only 13 or 14 years old. Then again, if Du was my grandmother, I woulda shot Harlins too.

Another catalyst: how many Korean shop owners were murdered from 1991 - 1992? Even during 1993, a year after the rights, I remember hearing Angela Oh say that that spring alone, over 11 Korean shop owners had been murdered.

[BeTheReds]

Wow, they made it look like she was shooting her over the orange juice. Even so, there was a security camera and she should have sued harlins and gotten some sweet damages rather than shooting her.

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jul 8 2003, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Jul 8 2003, 05:36 AM
wasn't one of the other catalysts leading up to the LA riots that incident where a korean lady shop owner shot a little black girl dead for shoplifting orange juice?

not just the rodney king incident?

someone please refresh my memory.
Latasha Harlins. Soon Ja Du, a Korean grandmother, accused Harlins of trying to steal OJ from her store. A fight ensued, and Harlins beat the crap out of the old woman (the part conveniently left off the videotape shown by MTV). Du pulled out a gun and shot Harlins from behind as she walked out the door.

It was a tragedy. Harlins was only 13 or 14 years old. Then again, if Du was my grandmother, I woulda shot Harlins too.

Another catalyst: how many Korean shop owners were murdered from 1991 - 1992? Even during 1993, a year after the rights, I remember hearing Angela Oh say that that spring alone, over 11 Korean shop owners had been murdered.
i probably would've done the same thing.

i think anybody would've had the potential to do the same thing regardless of race.

Another catalyst: how many Korean shop owners were murdered from 1991 - 1992? Even during 1993, a year after the rights, I remember hearing Angela Oh say that that spring alone, over 11 Korean shop owners had been murdered.

and not mentioned all the shattered dreams of giving up a comfortable life back in korea to come to the usa to make a better life for their family, especially their kids.


i know i'm gonna get flamed for this: but some of these young black kids that go into these stores really need a beating. what the hell are they teaching them at home? my parents encountered everything from catching these young black kids shoplifting, they've been spit on, cursed at, calling them chink, had knives pulled on them, had a gun pulled on them. and they owned stores in predominantly asian neighborhoods.

there was one instant when this black kid pulled a knife on my mom at our old store asking her for money. she screamed. my brother and two of his friends came running out. the black kid saw three big asian guys come out and ran out the door. my brother and his friends chased him down the block and gave him the beating of his life. i was away in med school, my dad called me that night and asked for the phone number of my high school friend who was away at law school at yale.

this shit also happens at my best friend dave's parents laundromat, almost on a weekly basis. he's korean and his parents got shit only from blacks way before the LA riots happened and even more shit from blacks after the LA riots. and their store is in a white middle class jewish neighborhood. my dad was actually shocked and speechless on how much more shit they got from blacks compared to us, when we were all having dinner one night.

and, yes, all our incidents were from blacks and young black kids. sorry, but just calling it the way it happened to me and my friends.

and since i'm not pulling any punches:

all these self righteous black people that call for unity and how blacks and asians are similiar and share the same plight, how we should march hand in hand blah blah blah. don't come preaching to me, period. how about looking at your own track record. focus all your energy and taking care of your end first? preach about respect, raising your kids better and all that good stuff.

do as you will. flame on.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Jul 9 2003, 08:56 AM


and not mentioned all the shattered dreams of giving up a comfortable life back in korea to come to the usa to make a better life for their family, especially their kids.

Most of the immigrants from Korea come to the USA because they don't have a comfortable life in Korea. If they did, then why would they leave?

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 8 2003, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Jul 9 2003, 08:56 AM


and not mentioned all the shattered dreams of giving up a comfortable life back in korea to come to the usa to make a better life for their family, especially their kids.

Most of the immigrants from Korea come to the USA because they don't have a comfortable life in Korea. If they did, then why would they leave?
i'm not clear on that one.

but on a strictly personal level, most of my korean friends' parents were white collared workers in korea.

my best friend's parents: his dad was an architect and his mom was a nurse. i don't know why they came here to the usa to slave 14 hr days in a hot laundromat 6 days a week.

[BeTheReds]

That simply doesn't make sense to me. Unless the reason for them leaving happens to be the fact that is very difficult to get into university in Korea and they wanted their kids to go to school in the USA, and by moving here, their kids would not have language problems if they were to do so.

I'd say that is a minority of the Korean immigrant population though. Most of the ones who come over are working class in Korea too, where most likely their kids won't be able to even go to college because they can't possibly get into a good high school. Others simply because of sheer economics. The mighty dollar does wonders. In the USA you can do the same work and live in a larger house and have money to spare in the end.

I think in the future we are going to see fewer and fewer Korean immigrants, just like we see so few Japanese ones these days. Almost all of the reasons for immigration to the USA are economics, and Korea's economy is getting better and better (even though recently not so great). While the Korean economy will never have a bubble decade like Japan did, the economy continues to grow and there seems to be less and less reason to leave.

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 8 2003, 07:20 PM
That simply doesn't make sense to me. Unless the reason for them leaving happens to be the fact that is very difficult to get into university in Korea and they wanted their kids to go to school in the USA, and by moving here, their kids would not have language problems if they were to do so.

yeah that's the reason. it was in my head, but i couldn't word it. fucking english skills going down the drain.

you're going off on a tangent again.

let it go and/or start a new thread.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 8 2003, 05:09 PM
Most of the immigrants from Korea come to the USA because they don't have a comfortable life in Korea. If they did, then why would they leave?
Simple. I think you could equate it with having a good, stable job in Iowa and be lured to the opportunity (not to mention glitz and glamour) of the big city.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Jul 8 2003, 04:56 PM
i know i'm gonna get flamed for this: but some of these young black kids that go into these stores really need a beating. what the hell are they teaching them at home? my parents encountered everything from catching these young black kids shoplifting, they've been spit on, cursed at, calling them chink, had knives pulled on them, had a gun pulled on them. and they owned stores in predominantly asian neighborhoods.

there was one instant when this black kid pulled a knife on my mom at our old store asking her for money. she screamed. my brother and two of his friends came running out. the black kid saw three big asian guys come out and ran out the door. my brother and his friends chased him down the block and gave him the beating of his life. i was away in med school, my dad called me that night and asked for the phone number of my high school friend who was away at law school at yale.

this shit also happens at my best friend dave's parents laundromat, almost on a weekly basis. he's korean and his parents got shit only from blacks way before the LA riots happened and even more shit from blacks after the LA riots. and their store is in a white middle class jewish neighborhood. my dad was actually shocked and speechless on how much more shit they got from blacks compared to us, when we were all having dinner one night.

and, yes, all our incidents were from blacks and young black kids. sorry, but just calling it the way it happened to me and my friends.

and since i'm not pulling any punches:

all these self righteous black people that call for unity and how blacks and asians are similiar and share the same plight, how we should march hand in hand blah blah blah. don't come preaching to me, period. how about looking at your own track record. focus all your energy and taking care of your end first? preach about respect, raising your kids better and all that good stuff.

do as you will. flame on.
To be somewhat fair, I know some Korean shop owners can be downright rude in how they treat patrons. But as an adult, I can always just choose to take my business elsewhere.

You've made some pretty strong statements there, bunboy. I dunno if I wanna try and debate the tenets of each one, but I'm sure most of us have certainly felt what you're saying to some degree at one time or another. All I can say is that there is a lot that goes into the plight of blacks in America: Asians have not suffered the same thing -- and I'm not saying one is better than the other -- but I know we haven't walked in their shoes.

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jul 8 2003, 08:52 PM
All I can say is that there is a lot that goes into the plight of blacks in America: Asians have not suffered the same thing -- and I'm not saying one is better than the other -- but I know we haven't walked in their shoes.
i agree, 100%

but, on the flip side and to be fair.

they haven't in walked in our shoes, either.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 8 2003, 07:20 PM
I think in the future we are going to see fewer and fewer Korean immigrants, just like we see so few Japanese ones these days. Almost all of the reasons for immigration to the USA are economics, and Korea's economy is getting better and better (even though recently not so great). While the Korean economy will never have a bubble decade like Japan did, the economy continues to grow and there seems to be less and less reason to leave.
Immigration from Korea is down by 2/3 from the peak in the 80s (now 12,000/yr vs. 34,000/yr back then). But Japanese immigration has pretty much been 5,000/yr since after WWII. (And Japan's population is like 2.5x the size of Korea). So basically, on a per capita basis, immigration from Korea is still like 6x higher than that from Japan, and the INS estimates (hahaha) that it actually went up last year.

But didn't Korea grow by like 7% last year, mainly on the basis of domestic consumer spending? So they're kinda insulated from the global shock.

Oh yeah, Korea Times published some survey saying that 90% of emigrants to Canada or US from Korea listed their children's education as the reason for going.

[ChairmanMah]

i'd like to have a gun. I might have a gun one day but i'm scared of what i might do.

So to protect my property, i've designed a spear made of a 8" kitchen knife, stuffed and fastened inside a pvc pipe. Anyone coming near my shit is gonna get harpooned.

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Jul 8 2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jul 8 2003, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Jul 8 2003, 05:36 AM
wasn't one of the other catalysts leading up to the LA riots that incident where a korean lady shop owner shot a little black girl dead for shoplifting orange juice?

not just the rodney king incident?

someone please refresh my memory.
Latasha Harlins. Soon Ja Du, a Korean grandmother, accused Harlins of trying to steal OJ from her store. A fight ensued, and Harlins beat the crap out of the old woman (the part conveniently left off the videotape shown by MTV). Du pulled out a gun and shot Harlins from behind as she walked out the door.

It was a tragedy. Harlins was only 13 or 14 years old. Then again, if Du was my grandmother, I woulda shot Harlins too.

Another catalyst: how many Korean shop owners were murdered from 1991 - 1992? Even during 1993, a year after the rights, I remember hearing Angela Oh say that that spring alone, over 11 Korean shop owners had been murdered.
i probably would've done the same thing.

i think anybody would've had the potential to do the same thing regardless of race.



and not mentioned all the shattered dreams of giving up a comfortable life back in korea to come to the usa to make a better life for their family, especially their kids.


i know i'm gonna get flamed for this: but some of these young black kids that go into these stores really need a beating. what the hell are they teaching them at home? my parents encountered everything from catching these young black kids shoplifting, they've been spit on, cursed at, calling them chink, had knives pulled on them, had a gun pulled on them. and they owned stores in predominantly asian neighborhoods.

there was one instant when this black kid pulled a knife on my mom at our old store asking her for money. she screamed. my brother and two of his friends came running out. the black kid saw three big asian guys come out and ran out the door. my brother and his friends chased him down the block and gave him the beating of his life. i was away in med school, my dad called me that night and asked for the phone number of my high school friend who was away at law school at yale.

this shit also happens at my best friend dave's parents laundromat, almost on a weekly basis. he's korean and his parents got shit only from blacks way before the LA riots happened and even more shit from blacks after the LA riots. and their store is in a white middle class jewish neighborhood. my dad was actually shocked and speechless on how much more shit they got from blacks compared to us, when we were all having dinner one night.

and, yes, all our incidents were from blacks and young black kids. sorry, but just calling it the way it happened to me and my friends.

and since i'm not pulling any punches:

all these self righteous black people that call for unity and how blacks and asians are similiar and share the same plight, how we should march hand in hand blah blah blah. don't come preaching to me, period. how about looking at your own track record. focus all your energy and taking care of your end first? preach about respect, raising your kids better and all that good stuff.

do as you will. flame on.
I think a lot of these kids are being a like a lot of AAs are today, reactive and wanting to step on whoever they can because they've been stepped on. I have to admit, I have never personally been directly hasseled by white people severly or called Chink or anything, ableit a few comments but nothing worth exchanging blows over. The only time I've ever really had a problem were with Black kids in Boston at a T station who yelled taunts, but quickly backed down when I wasn't going to. A lot of Latino kids have been getting heckled too because of "Black flight" because they're moving into historically Black neighborhoods. There have been reported incidents of Latinos being beaten a la Rodney Style recently, wish I could find the article now. It seems like a lot of Black people are doing the things they once abhorred being done to them. Another group might do the same in a few years. It's funny how human nature works.

[golden_buns]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jul 8 2003, 06:02 PM
But didn't Korea grow by like 7% last year, mainly on the basis of domestic consumer spending? So they're kinda insulated from the global shock.

Oh yeah, Korea Times published some survey saying that 90% of emigrants to Canada or US from Korea listed their children's education as the reason for going.
Korea had a 6.3% groth last year, but a good chunk of that money was investement in real state, not so much on the business area, so housing prices have skyrocketed.
This year has been sluggish as hell, the furst quarter reported a 3.4% growth, credit crad debts are 6.6 trillion won, and people have problem paying back, and govt and companies are skeptical about new investments. Also many financial institutions are complaining about the lack of transparency on corporate accounts, so things like the Enron and Worldcomm scandals are bound to happen soon. And foreign investment has gone to the drain due to uprising tensions between Pyongyang and Washington, unemployement is high as hell, and no companies are hiring. It's a shitty year for Koreans with a projected growth between 2.9% tp 3.7% percent

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by golden_buns@Jul 8 2003, 07:40 PM
unemployement is high as hell, and no companies are hiring.
oh you mean...kinda like here LOL

[kasia]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@Jul 8 2003, 06:09 PM
I think a lot of these kids are being a like a lot of AAs are today, reactive and wanting to step on whoever they can because they've been stepped on. I have to admit, I have never personally been directly hasseled by white people severly or called Chink or anything, ableit a few comments but nothing worth exchanging blows over. The only time I've ever really had a problem were with Black kids in Boston at a T station who yelled taunts, but quickly backed down when I wasn't going to. A lot of Latino kids have been getting heckled too because of "Black flight" because they're moving into historically Black neighborhoods. There have been reported incidents of Latinos being beaten a la Rodney Style recently, wish I could find the article now. It seems like a lot of Black people are doing the things they once abhorred being done to them. Another group might do the same in a few years. It's funny how human nature works.
i think i'm going to get flamed for this, too, but i don't think it's fair to compare asian kids with black kids.

latasha harlins socked soon ja du in once. then while the elderly lady was getting up off the ground, latasha harlins socked her in the face again. all this because she believed that she was being accused of stealing orange juice. i've never heard of actions similar to this taken by asian kids. i think many of us were taught to respect our elders.

and it's not like latasha harlins was the only one harassing shopowners. i read one korean man's story about how a couple of black teenagers entered his market, watched to see if he would keep an eye on them, and when he did, attempted to pick a fight with him and loot his store. he talked about how he didn't do anything to stop them because his young grandson was in the store and he feared for his safety. he talked about the humiliation he felt by letting teenagers do that to him.

here in k-town, it's not like korean kids aren't accused or suspected of stealing. many of them are. the beverly center, for example, is known among korean kids as a place that racially profiles and discriminates against them. still, there are no incidents of them looting the center. nor are there incidents of them beating up or talking shit to white owners.

in saying all of this, i'm not trying to blame the black community for their predicament. i'm just saying that we raise our kids differently.

[golden_buns]

Originally posted by kasia@Jul 8 2003, 08:53 PM
here in k-town, it's not like korean kids aren't accused or suspected of stealing. many of them are. the beverly center, for example, is known among korean kids as a place that racially profiles and discriminates against them. still, there are no incidents of them looting the center. nor are there incidents of them beating up or talking shit to white owners
Strange, I saw many Koreans there, some of them working at stores.
What caused that discrimination in the first place?

[TB4000]

As one of the few black people that post here, I've been going through some of the comments, and I do have my own, of course. I do agree that we in the black community do tend to have our own little ways of dealing with stuff we deem problems, and not always in the best fashion. Most of that hostility towards Asians, as far as from what my peers and family members say is the, "they come in our community starting businesses, taking our money, and have the nerve to not respect us when we patronize them." That's more or less the viewpoint of a lot of us. And I do say that if it was such a problem, we should start our own businesses in our community, but I have yet to understand why so few of us do. And I'm thinkin' it was achtung who mentioned that true, none of you have walked in our shoes at all....you all have experienced racism at one point or another I'm sure, but I'm not gonna sit here and say it's to the sheer force that any black person has, and you can say that I'm playing a race card by assuming that blacks have it worse than asians as far as racial issues in this country, but point out an occurence in history and prove me wrong. Currently it does seem like asians have become more of the scapegoat in racist jokes and what not, which is as wrong as wrong can be, but that's only due to people being freaked out to say anything negative about african amercians since we actually stepped up to do something about lo those many years ago. Personally, I say, fuck anyone who calls it whining...if the forefathers didn't whine, this country would still be run by the british.

[ChairmanMah]

Originally posted by TB4000@Jul 9 2003, 06:16 AM
"they come in our community starting businesses, taking our money, and have the nerve to not respect us when we patronize them."
i'm not saying you, but in general, if you don't like the storeowner, then don't shop there.

and another thing to add to what you said, i agree that blacks should own stores and many do but from what i've picked up from the news and media that a lot of blacks are more concerned about the shadier things in life than education.

everyone knows that an education is the foundation for majority of successful ventures.

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by TB4000@Jul 9 2003, 09:16 AM
but I'm not gonna sit here and say it's to the sheer force that any black person has, and you can say that I'm playing a race card by assuming that blacks have it worse than asians as far as racial issues in this country, but point out an occurence in history and prove me wrong.
i've never taken a black history class and i know very little about black history. to put it bluntly, nor do i care.

but speaking in relation to the topic:

how is targetting and picking on asian mom and pop stores gonna solve years upon years of racism against blacks. how is that gonna give blacks the restitution, the reparation and the closure they want?

[tommyhtown]

Originally posted by TB4000@Jul 9 2003, 06:16 AM
"they come in our community starting businesses, taking our money, and have the nerve to not respect us when we patronize them."
I couldn't agree more with the viewpoint on how some Korean business owners disrespecting their customers. My family has a business in the service industry. I was taught that the most important aspect of our business is our customer. Treat them well so that they would come back and patronize us again. That is why I am annoyed every time I go to clothing store, restaurant, etc etc. and get treated poorly by rude sale persons or waiters. Some people have no business working in the service industry whatsoever!

Having said that, I don't know how the Korean store owners/black customers problem started. I would guess that it's a chicken and egg problem where the lack of understanding from both parties escalates to prevalent race tensions that we have nowadays.

[kasia]

Originally posted by TB4000@Jul 9 2003, 06:16 AM
you can say that I'm playing a race card by assuming that blacks have it worse than asians as far as racial issues in this country.
i would point out that chinese people were enslaved as well. but overall, i can't disagree with you. black people do have it harder.

Currently it does seem like asians have become more of the scapegoat in racist jokes and what not, which is as wrong as wrong can be, but that's only due to people being freaked out to say anything negative about african amercians since we actually stepped up to do something about lo those many years ago.

exactly. it's no coincidence that they moved on to asians.

[lethal]

Originally posted by TB4000@Jul 9 2003, 10:16 AM
"they come in our community starting businesses, taking our money, and have the nerve to not respect us when we patronize them." That's more or less the viewpoint of a lot of us. And I do say that if it was such a problem, we should start our own businesses in our community, but I have yet to understand why so few of us do.
I theorize, but give no evidence, that part of the reason for this is financing. Asian storeowners have sort of an unofficial network of lenders to help them start businesses. I read this somewhere. Like 10 otehr liquor store owners would chip in 5 grand a piece to help a new guy start up in another neighborhood knowing that they would get paid back because their word was as good as gold. I'm not sure how smart this is, but it does provide seed money.

Blacks, ont he other hand, have to go through traditional lending institutions, like banks. Banks have historically been reluctant to lend money to black businessowners and all minority businesses generally.

This could be part of the issue of why there aren't more black owned small businesses in black neighborhoods.

[Cipherous]

I am not in Cali, how are things in Koreatown?&nbsp;

Is there still a tension between Asians and Blacks?

[RasFarengi]

Why is it seen as such an Asian/black problem. Way More Mexicans got arrested than blacks during the riots, their were "housing" TV, Stereos, and all kind of stuff running down the street.

The media plays up the Black V whoever angle becaue it sales...Mexicans were rarely mentioned to my knowledge.

My girl on another site from the area broke it down.

OF course the onus is on Black people. We were the ones that have made the lot of Korean Americans so hard, because we are so monstrous, uneducated, sub-humans. I guess you forgot to consider that Hispanics, especially illegals, made up over half of the arrests while Blacks made up only a third:

http://racerelations.about.com/gi/dynamic/...m/gi....te=http (http://racerelations.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/3149454.htm>http://racerelations.about.com/gi....te=http)

“A Rand Corp. analysis found that most of the 10,000 people arrested were young men; more than half were Latino, and about a third were black.”

My my. I also guess you failed to consider that there is a huge disparity in education and social standing between Koreans who are most likely to be college graduates and do not live in the communities which their store is located and that Blacks were often poorly educated and also economically poor:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-04270...1,1402433.story (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-042702races,1,1402433.story>http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-042702races,1,1402433.story)

But deep down, the fundamental differences between Korean shopkeepers and black customers make their encounters a precarious equation of mutual necessity.

The two cultures rarely live together. For example, in the 10 Los Angeles County census tracts with the heaviest black populations, largely in South-Central, Koreans make up an average of 6%. In the 10 tracts with the heaviest Korean populations, largely in several Mid-City neighborhoods, blacks make up an average of less than half a percent.

While many of the Korean American shopkeepers' customers are poor and have marginal education, 80% of the merchants are college graduates, their economic advancement stymied by the language barrier. They come from a hierarchal Confucian culture, in which sizing up people by their age, education and social standing is second nature; egalitarianism is an alien concept. From the African American point of view, the idea of a neighborhood business that has no community commitment is just as alien.

But the bottom lines is that there is a MUTUAL level of ignorance regarding language culture that affects BOTH sides not just the Black.

In addition, it might be helpful if you seach your own archives at MM in which one Korean minister had a totally different take on the Riots:

http://modelminority.com/article168.html&g...article168.html (http://modelminority.com/article168.html>http://modelminority.com/article168.html)


I'm here to testify that there is no such thing as a Black/Korean problem. The conflict is between a few individuals who represent interests that are ultimately personal, and we can easily attribute most of the blame to the media.

Through the cameras' eyes, Blacks are poverty-stricken, in-your-face, they-had-it-coming-to-them victims of Korean, bloodsucking, me-no-speak-good-English grocers. I cringe when I see yet another report or read another article about another Black boycott of a Korean store.
Did you know that more Hispanic rioters damaged and looted shops in Koreatown than Blacks? Is there a Hispanic/Korean problem? Yes, to the same degree that there is a Black/Korean problem.

I am not a sociologist. I am not a political scientist. I am not an expert on urban affairs. But believe me, I know what I'm talking about. I am an "Afro-Americanized" Korean preacher who grew up in the Black community of South Central Los Angeles.

But I guess our whole race deserves the usual contempt and disgust becuase we are Black and thus we are doomed to be deviant sub humans.


Everyone knows it was more Latinos involved, but the media plays up the black folks, because the sells papers, it confirms racist ass crackers preexisting stereotype...basically "give the public what they want" and further alienates us from other minority groups, in this case Asians, specifically Koreans. __

[537]

<!--QuoteBegin-TB4000+Jul 9 2003, 06:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TB4000 @ Jul 9 2003, 06:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You can say that I'm playing a race card by assuming that blacks have it worse than asians as far as racial issues in this country, but point out an occurence in history and prove me wrong. [/b][/quote]
There was a time in American History where the phrase 'You don't have a Chinaman's chance in blah-blah-blah....' originated.&nbsp;

I'm sure you're very aware that the railroads of old America were built plank by plank with the hands of Asian men and boys.&nbsp; Sometimes, railroads would need to cut through a hill/mountain, as laying tracks over the obstacle was not feasible.&nbsp; Sticks of dynamite were used to clear passageways.&nbsp; Some cliffs and mountainsides were unreachable from below, so in order to complete their objective, a Chinese male was dangled by a rope to plant the explosives.&nbsp;

Sometimes, the demolitions man was caught in the blast.

Sometimes the demolitions man was not pulled up.&nbsp;

Sometimes, this was for sport, and bets were made.

I'm not saying that we as the asian populace have it any better, or worse.&nbsp; But I'm also saying that the African American population also hasn't had it any better or worse.&nbsp; Our two groups of ancestry have both experienced horrific treatment and unspeakable bigotry.&nbsp; But you have to admit that both ethnic groups also react differently when faced with the same hardship and pain.

[kimpossible]

<!--QuoteBegin-RasFarengi+Jul 23 2003, 02:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Jul 23 2003, 02:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why is it seen as such an Asian/black problem. Way More Mexicans got arrested than blacks during the riots, their were "housing" TV, Stereos, and all kind of stuff running down the street.

The media plays up the Black V whoever angle becaue it sales...Mexicans were rarely mentioned to my knowledge.

[/b][/quote]
Oh weird. The reason I say that is where I live most of the decent fobby Chinese grocery stores have a laaarge Mexican clientele as well. Not that I've heard a lot of fobs have particularly kind words for Mexicans in general but the grocery stores have about 20% of the store dedicated to Mexican foods. And, the butchers are Mexican but can speak enough Mandarin to ask if you want the fish cleaned. One place down the street from me the owner is learning Spanish to help an overwhelming amount of Mexican customers.

Don't know how it is down in Cali.

[RasFarengi]

Hello_Hapa:

I was in Junior High when the riots popped off, and I still remember on TV seeing this Mexican guy running down the street with a TV, he wasn't Chicano, pure Mexican straight from the border, dumb mofo actually stopped for the news reporter to give an interview, while still holding a TV...they asked him what was going on...he said something like (been a long time but I will paraphrase)...

"Oh...I don't know...I seen thee policas and I started to running..."

I swear to God, with a thick ass accent, I was rollin'...even my dad was rollin'...that is about all I remember about the LA riots (lived in VA at the time) besides Reginald Denning getting brained with a brick and pulled out a damn semi (still don't understand how a person with in a Semi could possible get assulted, but...anyway)...

I do remember something about people putting signs up saying "Black Owned Business in one area, and they were not black...

To be honest I didn't learn much about what really went down to later and I met someone who was actually part of the Marine Reserves who was sent their to restore order (black guy I met in Japan of all places...he speaks KOrean, he was trained by the military)...he is a moderator at Blacktokyo.com..speaks fluent Korean(trained by the military, he is black) and from what I know...there were many a Mexican tearing shit up out there.

Like I said, in America "race sells." Especially anything having to do with black people acting up...or black people verses another group. That is headlines.

Mexicans and Koreans acting a fool doesn't sell a lot of papers.

[Cipherous]

<!--QuoteBegin-RasFarengi+Jul 23 2003, 02:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Jul 23 2003, 02:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Mexicans and Koreans acting a fool doesn't sell a lot of papers. [/b][/quote]
So the riots were twisted for entertainment value?

It doesn't make sense, why would Newspapers such as the Washington post and NY time play this event that was witnessed by thousands and thousands of live witnesses?&nbsp;

[RasFarengi]

Well it is not really "twisting..." there were black rioters, definately.

The point is what the media choses to focus on.

It makes plenty of sense, have you forgotten you live in a captialist society where the media is a business like any others?

A black man was beaten by the police, a black girl was shot weeks before by Koreans...then the riots start...it is all losely black ghetto South Central related, but the reality is the majority of rioters were probably not black, they were Latino, mostly Mexicans I assume.

That is backed up by factual data, researced by well respected think tanks like "The Rand" group.


The truth is Mexicans and Koreans don't sell. America is racially stratified and polarized country, one side being black the other white...anything concerning those two groups is big news, especially when they aren't getting along. Blacks "having issues" and rioting, acting a fool is news...big news...it sells papers and it gets big TV viewership.

yeah there were many eyewitnesses, look back at that post, one of them was a Korean Minister, he was an eyewitness, and he said something different from what you commonly heard in the media, and he was probably interviewed by a newspaper...but...being that his interview was probably judged, "not really news worthy or not sensational enough" it was ignored.

Man the media has been doing this for awhile, I rarely take anything I see on TV or read in the newspaper at face value, I question everything, and leave my mind open, because i know the media is bias.


My question is that it has been analyzed and reanalyzed a bazillion times why black people rioted, problems between black and Korean shop owners, etc...WHY THE HELL WERE THE MEXICANS RIOTING IN SUCH HIGH NUMBERS?!?

[rakovlam]

WHY THE HELL WERE THE MEXICANS RIOTING IN SUCH HIGH NUMBERS?!?

Because they are Mexicans.&nbsp; They (most of them) illegally come to Calfornia, live on its generous welfare system (I immigrated here legally 12 years ago next week and I'm getting zilch for financial aid for college.&nbsp; Meanwhile, some illegal immigrants are getting breaks) while having no respect for Americans and American laws.&nbsp; Most Mexicans wouldn't call themselves Americans and have loyalties to Mexico.&nbsp; Many politicians (including our president) doesn't seem to understand the illegal part of illegal immigrants so Mexicans (and many other groups) continue to pour into the US.&nbsp; The Mexicans joined in the looting because, for one thing, they can care less about American citizens and legal immigrants.

[kasia]

<!--QuoteBegin-RasFarengi+Jul 23 2003, 04:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Jul 23 2003, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A black man was beaten by the police, a black girl was shot weeks before by Koreans...then the riots start... [/b][/quote]
I agree that the media twists facts. But if you're going to hold the media to a std for truth - perhaps you should hold yourself to a similar std.

Latasha Harlins was shot by in an act of self-defense by a Korean woman, not a bunch of Koreans.

It is all loosely black ghetto South Central related, but the reality is the majority of rioters were probably not black, they were Latino, mostly Mexicans I assume. That is backed up by factual data, researced by well respected think tanks like "The Rand" group.

Where's the link? B/c, from here, it sure seemed like the majority were black. Many of the Mexicans worked at the Korean stores & were assisting in protecting them (of course, many were also looting).

The truth is Mexicans and Koreans don't sell. America is racially stratified and polarized country, one side being black the other white...anything concerning those two groups is big news, especially when they aren't getting along. Blacks "having issues" and rioting, acting a fool is news...big news...it sells papers and it gets big TV viewership.

Perhaps. But it's not like they weren't looting. They were.

My question is that it has been analyzed and reanalyzed a bazillion times why black people rioted, problems between black and Korean shop owners, etc...WHY THE HELL WERE THE MEXICANS RIOTING IN SUCH HIGH NUMBERS?!?

Cause they're poor. And because the same problems that existed between Blacks & Koreans existed between Blacks & Mexicans, but to a lesser extent.

Here's a question I've always wanted to ask - Here in Koreatown (where I live) but also in Japantown & Chinatown, we always see Mexicans working in the restaurants, grocery stores, etc. Many of them speak the language (as HH mentioned). Blacks, on the other hand, are also in the neighborhood, but I usually see them just hanging around, opening doors for ppl and such. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a Black employee or waiter in any of the aforementioned towns. This isn't a recent phenonmenon. I asked my mom about this when I was younger, because I was curious as to whether it was because Asians were discriminatory against Blacks or what. Have you guys noticed the same thing?

[Cipherous]

<!--QuoteBegin-rakovlam+Jul 23 2003, 04:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (rakovlam @ Jul 23 2003, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Because they are Mexicans. They (most of them) illegally come to Calfornia, live on its generous welfare system (I immigrated here legally 12 years ago next week and I'm getting zilch for financial aid for college. Meanwhile, some illegal immigrants are getting breaks) while having no respect for Americans and American laws. Most Mexicans wouldn't call themselves Americans and have loyalties to Mexico. Many politicians (including our president) doesn't seem to understand the illegal part of illegal immigrants so Mexicans (and many other groups) continue to pour into the US. The Mexicans joined in the looting because, for one thing, they can care less about American citizens and legal immigrants. [/b][/quote]
Most Mexicans wouldn't call themselves Americans and have loyalties to Mexico.&nbsp; Many politicians

Ok, now you're stereotyping.&nbsp; If you can say that about Mexicans than you can say that about Asians as well.&nbsp;

Alot of Latinos (Mexicans included) actually make up a good minority in the US military.&nbsp; So its not like all Mexicans side with their home country rather then the US.


(I immigrated here legally 12 years ago next week and I'm getting zilch for financial aid for college.&nbsp; Meanwhile, some illegal immigrants are getting breaks

if you migrated legally from Asia, its most likely you're in the upper echealon of whatever Asian society you came from.&nbsp; Thus, money wouldn't be as big of an issue for you as some "illegal" immigrants.

Also, its not like Chinese or Vietnamese aren't smuggled to Canada or the US either.&nbsp; So Asians just as well could be illegals also.&nbsp;

[RasFarengi]

Kasia:

Here you go:

OF course the onus is on Black people. We were the ones that have made the lot of Korean Americans so hard, because we are so monstrous, uneducated, sub-humans. I guess you forgot to consider that Hispanics, especially illegals, made up over half of the arrests while Blacks made up only a third:

http://racerelations.about.com/gi/dynamic/...m/gi....te=http

“A Rand Corp. analysis found that most of the 10,000 people arrested were young men; more than half were Latino, and about a third were black.”



Also look here...Miami Herald has the same article

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/3149454.htm


I don't think the Rand Corp was lying, they are well respected.

Latinos were causing more crime than blacks in the LA riots.

[kasia]

<!--QuoteBegin-RasFarengi+Jul 23 2003, 05:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Jul 23 2003, 05:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Kasia:

Here you go:

OF course the onus is on Black people. We were the ones that have made the lot of Korean Americans so hard, because we are so monstrous, uneducated, sub-humans. I guess you forgot to consider that Hispanics, especially illegals, made up over half of the arrests while Blacks made up only a third:

http://racerelations.about.com/gi/dynamic/...m/gi....te=http

“A Rand Corp. analysis found that most of the 10,000 people arrested were young men; more than half were Latino, and about a third were black.”
[/b][/quote]
thanks for the link.&nbsp; keep in mind, however, that that doesn't indicate that there were more Mexican looters.&nbsp; only more were arrested.&nbsp; that doesn't say much considering the number of cops there were in k-town during the riots (i.e., none).

[RasFarengi]

Kasia:

Okay I gave you the full article from the Miami post, I updated the original post, so look again.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

<!--QuoteBegin-kasia+Jul 23 2003, 05:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kasia @ Jul 23 2003, 05:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-RasFarengi+Jul 23 2003, 05:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Jul 23 2003, 05:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Kasia:

Here you go:

OF course the onus is on Black people. We were the ones that have made the lot of Korean Americans so hard, because we are so monstrous, uneducated, sub-humans. I guess you forgot to consider that Hispanics, especially illegals, made up over half of the arrests while Blacks made up only a third:

http://racerelations.about.com/gi/dynamic/...m/gi....te=http

“A Rand Corp. analysis found that most of the 10,000 people arrested were young men; more than half were Latino, and about a third were black.”
[/b][/quote]
thanks for the link. keep in mind, however, that that doesn't indicate that there were more Mexican looters. only more were arrested. that doesn't say much considering the number of cops there were in k-town during the riots (i.e., none). [/b][/quote]
True this is not proof that there were more Mexican looters than black looters, but since there were absolutely no cops in K-town at the time of the riots, I don't see how one could assume or arrive at the conclusion that Mexican looters would be more likely to get caught or arrested than black looters.

[RasFarengi]

Then where did all these Mexicans arrest come from...innocent Mexicans were just taken from there homes and arrested by the LAPD or National Guard?&nbsp; Come on...over half of those arrested were Mexican, only 1/3 were black, and their were thousands of arrest...that tells me a hell of a lot of Mexicans were on the street, unless you are saying LAPD were bias in favor of blacks, and let them go, and just focused on Mexicans.

[kasia]

<!--QuoteBegin-RasFarengi+Jul 23 2003, 05:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Jul 23 2003, 05:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The Rand group is not some Graduate study paper nonsense, it is a well respected think tank, they do work for the government, and many corporations...if it is not accurate it is as close to accurate as humanly possible, but if you want to be in denial that's cool.

Ever think those Mexicans working in Korea town, were busy casing the place, waiting for some shit to pop off some they can call their hommies to come get the money out in the confusion. Yeah people do stuff like that... [/b][/quote]
yes, thank you for informing me about what the Rand Corporation is.&nbsp; i don't know how old you are - but if you can recall your college years - the Rand Corp was the very group that we were taught not to believe.&nbsp; who runs it?&nbsp; many of their studies are used to support policies that harm...Blacks.&nbsp; i find it interesting that you would think this group is well-respected.

and if this info isn't accurate, it wouldn't be the first time that they skewed their studies.&nbsp; (think about the arguments the govt can make with these facts.&nbsp; they can deny a race problem in america.&nbsp; they can blame the riots on primariliy economic factors.&nbsp; etc. etc.)

[SunWuKong]

<!--QuoteBegin-Cipherous+Jul 23 2003, 09:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cipherous @ Jul 23 2003, 09:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if you migrated legally from Asia, its most likely you're in the upper echealon of whatever Asian society you came from. Thus, money wouldn't be as big of an issue for you as some "illegal" immigrants. [/b][/quote]
sorry man, but there is such a thing as allowing immigration because relatives of yours are US citizens.&nbsp; many of these legal immigrants are very poor.&nbsp; and even if they were middle class back in Asia, because they were making money at the rate of whatever Asian country they were from, relatively speaking, that is not much compared to what people make in the US (because people in the US make more money and spend more money).&nbsp; even the PhD students from China that come to study in the US are very poor.&nbsp; my colleague did that and he had a total of $400 USD in his name when he came to the US to study.

i don't know about Australia, but the US doesn't allow immigration just because you have money to invest, unlike Canada.

[SunWuKong]

ok, anyway...

no offense, but this new information about Mexicans and blacks in the LA riots doesn't make much difference in my own personal opinions about the LA riots.

so more Mexicans than blacks looted from Koreans. oh great. doesn't make a damn difference to the fact that Koreans still got looted by other minority groups. no, they didn't get looted by white people. so you tell me what racial group(s) Asian people should be wary of.

[AngryABCGirl]

<!--QuoteBegin-kasia+Jul 23 2003, 05:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kasia @ Jul 23 2003, 05:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I agree that the media twists facts. But if you're going to hold the media to a std for truth - perhaps you should hold yourself to a similar std.

Latasha Harlins was shot by in an act of self-defense by a Korean woman, not a bunch of Koreans.



Where's the link? B/c, from here, it sure seemed like the majority were black. Many of the Mexicans worked at the Korean stores & were assisting in protecting them (of course, many were also looting).



Perhaps. But it's not like they weren't looting. They were.



Cause they're poor. And because the same problems that existed between Blacks & Koreans existed between Blacks & Mexicans, but to a lesser extent.

Here's a question I've always wanted to ask - Here in Koreatown (where I live) but also in Japantown & Chinatown, we always see Mexicans working in the restaurants, grocery stores, etc. Many of them speak the language (as HH mentioned). Blacks, on the other hand, are also in the neighborhood, but I usually see them just hanging around, opening doors for ppl and such. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a Black employee or waiter in any of the aforementioned towns. This isn't a recent phenonmenon. I asked my mom about this when I was younger, because I was curious as to whether it was because Asians were discriminatory against Blacks or what. Have you guys noticed the same thing? [/b][/quote]
I agree with you, the Mexicans who were looting were looking because they were poor, not because they were Mexican.&nbsp; A lot of Mexicans joined the looting simply because they could.&nbsp; I think if the LA riots happened today. Mexicans might have been victims too because of increased tension and "Black flight" since then.

I've noticed a lot of Mexican workers here too in Asian restaurants in the SG Valley, and some of the owners seem to understand a little Spanish while the workers understand some Chinese.&nbsp;

One of my friend's parents who own a restaurant said he liked hiring immigrant workers, Mexican or recent fobs from China because they tended to work harder, were more dependable, and wanted to advance over local kids and people who were born here because they tended to be less dilligent, more picky, slobby, etc.&nbsp; There aren't a whole lot of Black people here, but I suspect that Asians wouldn't hire Blacks for the same reason they won't hire ABC kids, immigrants work harder, and there's probably hate on both sides too.&nbsp;

[littlebutfierce]

Hey, I would totally recommend that anyone who hasn't read Asian American Dreams by Helen Zia go do so--or @ least her chapter on the LA riots. This chapter (actually it runs through the book in general, like when she's talking about