fobs and abcs

[kasia]

this is just my personal rant.

i make it a point not to attack fobs for their views, because i know that they were raised in a different cultural environment. in general, i believe, it is taboo for abcs to look down on fobs, make fun of their accents, criticize them for being apolitical, or condemn them for turning a blind eye to, or failing to recognize, racism. i don't do any of the above because i don't see any of these traits as wrong - just different - because, again, we were raised with different values and external influences.

what makes it permissible for fobs, then, to not give abcs the same courtesy? why do they feel at liberty to call us 'johk-sings' when we feel it's degrading to call them 'fobs'? what give them a right to overlook the fact that our views are different not because they are right and we are wrong, but because they were raised in Asia and we were raised here?

why is there this double standard?

[SunWuKong]

:D

i use the term fob as well as johk sing.

[rakovlam]

what makes it permissible for fobs, then, to not give abcs the same courtesy? why do they feel at liberty to call us 'johk-sings' when we feel it's degrading to call them 'fobs'?

Because abc's keep telling me not to become too white (whitewashed seemed to be a popular term) or I'd be a sell-out.

[sOKaLiBoY]

you do have a point there. i guess that is why i use the term fob all the time. if i don't get the respect, why should it to them?

[Chris]

label schlabel. I am just tired of it. IF I am a fob, then I am. If I am not, Im not.

[Chester]

Originally posted by kasia@May 2 2003, 02:46 PM
why is there this double standard?
There isn't.

It's lame to make fun of a "FOB" for his non-American attributes just like it's lame to make fun of a "banana" who isn't defined by the culture of his forbears, just like it's lame to make fun of a non-Asian who can't quite figure out how to use chopsticks.

Anyway, personally, I think ABCs making fun of FOBs is far more pervasive and malicious than the other way around.

Why is it that you think it's the other way around? Keep in mind that this site's forums isn't representative of real-world dynamics.

[rakovlam]

Why is it that you think it's the other way around? Keep in mind that this site's forums isn't representative of real-world dynamics.

Thank you. It's about time someone realizes this. Oh yeah, there's more in America than Southern Cal.

[ChinaLama]

i think partly b/c most ABCs' cultural environments have something in common w/ FOBs. most of our parents are FOB.

[sOKaLiBoY]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@May 2 2003, 04:54 PM
i think partly b/c most ABCs' cultural environments have something in common w/ FOBs. most of our parents are FOB.
hehe not mine. my parents can only speak english.

[AngryABCGirl]

I don't know why there's a double standard, but personally the animousity that goes either way around is pretty sick. But ABCs(I've now been infected with juvenile terminology) who make fun of Fobs are the worse because what they do makes no sense.

Honestly though, I can understand why fobs would make fun of abcs and look down on them more than abcs look down on fobs, because we don't act the way you'd think we would judging by the way we look, we look like cultural betrayers. It's the same attitude abcs have when we say people like Connie Chung and Michelle Markin are whitewashed sellouts.

Doesn't mean it pisses me off though. I hate it when I walk into a restaurant, and the waiters are impolite because they assume I can't speak Chinese and then suddenly rebound. Or a lot worse, relatives who talk crap about you or your immediate family and think you don't understand and pull a tantrum because they're talking shit about your family.

Sometimes I just wanna say to some of these people, "What's there to feel so good about? I got five inches and 50 pounds you, the rest of America won't look down on me when I talk, I'm more marketable than you because I really am bilingual, and at least I don't scurry away when white people come around," and then bash them around a little bit with the weight and height an over-dairyed product diet's gifts have given me.

It's definitely not the attitude all fobs have, but for the ones that do...

I can't help that I'm more American than they are, I grew up here. I went to American schools that play a big part on forming anyone's identity. I can't help if I'm more reactive about 'Asian-American issues' because I've learned that these issues affect me. I can't help that I'm loud and not afraid to raise my voice, it's what works in America. Is it so wrong to be something of a hybrid?

Once in awhile something happens where I just sit and think to myself, I can never be the amphrous "Chinese" enough, but I can never be the amphrous "American" enough either because I'm carrying too much cultural baggage from each side and they have to fight themselves out, and more often than not Chinese wins, but not with American putting up a good fight. It's not some dramatic identity crisis, just a tought process that simply comes with simply being who I am.

I'd go off on more tangents if I don't stop now, but why look down on Asian-Americans so much? How do you judge culture?

Well, you really can't, because anyone could argue in favor of a side of any culture's superiority and it'd go on forever. Hell, people have fought endless wars over those kinds of arguments and nothing good ever comes out of it. In fact, I could probably go on forever on arguments how much better it is to be ABC, and some would agree and some wouldn't.

[blue hoodie]

<----hollow bamboo

[kuanyin]

hmmmm. i just gets pissy when people use FOB...can we please switch to recent immigrants?

RI makes an easier acronym

and the whole RI - ABC (which should probably change to ABA - unless we're really talking about chinese) has to do with the struggle between assimilation and american culture (or white culture to be more blunt). that's the only reason i see. tell me if there is another one. please.

[kuanyin]

and blue hoodie. what's up with the hollow bamboo??

[Tao]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@May 2 2003, 08:08 PM
Once in awhile something happens where I just sit and think to myself, I can never be the amphrous "Chinese" enough, but I can never be the amphrous "American" enough either because I'm carrying too much cultural baggage from each side and they have to fight themselves out, and more often than not Chinese wins, but not with American putting up a good fight. It's not some dramatic identity crisis, just a tought process that simply comes with simply being who I am.
hell i used to be a fob, came here when i was 5, and I've went back many times during summers and such. And a part of me can just connect with the everyday people there, cause they share much of my views on life and all that good stuff that i find lacking amongst the AA community here. It's wierd in a way, cause hanging around fobs reminds me of talking to my relatives and I somehow gain a certain degree of closeness to them than most other people. Sure they might have habits that might be considered uncivilized in american culture, but the way I figure it, it's better to shout loudly in cantonese to your friends when you're on the subway, than to speak fluent english and "fit in" with the model minority, placating views of the general public. I prefer Fobs that don't give a fuck how the "superior white man" will think of their "rude" behaviors rather than ABC's who try to act so damned americanized that they are even ashamed to teach their own children the chinese language (talking about a friend of my dad).

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by Tao@May 2 2003, 04:54 PM
hell i used to be a fob, came here when i was 5, and I've went back many times during summers and such. And a part of me can just connect with the everyday people there, cause they share much of my views on life and all that good stuff that i find lacking amongst the AA community here. It's wierd in a way, cause hanging around fobs reminds me of talking to my relatives and I somehow gain a certain degree of closeness to them than most other people. Sure they might have habits that might be considered uncivilized in american culture, but the way I figure it, it's better to shout loudly in cantonese to your friends when you're on the subway, than to speak fluent english and "fit in" with the model minority, placating views of the general public. I prefer Fobs that don't give a fuck how the "superior white man" will think of their "rude" behaviors rather than ABC's who try to act so damned americanized that they are even ashamed to teach their own children the chinese language (talking about a friend of my dad).
Actually I know what you mean about connecting with people and fobs when visiting Asia. Most AAs I know are less Americanized than most because of leaving in a broad Asian-American community most of us have never dealt with the pushing away of our culture, the American just comes along cause we're in America too. That's why it's hard for me to connect to ABAs who are more Americanized and why my peers would consider them sell-outs.

I'd honestly rather hang out with a group of fobs or less Americanized ABAs than hang out with anyone else. I'm just more comfortable about everything I am.

It's also part of the reason why I have this huge paranoia about ever living out of a major city because I won't find people even other ABAs who understand me and my views on life. They won't mind I scream loudly in the supermarket or not be constantly preocupied with sex and hot boys and girls(Just something I noticed about American teens steretypically). I refuse to shop at American supermarkets unless everything is on sale, and I can't comprehend how anyone can buy seafood unless its swimming in a tank and smashed on the head. I can't comprehend why it's so hard for Americans to understand the concept of keeping face or the importance of family. But it's something I know fobs or the ABAs I'm use to understand.

That's why it rubs me in the wrong way when I hear other ABAs say something like, "that's shitty fob music." And it's like, it's not THEIR music, it's just music. Hell, it's more OUR music than Justin Timberlake or something like that.

Also something cool about being ABA, I can move in and out of both worlds without too much difficulty. I don't I shouldn't be judgemental, but it bothers me and there's me off so much when I see some ABAs that are so Americanized that don't want to learn the language or their ancestors of what to shun it.

*sigh* I'm acting like the patronizing kinds of fobs this thread is ranting about. :ph34r:

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by Chester@May 2 2003, 06:38 PM
There isn't.

It's lame to make fun of a "FOB" for his non-American attributes just like it's lame to make fun of a "banana" who isn't defined by the culture of his forbears, just like it's lame to make fun of a non-Asian who can't quite figure out how to use chopsticks.

Anyway, personally, I think ABCs making fun of FOBs is far more pervasive and malicious than the other way around.

Why is it that you think it's the other way around? Keep in mind that this site's forums isn't representative of real-world dynamics.
its not lame to say what fob's are thinking and doing is wrong when it's wrong or the other way around. they grew up differently so u give them some slack for certain things as they should for us. but when a person in either group does something u think goes beyond the slack u have given them, they deserve to be called out on it. in this manner, banana's should be called out when their actions negatively affect the rest of asian america.

but i haven't seen much of this go on either way except to say that they each grew up differently.

[YuheiCarreau]

Ha! You crazy Californians.

[SunWuKong]

what i don't like about american born asians or asian people in the states that are too americanised is that... they're too americanised. and no, i don't like a lot of american attitudes. then combine that with the fact that they're too entirely hung up on race and they're insecure about it, what you'd get is this pushy and insolent attitude about inconsequential and irrelevant issues.

[teaz0r]

i don't get what a fob is?
like what makes a person a fob?

do people that go to america only
for schooling, and upon graduation
return to their country fobs? or are
they just /classified/ as international
students?

or do you have to actually migrate to
america to be a fob?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by pipSy@May 3 2003, 01:14 AM
i don't get what a fob is?
like what makes a person a fob?

do people that go to america only
for schooling, and upon graduation
return to their country fobs? or are
they just /classified/ as international
students?

or do you have to actually migrate to
america to be a fob?
take a grown local. move him to the US.
he's a fob.
but you don't count because you're international schooled. :)

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 3 2003, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by pipSy@May 3 2003, 01:14 AM
i don't get what a fob is?
like what makes a person a fob?

do people that go to america only
for schooling, and upon graduation
return to their country fobs? or are
they just /classified/ as international
students?

or do you have to actually migrate to
america to be a fob?
take a grown local. move him to the US.
he's a fob.
but you don't count because you're international schooled. :)
ya, it's a bit vague that way. it entails a certain mindset that basically says to asian americans: "i don't think like you."

[mr. x]

my high school was like 80 percent asian. So of course we have a good mix of abcs like me and fobs. I never see actual tension, just a crack here and there about fobs. Other than everythings just asian really.

[ren28]

I don't even think about FOB or ABC when I hang out with people. Let them be ignorant. Life is too short for me to care about that.

[moschikat]

Originally posted by Chris@May 2 2003, 03:36 PM
label schlabel. I am just tired of it. IF I am a fob, then I am. If I am not, Im not.
:)

did i ever tell you how much i love you?

labels are for jars and cans.

[deez nuts]

i make fun of both, nowadays.

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@May 3 2003, 03:45 PM
i make fun of both, nowadays.
yeah they both suck. 1 1/2 is the way to go!

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@May 3 2003, 10:54 AM
yeah they both suck. 1 1/2 is the way to go!
yeah i think so, too.

i never noticed any taboo for abc's to make fun of fob's. if there is...mebbe it's cuz some have this idealogy of being " if you're asian. you're one of us. unity. aZn PrYde....blah..blah..blah" to then turn around and make fun of fob's would by contradictory to their idealogy. make them seem like hypocrites. if so, the abc's bought the taboo on themselves.

whereas fobs, don't really give a rat's ass about all that.

to sum it up:

some abc's bother me cuz of their idealogy on what the asian identity is. the constant soul searching, the pining over the most miniscule of detail (it's not fucking exploratory neurosurgery) and the overall sensitivity (tai ming gan).

some chinese fob's bother me cuz of the abruptness and courseness (don zuo hen tu lu) of their actions. i.e. nobody waits in line in some parts of china. so they assume it's ok to cut to the front of the line, here in the usa. it's fucking embarrassing for me as a chinese person and fucking annoying to me as a person in general. i know a few that lived here in the usa for many years and still do it to this day. also from my experience, chinese fobs are also opportunistic on varying levels.

edit: i don't know how to word some of the chinese expressions into english. sorry for the shitty pingyin.

[Faithless]

Originally posted by kasia@May 2 2003, 02:46 PM
what makes it permissible for fobs, then, to not give abcs the same courtesy? why is there this double standard?
I think it's funny that FOB's call whites Americans. Poor ABC's -- caught somewhere in the neverworld.

[shy]

Originally posted by sOKaLiBoY@May 2 2003, 03:29 PM
you do have a point there. i guess that is why i use the term fob all the time. if i don't get the respect, why should it to them?
because two wrongs don't make a right? because you don't want to stoop to that level?

the way i see it... i try to lead by example. i can't always be in control of other people's immaturity. at least i can be in control of my own.

i'm with chris... i'm sick of labels/stereotypes... they all are directly and/or indirectly related to discrimination.

[kasia]

Originally posted by shyeyes@May 3 2003, 08:16 AM
i'm with chris... i'm sick of labels/stereotypes... they all are directly and/or indirectly related to discrimination.
exactly. i think that's the bottom line. not all abc's are insecure about their ethnicity. and recognizing racism - not necessarily being overzealous about it - is not indicative of insecurity. and the fact that one doesn't see it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@May 3 2003, 12:01 PM
yeah i think so, too.

i never noticed any taboo for abc's to make fun of fob's. if there is...mebbe it's cuz some have this idealogy of being " if you're asian. you're one of us. unity. aZn PrYde....blah..blah..blah" to then turn around and make fun of fob's would by contradictory to their idealogy. make them seem like hypocrites. if so, the abc's bought the taboo on themselves.

whereas fobs, don't really give a rat's ass about all that.

to sum it up:

some abc's bother me cuz of their idealogy on what the asian identity is. the constant soul searching, the pining over the most miniscule of detail (it's not fucking exploratory neurosurgery) and the overall sensitivity (tai ming gan).

some chinese fob's bother me cuz of the abruptness and courseness (don zuo hen tu lu) of their actions. i.e. nobody waits in line in some parts of china. so they assume it's ok to cut to the front of the line, here in the usa. it's fucking embarrassing for me as a chinese person and fucking annoying to me as a person in general. i know a few that lived here in the usa for many years and still do it to this day. also from my experience, chinese fobs are also opportunistic on varying levels.

edit: i don't know how to word some of the chinese expressions into english. sorry for the shitty pingyin.
well said.

HK fobs generally seem to be ok to me though. most of the ones i know are in toronto. it's the mainland fobs that can be really rude sometimes. i see them sometimes picking their nose and spitting out huge-ass phlegm right on the street in broad daylight. i just want to kick them in the nuts and tell them to stop making us look bad. but the better educated fobs from mainland aren't like this at all. they're very polite.

and ABCs that put down asian people that don't hang out with other asian people, and then turn around to put down fobs, i want to slap those people upside the head and take their money.

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 3 2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@May 3 2003, 12:01 PM
yeah i think so, too.

i never noticed any taboo for abc's to make fun of fob's. if there is...mebbe it's cuz some have this idealogy of being " if you're asian. you're one of us. unity. aZn PrYde....blah..blah..blah" to then turn around and make fun of fob's would by contradictory to their idealogy. make them seem like hypocrites. if so, the abc's bought the taboo on themselves.

whereas fobs, don't really give a rat's ass about all that.

to sum it up:

some abc's bother me cuz of their idealogy on what the asian identity is. the constant soul searching, the pining over the most miniscule of detail (it's not fucking exploratory neurosurgery) and the overall sensitivity (tai ming gan).

some chinese fob's bother me cuz of the abruptness and courseness (don zuo hen tu lu) of their actions. i.e. nobody waits in line in some parts of china. so they assume it's ok to cut to the front of the line, here in the usa. it's fucking embarrassing for me as a chinese person and fucking annoying to me as a person in general. i know a few that lived here in the usa for many years and still do it to this day. also from my experience, chinese fobs are also opportunistic on varying levels.

edit: i don't know how to word some of the chinese expressions into english. sorry for the shitty pingyin.
well said.

HK fobs generally seem to be ok to me though. most of the ones i know are in toronto. it's the mainland fobs that can be really rude sometimes. i see them sometimes picking their nose and spitting out huge-ass phlegm right on the street in broad daylight. i just want to kick them in the nuts and tell them to stop making us look bad. but the better educated fobs from mainland aren't like this at all. they're very polite.

and ABCs that put down asian people that don't hang out with other asian people, and then turn around to put down fobs, i want to slap those people upside the head and take their money.
hk fobs i have encountered are ok, the other fobs from the other parts of the mainland/taiwan, is hit or miss. the worse, by far, are the ones that came from the countryside of taiwan or china aka "shang ba lao's"

then you have the militant taiwan fobs (both the indigenous ones and the refugees) that judge you as a person depending if you're "wai sen ren" or "ban sen ren." i had a patient actually request another doctor cuz he figured out i'm wai sen ren. nowadays this is the typical conversation with a chinese/taiwanese fob:

fob: you're mandarin is really good. were you born in taiwan? where are your parents from? taiwan or china?

<redlight comes on for me>

me: oh, i was born here and my parents were born here, as well.

hahahah end of convo. see, it pays to be abc sometimes.

and another thing i love about some abc's is if you don't want to pay attention to an issue, they'll call you twinkie or banana. ask them to speak a word of their native tongue, they're lost, clueless and can't get pass a typical greeting. it's insignificant, but i've always found it ironic.

1.5 genners unite and crush those clueless and confused abc's and those smelly and pesky fob's! kidding...kidding...

labels are labels..you're always gonna be categorized. i don't pay attention to it and just do my own thing. but, it's hard cuz dumbass abc's and fob's love to do that labelling shit.

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@May 3 2003, 11:09 AM
hk fobs i have encountered are ok, the other fobs from the other parts of the mainland/taiwan, is hit or miss. the worse, by far, are the ones that came from the countryside of taiwan or china aka "shang ba lao's"

then you have the militant taiwan fobs (both the indigenous ones and the refugees) that judge you as a person depending if you're "wai sen ren" or "ban sen ren." i had a patient actually request another doctor cuz he figured out i'm wai sen ren. nowadays this is the typical conversation with a chinese/taiwanese fob:

fob: you're mandarin is really good. were you born in taiwan? where are your parents from? taiwan or china?

<redlight comes on for me>

me: oh, i was born here and my parents were born here, as well.

hahahah end of convo. see, it pays to be abc sometimes.

and another thing i love about some abc's is if you don't want to pay attention to an issue, they'll call you twinkie or banana. ask them to speak a word of their native tongue, they're lost, clueless and can't get pass a typical greeting. it's insignificant, but i've always found it ironic.

1.5 genners unite and crush those clueless and confused abc's and those smelly and pesky fob's! kidding...kidding...

labels are labels..you're always gonna be categorized. i don't pay attention to it and just do my own thing. but, it's hard cuz dumbass abc's and fob's love to do that labelling shit.
Eh, I'm wai sen ren too. It's ironic how far that label that label had to go through to get to me, and I still have to deal with it even though I'm ABC(yw needs to die for making me say fob and abc so many times in the past days).

Luckly, most fobs can't figure it out though because they figure I can't speak Chinese by the way I look and act.

Honestly though, it's kind of depressing to be wai sen ren sometimes. I was having a conversation with a friend whose a fob who recently came to the US for boarding school when we were really bumed out saying we really had no home to go to ever because white people didn't want us here and set up quotas in colleges and thought we were foreigners, we were too Taiwanese for the mainland because our parents were born in Taiwan but our ancestors were from the mainland, but the Taiwanese won't accept us because we were still wai sen ren but + Americanization as well.

That's a negative way to look at it, being pushed into the ocean by three countries. But then we can just say at least we got some of everything and got be to spoiled TAPs. (Taiwanese-American Princesses)

And then there's all the Asian-American yada yada stuff too about being looked down on by fobs here. Up until yw I didn't know there were that many AAs running around who couldn't speak their language or know their history though but call people bananas though. It just doesn't make much sense. :o

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@May 3 2003, 04:03 PM

Eh, I'm wai sen ren too.&nbsp; It's ironic how far that label that label had to go through to get to me, and I still have to deal with it even though I'm ABC(yw needs to die for making me say fob and abc so many times in the past days).


it's generally the older generation like our parents and grandparents, that make a big deal out of it. i don't like discussing taiwan and china issues, since everyone has their opinion on it and it's a sensitive issue. i avoid it when it comes up in real life for two reasons 1)i don't feel like discussing it to death and 2)to avoid the old senile bastards (if they happen to be ban sen ren) from chastising and bad mouthing my parents and grandparents. say it to my parents not to me.

[Fireblade]

I agree with Chris... labels are clothes and jars. We're all who we are. Let it be.

[FACKU]

you, or your parents or your parents parents were FOB once... maybe you should ask them?

[Hiroshi2]

Originally posted by Chris@May 2 2003, 05:36 PM
label schlabel. I am just tired of it. IF I am a fob, then I am. If I am not, Im not.
I agree, I think a lot of times people just label other people too damn much- fob, abc, asian, black, white, latino, gay, straight, democratic, republican- it gets tiring after a while, don't you think? ;)

[YuheiCarreau]

I dunno, I think FOB is an attitude thing. I don't call every immigrant I know a FOB, just the ones who act like they're still in HK or Japan or wherever they came from. I grew up around FOB Japanese (not Japanese Americans, they would have been incredibly insulted to be called that), and although I didn't know the term at the time it's perfect for describing them. As long as your definition of FOB is more descriptive than "recent immigrant" I don't think it's so bad.

[Faithless]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@May 3 2003, 07:55 PM
I dunno, I think FOB is an attitude thing. I don't call every immigrant I know a FOB, just the ones who act like they're still in HK or Japan or wherever they came from. I grew up around FOB Japanese (not Japanese Americans, they would have been incredibly insulted to be called that), and although I didn't know the term at the time it's perfect for describing them. As long as your definition of FOB is more descriptive than "recent immigrant" I don't think it's so bad.
You mean like the nice folks who cook the stinky fish in the work kitchen microwave?

[girlmagnet]

Wish I can speak mandarin, fujianese or cantonese because these are major languages used outside east asia amongst chinese Maybe I got excluded on some occassions but I understand that is because they think I am going to be worse than those who came at age 7-10 then suddenly saying their first language is English

What intellect said speaking only English is actually better
All those chinese who can't speak any chinese and think they are actually should be a white with blond hair and married to a full blown white having cheese and cereal mixed with milk on the table every breakfast are feeble weakling yellow mellows

[purezero]

Gah! Soo much to read! Hehe. Really interesting points though. MORE!

I was born in America and I hang out with a group of other Asians born in America (as well as people of other ethnic backgrounds). We do incorporate other Asians who were not born into America into our group. The thing is, the more recent then come in, they are less inclined to hang out with our circle of friends.

I know some really nice people who weren't American born. Many are friends of mine. But others I know, I don't have any respect for when they treat other people poorly. ESPECIALLY in my math class. There is a group of non-American born Asians who sit in a group together in the middle of class. There's about six of them and they get loud. They talk about their music and movies and VCDs. They drone out the teacher who is trying to teach a lesson. I'm sure that they understand the material, so they are finished early and have nothing to do. But they could try and help the teacher out by helping other students how to do stuff, or just be more quiet. And I think it's rude of them to talk about the teacher behind his back because he did one question the wrong way. It sickens me because I sit there, understand what they're saying, and I really can't do anything about it besides telling them to be a little more quiet.

My brother doesn't like non-American born Asians. He calls them FOBs and talks crap about them. But I can understand where he's coming from. My brother and I are the only American born of the family. The rest of our family have totally different views from us. And they try to impose their views on us. About my weight (which really isn't that bad, but I feel like crap when they talk about it) and the way my brother dresses (he sags his pants like there is no tomorrow). We even had different views when it came to playing Uno. Apparently the way Americans play is too slow and boring, so their version is faster and more interesting. I agree with them after I saw how they played, but my brother was more reluctant in that they kept saying that our way was too boring and kept putting it down instead of explaining the game to us. He didn't appreciate that they all ganged up together just to prove him wrong.

I talked to my mom about it later on. Being a non-American born Asian herself, she understood where they were coming from. They think that Americans are slow, that the way they do things are not as direct as their ways. They also use that power-in-numbers thing to an extreme. They would grab anyone around them just to prove the other person wrong. Things like that.

So yeah. I think that there is a certain tension that exists. But I try to relieve that tension by being more open-minded about things. If that is the way they are, then there you go. There's no real point in trying to prove the other person wrong when both are too stubborn to change their ways. And the thing is, I think that Asians who are more influence by American culture should be the ones to just let up. Just let things slide as to avoid that tension. I know that I'm more comfortable with letting it go than say my other family members.

But maybe I went a little off topic there. Or more in one direction as to the family part than the society-as-a-whole part.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@May 3 2003, 05:03 PM
Honestly though, it's kind of depressing to be wai sen ren sometimes. I was having a conversation with a friend whose a fob who recently came to the US for boarding school when we were really bumed out saying we really had no home to go to ever because white people didn't want us here and set up quotas in colleges and thought we were foreigners, we were too Taiwanese for the mainland because our parents were born in Taiwan but our ancestors were from the mainland, but the Taiwanese won't accept us because we were still wai sen ren but + Americanization as well.
you should watch A Brighter Summer Day (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0101985), directed by Edward Yang. it has nothing to do with the US though. it's about the coming-of-age of taiwanese kids in 1961, who were born in the mainland and escaped the communist takeover with their parents.

[shy]

Originally posted by DoggieBreath@May 3 2003, 08:00 PM
You mean like the nice folks who cook the stinky fish in the work kitchen microwave?
regardless of where one is from, i truelly think nuking fish in the microwave is a crime.

fish is not meant to be nuked in the microwave! it's just so wrong! :gross:

[SunWuKong]

eh
i think american born asians are too sensitive about what fobs say and do. like with the whole "fat" thing. fobs tell each other that they're fat too, if they really are fat. that's just how they talk. in asia if you call someone fat, you're just being factual. in the US if you call someone fat, then it's an insult. it's not like they're out to tell all american born asians that they're fat.
it's like how you can insult a good friend in jest and say that he's a dumb-ass. except that fobs do that to everybody in a friendly social setting, unless serious politeness is specifically required. some of my friends in HK like to call me american boy (in english), or buhn yan buhn gwaai - half person half ghost, but they're doing it in jest, like if i call my good friend a dumb-ass and laugh. hell, i especially like it when girls call me that. it's endearing.
ain't it a bitch. they're in the US. they can do whatever they want. and that includes acting like they're still in asia.

[Chester]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@May 3 2003, 11:09 AM
labels are labels..you're always gonna be categorized. i don't pay attention to it...
Heh, yeah. Obviously not something you think or write much about.

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by ti12amisu@May 3 2003, 11:14 PM
I was born in America and I hang out with a group of other Asians born in America (as well as people of other ethnic backgrounds). We do incorporate other Asians who were not born into America into our group. The thing is, the more recent then come in, they are less inclined to hang out with our circle of friends.
exactly my situation. the shorter the time that the fobs have lived here, the less willing they are to hang out with me and my friends even tho half my friends are fobs. its just they've been in the US for over 10 years or so.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

screw them fob's :angry: :angry: :luv:

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@May 4 2003, 07:03 PM
screw them fob's :angry: :angry: :luv:
yes. i'm willing to sacrifice myself to be screwed by a couple of hot ABC chicks. together. any volunteers?

[airborneranger]

Let's get to the point
I know what you all want to say
that you and your family are the best
ethnics in the new world

[kasia]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 3 2003, 11:40 PM
eh
i think american born asians are too sensitive about what fobs say and do. like with the whole "fat" thing. fobs tell each other that they're fat too, if they really are fat. that's just how they talk. in asia if you call someone fat, you're just being factual. in the US if you call someone fat, then it's an insult. it's not like they're out to tell all american born asians that they're fat.
it's like how you can insult a good friend in jest and say that he's a dumb-ass. except that fobs do that to everybody in a friendly social setting, unless serious politeness is specifically required. some of my friends in HK like to call me american boy (in english), or buhn yan buhn gwaai - half person half ghost, but they're doing it in jest, like if i call my good friend a dumb-ass and laugh. hell, i especially like it when girls call me that. it's endearing.
ain't it a bitch. they're in the US. they can do whatever they want. and that includes acting like they're still in asia.
yes. these two guys from hong kong lived next door to me in the dorms. they called all of us abc girls "fat" everyday and followed us around the cafeteria. "are you sure you want to eat that; you're getting fat," they'd say. i kinda miss their company.

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 4 2003, 08:00 PM
yes. i'm willing to sacrifice myself to be screwed by a couple of hot ABC chicks. together. any volunteers?
I'm willing to sacrifice myself and get screwed by a couple of hot Taiwanese fob boys. together. with Michelle Markin.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@May 7 2003, 08:56 PM
I'm willing to sacrifice myself and get screwed by a couple of hot Taiwanese fob boys. together. with Michelle Markin.
together with ms. malkin? ooh... would you make do with a 1.5 genner HK boy?

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 8 2003, 02:21 AM
together with ms. malkin? ooh... would you make do with a 1.5 genner HK boy?
damn! too bad I'm not Taiwanese. I would love to get in some DS fr MM's L. :)

[DragonKnight]

Originally posted by kasia@May 7 2003, 11:50 AM
yes.&nbsp; these two guys from hong kong lived next door to me in the dorms.&nbsp; they called all of us abc girls "fat" everyday and followed us around the cafeteria.&nbsp; "are you sure you want to eat that; you're getting fat," they'd say.&nbsp; i kinda miss their company.
Same thing happened to one of my Vietnamese-American friends. She worked at a department store and was helping these Vietnamese ladies. Then the ladies commented in Vietnamese to each other on how my friend was fat (which she isn't). They didn't know my friend was Vietnamese apparently (they were speaking to her in English). So when they asked her the price of a product she told them the price in Vietnamese. Least to say they were quite embarassed. :rolleyes:

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 7 2003, 06:21 PM
together with ms. malkin? ooh... would you make do with a 1.5 genner HK boy?
No Cantos allowed. :lol:

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@May 8 2003, 01:23 AM
No Cantos allowed. :lol:
come on girl! gimme some TAP lovin'! i can speak mandarin!

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 8 2003, 05:25 AM
come on girl! gimme some TAP lovin'! i can speak mandarin!
wo ye hui jiang yi dian guo yu, he wo shi shanghai ren. wo bu shi xiang gang ren. ABG ke yi gei wo ta de ai ba?

yeah right...not w/ mainland pinyin. :D

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@May 8 2003, 02:19 AM
wo ye hui jiang yi dian guo yu, he wo shi shanghai ren. wo bu shi xiang gang ren. ABG ke yi gei wo ta de ai ba?

yeah right...not w/ mainland pinyin. :D
hahah you gotta get with the BPMF to get the TAP lovin'!

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 8 2003, 06:24 AM
Originally posted by ChinaLama@May 8 2003, 02:19 AM
wo ye hui jiang yi dian guo yu, he wo shi shanghai ren. wo bu shi xiang gang ren. ABG ke yi gei wo ta de ai ba?

yeah right...not w/ mainland pinyin. :D
hahah you gotta get with the BPMF to get the TAP lovin'!
taiwanese don't even settle for wades-giles anymore? how would i write that in WG? wo yeh hwei chiang yi tian kuo yu, he wo shih shanghai jen. wo bu shih hsiang kang jen. abg k'e yi kei wo t'a te ai ba?

my only knowledge of wades-giles is fr place names so maybe it's totally different for conversation.

if i only paid attention in chinese class instead of stare at the cute frosh girls, i could write this in fantixie instead of ghetto romanization. :P

[myself808]

I think the reality is that there will always be a division between FOBs and ABAs. And the division becomes more pronounced and obvious as the ABAs become 3rd 4th and 5th generation. Because we (as sansei, myself included) become more americanized (more banana-ized?) with each passing generation. A bit sad but true. It's a natural progression, I take from my ethnic culture those aspects that we choose to be important, and incorporate them into our identity. I don't forget or turn our backs on where I came from but I know where I am , I'm in America and I am an American of Asian ancestry. Does that make me whitewashed? a sell-out? well you know what? I don't give a shit if you think I’ve sold out, because I know that I can accomplish far more than you as an FOB ever will because I don’t put limits what I should or should not do, or what I will or will not do simply because of what my ethnic culture says so. Of course that’s not to say that anything goes, you would not, for example see me on Jerry Springer, because I have had the Asian concept of saving face ingrained into me. But I would have no problem walking into a room filled with white people, and schmoozing with them. My point being if you cling too tightly to your ethnicity, and not allow for some Americanization, then it’s your loss. I will always be gaijin to a Japanese citizen so why try be nihonjin.

Or is this a chinese thing and I'm just full of shit?

[MellowDrama]

Originally posted by myself808@May 9 2003, 08:39 PM
...I can accomplish far more than you as an FOB ever will because I don’t put limits what I should or should not do, or what I will or will not do simply because of what my ethnic culture says so.
This is the only thing I have issue with. A lot of "fobs" (I never use that term IRL) are real gunners and do their best to become a part of their adopted society (like my parents!) Furthremore, how do they "put limits on what [they] should or should not do... because of... culture." I mean, the "fobs" are the ones who willingly or unwillingly left their homelands and made a new livelihood for themselves in a foreign land.

[myself808]

Mellow:Personnaly I don't like the term but it seems to be what everyone here is using so I used it for simplicity. To clarify: In general FOBs tend to associate with other FOBs, (in general, not all or every) not many would say run for political office, or try to become a news broadcast journalist, or marry a black person, or say walk into a room full of white people. Yes they are industrious, hard working dedicated at what they do, but I stand by my original point that there is a division and it gets more pronounced as the generations get more americanized. my rant was to say to those who would call me whitewashed that in a couple three generations your progeny will be considered whitewashed also. and again, this not to say all or everyone but in general

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by myself808@May 10 2003, 12:57 AM
To clarify: In general FOBs tend to associate with other FOBs, (in general, not all or every) not many would say run for political office, or try to become a news broadcast journalist, or marry a black person, or say walk into a room full of white people.
are you trying to say that this is bad for some reason?

i never say that someone is white-washed as an insult. maybe if i attached something like "stupid" in front of it, then it becomes an insult. but the term by itself, i only use it as a matter-of-fact. if i wanted to be politically correct, i can use "americanised". same difference.

but hey, take it as an insult if you like. it's your prerogative. "asian americans" are sensitive about everything else anyway.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 9 2003, 11:32 PM
are you trying to say that this is bad for some reason?

i never say that someone is white-washed as an insult. maybe if i attached something like "stupid" in front of it, then it becomes an insult. but the term by itself, i only use it as a matter-of-fact. if i wanted to be politically correct, i can use "americanised". same difference.

but hey, take it as an insult if you like. it's your prerogative. "asian americans" are sensitive about everything else anyway.
C'mon, man. This is really getting immature. <_<

[myself808]

ya it's just the way it is, neither good, bad nor insulting, no big thing

[myself808]

ya notice that this topic always get a big, rambling, response thread :D

[girlmagnet]

Originally posted by myself808@May 10 2003, 04:57 AM
In general FOBs tend to associate with other FOBs, (in general, not all or every) not many would say run for political office, or try to become a news broadcast journalist, or marry a black person, or say walk into a room full of white people. Yes they are industrious, hard working dedicated at what they do, but I stand by my original point that there is a division and it gets more pronounced as the generations get more americanized. my rant was to say to those who would call me whitewashed that in a couple three generations your progeny will be considered whitewashed also. and again, this not to say all or everyone but in general
When you say in general and not many,
you should also use it when saying
in general and not many of those who were more westernized also run for political office, or try to become a news broadcast journalist, or marry a black person, or say walk into a room full of white people

You are only whitewashed if you want to make yourself deliberately more like white But if you just be yourself then you are not
Division exists even among white people themselves

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by myself808@May 9 2003, 08:57 PM
Mellow:Personnaly I don't like the term but it seems to be what everyone here is using so I used it for simplicity. To clarify: In general FOBs tend to associate with other FOBs, (in general, not all or every) not many would say run for political office, or try to become a news broadcast journalist, or marry a black person, or say walk into a room full of white people. Yes they are industrious, hard working dedicated at what they do, but I stand by my original point that there is a division and it gets more pronounced as the generations get more americanized. my rant was to say to those who would call me whitewashed that in a couple three generations your progeny will be considered whitewashed also. and again, this not to say all or everyone but in general
Most AAs in LA are like the fobs you mention. I haven't talked to a white person for days :o

I think when people use the word white-washed, they mean it more as being a sell-out rather than you're a bad person because you've acculturated, because avoiding all acculturation is impossible.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@May 13 2003, 03:30 AM
I think when people use the word white-washed, they mean it more as being a sell-out rather than you're a bad person because you've acculturated, because avoiding all acculturation is impossible.
i use it to mean that someone is americanised.

[Barbs]

labeling and judging are inherent in human nature. we segregate ourselves into groups and identify with those who are more "like" us for a sense of belongingness. why do we do this? because there is a sense of security in numbers.

what makes a person a fob? an abc? who's to say one group is "better" than the other? in asia, we'd be the "fobs".

my personal approach--take it all with a grain of salt and a sense of humor. understand that it is ignorance and insecurity which guides those who label. personally, i find it all very amusing. perhaps because i've been on both sides. in taiwan, they see me as an abc (tho in the truest sense of the word, i'm not, having come to the u.s. when i was 5). in the states, i've been labeled as a fob (apparently there are varying levels of fobbiness). but, i'm just comfortable in my own skin, i guess. i embrace my "abc" tendencies; i also embrace my "fobby" tendencies. i gots my abc friends and i gots my fob friends--i have the best of everything. what does it matter then, if people are ignorant and label and mock. the more attention you pay to them, the more credit you give them.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Barbs@May 13 2003, 10:53 AM
labeling and judging are inherent in human nature. we segregate ourselves into groups and identify with those who are more "like" us for a sense of belongingness. why do we do this? because there is a sense of security in numbers.

what makes a person a fob? an abc? who's to say one group is "better" than the other? in asia, we'd be the "fobs".

my personal approach--take it all with a grain of salt and a sense of humor. understand that it is ignorance and insecurity which guides those who label. personally, i find it all very amusing. perhaps because i've been on both sides. in taiwan, they see me as an abc (tho in the truest sense of the word, i'm not, having come to the u.s. when i was 5). in the states, i've been labeled as a fob (apparently there are varying levels of fobbiness). but, i'm just comfortable in my own skin, i guess. i embrace my "abc" tendencies; i also embrace my "fobby" tendencies. i gots my abc friends and i gots my fob friends--i have the best of everything. what does it matter then, if people are ignorant and label and mock. the more attention you pay to them, the more credit you give them.
aren't you supposed to be working?
like i'm supposed to be working?

[Barbs]

work..schwork.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Barbs@May 13 2003, 11:16 AM
work..schwork.
:lol:

i agree!
let's milk the government some more. it's been raping us all these years. it's payback time baby!

[shy]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 13 2003, 06:24 AM
i use it to mean that someone is americanised.
then why not just used 'americanised?' :huh:

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by shy@May 13 2003, 01:44 PM
then why not just used 'americanised?' :huh:
because i'm a condescending bastard. :)

[Chester]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 13 2003, 09:58 AM
because i'm a condescending bastard. :)
And apparently an Anglophilic one. ;)

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Chester@May 13 2003, 02:44 PM
And apparently an Anglophilic one. ;)
eh. i just think it looks better. doesn't mean i'm an anglophile.

[Chester]

I think it looks better with a "Z"...more phonetically correct.

But I won't labour too hard to dissuade you...

[shy]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 13 2003, 09:58 AM
because i'm a condescending bastard. :)
but... if you admit you're a condescending bastard when you are using it, then you're admitting that using 'white washed' isn't as good as using 'americanized' or simpley just "american born asian/chinese'.

you also stated that you felt that a lot of abc's are too sensitive.

isn't that a generalization that could offend those that aren't that sensitive to labels? and perhaps maybe you're being sensitive in return for making such stances about abc's being too sensitive? since you've mentioned it more then once. or tried to hint at it in previous threads.

also... you seem to put your foot down to use such words as white washed to prove your point. you know... to make your stand on it. with all due respect, because i don't mean to be disrespectfull, but want to get to the bottom of this, i wonder if it's because you would rather people adapt to your world... instead of you adapting to the rest.

all i'm saying is... if you know that white-washed is a deragatory term to others, don't you care that you are indeed offending some that might cross your path?

i know you explained to me that you don't mean anything offensive by that term... but with the knowledge that it IS an offensive term to begin with because of the history of it, isn't it just better not to use it? :unsure:

lol! hope you don't get royally pissed off w/ all these questions. but i can't help it. these are the questions that i formed in my thread while reading your posts. and at least i'm just being honest in asking you these questions. instead of concluding my own assumptions. which could be faulty.

[AngryABCGirl]

you seem to put your foot down to use such words as white washed to prove your point. you know... to make your stand on it. with all due respect, because i don't mean to be disrespectfull, but want to get to the bottom of this, i wonder if it's because you would rather people adapt to your world... instead of you adapting to the rest.

all i'm saying is... if you know that white-washed is a deragatory term to others, don't you care that you are indeed offending some that might cross your path?&nbsp;

Whenever the word white-washed is thrown around is meant to be intentionally offensive to, just like the words 'you're an idiot' are, but it depends on who you talk to.

If I want to say someone is Americanized, I just say they're Americanized.

[Chester]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@May 13 2003, 02:38 PM
If I want to say someone is Americanized, I just say they're Americanized.
And actually, the majority of times "Americanized" is used, it strikes me as stupid. That is, what's the point of using it to describe ABCs? The word presumes I started out as being Asian, culturally, and then was absorbed into the American Borg Collective or something. It's not as if I was automatically imbued with Chinese culture, popping out of the womb wielding chopsticks and a brush pen or something.

The fact is that when you're the child of immigrants who was born and raised here, it's generally just a constant synthesis of two influences.

So there's been no "ized" to the process.

Now...if you want to apply it to people who immigrated here...then the word might have a point.

[myself808]

American Borg Collective

That's funny :lol:

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by shy@May 13 2003, 06:01 PM
but... if you admit you're a condescending bastard when you are using it, then you're admitting that using 'white washed' isn't as good as using 'americanized' or simpley just "american born asian/chinese'.

you also stated that you felt that a lot of abc's are too sensitive.

isn't that a generalization that could offend those that aren't that sensitive to labels? and perhaps maybe you're being sensitive in return for making such stances about abc's being too sensitive? since you've mentioned it more then once. or tried to hint at it in previous threads.

also... you seem to put your foot down to use such words as white washed to prove your point. you know... to make your stand on it. with all due respect, because i don't mean to be disrespectfull, but want to get to the bottom of this, i wonder if it's because you would rather people adapt to your world... instead of you adapting to the rest.

all i'm saying is... if you know that white-washed is a deragatory term to others, don't you care that you are indeed offending some that might cross your path?

i know you explained to me that you don't mean anything offensive by that term... but with the knowledge that it IS an offensive term to begin with because of the history of it, isn't it just better not to use it? :unsure:

lol! hope you don't get royally pissed off w/ all these questions. but i can't help it. these are the questions that i formed in my thread while reading your posts. and at least i'm just being honest in asking you these questions. instead of concluding my own assumptions. which could be faulty.
my god woman, you are so sexy. :D

do it to me some more.


ok actually i don't recall ever using the term "white washed" unless i was meaning to offend. but to me, unless you're fobby, you're white washed anyway. so if i just wanted to say that someone is americanised, i say "americanised", but if i wanted to condescendingly say that someone is americanised, i say "white washed".

so ok, you're right. i mean to offend when i use the term. :)

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Chester@May 13 2003, 07:47 PM
The fact is that when you're the child of immigrants who was born and raised here, it's generally just a constant synthesis of two influences.
i don't really see it as a synthesis. it's more like a whole lot of american and a dab of asian here and there.

[shy]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 13 2003, 06:43 PM
my god woman, you are so sexy. :D

do it to me some more.
sheesh. :rolleyes:

ok actually i don't recall ever using the term "white washed" unless i was meaning to offend.&nbsp; but to me, unless you're fobby, you're white washed anyway.&nbsp; so if i just wanted to say that someone is americanised, i say "americanised", but if i wanted to condescendingly say that someone is americanised, i say "white washed".

so, to clarify for myself, you would never use it on anyone in particular unless you didn't like them and/or want to throw insult their way. for whatever reason. either personal or what you feel... justified.

so ok, you're right.&nbsp; i mean to offend when i use the term.&nbsp; :)

well, i don't agree with you. and i probably never will. BUT, i do respect your honesty. thanks for answering my questions. :)

[SunWuKong]

well, it's just that for many american/canadian born asians, i don't see that they're all too different from the average white person. there are exceptions of course (kasie), but strip away their usually meager asian language abilities, which they don't always use with their asian peers anway, they're not too different from a white person. most notably is the way they think and their attitudes. it's not to say that this is a bad thing. it's just my observation.

[shy]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 13 2003, 07:34 PM
well, it's just that for many american/canadian born asians, i don't see that they're all too different from the average white person.&nbsp; there are exceptions of course (kasie), but strip away their usually meager asian language abilities, which they don't always use with their asian peers anway, they're not too different from a white person.&nbsp; most notably is the way they think and their attitudes.&nbsp; it's not to say that this is a bad thing.&nbsp; it's just my observation.
okay... your observations are probably true pretty much all of the time. i'm not doubting that... but still... that doesn't really answer why the all the labelling. well, okay... aside from the truth that sometimes you wish to be 'a condescending bastard' (quoting from your previous post).

how do i explain this...

take me... i probably fall under your category of being white washed. i was born in canada. my parents came here before i was born, form china (shanghai). my first language was chinese because my grandmother came to live with us and help raise me. she couldn't speak english. so until i went to school, all i really knew was my abc's. which i probably got wrong most of the time.

now? i speak english most of the time, except when i'm with family. because i don't have any mandarin speaking friends, really. just a couple that i hardly see as they are not my close friends. and i'm marrying a non-asian, so what if i don't speak chinese most of the time? i love chinese food, but i don't eat it every day at every meal. chinese traditions? sure... a couple of important traditional holidays... plus going to nth number of chinese wedding banquets... etc.

but i watch american tv/movies and listen to english-speaking tunes... i watch chinese movies only once in awhile. and i don't mean just crouching tiger, hidden dragon...

i still see myself as chinese. yes... i also see myself as canadian... but why measure being 'chinese' due to the standards that you have listed?

isn't it something to do with my pride of my roots? of my culture? isn't it something that i also just feel? i don't go around boasting about 'my asianess'. nor do i go around boasting about being canadian. but i can not deny that i am... chinese. it's just not a physical thing. and it's not just a little ethnicity here... or there. it's quite a strong feeling. so when you measure people who are 'white washed' to not being chinese enough, it could be offensive to them... because in their heart, they feel a strong sense of pride being chinese. like me.

even though they know that their chinese is far more rusty then that of those who live in china and speak the language everyday... well... that's just geography. because send them over to china for a month and i guaruntee that their chinese will improve. mine did when i was there for a month. language is something that one just needs to practice everyday.

so really.... isn't it all just about adaptation of where a person lives? and if that's the case... if they have the potential to live up to your standard of measuring asianess, then all i can say is that all it takes is to move them to china. if a person can then adapt... well, that label, "white washed" to me, loses a lot of meaning.

so perhaps what bothers me is not just "the labels". it's also the standards of measurement. why put so much emphasis on it? does it really matter?

this is not really entirely questions to swk. but to the labelling of 'white washed' in general.

why the labels? at the end of the day, why categorize people in such a way? is that really important? and if we want to inspire people to learn more about their culture... without pulling them away from the canadian/american roots, are labels going to make them WANT to learn more? are we going to make them feel safe and being able to approach the culture?

anyway... don't get me wrong. i know this sounds like a rant. but really, it isn't. i'm asking a lot of questions here... because they've been in my head for a very, very, long time.

[SunWuKong]

well, if i don't use labels, everytime i refer to a group of people, i'd have to use overly long and descriptive definitions. it's shorter to say "americanised" or "white washed". everyone knows what that means, so i can use that, instead of saying "asians-who-are-born-in-north-america-and-who-are-not-very-acculturated-to-the-asian-culture-of-their-ethnicity".

[shy]

but doesn't canadian-born chinese pretty much sum that up w/out using questionably offensive labels? :unsure:

[sOKaLiBoY]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 13 2003, 09:10 PM
"asians-who-are-born-in-north-america-and-who-are-not-very-acculturated-to-the-asian-culture-of-their-ethnicity"
hey that would be me :P maybe because i'm Yonsei (4th generation).

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by shy@May 14 2003, 09:29 AM
but doesn't canadian-born chinese pretty much sum that up w/out using questionably offensive labels? :unsure:
what if i want to denote that this person is not very familiar with the asian culture of his/her ethnicity?

[Tao]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 4 2003, 03:40 AM
eh
i think american born asians are too sensitive about what fobs say and do. like with the whole "fat" thing. fobs tell each other that they're fat too, if they really are fat. that's just how they talk. in asia if you call someone fat, you're just being factual. in the US if you call someone fat, then it's an insult. it's not like they're out to tell all american born asians that they're fat.

Wow, this thread has expanded a lot since my little college finals hiatus.

I thought when chinese people talk about being fat they meant it in a positive way. Cause back in the old days being a bit chubby meant that your family cared about you and had enough money to feed you well.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Tao@May 14 2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 4 2003, 03:40 AM
eh
i think american born asians are too sensitive about what fobs say and do.&nbsp; like with the whole "fat" thing.&nbsp; fobs tell each other that they're fat too, if they really are fat.&nbsp; that's just how they talk.&nbsp; in asia if you call someone fat, you're just being factual.&nbsp; in the US if you call someone fat, then it's an insult.&nbsp; it's not like they're out to tell all american born asians that they're fat.

Wow, this thread has expanded a lot since my little college finals hiatus.

I thought when chinese people talk about being fat they meant it in a positive way. Cause back in the old days being a bit chubby meant that your family cared about you and had enough money to feed you well.
you notice how chinese female stars look like skeletons?

yeah.

[Tao]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 14 2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Tao@May 14 2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 4 2003, 03:40 AM
eh
i think american born asians are too sensitive about what fobs say and do. like with the whole "fat" thing. fobs tell each other that they're fat too, if they really are fat. that's just how they talk. in asia if you call someone fat, you're just being factual. in the US if you call someone fat, then it's an insult. it's not like they're out to tell all american born asians that they're fat.

Wow, this thread has expanded a lot since my little college finals hiatus.

I thought when chinese people talk about being fat they meant it in a positive way. Cause back in the old days being a bit chubby meant that your family cared about you and had enough money to feed you well.
you notice how chinese female stars look like skeletons?

yeah.
So it should comfort TAPs and ABCs that when FOBs say that they are FAT they should feel FAB about their BMI*.
Fo' shizzle

BMI=Body mass index

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Tao@May 14 2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 14 2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Tao@May 14 2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 4 2003, 03:40 AM
eh
i think american born asians are too sensitive about what fobs say and do.?like with the whole "fat" thing.?fobs tell each other that they're fat too, if they really are fat.?that's just how they talk.?in asia if you call someone fat, you're just being factual.?in the US if you call someone fat, then it's an insult.?it's not like they're out to tell all american born asians that they're fat.

Wow, this thread has expanded a lot since my little college finals hiatus.

I thought when chinese people talk about being fat they meant it in a positive way. Cause back in the old days being a bit chubby meant that your family cared about you and had enough money to feed you well.
you notice how chinese female stars look like skeletons?

yeah.
So it should comfort TAPs and ABCs that when FOBs say that they are FAT they should feel FAB about their BMI*.
Fo' shizzle

BMI=Body mass index
yah definitely. american born/raised women usually have hotter bodies.

[Chester]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 13 2003, 08:10 PM
it's shorter to say "americanised" or "white washed".&nbsp; everyone knows what that means, so i can use that, instead of saying "asians-who-are-born-in-north-america-and-who-are-not-very-acculturated-to-the-asian-culture-of-their-ethnicity".
And even that level of specificity is overly-generalized.

well, it's just that for many american/canadian born asians, i don't see that they're all too different from the average white person.

Maybe I should look through the archives (don't know if you've covered all this before...probably), but you write this sort of stuff consistently and never seem to get into details. How are A/CBAs not all that different from the average white person?

Because they speak English the same? Because they don't speak Asian languages as much? Because they do speak Asian languages a lot but with an American accent? Because their calligraphic handwriting sucks? Because they don't appreciate Asian food? Because they appreciate it but don't know how to order well? Because they appreciate it, order well, but don't cook it well? Because they don't value education? Because they value education but take courses like "Asian American Studies"? Because they don't respect their elders? Because they respect their elders but don't associate with them all that often? Because they respect them, associate with them frequently, but speak English to them? Because they respect them, associate with them frequently, and speak Chinese, but with a non-native accent?

Because they are not like you?

but strip away their usually meager asian language abilities, which they don't always use with their asian peers anway

Who's "they"? And what about the kids who were born and raised here, speak and write fluently or near-fluently and use a lot of Chinese with their friends? Are they FOBs, ABCs, whitewashed-ABCs, or "redeemed" ABCs?


The fact is that when you're the child of immigrants who was born and raised here, it's generally just a constant synthesis of two influences.

i don't really see it as a synthesis. it's more like a whole lot of american and a dab of asian here and there.

If that's something you want to believe, go ahead. But if you want to drop it into a public forum, then expect to get called on it. I think it's an over-generalization without substantiation [1].

Regardless of how little he's synthesized Asian culture into his personality, even the most "whitewashed" Asian American is still significantly different from "the average white person." He looks Asian (because, whether or not he digs Canto-pop, he is) and people treat him as Asian. There's no way for him to ignore his ethnicity because it's made a point for him time and time again. Sometimes it's made an issue by whites who like to point out how he's different from them. Sometimes it's made an issue by Asians...who like to point out how he's different from them.

Sometimes all of this makes them devalue their ancestry and make a concerted effort to be as "non-Asian" as possible. That's a shame, but that doesn't make them the same as white people. This is the fact of the matter even in the most extreme of cases -- Asians who were adopted as babies by white parents.

But the thought of actively trying to not "be Asian" or the thought of actively trying to be "more White" essentially never crosses the mind of white people living in America. Obviously. (Am I making sense here?)

But that's just one of the extremes and there's a whole gamut that runs in the other direction. Using a general term to lump them all together is to ignore all the varying levels of synthesis that are represented in the community. Some only have a "dab of Asian here and there" and some have a swatch of Asian here and there and some have vast tracts of Asian all over. Lumping all of these disparate types together is something I usually see from ignorant people. You're obviously not coming from a position of ignorance, but I still find the generalization disagreeable.

In my mind, if you want to get into the issue of "how Asian" someone is, you need to get into their personal specifics in order to do them justice as the individual they are. Just as you are not the same as recent immigrants who aren't quite facile enough with English to express themselves well, I -- for example -- am not the same as an X-generation Chinese American whose only sense of Chinese culture is gleaned through indirect sources.

And just as I wouldn't insult an immigrant Chinese for struggling with a new language, I wouldn't insult an American-born Chinese for struggling with a re-awakening cultural identity.

It takes all types, and I wouldn't want it any other way.

[I'm not trying to be confrontational here...if anything I've written comes across too pointedly, please just chalk it up to the fact that I hate using emoticons. ]

[1] Not to be confused with "taxation without representation."

[shy]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 14 2003, 09:34 AM
what if i want to denote that this person is not very familiar with the asian culture of his/her ethnicity?
then just say this person is canadian born but isn't as connected w/ his or her ethnicity?

shit... don't be such a lazy ass! :P

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by shy@May 14 2003, 02:57 PM
then just say this person is canadian born but isn't as connected w/ his or her ethnicity?

shit... don't be such a lazy ass! :P
so is this conversation about political correctness now?
if i were to do what you say, wouldn't that mean that i'm saying that all canadian born asians are not in touch with their ethnic cultures? i certainly don't think that.

[shy]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 14 2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by shy@May 14 2003, 02:57 PM
then just say this person is canadian born but isn't as connected w/ his or her ethnicity?

shit... don't be such a lazy ass! :P
so is this conversation about political correctness now?
if i were to do what you say, wouldn't that mean that i'm saying that all canadian born asians are not in touch with their ethnic cultures? i certainly don't think that.
no. because you could also say, 'he/she is canadian born and is also very involved w/ his/her chinese background."

see how that is different then, "this person is canadian born but isn't as connected w/ his or her ethnicity."

the first part of the sentence basically just describes a person's ethnicity plus where he/she is born. that remains constant. the latter part of the sentence is what defines to person to be different from the first.

as far as pc... yes. i do advocate try and be more pc. i'm not an extremist. but fighting for the use of abc/cbc over whitewashed is something pretty obvious.

and i'm not saying that you, yourself, are being prejudice by using that term... but to use it and expect people not to know that you don't mean any offense, other then those that you know, will cause negative reactions... or indirectly promote the use of the term in a deragatory way.

[shy]

Originally posted by Chester@May 14 2003, 10:56 AM
But that's just one of the extremes and there's a whole gamut that runs in the other direction. Using a general term to lump them all together is to ignore all the varying levels of synthesis that are represented in the community. Some only have a "dab of Asian here and there" and some have a swatch of Asian here and there and some have vast tracts of Asian all over. Lumping all of these disparate types together is something I usually see from ignorant people. You're obviously not coming from a position of ignorance, but I still find the generalization disagreeable.
yes. thank-you, chester, for summing up how i feel. and better then i did, i'll admit. :)

i just think that labels have a tendency to do more harm then good. because if we all look above race/ethnicity, i think we can see both commonalities and uniqueness of humans that are composed of so many combinations and variants.

yes, labels being used by certain people aren't always meant to be bad. yes, they are not always intended to create discrimination and prejudism. but in the long run, they do more of those things then not.

and i like what tazadar said above.

canadian/american... it's a new world where so much different ethnic groups and cultures exist. we can't even equate it to "white".

and further more... what is "white"? what constitutes as being "white" anyway?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Chester@May 14 2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 13 2003, 08:10 PM
it's shorter to say "americanised" or "white washed". everyone knows what that means, so i can use that, instead of saying "asians-who-are-born-in-north-america-and-who-are-not-very-acculturated-to-the-asian-culture-of-their-ethnicity".

And even that level of specificity is overly-generalized.

so should i never talk about asian people who are not in touch with their ethnic cultures? or are you saying that all asian people in north america are genetically in touch with their cultures?

Originally posted by Chester@May 14 2003, 02:56 PM
Maybe I should look through the archives (don't know if you've covered all this before...probably), but you write this sort of stuff consistently and never seem to get into details. How are A/CBAs not all that different from the average white person?

Because they speak English the same? Because they don't speak Asian languages as much? Because they do speak Asian languages a lot but with an American accent? Because their calligraphic handwriting sucks? Because they don't appreciate Asian food? Because they appreciate it but don't know how to order well? Because they appreciate it, order well, but don't cook it well? Because they don't value education? Because they value education but take courses like "Asian American Studies"? Because they don't respect their elders? Because they respect their elders but don't associate with them all that often? Because they respect them, associate with them frequently, but speak English to them? Because they respect them, associate with them frequently, and speak Chinese, but with a non-native accent?

Because they are not like you?

yes yes yes yes yes yes yes no yes yes yes yes yes

yes

Originally posted by Chester@May 14 2003, 02:56 PM
Who's "they"? And what about the kids who were born and raised here, speak and write fluently or near-fluently and use a lot of Chinese with their friends? Are they FOBs, ABCs, whitewashed-ABCs, or "redeemed" ABCs?

if they can speak and write fluently, then they're probably pretty culturally aware. like i specifically said before, there are always exceptions. but if it will satisfy you, we can take a survey here on how much people communicate with each other in their ethnic tongue. and keep in mind that people who visit YW are the more "ethnically conscious" type. how about all the asian people in north america who don't care about their ethnic culture at all?

but language is not the only thing. have you ever lived in asia as an adult for an extended amount of time? anybody who has can tell you that there's a big difference in attitude with asian people in asia. one example is the "fat" comment that i mentioned earlier.

Originally posted by Chester@May 14 2003, 02:56 PM
Regardless of how little he's synthesized Asian culture into his personality, even the most "whitewashed" Asian American is still significantly different from "the average white person." He looks Asian (because, whether or not he digs Canto-pop, he is) and people treat him as Asian. There's no way for him to ignore his ethnicity because it's made a point for him time and time again. Sometimes it's made an issue by whites who like to point out how he's different from them. Sometimes it's made an issue by Asians...who like to point out how he's different from them.

nope sorry. none of the white people that i or my asian friends hang out with like to treat us in such a way that "it's made a point for us time and time again" that we're asian. if anything, white people are over-sensitive about pointing out racial differences because they've had a history of being racist and society won't let them forget it. i don't know about you, but in my experience, it's the asian people that "makes it a point for them time and time again" that they're asian. which is not a bad thing. we should celebrate our differences.

but being genetically asian doesn't automatically mean that someone is culturally asian. you've actually pointed out why "americanised" asian people are so different. they're raised in the mindset of being a minority in north america, that's vastly different from being part of the majority in asia.

Originally posted by Chester@May 14 2003, 02:56 PM
Sometimes all of this makes them devalue their ancestry and make a concerted effort to be as "non-Asian" as possible. That's a shame, but that doesn't make them the same as white people. This is the fact of the matter even in the most extreme of cases -- Asians who were adopted as babies by white parents.

sure, they're still genetically different, of course. but it still depends on how culturally aware a person is. i mean, when i say that they're not much different from white people, that is not an insult. being raised a minority in north america is not the same as being raised in asia.

Originally posted by Chester@May 14 2003, 02:56 PM
But that's just one of the extremes and there's a whole gamut that runs in the other direction. Using a general term to lump them all together is to ignore all the varying levels of synthesis that are represented in the community. Some only have a "dab of Asian here and there" and some have a swatch of Asian here and there and some have vast tracts of Asian all over. Lumping all of these disparate types together is something I usually see from ignorant people. You're obviously not coming from a position of ignorance, but I still find the generalization disagreeable.

basically i don't agree with what you just said there. most of the time i see a clear difference between people who are fobby and people who are not fobby. there are exceptions of course. and hey it's just an opinion i have - unless you're fobby, you're americanised anyway. this is not a challenge or anything - but take it or leave it.

Originally posted by Chester@May 14 2003, 02:56 PM
In my mind, if you want to get into the issue of "how Asian" someone is, you need to get into their personal specifics in order to do them justice as the individual they are. Just as you are not the same as recent immigrants who aren't quite facile enough with English to express themselves well, I -- for example -- am not the same as an X-generation Chinese American whose only sense of Chinese culture is gleaned through indirect sources.

sorry, i'm too lazy to write a post as long as this one everytime i want to talk about something like that.

it's not like i treat people who i think are americanised any less than i treat people who are fobby. i'm absolutely more than willing to help anybody "rediscover their asianness". i think that's a great thing. but i'm not going to give a second thought about how "hurt" someone might be if i assume that someone doesn't know much about his or her culture, because i wouldn't make that assumption unless i had a good basis to make it.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by shy@May 14 2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 14 2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by shy@May 14 2003, 02:57 PM
then just say this person is canadian born but isn't as connected w/ his or her ethnicity?

shit... don't be such a lazy ass! :P
so is this conversation about political correctness now?
if i were to do what you say, wouldn't that mean that i'm saying that all canadian born asians are not in touch with their ethnic cultures? i certainly don't think that.
no. because you could also say, 'he/she is canadian born and is also very involved w/ his/her chinese background."

see how that is different then, "this person is canadian born but isn't as connected w/ his or her ethnicity."
err... yeah... it's like what i was saying in a previous post. it's just shorter to say "americanised".

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by shy@May 14 2003, 04:44 PM
yes. thank-you, chester, for summing up how i feel. and better then i did, i'll admit. :)

i just think that labels have a tendency to do more harm then good. because if we all look above race/ethnicity, i think we can see both commonalities and uniqueness of humans that are composed of so many combinations and variants.

yes, labels being used by certain people aren't always meant to be bad. yes, they are not always intended to create discrimination and prejudism. but in the long run, they do more of those things then not.

and i like what tazadar said above.

canadian/american... it's a new world where so much different ethnic groups and cultures exist. we can't even equate it to "white".

and further more... what is "white"? what constitutes as being "white" anyway?
i don't like the label "asian" (http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?act=ST&f=37&t=6574&st=43). it has the baggage of all the stereotypes that this country has bestowed upon it. can i be called "person of mongoloid genetic makeup"? oh wait... "mongoloid" is bad too... fuck... i'm gonna make like jackie chan - Who Am I? (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0127357)

[shy]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 14 2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by shy@May 14 2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@May 14 2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by shy@May 14 2003, 02:57 PM
then just say this person is canadian born but isn't as connected w/ his or her ethnicity?

shit... don't be such a lazy ass! :P
so is this conversation about political correctness now?
if i were to do what you say, wouldn't that mean that i'm saying that all canadian born asians are not in touch with their ethnic cultures? i certainly don't think that.
no. because you could also say, 'he/she is canadian born and is also very involved w/ his/her chinese background."

see how that is different then, "this person is canadian born but isn't as connected w/ his or her ethnicity."
err... yeah... it's like what i was saying in a previous post. it's just shorter to say "americanised".
um... i'm actually more against white-washed then i am w/ americanized. sorry if i wasn't clear.