Getting langauage back

[kimpossible]

Topic speaks for itself. If you know a good source of material, please list it here.

Anyhow, if you're looking for tapes and textbooks from a good Mandarin program aimed at foreign learners, i.e. Mandarin is not your first or best language, I found out that you can order the same course material used for the program at Taiwan Normal University. From what they told me the books are bpmf based with traditional characters, of course, and they'll sell it to anyone that wants to buy it. I did quite a bit of research both in the US and in Taiwan, this seems to be the best program especially if you aren't eligible for Loveboat.

There's a catch here. You have to have someone in Taiwan buy it for you and bring it over or ship it back to you. They won't take credit card or ship it. Shouldn't be a problem for too many folks here.

I've got a request too. Though I have quite a collection of college Japanese books, I think I need more with an emphasis on grammar basics and writing. My writing is about junior high school level. It's pretty bad. I'm also interested in learning to speak like a real, actual person, not a servant, so it would be nice to break my habit of using a lot of polite speech. My greatest weak spot is understanding guy speech, so that should tell you I'm really weak in informal. Any recommendations would be appreciated. Please keep in mind that I don't have the time or opportunity for Japanese speaking partners these days. I have to settle for book learning for a while. Again, I'd like to go back and really develop a bulletprook sense of grammar so I don't have to take 5 seconds to calculate verb forms in my head.

[bankuei]

Hey,

Does anyone speak Toisanese out there? Or know where I can go learn some? I hear there's a community center out in LA, but aside from that, anywhere else? I'll be headed down to Cali this fall, so I'll be searching around the Bay area, but if anyone knows anybody or anyplace I can hit up, that'd be tight.

Chris

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Jun 17 2003, 12:04 PM
I've got a request too. Though I have quite a collection of college Japanese books, I think I need more with an emphasis on grammar basics and writing. My writing is about junior high school level. It's pretty bad. I'm also interested in learning to speak like a real, actual person, not a servant, so it would be nice to break my habit of using a lot of polite speech. My greatest weak spot is understanding guy speech, so that should tell you I'm really weak in informal. Any recommendations would be appreciated. Please keep in mind that I don't have the time or opportunity for Japanese speaking partners these days. I have to settle for book learning for a while. Again, I'd like to go back and really develop a bulletprook sense of grammar so I don't have to take 5 seconds to calculate verb forms in my head.
Eleanor Harz Jordan's Japanese: the Spoken Language is probably the best Japanese course I've come across. You will understand Japanese grammar completely once you've done it (everyone complains about the weird romaji it uses, but the system works). The only problem is that it's designed around a 4-year timeframe, lots of class time, and it starts with more formal Japanese and works its way down. I suppose you could get by just using the videos and drills on the CD-ROM, but during class is when you'd do a lot of improvising, which is what really cements language ability IMO. JSL good for me, because I have the opposite problem from you; I can understand rough guy talk, but not a lot of formal speech.

[kimpossible]

Yuhei> are they the purple and red books that uses romaji exclusively?

edit: nm, I just re-read. I'm screwed then. I'm not one of those people who can read romanized Japanese very well.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by bankuei@Jun 17 2003, 12:35 PM
Hey,

Does anyone speak Toisanese out there? Or know where I can go learn some? I hear there's a community center out in LA, but aside from that, anywhere else? I'll be headed down to Cali this fall, so I'll be searching around the Bay area, but if anyone knows anybody or anyplace I can hit up, that'd be tight.

Chris
just hang out with kasie. she can speak Toisan.
i can understand it but not really speak it. my mother's side of the family is from Hoiping.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Jun 17 2003, 02:36 PM
Yuhei> are they the purple and red books that uses romaji exclusively?

edit: nm, I just re-read. I'm screwed then. I'm not one of those people who can read romanized Japanese very well.
I'd still encourage you to try it. For one thing, you don't use the book nearly as much as you listen to the skits and drills on the CD; for another, it does come with a book on the written language. The book is especially good if you need to work on proficiency with hiragana and katakana; kanji comes in later, but the vocabulary is so well established that you're able to absorb a number of kanji very quickly.

Unfortunately, there really are no good self-teaching methods for any language, and the only good way to pick up on slang is to have it explained to you, but I still think Jordan's method would be good.

[kasia]

just watch lots of drama series and sing mandarin songs on karoake. :) that's how i picked up my chinese.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Jun 18 2003, 03:20 AM
Eleanor Harz Jordan's Japanese: the Spoken Language is probably the best Japanese course I've come across. You will understand Japanese grammar completely once you've done it (everyone complains about the weird romaji it uses, but the system works). The only problem is that it's designed around a 4-year timeframe, lots of class time, and it starts with more formal Japanese and works its way down. I suppose you could get by just using the videos and drills on the CD-ROM, but during class is when you'd do a lot of improvising, which is what really cements language ability IMO. JSL good for me, because I have the opposite problem from you; I can understand rough guy talk, but not a lot of formal speech.
JSL was great. Even tho I hated having to do core coneversations ever class, that book really really helps a lot. I swore I hated it while I was taking classes, but to tell you the truth, they are very very helpful. The only problem is you will come out not knowing how to read.

Notice how the CD rom was made at my university!!!!

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jun 22 2003, 11:07 PM
JSL was great.  Even tho I hated having to do core coneversations ever class, that book really really helps a lot.  I swore I hated it while I was taking classes, but to tell you the truth, they are very very helpful.  The only problem is you will come out not knowing how to read.

Notice how the CD rom was made at my university!!!!
Also, according to my teacher, Mari Noda is one of the actors in the videos.

I made a conscious effort not to criticize anything about JSL when I first started taking it, even though I was impossibly bored for the first 2 weeks. Nearly all the people in my class who've had Japanese before hated the CC's, and they especially hated the romaji. Then I point out to them that if their previous method was so good, they wouldn't have placed into a level 1 class. I'm not a JSL evangelist or anything, and the program does have some faults, but growing up with two languages has given me a lot of insight into what I need to know to truly understand a language, and Jordan's method gives me a lot of that.

It's interesting that you say you couldn't read Japanese well, because what I've seen so far seems encouraging. Did you not use the accompanying written language workbook (big blue thing), or is it that the pace never picks up? At the point where we left off, a lot of kids were still at the sounding-out stage, and almost everyone had difficulty reading lines of hiragana because there's no spaces, but it seems like everyone's making good progress.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Jun 23 2003, 01:30 PM

It's interesting that you say you couldn't read Japanese well, because what I've seen so far seems encouraging. Did you not use the accompanying written language workbook (big blue thing), or is it that the pace never picks up? At the point where we left off, a lot of kids were still at the sounding-out stage, and almost everyone had difficulty reading lines of hiragana because there's no spaces, but it seems like everyone's making good progress.
Woah, how long were you in that class? Still sounding out hiragana after how long?


In ours, we would go thru half of each JSL book in one semester (yes, there are 3), and the emphasis was on speaking. Not much time for reading or writing. That we used a big old book called Reading Japanese, and every now and then we had kanji tests. But those were so few and far between that they were really just cram sessions the night before the quiz and then forget it afterwards.

The fourth year they spend on more difficult things like translation and linguistic history, so they assume that after 3 years you should have mastered JSL.

I think that if JSL were to use japanese writing after the first book it would be better, but even if not, it is very good.

My school is also like #6 in the country for Japanese, tho I don't know if that means anything. Supposedly Ohio State is number one. Anyway, I came out of there pretty much near the bottom of my class in terms of grades, tho I am probably one of the few who is actually in Japan now.

[Chris]

Chinese School or Immersion will work really well :)

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jun 23 2003, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Jun 23 2003, 01:30 PM

It's interesting that you say you couldn't read Japanese well, because what I've seen so far seems encouraging. Did you not use the accompanying written language workbook (big blue thing), or is it that the pace never picks up? At the point where we left off, a lot of kids were still at the sounding-out stage, and almost everyone had difficulty reading lines of hiragana because there's no spaces, but it seems like everyone's making good progress.
Woah, how long were you in that class? Still sounding out hiragana after how long?


In ours, we would go thru half of each JSL book in one semester (yes, there are 3), and the emphasis was on speaking. Not much time for reading or writing. That we used a big old book called Reading Japanese, and every now and then we had kanji tests. But those were so few and far between that they were really just cram sessions the night before the quiz and then forget it afterwards.

The fourth year they spend on more difficult things like translation and linguistic history, so they assume that after 3 years you should have mastered JSL.

I think that if JSL were to use japanese writing after the first book it would be better, but even if not, it is very good.

My school is also like #6 in the country for Japanese, tho I don't know if that means anything. Supposedly Ohio State is number one. Anyway, I came out of there pretty much near the bottom of my class in terms of grades, tho I am probably one of the few who is actually in Japan now.
We go through a book in a year, same as you.

Each week we have five hourlong main section classes a week for CC's and drills, all in Japanese; one hourlong subsection in English for grammar questions, and one hourlong subsection for writing. We use a book called Japanese: The Written Language, by Jordan / Noda, which teaches all the katakana and hiragana and about 50 kanji for the first year. We had worksheets and a quiz on writing in Japanese once a week, plus a writing test in romaji in the english class. We also spent the first 10 minutes of about half the main sections reading aloud from sentences on the projector. I think your school didn't follow the "Jordan Method" completely, as her writing workbook dovetails very nicely with the spoken book / CD ROMs.

It's actually quite surprising as to who in my class still has to sound out words, as some of the best spoken Japanese students have the hardest time reading and writing.

[BeTheReds]

We had JWL too, but only in the first year. There are so many problems with that book with typos and whatnot.

As for classes: MWF was 1 hour long speaking classes where we do drills and recite ccs.

TuTh were 1.5 hour classes where we talk about grammar. First this was done in english, but later in Japanese.

As for those students who can speak but not read, it just goes to show you that the emphasis is on speaking in Jordan/Noda's method. Personally I'd rather be able to speak less than I can right now instead of being able to read and write fluently and not be able to speak at all. Speaking in my opinion is loads more important!

CC1:
A: Wakarimasu ka?
B: Ee, wakarimasu.

Oh, what book are you on right now?

If you are on the second year, I reccomend that you watch the video for one of the CCs. It is hillarious.

It starts: "Ookikute kirei de tottemo kimoti no ii furo datta yo ne!"

Anyway, Carter san will do something that will make you laugh your ass off in this video.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jun 23 2003, 08:07 PM
We had JWL too, but only in the first year. There are so many problems with that book with typos and whatnot.

As for classes: MWF was 1 hour long speaking classes where we do drills and recite ccs.

TuTh were 1.5 hour classes where we talk about grammar. First this was done in english, but later in Japanese.

As for those students who can speak but not read, it just goes to show you that the emphasis is on speaking in Jordan/Noda's method. Personally I'd rather be able to speak less than I can right now instead of being able to read and write fluently and not be able to speak at all. Speaking in my opinion is loads more important!

CC1:
A: Wakarimasu ka?
B: Ee, wakarimasu.

Oh, what book are you on right now?

If you are on the second year, I reccomend that you watch the video for one of the CCs. It is hillarious.

It starts: "Ookikute kirei de tottemo kimoti no ii furo datta yo ne!"

Anyway, Carter san will do something that will make you laugh your ass off in this video.
We were supposed to finish the 1st book by the end of this past semester, but we still have chapter 12 left. We'll be doing the 2nd book (hopefully all of it) this coming school year. I didn't notice any glaring typos in JWL, so maybe it's been updated since you've used it; then again I barely have to look at it at this stage, so it may just be that I didn't read it close enough.

I can never keep track of who is who in the videos, since all the foreigners are played by Japanese people. My current favorite is the one where Carter-san is walking with his wife and they bump into his Japanese teacher. The teacher tells the wife that Carter-san is doing very well in Japanese, and she dismisses it by saying "Oh, no no no. He's alright for a student, but..." :lol:

[BeTheReds]

...but in real life he is a dumbass!

You better watch out because if you read that book too much, you will start speaking English like the English in that book.

Soo desu ne! = Yes, it is, isn't it!

Tomodati o matanai de kaerimasyoo = Let's go home having actualized a non waiting for our friends.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jun 25 2003, 02:30 AM
...but in real life he is a dumbass!

You better watch out because if you read that book too much, you will start speaking English like the English in that book.

Soo desu ne! = Yes, it is, isn't it!

Tomodati o matanai de kaerimasyoo = Let's go home having actualized a non waiting for our friends.
The other students have mentioned this problem. I haven't run into it yet; not sure if that's 'cause I'm already used to Japanese so I can compartmentalize, or because I'm not using the book as much as they are.

[Eros]

Topic speaks for itself. If you know a good source of material, please list it here.

Anyhow, if you're looking for tapes and textbooks from a good Mandarin program aimed at foreign learners, i.e. Mandarin is not your first or best language, I found out that you can order the same course material used for the program at Taiwan Normal University. From what they told me the books are bpmf based with traditional characters, of course, and they'll sell it to anyone that wants to buy it. I did quite a bit of research both in the US and in Taiwan, this seems to be the best program especially if you aren't eligible for Loveboat.

There's a catch here. You have to have someone in Taiwan buy it for you and bring it over or ship it back to you. They won't take credit card or ship it. Shouldn't be a problem for too many folks here.

What are the books/tapes called? I was thinking they might be availible from some random website through a search. It'd be cool to brush up on the (little) Mandarin I learned years ago since I have hardly had a chance to use it (and the mixing Spanish into Mandarin sentences is getting much worse).

[SunWuKong]

(and the mixing Spanish into Mandarin sentences is getting much worse).


"Spanglarin"? :D

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Mixing Spanish and Japanese I could understand, I've done it a few times ("quisiera un vaso de mizu kudasai" ... "haa?" ), but spanish and mandarin? man they don't even sound remotely the same ...

[Chris]

I speak a mix of cantonese, mandarin, japanese with a few korean thrown in. But all i do is get people to give me weird looks.

[tapestrybabe]

i'm learning basically thru other ppl...
i have text books that have been given to me...
i plan on buying a korean/english dictionary...
but i like learning thru other ppl the best...
i've gotten the korean alphabet down...
and i know how to read... slowly, that is...
but i wanna learn how to have actual conversations...
so its been told to me... that associating with other koreans...
that speak korean is the best way to pick things up...

anyways, i had visited this korean lady's house the other day...
she has 2 daughters... one in high school... and another one whose 6 years old...
the 6 year old... she was FAR SUPERIOR when it came to her fluency in english... than her mother and older sister... and she was really fluent in korean as well... and i was impressed... i struggle with korean... but for the 6 year old... korean/english... just seemed to naturally come so easy for her...

when it comes to learning a language...
the earlier you start... the better...

http://www.edufarm.com/
and yeah, i was shown this website the other day...
its a mere kids website... and i ended up playing with the 6 year old... the 6 year old who knew far more than me... it was fun...

[hooligan]

wow, i'm taking chinese classes this summer. i'll let you know how it goes :)

-ben