N. & S. Korea

[Tracker00]

too lazy to look up info, but why did korea split up into north and south korea?

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by Tracker00@Jun 19 2003, 03:16 PM
too lazy to look up info, but why did korea split up into north and south korea?
Good question.

The short answer.
Korea was controlled by the Japanese from 1905-1945. Towards the end of World War 2, the Americans were desperately trying to get the Soviets to attack Japan, but the Soviets promised to help out only after Germany had been defeated.

Moments after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, the Soviets declared war on Japan, sending their troops into Manchuria. The USA knowing that in the future the Soviets would be their enemies in a cold war was eager to set up a democracy in Japan rather then allow it to be split up like Germany. After all the USA did do all the hard work in defeating Japan. They were willing to concede Korea to communism, however, when you bargain, you always ask for more than what you want, therefore the USA conceded the northern half of Korea to the Soviets, while the South was to be administered by the USA.

To the surprise of the USA, the Soviets accepted the artificial line drawn at 38N as the demarcation line to facilitate the prompt surrender of the Japanese occupying powers. In the aftermath of the war, the Soviets installed communist guerilla revolutionary Kim Il Sung as the head of state in Northern Korea. The USA meanwhile backed Yi Syngman, who had spent nearly his entire life in the USA after being exiled by the Japanese due to his pro-democracy/anti-colonization activites during the Japanese rule of the Korean peninsula.

The United nations decided that there should be democratic elections in the entire nation to choose which government the people wanted. The south agreed, the north did not. In the south, a democratic, capitalist government was voted for... (but in reality, Yi-Syngman's republic of Korea was a dictatorship... so would the next 4 Republics of Korea be until the mid 1980's.) The soviet backed Kim Il Sung refused to hold elections in the north, and claimed that Yi-Syngman had cheated in the south.

Both governments claimed to be the official government of the whole peninsula.

The USA drew a line on the globe of areas of strategic defense it would defend from communism. Everything on the USA's side of the line would be defended. the line encircled all of Western Europe, the entire Western Hemisphere, and Japan and the Philipines. Korea was not enclosed in the line.

North Korea saw this as the green light and began preparing for an invasion by using russian military equipment.

In summer of1950 (or was it 51), troops from North Korea crossed the 38th paralell and fought their way to seoul. The US acted quickly and appealed to the UN security council for UN action in south Korea, since the USA by itself had no business in South Korea based on the line it drew. The soviets could have vetoed the resolution to aid South Korea as they were one of the 5 countries with veto power in the council, however, they were boycotting the UN because of its recognition of Taiwan as China, and not Mao's China. Thus the UN resolved to aid South Korea.

I could go into the details of the war and how the Chinese got involved also, but that's going overboard.

Anyway the war ended with the south gaining a little land, and they agreed on a military cease fire and the border between north and south korea is heavily fortified.

In the early years, the North was prospering greatly while the south was floundering about living on US aid. Communism is great for war torn countries.

In the 1970's tho the south's economy surpassed the North's and has been ahead ever since.

[SunWuKong]

there was tension between the government that the communists set up and the government that the US set up from the very beginning. the communists didn't like the government in the south because the US put Japanese collaborators in positions of power, and the government in the south didn't like the communists because the people were picked by the US and the US was pretty much in control of the government in the south. while on the other hand, the Soviets had a very laissez-faire policy toward the communist government in the north.

the division was supposed to be temporary. the communists actually set up their government first, and it was the US that rejected it as the government for Korea after reunification, because it was communist, and they hastily put together a kind of government they want Korea to have after reunification.

[mr. x]

kinda sad that even russia and china arent hardcore communist, but here we have mr. kim determined to maintain juche even though it clearly isnt working

but wtf do i know

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by mr. x@Jun 20 2003, 02:52 AM
kinda sad that even russia and china arent hardcore communist, but here we have mr. kim determined to maintain juche even though it clearly isnt working

but wtf do i know
Clearly it is working.

Kim has all of North Korea wrapped around his finger and lives in luxury.

[SunWuKong]

is kim jong il's son going to take over for him when he dies/retires?

[mr. x]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jun 19 2003, 10:52 PM
is kim jong il's son going to take over for him when he dies/retires?
doesnt he have two sons?

from what i heard theres a power struggle cuz the older one is kinda like the uday of the family (he's the chubby guy who was detained shortly in japan)

and then there's kim jong nam who's the younger one studying in europe i think.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jun 20 2003, 03:52 PM
is kim jong il's son going to take over for him when he dies/retires?
He's named one of them as his heir. Not exactly sure which, but I think it might be the younger one. I think it might have something to do with having different moms and stuff.

Not sure on the details but one of them has been named heir.

[yoMAMA]

So, let's compare the two Koreas:

South:

we got Samsung, Hyundai, Daewoo, LG....and all the shit :D

North:

We got missles, WMD, a million man army with outdated russian/chinese equipments.....

we also eat grass

.....while our paramount leader Kim send his son to boarding school in switzerland and watches hollywood movies-which he forbids north koreans to watch.


And consider this:

Whe Kim II Sung (Kim bad hair dude's daddy) visited China in the 1980s, Deng Xiaoping, China's own elder statesman, who send tanks to tiananmen square in 1989, told him that 'this dynasty successsion' thing is really getting old. you need to reform the system.

And what did kim do?

He walked right out of Deng, took a train and went striaght back to pyongyong.

[mr. x]

Originally posted by yoMAMA@Jun 20 2003, 05:43 PM

Whe Kim II Sung (Kim bad hair dude's daddy) visited China in the 1980s, Deng Xiaoping, China's own elder statesman, who send tanks to tiananmen square in 1989, told him that 'this dynasty successsion' thing is really getting old. you need to reform the system.

And what did kim do?

He walked right out of Deng, took a train and went striaght back to pyongyong.
yeah, like i said about the hardcore communism thing it makes one wonder, what is it that makes kim so obsessed with the system to the point of thinking that
0+0 = 1? i mean is this a "korean" thing? i mean sure some koreans can be stubbornly traditional but this is just plain irrational

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by mr. x@Jun 21 2003, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by yoMAMA@Jun 20 2003, 05:43 PM

Whe Kim II Sung (Kim bad hair dude's daddy) visited China in the 1980s, Deng Xiaoping, China's own elder statesman, who send tanks to tiananmen square in 1989, told him that 'this dynasty successsion' thing is really getting old. you need to reform the system.

And what did kim do?

He walked right out of Deng, took a train and went striaght back to pyongyong.
yeah, like i said about the hardcore communism thing it makes one wonder, what is it that makes kim so obsessed with the system to the point of thinking that
0+0 = 1? i mean is this a "korean" thing? i mean sure some koreans can be stubbornly traditional but this is just plain irrational
hereditary succession is extremely un-communist.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by mr. x@Jun 19 2003, 12:52 PM
kinda sad that even russia and china arent hardcore communist, but here we have mr. kim determined to maintain juche even though it clearly isnt working
Juche was a political expedient in response to the double pressure of Russia and China, kinda like how Kim Il Sung switched his army over to Russian-style uniforms but kept himself wearing his Sun Yat Sen-style suits. Economic isolationism is definitely not standard communism. It's plain old idiotic nationalism, infused with a heavy dose of socialism (which is what communism almost always degenerates into ... national socialism). Lenin would have been shocked and disappointed at the failure of international solidarity of the proletariat.

[mr. x]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jun 21 2003, 01:15 AM
Juche was a political expedient in response to the double pressure of Russia and China, kinda like how Kim Il Sung switched his army over to Russian-style uniforms but kept himself wearing his Sun Yat Sen-style suits. Economic isolationism is definitely not standard communism. It's plain old idiotic nationalism, infused with a heavy dose of socialism (which is what communism almost always degenerates into ... national socialism). Lenin would have been shocked and disappointed at the failure of international solidarity of the proletariat.
exactly

i mean you couldnt even call em a commie fundamentalist as you would an Islamic fundamentalist b/c even the Islamic fundamentalists try to adhere strictly to the book while north korea seems to be every reason communism was created in the first place (an appaling class difference, a dictator who acts like a monarchy, ignorance of the people's basic needs)

[Ogumo]

After the japanese/american war. America and the u.s.s.r. split up korea just like germany.

[mr. x]

Originally posted by Ogumo@Jul 11 2003, 06:06 AM
After the japanese/american war. America and the u.s.s.r. split up korea just like germany.
again another sad example

germany was reunified peacefully and while koreans would love the same you know its all kims fault (who of course points his finger at the "imperialists" who's movies he loves so much)

[yoMAMA]

Germany was reunited because Gorbachev and the reformers allowed East Germany to do so, and pulled all the red army tank divisions out of there.

Otherwise, there would still be two Germanys right now.

[Ogumo]

Yeah thats true.

[mr. x]

Originally posted by yoMAMA@Jul 11 2003, 05:11 PM
Germany was reunited because Gorbachev and the reformers allowed East Germany to do so, and pulled all the red army tank divisions out of there.

Otherwise, there would still be two Germanys right now.
which shows what a stubborn fuck KJL is

i mean even KJL knows his country is falling behind, contrary to the delusional propaganda they play, so one wonders why it is he is this way. is it a pride thing?

[golden_buns]

which shows what a stubborn fuck KJL is

i mean even KJL knows his country is falling behind, contrary to the delusional propaganda they play, so one wonders why it is he is this way. is it a pride thing?


Not stubborn, just blinded and corrupted by power.
If you're the most powerful man in a country you won't want to lose your throne and you'll do whatever to keep things that way. No matter how backwards the country becomes, and no matter how many people you starve to death

[Chester]

which shows what a stubborn fuck KJL is

i mean even KJL knows his country is falling behind, contrary to the delusional propaganda they play, so one wonders why it is he is this way. is it a pride thing?

What the fuck are you blabbering about? North Korea is probably the most advanced and prosperous country in the universe...the universe being, by the way, one of the many things that Kim Jong Il invented.

[golden_buns]

What the fuck are you blabbering about? North Korea is probably the most advanced and prosperous country in the universe...the universe being, by the way, one of the many things that Kim Jong Il invented.


I got a good laugh, when Kim Jong Il came proudly blabbering about NK scientist producing their own computer hardware, their own OS, and networks. Apparently, the little guy thinks he can beat Intel, Microsoft, Cisco and the other big boys

[Red_Matrix]

Damn situation in North Korea makes me angry. Obviously, Kim Jong Il has no clue to what real communism means--a stateless and classless society. If he's such a supporter of communist ideology he should step down, give up all his money to the
rest of North Korea, and assimilate into civil society. I hope something big happens there in the future...

[AliBabaIncorporated]

I got a good laugh, when Kim Jong Il came proudly blabbering about NK scientist producing their own computer hardware, their own OS, and networks. Apparently, the little guy thinks he can beat Intel, Microsoft, Cisco and the other big boys
nah, he just wants a platform which is completely incompatible with the rest of the world, so that NK wouldn't be poisoned by evil imperialist influence, and the government can control all the content. Kinda like France and SECAM televisions.

[yoMAMA]

I thought France is part of EU....oh while, that's a completely different story all together :D

[AliBabaIncorporated]

I thought France is part of EU....oh while, that's a completely different story all together :D
Huh? Nothing to do with EU. SECAM = Systeme Electronique Couleur Avec Memoire. It's the name of one of three popular television standards. Aside from France, used mostly in Africa and Eastern Europe. The rest of the EU uses PAL. SECAM was designed to protect French domestic manufacturers from foreign televisions and shows by making it incompatible with everyone else. Hence also known as System Essentially Contrary to American Method.

The Commies also liked it cuz it meant their subjects couldn't receive uncensored programming from the free world. (Unsurprisingly, North Koreans use SECAM (http://www.thewiggles.com.au/faq/videofrmts.html), probably just because South Korea uses NTSC. Though I guess that means the NK people up near the northern border could tune into China's broadcasters, who use PAL at 50hz, and get them in black and white with buzzing sound ... if any of them had a TV and electricity).