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kitty
04-23-2003, 11:59 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/04/23/...gays/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/04/23/santorum.gays/index.html)

Santorum defends comments on homosexuality
White House maintains silence on issue
Wednesday, April 23, 2003 Posted: 4:29 PM EDT (2029 GMT)


WILLIAMSPORT, Pennsylvania (CNN) -- Sen. Rick Santorum on Wednesday complained that his remarks about homosexuality -- under fire by gay rights groups and some Democrats -- were "taken out of context," but at the same time he defended them as an accurate reflection of the law on the matter.

Santorum, R-Pennsylvania, was questioned about his comments at a town hall meeting by a 23-year-old man who identified himself as "a proud, gay Pennsylvanian" and said he was offended by the remarks -- part of an interview with The Associated Press -- in which Santorum appeared to compare homosexuality to incest, bigamy and adultery.

"You attacked me for who I am .... How could you compare my sexuality and what I do in the privacy of my home to bigamy or incest," the man asked Santorum.

Santorum, however, stood by his comments, even as he said they had been taken out of context. He said that if states were not allowed to regulate homosexual activity in private homes, "you leave open the door for a variety of other sexual activities to occur within the home and not be regulated."

Santorum, a lawyer, said that was not an expression of intolerance. "It is simply a reflection of the law," he said, saying Justice Byron White articulated that view in a 1986 Supreme Court ruling that dealt with homosexuality.

In the AP interview, Santorum criticized homosexuality as he discussed a pending Supreme Court case over a sodomy law in Texas.

"If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual (gay) sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything," Santorum said in the AP interview.

Meanwhile, in Washington the White House maintained a hands-off posture about the comments for a second day in a row.

"I haven't personally talked to the president about it, so I don't have anything direct for the president to share," White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer said in response to a question about Santorum's comments.

Fleischer said the president typically doesn't comment on matters pending before the Supreme Court or people's interpretation of cases, and he cast Santorum's remarks in that context.

Santorum, however, also talked about homosexuality in general during the AP interview, and he made it clear that he did not approve of "acts outside of traditional heterosexual relationships."

In the April 7 interview, Santorum describes homosexual acts as a threat to society and the family. "I have no problem with homosexuality," Santorum said, according to the AP. "I have a problem with homosexual acts." (Interview excerpts)

The White House's reluctance to offer its opinions about Santorum's remarks stands in sharp contrast to its response to comments made by Sen. Trent Lott, R-Mississippi, in December that many believed were racially insensitive and remarks in March from Rep. Jim Moran, D-Virginia, about Jews and the war in Iraq. In both cases, the White House criticized those comments.

And in both cases, the two men gave up their respective leadership positions under pressure. Lott resigned as Senate majority leader and Moran resigned as a Democratic regional whip.

Gay groups have blasted Santorum's comments, including the Log Cabin Republicans, an organization of gay Republicans.

Some Democrats have called on Santorum to step down from his Senate leadership position. Santorum serves as chairman of the Republican Senate Caucus, the number three position in the GOP leadership.

Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean, one of nine Democrats seeking his party's 2004 presidential nomination, Wednesday, called on Santorum to step aside from the leadership post.

"Gay-bashing is not a legitimate public policy discussion; it is immoral," Dean said in a statement. "Rick Santorum's failure to recognize that attacking people because of who they are is morally wrong makes him unfit for a leadership position in the United States Senate. Today, I call on Rick Santorum to resign from his post as Republican Conference chairman."

Santorum has stood by his comments, saying they should be viewed in the context of the Supreme Court case. In a Tuesday statement, he also stated his belief that "all are equal under the Constitution" and that his remarks in the interview were not meant to be a statement on "individual lifestyles."

Several conservative groups have come to Santorum's defense.

Concerned Women for America, a conservative interest group in Washington, released a statement criticizing the "gay thought police" and saying Santorum was "exactly right."

Genevieve Wood, vice president for communications at the Family Research Council, another conservative group, agreed.

"I think the Republican party would do well to follow Senator Santorum if they want to see pro-family voters show up on Election Day," she said.

-- Written by CNN.Com Producer Sean Loughlin in Washington.


AP: If you're saying that liberalism is taking power away from the families, how is conservatism giving more power to the families?

SANTORUM: Putting more money in their pocketbook is one. The more money you take away from families is the less power that family has. And that's a basic power. The average American family in the 1950s paid (unintelligible) percent in federal taxes. An average American family now pays about 25 percent.

The argument is, yes, we need to help other people. But one of the things we tried to do with welfare, and we're trying to do with other programs is, we're setting levels of expectation and responsibility, which the left never wanted to do. They don't want to judge. They say, Oh, you can't judge people. They should be able to do what they want to do. Well, not if you're taking my money and giving it to them. But it's this while idea of moral equivalency. (unintelligible) My feeling is, well, if it's my money, I have a right to judge.

AP: Speaking of liberalism, there was a story in The Washington Post about six months ago, they'd pulled something off the Web, some article that you wrote blaming, according to The Washington Post, blaming in part the Catholic Church scandal on liberalism. Can you explain that?

SANTORUM: You have the problem within the church. Again, it goes back to this moral relativism, which is very accepting of a variety of different lifestyles. And if you make the case that if you can do whatever you want to do, as long as it's in the privacy of your own home, this "right to privacy," then why be surprised that people are doing things that are deviant within their own home? If you say, there is no deviant as long as it's private, as long as it's consensual, then don't be surprised what you get. You're going to get a lot of things that you're sending signals that as long as you do it privately and consensually, we don't really care what you do. And that leads to a culture that is not one that is nurturing and necessarily healthy. I would make the argument in areas where you have that as an accepted lifestyle, don't be surprised that you get more of it.

AP: The right to privacy lifestyle?

SANTORUM: The right to privacy lifestyle.

AP: What's the alternative?

SANTORUM: In this case, what we're talking about, basically, is priests who were having sexual relations with post-pubescent men. We're not talking about priests with 3-year olds, or 5-year olds. We're talking about a basic homosexual relationship. Which, again, according to the world view sense is a perfectly fine relationship as long as it's consensual between people. If you view the world that way, and you say that's fine, you would assume that you would see more of it.

AP: Well, what would you do?

SANTORUM: What would I do with what?

AP: I mean, how would you remedy? What's the alternative?

SANTORUM: First off, I don't believe --

AP: I mean, should we outlaw homosexuality?

SANTORUM: I have no problem with homosexuality. I have a problem with homosexual acts. As I would with acts of other, what I would consider to be, acts outside of traditional heterosexual relationships. And that includes a variety of different acts, not just homosexual. I have nothing, absolutely nothing against anyone who's homosexual. If that's their orientation, then I accept that. And I have no problem with someone who has other orientations. The question is, do you act upon those orientations? So it's not the person, it's the person's actions. And you have to separate the person from their actions.

AP: OK, without being too gory or graphic, so if somebody is homosexual, you would argue that they should not have sex?

SANTORUM: We have laws in states, like the one at the Supreme Court right now, that has sodomy laws and they were there for a purpose. because, again, I would argue, they undermine the basic tenets of our society and the family. And if the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything. Does that undermine the fabric of our society? I would argue yes, it does. It all comes from, I would argue, this right to privacy that doesn't exist in my opinion in the United States Constitution, this right that was created, it was created in Griswold -- Griswold was the contraceptive case -- and abortion. And now we're just extending it out. And the further you extend it out, the more you -- this freedom actually intervenes and affects the family. You say, well, it's my individual freedom. Yes, but it destroys the basic unit of our society because it condones behavior that's antithetical to strong healthy families. Whether it's polygamy, whether it's adultery, where it's sodomy, all of those things, are antithetical to a healthy, stable, traditional family.

Every society in the history of man has upheld the institution of marriage as a bond between a man and a woman. Why? Because society is based on one thing: that society is based on the future of the society. And that's what? Children. Monogamous relationships. In every society, the definition of marriage has not ever to my knowledge included homosexuality. That's not to pick on homosexuality. It's not, you know, man on child, man on dog, or whatever the case may be. It is one thing. And when you destroy that you have a dramatic impact on the quality --

AP: I'm sorry, I didn't think I was going to talk about "man on dog" with a United States senator, it's sort of freaking me out.

SANTORUM: And that's sort of where we are in today's world, unfortunately. The idea is that the state doesn't have rights to limit individuals' wants and passions. I disagree with that. I think we absolutely have rights because there are consequences to letting people live out whatever wants or passions they desire. And we're seeing it in our society.

AP: Sorry, I just never expected to talk about that when I came over here to interview you. Would a President Santorum eliminate a right to privacy -- you don't agree with it?

SANTORUM: I've been very clear about that. The right to privacy is a right that was created in a law that set forth a (ban on) rights to limit individual passions. And I don't agree with that. So I would make the argument that with president, or senator or congressman or whoever Santorum, I would put it back to where it is, the democratic process. If New York doesn't want sodomy laws, if the people of New York want abortion, fine. I mean, I wouldn't agree with it, but that's their right. But I don't agree with the Supreme Court coming in.

AngryABCGirl
04-24-2003, 02:01 AM
What a bastard.

blue hoodie
04-24-2003, 02:25 AM
why are so many of our political leaders so stupid?

VV o n g B a
04-24-2003, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by blue hoodie@Apr 24 2003, 03:25 AM
why are so many of our political leaders so stupid?
cuz the ppl who elect them tend to agree w/ their views.

Elizabeth A.
04-24-2003, 07:40 AM
Santorum is a jerk.

TyroneK(prettypretty)
04-24-2003, 10:03 AM
Don't blame me. I vote Democrat.

sOKaLiBoY
04-24-2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by VBKao@Apr 24 2003, 09:03 AM
Don't blame me. I vote Democrat.
same here

cmar
04-24-2003, 10:50 AM
Santorum is heading down the same path that Trent Lott did. Rather than just apologize and admit he was wrong, he keeps defending his statements. He is going to end up like Lott....out of power when the republican leadership has to do something to quiet the storm. Bush will, of course, wait and delay like he did with Lott, too, until the pressure forces him to act.

I love it when republicans accidently expose their true beliefs. Sure is happening a lot lately. When is America going to catch on to these guys and their phony claims to being "inclusive" and "compassionate." Bigotry is alive and well in the GOP.

rakovlam
04-24-2003, 10:51 AM
"If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual (gay) sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything," Santorum said in the AP interview.

He's not equating anything (what's with liberals and trying to equate things?). He's arguing that if the government cannot regulate homosexual acts (perfectly acceptable values) at home (such as the sodomy laws), then how is it possible to regulate things like incest, polygamy (not acceptable values)?

While I may not agree with them, there are many people in America with religious beliefs that objects to homosexuality. Some who preach tolerance forget that they also have a right to object to certain values. If you can't accept Santorum and the beliefs of millions of other Americans, then what make you more tolerant than the average Klan member or Islamafascist?

Don't blame me. I vote Democrat.

Okay, what did we say about making generalizations?

cmar
04-24-2003, 11:15 AM
Santorum and "millions" of Americans can believe anything they want. OK with me. What's not OK is when they try to legislate their beliefs into my bedroom. It is truly amazing that in 2003 we are still fighting for the simple right of two consenting adults to do what they want in the privacy of their own bedroom.

cmar
04-24-2003, 11:19 AM
In the April 7 interview, Santorum describes homosexual acts as a threat to society and the family. "I have no problem with homosexuality," Santorum said, according to the AP. "I have a problem with homosexual acts."

I have no problem with republicans, I just have a problem with they speak.

VV o n g B a
04-24-2003, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by cmar@Apr 24 2003, 11:50 AM
Santorum is heading down the same path that Trent Lott did.  Rather than just apologize and admit he was wrong, he keeps defending his statements.  He is going to end up like Lott....out of power when the republican leadership has to do something to quiet the storm.  Bush will, of course, wait and delay like he did with Lott, too, until the pressure forces him to act. 

I love it when republicans accidently expose their true beliefs.  Sure is happening a  lot lately.  When is America going to catch on to these guys and their phony claims to being "inclusive" and "compassionate."  Bigotry is alive and well in the GOP.
lott only got removed from his position b/c it fit w/ karl rove's political machinations. if it's convenient and desirable to rove for santorum to be removed, then he will be removed. if not, then i doubt santorum's going anywhere. but i do hope that santorum keeps speaking and defending his position as i think it will end up hurting the republicans in the elections with moderates.

ism
04-24-2003, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by rakovlam@Apr 24 2003, 12:51 PM
(what's with liberals and trying to equate things?)

...

Okay, what did we say about making generalizations?
Right.

rakovlam
04-24-2003, 12:26 PM
Now, as for the actual comment, I disagree with Santorum. I'm not a practicing Christian and I can care less what homosexuals and other consenting adult do at home. As a matter of fact, I hope all state sodomy laws to be repealed. The government has no right to regulate what adults can do in their homes. If Santorum is so concerned about incest and polygamy, then he should have concentrated on incest and polygamy. I'm going to let Pennsylvania voters deicde on this one.

Eventually, the millions who object to homosexually will change thier stance as have millions before them. For now, I can put up with their beliefs and defend their right to profess them.

Bigotry is alive and well in the GOP.

Must be all that generalizing again.

Chris
04-24-2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by cmar@Apr 24 2003, 10:15 AM
Santorum and "millions" of Americans can believe anything they want. OK with me. What's not OK is when they try to legislate their beliefs into my bedroom. It is truly amazing that in 2003 we are still fighting for the simple right of two consenting adults to do what they want in the privacy of their own bedroom.
I agreed with that point here.

kitty
04-24-2003, 01:56 PM
Sodomy laws drive me crazy. What the hell is sodomy?? We learned in class it's this catch-all term for questionable sexual acts, but why does the gov't feel like it has the right to dictate what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes? Moreover, sodomy laws are usually only used to prosecute gays, but in some states, any form of anal or oral sex is outlawed. I find this so backwards.

Shuriken
04-24-2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by kittygirl@Apr 24 2003, 05:59 AM
"If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual (gay) sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything," Santorum said in the AP interview.
Okay, folks, everyone at YW probably knows that I'm about as liberal as they come, and I do not support Senator Rick Santorum philosophically. However, as has been discussed on other threads, he does have a point. If the litmus test is that whatever goes on behind closed doors between consenting adults is no one else's business, then if those consenting adults are engaged in polygamy, adultery, or incest, why should their behavior be illegal?

The word "adultery" implies that one spouse is sneaking around behind the back of the other spouse. But if that other spouse knows about the affair and has agreed to be in an "open" relationship (and maybe has extramarital relationships of his or her own that the other spouse knows about as well), is this kind of adultery wrong? Should this kind of a relationship be criminalized?

And if you support the concept of gay marriage — as I do — can you still be philosophically against polygamy without being inconsistant? If someone should be able to marry the consenting adult partner of his or her choice (the gay-marriage argument), and if that person wants to marry more than one such partner and all in the relationship consent to this arrangement, does the government have any more reason to tell these people that they can't get married to each other than it does to tell same-sex couples not to marry?

Of course, Santorum is absolutely wrong — or at least misleading — when he says: "Every society in the history of man has upheld the institution of marriage as a bond between a man and a woman....Monogamous relationships." Here, he implies that "every society in the history of man [sic]" is based on monogamous relationships. In fact, many societies throughout history, including pre-Communist China, were based on polygamous marriages. That the standard has now shifted to monogamous marriages probably says more about the idiosyncracies of family life in industrial and post-industrial societies than it does about "the history of man" as a species.

And then, there's incest, perhaps the ultimate taboo. But I have to ask: Is incest between consenting adults philosophically wrong? Say, if a brother and sister in their 20s, living on their own and holding down steady employment, mutually consent to having an incestuous relationship, should the government tell them that they can't? No, I do not want to have sex with my sister (I never have wanted to), and it's difficult for me to imagine such a relationship lasting very long. I'm not talking about parents forcing themselves upon their children (which would be non-consentual). Also, I think that the government has a compelling national interest in prohibiting incestuous marriages — as distinct from non-marital relationships — for the purpose of making sure that children aren't "blood simple." But if a non-procreative incestuous relationship is practiced between two consenting adults, is that wrong? And should the government criminalize such a relationship?

What I do have problems with, however, is Santorum's likening of the sexual abuse by Catholic priests to gay relationships in general: "In this case, what we're talking about, basically, is priests who were having sexual relations with post-pubescent men. We're not talking about priests with 3-year olds, or 5-year olds. We're talking about a basic homosexual relationship." No, Senator Santorum, that is not a "basic homosexual relationship," and your description of those abused as "post-pubescent men" is disingenuous. The sex abuse by Catholic priests constituted coercive relationships between an adult and, usually, a minor. And even if some of the young men weren't minors per se, the Catholic priests obviously held institutional power over the people that they molested (akin to a doctor molesting a patient). As such, this was not a context of mutual consent.

I hate it when people — especially politicians — are intellectually dishonest like that.

So, even though I don't like him, Senator Santorum raises some good points, but he doesn't express them very well due to his hostility towards "homosexual acts." Rather than demanding that he resign his position in the Senate, I think that this country should engage in this debate: At what point is it in the government's interest to criminalize mutually consentual relationships?

VV o n g B a
04-24-2003, 03:28 PM
to address shuriken's point (very well put btw), the gov't needs to regulate consentual relationships to the point where it is acceptable to society in such a way as it will not cause a breakdown of order. drugs are regulated in part b/c they cause a breakdown in order. ppl will steal and kill to get money for drugs due to addiction and so in some sense there is a good reason to regulate them (i support legalization of pot and ecstacy btw). alcohol doesn't need to be regulated as heavily as harder drugs simply b/c it has been tried and the breakdown in order increased instead of decreased.

so at what point will homosexuality, polygamy, incest, bigamy and the like cause a breakdown of order? i personally can't really see a reason to outlaw such behavior unless it's existence proved consistently deadly or harmful to those who practice it. gay behavior might have been classified as such in the past, but not in today's world for the most part. i would believe the same for those other practices even if i dislike their existence. incestual progeny here could be regulated b/c of harmful effects.

just to debate my own statement here, abortion seems to be a very iffy issue if this view is to be practiced consistently (and i am for abortion rights). abortion doctors cause so much controversy and are killed with enough regularity that maybe its practice should be limited to rape cases or something.

ChinaLama
04-24-2003, 04:31 PM
i'm glad at least someone else shares my view of incest. or an approximation of it. :)

AngryABCGirl
04-24-2003, 04:37 PM
Most homosexual relationships are equal relationships with two consenting adults, therefore they should have the right to do whatever they want in the privacy of their bedroom.

However, incest and bigamy much more often than are abusive relationships that are not consensual.

angel nympho
04-24-2003, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by Shuriken@Apr 24 2003, 08:35 PM
Okay, folks, everyone at YW probably knows that I'm about as liberal as they come, and I do not support Senator Rick Santorum philosophically. However, as has been discussed on other threads, he does have a point. If the litmus test is that whatever goes on behind closed doors between consenting adults is no one else's business, then if those consenting adults are engaged in polygamy, adultery, or incest, why should their behavior be illegal?

The word "adultery" implies that one spouse is sneaking around behind the back of the other spouse. But if that other spouse knows about the affair and has agreed to be in an "open" relationship (and maybe has extramarital relationships of his or her own that the other spouse knows about as well), is this kind of adultery wrong? Should this kind of a relationship be criminalized?

And if you support the concept of gay marriage — as I do — can you still be philosophically against polygamy without being inconsistant? If someone should be able to marry the consenting adult partner of his or her choice (the gay-marriage argument), and if that person wants to marry more than one such partner and all in the relationship consent to this arrangement, does the government have any more reason to tell these people that they can't get married to each other than it does to tell same-sex couples not to marry?

Of course, Santorum is absolutely wrong — or at least misleading — when he says: "Every society in the history of man has upheld the institution of marriage as a bond between a man and a woman....Monogamous relationships." Here, he implies that "every society in the history of man [sic]" is based on monogamous relationships. In fact, many societies throughout history, including pre-Communist China, were based on polygamous marriages. That the standard has now shifted to monogamous marriages probably says more about the idiosyncracies of family life in industrial and post-industrial societies than it does about "the history of man" as a species.

And then, there's incest, perhaps the ultimate taboo. But I have to ask: Is incest between consenting adults philosophically wrong? Say, if a brother and sister in their 20s, living on their own and holding down steady employment, mutually consent to having an incestuous relationship, should the government tell them that they can't? No, I do not want to have sex with my sister (I never have wanted to), and it's difficult for me to imagine such a relationship lasting very long. I'm not talking about parents forcing themselves upon their children (which would be non-consentual). Also, I think that the government has a compelling national interest in prohibiting incestuous marriages — as distinct from non-marital relationships — for the purpose of making sure that children aren't "blood simple." But if a non-procreative incestuous relationship is practiced between two consenting adults, is that wrong? And should the government criminalize such a relationship?

What I do have problems with, however, is Santorum's likening of the sexual abuse by Catholic priests to gay relationships in general: "In this case, what we're talking about, basically, is priests who were having sexual relations with post-pubescent men. We're not talking about priests with 3-year olds, or 5-year olds. We're talking about a basic homosexual relationship." No, Senator Santorum, that is not a "basic homosexual relationship," and your description of those abused as "post-pubescent men" is disingenuous. The sex abuse by Catholic priests constituted coercive relationships between an adult and, usually, a minor. And even if some of the young men weren't minors per se, the Catholic priests obviously held institutional power over the people that they molested (akin to a doctor molesting a patient). As such, this was not a context of mutual consent.

I hate it when people — especially politicians — are intellectually dishonest like that.

So, even though I don't like him, Senator Santorum raises some good points, but he doesn't express them very well due to his hostility towards "homosexual acts." Rather than demanding that he resign his position in the Senate, I think that this country should engage in this debate: At what point is it in the government's interest to criminalize mutually consentual relationships?
Good points.

But there's a big difference between "illegal" and "immoral," and having one does not necessarily dictate the other's presence. Something, though immoral, shouldn't be forced upon somebody (such as incest, assuming the two are consenting, or polygamy, assuming again that everybody is consenting) by making it illegal. Immediately making something illegal essentially takes the morality away from the action... not doing it becomes a decision based on obedience instead of one based on morality. What purpose is it for the government to outlaw behavior that they do not approve of that goes on in my bedroom between consenting adults?


Wait, I don't think I'm making sense... *Scratches head* I'll edit later.

myself808
04-24-2003, 06:50 PM
actually he was quoted out of context, but only slightly, santorum appears to be making a slippery slope argument (that goes way overboard) as to the decline of "family values". which is incorrect in this case. incest, adultery, yes they can destroy/destablize a family unit but, i fail to see how two male adults (or two female adults for that matter) having sex in a monogomous relationship can destroy/destabilize someone else's family unit or even their own family unit. i have no problem with someone believing or saying that what i do is immoral, perverted, a sin, or whatever because the bible said so. but when you beleive or say that i should be thrown in jail because the bible said so, i have a problem with that. seperation of church and state

also, in the literal sense, a woman giving a man a BJ or a man munching some carpet is also sodomy. definition of words change, 50 years ago the word "party" was only a noun and not a verb the definition a marriage can also change.

his only valid argument is that this issue should be a states rights case, not a federal one.

etcj
04-24-2003, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by Shuriken@Apr 24 2003, 03:35 PM
At what point is it in the government's interest to criminalize mutually consentual relationships?
Great analysis, but I think your last line is the best way to leave the conversation. I was watching Hannity and Colmes on FoxNews and Jerry Nadler (D-NY) asked that exact question. The specific issue is whether or not the government should view "homosexual" acts as being criminal acts. Jerry Nadler said that he has no problem with people not agreeing with gay sex or that they find it abhorrent. However, he feels that it is not the role of the government (nor politicians) to declare such acts to be criminal.

VV o n g B a
04-24-2003, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by ChinaLama@Apr 24 2003, 05:31 PM
i'm glad at least someone else shares my view of incest. or an approximation of it. :)
well, sometimes i find my own conclusions disgusting. but if i want to argue from a consistent framework, then i must accept it.

cmar
04-25-2003, 10:10 AM
A couple of republicans finally speak out:

"Discrimination and bigotry have no place in our society, and I believe Sen. Santorum's unfortunate remarks undermine Republican principles of inclusion and opportunity." --Sen. Olympia Snowe, R-Maine.

"I thought his choice of comparisons was unfortunate and the premise that the right of privacy does not exist -- just plain wrong. Sen. Santorum's views are not held by this Republican and many others in our party." -- Sen. Lincoln Chafee, R-R.I.

OK. So where is the Bush administration on this issue? Being pussies, as usual, hoping it will go away so they don't have to comment.

Another take on the issue from presidential candidate Howard Dean: "Gay-bashing is not a legitimate public policy discussion; it is immoral," Dean said in a statement on Wednesday. "Rick Santorum's failure to recognize that attacking people because of who they are is morally wrong makes him unfit for a leadership position in the United States Senate."

Dean is very close to earning my vote next year...

kimpossible
04-25-2003, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by ChinaLama@Apr 24 2003, 02:31 PM
i'm glad at least someone else shares my view of incest. or an approximation of it. :)
Not true. You and I argued the fiercest about it so this very much sounds in regard to me. If anything I agreed with you that two (or more) consenting adults can do with each other anything they'd like to, whether incestuous or polyam or both I could care less. My issues were consent, majority (as in of age) and free will. Apologies in advance if I'm off the mark with what you were indirectly referring to, but I don't like to be misrepresented.

kimpossible
04-25-2003, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by Shuriken@Apr 24 2003, 12:35 PM
Okay, folks, everyone at YW probably knows that I'm about as liberal as they come, and I do not support Senator Rick Santorum philosophically. However, as has been discussed on other threads, he does have a point.If the litmus test is that whatever goes on behind closed doors between consenting adults is no one else's business, then if those consenting adults are engaged in polygamy, adultery, or incest, why should their behavior be illegal?
Please show me, as in quote, where someone on this board argued that legal consensual sex between adults should be confined to homosexual and heterosexual acts, or that other sexual acts between two or more consensual adults should be illegal.

TyroneK(prettypretty)
04-25-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by rakovlam@Apr 24 2003, 11:51 AM
Okay, what did we say about making generalizations?
That they're always a good thing to make?

Shuriken
04-25-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Apr 25 2003, 04:40 PM
Please show me, as in quote, where someone on this board argued that legal consensual sex between adults should be confined to homosexual and heterosexual acts, or that other sexual acts between two or more consensual adults should be illegal.
I'm not quite sure what your post is saying, H2. My point was that some YW peeps were arguing, or at least philosophizing, that polygamy sould be de-criminalized (http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2260). That's not necessarily to say that we support polygamy or advocate it. But if we are to be philosophically consistent (e.g., if we support gay marriage), it appears that we must accept polygamy when it is the lifestyle choice among consenting adults in an equality-based (i.e., non-coercive) relationship. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "confined to homosexual and heterosexual acts." What other kinds of sexual acts are there? If something is "confined" to something that is all-inclusive, what kind of "confinement" are we talking about?

VV o n g B a
04-25-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Shuriken@Apr 25 2003, 02:08 PM
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "confined to homosexual and heterosexual acts." What other kinds of sexual acts are there? If something is "confined" to something that is all-inclusive, what kind of "confinement" are we talking about?
no beastiality or necrophilia etc...

kimpossible
04-25-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by Shuriken@Apr 25 2003, 11:08 AM
I'm not quite sure what your post is saying, H2. My point was that some YW peeps were arguing, or at least philosophizing, that polygamy sould be de-criminalized (http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2260). That's not necessarily to say that we support polygamy or advocate it. But if we are to be philosophically consistent (e.g., if we support gay marriage), it appears that we must accept polygamy when it is the lifestyle choice among consenting adults in an equality-based (i.e., non-coercive) relationship. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.


My bad. We had an another topic about homosexuality as 'deviant' in another thread. The claim was similar; that liberal must equal no boundaries.

As to what I quoted in your post - agree with you.

Raider Bob
05-01-2003, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by kittygirl@Apr 23 2003, 10:59 PM
SANTORUM: The idea is that the state doesn't have rights to limit individuals' wants and passions. I disagree with that.
We shouldn't miss the point that Santorum is arguing that the state should have the power to regulate our "wants and passions," leaving us not only without privacy in our bedrooms, but also without privacy in our minds.

Just how would the government limit an individual's wants and passions?

:confused:

Emperor_Mike
05-01-2003, 10:05 PM
Stupid, ill-advised comment to be sure, but let's not crucify him for it. Everyone makes mistakes and sometimes things get blown way out of proportion. Political correctness is one thing, but we mustn't overreact at the slightest hint of alleged discrimination and the like.

Faithless
05-03-2003, 10:09 PM
Regarding:

If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual (gay) sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything," Santorum said in the AP interview.

Come-on! That's one of the worst if-then-and-then constructs in the history of congressional over-bloatery. :gross:

Shuriken
05-09-2003, 12:24 PM
SAVAGE LOVE

by Dan Savage


...Before I get to your problem, SIS, a shout out to Senator Rick Santorum (R-Vatican City). Two weeks and 4,000 news cycles ago, Santorum told the Associated Press that he didn't believe Americans had a right to privacy. For the sake of the eternally imperiled American family, Santorum urged the Supreme Court to uphold Texas' same-sex-only sodomy law. "If the Supreme Court says that you have a right to consensual sex within your home," said Santorum, "then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything."

I'm running your letter, SIS, to illustrate a point for Rick, a regular reader of my column: SIS and his sister weren't exactly hanging back waiting for the Supreme Court to okay same-sex sodomy before they got down to some opposite-sex incest. Striking down an insulting, discriminatory, unconstitutional law will not, as Santorum fears, open the doors to incest, adultery, bigamy, and bestiality. Straight people blew those doors off their hinges long, long ago. And as The New Republic pointed out, adultery is already legal in some places--like Texas. Bestiality is also legal in Texas. So is straight buttfucking. It's only gay sex that Texas prohibits. Which hardly seems fair.

Full Article (http://www.thestranger.com/current/savage.html)

Shuriken
05-09-2003, 12:54 PM
WHY YOU SHOULD CARE ABOUT SODOMY

by Norah Vincent


If you're anything like the rest of the let-live heterosexual population in the nation, by this time you're probably sick of hearing about gay sex. You figure it's not your gig. You figure the so-called Texas sodomy case (Lawrence vs. Texas) now being deliberated by the Supreme Court and, of late, stirring up a rumpus between gay activists and the GOP, has nothing to do with "normal" folk. Whether gays get the right to do their deed in their own homes is a matter of relative indifference to you. But it shouldn't be, because the Texas case is only superficially about sodomy. It's really about the right to privacy and the moral standard by which that right should be applied.

And that is something you and every other Jack and Jill should care about because there are at least one or two things you do in your bedroom or, perhaps at the Super 8 Motel, to which Sen. Rick "Sanitarium" Santorum (R-Pa.) and his would-be dormitory patrol would take mighty exception if they caught you at it.

So, we come to the thorny questions of privacy now bedeviling the Supreme Court and the nation: How should we determine which private sex acts the law should protect and which ones it shouldn't? Should we follow the Judeo-Christian standard found in the Bible and criminalize anything but procreative intramarital intercourse?

Or should we slacken the cuffs and let married people behave with impunity but nab gay folk for doing the same thing — which is what the disputed Texas law currently does?...

The legal standard for sexual privacy should be this: No private sexual act should be illegal so long as all parties to it are consenting adults and no one else is harmed in the process.

By this libertarian standard, so long as they do not involve children, such practices as incest, polygamy, sadomasochism, oral sex, sodomy, orgies and even prostitution should be legal because they harm no one but their consenting adult practitioners and are, therefore, nobody's business....

So...incest, polygamy, and prostitution should be decriminalized?

Full Article (http://www.creators.com/opinion_show.cfm?columnsName=nvi)

Shuriken
05-16-2003, 12:38 PM
Letter to sex columnist Dan Savage:

I'm a 23-year-old gay male who's been following the Rick Santorum scandal, and I have a proposal.  Washington and the press seem content to let Santorum's comments fade into political oblivion, so I say the gay community should welcome this "inclusive" man with open arms. That's right; if Rick Santorum wants to invite himself into the bedrooms of gays and lesbians (and their dogs), I say we "include" him in our sex lives — by naming a gay sex act after him.

Here's where you come in, Dan.  Ask your readers to write in and vote on which gay sex act is worthy of the Rick Santorum moniker. It could be all forms of gay sex ("I pulled a Rick Santorum with my straight roommate in college"), or orgasm in a gay context ("We fooled around, and then I Rick Santorumed all over his face"), or maybe something weirder ("We've bought some broom handles, and we'll be Rick Santoruming all night"). You pick the best suggestions, and we all get to vote! And then, voilà! This episode will never be forgotten!

Sex and Rick Santorum

Full Article (http://www.thestranger.com/current/savage.html)

myself808
06-19-2003, 05:58 PM
:gross: :gross: :gross: :gross: :gross: :gross:

link to post (http://www.theonionavclub.com/savage.php?savage_id=24)

Hey, everybody: We have a winner. Savage Love readers, by a wide margin, want U.S. Sen. Rick Santorum's name to stand for... that frothy mixture of lube and fecal matter that is sometimes the byproduct of anal sex! It was a landslide for that frothy mixture; the runner-up, farting in the face of someone who's rimming you, came in a distant second. So, congratulations to WUTSAP, who nominated that frothy mixture, and a big thank-you to the thousands who voted.

But now that the votes are all counted and a winner has been declared and the cheering has stopped, I see a problem. While everyone who has anal sex has to confront a little santorum now and again, no one likes to think about santorum, much less discuss it. A polite buttfucker says nothing about santorum to the embarrassed buttfuckee, and vice-versa. They just get up and clean up. Since people don't discuss santorum even with people they've covered with santorum, getting the word into general use is going to be tricky. I'm willing to do my part, however: Please send me your santorum-related questions and/or santorum-related memories, and I'll do a column or two on santorum. This will not only help to get the word out and into general use, but also help break the silence about santorum. :gross:

Chris
06-19-2003, 07:38 PM
hahhahah I remember reading that it hilarious. but :gross: No Santorum for me. ewwwww