college grades

[loserbutt]

looks like I'm gonna get hit big time in the college grades department this year. average gpa ~3.0 give or take .2 with a D/C in English and.... not pretty

anyways, what can I do with this shitty GPA? will grad schools or law schools still take me? or should I just say fuck it and cruise through the rest of college, get my degree, and figure out what to do?

[Craig]

While grades aren't everything, it certainly makes things easier in the future if you have better grades. You can always go to grad school or law school, but it depends on what you consider an acceptable university. A lot of times there are many other determining factors besides grades though. Also, last by not least, doing well now builds and reinforces a good work ethic that should help you in the future.

[iris]

Law schools will definitely be looking at your GPA. Having a higher than normal LSAT score will do some to counteract a low GPA, but once you move under the 3.0 criteria, there is no hope left. Sorry.

Your best bet then is to work for some years in order to prove your worth outside of class in hopes that they see your innate non-book learning intelligence.

Grad schools, depending on the subject are more lenient. Usually, you won't come out in horrible debt either as grad schools are usually paid for and you get a stipend (with the exception of psychology.)

[kimpossible]

My advice would be to visit your advisor. Often times both your core and major requirements will have a little bit of wiggle room on which ones you can take pass/no-pass instead of a graded option. If you can do it at all, you can only do it for a couple classes since you need a certain amount of graded credit. Work with your advisor to look at your schedule and class load -- see if there are any areas that look overloaded or have notoriously difficult classes that you may be able to take as pass/no-pass. It isn't glamourous but it might be a key advantage so you don't overload or stress out too much over one class. The non-grade option won't affect your GPA one way or another and having an overview with an experienced advisor for your class load and schedule is always a good thing.

To answer your direct question about if you have a less than stellar GPA when applying for grad school; of course. It's definitely not an ideal situation but it isn't the only factor that will be weighed. However, it sounds like school isn't finished for you yet. Maybe you have time to pull yourself out of a nosedive.

Do this:

a. put this term behind you. don't focus on it but don't slack.
b. meet with your advisor and look at class schedule/load
c. be aware of overloading or difficult classes, and see if a non-grade option can be used judiciously at key points
d. get involved in some organizations that focus on community work
e. check into internships with good, big name companies. something that can turn into a job opportunity after school. do it now while you're a cute student. after graduation you just become 'unemployed'
f. build a rapport with 3-5 professors now, people that can write recommendations for you a few years from now
g. repeat above with bosses or people with key positions if you get an internship or work as a volunteer for a community org


Good Luck.

[loserbutt]

yea after the hellish 2 weeks I've had... I'm thinking of ditching my law school dream.

anyways, I'm likely an econ major (could still change though) and am curious about more specifics in grad school.

[Uncle Tat]

I'm sure schools will overlook one bad semester as long as you do well all your other semesters right?

Unless you're graduating this year...

[loserbutt]

thanks HH, I almost had an aneuyrism when I got that crap grade in English today on a project I worked hard on.

sophomore...junior...

[lethal]

Originally posted by iris@Apr 22 2003, 11:12 AM
Law schools will definitely be looking at your GPA. Having a higher than normal LSAT score will do some to counteract a low GPA, but once you move under the 3.0 criteria, there is no hope left. Sorry.
Excuse me? I was under that magical 3.0 threshhold...wish I had known I had no chance to get into law school...would've saved me the time and money it cost to apply and well...would've saved me the aggrivation of going to school and suffering through it.

[loserbutt]

say again lethalweapon?

[lethal]

I had really bad grades in college. I'm in law school now with a GPA over a full point above my UGPA.

Bad grades hurt, but they aren't the be all and end all.

Plus...I'd highly recommend anyone thinking about law school to work for a few years before attending law school. Make sure you really, really want to be a lawyer. Law school really is not a pleasant experience for most people.

[TyroneK(prettypretty)]

LB.

As someone who's gone through the application and supposedly did well, I'm not quite sure why you're so despondent. It seems you're only halfway through college, if that. You've got tons of time to concentrate on what your major and courses you love. You'll be able to pump it back up pretty quickly if you keep working on it. Admissions officers know what you're majoring in and what classes might not go well for someone and what's traditionally very difficult. Also, they'll put lesser emphasis on classes that aren't strongly related to your area of concentration. From the people I've talked to and the students I know, I feel like they're flexible in giving people the benefit of the doubt and putting your record in the best possible light. If you can pick yourself back up after this small debacle, you should be fine.

And what do you hope to get from life as a lawyer? A GPA below 3.0 isn't great, but it's not disastrous either. So what if you don't get into a top 10 school? Doesn't mean your life's going to suck and that being a lawyer's not going to be worth it for you. Why do you want to be an attorney? (On a side note, I think you should ask yourself this repeatedly as your life moves on.)

Keep in mind that despite the fact that it's a magnet for risk-averse stinkers, law school is beautiful in that you can go to it anytime you want to. The timing is all under your control so you can strike quickly if the proverbial iron is already hot or give yourself more time to warm everything up and maximize your chances for getting into a good school. You don't need to go straight through. You don't need to wait a minimum number of years like business school or go straight through like most med school students do. It's a track with lots of room to move.

So really, do what HH says. Choose your classes carefully now so that you study what you want and what you do well. Move on and you'll be okay.

I also suggest working several years. I didn't do that and that's what's really hurt me more than anything else. The lack of professional experience really blares out in a field where most students don't go straight through from graduation.

[iris]

Originally posted by lethalweapon@Apr 22 2003, 11:11 AM
Excuse me? I was under that magical 3.0 threshhold...wish I had known I had no chance to get into law school...would've saved me the time and money it cost to apply and well...would've saved me the aggrivation of going to school and suffering through it.
I'm not laying down false hopes for people. I'm probably more pessimistic than your average college graduate. Just be aware that it will be difficult to go to a first-tier law school without a stellar GPA and a good LSAT score. A strong post-grad work performance, extra-curricular activities, excellent recommendations, and a good attitude can do much to counteract a less than great undergraduate career but it's not a means to an end.

Of course, a dream is never impossible and there are always exceptions to the rule, such as LW who is doing quite well now. But you should also know that if you are not certain about law school, you might not be happy there later on. It is three years of your life and a major decision to make.

[deez nuts]

knock up a rich socialite's daughter, marry her and live off daddy's money.

and they lived happily ever after. the end.

seriously, if you want to go to grad school. apply with what you have. if you don't get in, go for another degree at another school. do well and that'll show the admission boards that you're serious. i know a few people around me, when i was an undergrad and applying for med schools, that didn't get into any med schools. they went for another degree at another school. they did well while they were there and they got into a med school the second time around. one even got into harvard med.

[kasia]

Originally posted by lethalweapon@Apr 22 2003, 09:11 AM
Excuse me? I was under that magical 3.0 threshhold...wish I had known I had no chance to get into law school...would've saved me the time and money it cost to apply and well...would've saved me the aggrivation of going to school and suffering through it.
i agree. it really depends on your major, too. law schools - even first tiers - will be more forgiving of a 2.5 G.P.A. if you majored in biochemistry (versus food science or something.) similarly, they won't be that impressed with a 4.0 if you majored in communications.

they also look for trends. i had a really low GPA during my first two years of college. i just partied a lot and never went to class. my GPA was below a 2.0 at one point, no joke. i was on academic probation for 2 semesters :D my last two years, however, i received not only straight A's but the highest grade in just about every class. i made my professors write letters stating so. i attached their letters along with an affidavit explaining why i did so poorly before and how it isn't a good prediction of my law school performance. still, b/c of the low grades i received in the beginning, my overall GPA was still barely above a 3.0.

in the end, i still didn't get into a top 10 school. but i got into a few top 20's and a number of first-tiers. :D

[kasia]

my bit regarding second-tiered schools. so there's this huge hype about getting into first-tiered schools. in comparing the professors and curriculum here at usc with the second-tiered law schools in los angeles, i would say - imho - that there is a difference in quality. however, the difference is not so great that the vast majority of students graduating from a first-tier will become better lawyers than those graduating from second-tiers. i know a lot of students attending first-tiered law schools that are idiots. 3 years at harvard, and they still can't spot issues. you'd probably wonder yourself how they got in (read: mom and dad were alums or daddy made a donation). a lot of federal judges and well-known attorneys are graduates of second-tier law schools. i get a bit annoyed when people make too big of a deal out of the rankings.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by kasia@Apr 22 2003, 04:37 PM
my bit regarding second-tiered schools.  so there's this huge hype about getting into first-tiered schools.  in comparing the professors and curriculum here at usc with the second-tiered law schools in los angeles, i would say - imho - that there is a difference in quality.  however, the difference is not so great that the vast majority of students graduating from a first-tier will become better lawyers than those graduating from second-tiers.  i know a lot of students attending first-tiered law schools that are idiots.  3 years at harvard, and they still can't spot issues.  you'd probably wonder yourself how they got in (read:  mom and dad  were alums or daddy made a donation).  a lot of federal judges and well-known attorneys are graduates of second-tier law schools.  i get a bit annoyed when people make too big of a deal out of the rankings.
i can't speak for graduate studies.
but as far as undergrad goes, nobody learns what they do on the job at school. almost everybody learn to do what they do at the job itself. i don't think a higher ranked school is going to give you a better education. it still comes down to how much you apply yourself. but a higher ranked school will definitely give you a certain amount of prestige that most firms/companies will look for. like it or not, that matters a whole lot. it's a bullshit world we live in. when i was at school, i never felt that i was working at getting a good education because i knew that 80% to 90% of what i was learning was not applicable in a real-world situation and that at about 3.5 months per semester a course, i was never going to remember most of what i learnt in class. i always felt that i was just working toward a recognition that says to people that i'm qualified, even though for all practical purposes, my real qualification would come with job experience. but hey, this is how the world works. people are less likely to hire you if you come from a lower-ranked school. i'd want to go to a higher ranked school not for the quality of education, but for the prestige.

[deez nuts]

LW: u also graduated from UVA a top tier school. that prolly played a factor too.

[kasia]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 22 2003, 12:43 PM
but a higher ranked school will definitely give you a certain amount of prestige that most firms/companies will look for. like it or not, that matters a whole lot. it's a bullshit world we live in.
not if they can't pass the bar! :lol: i keep running into these harvard grads that can't pass the bar.

[TyroneK(prettypretty)]

Originally posted by kasia@Apr 22 2003, 03:37 PM
i know a lot of students attending first-tiered law schools that are idiots.
Seriously. I don't know what I'm doing at this place.

Yeah. Life's what you make out of it and how hard you work. The schools give some good background and help a bit, but it's up to you to excel or not.

Me, I can't wait to graduate and do something else.

And as far as passing the bar, that's a different kind of education in itself. That's why BarBRI and PMBR can sell us overpriced courses to teach us all the black letter stuff we were supposed to learn in law school. I don't see not passing the bar as a reflection of intelligence. I think it's more of how well your mental approach has attuned to legal issues.

Kasie, were these Harvard people you gleefully rag on good Harvard law students or poor ones?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by kasia@Apr 22 2003, 04:47 PM
not if they can't pass the bar! :lol: i keep running into these harvard grads that can't pass the bar.
honestly, if i had a trust fund, i wouldn't bother with grad school, or even undergrad. making money is all about hiring people who do things better than you to do those things for you.

[teaz0r]

the guy that heads the baker mckenzie office in thailand didn't pass the bar the first time, and failed the thai bar twice.

[lethal]

Originally posted by iris@Apr 22 2003, 02:58 PM
I'm not laying down false hopes for people. I'm probably more pessimistic than your average college graduate. Just be aware that it will be difficult to go to a first-tier law school without a stellar GPA and a good LSAT score. A strong post-grad work performance, extra-curricular activities, excellent recommendations, and a good attitude can do much to counteract a less than great undergraduate career but it's not a means to an end.

Of course, a dream is never impossible and there are always exceptions to the rule, such as LW who is doing quite well now. But you should also know that if you are not certain about law school, you might not be happy there later on. It is three years of your life and a major decision to make.
Since I don't go to a top 10 or top 25 or even a top 50 school, I should just quit now.

Listen, the higher ranked your law school is, the easier your life is going to be when you look for a job. I'll make no bones about it, but it also depends on what you want to do with your degree. Do you want to work for a big firm in a big city and work 100 hours a week? Or do you want to be an assistant DA or public defender somewhere? Perhaps you want to open your own small town practice. Harvard won't teach you to be a good small town attorney. Most, if not all, third and fourth tier schools will do a better job teaching their students the practical aspects on how to be a lawyer.

Still want to work at that big firm? Do well wherever you attend school. If you go to a lower ranked school, you'll have to do better than if you go to a higher ranked one.

And hey...make sure you want to be an attorney. Really. Think about it. A lot. Make sure you want to spend three years of your life in a place that will probably make you miserable.

And hell...don't think that a low GPA won't get you into a top school. I had a friend who got into Northwestern with a 2.14/168. I was waitlisted at Penn with my subpar GPA. In previous years, I would've likely been accepted (prior to the application explosion).

Bad grades, especially grades that aren't even THAT bad, especially for just 1 semester in your sophomore year won't kill you.

[Uncle Tat]

Uh was that 2.14 a typo? Are you sure you didn't mean 3.14?

[deez nuts]

this whole first tier and second tier bullshit is overrated. sure at the time you're going to go to the best choice out of the flock to maximize your options.
but in the end, you're in the same boat as everyone else.

case in point: the fact that i graduated from cornell med which is ranked top 10, don't mean squat now. i have co-workers in the same surgical residency program that graduated from bottom first tier to upper second tier medical schools. hell, i even have non-categorical d.o.'s and graduates from foreign med schools working with me. it don't mean jack at this point. we're all on equal playing field.

the only difference is i prolly had an edge and higher chance of getting into my first choice programs. those other guys had a slightly lower chance, but prolly worked harder than i had to. it all evens out.

in the end a graduate degree is a graduate degree. the graduate degree isn't the thing that carries you for the long haul.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Apr 22 2003, 09:07 PM
this whole first tier and second tier bullshit is overrated. sure at the time you're going to go to the best choice out of the flock to maximize your options.
but in the end, you're in the same boat as everyone else.

case in point: the fact that i graduated from cornell med which is ranked top 10, don't mean squat now. i have co-workers in the same surgical residency program that graduated from bottom first tier to upper second tier medical schools. hell, i even have non-categorical d.o.'s and graduates from foreign med schools working with me. it don't mean jack at this point. we're all on equal playing field.

the only difference is i prolly had an edge and higher chance of getting into my first choice programs. those other guys had a slightly lower chance, but prolly worked harder than i had to. it all evens out.

in the end a graduate degree is a graduate degree. the graduate degree isn't the thing that carries you for the long haul.
might be a little different for law schools, but i don't know. i looked at the websites for some of the more prestigious law firms (read: $$$) and 9 out of 10 of the lawyers they list are from 1st-tier schools.

[lethal]

Originally posted by Uncle Tat@Apr 22 2003, 09:05 PM
Uh was that 2.14 a typo?  Are you sure you didn't mean 3.14?
2.14

He was an older guy with about 10 years of journalism experience as well. I'm just trying to say that its not all about grades.

[lethal]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 22 2003, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Apr 22 2003, 09:07 PM
this whole first tier and second tier bullshit is overrated.  sure at the time you're going to go to the best choice out of the flock to maximize your options.
but in the end, you're in the same boat as everyone else. 

case in point: the fact that i graduated from cornell med which is ranked top 10,  don't mean squat now.  i have co-workers in the same surgical residency program that graduated from bottom first tier to upper second tier medical schools.  hell, i even have non-categorical d.o.'s and graduates from foreign med schools working with me.  it don't mean jack at this point.  we're all on equal playing field.

the only difference is i prolly had an edge and higher chance of getting into my first choice programs.  those other guys had a slightly lower chance, but prolly worked harder than i had to.  it all evens out.

in the end a graduate degree is a graduate degree.  the graduate degree isn't the thing that carries you for the long haul.
might be a little different for law schools, but i don't know. i looked at the websites for some of the more prestigious law firms (read: $$$) and 9 out of 10 of the lawyers they list are from 1st-tier schools.
But there's still the 1/10 that are from other schools. Its harder to break in, in some cases, much harder. Once you're in though, its a level playing field.

[Uncle Tat]

Originally posted by lethalweapon@Apr 23 2003, 05:33 AM
2.14

He was an older guy with about 10 years of journalism experience as well. I'm just trying to say that its not all about grades.
Wow 2.14 that's like a C!

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by lethalweapon@Apr 23 2003, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 22 2003, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Apr 22 2003, 09:07 PM
this whole first tier and second tier bullshit is overrated. sure at the time you're going to go to the best choice out of the flock to maximize your options.
but in the end, you're in the same boat as everyone else.

case in point: the fact that i graduated from cornell med which is ranked top 10, don't mean squat now. i have co-workers in the same surgical residency program that graduated from bottom first tier to upper second tier medical schools. hell, i even have non-categorical d.o.'s and graduates from foreign med schools working with me. it don't mean jack at this point. we're all on equal playing field.

the only difference is i prolly had an edge and higher chance of getting into my first choice programs. those other guys had a slightly lower chance, but prolly worked harder than i had to. it all evens out.

in the end a graduate degree is a graduate degree. the graduate degree isn't the thing that carries you for the long haul.
might be a little different for law schools, but i don't know. i looked at the websites for some of the more prestigious law firms (read: $$$) and 9 out of 10 of the lawyers they list are from 1st-tier schools.
But there's still the 1/10 that are from other schools. Its harder to break in, in some cases, much harder. Once you're in though, its a level playing field.
yes. but i think that only shows how much school rankings really matter.

[kasia]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 23 2003, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by lethalweapon@Apr 23 2003, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 22 2003, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Apr 22 2003, 09:07 PM
this whole first tier and second tier bullshit is overrated. sure at the time you're going to go to the best choice out of the flock to maximize your options.
but in the end, you're in the same boat as everyone else.

case in point: the fact that i graduated from cornell med which is ranked top 10, don't mean squat now. i have co-workers in the same surgical residency program that graduated from bottom first tier to upper second tier medical schools. hell, i even have non-categorical d.o.'s and graduates from foreign med schools working with me. it don't mean jack at this point. we're all on equal playing field.

the only difference is i prolly had an edge and higher chance of getting into my first choice programs. those other guys had a slightly lower chance, but prolly worked harder than i had to. it all evens out.

in the end a graduate degree is a graduate degree. the graduate degree isn't the thing that carries you for the long haul.
might be a little different for law schools, but i don't know. i looked at the websites for some of the more prestigious law firms (read: $$$) and 9 out of 10 of the lawyers they list are from 1st-tier schools.
But there's still the 1/10 that are from other schools. Its harder to break in, in some cases, much harder. Once you're in though, its a level playing field.
yes. but i think that only shows how much school rankings really matter.
i think they cheat, too. they only list their partners in their big city offices.

[lethal]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 23 2003, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by lethalweapon@Apr 23 2003, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 22 2003, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Apr 22 2003, 09:07 PM
this whole first tier and second tier bullshit is overrated. sure at the time you're going to go to the best choice out of the flock to maximize your options.
but in the end, you're in the same boat as everyone else.

case in point: the fact that i graduated from cornell med which is ranked top 10, don't mean squat now. i have co-workers in the same surgical residency program that graduated from bottom first tier to upper second tier medical schools. hell, i even have non-categorical d.o.'s and graduates from foreign med schools working with me. it don't mean jack at this point. we're all on equal playing field.

the only difference is i prolly had an edge and higher chance of getting into my first choice programs. those other guys had a slightly lower chance, but prolly worked harder than i had to. it all evens out.

in the end a graduate degree is a graduate degree. the graduate degree isn't the thing that carries you for the long haul.
might be a little different for law schools, but i don't know. i looked at the websites for some of the more prestigious law firms (read: $$$) and 9 out of 10 of the lawyers they list are from 1st-tier schools.
But there's still the 1/10 that are from other schools. Its harder to break in, in some cases, much harder. Once you're in though, its a level playing field.
yes. but i think that only shows how much school rankings really matter.
They do matter to some extent, but not going to a high ranked school isn't the end of the world either. Its just a much harder road to travel.

[artsfartsyjanet]

Originally posted by lethalweapon@Apr 22 2003, 01:01 PM
I had really bad grades in college. I'm in law school now with a GPA over a full point above my UGPA.

Bad grades hurt, but they aren't the be all and end all.

Plus...I'd highly recommend anyone thinking about law school to work for a few years before attending law school. Make sure you really, really want to be a lawyer. Law school really is not a pleasant experience for most people.
you give people such glimmer of hope.... =)