Discrimination/Racism

[AliBabaIncorporated]

edit: this thread was split from another thread in Hello Hapas

- SunWuKung




No offense, but the main effect of Asian mixing in Hawaii seems to have been that any time race comes up, all Hawaii Asians in the mainland like to cluck their tongues, berate Americans for their racism, and loudly proclaim, "In Hawaii, we don't think about race like this!" While in the mean time their compatriots back in the islands are yelling "haole go home." If the US turns into that, I'm leaving. Hell, sometimes California is already turning even worse, with AAs claiming they're so anti-racist and tolerant and everything is all whitey media's fault, then turning around to go jump a hapa or call a girl a slut for dating a black guy.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jun 24 2003, 03:28 PM
No offense, but the main effect of Asian mixing in Hawaii seems to have been that any time race comes up, all Hawaii Asians in the mainland like to cluck their tongues, berate Americans for their racism, and loudly proclaim, "In Hawaii, we don't think about race like this!" While in the mean time their compatriots back in the islands are yelling "haole go home." If the US turns into that, I'm leaving. Hell, sometimes California is already turning even worse, with AAs claiming they're so anti-racist and tolerant and everything is all whitey media's fault, then turning around to go jump a hapa or call a girl a slut for dating a black guy.
I'm not too versed on Hawaiian history too much, but it is my understanding that most Asians in Hawaii are not of Hawaiian ethnic origin. Is it true that Asian Americans in Hawaii actually tell white people "haole go home"? How hypocritical. They themselves are "newcomers" to Hawaii, and not part of the indegenous population. They are as detrimental to the loss of hawaiian culture as White Americans are.

[myself808]

No offense, but the main effect of Asian mixing in Hawaii seems to have been that any time race comes up, all Hawaii Asians in the mainland like to cluck their tongues, berate Americans for their racism, and loudly proclaim, "In Hawaii, we don't think about race like this!" While in the mean time their compatriots back in the islands are yelling "haole go home." If the US turns into that, I'm leaving. Hell, sometimes California is already turning even worse, with AAs claiming they're so anti-racist and tolerant and everything is all whitey media's fault, then turning around to go jump a hapa or call a girl a slut for dating a black guy. I'm not too versed on Hawaiian history too much, but it is my understanding that most Asians in Hawaii are not of Hawaiian ethnic origin. Is it true that Asian Americans in Hawaii actually tell white people "haole go home"? How hypocritical. They themselves are "newcomers" to Hawaii, and not part of the indegenous population. They are as detrimental to the loss of hawaiian culture as White Americans are
Actually, the "haole go home" thing is more of a native Hawaiian screed than local asain thing. However, being the majority, the Asain population will act like, well, the majority and start discriminating against the minority, namely white poeple. The tounge clucking is the same as what some white people do, it's easy for the majority to say Oppression? discrimination? where? I don't see that where I'm standing, its more like a projection of their views than objective observance. I do believe that on the whole Hawaii is a bit more tolerant of differing races than most other places in the US, but its not one big happy melting pot either. ( I usually get in trouble with these type of generalizations but oh well).

It is true that most Asains are not of Hawaiian ancestry, the reverse is not. The vast majority of native Hawaiians are mixed, many will cite five or more ethnicities, and a native Hawaiian with 100% blood quantum is actually rare.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by myself808@Jun 25 2003, 10:11 PM
Actually, the "haole go home" thing is more of a native Hawaiian screed than local asain thing. However, being the majority, the Asain population will act like, well, the majority and start discriminating against the minority, namely white poeple. The tounge clucking is the same as what some white people do, it's easy for the majority to say Oppression? discrimination? where?
White people hardly believe their own society to be free of oppression and discrimination. Plenty of white people support affirmative action and an 89% white supreme court just cemented it into place. In contrast, I rarely meet a Hawaii Asian who thinks he is anything but the paragon of diversity and tolerance to which all us racist mainlanders, Asian and white alike, should look up.

[myself808]

Yes white people know discrimination exists, yet many have either not had any direct experience with it, or, more likely have never been on the recieving end of it. One of the typical reactions when a white person comes here and is discriminated against is that they are genuinely shocked, and amazed that "this kind of thing happens here" and "I've never experienced anything like this back home"
I have never met, nor heard of, anyone who has said I am "the paragon of diversity and tolerance to which all [you] racist mainlanders, Asian and white alike, should look up." and since I personally cannot read other peoples minds I have no way of knowing if they actually think this. Maybe those who you have met are exaggerating, maybe they are being a bit hypocritical, maybe they are like those people from that large east coast city who act as if their city is the be all and end all of civilization. Or maybe they are paragons. Or maybe they had the termity to dare suggest that they just might be more racially tolerant. Or maybe you were exaggerating a bit ;) to make a point. I still would argue that in general,(which is not to say all or every, but for the most part), people in Hawaii are more tolerant because no one ethnic group has an overwhelming majority. (in my earlier post I stated Asains were the majority ethnic group, turns out I was wrong, Asains are the largest but not over 50%). Our State Governors have been White, Japanese, Native Hawaiian, Filipino, and currently a Jewish Woman (part Jewish part white to be accurate). Again, Hawaii is far, from being the big happy melting pot where everybody gets along all the time, discrimination does exist, but IMO it is a bit more tolerant due to diversity.

2000 Census Bureau stats:
------------------ US---HI---CA

White persons: 75.1 24.3 59.5
Asian persons : 3.6 41.6 10.9
Persons reporting
2 or more races: 2.4 21.4 4.7

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by myself808@Jun 27 2003, 10:53 AM
Again, Hawaii is far, from being the big happy melting pot where everybody gets along all the time, discrimination does exist, but IMO it is a bit more tolerant due to diversity.

If diversity were all it took to have tolerance then my area, DC, would be the most tolerant in the world, since it is afterall probably the most diverse metropolitan area in the country.

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jun 29 2003, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by myself808@Jun 27 2003, 10:53 AM
Again, Hawaii is far, from being the big happy melting pot where everybody gets along all the time, discrimination does exist, but IMO it is a bit more tolerant due to diversity.

If diversity were all it took to have tolerance then my area, DC, would be the most tolerant in the world, since it is afterall probably the most diverse metropolitan area in the country.
Yeah, it depends on how and where the diversity is too. I have the impression Hawaii isn't that hard of a place to live... it is as what most people would call a paradise by on the mainland, so questions of friction toward race are more likely to be downplayed too. You'd think Los Angeles would be great because of its "diversity" too, but the whole city is seperated over and over again in ethnic neighborhoods.

[myself808]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@Jun 29 2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jun 29 2003, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by myself808@Jun 27 2003, 10:53 AM
Again, Hawaii is far, from being the big happy melting pot where everybody gets along all the time, discrimination does exist, but IMO it is a bit more tolerant due to diversity.

If diversity were all it took to have tolerance then my area, DC, would be the most tolerant in the world, since it is afterall probably the most diverse metropolitan area in the country.
Yeah, it depends on how and where the diversity is too. I have the impression Hawaii isn't that hard of a place to live... it is as what most people would call a paradise by on the mainland, so questions of friction toward race are more likely to be downplayed too. You'd think Los Angeles would be great because of its "diversity" too, but the whole city is seperated over and over again in ethnic neighborhoods.
You know, AzNBuffGrL, I think you have a point there. Admittedly, life is a bit more relaxed here, I guess we're just not as uptight as the rest of y'all, besides how pissed off can you be sitting on the beach, watching the sunset, dressed in a t-shirt and shorts, in December :D

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by myself808@Jul 1 2003, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@Jun 29 2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jun 29 2003, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by myself808@Jun 27 2003, 10:53 AM
Again, Hawaii is far, from being the big happy melting pot where everybody gets along all the time, discrimination does exist, but IMO it is a bit more tolerant due to diversity.

If diversity were all it took to have tolerance then my area, DC, would be the most tolerant in the world, since it is afterall probably the most diverse metropolitan area in the country.
Yeah, it depends on how and where the diversity is too. I have the impression Hawaii isn't that hard of a place to live... it is as what most people would call a paradise by on the mainland, so questions of friction toward race are more likely to be downplayed too. You'd think Los Angeles would be great because of its "diversity" too, but the whole city is seperated over and over again in ethnic neighborhoods.
You know, AzNBuffGrL, I think you have a point there. Admittedly, life is a bit more relaxed here, I guess we're just not as uptight as the rest of y'all, besides how pissed off can you be sitting on the beach, watching the sunset, dressed in a t-shirt and shorts, in December :D
Well from her description of where she lives, evil whitey is trying to pull her over for nothing every day, trying to keep her out of college, sexually idolizing her, and being so politically incorrect to the point that her life is a living hell. I don't call that relaxed.

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 1 2003, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by myself808@Jul 1 2003, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@Jun 29 2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jun 29 2003, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by myself808@Jun 27 2003, 10:53 AM
Again, Hawaii is far, from being the big happy melting pot where everybody gets along all the time, discrimination does exist, but IMO it is a bit more tolerant due to diversity.

If diversity were all it took to have tolerance then my area, DC, would be the most tolerant in the world, since it is afterall probably the most diverse metropolitan area in the country.
Yeah, it depends on how and where the diversity is too. I have the impression Hawaii isn't that hard of a place to live... it is as what most people would call a paradise by on the mainland, so questions of friction toward race are more likely to be downplayed too. You'd think Los Angeles would be great because of its "diversity" too, but the whole city is seperated over and over again in ethnic neighborhoods.
You know, AzNBuffGrL, I think you have a point there. Admittedly, life is a bit more relaxed here, I guess we're just not as uptight as the rest of y'all, besides how pissed off can you be sitting on the beach, watching the sunset, dressed in a t-shirt and shorts, in December :D
Well from her description of where she lives, evil whitey is trying to pull her over for nothing every day, trying to keep her out of college, sexually idolizing her, and being so politically incorrect to the point that her life is a living hell. I don't call that relaxed.
Yeah, I should probably move to Hawaii and get that stick of reality out of my ass. :dance:

[BeTheReds]

First you need to take off the "evil whitey is out to get me" blindfold and realize that the stick is only a stick of percieved reality and it will vanish once you stop generalizing an entire race of people based on the actions of the people of that race you come in contact with, which isn't much I assume since you only come in contact with whitey when you need to..., cops, school administrators random racists who stick out in your mind for being randomly racist at you...etc...

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 2 2003, 12:27 AM
First you need to take off the "evil whitey is out to get me" blindfold and realize that the stick is only a stick of percieved reality and it will vanish once you stop generalizing an entire race of people based on the actions of the people of that race you come in contact with, which isn't much I assume since you only come in contact with whitey when you need to..., cops, school administrators random racists who stick out in your mind for being randomly racist at you...etc...
I've never once said that "evil whitey" is out to get me, although I've had a lot bad experiences with white people, it's not like I hate all of them becuase I've had bad experiences with Mexicans and Blacks too and especially other Asians because no matter what color, people are capable of great human cruelty beyond simple issues of race, and since I've been around Asians most of my life, there you go.

But most institutional racism stems from mainstream American society, which usually ends up equating white people. But despite that I believe it is the egotiscal side of American psyche that keeps saying it's "Number one!" and believes it's right and superior and a savior that causes a lot of discrimination rather than the color white itself.

Sure I might have not had the best experiences with a whole lot of white people, but it's not like I've not met any nice white people who don't have that high horse attitude a lot of Americans end up programmed with, but unfortunately a lot of people do have that attitude, and that attitude perpuates and causes problems in the world and thinks it's the world's savior. That attitude is what I have problem with, not with all white people.

If you were white and you asked me directions on the street today, I'd be nice to you as I'd be to another Chinese. But you start saying how exotic I look or start saying America is doing everything right in the world,I'll cringe and say whatever dude and give you directions rudely. You start saying that China is backwards or watn to take me out to get to know my culture, I might walk away. If you where Chinese and you started insulting me for whatever reason saying rudely that I'm a jokl sing or insult me, you'd get my wrath too. But it's all behavior rather than color.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@Jul 2 2003, 03:52 AM
But most institutional racism stems from mainstream American society, which usually ends up equating white people. But despite that I believe it is the egotiscal side of American psyche that keeps saying it's "Number one!" and believes it's right and superior and a savior that causes a lot of discrimination rather than the color white itself.
Except for the fact that mainstream American society has been a lot nicer to its minorities than the mainstreams of other societies ever had been.

Try coming to Malaysia sometime. Just like the US, we're a society of immigrants. You've said before that being in the majority makes white people racist, but, that maybe Asians would be just as racist if they were in the majority.

In fact, they're even more fucking racist than anything you've ever had to encounter in your sheltered life.

If the US government tries to give any money to a church, even as part of a non-profit grant, people come out of the woodworks to complain, many of them Christian. Putting the ten commandments anywhere on school property will get you sued. In Malaysia, the majority ethnicity institutionalized their religion as the official state religion, conducts religion classes in public schools (which non-Muslims can opt out of only to take these thinly disguised proselytizing "Moral Education" classes) and handed various judicial and law enforcement powers over to private religious bodies. Religious police on occasion enforce Islamic "proximity" laws (prohibiting unmarried Muslim men and women from being alone together) against non-Muslims, even breaking into hotel rooms, and receive no official reprimand whatsoever.

In the US, a person arguing against a law on the grounds that the Bible forbids the behavior in question (abortion, etc) is laughed at. In Kelantan (a state in northern Malaysia), the local government requires men and women have to stand at separate check-out lines in the grocery stores, because the Koran states that men and women should be separate.

In the US, white people themselves in a 90% white country voted in the 1965 immigration act which let the ancestors of the majority of today's Asian-American population into the country, and make no serious effort to deport millions of culturally dissimilar Mexican illegals. In Malaysia, as soon as the ethnic Malays won independence and got control of their immigration policy back from the British, the first thing they did was institute a "good character" requirement for immigrants, which they used to exclude Chinese and Indians, even for purposes of family reunification, while explicitly granting visa-free entry to Muslims and then quietly declining to prosecute them for illegal overstay.

In the USA, white people instituted affirmative action for blacks and Hispanics, who were less well off than white people. People are still allowed to demand more special concessions and privileges for minorities; those who oppose them are derided as racist. In Malaysia, the Malays legally enshrined affirmative action for themselves and made it illegal to question it, while in the mean time virtually excluding Indians, who were even worse off than them.

The USA has two college "entrance exams" both at about the same difficulty: the ACT and the SAT. Anyone can take either one. Malaysia also has two college entrance exams: Sijil Tinggi Persekolahan Malaysia (Malaysia Higher Educational Certificate), which is acknowledged to be even harder than the British A-levels, and which anyone can take. They also have a dumbed down version called Matrikulasi, which only Malays can take, but which receives equal weight as the STPM.

The US government refuses funding to high schools which discriminate against minority students. Even a private test prep school which refused minority students would find itself harassed by the EEOC and could be sued. The Malaysian government has set up college preparatory schools funded by taxpayer dollars which only Malays can attend; Chinese and Indians are excluded.

The San Francisco Bay Area has dual-immersion bilingual programs in public schools designed not only for immigrants to learn English, but for local minority students to maintain their heritage languages. Anyone who wants to can start a private school teaching Chinese. The Malaysian government refuses to give one cent to Chinese schools or Tamil schools, recognized their graduation certificates as legal qualification to enter public universities only under intense pressure, and drags its feet on approving building permits for new Chinese private schools.

A few thousand Chinese railroad workers and Japanese immigrants notwithstanding, America has always been an overwhelmingly white nation, and has only had a few decades to accomodate itself to the huge influx of culturally and racially distinct immigrants which left the country less than 7/10 white and California less than half. Yet compared to other countries, as the above examples show, white people are doing what they can to make life easier for the newcomers to their society. And all most Asian-Americans can do is complain that whites are unrepentant racists who cling resolutely to "white privilege." And yet, you are free to complain all you want, as long as you don't destroy property or disrupt public order.

Malaysia? It's been over a quarter non-Malay ever since the late 1800s, but after almost a century and a quarter, the Malay in the street shows no sign of giving an inch on his privileges in society. And they harass and arrest independent journalists who dare question his position.

[BeTheReds]

Of course you realise, Eric, that any attempt to show racism in societies in Asia no matter how relevant to the argument will be countered with. "What does racism in Asia have anything to do with racism in the USA?" Then you will hear "If you don't like it, then you don't have to go there.. I was BORN in America, I have no choice!" Yet if anyone ever says once.. "If you don't like racism in America why don't you go back to Asia, where you won't be discriminated against so much?" is immediately declared a racist, no matter what the intentions of the question were.

Remember, we tried to use it by talking about all the Japanese Koreans and Chinese is white and black face all over Asia on TV and our arguments were declared irrelavant because that's foreign media which Americans don't watch.

However, your post was informative and interesting.

[AngryABCGirl]

So I should just accept the bad parts of mainstream America just because it isn't as bad as another country's? That makes as about much sense as people who praise the system even when it doesn't work sometimes and needs reforms "because it's the best thing out there." Why not demand better? Hasn't demanding better what got American society to improve itself from what it was in the 50s to what it is today? Hasn't every invention man every molded been based on the question, how can so-and-so be better?

What did this have to do with the "evil whitey" thing anyway?

Either way, it's a disrespectful thing to say if someone yelled it to me on the street because it's like I don't deserve to just be there no matter what color the person is. As for not liking racism and going back to Asia, doesn't seem like a horrible plan to me. Racism thank god isn't bad enough in my life to make me want to flee the country though, but that combined with other factors like family and probably future job opportunies in China, would make me say why not Asia in the future.

[MellowDrama]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@Jul 2 2003, 04:20 AM
So I should just accept the bad parts of mainstream America just because it isn't as bad as another country's? That makes as about much sense as people who praise the system even when it doesn't work sometimes and needs reforms "because it's the best thing out there." Why not demand better? Hasn't demanding better what got American society to improve itself from what it was in the 50s to what it is today? Hasn't every invention man every molded been based on the question, how can so-and-so be better?

What did this have to do with the "evil whitey" thing anyway?

Either way, it's a disrespectful thing to say if someone yelled it to me on the street because it's like I don't deserve to just be there no matter what color the person is. As for not liking racism and going back to Asia, doesn't seem like a horrible plan to me. Racism thank god isn't bad enough in my life to make me want to flee the country though, but that combined with other factors like family and probably future job opportunies in China, would make me say why not Asia in the future.
Yay! :)

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@Jul 2 2003, 05:20 AM
So I should just accept the bad parts of mainstream America just because it isn't as bad as another country's?
Cuz, noting from the fact that the US system isn't merely better for minorities than one little country barely out of the third world for three decades, but is in fact better for minorities than anything else in the world, maybe this is as good as it gets. After going above and beyond equal rights to grant special concessions to minorities for decades in immigration, college admissions, government contracting, employment, etc. ever think that white people are at the very least gonna get sick of all the whining about minor shit like what happens in the movies, the fact that government phone hotlines aren't staffed by people who speak 53 different languages, the claims that a particularly policy is "deliberately racist" merely because it has a disparate racial impact, and the constant "whiteness studies" that pegs them as the root of all evil in American society and even in the international realm when as the Malaysia example repeatedly demonstrates, American whites are more concerned with equality than any other majority in the world, even when the minorities they face are so damn racist ...

Hasn't demanding better what got American society to improve itself from what it was in the 50s to what it is today?
For example, there were barely any immigrants in the country to demand "improvement" at the time the 1965 immigrant act was passed. MLK's protests succeeded not because of the blacks he mobilized in the south, but because national television showed what was going on to white viewers in the North and built support for his cause there that Congress couldn't ignore. etc.

[MellowDrama]

But if the Blacks never mobilized there never would have been any CR Act passed at all.

BTW, we're kinda off topic now. Maybe we should start a new thread about racism or civil rights or something, perhaps in the rant forum?

:o

[SunWuKong]

ok i'm splitting and moving the thread.

[Erendani]

I keep seeing this attitude of "most white people in America are not really racist, stop whining" but conversely a very distinct rage against Asians in general (in other countries even) for being racist. Especially, it seems, from Hapas on this board.

Am I just not reading the posts closely enough? Y'all tell me, especially AliBaba and BeTheReds.

I'm really actually very curious about his, because of the few Hapas I've personally got to know, they all complained about racism from white people and felt more comfortable around Asians, even if they looked more white than Asian.

[Erendani]

Let me just extend my point a little bit...

Any hapa's experience with Asian-instigated racism is a legimate topic for discussion on this board. In fact Asian-American-instigated racism is a really terrible thing, because it is so hypocritical, and needs to be stopped.

Likewise, any Asian American's experience with white-instigated racism is a legimate topic for discussion on this board, and shouldn't be dismissed.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by Erendani@Jul 3 2003, 03:13 PM
I keep seeing this attitude of "most white people in America are not really racist, stop whining" but conversely a very distinct rage against Asians in general (in other countries even) for being racist.  Especially, it seems, from Hapas on this board.

Am I just not reading the posts closely enough?  Y'all tell me, especially AliBaba and BeTheReds. 


There's no self-contradiction here. The point is that Asian-Americans are completely hypocritical about their racism.

Also as for the Asian countries where I complain about racism: I actually lived there. They're far more racist than whites in the US. But not much worse than minorities in the US.

White people know there are racist white people. It's trumpeted all over the media. White people accuse each other of being racist if one of them says something bad about minorities. Furthermore there's no political litmus test for being accepted by white people.

In contrast, most hapas know not to talk about racism they faced from Asian-Americans when they're around them. AAs don't even want to admit there are racist AAs; I've even heard bullshit like "It's not possible for AAs to be racist because racism is prejudice plus power" or some bullshit like this. Or they dismiss it as "a few bad apples." Or they claim it's justified.

Hapas are well aware of the deal: if we want to be accepted by Asian-American community, we toe the party line about how white people are racist and only Asians are accepting. Otherwise, you get called whitewashed, accused of "not really understanding what it is to be Asian-American," etc. We're the only ones who have to do this. Hapas can speak an Asian language perfectly and we're still accused of "having an Asian fetish" and get jumped outside parties. In the mean time, Laotians, Filipinos, Indians, Koreans, Guamanians, Samoans, Hawaiians, and even Arabs and whatever other random comers are all "our API brothers and sisters" and issues they face are "Asian-American issues."

And Asian-Americans' main evidence that white people are racist? Having been teased in school, the fact that some Asian refugee groups have really low incomes, Hollywood movies, people who want to take action against illegal immigrants etc. Can't point to one damn policy which is explicitly designed to keep minorities down. I could point to 15 in Malaysia off the top of my head.

You hardly see white people blaming Asians for all their problems. Especially in contrast to other countries, white people in this country are trying their utmost to promote good relations with the other races in their countries and to work together to solve problems, whether by treating everyone the same (conservatives), or offering a special hand up to minorities (democrats). No one says that minorities should be actively discriminated against, held back from certain jobs, etc.

Asian-Americans respond by blaming Evil Whitey for all the problems that remain, even the ones that aren't even remotely his fault.

Then they go on to blame the Media for all their troubles.
Whenever hapas are mentioned in a mainstream Asian publication, it's only in this great hopefulness of pointing out "there are many hapas in America, and if they all identified as Asian-Pacific-Islander-American, then our political power would increase greatly!" Yeah, dream on, fuckers. This hasn't resulted in good treatment for hapas. In the mean time they're busy bashing hapa actors for "not supporting the Asian-American community" and whatever.

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jul 3 2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Erendani@Jul 3 2003, 03:13 PM
I keep seeing this attitude of "most white people in America are not really racist, stop whining" but conversely a very distinct rage against Asians in general (in other countries even) for being racist.  Especially, it seems, from Hapas on this board.

Am I just not reading the posts closely enough?  Y'all tell me, especially AliBaba and BeTheReds. 


There's no self-contradiction here. The point is that Asian-Americans are completely hypocritical about their racism.

I agree, there's a lot of minority hatred in general toward whites. It's not all ALL Asian-Americans hate whites though.

I can see where a lot of it comes from, immigrant families being victimized, marginalization and rejections of culture, etc. A lot of that can cause a pervasive and irrational hate too.

I think a lot of the problems in race in America, both white on non-white and non-white on white stems from the fact that when we are taught not to be racist in America in school and etc., we've always been told "it doesn't matter what the person looks like or where their parents were from, but who they are inside." I have a feeling that concept may have been shortsightly designed for only white-on-black racism. Also if you think about it, every "diversity" type course or even history class taught in American lists a history of white people beating up on other people, but not sending message that it's not ok to hate white people cause of their history because a lot of those people aren't even alive today ie. why a lot of minorities think it's ok to hate white people. A lot of my classmates said they developed this hatefulness toward America after taking American history.

Also, unforunately the real issues the brew underneath the surface that can really seperate people are completely excluded from this statement such as culture and religion. Sexual orientation is completely left out the loop too.

The must assholish thing that I can remember happening on account of race was being at a boarding school type deal and everyone getting along despite a bunch of different races and nationalities in one place until something comes up that's difficult to deal with, like rape, and everyone ends up dealing with it differently. And then you have all these people(it wasn't just white people either) saying, "That's not they way she's supposed to be behaving." The girl was from Taiwan and when I tried to explain why she felt so ashamed and didn't get help and why she didn't want to fell her family because she was embarassed and explain why she was feeling the way she was feeling, nobody could accept it save the other the international students who could grasp a cultural difference may mean a difference in behavior.

We need people to learn that tolerance doesn't mean everything is ok until they don't act like you. "The person inside" is something you have to learn to tolerate too and that goes for everyone.

[Chinese Tourist]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jun 25 2003, 08:40 PM
White people hardly believe their own society to be free of oppression and discrimination. Plenty of white people support affirmative action and an 89% white supreme court just cemented it into place. In contrast, I rarely meet a Hawaii Asian who thinks he is anything but the paragon of diversity and tolerance to which all us racist mainlanders, Asian and white alike, should look up.
but I believe them.

As an Asian, I can feel their vibe, man

I spent my adolescence in another place that had no race - Austin TX

it must have changed by now, 1/3rd of the people are new in the past 6 or 7 years, and of course the Mexicans tend to be poor and do the labor

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jul 3 2003, 09:57 PM
I've even heard bullshit like "It's not possible for AAs to be racist because racism is prejudice plus power" or some bullshit like this.
maybe someone should remind them that they're Asian, and not black.


oooops probably stepped on a few toes there...

[SunWuKong]

anyway, i've experienced racism directly from white people before. but that's only a tiny tiny percentage of the white people i know. mostly i just get annoyed when white Americans can't comprehend or accept cultural differences.

[Erendani]

Wow AliBaba that is a lot of anger, like I suspected.

Let me just say though... I think you have to understand though that some Asian Americans HAVE gone through as much or worse than you at the hands of whites. Everything you have gone through at the hands of Asian Americans... being iced out, being jumped, being harassed, being verbally abused... I have gone through or know an Asian American who has gone through at the hands of whites.

I don't know of too many whites who get bullied, harassed, and/or beaten at the hands of Asians or Asian Americans, let alone killed by Asian Americans. But I know plenty of Asians Americans who have been bullied, harassed, and/or beaten by white guys, myself included. And the accounts of serious hate crimes against Asian Americans by whites FAR outstrip the accounts of hate crimes against whites by Asian Americans.

Like I said, you seem to be saying that the only type of racism that American white people display is a very mild form of discrimination, while Asians display a very evil and malicious form of racism, such as physical beatings and segregationist government policies. You seem to be saying that whites are never racist towards Asian Americans in any significant fashion. You seem to also be saying that white racists are few and far between, while Asian Americans are generally racist hypocrites.

I would have to say, I very strongly disagree. Please drop the "Evil Whitey" sarcasm because white racism is just as real and strong as Asian racism. You forget that the USA was founded on racism, and sustained by racism until very recently, in fact historically one of the most racist nations of all time. The result is that there is a strong undercurrent of racism that still lives on in this country, under the surface if no longer out in the open.

Just because you have personally faced more racism by Asians Americans, and not by white Americans, doesn't mean white racism doesn't exist, or is very mild. You cannot simply dismiss the Asian people on this board who complain about white racism with a sarcastic "stop whining about evil whitey" comment... I find that to be very unconstructive and even hypocritical attitude.

However, I WILL say that I am greatly disturbed that you did suffer racism at all by Asian Americans. I can tell you honestly that this saddens me, because I had no idea this is happening. I knew that Asians in Asia are very racist... and therefore Asian immigrants can be very racist... but I was not aware of there being so much malicious racism instigated by Asian Americans towards whites and hapas. This needs to stop.

But white racism needs to stop as well. And I don't just mean "teasing Asians in school." Because if you think that is the full extent of white racism you are very badly mistaken.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by Erendani@Jul 3 2003, 10:43 PM
Let me just say though... I think you have to understand though that some Asian Americans HAVE gone through as much or worse than you at the hands of whites. Everything you have gone through at the hands of Asian Americans... being iced out, being jumped, being harassed, being verbally abused... I have gone through or know an Asian American who has gone through at the hands of whites.
Having been attacked is justification to ask for increased police protection, or maybe community resolution programs, or something. When people live in fear of violence, they want a means of defending themselves. What do we see AAs actually doing to combat violence against Asians? They complain about the media and act as though eliminating all the images of Asians they don't like from the public sphere would suddenly have some effect on violence. That suggests to me that they're not really serious about worrying about the violence; they just want to use it as an excuse to assert raw power of censorship over Hollywood.

You don't see white people calling for censorship of Asian-American media every time they present a distorted image of white people. And many hapas know it wouldn't matter anyway. Asian-American English-language media doesn't spread stereotypes about us --- hardly mention us at all. Violence and exclusion continue as usual, unless we're willing to put on an anti-white stance and support all the leftist political stances that are popular among AA political leaders.

Just like a fucking house nigger, imitate massa or you'll get thrown back in the field, while AAs can gain high positions in mainstream society without having to pretend nothing is wrong with that society. What really kills me is that everyone who checked off "white" and "Asian" on the census got counted only as an Asian. At the insistence of AA political leaders, no less. So us hapas are inflating the count of AAs in the country, getting your damn non-profits more money and more influence, while no one deals with our issues unless they coincide with AA issues. In the meantime we see AA demonization of whites go unabated, with no one raising a voice of protest, and hope like hell, usually in vain, that it doesn't turn against those of us who look white.

I would have to say, I very strongly disagree.  Please drop the "Evil Whitey" sarcasm because white racism is just as real and strong as Asian racism.  You forget that the USA was founded on racism, and sustained by racism until very recently, in fact historically one of the most racist nations of all time.  The result is that there is a strong undercurrent of racism that still lives on in this country, under the surface if no longer out in the open.
Precisely the shit I am talking about: the unchecked demonization of the USA and of white people who live in it. Calling the USA racist is understandable, cuz many previous policies were explicitly directed to oppress minorities. But calling them the most racist people who lived? Please, it's pure bullshit. What you're forgetting is that this stuff happens in every nation across the world. The US wasn't unique in having slaves, or making war against indigenous people, or in depriving minority ethnicities of citizenship, so stop trying to pretend that it is --- those things have stopped here and continue on in other countries today.

You claim that there's a strong "undercurrent" of racism. I wouldn't try to deny it. Neither would most white people. Yet is this resulting in the exclusion of Asians from societal institutions? Hardly. Asian Americans hold various high posts in universities, in the military, in government, in business, etc., despite most of them having a relatively short history in this country. In contrast, Asian-American racism continues to result in hapas having no voice among the political leaders and the institutions which claim to be serving the AA community and pushing our issues in the larger political sphere. And racism in Asian countries overseas results in the exclusion of minority populations - Malaysia has no analogues to policy-level minority military officers like Colin Powell or Eric Shinseki. Chinese are specifically excluded from the upper ranks of the military.

Finally, and most ironically, what I've found is that Asian FOBs, whom Asian-Americans will usually blame for the racism coming from Asian community, are actually far more tolerant of hapas, at least those who speak an Asian language.

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jul 3 2003, 08:29 PM
Finally, and most ironically, what I've found is that Asian FOBs, whom Asian-Americans will usually blame for the racism coming from Asian community, are actually far more tolerant of hapas, at least those who speak an Asian language.
Most fobs don't really care at all as long as you speak the langauge. A lot of AAs are resentful of fobs because I suspect fobs are everything they wish they were, esp the kids who do the ebonic speak because they can't speak an Asian langauge and such who really want a niche.

On the issue with Hapas, in my own experiences only, I've found that Hapas tend to only take to one side of their heritage and not really adopt them both equally. I think a lot of it depends on where and who the parents are. That's why I can see why a lot of Hapas wouldn't mind being counted only as Asian on a census or something.

But I have seen a lot of AA resent toward Hapas who didn't take after being Asian, even if their parents Yonsei or something. It's very unrealistic because many Hapas have parents who are already very Americanized on the Asian side because most Asians probably wouldn't marry out of their race. I haven't seen any AA resentfulness toward Hapas who are more Asian so to speak though.

I honestly have never met a Hapa or even heard of any who seemed to have an equlilibrium with both sides of their heritages except on yw.

[coagulated fat]

AAs resent whites
Many Hapas hang out with AAs & are exposed to this
Many Hapas are part white

=
Hapas resent AAs.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@Jul 4 2003, 02:27 AM
On the issue with Hapas, in my own experiences only, I've found that Hapas tend to only take to one side of their heritage and not really adopt them both equally.  I think a lot of it depends on where and who the parents are. That's why I can see why a lot of Hapas wouldn't mind being counted only as Asian on a census or something.
I don't really have a problem being counted as Asian and seeing more federal and state funds go to immigrant assistance organizations, Chinese-language anti-domestic violence/drugs/gang involvement hotlines, etc. (well, beyond the usual problem I have with government taxation and spending on stuff that should be taken care of by private charitable donations). I do have a problem that this also means funds go to other more politicized Asian-American organizations. Next census, barring some change in the way multiracial people are counted, I'll probably just check myself off as white.

Curiously, most hapas take to the white side of their heritage, at least culturally and linguistically, though they might go through some "born again Asian-American" stage where they're making a fetish out of every little ceremony and piece of knowledge and hanging out only with AA friends. I've met many hapas who are English monolingual (even some who were raised in Asia and ended up English monolingual), some who are bilingual from birth, and some who are bilingual by study. I've only ever met one who is Chinese monolingual.

But I have seen a lot of AA resent toward Hapas who didn't take after being Asian, even if their parents Yonsei or something. It's very unrealistic because many Hapas have parents who are already very Americanized on the Asian side because most Asians probably wouldn't marry out of their race. I haven't seen any AA resentfulness toward Hapas who are more Asian so to speak though.
And those same AA barely show any resentment towards another AA who is just as Americanized as they imagine the hapa to be. Unless of course that AA is a girl, doesn't hang out with the AA clique, and commits the unspeakable crime of rejecting some AA guy from some equally whitewashed AA clique who is chasing her. Then she's a sellout slut who's hot for white cock.

(To be perfectly honest, for about the first half of high school, I would also look down on Asian girls who dated white guys. All the more so cuz they're usually very whitewashed. Then I got jumped by reality and realized that discrimination against them by AAs is part and parcel of the discrimination against hapas by AAs.)

As for AA resenting hapas who are Asian: hey, Eugene and me get it. No more so than when I was in Hong Kong, where a lot of the ABCs thought they'd be just as privileged over white people just on the basis of their skin color as they imagined white people to be over them in the US. When they find out no one really gives a damn about them if they can't speak Cantonese, they start inventing theories that Hollywood and CNN brainwashed HKer into worshipping whites or whatnot cuz they saw X-Files on Pearl channel at 1 in the morning and some effete white guy in a Bossini ad.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@Jul 3 2003, 11:27 PM
Most fobs don't really care at all as long as you speak the langauge. A lot of AAs are resentful of fobs because I suspect fobs are everything they wish they were, esp the kids who do the ebonic speak because they can't speak an Asian langauge and such who really want a niche.
Hmm I dunno, I sure as @#$#% aint jealous of either FOB's or on the other side, white Americans. I'm in ma own niche, love Asian food and can speak 3 different Asian languages and yet I'm still pretty whitewashed and 'less Asian' than a lot of other Asian people, but I'm proud of it and this is where I want to belong :P

[BeTheReds]

You don't seem to understand at all. Our rage, well at least mine anyway, is not against all AAs, it is mainly against Asian Activists, especially those who claim that American society is the most utterly racist society on the planet when they have not even left their own state/city/small ethnic enclave of that city. Furthermore, it was my dealings with these activists, mainly in college, and reading magazines like A-magazine and seeing what is going on in the minds of these activists.

I remember reading an article on the alarming outmarriage rate of Asian women to White men and how this would create a lot of social problems such as domestic violence, hapas, and white fathers raping their hapa children because they have some kind of fetish. Then there was commentary about how Asian women need to avoid the "white devils" who only want to get into their pants. Etc... etc.. etc..

Even that aside... one article stuck out as really surprising. One which listed all of the best schools for Asian-Americans in the country. You'd think that factors for something like this would be, Asian-American studies program, Asian-American support center seperate from "minority support center", lack of hate crimes against Asians, quick response to hate crimes against Asians, percentage of Asians graduating in 4 years, scholarships for Asians, etc.. etc.. But what did they list? 2 factors. Number and percent of Asian students (Asian at all, not Asian-American). and number and percent of Asian faculty. Those two things are totally irrelevant to what makes up an environment suitable for Asian-Americans to go to college. My school made it pretty high up there on the list for being 14% Asian. Never mind that more than 1/2 of that is not Asian-American, and are there studying English in the ESL program at my school. Also nevermind that most of the faculty at my school who were Asian were one of 3 things. 1)Language teachers. 2)Sanitation or dining hall staff. 3)Grad students who are TA's for really high level engineering and science courses meaning they only have an effect on about 30 students per year. Besides that fact that my school had a huge amount of Asian faculty, few of them were Amercan, few of them would ever come in contact with a significant portion of the Asian-American students in any meaningful role, and they were all in fields and areas where most of their contact would be with NON-Asians. Yet somehow the fact that the sandwich lady is Vietnmese and speaks no English is incentive to list Maryland as a quality institution for Asians.

Furthermore this rage against AAs is not really rage, but rather dissappointment generally. I'd say that Eric and I definately do have a grasp of most Asian-American issues, and sometimes when we disagree with the view that the majority of the activists around us has, the most common response is to bring our ethnicity into question, and lobby the rest of the activists to never agree with us on anything.

It's kinda like some people in America who see a few minorities protesting the war in Iraq and then assume that they have ties to Al-Qaeda or are secretly foreign terrorists. Activists usually fail to see that most issues are not black or white. There are shades of grey in between. For instance, it is possible to be Pro-War and Anti-Bush, or even Pro-Bush and Anti-War. Yet everyone thought all the hawks were Pro-Bush.

I do identify more with my Asian side. This is why I am here. However, the instant I disagree with anyone who happens to be high up in the circle of Asian-Activists, I am instantly a traitor. I am instantly a white guy who is pretending, or whatever.

I am also embarrased by the double standards which many Asian-Americans have. They will say things like they hate the country, or they identify as overseas Chinese more than American. But the instant someone white identifies them as something other than American they get instantly pissed and that guy is a racist.

On the issue with hapas and full-blooded asians, like Eric said, they only want us for numbers. Yet they do nothing for us. They don't listen to what we say unless it goes in line with their political view. They lump us all together with blanketing statements like "all the hapas I know or have met do this.." "My hapa friend told me that.."

As for fobs, fobs tend to be more accepting of everyone, even if you don't speak their language and can only communicate in english. Lots of the the tension between AAs and fobs stems from fobs being content living in the society they live in, and interacting for the most part peacefully with whites and not seeing that there is some kind of problem with it.

As for this idea that we have not experienced racism from white people, nothing could be further from the truth. Perhaps most of the time I do not get racial slurs hurled at me from random white racists (which in my opinion is a lot easier to ignore than the following), however, I too have had my name butchered by substitute teachers, had people ask me if my father looks like this and pulling their eyes back, been called Long Dong Whong, Eugenie Weenie, Bong hittin Whong, accused of "Eugene Whong sucks King Kong's wing wong in Hong Kong." Asked where I am originally from. Asked how long my father was in the military. Told to go back to China, Japan, or Vietnam, been unable to use my credit card, called a chink when I succeded on Chemistry tests, called a chinklover for playing volleyball on my high school team which consisted of 5.5 Asians and .5 whites (me being the .5 and .5) Called out by teachers when I didn't fit the model minority stereotype. etc.. etc.. etc.. the list goes on and on.

Anyway, I have easy acces to both whites, and asians, and I am on the inside group for a lot of this. The group of whites may occasionally say things that set off an alarm in your head, but are genuinely trying to hide their racism if any of it exists. Most of them would be open to the idea of hanging out with people of different races. Meanwhile Asian-Americans freely make racist jokes, talk down on white people in general, exclude them from certain events that they "wouldn't undrstand", try to go to clubs with the fewest white people admitted, and even clubs where they know the bouncer denys white people entrance. The list goes on and on.

Could it be that the group of Asian-Americans I have hung around are all just bad apples, and all of the Whites are the "good whites"? Maybe. However this is how my whole view on it has been.

How can activists hold white people to this standard where they have to be totally free of racism, while they turn the other way and do nothing, or even participate in Asian-American racism.

This reminds me of a bible verse, tho I forgot where from, however it goes..
Jesus said to (someone)
If you see a speck of dust in your brother's eye, and there is a stick in your own eye, remove the stick from your own eye before trying to clear the dust from your brother's.

Activists which are so eager to claim that there is this pan-ethnic Asian-American community need to first work on stamping out racism in this so called community.. (which obviously they can't do, since this community does not exist.) THEN and ONLY THEN should they worry about tiny little things like the fobby/sexy/ whitewshed/ ugly/ fat/ too thin/accented/stupid/nerdy/successful/unsuccesful asian role in some movie. (notice that a lot of those are opposites, because it seems like no matter what, every role will have a problem).

I know Eric is a little more articulate than I am, and I am sorry that some of this might not make and sense, but for now this is all I can say.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Eugene, I agree with almost everything you have to say except for the 'fobs tend to be more accepting of everyone' bit. I don't find FOBs to be especially accepting or nonaccepting, although many of them do seem to be passive and usually I would attribute this to being shy or uncertain of how to act around people who come from an entirely different culture or upbringing or speak a different language, so therefore hostility or outward prejudice is not displayed. And of course certainly there will be those who are blatantly biased, especially when talking or hanging in their own groups when you (AA's or any other type of foreigners) are not around. Additionally, many FOB's having lived in their respective countries for their entire lives with the most exposure to foreigners or 'whites' primarily through movies or other types of mass media, I would say it's safe to assume that it's not really that many of them are more comfortable living or co-existing globally with whites or foreigners, but that in actuality many of their perceptions would be skewed or distorted (I can't say inaccurate b/c perceptions arguably IMHO can't be wrong or right), whether they hold positive or negative perceptions or think highly of whites or not. The vast majority (or at least a lot) of them, before actually coming to the US for study, visit, immigration, etc., have probably never even met (or seen, depending on their country of origin) a white person in the flesh, much less interacted or talked with them. I was conversing with my friend from Korea the other day (you know her too Eugene) and she was quick to categorize all whites as impolite and lecherous people the minute she talked to a white guy who perhaps said some bad or inappropriate things to her, yet ironically before she always held the view that all white men were tall, handsome, virtuous, and the epitome of perfection. To be fair, I think we both agree that she is an extreme case and in no way can or should we attribute all her traits as representative of all Korean FOBs or Asian FOBs. It's just that a lot of times, when I interact with FOBs, even though they may be my friends, whether they be Chinese or Korean or Japanese or whatever, I am always curious (maybe overly suspicious) as to what they might say when I am not around. But it's probably just paranoia LOL.

Nevertheless, I have always held the belief that despite the fact that the U.S. has its share of problems, it is doing a better job of dealing with issues of diversity and acceptance over the vast majority (if not all) of all other nations. Arguably this is the way it should be though, since America is a country built upon the backs of immigrants groups, who, to varying degrees, suffered or endured struggle, discrimination, or toil in order to contribute and ultimately become 'accepted'. Many other arguably more homogenous countries such as China (even with its 52+ ethnic minorities, the situation is slightly different) or Korea or Japan have not been forced to attack this issue head on because they simply have not felt the heat to do so.

It all comes down to this analogy when discussing 'white privilege' and global institutional white oppression. On a global playground where there exists kids of every ethnicity and race that may want to kill each other (a la Battle Royale, if any of you have seen the Japanese film), the white kids are the ones who most likely have the guns while the other groups will not, even though they may have the same bad intentions. This does not justify any of the intentions (analogously, racism or prejudice) of the minority groups nor the intentions of the whites, but it's simply the fact that whites have the most power and advantage in the game. However, in order to fix things we can't just focus on fighting the advantage that whites hold, we have to also seek to eliminate all the hostile and biased perspectives held by all groups. Thus, it is plain hypocritical if we target only whites (because they have all the power) while lifting up those minority group members who are also racist or biased.

Shit, why can't I just explain things directly, haha.
Basically...tons of white racists in this world, tons of asian and black and hispanic racists too. Difference is white racism has more potential for global influence and effects (at least currently). But you cannot fight racism and institutional racism (institutional racism is not white in color, it is just held by whites) by promoting racism among the other groups.

P.S. Eugene I don't think people made fun of your first name simply b/c it's Asian because it's not really just an Asian name. Maybe it just sounds dorky....j/k well I dun like my name really, well, I dunno, it's alright.

[SunWuKong]

ok. you guys are writing entirely too damn much. i'm not reading all that. just let me know if this thread gets out of hand and i'll come in and nazi it up.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jul 4 2003, 03:06 PM
Nevertheless, I have always held the belief that despite the fact that the U.S. has its share of problems, it is doing a better job of dealing with issues of diversity and acceptance over the vast majority (if not all) of all other nations. Arguably this is the way it should be though, since America is a country built upon the backs of immigrants groups, who, to varying degrees, suffered or endured struggle, discrimination, or toil in order to contribute and ultimately become 'accepted'. Many other arguably more homogenous countries such as China (even with its 52+ ethnic minorities, the situation is slightly different) or Korea or Japan have not been forced to attack this issue head on because they simply have not felt the heat to do so.
Unfortunately, the American national myth of uniqueness doesn't hold true with regard to our being a "nation of immigrants." There are plenty of others out there. Malaysia's already been mentioned. Brazil is another. Most people forget the most geostrategically prominent one: Israel. Comparing to those such countries, rather than to China, Japan, or other societies which don't share that immigrant tradition, the fact that America has as little racism as it does given the continuing inflow of people from all over the world isn't merely "as it should be" in a nation of immigrants, it's a miracle.

People can throw about all they want the idea that America is a failure if it doesn't live up to those high ideals embodied in our constitution, but the truth is, most nations have these exact same high-minded constitutions (most copied from or modeled on the US), which they all fail to live up to. Why? Constitutions don't guarantee shit. The civil institutions rooted in the traditions of the people are what guarantee rights. And the US has a nearly unique practice, not embodied in any particular law, of opening up that civil society to any citizen who wants to participate in it.

It all comes down to this analogy when discussing 'white privilege' and global institutional white oppression.  On a global playground where there exists kids of every ethnicity and race that may want to kill each other (a la Battle Royale, if any of you have seen the Japanese film), the white kids are the ones who most likely have the guns while the other groups will not, even though they may have the same bad intentions.
You're grossly overestimating the power of the American media to perpetuate any kind of "global institutional white oppression." People try to prove that whites are globally culturally dominant by pointing out things like:
1. Asians get eyelid surgery --- because it's an Asian beauty standard. They want to look like the 70% of southern Chinese who naturally have double eyelids, not whites from another continent who have never heard of eyelid surgery anyway.
2. Hollywood movies lionize whites --- and people in Japan barely watch one movie per year per person, while Korean films are doing so well they dismantled the screen quota system.
3. US TV shows --- never shown at primetime anywhere in Asia. etc.
4. American food franchises --- run by locals, with menus adapted to local tastes.
et cetera

Basically, white people haven't got any special power in overseas societies beyond that which their money brings, and even with that, they're perpetual outsiders.

[MellowDrama]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jul 4 2003, 02:54 PM
ok. you guys are writing entirely too damn much. i'm not reading all that. just let me know if this thread gets out of hand and i'll come in and nazi it up.
Yeah, is this awesome or what? It's like a game of "OH YEAH! TOP THIS! I'M GONNA WRITE A NOVEL UP IN THIS BITCH!"

Interesting stuff here, really, but please, no need to write dissertations.

(And to think I gave birth to this bastard thread! Oh, the shame of a father! :( )

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Unfortunately, the American national myth of uniqueness doesn't hold true with regard to our being a "nation of immigrants." There are plenty of others out there. Malaysia's already been mentioned. Brazil is another. Most people forget the most geostrategically prominent one: Israel. Comparing to those such countries, rather than to China, Japan, or other societies which don't share that immigrant tradition, the fact that America has as little racism as it does given the continuing inflow of people from all over the world isn't merely "as it should be" in a nation of immigrants, it's a miracle.

People can throw about all they want the idea that America is a failure if it doesn't live up to those high ideals embodied in our constitution, but the truth is, most nations have these exact same high-minded constitutions (most copied from or modeled on the US), which they all fail to live up to. Why? Constitutions don't guarantee shit. The civil institutions rooted in the traditions of the people are what guarantee rights. And the US has a nearly unique practice, not embodied in any particular law, of opening up that civil society to any citizen who wants to participate in it.

Ok sure. So why is the US able to do such a 'better' job than all these other countries such as Brazil or Israel? Probably then because the U.S. is in the spotlight the most or is the most vulnerable to criticism due to its status as the most powerful and affluent nation in the world, and knows that if it doesn't get its shit together there will be hell. The U.S. feels the most pressure to face such issues, perhaps not just from the actual presence and pressure from immigrants but also pressure that the rest of the world is watching. This doesn't explain some of the objectable shit they've done even while everyone looks on, but that's another story. I don't see it as a miracle at all. Fact is that with the right motivation and resources amazing things get done.


You're grossly overestimating the power of the American media to perpetuate any kind of "global institutional white oppression." People try to prove that whites are globally culturally dominant by pointing out things like:
1. Asians get eyelid surgery --- because it's an Asian beauty standard. They want to look like the 70% of southern Chinese who naturally have double eyelids, not whites from another continent who have never heard of eyelid surgery anyway.
2. Hollywood movies lionize whites --- and people in Japan barely watch one movie per year per person, while Korean films are doing so well they dismantled the screen quota system.
3. US TV shows --- never shown at primetime anywhere in Asia. etc.
4. American food franchises --- run by locals, with menus adapted to local tastes.
et cetera

Basically, white people haven't got any special power in overseas societies beyond that which their money brings, and even with that, they're perpetual outsiders.

Regarding eyelid surgery (esp. in Korea), although I agree that double-eyelids or ssangkuhpul is an Asian beauty standard, I highly doubt that Koreans are looking to imitate (or admire) the Southern Chinese look or pretty much anything Chinese. How the Koreans as a whole view the Chinese as a whole (we are talking about Koreans in Korea and Chinese in China) can be discussed later. From my experiences, they (and other Asians, at least with the current trend) are aiming to look more 'white' than 'more uniquely Asian'. Once again, that is just my perception after talking to Chinese and Korean FOB girls who value double-eyelids. You can also argue that pale skin is another traditional Asian beauty trait and that some Asian girls desire to be pale not because they want to look 'white' but because they are just conforming with what is considered beautiful in Asian society. Then why do I often hear 'Americans (they mean whites, but a lotta times they'll say Americans) have big eyes and such white skin. I want big eyes and white skin.' or something along those lines? Same goes with the prominent noses and nose jobs. I don't believe that having a sharp or larger nose was a traditional Asian beauty trait but nowadays nose jobs do seem to be a bit popular with Asian women who are dissatisfied with their flat noses. Perhaps the Asian beauty standard, regardless of time period, coincidentally fits the traits of many people with European ethnic background. I dunno *shrug*

Regarding the Japanese, how do you explain the rampant worship of everything and everyone white in Japan? Maybe this is a gross exaggeration since I have never been there, but I think Eugene can give a more accurate description of this. Much of this effect may be rooted in Japanese history and its former relations and interactions with the United States, but my point is that global white oppression is not enforced simply through the media. Also, regarding Asian media, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of it draws most of its influence and copies from American media. Yes, in essence, I see much of Asian media nowadays as American imitation, no matter how much they may want to pass it off as their own original idea. Depending on the region (but once again esp. in Japan, Korea, and China), Asian media is simply American pop culture with Asian stars and an Asian twist catered to Asian audiences. Sure, some of it is good, and imitation is not such a bad thing if you can improve upon it. As far as I can tell, the main and only exceptions to this are controversial pieces of work or film directed or created by independent directors or artists and therefore are not considered mainstream Asian media. I have watched what is considered 'good' or 'acclaimed' in the area of Chinese or Korean film (JSA, Hero, Shiri, Musa, Yeopgijeogin Geunyeo etc), and as far as I can tell, these seem to be Asian versions of big budget Hollywood films that instead revolve around issues of concern, interest, or identification to the particular audience (i.e. Korean unification, Chinese wuxia, war films using history to supplement storyline etc). Maybe I am just not good at critiquing film. On an additional and sidetracking tangent, why do you suppose they cast Zhang Ziyi in Hero when it was supposedly a Chinese film meant to please Chinese audiences and Zhang Ziyi receives more acclaim here in the US than in China? Ultimately regarding American imitation, I suppose there is nothing inherently wrong with taking an idea and bettering or altering it to suit one's tastes. But that's my take on it the media portion.

Regarding American food franchises...I dunno, I mean, Chinese food is adapted to American tastes here (even in Chinatowns), as are other types of food with roots from other countries ...I'm not sure where to go with that one....

I still do think that white Americans may not have any type of 'special power' but do have privilege even overseas. It is not just because of media influence, although that may certainly help. I have heard from my parents that it is actually more dangerous to travel in certain places as an Asian American rather than a white American in Asia since many locals will not hesitate to take advantage of an Asian person who looks like he/she is not from the area as opposed to a white person, in which any type of conspiracy or harm committed would force them to answer to the American government, which represents, whether they are hated or not, the most powerful entity in the world. The vast majority of Asians living in Asia (at least from the FOB's that I have talked to, who constantly have trouble believing that I can speak perfect English even after realizing that I was born in the US) still equate American with 'white'. They have no concept of 'Asian American'. Asian Americans to them are simply 'Asians born in the US'. Like I said before, they have a difficult time believing that I can even speak English well. Where do they get this idea, or why do they have this idea implanted into them that Asian people have a harder time speaking English than white people, regardless of their upbringing or where they were born? A lot of AA's complain about whites patronizing them or complimenting them on their English. I assure you that FOB's do the exact same thing, and arguably more often because they aren't conditioned to see this as patronizing or insulting.

Asians in Asia also equate American with 'power'. They may hate this power, they may be drawn to it with admiration, they may be jealous, or they may be indifferent. But this power is still acknowledged, and because of this, whites will enjoy privilege, although this is not the only reason why.

This argument is not to justify racism or anti-white sentiment, but simply the acknowledgment of global white institutional privilege. To be honest, perhaps I have not risen high enough in the system to feel any type of glass ceiling whatsoever, and I have faced very very little perceived discrimination minus two or three incidents in my whole entire life involving racial slurs or remarks. I have, however, encountered situations of the reverse where Asians freely insult whites or other groups largely I think due to the fact that it is more socially accepted since whites are taught to hide any type of bias they might feel. It's not as bad as many of us make it sound, and let's face it, if you can afford to go to the library and do research on issues such as this as well as surf the net and type up long-ass responses (such as this one) on Asian Activism forums, chances are you're not the one who is most justified to complain about getting screwed or oppressed in society ^^

I know this is kind of murky because I don't really know what I am trying to specifically say. I didn't really put together this thing very well, but I would be very willing to discuss these issues further. Feel free to point out any mistakes or holes I have in my argument. This topic interests me greatly.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jul 4 2003, 07:47 PM
Regarding the Japanese, how do you explain the rampant worship of everything and everyone white in Japan? Maybe this is a gross exaggeration since I have never been there, but I think Eugene can give a more accurate description of this.
Yes, it is a gross exaggeration. The Japanese 'worship' White Americans in two major ways: by creating / perpetuating a stereotype of all White men as well-endowed and macho, and by covering their t-shirts, handbags, and any and everything else with English words and phrases they barely understand. If, by looking at those examples, you determine that the Japanese worship Whites, then by that logic Whites worship Black men and the Chinese language, because nearly the same thing takes place in American culture :rolleyes: . I assure you, the Japanese have as much disregard, ridiculous myths, and general indifference towards American culture as White Americans do to Blacks and Asians (not that that's a good thing, but...).

Why do all other Asians have to single us out as the Uncle Toms of Asia? Japan is the only Asian country to dominate American industries like electronics and cars; yet most non-Japanese AAs I know think Japan is a nation of sellouts because of the biased Madame Butterfly-ish image that American media perpetuates. <_<

[MellowDrama]

Yuhei, quit being a SELL-OUT LIEK I KNOW ALL YOUR KIND ARE!

j/k

BTW, those dirty Flips are liek the most sell outish I mean, SOME OF THEM EVEN HAVE WHITE NAMES!!

:ph34r:

j/k again

For real, the "thou art most sell out race/group" game is retarded.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Jul 4 2003, 08:16 PM
Yes, it is a gross exaggeration. The Japanese 'worship' White Americans in two major ways: by creating / perpetuating a stereotype of all White men as well-endowed and macho, and by covering their t-shirts, handbags, and any and everything else with English words and phrases they barely understand. If, by looking at those examples, you determine that the Japanese worship Whites, then by that logic Whites worship Black men and the Chinese language, because nearly the same thing takes place in American culture :rolleyes: . I assure you, the Japanese have as much disregard, ridiculous myths, and general indifference towards American culture as White Americans do to Blacks and Asians (not that that's a good thing, but...).

Why do all other Asians have to single us out as the Uncle Toms of Asia? Japan is the only Asian country to dominate American industries like electronics and cars; yet most non-Japanese AAs I know think Japan is a nation of sellouts because of the biased Madame Butterfly-ish image that American media perpetuates. <_<
Uh I never labeled Japan as the ultimate Uncle Tom Asian nation or whatever. I never equated Japanese or any other type of Asian people worshipping white people as being any type of sell-out. I think my idea of a sell-out is very different from what many other people typically regard as a sell-out. However, it is just my perspective that Japanese are the most influenced and open to American ideas due to historical events, and therefore are the most likely to worship Americans, which they equate (not just them, but many Asians in Asia) with white. It is also my perception that the reason for Japan's rise to the top in terms of economic accomplishment is highly due to the modeling of its government and economy around the U.S. after MacArthur took over and had 10 arguably incompetent U.S. govt. reps write the new Japanese constitution, but once again, I could be misled. This is not to imply the superiority of the U.S. economic model either. But regarding your point, who am I to argue. I have never been to Japan so I will take your word for it. It is just based upon what I've heard and based upon what I have seen from Japanese exchange students (who are arguably not representative of the Japanese student population since they are making efforts to study abroad and are fairly affluent or rich).

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jul 5 2003, 05:06 AM
I was conversing with my friend from Korea the other day (you know her too Eugene) and she was quick to categorize all whites as impolite and lecherous people the minute she talked to a white guy who perhaps said some bad or inappropriate things to her, yet ironically before she always held the view that all white men were tall, handsome, virtuous, and the epitome of perfection. To be fair, I think we both agree that she is an extreme case and in no way can or should we attribute all her traits as representative of all Korean FOBs or Asian FOBs.
Of course not, because she is not a fob, she is Korean, living in Korea.

I guess the majority of my interaction with FOBs is in college, mostly with exchange students, their friends, and at fob parties. Everyone seemed to be really open and nice.

But then again, you can expect most international students to be internationally thinking open minded people.

So I will retract that statement about most FOBs being generally accepting.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jul 5 2003, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Jul 4 2003, 08:16 PM
Yes, it is a gross exaggeration. The Japanese 'worship' White Americans in two major ways: by creating / perpetuating a stereotype of all White men as well-endowed and macho, and by covering their t-shirts, handbags, and any and everything else with English words and phrases they barely understand. If, by looking at those examples, you determine that the Japanese worship Whites, then by that logic Whites worship Black men and the Chinese language, because nearly the same thing takes place in American culture :rolleyes: . I assure you, the Japanese have as much disregard, ridiculous myths, and general indifference towards American culture as White Americans do to Blacks and Asians (not that that's a good thing, but...).

Why do all other Asians have to single us out as the Uncle Toms of Asia? Japan is the only Asian country to dominate American industries like electronics and cars; yet most non-Japanese AAs I know think Japan is a nation of sellouts because of the biased Madame Butterfly-ish image that American media perpetuates. <_<
Uh I never labeled Japan as the ultimate Uncle Tom Asian nation or whatever. I never equated Japanese or any other type of Asian people worshipping white people as being any type of sell-out. I think my idea of a sell-out is very different from what many other people typically regard as a sell-out. However, it is just my perspective that Japanese are the most influenced and open to American ideas due to historical events, and therefore are the most likely to worship Americans, which they equate (not just them, but many Asians in Asia) with white. It is also my perception that the reason for Japan's rise to the top in terms of economic accomplishment is highly due to the modeling of its government and economy around the U.S. after MacArthur took over and had 10 arguably incompetent U.S. govt. reps write the new Japanese constitution, but once again, I could be misled. This is not to imply the superiority of the U.S. economic model either. But regarding your point, who am I to argue. I have never been to Japan so I will take your word for it. It is just based upon what I've heard and based upon what I have seen from Japanese exchange students (who are arguably not representative of the Japanese student population since they are making efforts to study abroad and are fairly affluent or rich).
Would you say that an AA of any ethnicity worships Whites? Wouldn't that be a pretty extreme statement to make? I'm not trying to place the blame solely on you; you're not the only person to do it and your comment wasn't the worst, but it's still an inappropriate thing to say. White Americans like to think that Japan is a nation of geisha girls waiting for a White savior, and it's a little disconcerting to hear the exact same BS repeated back to me by other Asians. As to your point about Japan's success coming from copying American models, I think there's some truth to that statement, but I still don't see how that's evidence of the Japanese worshipping Whites. Taiwan is a capitalist democracy, as was Hong Kong (give or take a few details), but you didn't extend your remarks to them.

90% of my information about SE Asian countries like Thailand, Viet Nam, etc. comes from American movies with lines like "me love you long time" in 'em, and news reports that focus on the poverty and the giant sex industry in those places. I'm still not about to say "It seems to me, based on my perceptions, even though I have very little knowledge of the region, that SE Asia is full of whores".

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Jul 5 2003, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jul 5 2003, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Jul 4 2003, 08:16 PM
Yes, it is a gross exaggeration. The Japanese 'worship' White Americans in two major ways: by creating / perpetuating a stereotype of all White men as well-endowed and macho, and by covering their t-shirts, handbags, and any and everything else with English words and phrases they barely understand. If, by looking at those examples, you determine that the Japanese worship Whites, then by that logic Whites worship Black men and the Chinese language, because nearly the same thing takes place in American culture :rolleyes: . I assure you, the Japanese have as much disregard, ridiculous myths, and general indifference towards American culture as White Americans do to Blacks and Asians (not that that's a good thing, but...).

Why do all other Asians have to single us out as the Uncle Toms of Asia? Japan is the only Asian country to dominate American industries like electronics and cars; yet most non-Japanese AAs I know think Japan is a nation of sellouts because of the biased Madame Butterfly-ish image that American media perpetuates. <_<
Uh I never labeled Japan as the ultimate Uncle Tom Asian nation or whatever. I never equated Japanese or any other type of Asian people worshipping white people as being any type of sell-out. I think my idea of a sell-out is very different from what many other people typically regard as a sell-out. However, it is just my perspective that Japanese are the most influenced and open to American ideas due to historical events, and therefore are the most likely to worship Americans, which they equate (not just them, but many Asians in Asia) with white. It is also my perception that the reason for Japan's rise to the top in terms of economic accomplishment is highly due to the modeling of its government and economy around the U.S. after MacArthur took over and had 10 arguably incompetent U.S. govt. reps write the new Japanese constitution, but once again, I could be misled. This is not to imply the superiority of the U.S. economic model either. But regarding your point, who am I to argue. I have never been to Japan so I will take your word for it. It is just based upon what I've heard and based upon what I have seen from Japanese exchange students (who are arguably not representative of the Japanese student population since they are making efforts to study abroad and are fairly affluent or rich).
Would you say that an AA of any ethnicity worships Whites? Wouldn't that be a pretty extreme statement to make? I'm not trying to place the blame solely on you; you're not the only person to do it and your comment wasn't the worst, but it's still an inappropriate thing to say. White Americans like to think that Japan is a nation of geisha girls waiting for a White savior, and it's a little disconcerting to hear the exact same BS repeated back to me by other Asians. As to your point about Japan's success coming from copying American models, I think there's some truth to that statement, but I still don't see how that's evidence of the Japanese worshipping Whites. Taiwan is a capitalist democracy, as was Hong Kong (give or take a few details), but you didn't extend your remarks to them.

90% of my information about SE Asian countries like Thailand, Viet Nam, etc. comes from American movies with lines like "me love you long time" in 'em, and news reports that focus on the poverty and the giant sex industry in those places. I'm still not about to say "It seems to me, based on my perceptions, even though I have very little knowledge of the region, that SE Asia is full of whores".
Okay, this whole subject about white worship in Japan. I don't exactly think you can call it worship.

I don't know exactly what it is, but I can definately tell you that there are some people who do watch American movies and TV and that is their view of America. Naturally they are going to think that all white people are good looking since most white celebrities are good looking. Lots of Japanese don't go out to see movies like Americans do, as Eric keeps saying, but, there are video stores here, and cable tv too.

When a Japanese girl marries a white dude, some Japanese people will envy her. Most of them will not give a shit either way. Some will be opposed to it. All the complaining about white men fetishing over asian females can be countered and equalled with the same thing in Japan. Japanese men fetishing over white females and their pink nipples so much that they have to import them from russia and eastern Europe to fill their hostess bars.

Also, when I got here, it seemed as if the cool thing to do was pretend you were Korean, and Korean stuff was the ultimate in cool. Now it seems to have shifted to England thanks to David Beckham. Mr. Bean is now being shown on tv due to the pro british attitude. recently I saw a tv show on tv about the similarities between England and Japan... Starting of course with the obvious "we are both archipeligos on opposite sides of the same landmass." And other irrelevant similarities like the monarchy and stuff.

There is a general aire among my students anyway (especially the girls) that they do not want to be Japanese. I think this is because woman's rights here have not yet caught up with other countries in the west.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Jul 4 2003, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jul 5 2003, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Jul 4 2003, 08:16 PM
Yes, it is a gross exaggeration. The Japanese 'worship' White Americans in two major ways: by creating / perpetuating a stereotype of all White men as well-endowed and macho, and by covering their t-shirts, handbags, and any and everything else with English words and phrases they barely understand. If, by looking at those examples, you determine that the Japanese worship Whites, then by that logic Whites worship Black men and the Chinese language, because nearly the same thing takes place in American culture :rolleyes: . I assure you, the Japanese have as much disregard, ridiculous myths, and general indifference towards American culture as White Americans do to Blacks and Asians (not that that's a good thing, but...).

Why do all other Asians have to single us out as the Uncle Toms of Asia? Japan is the only Asian country to dominate American industries like electronics and cars; yet most non-Japanese AAs I know think Japan is a nation of sellouts because of the biased Madame Butterfly-ish image that American media perpetuates. <_<
Uh I never labeled Japan as the ultimate Uncle Tom Asian nation or whatever. I never equated Japanese or any other type of Asian people worshipping white people as being any type of sell-out. I think my idea of a sell-out is very different from what many other people typically regard as a sell-out. However, it is just my perspective that Japanese are the most influenced and open to American ideas due to historical events, and therefore are the most likely to worship Americans, which they equate (not just them, but many Asians in Asia) with white. It is also my perception that the reason for Japan's rise to the top in terms of economic accomplishment is highly due to the modeling of its government and economy around the U.S. after MacArthur took over and had 10 arguably incompetent U.S. govt. reps write the new Japanese constitution, but once again, I could be misled. This is not to imply the superiority of the U.S. economic model either. But regarding your point, who am I to argue. I have never been to Japan so I will take your word for it. It is just based upon what I've heard and based upon what I have seen from Japanese exchange students (who are arguably not representative of the Japanese student population since they are making efforts to study abroad and are fairly affluent or rich).
Would you say that an AA of any ethnicity worships Whites? Wouldn't that be a pretty extreme statement to make? I'm not trying to place the blame solely on you; you're not the only person to do it and your comment wasn't the worst, but it's still an inappropriate thing to say. White Americans like to think that Japan is a nation of geisha girls waiting for a White savior, and it's a little disconcerting to hear the exact same BS repeated back to me by other Asians. As to your point about Japan's success coming from copying American models, I think there's some truth to that statement, but I still don't see how that's evidence of the Japanese worshipping Whites. Taiwan is a capitalist democracy, as was Hong Kong (give or take a few details), but you didn't extend your remarks to them.

90% of my information about SE Asian countries like Thailand, Viet Nam, etc. comes from American movies with lines like "me love you long time" in 'em, and news reports that focus on the poverty and the giant sex industry in those places. I'm still not about to say "It seems to me, based on my perceptions, even though I have very little knowledge of the region, that SE Asia is full of whores".
You're right. It was inappropriate to say something like 'the rampant worship of whites in Japan' in my previous post. Actually I'm not sure why I wrote it that way...I don't think I meant to imply that everyone or that most people in Japan are like that but I could understand how someone could easily interpret my words that way and become offended, so my bad =). Yet although my knowledge of Japanese society is somewhat limited, it definitely is not restricted to depictions and input from American media or movies regarding Japan. I have studied Japanese history to a certain degree (though definitely no expert) and interacted with many Japanese FOB's (but once again, since many are international students, by default they are not representative of the entire college-age Japanese population). I would like to think it's not as simple as assuming all SE Asian women are whores from movies like Full Metal Jacket (which I still haven't seen) etc.

I will discuss my opinion of Taiwan and their attitudes (esp. towards Japan and Mainland China) maybe some other time...I dun wanna write anymore than I already have... :lol:

And no, I don't think that all AA's of any ethnicity worship whites. However, I do believe that many people in societies across the world will or may have a greater tendency to put whites on a pedestal due to ignorance, traditional thought, misinformation, or history. Or contrarily they may end up with resentment or hate towards whites, or neither, depending once again, on the person and the country, nation, or area.

Both you and Eugene's point taken. I'm not here to accuse or point fingers after all. Just letting people know what I think and then hopefully I can expand or alter upon what I already know or feel based upon feedback or responses.

[soupdragon]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jul 4 2003, 03:47 PM
Regarding eyelid surgery (esp. in Korea), although I agree that double-eyelids or ssangkuhpul is an Asian beauty standard, I highly doubt that Koreans are looking to imitate (or admire) the Southern Chinese look or pretty much anything Chinese.&nbsp; How the Koreans as a whole view the Chinese as a whole (we are talking about Koreans in Korea and Chinese in China) can be discussed later.&nbsp; From my experiences, they (and other Asians, at least with the current trend) are aiming to look more 'white' than 'more uniquely Asian'.&nbsp; Once again, that is just my perception after talking to Chinese and Korean FOB girls who value double-eyelids.&nbsp; You can also argue that pale skin is another traditional Asian beauty trait and that some Asian girls desire to be pale not because they want to look 'white' but because they are just conforming with what is considered beautiful in Asian society.&nbsp; Then why do I often hear 'Americans (they mean whites, but a lotta times they'll say Americans) have big eyes and such white skin.&nbsp; I want big eyes and white skin.' or something along those lines?&nbsp; Same goes with the prominent noses and nose jobs.&nbsp; I don't believe that having a sharp or larger nose was a traditional Asian beauty trait but nowadays nose jobs do seem to be a bit popular with Asian women who are dissatisfied with their flat noses.&nbsp; Perhaps the Asian beauty standard, regardless of time period, coincidentally fits the traits of many people with European ethnic background.&nbsp; I dunno *shrug*
Not really relevant to the topic but anyways,

I don't think that Korean having plastic surgeries is all about wanting to

look "white". In fact, a lot of of them specifically request "Kim Hee-sun's

eyes, Ko so-young's nose, or Song Hye-kyo's whatever...etc", and not "Britney

Spears' eyes, Nicole Kidman's nose" and so on, cuz we know it's sooo not possible.

Then, of course, one could say that the celebrities in Korea themselves had

surgeries to be white but I think that's going too far. We don't really care about

white american people that much in our everyday lives simply because there aren't

many of them around.

(This post took me 10 minutes to write.. :cry: i should just read only from now on)

[moschikat]

Hmm . . . I should rethink plastic surgery as a my specialty field then?


*this thread is so angsty at times . . . its good to know people are passionate*

:)

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by soupdragon@Jul 5 2003, 09:29 AM
(This post took me 10 minutes to write.. :cry: i should just read only from now on)
Not at all. Your opinion is valuable to us. We don't have many Asians who were born and raised in Asia here so a new perspective is always a good thing.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by soupdragon@Jul 6 2003, 02:29 AM
Not really relevant to the topic but anyways,

I don't think that Korean having plastic surgeries is all about wanting to

look "white". In fact, a lot of of them specifically request "Kim Hee-sun's

eyes, Ko so-young's nose, or Song Hye-kyo's whatever...etc", and not "Britney

Spears' eyes, Nicole Kidman's nose" and so on, cuz we know it's sooo not possible.

Then, of course, one could say that the celebrities in Korea themselves had

surgeries to be white but I think that's going too far. We don't really care about

white american people that much in our everyday lives simply because there aren't

many of them around.

(This post took me 10 minutes to write.. :cry: i should just read only from now on)
You have to admit tho, soupie, that the whole eyelid surgery methodology and trend was an import from Japan, and that Japanese first started to do that after WWII.

The first people who did it DID want to look white.

[soupdragon]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 6 2003, 04:29 PM
You have to admit tho, soupie, that the whole eyelid surgery methodology and trend was an import from Japan, and that Japanese first started to do that after WWII.

The first people who did it DID want to look white.
But still most koreans don't do it thinking that they're going to look white. I would

have to say though that this is only regarding the surface of the matter.

If we go in deeper, however, almost everything we do or think is the derivative of

everything european/american. What really scares me is that most people don't

know that. ($%&#@$%.. i wish i could explain myself better.. :( )

[BeTheReds]

No, I agree with you that people who do it now are not trying to be white.

I also do not agree that everything Korean people do or think is derivative of Europe and America.

Che-sa for example is one thing we do that we do cuz of us.
The relationship of your in-group, all the people not related to you who call you oppa or noona or unni or hyung and all the tongsaengs you have who in actuality are not related to you in any way, most americans don't have.

Yea, maybe using computers, nationalism, buying stuff at grocery stores, technology, sports, and things like that are based on european things, but you have to keep in mind that these are trends not unique to Korea, but the whole world, as globalism sets in. Wether this is good or bad, I am not here to debate, but I wouldn't be so quick to label Koreans as wannabes just yet.

[golden_buns]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 6 2003, 11:18 PM
I also do not agree that everything Korean people do or think is derivative of Europe and America.
Though I wonder why brands such as Whoau use only caucasian models in their adds and people by those clothes by the millions. Actually pretty much all of the malls that I've gone so far use mainly caucasian models in their adds.

[BeTheReds]

I noticed that myself last time I was there. I thought I was in the US in an abercrombie store. You have to admit tho, that Korean fashion and American fashion are hardly the same.

Put it in contrast tho, hanbok stores wouldn't try to advertize with white models, would they? It wouldn't make sense.

[golden_buns]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 6 2003, 11:40 PM
Put it in contrast tho, hanbok stores wouldn't try to advertize with white models, would they? It wouldn't make sense.
Hahahahahaha,

I bet that'd get everyone saying "What the fuck"

Actually, the stuff at Whoau is pretty the same as the stuff from A&F; very similar designs, the sizes and fits, and also the texture and quality. I think, they both come from the same factories in China, Vietnam, and Phillipines, but all they change is the name of the brand

[soupdragon]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 6 2003, 11:18 PM
I also do not agree that everything Korean people do or think is derivative of Europe and America.

ok i was exaggerating..hehe i do that often.. :P

btw what was the original topic :blink:

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by golden_buns@Jul 6 2003, 11:44 PM
Hahahahahaha,

I bet that'd get everyone saying "What the fuck"

Actually, the stuff at Whoau is pretty the same as the stuff from A&F; very similar designs, the sizes and fits, and also the texture and quality. I think, they both come from the same factories in China, Vietnam, and Phillipines, but all they change is the name of the brand
That's hilarious. I don't get why there's such a huge AF fade right now, their clothes aren't that innovative and stylish or anything.

[BeTheReds]

I've never bought AF clothes, but they are not shitty clothes or anything. They look like they are comfortable and good for lounging around.

[Erendani]

Yes, these posts are getting a bit long.

But succintly, Alibaba and Bethereds (and any other hapas), what specifically can be done to stop Asian American racism against hapas?

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by Erendani@Jul 9 2003, 03:45 PM
what specifically can be done to stop Asian American racism against hapas?
Easy. Stop promoting "pan-Asian-American identity." Especially stop promoting "people of color" identity in opposition to whites and end the demonization of white people. Greatly expand dual-immersion programs in Asian ethnic languages so that Asian-Americans and hapas alike all have easy access to them.

This will do a lot to shift the standard of membership in the ethnic community from the present racist appearance-based standard which especially defines white people as "outsider" and "oppressor here to steal our women" to a more normal standard based on knowledge of and belonging to the culture.

[Erendani]

Okay fair enough.

I think the specific tactics need to be hammered out in detail, but I'm hearing ya... especially about the demonization of white people... I'm no proponent of the "white devil" mentality. Basically, you want hapas and whites to be included as FULL EQUALS whenever there is an interaction with Asian Americans, with no special distinctions to excuse ostracism in any form, am I reading you right? No more "whites are foreigners or outsiders" mentality.

[Erendani]

But now on the other side of the coin, what do you should be done about white (or black or other) racism against Asian Americans. Or does the current state of affairs justify doing anything at all, because whites are already working hard to improve equality between races, as you put it. For example, is protesting movie roles, A&F t-shirts, and halloween masks unnecessary and a overreaction on the part of AAs... should we focus our energy on other things instead.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by Erendani@Jul 9 2003, 04:25 PM
I think the specific tactics need to be hammered out in detail, but I'm hearing ya... especially about the demonization of white people... I'm no proponent of the "white devil" mentality. Basically, you want hapas and whites to be included as FULL EQUALS whenever there is an interaction with Asian Americans, with no special distinctions to excuse ostracism in any form, am I reading you right? No more "whites are foreigners or outsiders" mentality.
Nah, not exactly. I'm all for ostracizing people all you want, once you figure out they're outside of your cultural community. But wait until you've figured it out for the ostracism to begin.

Of course, that requires that you actually define your community based on your culture rather than your appearance. (Whites are a lot better at this than Asian-Americans right now. Some Latinos are even better.) Otherwise, you automatically ostracize anyone who doesn't look like you. The only way to stop that automatic response is to tear down "Asian panethnicity." All the lectures and diversity training workshops and glowing media portrayals of hapas in the world won't do jack shit until that's accomplished.

As for dealing with white non-acceptance of Asians and categorization of them as foreigners: it's gonna continue as long as we are a 75% immigrant population. Again, media can't change that, cuz people hear Asians with heavy accents with their own two ears everywhere they go.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jul 9 2003, 05:09 PM
Easy. Stop promoting "pan-Asian-American identity." Especially stop promoting "people of color" identity in opposition to whites and end the demonization of white people. Greatly expand dual-immersion programs in Asian ethnic languages so that Asian-Americans and hapas alike all have easy access to them.

This will do a lot to shift the standard of membership in the ethnic community from the present racist appearance-based standard which especially defines white people as "outsider" and "oppressor here to steal our women" to a more normal standard based on knowledge of and belonging to the culture.
I don't think language needs to be so heavily emphasized. I know plenty of Jews and Italians whose Hewbrew and Italian covers family names, food, and maybe an expletive or two, but they still have a strongly defined ethnicity.

[BeTheReds]

I think basically what Eric said is pretty much what I would have to say on the matter. One thing that I definately think needs to stop is the alarm that occurs when an interracial couple is discovered. If you don't want to date out of your race, then don't, there are probably lots of women who feel the same way you do. However, there is no need to call a woman who does this a sellout. If we can first come to grips with this, then there will be exponentially less discrimination of hapas in my opinion.

[Erendani]

Ok, let me clarify further. For AA racism toward hapas:

1. Eliminate the idea of there being some "pan-asian culture" based on Asian looks (i.e. there is no such thing as a Asian American group)... instead, acceptance should be based on culture. Whites and hapas can be seen as outsiders if they don't share the same culture as a specific AA group (e.g. Korean Americans)... but if a white or hapa speaks Korean, and generally shares the same culture of said Korean American group... the KA group must accept him/her fully, NO MATTER WHAT THAT PERSON LOOKS LIKE (e.g. blond, blue-eyed, etc).

2. AAs need to stop commenting negatively about interracial couples. For instance, calling the AF in a WM/AF couple a sellout is a problem, because this spills over into AA discrimination against hapas, especially, I assume, against white-looking hapa males (essentially caught in the crossfire because they are mistaken for full whites).

For white racism toward AAs:

1. Nothing much AAs can do about this because there are too many Asian immigrants among us. Media portrayals really won't change anything, the only thing that will really change things is the reduction of immigrant to native born population among AAs over time.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by Erendani@Jul 10 2003, 09:37 AM
but if a white or hapa speaks Korean, and generally shares the same culture of said Korean American group... the KA group must accept him/her fully, NO MATTER WHAT THAT PERSON LOOKS LIKE (e.g. blond, blue-eyed, etc).

No, I don't exactly agree with that, I don't think that people who are completly white should be thought of as Korean automatically if they are "culturally Korean".

Though you first need to show me that such a person exists.. (IE raised in Korea by Korean speakers...) I am sure there is one or two, but honestly most white American people who speak Korean and have interest in Korean culture are culturally American. Probably those who were raised in Korea wouldn't want to be identified as American and don't have problems with acceptance, tho I don't have any documented existance of such a person.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Jul 9 2003, 05:42 PM
I don't think language needs to be so heavily emphasized. I know plenty of Jews and Italians whose Hewbrew and Italian covers family names, food, and maybe an expletive or two, but they still have a strongly defined ethnicity.
Well, if we're talking about accepting mixed-race kids, language probably has to be emphasized that heavily ... it's the only other badge of identity (besides appearance) which isn't easily faked. Oh yeah and Jews don't exactly have the brightest track record in dealing with mixed marriages, so looking to them as a model seems a bit odd.

[BeTheReds]

A Jew's ethnicity is defined as having a Jewish mom.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 10 2003, 02:00 AM
A Jew's ethnicity is defined as having a Jewish mom.
Which invariably pisses off a sizeable proportion of the hapas from New York ...

[Erendani]

<!--QuoteBegin-BeTheReds+Jul 10 2003, 05:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BeTheReds @ Jul 10 2003, 05:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, I don't exactly agree with that,&nbsp; I don't think that people who are completly white should be thought of as Korean automatically if they are "culturally Korean".
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Bethereds, personally speaking, do you want to be fully accepted by the Korean or Korean American community? (I ask because you have a Korean father). Or have you given up on this idea. Or do you feel you already are.

I noticed that you could possibly pass for full white, which would probably impact how Koreans in general view you.

[Erendani]

Alibaba, so do you agree with my little 3 point synopsis I wrote a few posts back... I'm still trying to clarify a bit more about what you are trying to say.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

<!--QuoteBegin-BeTheReds+Jul 9 2003, 09:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BeTheReds @ Jul 9 2003, 09:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Erendani+Jul 10 2003, 09:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpad