Questionable Asian representation in video games

[Di_Jai]

There is a new videogame from the developers of games such as Grand Theft Auto: vice city called Vietcong. I could not believe my eyes when I read this review of this game. How can anything so blatantly racist ever be developed as a mainstream entrtainment product!?

http://www.gamebunker.com/reviews2.php?id=122
http://www.gathering.com/forums/viewtopic....&highlight=gook (http://www.gathering.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7347&highlight=gook)
http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview/zones/...3/vietcong.html (http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview/zones/reviews/pc/may03/vietcong.html)
http://www.angryasianman.com - listed under date 06.22.03


We're a small group that's trying to spread the word and create some awareness. We're currently trying to email students associations, AA organizations...etc. We would appreciate any help you can give.

You can find a list of emails at http://www.umich.edu/~vsawww/links.html for starters. Currently we have a list at modelminority.com in the forums, general discussions section, and listed under "Let's Shoot Some Gooks!?".

This is probably the sickest thing I've ever come across. The difference from this and a movie is the user is in control. I'm sure I don't have to list the hundreds of reasons as to why this game should never have been created in the first place. I'm sure those who are empowering themselves know fully well why this should not be released. I ask for anyone who can to help us make a difference. Below is information that's been gathered about the company by Kim Singh of the Asian American Public Policy Institute.

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From: Kim Singh <kimsingh@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 02:25:29 +0530
Subject: Re: kill GOOKS: a new video game!? New York City Game Publisher makes a game out of killing Vietnamese

I do realize that people are tired of being politically correct. But instances of hate crimes against Asian Americans and other ethnic communities continue. Violent video and computer games continue to depict Asian Americans in a derogatory manner. We could shrug our shoulders and go on with our lives, or we could pause spend a few moments to let the producers of such racially offensive material know that this cannot continue.
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Who we need to target are the publisher and developer of the game " Vietcong ".

PUBLISHER/ Take 2 Games Their web site and contact information is at http://www.take2games.com/index.php?p=global_contacts
http://www.vietcong-game.com/us/contact.php They are listed on the NASDAQ as TTWO.

You have to hit a company where it hurts. In their pocket book. First try to reason with them. They need to be made aware that their product is racially insensitive. If they refuse to pull the game off their distribution list, that is when we need to take steps they cannot ignore.
Contact Information
Corporate Office
Address Phone
Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc. 622 Broadway, New York, NY 10012 (646) 536-2842





Take-Two Interactive Software is a NYC company. Lets see what Mayor Bloomberg has to say about such "fine" citizens of his fair city!

DEVELOPER/Pterodon http://www.pterodon.cz They are a Czech company.

This game and its distribution are big. There are some large corporate and financial companies involved with Take 2 Games. U.S. Bancorp Piper is one showcasing this game developer. http://www.usbank.com/cgi_w/cfm/contact_us.cfm

It is no point cribbing about such anti-Asian games, unless you can take the time to write to these corporate bigwigs and call them to tell them how you feel about their game.

Thanks

Kim Singh
Director
Asian American Public Policy Institute
4546 El Camino Real, Suite B10-129
Los Altos, CA 94022
policyinstitute@juno.com

[rakovlam]

umm... Vietcong troops aren't Asian-Americans.

[Di_Jai]

That's a great attitude rakovlam

[Fireblade]

Though I agree that this game may have been made in bad taste, how is this any different from Wolfenstien?

[Di_Jai]

I'm sorry I'm not familiar with Wolfenstein. Does it use questionable and racist language as well? If it does then there is absolutely no difference and from my limited knowledge of the game I would consider it racist as well. However I still believe a racist game is a racist game.

[himura-dono]

or bf1942.... in that one you kill japanese AND germans AND americans

and i don't see any mention of listing any racial slurs, that was provided by the asians in the email themselves.

so follow my 3 step plan to clearer thinking.

1. stop
2. insert foot into mouth
3. chew thoroughly and thoughtfully reflect why you overreacted.

[tvbdude]

anyone remember that game that was created by KKK(was it?) that was called ethnic cleansing? when you shoot at blacks, they make ape noises

[VV o n g B a]

i'm not sure about the premise of the game, but if they are trying to accurately portray the vietnam war, then they would have to put in the racial slurs. they ought to have a big disclaimer that the only reason such speech is included is for historical accuracy, but they ought to include it.

any american movie about the vietnam war has americans acting very racist towards the vietnamese. they show it not to be racist but to show how ppl lose their humanity. showing that behavior in the game with some disclaimers might even teach a lesson. if they are going about it comically however, i can definitely see a problem.

[Di_Jai]

himura-dono,

This is a quote from Dan Lee the writer at gamebunker.

"Though it may seem that Steve is a looney, you’ll soon find that what he says are your clues throughout the game. Not clues as subtle mysterious ones, but “FUCK ME! I GOTTA FIND WHERE THESE GOOKS ARE COMING FROM!” kind of clues. Hence the 18+ rating. "

I've written him and confirmed that they do indeed use that word quite freely. In the second link notice how it's a search with the word "gook" in the end. http://www.gathering.com/forums/viewtopic........&highlight= (http://www.gathering.com/forums/viewtopic....&highlight=)gook . The owners of that site have a policy of not allowing racist language. Eventhough their parent company is Take-2-Interactive. Yes very hypocritcal. So if you don't see the word "gook" but you do see the word "censored!" it's pretty obvious that it adds up. The other two articles were given to provide the reader a little more information on the game.

[Faithless]

Well, that doesn't sound good, considering that the Grand Theft Auto video game may have had an influence on one Oakland gangs crime spree. :frown:

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by Fireblade@Jun 23 2003, 11:32 PM
Though I agree that this game may have been made in bad taste, how is this any different from Wolfenstien?
Wolfenstein revived the century-long-standing stereotype of Germans as unthinking, evil Nazi militarists and directly contributed to the emasculation of the German male and the continued trend of German females selling out their bodies to Anglo-Saxon Protestants. And what's the result? It's an open season on defenseless Krauty: Every year in America thousands of German-Americans are murdered, by whites, blacks, and Latinos alike. We should all protest Wolfenstein no matter what our race because this kind of evil racist stereotyping kills, and has no place in our modern, enlightened, politically correct society!

[BeTheReds]

If you don't like it then don't buy it. It is that simple.

I don't understand all these people who think that everyone is too stupid to think for themselves and and think that people's lives and opinions are shaped by things they see on TV, or video games.

[MellowDrama]

Read the article. It says they're saying gook every minute of the game. To me, it sounds like it's teaching kids racial slurs.

OK, let's flip the script.

Come out with a game about the Civil War where we can shoot the NIGGER NIGGER NIGGERS. Shit, while we're at it, let's do a game about the Mexican-American War we can shoot the SPICS SPICS SPICS

I'm up for it, how about you?


:rolleyes:

[AngryABCGirl]

Hey, no need to jump all over every newbies ass.

[Emperor_Mike]

Let's not crucify the developers for treading on something that may or may not have any negative racial undertones. We are dealing with a game that is (more or less) based on historical events and the dialogue, though highly suspect, was part of the time. We see it in movies, we see it in books, so why not in video games? There's absolutely no need to call the cavalry in for something like this.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by MellowDrama@Jun 24 2003, 01:53 AM
Read the article. It says they're saying gook every minute of the game.&nbsp; To me, it sounds like it's teaching kids racial slurs.

OK, let's flip the script.

Come out with a game about the Civil War where we can shoot the NIGGER NIGGER NIGGERS. Shit, while we're at it, let's do a game about the Mexican-American War we can shoot the SPICS SPICS SPICS
If in-game characters were calling Mexican soldiers spics or wetbacks, that might be a sign of the developers' racism. Or it might just be shoddy research, since "greaser" appears to have been the popular term back in the 1800s.

In any case, would you rather be teaching a kid the falsehoods that soldiers in a terrible war were perfect humans who never once cursed at the enemy, unlike the evil people that kid sees on the street?

[My Name Is...]

I am not familiar with war video games. Do others employ racist slurs?

[BigLew]

This is a game not a movie. In a movie you do not take control of the character that says things like "Fucking GOOK!" every time the blast someones head off. In a movie you are watching a story not taking part of it. You want it to be more historically correct, why not call the developers and tell them to give the characters the ability to rape innocent women in villages, tell them to put in the ability to shoot and blow up innocent civilians and children and then count them as civilian Vietong sympathizers after all there were no dead Vietnamese in the Vietnam war just Communist Vietcong and thier sympathizers.

I know about the Ethnic Cleansing video game. The difference is this game is backed by major producers and you will be able to get it at your local Target Best buy, or video game retailer in a shopping mall. Not some special order through the racist redneck network.

If you want to see the effect it has on people who enjoy the game there is an enthusiast forum linked from the vietcong game main site, where the members are just sooo happy that this is the first game they've ever played where every time you blow someone up you get to hear "Fucking GOOK!" Someone complained to one member about the profanity and his response was basically "who cares they're just fucking gooks?" That's the kind of sentiment you don't mind people having, are you fucking kidding me!?! How is it so damn hard to see it's black and white there is no fine line. This game is promoting violent anti-Vietnamese/Asian sentiment.

Do you think people would have gotten away with a game about American slavery and to be "historicaly correct" your character as the slave master gets to whip "you NIGGERS" into shape as you race other plantation owners in the growing of the cotton industry.

[rakovlam]

That's a great attitude rakovlam

I know, it's the one that prevents me from concentrating on stupid things like a video game. I got better things to do... like Counter-Strike!

[SunWuKong]

everyone is entitled to their own opinions.<br>please stop with the personal attacks.

[SunWuKong]

i'd have to say that i support doing something against this company. the least of which would be sending them emails and letters. using a racial slur so freely like that is taking it a bit too far.

this is the email i sent them:

Let's be real here.&nbsp; Using the word "gook", a racial slur, so freely in a video game is taking it a bit too far.&nbsp; This is extremely offensive.&nbsp; While kids may be able to distinguish the difference between killing someone in a video game, and killing someone in real life, they may not know that it is not OK to use racial slurs.&nbsp; This game, in effect, is making it seem like a "cool" thing to do to yell out racial slurs.

It is true that American GIs did freely use the word "gook".&nbsp; But if your intent truly is realism, then maybe you can also include the killing of children and the raping of women, because incidents like that did occur in the Vietnam War.

[DragonKnight]

Originally posted by rakovlam@Jun 24 2003, 06:38 AM
Well... welcome to Yellowworld, an INTERNET forum.
Well, in that case... http://www.norcalcelicas.org/albums/misc/mennoooohhhhhh.gif

Ah, I feel sooooo much better. :D

[ChairmanMah]

Well, it's a lot of kids playing this game and you know how impressionable they are.

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I say, let's petition for the removal of slurs and change the name of the game to something generic and not directed towards the vietnam war.

[VV o n g B a]

after reading the linked reviews on this game, i'd have to say that the use of slurs was unnecessary. there aren't any object lessons involved about loss of conscience and humanity. i believe there are games that can teach those lessons because i've played them. but this game isn't doing any of that. it seems like the slurs were thrown in just for "color." this definitely needs to stop.

but i really think this one is a lost cause. even if the developers release a patch that takes the words out, ppl are gonna release homemade patches that put them back in. thats just the nature of stuff that gets put on the pc...

[Di_Jai]

For those who do see a concern for this. I'd like to thank you for your support. For those who don't see a need to act. That's your opinion and your choice. I respect your choice for not putting your time into it but how I choose to spend my time is my choice. I'm here to raise awareness so that those who feel this is a concern can act. You want to flame, go right on ahead. It's a reflection on yourselves and has nothing to do with BigLew or I. If all this is about is flaming someone who's new here then we're clearly wasting our time here and don't feel the need to bring this matter to your attention any further. Thanks again to those who choose to listen.


himura-dono,

You'll be sad to know that of ALL the emails that I sent out. Of all the forums that I posted this issue on. Your the only one I had to spell things out for. But hey whateva...

[Tao]

hmm.....i think I'll d/l this game first....see how the slurs are being used...whether it's as a mark of the loss of humanity or just there to please little suburbanites, then make a decision.

[VV o n g B a]

i just wrote them a letter that said since the cat's out of the bag, they should release a free addon series of missions that included the stuff about the tragedies that racism caused in vietnam. i think that would have the most potential to get installed by ppl and be played and still be able to teach a lesson.

[MellowDrama]

Originally posted by VV o n g B a@Jun 24 2003, 11:03 AM
...they should release a free addon series of missions that included the stuff about the tragedies that racism caused in vietnam. .
About as likely as US television showing Iraqi kids with their heads and arms fucking blown off and shit from US bombs.

[deez nuts]

e-mail sent.

[Emperor_Mike]

Well, let's not get in a scruffle over this. Send a letter if it concerns you because you should to voice your opinions. Just don't make it seem like it's the end of the world and that we're being persecuted left and right.

That said, I'll run an email off as well, I suppose. If anything, I'd be interested in hearing why such words and phrases were put in to begin with.

[BeTheReds]

Okay I will about face.

It is one thing when some npc in a video game uses a racial slur, like an enemy, or someone on your own side who you do not control, but it is entirely different when the main character that you do control is going around saying them.

While wolfenstein itself was pretty stereotypical, the main character didn't go around calling everyone a kraut, even tho all the enemies would run around saying "achtung" and "seig hiel" every few seconds.

Then again, this game is probably going to be rated MA17, so I don't see it as something kids are going to just go pick up and buy.

[himura-dono]

i still think the smarter thing is to voice complaint to stores that will be carrying it, rather then a development company who's just glad it's over and can start mass producing it.

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by himura-dono@Jun 24 2003, 05:18 PM
i still think the smarter thing is to voice complaint to stores that will be carrying it, rather then a development company who's just glad it's over and can start mass producing it.
I agree.

That's all. No lengthy diatribe from me.

[mr. x]

i think on the whole its harder to be "activist" against games b/c video games are still marginalized as an art form in terms of respectability so people tend to say "so what its just a video game!" even asian people will say this

hell i have a copy of vietcong sitting next to me as i speak (pirated of course!)

[mr. x]

reminds me of hitman 1 cuz in it you gotta kill a triad boss and the triads are basically dressed in traditional chinese getup which a triad would NOT do. theres also a asian prostitute u have the option of rescuing (no hanky spanky she just kisses u and then he shudders like he's disgusted)

i wasnt offended but it was laughably stereotypical and the thing was its a great game

hitman 2's great too, its got a japanese yakuza in it but on the whole i think it was better cuz the guys looked more like what a yakuza would really look like (though a later mission has you assasinating his father in a castle, filled with guess what? ninjas)

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by mr. x@Jun 24 2003, 07:25 PM
i think on the whole its harder to be "activist" against games b/c video games are still marginalized as an art form in terms of respectability so people tend to say "so what its just a video game!" even asian people will say this

hell i have a copy of vietcong sitting next to me as i speak (pirated of course!)
Pirated software is frowned upon by the ISC2. ;)

[AngryABCGirl]

I've actually taken a look at some of the links, and in principle too, there really should not be any racial slurs in a nationally-released video game, it's offensive, crude, and wholly unnecessary in the game itself. So why should it be there and why should be stand for it? No video game would come on called "Civil War" and have dialougue like "Get those niggers," why should one about the Vietnam War come out with racial slurs against Asians?

[ShortNBitter]

once again every1 is blowing things out of proportion. you dont use words like "gook." end of story. besides- u could get shot by my homiez. <_<


seriously :unsure:

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@Jun 24 2003, 09:10 PM
I've actually taken a look at some of the links, and in principle too, there really should not be any racial slurs in a nationally-released video game, it's offensive, crude, and wholly unnecessary in the game itself. So why should it be there and why should be stand for it? No video game would come on called "Civil War" and have dialougue like "Get those niggers," why should one about the Vietnam War come out with racial slurs against Asians?
We don't have to stand for it, but we also shouldn't go about making this into one big affair. Like Himura-Domo said, target the resellers and not the programmers because the matter is entirely out of the developer's hands. If we wish to make an impact, get the stores to stop selling it and attempt to force Take-2-Interactive to create a patch.

Then again, some enterprising individual will probably circumvent the process any way. I haven't played Vietcong and don't intend to, but it's likely that the sound files are in .WAV or .MP3 format and can be easily changed so it works both ways. You try to stop it and some idiot will put it back in. A recent enquiry has also brought to light that certain gamers are making blood patches (to increase the gore, I gather) so that probably means that the game is moddable to a certain extent.

We can't win in this instance and nothing tangible will come of it. Besides, it's a video game and you know how far federal legislation has gone to prevent unnecessary gore in PC/MAC/console titles along with their success rates. Target the source of the problem (which is society's perceptions in general) and try not to have a go at a software company that made a dubious decision to include objectionable material. After all, their efforts are the result of a trickle-down effect that somehow put into the developer's head that this is an OK thing to do.

[ShortNBitter]

just becuz its a video game doesnt mean it wont do harm. all hate starts small... if we dont stop it it will grow. :huh:

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by ShortNBitter@Jun 24 2003, 09:24 PM
just becuz its a video game doesnt mean it wont do harm. all hate starts small... if we dont stop it it will grow. :huh:
The same can be said about gun violence in FPS titles and there were protests when games like Kingpin and Soldier of Fortune came out. Didn't get very far, now did it? However, I will concede that our matter is a different issue. We have options, you know. We can either go for the developer (which will make no sense in the long term) or we can go after the distributer, which is slightly more productive.

But all this hollering and crying over racist comments in the media will only take us so far if we ignore the bigger problem at hand, which is society. An arbitrary protest is like papering over a serious concern. You get at the surface, but the foundation still remains wretched and rotten to the core. So let's get ourselves organised for something that deals with racial difficulties at the root. It's the proper thing to do if we want to liquidate incidents like this in the future.



Edit: Used the wrong word somewhere in the post.

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by Emperor_Mike@Jun 24 2003, 09:20 PM
We don't have to stand for it, but we also shouldn't go about making this into one big affair. Like Himura-Domo said, target the resellers and not the programmers because the matter is entirely out of the developer's hands. If we wish to make an impact, get the stores to stop selling it and attempt to force Take-2-Interactive to create a patch.

Then again, some enterprising individual will probably circumvent the process any way. I haven't played Vietcong and don't intend to, but it's likely that the sound files are in .WAV or .MP3 format and can be easily changed so it works both ways. You try to stop it and some idiot will put it back in. A recent enquiry has also brought to light that certain gamers are making blood patches (to increase the gore, I gather) so that probably means that the game is moddable to a certain extent.

We can't win in this instance and nothing tangible will come of it. Besides, it's a video game and you know how far federal legislation has gone to prevent unnecessary gore in PC/MAC/console titles along with their success rates. Target the source of the problem (which is society's perceptions in general) and try not to have a go at a software company that made a dubious decision to include objectionable material. After all, their efforts are the result of a trickle-down effect that somehow put into the developer's head that this is an OK thing to do.
We don't have to make it a whole big affair, but we definitely shouldn't sit there and do nothing, doing something is always better than doing nothing. People need to know that there are Asians out there who care about how they're being labeled.

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@Jun 24 2003, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by Emperor_Mike@Jun 24 2003, 09:20 PM
We don't have to stand for it, but we also shouldn't go about making this into one big affair. Like Himura-Domo said, target the resellers and not the programmers because the matter is entirely out of the developer's hands. If we wish to make an impact, get the stores to stop selling it and attempt to force Take-2-Interactive to create a patch.

Then again, some enterprising individual will probably circumvent the process any way. I haven't played Vietcong and don't intend to, but it's likely that the sound files are in .WAV or .MP3 format and can be easily changed so it works both ways. You try to stop it and some idiot will put it back in. A recent enquiry has also brought to light that certain gamers are making blood patches (to increase the gore, I gather) so that probably means that the game is moddable to a certain extent.

We can't win in this instance and nothing tangible will come of it. Besides, it's a video game and you know how far federal legislation has gone to prevent unnecessary gore in PC/MAC/console titles along with their success rates. Target the source of the problem (which is society's perceptions in general) and try not to have a go at a software company that made a dubious decision to include objectionable material. After all, their efforts are the result of a trickle-down effect that somehow put into the developer's head that this is an OK thing to do.
We don't have to make it a whole big affair, but we definitely shouldn't sit there and do nothing, doing something is always better than doing nothing. People need to know that there are Asians out there who care about how they're being labeled.
I would like to think that the general consensus in public is that racially inflammatory bits are a no-no. The question remains is what do we expect to accomplish aside from reaffirming the status quo that racist labels are a bad thing? We should be working toward pre-empting incidents like these in the future rather than confront such issues if and when they materialise with the same old tired pitch of "this is unacceptable so do something about it."

In the end it's up to us to make a difference in how society views Asians across the spectrum. Protesting a stupid move like the one perpetrated by Take-2-Interactive will only highlight what's already been established, that we won't stand for such transgressions. But what then? Are we going to adopt this measure as a solution to all future incidents? I certainly hope not. We definitely need something long term.

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by Emperor_Mike@Jun 24 2003, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@Jun 24 2003, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by Emperor_Mike@Jun 24 2003, 09:20 PM
We don't have to stand for it, but we also shouldn't go about making this into one big affair. Like Himura-Domo said, target the resellers and not the programmers because the matter is entirely out of the developer's hands. If we wish to make an impact, get the stores to stop selling it and attempt to force Take-2-Interactive to create a patch.

Then again, some enterprising individual will probably circumvent the process any way. I haven't played Vietcong and don't intend to, but it's likely that the sound files are in .WAV or .MP3 format and can be easily changed so it works both ways. You try to stop it and some idiot will put it back in. A recent enquiry has also brought to light that certain gamers are making blood patches (to increase the gore, I gather) so that probably means that the game is moddable to a certain extent.

We can't win in this instance and nothing tangible will come of it. Besides, it's a video game and you know how far federal legislation has gone to prevent unnecessary gore in PC/MAC/console titles along with their success rates. Target the source of the problem (which is society's perceptions in general) and try not to have a go at a software company that made a dubious decision to include objectionable material. After all, their efforts are the result of a trickle-down effect that somehow put into the developer's head that this is an OK thing to do.
We don't have to make it a whole big affair, but we definitely shouldn't sit there and do nothing, doing something is always better than doing nothing. People need to know that there are Asians out there who care about how they're being labeled.
I would like to think that the general consensus in public is that racially inflammatory bits are a no-no. The question remains is what do we expect to accomplish aside from reaffirming the status quo that racist labels are a bad thing? We should be working toward pre-empting incidents like these in the future rather than confront such issues if and when they materialise with the same old tired pitch of "this is unacceptable so do something about it."

In the end it's up to us to make a difference in how society views Asians across the spectrum. Protesting a stupid move like the one perpetrated by Take-2-Interactive will only highlight what's already been established, that we won't stand for such transgressions. But what then? Are we going to adopt this measure as a solution to all future incidents? I certainly hope not. We definitely need something long term.
We definitely need to do both. There's no way we can do something pre-emptively now, because that means people would have to realize they can't use racial slurs against Asians, a mentality that doesn't exist now that needs to start.

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@Jun 24 2003, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by Emperor_Mike@Jun 24 2003, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@Jun 24 2003, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by Emperor_Mike@Jun 24 2003, 09:20 PM
We don't have to stand for it, but we also shouldn't go about making this into one big affair. Like Himura-Domo said, target the resellers and not the programmers because the matter is entirely out of the developer's hands. If we wish to make an impact, get the stores to stop selling it and attempt to force Take-2-Interactive to create a patch.

Then again, some enterprising individual will probably circumvent the process any way. I haven't played Vietcong and don't intend to, but it's likely that the sound files are in .WAV or .MP3 format and can be easily changed so it works both ways. You try to stop it and some idiot will put it back in. A recent enquiry has also brought to light that certain gamers are making blood patches (to increase the gore, I gather) so that probably means that the game is moddable to a certain extent.

We can't win in this instance and nothing tangible will come of it. Besides, it's a video game and you know how far federal legislation has gone to prevent unnecessary gore in PC/MAC/console titles along with their success rates. Target the source of the problem (which is society's perceptions in general) and try not to have a go at a software company that made a dubious decision to include objectionable material. After all, their efforts are the result of a trickle-down effect that somehow put into the developer's head that this is an OK thing to do.
We don't have to make it a whole big affair, but we definitely shouldn't sit there and do nothing, doing something is always better than doing nothing. People need to know that there are Asians out there who care about how they're being labeled.
I would like to think that the general consensus in public is that racially inflammatory bits are a no-no. The question remains is what do we expect to accomplish aside from reaffirming the status quo that racist labels are a bad thing? We should be working toward pre-empting incidents like these in the future rather than confront such issues if and when they materialise with the same old tired pitch of "this is unacceptable so do something about it."

In the end it's up to us to make a difference in how society views Asians across the spectrum. Protesting a stupid move like the one perpetrated by Take-2-Interactive will only highlight what's already been established, that we won't stand for such transgressions. But what then? Are we going to adopt this measure as a solution to all future incidents? I certainly hope not. We definitely need something long term.
We definitely need to do both. There's no way we can do something pre-emptively now, because that means people would have to realize they can't use racial slurs against Asians, a mentality that doesn't exist now that needs to start.
Which is where positive, wide-ranging actions and methods need to be adopted and rampant protesting needs to be diminished. Like I've always said, we cannot expect to be taken seriously if every single time we cry out in indignation at whatever suits the mood at that particular juncture. We can protest, but we shouldn't be doing it with reckless abandon and at any issue that pops up now and then. By all means, give the perpetrators your piece of mind, but don't turn every matter into something overly dramatic like the final battle between good and evil with gatherings of activist troops and such. We can accomplish much more with strong words AND strong actions rather than by actions alone.

People are aware that racial slurs a bad thing. Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, it doesn't matter. What we need to do is to begin a campaign (or join one) that encompasses all races and not just Asians. Why should equality be our own prerogative and not one that should be shared with others? Asian rights will only go so far. We need to have a grander vision of how things should/will be. Strength in numbers and all that.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@Jun 25 2003, 02:37 PM

We don't have to make it a whole big affair, but we definitely shouldn't sit there and do nothing, doing something is always better than doing nothing. People need to know that there are Asians out there who care about how they're being labeled.
I think most people know the difference between an enemy vietcong soldier and the average Asian-American.

[Erendani]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jun 25 2003, 08:28 AM
I think most people know the difference between an enemy vietcong soldier and the average Asian-American.
Yeah but games like this legitimize violence against Asians to racist and borderline racist people... contrary to what some people on this board think, white people do not work all that hard to make distinctions between different Asian nationalities (e.g. Vietnamese and Chinese) or Asians and Asian Americans. Just look at Mark Walhberg, or Jason Williams (formerly of the Sacramento Kings)... apparently anyone who has an Asian face is a "f**king Vietnamese" and had many Vietcong relatives rightly blown away in Vietnam. Racism in America is often well hidden but always simmering right below the surface. I never imagined these two prominent popular young white men had such racist attitudes.

And it's not the "nice" white folks that I'm worried about anyway, it's the borderline racist punks who thought about committing hate crimes, but never did up to this point. The racist high school kids, the white fratboys, etc... I'm afraid that a game like this may cause at least a handful of physical hate crime assaults in this country against some poor Asian kids who have nothing AT ALL in common with 1970 Vietcong soldiers except maybe the similar shape of their eyes.

Just two days ago I was driving down the freeway and some young white guy leans out the window and yells kung fu noises at me... hmm, now where did he get the idea that I know kung fu, I wonder. Maybe because he sees Asians doing kung fu on TV and in the movies all the time? Most Asian Americans I know don't know any kung fu at all.

I totally see this game influencing people's attitudes, especially young white males. And it's not a pleasant thought.

[Erendani]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@Jun 25 2003, 05:10 AM
No video game would come on called "Civil War" and have dialougue like "Get those niggers," why should one about the Vietnam War come out with racial slurs against Asians?
This is so true.

Why so much emphasis on historical accuracy when it comes to racial slurs? Who does it really hurt to leave racial slurs out of games? Who's really going to care that the word "gook" is missing from the game, as long as it's good and fun to play.

These computer games aren't really historically accurate anyway. The computer programmers have limited time and budgets (I am a computer programmer, trust me, I know).

Tradeoffs have to be made to release the game on time... consequently, the uniforms are not completely accurate, the locales are not historically accurate, the weapons and vehicles especially are not accurate, e.g. the M-16 rifle reports sound nothing like the real thing and the recoil is completely unlike reality (I know from personal experience, having fired the civilian equivalent CAR-15 rifle).

So, what's the big deal if racial slurs are missing from the game? If it makes the game less fun to play for you, maybe you have something wrong with you to begin with.

[BigLew]

For those who care here is some contact info for writing emails. The first step is getting the word out and making more aware.

william.wong@asm.ca.gov
ir@take2games.com
support@take2baltimore.com
isfeedback@NASDAQ.com
rmellenbergh@take2interactive.com.au
IQE@cityhall.nyc.gov
newyork@embassy.mzv.cz
kolar@pterodon.cz
alexander.kobayashi@asm.ca.gov
Alice.Tsoi@aaci.org
anil.babbar@mail.house.gov
Dennis.Chiu@aaci.org
hadas_rivera-weiss@ci.sf.ca.us
Hung.LeDang@aaci.org
senator@akaka.senate.gov
neil.Abercrombie@mail.house.gov

I also suggest contacting New York City and state offices as well as student organizations. The contact info for Take 2 and it's backers have already been posted.

[SunWuKong]

yeah, honestly, i don't know what we can do about the company itself. i'm a programmer and i know the process involved in the development of a project like this. they would have to spend lots of money just to take out the racial slurs. it's not just about changing the code. they have to change the code, regression test it all over again, burn new CDs, then ship them off. they definitely wouldn't just stop selling the game, because they'd have pretty much lost most of the money that was invested in it.

the best thing i can think of right now is to just email them. i don't think the company is being inherently racist. they're just being inherently ignorant and idiotic. the bottom line is that they want to make money, so if they get enough complaints about this game, i'm sure they won't put racial slurs in their games anymore.

[rakovlam]

No video game would come on called "Civil War" and have dialougue like "Get those niggers," why should one about the Vietnam War come out with racial slurs against Asians?

Well, I thought the Civil War was a war on slavery, not on slaves. Darn those hostory books.

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by rakovlam@Jun 25 2003, 08:50 AM

Well, I thought the Civil War was a war on slavery, not on slaves. Darn those hostory books.
The line "Get those niggers!" would've been conceivable if you were playing as a Confederate facing black Union troops. After all, there were many regiments that contained freed slaves.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jun 24 2003, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by himura-dono@Jun 25 2003, 01:32 PM
X, gimme gimme, i wanna play it to piss people off....

actually i wouldn't mind trying it to see how bad it is.

rofl, yeah it was done by someone on solid07 forums, and i asked permission to plop it in my sig here. person was thrilled. i laughed my ass off when i first saw it, i mean i think she's cute, and don't doubt lots of korean singers and actor/actresses have gone under the knife, but it was such a horrible photochop of her, lol.
Boa is all natural.

Ayumi Hamasaki on the other hand...
Hmm, well you'd think that with all that surgery, Ayumi would actually look kinda good.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by rakovlam@Jun 26 2003, 01:50 AM

Well, I thought the Civil War was a war on slavery, not on slaves. Darn those hostory books.
The civil war had nothing to do with slavery. It was a conflict between people who thought the government should be larger vs people who thought it should be smaller and that state's governments have more power than the national government.

Most northerners cared nothing about slavery.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jun 25 2003, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by rakovlam@Jun 26 2003, 01:50 AM

Well, I thought the Civil War was a war on slavery, not on slaves.&nbsp; Darn those hostory books.
The civil war had nothing to do with slavery. It was a conflict between people who thought the government should be larger vs people who thought it should be smaller and that state's governments have more power than the national government.

Most northerners cared nothing about slavery.
Hmm... i don't know if i would go as far as to say that it had nothing to do with slavery. i think it wasn't all about slavery, but it was at least partially about slavery, and its implications as well.

[BeTheReds]

Game without racial slurs....


Okay, so I clearly remember this game that was not very popular, but still entertaining called "Dust". It was a wild west game where you walk into some town with $10 in your pocket and nothing else, and you need to solve some mystery and get a few items and stuff. Don't really remember.

Anyway there is a Chinese guy who lives in the town and he helps you out from time to time by telling you secrets or hints if you go to his house. (He's sposed to be a fortune teller, but basically he tells you what to do next if you are absolutley lost.) He will also play checkers with you, and he is damn good.

Anyway, some of the white towns people are racist and dont like him being in their town. Two guys will confront you and they look clearly like redneck hillbillies, overalls, no shirt, and all. And in that stereotypical southern twang he says. "Them thar CHINESE r takin over this contry. You don't want to be known as the man who associates with those stinkin CHINEESE do ya?" Everyone gets the point, that racism is bad, but the character loses crediblity because when he is trying to be racist, he wont use any racial slurs.

I think it would have been more appropriate if this character in the game if he were to say chink instead. It is clear that this guy in the game is one of your enemies anyway.. (you get in a fight with him shortly after telling him that it isn't any of his business who you befriend..). So I think racial slurs do belong in video games in some cases.

VC I have not played yet, (and probably wont, since i hate FPS) however it is a known fact that many soldiers did refer to the enemy as "Gook". However i am still divided as to whether it is appropriate in this case.

[himura-dono]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jun 25 2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jun 24 2003, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by himura-dono@Jun 25 2003, 01:32 PM
X, gimme gimme, i wanna play it to piss people off....

actually i wouldn't mind trying it to see how bad it is.

rofl, yeah it was done by someone on solid07 forums, and i asked permission to plop it in my sig here. person was thrilled. i laughed my ass off when i first saw it, i mean i think she's cute, and don't doubt lots of korean singers and actor/actresses have gone under the knife, but it was such a horrible photochop of her, lol.
Boa is all natural.

Ayumi Hamasaki on the other hand...
Hmm, well you'd think that with all that surgery, Ayumi would actually look kinda good.
a friend of mine saw this really wierd picture of her and he was all, "she looks like a monkey :o " it was one of those pictures where she's got hella bead and shit all over. i couldn't stop laughing. :lol:

[angel nympho]

Ok, umm.. back to the topic:

I don't really know that much about the game and its' dialogue and whatever... but from what I know as of right now (which isn't a whole lot, admittedly), I don't really see how this game is any different from other shooting games and war games when you recognize the enemy as Germans or Russians and stuff. It's not like the game takes place on the streets of Los Angeles, and you're mission is to shoot minorities on the street. Apparently, the goal is to shoot the enemy in war... and let's face it, in the Vietnam War, the enemy was Asian.

But I don't think the game should include any, like, racial slurs or things like that... but then again, it kinda does work to recreate the time. Either way... I don't know. I'm on the fence about this one, I could see it going either way.

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jun 25 2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by rakovlam@Jun 26 2003, 01:50 AM

Well, I thought the Civil War was a war on slavery, not on slaves. Darn those hostory books.
The civil war had nothing to do with slavery. It was a conflict between people who thought the government should be larger vs people who thought it should be smaller and that state's governments have more power than the national government.

Most northerners cared nothing about slavery.
Slavery was most definitely the primary issue. The North was less dependent on the slave trade than the South with its abundance of plantations that required a hefty labour force. Soon after the Declaration of Independence the trade in human beings had largely ended in the Northern States while it continued to thrive in the South. The only reason why the illicit commercial activity remained in place was due to the fact that the Southern delegates insisted on it and the North continued to view it as a money maker. It was only until 1808 that Congress voted to abolish the practise of importing slaves, but localised trade still flourished, which lead to the heavy dependence on captive labour to fuel the South's economy well into the mid 19th century.

The issue of government that arose as a section of the causes of the American Civil War grew directly out of the South's perception that the growing Congressional representation of the Northern States would eventually reach a point where there enough votes will be garnered to abolish slavery (in addition to the gradual stifling of the South's voice in Congress,) never mind that it was protected under the Constitution and that it would've been nearly impossible to pass amendments to get rid of it. It was this growing sectionalism between the North and South within the United States, borne of the issue on slavery, that led to the attack on Fort Sumter right up to the end of major actions at Appomattox Court House.

So as you can see, slavery was a key concern that served as the fuel in the Civil War. Sectionalism, mistrust between the North and South eventually became the spark that lit an entire country ablaze.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by Emperor_Mike@Jun 25 2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jun 25 2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by rakovlam@Jun 26 2003, 01:50 AM

Well, I thought the Civil War was a war on slavery, not on slaves. Darn those hostory books.
The civil war had nothing to do with slavery. It was a conflict between people who thought the government should be larger vs people who thought it should be smaller and that state's governments have more power than the national government.

Most northerners cared nothing about slavery.
Slavery was most definitely the primary issue. The North was less dependent on the slave trade than the South with its abundance of plantations that required a hefty labour force. Soon after the Declaration of Independence the trade in human beings had largely ended in the Northern States while it continued to thrive in the South. The only reason why the illicit commercial activity remained in place was due to the fact that the Southern delegates insisted on it and the North continued to view it as a money maker. It was only until 1808 that Congress voted to abolish the practise of importing slaves, but localised trade still flourished, which lead to the heavy dependence on captive labour to fuel the South's economy well into the mid 19th century.

The issue of government that arose as a section of the causes of the American Civil War grew directly out of the South's perception that the growing Congressional representation of the Northern States would eventually reach a point where there enough votes will be garnered to abolish slavery (in addition to the gradual stifling of the South's voice in Congress,) never mind that it was protected under the Constitution and that it would've been nearly impossible to pass amendments to get rid of it. It was this growing sectionalism between the North and South within the United States, borne of the issue on slavery, that led to the attack on Fort Sumter right up to the end of major actions at Appomattox Court House.

So as you can see, slavery was a key concern that served as the fuel in the Civil War. Sectionalism, mistrust between the North and South eventually became the spark that lit an entire country ablaze.
Yeah but I think the whole point is that the North and the South didn't go to war because the North believed that slavery was slavery was immoral or cruel to those victimized and the South felt otherwise. It was simply more about how slavery and the effects of the slave trade (and your mentioned 'sectionalism') created and built upon the divide and conflict between the North and the South (and their respective economic interests).

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jun 25 2003, 04:03 PM
Game without racial slurs....


Okay, so I clearly remember this game that was not very popular, but still entertaining called "Dust". It was a wild west game where you walk into some town with $10 in your pocket and nothing else, and you need to solve some mystery and get a few items and stuff. Don't really remember.

Anyway there is a Chinese guy who lives in the town and he helps you out from time to time by telling you secrets or hints if you go to his house. (He's sposed to be a fortune teller, but basically he tells you what to do next if you are absolutley lost.) He will also play checkers with you, and he is damn good.

Anyway, some of the white towns people are racist and dont like him being in their town. Two guys will confront you and they look clearly like redneck hillbillies, overalls, no shirt, and all. And in that stereotypical southern twang he says. "Them thar CHINESE r takin over this contry. You don't want to be known as the man who associates with those stinkin CHINEESE do ya?" Everyone gets the point, that racism is bad, but the character loses crediblity because when he is trying to be racist, he wont use any racial slurs.

I think it would have been more appropriate if this character in the game if he were to say chink instead. It is clear that this guy in the game is one of your enemies anyway.. (you get in a fight with him shortly after telling him that it isn't any of his business who you befriend..). So I think racial slurs do belong in video games in some cases.

VC I have not played yet, (and probably wont, since i hate FPS) however it is a known fact that many soldiers did refer to the enemy as "Gook". However i am still divided as to whether it is appropriate in this case.
There's a fine line between historically accurate representation of dialogue and events and appropriateness, I suppose. In the (quasi) WWII-RTS Hearts of Iron all mention of the Endsolung, the Wannsee Conference, and camps like Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, Treblinka, Mauthausen, etc, etc. were take out for political sensibilities. I suppose one can relate that to this instance as it pertains to social decorum (in video games? I'm a trifle confused myself.)

But if we want to take action, approach the stores instead and by way of that, attempt to force the developers into creating a patch if we think it is such a pressing concern. Be warned, however, that this very likely a losing battle because people who want to preserve the dialogue (slurs and all) will find a way to bypass this.

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jun 25 2003, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Emperor_Mike@Jun 25 2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jun 25 2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by rakovlam@Jun 26 2003, 01:50 AM

Well, I thought the Civil War was a war on slavery, not on slaves. Darn those hostory books.
The civil war had nothing to do with slavery. It was a conflict between people who thought the government should be larger vs people who thought it should be smaller and that state's governments have more power than the national government.

Most northerners cared nothing about slavery.
Slavery was most definitely the primary issue. The North was less dependent on the slave trade than the South with its abundance of plantations that required a hefty labour force. Soon after the Declaration of Independence the trade in human beings had largely ended in the Northern States while it continued to thrive in the South. The only reason why the illicit commercial activity remained in place was due to the fact that the Southern delegates insisted on it and the North continued to view it as a money maker. It was only until 1808 that Congress voted to abolish the practise of importing slaves, but localised trade still flourished, which lead to the heavy dependence on captive labour to fuel the South's economy well into the mid 19th century.

The issue of government that arose as a section of the causes of the American Civil War grew directly out of the South's perception that the growing Congressional representation of the Northern States would eventually reach a point where there enough votes will be garnered to abolish slavery (in addition to the gradual stifling of the South's voice in Congress,) never mind that it was protected under the Constitution and that it would've been nearly impossible to pass amendments to get rid of it. It was this growing sectionalism between the North and South within the United States, borne of the issue on slavery, that led to the attack on Fort Sumter right up to the end of major actions at Appomattox Court House.

So as you can see, slavery was a key concern that served as the fuel in the Civil War. Sectionalism, mistrust between the North and South eventually became the spark that lit an entire country ablaze.
Yeah but I think the whole point is that the North and the South didn't go to war because the North believed that slavery was slavery was immoral or cruel to those victimized and the South felt otherwise. It was simply more about how slavery and the effects of the slave trade (and your mentioned 'sectionalism') created and built upon the divide and conflict between the North and the South (and their respective economic interests).
Slavery was a convenient casus belli, let's say. But it had real economic repercussions that the South was not willing to confront. That combined with a genuine dislike of being slowly elbowed out of government made for some pretty volatile stuff.

[BigLew]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Jun 25 2003, 04:08 PM
Apparently, the goal is to shoot the enemy in war... and let's face it, in the Vietnam War, the enemy was Asian.
Wrong the enemy was Americans. A short history lesson about the Vietnam conflict.

U.S. bombs dropped totalled over two million tons in Vietnam, and three million tons of explosives were used total by the U.S. That's more than the total amount of bombs dropped during WWI and WWII combined. Also 18 million gallons of poisonous chemicals were poured on Vietnam.

58,000 Americans perished in Vietnam.

The Vietnamese lost over three million (that is 3,000,000) of its citizens. I believe that was about a tenth of the population.

Policy makers cared more about the "Communist threat" than they did about "democracy and liberty" for the Vietnamese people. The Vietcong chose the Communist Party because they were the only ones who were willing to help them oust the the oppressive French colonial power. The Vietnamese were figting for thier home and thier nation not the Communist Party sad that none would help them BUT the Communist Party.

Let me say this again OVER 3 MILLION CASUALTIES. Of those casualties how many do you think were innocent civilian men, women and children. Most of them were. But how many of those casualties were counted as civilian innocents, almost none. When a Vietnamese person man,woman or child was found dead by war products (bombs, bullets) they were automatically tagged as a VCC-Vietcong Confirmed it was policy to feed propoganda that there was no civilian innocent casualty problem.

American soldiers tortured prisoners. American soldiers mass raped and murdered women and girls in epidemic numbers. American soldiers slaughtered entire villages of civilian men, women, children most infamous account being My Lai.

CIA's "Operation Phoenix" subjected Vietnamese prisoners to torture such as, electric shocking of the genitals to men and women, slowly stabbing of spikes into ears and into the brain of victims until they died.

Throwing people out of an airborne helicopter to make another prisoner talk.

[Emperor_Mike]

Friends, enemies...it's all relative in war. Depends what side you're on, really.

Having said that, I don't think Angel Nympho meant to trivialise the appalling Vietnamese casualties during the war. More over, high casualty rates do not correspond to a party's alignment in a conflict (i.e. good guys & bad guys) so your small lesson on the Vietnam War, while very informative (in a horrific sort of way,) doesn't serve to vindicate any points at all.

[tommyhtown]

Originally posted by Emperor_Mike@Jun 25 2003, 04:52 PM
Friends, enemies...it's all relative in war. Depends what side you're on, really.

Having said that, I don't think Angel Nympho meant to trivialise the appalling Vietnamese casualties during the war. More over, high casualty rates do not correspond to a party's alignment in a conflict (i.e. good guys & bad guys) so your small lesson on the Vietnam War, while very informative (in a horrific sort of way,) doesn't serve to vindicate any points at all.
It's hard to determine who's the real enemy in war. What about the South Vietnamese soldiers or the good GIs that lost their lives during the war? Who are the enemies and whose enemies? I guess the enemies are the ones who kill your friends, families, and your love ones I suppose.

I more than welcome the counterpoint from BigLew in reminding that the enemies are not only Asian in the Vietnam war.

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by tommyhtown@Jun 25 2003, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by Emperor_Mike@Jun 25 2003, 04:52 PM
Friends, enemies...it's all relative in war. Depends what side you're on, really.

Having said that, I don't think Angel Nympho meant to trivialise the appalling Vietnamese casualties during the war. More over, high casualty rates do not correspond to a party's alignment in a conflict (i.e. good guys & bad guys) so your small lesson on the Vietnam War, while very informative (in a horrific sort of way,) doesn't serve to vindicate any points at all.
It's hard to determine who's the real enemy in war. What about the South Vietnamese soldiers or the good GIs that lost their lives during the war? Who are the enemies and whose enemies? I guess the enemies are the ones who kill your friends, families, and your love ones I suppose.

I more than welcome the counterpoint from BigLew in reminding that the enemies are not only Asian in the Vietnam war.
Everyone's an enemy in war. Like I said, it's all relative. The only reason why so many people see things and events in black and white is because they were more or less taught/influenced in that manner.

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by Emperor_Mike@Jun 25 2003, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by rakovlam@Jun 25 2003, 08:50 AM

Well, I thought the Civil War was a war on slavery, not on slaves.&nbsp; Darn those hostory books.
The line "Get those niggers!" would've been conceivable if you were playing as a Confederate facing black Union troops. After all, there were many regiments that contained freed slaves.
Would anyone put that in a game though? I think not.

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@Jun 25 2003, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by Emperor_Mike@Jun 25 2003, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by rakovlam@Jun 25 2003, 08:50 AM

Well, I thought the Civil War was a war on slavery, not on slaves. Darn those hostory books.
The line "Get those niggers!" would've been conceivable if you were playing as a Confederate facing black Union troops. After all, there were many regiments that contained freed slaves.
Would anyone put that in a game though? I think not.
Then again, no one thought a company would include "Get those gooks!" in a product, now did they? ;)

[BigLew]

For those actually reading and paying attention. (Cause it's obvious some are not.)

Indochina was taken over by the French from around 1850. French took over Vietnam and made profits off of rubber plantations, one guess as to who the workers on the plantations were. Over on third of the Vietnamese workers slaving at these plantations died because of horrid working conditions.

France lost it's power when it fell to Germany in WWII. Then moved in the Japanese who used Vietnams rice produce to feed it's own armies leaving over 2 million Vietnamese to starve to death. Vietnamese Communist Party under Ho Chi Minh, rebelled and since it was in thier interest the United States lended aid to overthrow the Japanese. For the first time in history in 1945 Vietnam declared itself free with the aid of the U.S.

But not so long did that last. With the Allies winning victory over Germany the French mobilized and reclaimed thier southeast asian territory. The U.S. looked on as it happened and abandoned Vietnam after all the French were allies and the Japanese were the enemy. The French waged war to conquer Vietnam from 1946 to 1954. During this time take a wild guess at who was financing this war. The good old U.S. of A. The U.S. had provided around 80% of the French armed forces funding while Vietnam President Ho Chi Minh pleaded with U.S. Pres. Truman to stop helping the French in thier effort to rule and enslave Vietnam once again. The cry would fall on deaf ears. Eventually with the advent of the cold war ad scare of the spread of the Reds the U.S. sent in thier own troops to fight for a puppet "Democratic" government.

[rakovlam]

Care to explain to me what happened AFTER the Americans left Indochina. It wasn't peace and it involves a few million slaughtered.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by BigLew@Jun 26 2003, 12:39 AM
Wrong the enemy was Americans. A short history lesson about the Vietnam conflict.

U.S. bombs dropped totalled over two million tons in Vietnam, and three million tons of explosives were used total by the U.S. That's more than the total amount of bombs dropped during WWI and WWII combined. Also 18 million gallons of poisonous chemicals were poured on Vietnam.

58,000 Americans perished in Vietnam.

The Vietnamese lost over three million (that is 3,000,000) of its citizens. I believe that was about a tenth of the population.

Policy makers cared more about the "Communist threat" than they did about "democracy and liberty" for the Vietnamese people. The Vietcong chose the Communist Party because they were the only ones who were willing to help them oust the the oppressive French colonial power. The Vietnamese were figting for thier home and thier nation not the Communist Party sad that none would help them BUT the Communist Party.

Let me say this again OVER 3 MILLION CASUALTIES. Of those casualties how many do you think were innocent civilian men, women and children. Most of them were. But how many of those casualties were counted as civilian innocents, almost none. When a Vietnamese person man,woman or child was found dead by war products (bombs, bullets) they were automatically tagged as a VCC-Vietcong Confirmed it was policy to feed propoganda that there was no civilian innocent casualty problem.

American soldiers tortured prisoners. American soldiers mass raped and murdered women and girls in epidemic numbers. American soldiers slaughtered entire villages of civilian men, women, children most infamous account being My Lai.

CIA's "Operation Phoenix" subjected Vietnamese prisoners to torture such as, electric shocking of the genitals to men and women, slowly stabbing of spikes into ears and into the brain of victims until they died.

Throwing people out of an airborne helicopter to make another prisoner talk.


Okay, what I meant was... from the perspective of an American soldier in the war..... the enemy was Asian.

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by BigLew@Jun 25 2003, 09:39 PM
For those actually reading and paying attention. (Cause it's obvious some are not.)

Indochina was taken over by the French from around 1850. French took over Vietnam and made profits off of rubber plantations, one guess as to who the workers on the plantations were. Over on third of the Vietnamese workers slaving at these plantations died because of horrid working conditions.

France lost it's power when it fell to Germany in WWII. Then moved in the Japanese who used Vietnams rice produce to feed it's own armies leaving over 2 million Vietnamese to starve to death. Vietnamese Communist Party under Ho Chi Minh, rebelled and since it was in thier interest the United States lended aid to overthrow the Japanese. For the first time in history in 1945 Vietnam declared itself free with the aid of the U.S

But not so long did that last. With the Allies winning victory over Germany the French mobilized and reclaimed thier southeast asian territory. The U.S. looked on as it happened and abandoned Vietnam after all the French were allies and the Japanese were the enemy.&nbsp; The French waged war to conquer Vietnam from 1946 to 1954. During this time take a wild guess at who was financing this war. The good old U.S. of A. The U.S. had provided around 80% of the French armed forces funding while Vietnam President Ho Chi Minh pleaded with U.S. Pres. Truman to stop helping the French in thier effort to rule and enslave Vietnam once again. The cry would fall on deaf ears. Eventually with the advent of the cold war ad scare of the spread of the Reds the U.S. sent in thier own troops to fight for a puppet "Democratic" government.

It's pretty clear and cut to me who the bad guys were. For those who are intent to just argue, you are fools that just like to win an argument I have no points to prove to you. Anything you can say against this, in saying that the U.S. effort in Vietnam was any good at this point just shows me that you are too brainwashed to accept anything real. With that you tell me how historically fucking correct this Vietcong game is. Good night.
Thank you for the impromptu history lesson, but I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with your statement. Some of us simply wish to view things from all perspectives before reaching our own conclusions. No one is denying that the war crimes perpetrated during the Vietnam conflict were a minor issue nor are we downplaying the significance of the appalling acts. In fact, many of us view the civilian strife in times of war with about as much horror as we would any matter that involves whole-sale massacre of non-combatants.

Nothing in life is as clear cut as we'd like for it to be. As AznBuffGirl mentioned, there were GIs who chose not to adopt the shameful practise of using racist terms. Lumping these men together with the bad apples is about as unequitable as things go.

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by BigLew@Jun 26 2003, 10:37 AM
This game is in a sense glorifying the conflict without acknowledging the atrocities. Yet there are still people who insist the word "Gook" was only put in the game for the context of historical correctness. Anyone that knows the facts about the actual conflict and realize how rooted the horrors were in racism, can see how ridiculous this argument can become.
when i made my comment about historical correctness, i hadn't read the reviews. i was lazy. but i got around to it and i agree w/ u. the game didn't acknowledge american atrocities and so "gook" serves no good purpose in the game. but without knowing the context in which it was used, i wasn't going to condemn it outright. the initial post didn't mention anything about how the plot went or specifically if the game acknowledged american atrocities. if they did, then i would agree with it's use. if they didn't, it's racist and wrong. but if u want a lot of ppl to agree with u quickly, u gotta spell out all the circumstances and not make ppl lookup everything themselves. it's the internet. ppl inherently have shorter attention spans and they WILL be lazy. u gotta expect that.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I agree that any type of racial slur should not be allowed in any video game (war simulation or not, historically accurate or not), regardless of the ethnicity or race of the enemy that you are fighting against. Also, regarding Wolfenstein (which I am unfamiliar with) I don't believe that 'nazi' is a racial slur (I don't even think it was actually used in the game) and therefore incomparable to the words 'gook', 'nigger', or 'chink'. There is simply no excuse IMHO. You can explain why people feel it is okay or 'not a big deal' to do this, but you can't justify their feelings to me.

[SunWuKong]

i am taking the liberty of editing people's posts out of the personal attacks that some of them contain. as i've said before, stop with the personal attacks. the only reason i'm letting this thread stay alive now is because i think it's an important issue.

please argue the issue, don't attack someone because of their opinions.

[himura-dono]

The internet is a big place bubba, it's not all the same. i disagreed with the way in which this was presented as well as the who you're emailing, but i have contacted Walmart, Target, Electronic Boutique and several major online video game stores explaining how i feel that they shouldn't carry this game. you may do well to follow my advice as it's too late for anything to be done as far as take-2 interactive is involved.

this is my final post in this thread, so if anyone wishes to flame me and wants me to see it, pm it to me. :)

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by BigLew@Jun 26 2003, 07:37 AM
As far your pompous tirade goes, you are saying absolutely nothing. Your arguments are to serve your own pleasure only, not to make any kind of valid point. But you sure are good at the use of big fancy words so you must think you are actually saying something pertinent. But please, keep on don’t let me discourage you. Go ahead and prove me right by launching into more meaningless rhetoric on why I shouldn't be fighting the way I do or on how my brand of activism should be based around YOUR image of how it should be done. Keep this thread going so more will read. I won't argue with you, I'll just keep posting facts and educating people like I have been. Again thanks for keeping the thread going and all hail "EMPORER" Mike.
The contents of my post ring true as far as the methods you're allegedly advocating are concerned and what you term as "meaningless rhetoric" is but an accurate perception on the futility of demagoguery in fighting for our Cause. You might want to actually read the entry before jumping to half-baked conclusions on the pertinence of my statements. You may hope to prove your point by strong words and token actions, but will the people who are the real agents of change be listening? My point has always been that rabid, emotionally charged brands of activism are ultimately useless endeavours. It has become the primary modus operandi for so many causes and utilised so often that the vast majority of the population look upon at as nothing more than a gathering of people who want to make noise. The issue itself usually takes second chair to the novelty of "going out to support your cause."

Activism with visionary leaders but without the support of the masses that make up the core of the activist network is a doomed experiment. Likewise, a mob of people who engage in directionless protests without the guidance offered by a group of men and women who have long term objectives will amount to nothing more than a continuous cycle of meaningless demonstrations. Every army needs a general and every general needs an army. The African-Americans had inspirational leaders like Martin Luther King and Malcolm X and it is to these great men that black society owes its greater social maneuverability. What the Asian-American community needs is an authority figure and a circle of individuals who can develop long term goals, not more campaigns that spring up from time to time to confront the stupidity and insensitivity of politicians, businessmen, etc, etc. To contain an outbreak of a disease, you must attack the origins and not simply handle events on a case-by-case basis.

In my home province of British Columbia the organisation I work for as a board member managed to partly fund the municipal and provincial campaigns of two Asian-Canadian candidates (on opposing parties, but in fact promoting the same agenda) and they have done much to bring Asian-Canadian/new immigrant social matters to light in City Council and Parliament where these issues have greater meaning with the full support of the populace. This is something that nothing but a full-scale protest/riot can ever hope to achieve and we accomplished it through moderation, careful long term planning, and vigourous community work. This is an achievement that our organisation is very proud of because it has given Asian-Canadians a voice where it really matters: in government. Coupled with an emboldened Asian community that now knows that they have a forum to state their concerns, we expect to be able to apply the needed pressure in Victoria to open its eyes to the social injustice within the province. This is real progress borne of true vision and not of arbitrary activism.

At this juncture, Asian American activists have a small group of people who are willing to demonstrate, but they do not have the leaders needed to effect REAL change. Worse still, if these protests are accomplished via means of "Angry Activism" we are in imminent danger of alienating potential supporters. If your methods advocate the advancement of our social agenda through extremist notions that Asian-Americans are being oppressed and treated as second class citizens and that we must adopt a combatitive stance to "win" our rights from an "enemy," then your means will do much to harm progress. However, if your belligerent posts are not an indication of your political philosophy and indeed, you possess a sense of moderation then by all means write all the letters you want. Just don't expect anything more than appeasement.

Finally, in retrospect, I admit that my previous entry was a bit strong, but I was disturbed with your tactless way of responding to other forum members. I am not in the business of forcing my views and methods (right or wrong as they may be) on others because it is my firm belief that everyone should be free to do as they wish, to their detriment if necessary. It's a laissez faire approach, but it's the only way people can educate themselves. Your motives are clear, honourable and commendable, but I hope in earnest that you will not find it necessary to adopt severe measures in your quest to support greater public awareness on the evils of racism.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by Emperor_Mike@Jun 26 2003, 11:00 AM
The contents of my post ring true as far as the methods you're allegedly advocating are concerned and what you term as "meaningless rhetoric" is but an accurate perception on the futility of demagoguery in fighting for our Cause. You might want to actually read the entry before jumping to half-baked conclusions on the pertinence of my statements. You may hope to prove your point by strong words and token actions, but will the people who are the real agents of change be listening? My point has always been that rabid, emotionally charged brands of activism are ultimately useless endeavours. It has become the primary modus operandi for so many causes and utilised so often that the vast majority of the population look upon at as nothing more than a gathering of people who want to make noise. The issue itself usually takes second chair to the novelty of "going out to support your cause."

Activism with visionary leaders but without the support of the masses that make up the core of the activist network is a doomed experiment. Likewise, a mob of people who engage in directionless protests without the guidance offered by a group of men and women who have long term objectives will amount to nothing more than a continuous cycle of meaningless demonstrations. Every army needs a general and every general needs an army. The African-Americans had inspirational leaders like Martin Luther King and Malcolm X and it is to these great men that black society owes its greater social maneuverability. What the Asian-American community needs is an authority figure and a circle of individuals who can develop long term goals, not more campaigns that spring up from time to time to confront the stupidity and insensitivity of politicians, businessmen, etc, etc. To contain an outbreak of a disease, you must attack the origins and not simply handle events on a case-by-case basis.

In my home province of British Columbia the organisation I work for as a board member managed to partly fund the municipal and provincial campaigns of two Asian-Canadian candidates (on opposing parties, but in fact promoting the same agenda) and they have done much to bring Asian-Canadian/new immigrant social matters to light in City Council and Parliament where these issues have greater meaning with the full support of the populace. This is something that nothing but a full-scale protest/riot can ever hope to achieve and we accomplished it through moderation, careful long term planning, and vigourous community work. This is an achievement that our organisation is very proud of because it has given Asian-Canadians a voice where it really matters: in government. Coupled with an emboldened Asian community that now knows that they have a forum to state their concerns, we expect to be able to apply the needed pressure in Victoria to open its eyes to the social injustice within the province. This is real progress borne of true vision and not of arbitrary activism.

At this juncture, Asian American activists have a small group of people who are willing to demonstrate, but they do not have the leaders needed to effect REAL change. Worse still, if these protests are accomplished via means of "Angry Activism" we are in imminent danger of alienating potential supporters. If your methods advocate the advancement of our social agenda through extremist notions that Asian-Americans are being oppressed and treated as second class citizens and that we must adopt a combatitive stance to "win" our rights from an "enemy," then your means will do much to harm progress. However, if your belligerent posts are not an indication of your political philosophy and indeed, you possess a sense of moderation then by all means write all the letters you want. Just don't expect anything more than appeasement.

Finally, in retrospect, I admit that my previous entry was a bit strong, but I was disturbed with your tactless way of responding to other forum members. I am not in the business of forcing my views and methods (right or wrong as they may be) on others because it is my firm belief that everyone should be free to do as they wish, to their detriment if necessary. It's a laissez faire approach, but it's the only way people can educate themselves. Your motives are clear, honourable and commendable, but I hope in earnest that you will not find it necessary to adopt severe measures in your quest to support greater public awareness on the evils of racism.
TOO MANY BIG AND FANCY WORDS!!! AGGHGHGHGHGHGHGHGH ROFL

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jun 26 2003, 11:04 AM
TOO MANY BIG AND FANCY WORDS!!! AGGHGHGHGHGHGHGHGH ROFL
What? There are no fancy words in there! Demagoguery? Pertinence?

...Approach? <_<

:D

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by Emperor_Mike@Jun 26 2003, 11:08 AM
What? There are no fancy words in there! Demagoguery? Pertinence?

...Approach? <_<

:D
Brevity is the key. I have the same problem. Maybe we are just circular communicators. Instead of saying 'The location at which we are currently situated exhibits a somewhat undesirable and repulsive aura seemingly incompatible with what would ultimately win favor with the various facets and quadrants which compose my sensory framework', we could just say 'this place sucks'. How 'bout it, eh? :D

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jun 26 2003, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Emperor_Mike@Jun 26 2003, 11:00 AM
The contents of my post ring true as far as the methods you're allegedly advocating are concerned and what you term as "meaningless rhetoric" is but an accurate perception on the futility of demagoguery in fighting for our Cause. You might want to actually read the entry before jumping to half-baked conclusions on the pertinence of my statements. You may hope to prove your point by strong words and token actions, but will the people who are the real agents of change be listening? My point has always been that rabid, emotionally charged brands of activism are ultimately useless endeavours. It has become the primary modus operandi for so many causes and utilised so often that the vast majority of the population look upon at as nothing more than a gathering of people who want to make noise. The issue itself usually takes second chair to the novelty of "going out to support your cause."

Activism with visionary leaders but without the support of the masses that make up the core of the activist network is a doomed experiment. Likewise, a mob of people who engage in directionless protests without the guidance offered by a group of men and women who have long term objectives will amount to nothing more than a continuous cycle of meaningless demonstrations. Every army needs a general and every general needs an army. The African-Americans had inspirational leaders like Martin Luther King and Malcolm X and it is to these great men that black society owes its greater social maneuverability. What the Asian-American community needs is an authority figure and a circle of individuals who can develop long term goals, not more campaigns that spring up from time to time to confront the stupidity and insensitivity of politicians, businessmen, etc, etc. To contain an outbreak of a disease, you must attack the origins and not simply handle events on a case-by-case basis.

In my home province of British Columbia the organisation I work for as a board member managed to partly fund the municipal and provincial campaigns of two Asian-Canadian candidates (on opposing parties, but in fact promoting the same agenda) and they have done much to bring Asian-Canadian/new immigrant social matters to light in City Council and Parliament where these issues have greater meaning with the full support of the populace. This is something that nothing but a full-scale protest/riot can ever hope to achieve and we accomplished it through moderation, careful long term planning, and vigourous community work. This is an achievement that our organisation is very proud of because it has given Asian-Canadians a voice where it really matters: in government. Coupled with an emboldened Asian community that now knows that they have a forum to state their concerns, we expect to be able to apply the needed pressure in Victoria to open its eyes to the social injustice within the province. This is real progress borne of true vision and not of arbitrary activism.

At this juncture, Asian American activists have a small group of people who are willing to demonstrate, but they do not have the leaders needed to effect REAL change. Worse still, if these protests are accomplished via means of "Angry Activism" we are in imminent danger of alienating potential supporters. If your methods advocate the advancement of our social agenda through extremist notions that Asian-Americans are being oppressed and treated as second class citizens and that we must adopt a combatitive stance to "win" our rights from an "enemy," then your means will do much to harm progress. However, if your belligerent posts are not an indication of your political philosophy and indeed, you possess a sense of moderation then by all means write all the letters you want. Just don't expect anything more than appeasement.

Finally, in retrospect, I admit that my previous entry was a bit strong, but I was disturbed with your tactless way of responding to other forum members. I am not in the business of forcing my views and methods (right or wrong as they may be) on others because it is my firm belief that everyone should be free to do as they wish, to their detriment if necessary. It's a laissez faire approach, but it's the only way people can educate themselves. Your motives are clear, honourable and commendable, but I hope in earnest that you will not find it necessary to adopt severe measures in your quest to support greater public awareness on the evils of racism.
TOO MANY BIG AND FANCY WORDS!!! AGGHGHGHGHGHGHGHGH ROFL

You should work on brevity (I have the same problem). Maybe we are just circular communicators. Instead of saying 'The location at which we are currently situated exhibits a somewhat undesirable and repulsive aura seemingly incompatible with what would ultimately win favor with the various facets and quadrants which compose my sensory framework', we could just say 'this place sucks'. How 'bout it, eh? :D
I've always had the Churchill-esque problem of over-elaboration. For example: instead of saying that something is a bald-faced lie, I've used:

"That is a terminological inexactitude!"

Churchill did the same, too. I think I've picked up his habits.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Damnit haha I decided to edit and split that post into two. Oh well

[BigLew]

Originally posted by himura-dono@Jun 26 2003, 10:29 AM
The internet is a big place bubba, it's not all the same.&nbsp; i disagreed with the way in which this was presented as well as the who you're emailing, but i have contacted Walmart, Target, Electronic Boutique and several major online video game stores explaining how i feel that they shouldn't carry this game.&nbsp; you may do well to follow my advice as it's too late for anything to be done as far as take-2 interactive is involved.&nbsp;

this is my final post in this thread, so if anyone wishes to flame me and wants me to see it, pm it to me. :)
Which is why I've already contacted these places.

These are the companies of whom I found the game on the website.

Wal-Mart.com USA, LLC
7000 Marina Blvd.
Brisbane, CA 94005
650-837-5000

Best Buy Co., Inc.
PO Box 9312
Minneapolis, MN 55440-9312
Tel: (612) 291-1000

Or write to us at:
BestBuy.com
Customer Care
PO Box 949
Minneapolis, MN 55440


Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/handle-g...0710&method=GET (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/handle-generic-form/002-1382413-5382417?action=next-page&target=stores/help/self-service-email-form-dispatch.html&display=basic&browse=560710&method=GET)

Electronics Boutique
help@ebgames.com
ir@ebgames.com

This is all I could come up with at the moment please ad to the list if anyone canfind any other retailers that might carry this game.

Here is the letter I wrote and am sending out feel free to plagerize the hell out of it for your own use.




Attn: Retailers of Vietcong

In recent months you have been selling a video game for the PC entitled “Vietcong”. I am writing to inform you that this is a product which racist and is a new low in popular entertainment. This game dehumanizes Vietnamese and Asian people with the use of racial slurs whilst gunning Vietnamese people down. The kind of sentiment this kind “entertainment” will breed will be hostile and dangerous to the members of the Asian American community.

In this game the protagonist (played by the player) is of course U.S. GI’s during the Vietnam Conflict. These characters rant racist rhetoric such as “Fuck me. Gotta find where all these GOOKS are coming from.” and “Fucking GOOK!” each time the player has scores a successful kill on “Charlie”. While your particular store or chain might only carry a version that is edited and the racial slurs are taken out, let’s be real we all know it is very easy to download a “patch” in seconds that will turn the game back into to the original hate spewing product it was at it’s conception.

People have made the argument in the past to me that the developers were just trying to be “historically correct” nothing more. This argument is absolutely ludicrous. If the intent was to be accurate historically by use of an offensive racial slur then they forgot to add many elements such as raping innocent girls and women and killing innocent farmer’s workers, women and children. I find it atrocious that a game like this can be mass produced.

Others have pointed out to me what if they made a game about the Civil War where you could play a confederate troop and kill Black American soldier while calling them “Nigger”. This game Vietcong is no different from this hypothetical scenario.

I have visited websites that have forums for discussion for this game’s enthusiasts. Obviously this game has succeeded in lowering the value of Vietnamese and all Asian life to some of these players. I say all Asians because as an Asian American who has been called every Asian racial slur in the book, no one ever stopped to ask what specific nationality I was born under before using racial slurs against me. The people on this forum seem to be ecstatic that there is a game where they get to kill people while calling them racial slurs. Also one member addressed another’s criticism of the use of racial slurs by basically saying “Big deal, they are only Gooks”. On another site, in a “walk through” guide to completing missions in the game, the author gives detailed description to where the location of the “Gooks” are hiding. Freely using this horrible racial slur while instructing others how to defeat this game. The way this racial slur was used so freely and casually was frightening.

Someone brought up another argument recently saying that this even (the Vietnam conflict) was a long time ago suggesting the ramifications of the racial slur “Gook” was no longer harmful. Well let me point out these more recent events that happened right here on U.S. soil to American Citizens who happened to be Asian:

1993
• Cambodian Americans Sophy Soeung and Sam Nhang Nhem are attacked outside their apartment Aug. 14 by several white men who call them “gooks.” Nhem dies shortly afterward.

1995
• Vietnamese American Thanh Mai and two Vietnamese American friends are in a nightclub in Alpine Township, Mich., on June 18 when three white men accost Mai, calling him a “gook.” One knocks him down, causing his skull to split and he dies.

1996
• Vietnamese American Thien Minh Ly, a 24-year-old master degree graduate of Georgetown University and a former student at UCLA, is stabbed to death March 3 by two “white supremacist types,” as described by police.
Investigators say one suspect, Gunner J. Lindberg, bragged to a friend, “Oh, I killed a Jap a while ago.”

I can keep going on but I think the picture has been painted.

Again it is dehumanizing, demoralizing and it directly lessening the life value of Asians. If you continue to sell this product this is the kind of sentiment you will be enforcing. Please, I implore you take this game off the shelves. Thank you.

[ChinaLama]

Re: Emp Mike. Remember that Churchill lost the election after the war. :) How do you expect to be leader of the free world if you talk too much? B)

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Jun 26 2003, 03:20 PM
Re: Emp Mike. Remember that Churchill lost the election after the war. :) How do you expect to be leader of the free world if you talk too much?&nbsp; B)
Churchill, like his ancestor the Duke of Malborough, was at his best in times of war. He was an average politician at best in situations where peace reigned. And I never said I wanted to be leader of the free world. I only said I wanted the world, it doesn't matter if it's free or not. :lol:

Okay, no more megalomaniacal jabs. You people shouldn't be feeding my dictatorial tendencies. :D

[aznpr1de101]

Come on guys. Grow some thick skin for crying out loud. I actually bought this game so I know a little what i'm talking about here and not just being all waaahhhh emotional :cry: .

First of all they only call the Vietcong gooks, not your allies which many of them are Vietnamese including your pointman. Personally I hate communists so I don't have a problem with this.

In the Vietnam war the word gook was common to use AGAINST THE ENEMY. Much in the same manner as using the word kraut was common against Nazis.

Sorry but this game is trying to be as accurate as possible in representing the war and frankly I think they did a good job. I really am not very big on politically correct bullshit and censorship, nor do I like the idea of sugarcoating history.

[aznpr1de101]

Also for all of you saying there should be no bad language in video games.

Uh hello? The first amendment? Sorry but I support freedom of speech and freedom of expression.

Maybe you guys should focus on something a little more serious than this petty shit. Like the fact that there aren't enough hollywood movies with regular Asian American roles in them. That always pisses me off. There's like plenty of movies about black people, yet hardly any about Asians.

[Tao]

to aznpr1de101:

you've been reading a lot of Ayn Rand haven't you?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by aznpr1de101@Jun 29 2003, 03:35 AM
Come on guys. Grow some thick skin for crying out loud. I actually bought this game so I know a little what i'm talking about here and not just being all waaahhhh emotional :cry: .

First of all they only call the Vietcong gooks, not your allies which many of them are Vietnamese including your pointman. Personally I hate communists so I don't have a problem with this.

In the Vietnam war the word gook was common to use AGAINST THE ENEMY. Much in the same manner as using the word kraut was common against Nazis.

Sorry but this game is trying to be as accurate as possible in representing the war and frankly I think they did a good job. I really am not very big on politically correct bullshit and censorship, nor do I like the idea of sugarcoating history.
firstly, welcome to YW. secondly, as i've already posted before, i'm taking the liberty of editing out any personal attacks in people's posts, so don't bother posting any more attacks.

they surely do have the freedom of speech. i don't think anyone here is advocating legislating against the use of racial slurs in video games. we are (or some of us are) simply letting the company know that this is offensive. i don't know about you, but everybody who had used a racial slur toward me did not do so because they think that i'm a communist, it was because they see that i'm Asian. normally i personally have pretty thick skin concerning things like movies, music, and video games, but in my opinion, using a racial slur is taking it too far.

since you have the video game itself, i would like to ask, do they depict the raping of women and the killing of children for the sake of depicting reality? do they depict the torturing of soldiers (by either side)? if they don't, then i suggest that they're already "sugarcoating history".

again, they still have the freedom of speech. but just so you know, the 1st Amendment was originally written to protect people's right to protest and speak out against the government. somehow, somewhere along the way, it extended to protecting artistic expression that may or may not have anything to do with speaking out against the government, and eventually "artistic expression" got extended to protect profit-making that may or may not actually involve "art", but which is covered by an umbrella definition of "art" anyway.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by aznpr1de101@Jun 29 2003, 03:52 AM
Also for all of you saying there should be no bad language in video games.

Uh hello? The first amendment? Sorry but I support freedom of speech and freedom of expression.

Maybe you guys should focus on something a little more serious than this petty shit. Like the fact that there aren't enough hollywood movies with regular Asian American roles in them. That always pisses me off. There's like plenty of movies about black people, yet hardly any about Asians.
are you being sarcastic?

i think not having enough Hollywood movies with regular Asian American roles in them is one of the pettiest things we can concern ourselves with.

[rakovlam]

Also for all of you saying there should be no bad language in video games.

Uh hello? The first amendment? Sorry but I support freedom of speech and freedom of expression.&nbsp;

True, but American society tends have self-censorship. That's why you won't see rape and torture in a video game or any legal media (unlike the Japanese where their hentai is mostly rape and torture but that's their societal issues). FIrst of all I don't know why the game has racial slurs in the first place but I don't care. The original issue was that supposedly this game somehow sets back decades of civil rights of Asian Americans (Vietcong, as you all know, aren't Asian Americans). That is why I really don't care what the game developers do because I'm probably not getting the game anyway. For those who don't think people will get away with racial slurs against blacks, that depends on who's doing it. Maybe you won't hear Confederate Troops (or any white looking southerner in a game) saying the n word, but I'm sure a game like Def Jam Vendetta (where rappers beat the crap out of each other) can easily get away with it (that is if they actually use the word in the game; I'm not sure). Also, I do not remember any video game that inspired millions to hate Asians.

I like to express how much progress Asians made in civil rights when one of the biggest issues right now involves movies and video games.

While your particular store or chain might only carry a version that is edited and the racial slurs are taken out, let’s be real we all know it is very easy to download a “patch” in seconds that will turn the game back into to the original hate spewing product it was at it’s conception.

or they could delete the .wav file with the slurs and replace it. It's not hard to copy new versions of games, publishers do it all the time. Only morons would go many lengths to put the slurs back into the game.

[aznpr1de101]

SunWuKung,

If you find the game so offensive, don't play it. But don't spoil it for other people.

You can't even buy the uncensored version in the U.S., so it is pointless to even tell the publishers that you were offended.

I don't believe this game will set back civil rights for Asians.

As for saying that not having enough Asians in Hollywood movies is petty, well if that's petty than surely this Vietcong game shouldn't even be an issue. :rolleyes:

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by aznpr1de101@Jun 29 2003, 06:08 PM
SunWuKung,

If you find the game so offensive, don't play it. But don't spoil it for other people.

You can't even buy the uncensored version in the U.S., so it is pointless to even tell the publishers that you were offended.

I don't believe this game will set back civil rights for Asians.

As for saying that not having enough Asians in Hollywood movies is petty, well if that's petty than surely this Vietcong game shouldn't even be an issue. :rolleyes:
as i've said, we're not advocating laws to ban the game. we're letting the company know that there are people who are offended the release of a video game that uses racial slurs so freely. the company will decide for itself whether they should change the game, or to not release any other games with racial slurs in them. businesses base their decisions on the market.

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by aznpr1de101@Jun 29 2003, 02:52 AM
Maybe you guys should focus on something a little more serious than this petty shit. Like the fact that there aren't enough hollywood movies with regular Asian American roles in them. That always pisses me off. There's like plenty of movies about black people, yet hardly any about Asians.
stop watching so much tv and movies, then.

[aznpr1de101]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jun 29 2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by aznpr1de101@Jun 29 2003, 06:08 PM
SunWuKung,

If you find the game so offensive, don't play it. But don't spoil it for other people.

You can't even buy the uncensored version in the U.S., so it is pointless to even tell the publishers that you were offended.

I don't believe this game will set back civil rights for Asians.

As for saying that not having enough Asians in Hollywood movies is petty, well if that's petty than surely this Vietcong game shouldn't even be an issue. :rolleyes:
as i've said, we're not advocating laws to ban the game. we're letting the company know that there are people who are offended the release of a video game that uses racial slurs so freely. the company will decide for itself whether they should change the game, or to not release any other games with racial slurs in them. businesses base their decisions on the market.
You are quite stubborn I see.

The game is ALREADY CENSORED in the United States!! Your petition to flood the publisher with complaints is pointless. This is such a moot point it's not funny. The Euro version is uncensored.

Also why is it bad for them to say gook at the enemy, but it's A OK with you for them to shoot VC and NVA troops? Maybe they should replace the VC and NVA troops with robots so it won't offend you?

The bottom line is they used that language against the enemy, not Asian Americans. Also I do not find it offensive. If YOU do, don't PLAY IT, but don't ruin it for others.

While we're at it, lets go censor Full Metal Jacket too okay?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by aznpr1de101@Jun 29 2003, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jun 29 2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by aznpr1de101@Jun 29 2003, 06:08 PM
SunWuKung,

If you find the game so offensive, don't play it. But don't spoil it for other people.

You can't even buy the uncensored version in the U.S., so it is pointless to even tell the publishers that you were offended.

I don't believe this game will set back civil rights for Asians.

As for saying that not having enough Asians in Hollywood movies is petty, well if that's petty than surely this Vietcong game shouldn't even be an issue. :rolleyes:
as i've said, we're not advocating laws to ban the game. we're letting the company know that there are people who are offended the release of a video game that uses racial slurs so freely. the company will decide for itself whether they should change the game, or to not release any other games with racial slurs in them. businesses base their decisions on the market.
You are quite stubborn I see.

The game is ALREADY CENSORED in the United States!! Your petition to flood the publisher with complaints is pointless. This is such a moot point it's not funny. The Euro version is uncensored.

Also why is it bad for them to say gook at the enemy, but it's A OK with you for them to shoot VC and NVA troops? Maybe they should replace the VC and NVA troops with robots so it won't offend you?

The bottom line is they used that language against the enemy, not Asian Americans. Also I do not find it offensive. If YOU do, don't PLAY IT, but don't ruin it for others.

While we're at it, lets go censor Full Metal Jacket too okay?
i am entitled to my opinions, and so are you.

so the word "gook" is actually not in the US version? well, that's good. but i still don't like the fact that they think it's ok to put it in in the first place. and please, the only thing this would "ruin" is that they don't yell "gook". they could make all the VC have slanty eyes and buck-teeth for all i care. i don't like that they think they can just freely use the word like that, and others agree with me. i hardly care that they're not using it against Asian Americans. and again, we're not advocating laws banning the use of racial slurs in video games. we're appealing to the company and telling them that its use is offensive.

how about this, if YOU don't find it offensive and you support the company, go buy a few more copies of the game. just let the market decide what is good and what is not.

[aznpr1de101]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jun 29 2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by aznpr1de101@Jun 29 2003, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jun 29 2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by aznpr1de101@Jun 29 2003, 06:08 PM
SunWuKung,

If you find the game so offensive, don't play it. But don't spoil it for other people.

You can't even buy the uncensored version in the U.S., so it is pointless to even tell the publishers that you were offended.

I don't believe this game will set back civil rights for Asians.

As for saying that not having enough Asians in Hollywood movies is petty, well if that's petty than surely this Vietcong game shouldn't even be an issue. :rolleyes:
as i've said, we're not advocating laws to ban the game. we're letting the company know that there are people who are offended the release of a video game that uses racial slurs so freely. the company will decide for itself whether the