"Chinese Laundry" brand shoes

[haku]

This is a total sideshow to what's going on in Iraq, Oakland, etc, so I apologize.

:! But I got a catalog from Macy's today that advertises a product on the back page called "Chinese Laundry" brand shoes. :!

What the %$#@? :angry: :blink: :confused: :angry:

Look at the website, www.chineselaundry.com, and let me know what you think.

Here's a bit about the company, from the website. Not a word on the name to be found anywhere on the page.

Cels Enterprises, Inc., founded in 1971 by Robert and Carol Goldman, is a privately held woman's footwear company with headquarters in Los Angeles, California. From its beginnings as a shoe manufacturer selling to mass merchants, Cels Enterprises, Inc. has steadily expanded its influence in the fashion footwear industry. Consumer research and creative insight have led to the development of six branded divisions in the past decade, positioning Cels Enterprises, Inc. as one of the foremost fashion footwear leaders in the marketplace.

CHINESE LAUNDRY launched in 1982 with a collection of fashion forward footwear targeted to the young women’s market. From stylish daytime looks in innovative fabrics and leathers, to evening collections in dressy metallics and iridescents, CHINESE LAUNDRY continues to create and deliver style and fashion at an affordable price. CHINESE LAUNDRY has carved a niche for itself in today's competitive market and is available in better department and specialty stores nationwide.

[himura-dono]

wow....those jewish women are fux0red.

[Tao]

psshhh....i've never even heard of that brand. what kind of a stupid ass name is that anyways. i'm not so offended ans I am amused that these ppl would name a brand name "chinese laundry". Frankly that's gonna kill your coolness before it ever catches on. i mean please, it's like naming womens wear "jewish bagel" or some shit. or "korean grocery", that's just plain dumb.


they should just call it, "white ass white dude"

[TyroneK(prettypretty)]

Haku. Good name.

Wow. I always thought those guys were started by Chinese women.

[haku]

How about "Egyptian Servitude" cologne, or "Plantation Slave" leather belts?

Ugly.

Do you think this is as bad as A&F, in terms of dis honoring history?

What completes the ensemble:
A&F T-shirt
Chinese Laundry shoes
.
.
.

[d-boy]

How sad if true. Goldman is Jewish, right?

On a related topic, despite the many Jewish guys out there with Asian fever, IMO, a lot of Jews are anti-Asian. I think it's partly due to the fact that Asians and Jews compete in certain fields (i.e. academics), and that Jews feel threatened by Asians.

Examples:
1) every time an Asian character appeared on the show Seinfeld, the Asians had horrible English accents and were caricatures of Asian stereotypes. (yeah, i know the show is a comedy, but come on.)

2) There's some Jewish female comic, (Silverman?), who goes around using the word "chink" in her stand-up. she defended its use as not-racist.

3) Jewish columnists calling for limits on the number of Asians admitted to elite universities, despite Jews undergoing the same in the past.


Yeah, I know the above isn't scientific proof, just some random examples.

What do y'all think? Am i talking out of my ass or have you too noticed a lot of Jewish racism against Asians?

[tvbdude]

that's fucked up. chinese laundry? motherfucking whiteys

[tvbdude]

shouldn't this be in the rant room?

[Tao]

personally, i think it has to do more with individuals than in general. one of my friends back in high school is half jewish, and he's one of the nicest guys i know. and in HS also, my intel mentor/professor was jewish and he was also a really great guy. he had an italian guy, an indian woman, a chinese woman, and a japanese guy (all of these people are post-docs) working for him. and he was always very courteous and showed genuine interest in the diversity around him. One of the best guys I know. So yeah, i'd say it's too big of a stretch to call this a anti-chinese thing by jews.

[moschikat]

uhm.
i like the shoes. they're quite comfy actually . . . . *makes mental note to never buy the brand again*

then again, I have jewish god-parents . . so uhm . . er . . . :huh:

[purezero]

Wow. This is kind of scary. Peggy wanted to get some Chinese Laundry shoes for her prom dress and everyone commented on how cute they were and how they have like 4 or 5 pairs. I've heard and seen Chinese Laundry shoes for a long time now. I actually own a pair. But you know, people haven't really brought anything up about it.

Reminds me of Romeo and Juliet, "What’s in a name? That which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet." And the thing with the A&F stuff, the shirts were new. They had come out with these shirts recently. Chinese Laundry is a brand name, and it obviously has been around for a while. And just because a brand has had a sordid past, would you really stop shopping there because of it? There are plenty of stores out there that have been around practically forever, and I'm sure that they've had some crazy laws or something that discriminated against another. I would mention names, but my memory is a little hazy, and I don't want to call anything on any store wrongly. I think they were drugstores though.

Besides that, I think Chinese Laundry is kind of a cute name, in that I'm not taking in the history of it, but in the separate words themselves. I like clean laundry and I'm all about the Chinese culture. I do think that "Plantation Slave" is an ugly name though.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. :dance:

Woo. I got confirmation on a store name. They're out of business now, but Woolworths was one.

And Spirited Away was COOL! :D

[YuheiCarreau]

It seems that the company was founded by a married couple... Is it possible that the woman is Chinese, but took her husband's surname? I can't imagine why a Jewish couple would name their company "Chinese Laundry" just for no reason. The "Soy Vey" line of sauces was founded by a Jewish man married to a Chinese woman.

[haku]

This is a total sideshow to what's going on in Iraq, Oakland, etc, so I apologize.

:! But I got a catalog from Macy's today that advertises a product on the back page called "Chinese Laundry" brand shoes. :!

What the %$#@? :angry: :blink: :confused: :angry:

Look at the website, www.chineselaundry.com, and let me know what you think.

Here's a bit about the company, from the website. Not a word on the name to be found anywhere on the page.

Cels Enterprises, Inc., founded in 1971 by Robert and Carol Goldman, is a privately held woman's footwear company with headquarters in Los Angeles, California. From its beginnings as a shoe manufacturer selling to mass merchants, Cels Enterprises, Inc. has steadily expanded its influence in the fashion footwear industry. Consumer research and creative insight have led to the development of six branded divisions in the past decade, positioning Cels Enterprises, Inc. as one of the foremost fashion footwear leaders in the marketplace.

CHINESE LAUNDRY launched in 1982 with a collection of fashion forward footwear targeted to the young women’s market. From stylish daytime looks in innovative fabrics and leathers, to evening collections in dressy metallics and iridescents, CHINESE LAUNDRY continues to create and deliver style and fashion at an affordable price. CHINESE LAUNDRY has carved a niche for itself in today's competitive market and is available in better department and specialty stores nationwide.

[iris]

I have and like Chinese Laundry shoes. I think it just refers to the fabrics used. When CL first came out, they used Oriental-inspired patterns and silks. They've been around for quite a while. It's just a brand name. It's only unfortunate that the words "Chinese" and "Laundry" are associated with negative connotations when used together because it was an honest living for early Asian immigrants.

[SunWuKong]

i would love to own a laundry place. overhead must not be very high.

[artsfartsyjanet]

I've seen CL at Sammi's here in St. Louis. The style looks appealing, but I never owned a pair. Now would I own a pair? I'm not sure because the name CL may unintentionally have a negative association. Sure, it's just foot wear, but I'm quite wary of what I buy too.

[kasia]

i worked in the macy's shoe department in high school so i'm familiar with just about every brand of shoe out there :ph34r: chinese laundry shoes sucked. they're always a year behind in style and not at all comfortable. when i was working, they ran from $40-80 full price - could get them on sale for about $20.00. they're really not that well-made and the material is cheap. that's just my opinion, though. and i could be biased b/c i really didn't like the name.

i was very offended when i first discovered the line - but i was also 16 at the time. i've become insensitized to it, kinda, but i can understand how somebody learning about it for the first time can be offended. and does it really make a difference if the person who owns it is chinese?

[teaz0r]

i had a couple pairs chinese laundry shoes.
i like their heels. i remember they had the cutest
mary jane pumps. and the strappy fuck me shoes
are quite cute. and i think the price is good, not
expensive at all.

they're definitely not shoes i'd wear everyday. maybe
on a nightout with the girls. i never really found the name
insulting. i don't even find the A&F shirts insulting.

anything's better than silly rocket dog shoes.

[haku]

You didn't find A&F t shirts offensive? Wow, that's pretty unbelievable...did you think the protesters were "whiney" or off base? Or was it just some thing you didn't find you could muster energy to protest?

BTW - who makes "fuck me" shoes, and what do they look like? :P

Can you post a pic?

[teaz0r]

i didn't think they were whiney, i simply didn't really care. we all have different limits of what's offensive and what's not.

a whole range of designers make fuck me shoes.
i prefer manolo blahniks.

http://www.retroshoestore.com/prod_img/wtim-manola-s.jpg

this is one of my favourite pairs. i got it on sale for $750.

[kasia]

moving to women's thread. please don't double-post.

[moschikat]

fuck me shoes = Jimmy Choo shoes

[teaz0r]

Originally posted by moschikat@Apr 9 2003, 05:10 AM
fuck me shoes = Jimmy Choo shoes
oh nice call!
love them too.

these are kinda old though, jimmy choos from 2001:
http://www.stylewithsubstance.com/shoe/jimmychoogreenboots.jpg



chinese laundry, "kite" ; these are totally cute. they've got another one that's pretty
popular at urbanoutfitters, called the "acrobat", total dominatrix style. reminds me
of lucy liu in payback. v. cute.
http://www.chineselaundry.com/img/shoes/BKIL31LKCCAM_M.jpg

[haku]

"It's da SHOES!!"

Thanks for the pics...I liked the Manolo Blahnik's, and the Acrobat, but the CL one just didn't say "fuck me"...but what do I know? They said "I'm so plaid-wanna-be" to me. And there's hardly anything "Chinese" or "Laundry" about them.

$750 :unsure: Maybe that says, "You've been fucked!"

And I'm into all of a woman's sensuality, head to toe, but to me, the heart, mind and soul matter most. It's not the shoes you're in, but how far you've walked in 'em ;)

Uh, and *how* you walk in them...

...and where you're walking, and who you're walking with, and when you're taking them off...

Back to topic:

My email friends have a wide range of opinion:
1. Shit, man, there's war and crap going on - I can't be bothered with shoes - even if it is a racist piece of crap.
2. I wouldn't wear that piece of crap name on my sole or soul - boycott!
3. Let the Chinese take care of their own "Laundry".
4. I'm not offended. Only if they had slanty eyed, coned hat wearing icons would I be offended.
5. It's cute.
6. --this just in-- We need to be more aware. Bush and company are pushing more and more racist propaganda our way. Why is it they think they can get away with it with Asians, but if you diss black folks, you gonna get hit?

So if you're not offended, why not? Is it because the historical implications of "Chinese Laundry" and servitude just don't bother you? I mean, you go to a "DRY CLEANERS" now, folks, or a "French Cleaners" (which I thought referred to a style of cleaning or the delicates that were laundered, not who WORKED BEHIND THE COUNTER).

Saying "Chinese Laundry" now seems to be implying that that's what Chinese people do now; at the very least, it invokes "the good old days" when everybody knew their place.

[Tao]

Saying "Chinese Laundry" now seems to be implying that that's what Chinese people do now; at the very least, it invokes "the good old days" when everybody knew their place.

yes that is a good point. it sorta invokes the "boy" when pertaining to how whites used to call blacks. I guess i'm offended, though it is still sorta borderline. A&f was a lot worse cause they deliberatly put some chinky face on shirts, and also mocked buddhism, which is just damned bastardly.

[iris]

There was a difference between the A & F shirts and "Chinese Laundry" shoes. A & F shirts depicted two extremely slanty-eyed Asians in what constituted as Caucasian ideals of Asian dress with a logo stating "Two Wongs Can Make it White." The negative caricature of Asians along with the obvious play on supposed Chinese accents offended many Asian Americans who neither have accents nor considered their eyes to be "slitty." A & F resurrect the old stereotype that people of Asian descent have language and comprehension problems. The logo together with the rice paddy hats and slanty eyes are remnants of negatively stereotypical and false imagery of APA only few decades ago.

The brand Chinese Laundry first refered to the patterns and silks used in the fabric that were inspired by Asian design. It was named after the design, "Chinese" and the fabrics used, "laundry." They did not use stereotypical Asian imagery in any of their ads nor any racist slogans. Beyond that, the words "Chinese" and "laundry" together should not be seen as something shameful especially since it was a way many early immigrants of Asian ancestry made their fortune and living in the "New World." Only when an individual or organization uses the phrase to refer to a "lower class," does offense should be raised. However, since it was an honest way of living, most people should admire the fortitude of Asian Americans to raise themselves from poverty rather than look down upon them for not inheriting their wealth. God forbid we should work for something in this world.

[kasia]

for me - and take note that i discovered this line in the mid-90's - i was more bothered by the appropriation of chinese clothes/culture/etc. by the mainstream society. during that time, a lot of the chinese laundry shoes used Chinese fabrics and designs. this was during the time that a lot of the companies were coming out with baby-tees featuring dragons and chinese words. teen magazines with white girls in qi paos. i thought that chinese laundry was just jumping on the bandwagon.

to be fair, though, i checked their site and found out that the chinese laundry line was actually created in 1982 - before it became trendy to be asian. so i think it is fair to say that we shouldn't automatically draw any conclusions from solely the name of the company. still, the fact that there are no overt racist depictions does not mean that the name was not based on a racist idea. one must question why a white couple - assuming that they are white - would choose the name 'chinese laundry'. i'm not saying that there isn't a possibility that they chose it for a race-neutral reason. perhaps they did. until we find out, though, i can see why people would want to question their motive.

(btw, i sent them an email asking this very question.)

[haku]

Iris: clearly A&F was a worse offender. It's interesting how you frame the "Chinese Laundry" name. It seems like it's misappropriation and cultural commodification at the very least to me, exotification, etc., but you seem to take pride in an aspect of immigrant roots, which is totally cool. However, I don't think that most people view that image that way.

I'd be interested to hear what people think.

I have been trying to get some answers from CL, but so far no luck, just "Thank you for your interest" type emails, from someone with a Vietnamese last name...

[applehead]

Originally posted by haku@Apr 10 2003, 09:13 AM

I have been trying to get some answers from CL, but so far no luck, just "Thank you for your interest" type emails, from someone with a Vietnamese last name...
hahahahha.
that's ironic.

[iris]

Originally posted by haku@Apr 10 2003, 11:13 AM
Iris: clearly A&F was a worse offender. It's interesting how you frame the "Chinese Laundry" name. It seems like it's misappropriation and cultural commodification at the very least to me, exotification, etc., but you seem to take pride in an aspect of immigrant roots, which is totally cool. However, I don't think that most people view that image that way.

I'd be interested to hear what people think.

I have been trying to get some answers from CL, but so far no luck, just "Thank you for your interest" type emails, from someone with a Vietnamese last name...
There is no "worse offender" because the analogy between the two is non-existent. In my International Marketing class, our project was based on footwear hence why I know where the name came from. The peak of Asian immigration occured during the 80's bringing with them an explosion in Asian cultural trends in food and clothing. During that decade, many new Asian businesses opened in California, most of which were clothing manufactureres. They imported Oriental-inspired fabrics and silks and starting a craze for silk purses that gradually led to the idea of shoes made from the same fabric to match the purses. Then George Michael "exotified" the Asian race with his portrayal of Asian women as sexy and desirable in several of his videos causing other stars to jump on the band wagon. In the 1990's, it was Nicole Kidman with her green silk, che-pao at the Academy Awards, that began the fervor for actual Asian clothing - Mandarin collars and butchered versions of the che-pao.

Like Kasie, I was also annoyed when "Asianess" became trendy. People went around wearing shirts with Chinese characters that said things like, "table," without knowing what they meant. However, there is no law stating that people beyond Asian ethnicity may not wear Asian-inspired clothing. Like many youths, most of us wear fashion influenced by the rap/ hip-hop and Black culture. Many of us also follow White designers. Burberry. Louis Vuitton, and Armani have become very popular in Hong Kong and Japan.

If the issue is a white couple "appropriating" an Asian name for their own, well we've never owned common words before and it would be difficult to claim all words refering to Asian ancesty or history for exclusively our own. Yes, they probably could have been more sensitive and chosen another name such as "Asian-inspired Footwear," but why do the words "Chinese" and "laundry" when used together make many Asians uncomfortable? It's too bad society has condition us to look down upon our roots and take shame in poverty. America was and always has been a land of immigrants. Unlike slavery, Asians had the chance and choice to make a living when they came here. Berefit of education and monetary means, many choose laundry and restaurants as a means of living and many continue to do so today. Sneering at the past perpetuates the idea that an occupation owning restaurants or laundry facilites is low class and undesirable. But why? One is owning one's own business and making money - the veritable American dream.

[haku]

Iris: more later, I appreciate your thoughtfulness and the fact that you have some info on the name that came from a class you took. Thanks.

However, I really don't at all believe that people who take offense at a ?Jewish? couple (not white) naming a product line "Chinese Laundry" are ashamed of their history or "sneering" down at immigrant working class jobs.

Rather, I think they generally do take pride in THEIR OWN history, and just feel offended that SOMEONE ELSE feels justified in using it.

I mean, wouldn't you find it offensive if you were Hindu, and someone took a God image and put it on a toilet cover? Probably. (But maybe not if it was on a t-shirt...)

It's just that feeling that we and our history are subject to becoming "things" to be used by the mainstream, actually the well to do, chic mainstream.

I'm just as offended by things like "The Real Life Beverly Hillbillies" which seemed set up to just make fun of poor people...

[applehead]

i feel that some people think it's IN to be political
and make an issue out of things that shouldn't.

[iris]

Originally posted by haku@Apr 10 2003, 01:08 PM
Iris: more later, I appreciate your thoughtfulness and the fact that you have some info on the name that came from a class you took. Thanks.

However, I really don't at all believe that people who take offense at a ?Jewish? couple (not white) naming a product line "Chinese Laundry" are ashamed of their history or "sneering" down at immigrant working class jobs.

Rather, I think they generally do take pride in THEIR OWN history, and just feel offended that SOMEONE ELSE feels justified in using it.

I mean, wouldn't you find it offensive if you were Hindu, and someone took a God image and put it on a toilet cover? Probably. (But maybe not if it was on a t-shirt...)

It's just that feeling that we and our history are subject to becoming "things" to be used by the mainstream, actually the well to do, chic mainstream.

I'm just as offended by things like "The Real Life Beverly Hillbillies" which seemed set up to just make fun of poor people...
The point is that they aren't putting an image of Buddha on a toilet cover or an image of Chinese Laundry workers on shoes. They were inspired by the fashion and design of Oriental clothing to make shoes out of the very same fabrics. Yes, it's too bad the people who own it aren't Asian, but would you be less offended if they were?

History is choke full of events and occurences. To deny the usage of words because they relate to the past is illogical and complicated. I understand what you mean by objectification of a historical event, however, that is common in a capitalistic society. At worse, it helps perpetuates negative stereotypes (though owning your own place of business shouldn't be seen as such.) At best, it helps us remember our past. "Roots," a very popular Canadian clothing line got slack because it was started by a white man and many African Americans believed the word "Roots" can only refer to the Black population due to it's usage in film and music as reference to Black history.

[iris]

Originally posted by haku@Apr 10 2003, 01:08 PM
I mean, wouldn't you find it offensive if you were Hindu, and someone took a God image and put it on a toilet cover? Probably. (But maybe not if it was on a t-shirt...)

Putting a venerable image on a toilet is blasphemous because you are intentionally defacing a worshipped deity. Refer to the U.S. flag. The image should not be used to make shirts, but can be used as a print on a shirt or have its image depicted in print format. It should never touch the ground because it is something to be revered and respected.

There are many images of Jesus Christ on shirts and other mediums, but not say on toilet paper because there is a difference that most people understand from common sense. There are boundaries.

I'm just as offended by things like "The Real Life Beverly Hillbillies" which seemed set up to just make fun of poor people...
Most people are offended by it nowadays because we live in a more enlightened and racially-aware society. We understand it depicts White rural folks negatively. How does Chinese Laundry depict Asian people in a detrimental way? Just ism made a good point in that it might typecast Asians into a box, but the phrase and occupation itself is not negative. I cannot claim absolute certaintly on this because racism does exist but if one wanted to be a doctor, knowing that the majority of Asians worked in laundry or restaurants in the past would not hinder your path as a physician. While interviewing for med. school, I doubt the interviewer would have in the back on his mind, "this person works in rice paddies and owns a laundry service."

Occupations are a class-defined hierarchy. Owning a laundry service is socially-defined as low-class and that's just too bad because it's not.

[haku]

Okay, Iris: I'll just let Emil Guillermo do the talking. From Asianweek, circa the A&F controversy, in an article entitled "For all us Laundrymen". The whole article is at
http://www.asianweek.com/2002_05_10/opinion_emil.html
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Professor would like to inject a massive dose of history.

The most offensive Abercrombie T-shirt featured two smiling, slant-eyed gents (short, naturally) wearing pointy-type bamboo rice paddy hats, presumably the proprietors of “Wong Brothers Laundry Service,” standing by their motto, “Two Wongs Can Make it White.”

Why is that offensive?

It’s the laundryman image. In Chinese American history, the laundryman is about as seminal as it gets.

While most Chinese were in California, about 30 percent of those in the 1870s were in Idaho, Montana and Nevada looking for gold. You may not think of Butte, Mont., as a bustling Chinatown, but in 1880 Butte was like a big-sky version of San Francisco. The Chinese population comprised 21.1 percent of the town, mostly all men, looking for their fortunes.

But here’s why Chinese cowboys didn’t become a hallmark of the far West: In 1883, the Montana Territorial Supreme Court declared all mining claims by aliens like the Chinese to be void. In the wake of that discrimination, the Chinese men scrambled for work. Since there were few women, they were forced to turn to “women’s work,” hiring themselves as domestic servants or setting up shop as cooks, tailors and laundrymen. It’s all that society allowed for them.

Making fun of the laundryman is like making fun of slaves.

According to Lan Cao and Himelee Novas’ book Everything You Need to Know About Asian American History, by 1905 Butte had 32 Chinese laundries. In time the trend spread to the point where 25 percent of all employed Chinese men worked in a laundry. By 1890 in California, 69 percent of all laundrymen were Chinese.

But Emil, you ask, shouldn’t we celebrate the entrepreneurial resourcefulness of these laundry workers?

Sure. But look what happened in San Francisco of all places. Here’s a fact that’s hard to believe, but in the late 1800s it was fairly common for people in our city to send out their laundry — to Honolulu or Canton! That’s not exactly express service.

Chinese laundryman came to San Francisco to fill the need. But since there were so many of them, the city actually passed discriminatory ordinances intended to “drive (the Chinese) to other states.” Cao and Novas’ book tells how the Laundry Ordinance set up outrageous licensing fees that were aimed to put the Chinese out of business. If you used a horse in your delivery, you paid a lower fee. If you didn’t use a horse, you paid a fee that was nearly 800 percent higher. Guess who didn’t use horses?

Back in Butte, the Chinese laundries and other small businesses came up against an organized boycott by labor unions and the local chamber of commerce that attempted to destroy their presence. The Chinese actually hired a well-known white attorney, former U.S. Senator Colonel Wilbur Fisk Sanders, to sue the unions. The Chinese won, and the laundrymen were considered one of the first civil rights protestors in APA history.

You don’t mess with the Chinese laundryman image. When Abercrombie & Fitch put out that shirt, it was not exactly honoring APA civil rights pioneers.

The other recent story that beckons history is the California Department of Insurance’s record of the coolie trade. It was dwarfed by the major story that insurance companies in the 19th century actually bought insurance policies on the lives of black slaves. Check out their website at www.insurance.ca.gov.

The coolie part is but a footnote, but there it is. Manhattan Life provided a policy “that insured shippers for their cargo of 700 Chinese coolies on a journey from China in 1854.” If you ever wanted historical proof of your objectification, there it is. Chinese people were insured like a Ming vase. But not considered as pretty.

Let me finish by saying the most surprising reactions I’ve received from the Abercrombie story have indeed been from Asians who actually sent me e-mails cussing me out — in Chinese. One even suggested that as an APA of Filipino descent, I was hardly Asian, since the Philippines is comprised of islands, making me an “islander.” What a load of chicken poop.

My friends, in America, Asian is Asian — immigrant or native born. We may define ourselves proudly by ethnicity, but we live in a society that continues to define us by history. Ethnicity is important, but we have blood and geographic ties to a much larger commonality. We may act like we’re in separate rooms in a big hotel, but when you come out of them, you’d have to be a blind man to not understand that we’re in this together.

That’s why we celebrate Asian Pacific American Heritage Month.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That being said, is putting "Chinese Laundry" on a pair of shoes "messing with the Laundryman image"? What exactly is the intent? I don't really get it, personally.

Responses?

[iris]

Haku, how does that even contribute to the debate? The writer expresses discontent at the image of laundrymen on A & F t-shirts and then concludes that because Asians were bullied for having the gall to succeed in business, we shouldn't celebrate their resourcefulness. It is a slightly sarcastic parody piece on the history of Asian immigrants.

Yes, laundry was considered "women's work," but that is offensive for women back then as it is now. Two racial and discriminatory practices does not validate each other.

[kasia]

Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 11:32 AM
They were inspired by the fashion and design of Oriental clothing to make shoes out of the very same fabrics.
that's just an assumption. we do not know why they chose the name. which is why we are asking them. they may not have used chinese fabrics and such until the mid-90's. prior to that, the name may have had nothing to do with their shoes. the reason that people find the name problematic is not because they are appropriating the two words which obviously we have no claim over. rather, it seems that they - the jewish couple - are taking a part of our history. i think we're overlooking the fact that many asians did not choose to open restaurants or laundromats but were rather forced into these fields because they could not find work elsewhere. the same goes on today. many professionals from korea, china, taiwan, and other countries find themselves giving up their careers in asia to find work as a waiter here in america - the concept of economic degradation - either because their degrees are not recognized or because of accent-discrimination. they'll still take pride in their work, sure. but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be bothered if a non-asian individual - or even an asian individual - decides to profit off their predicament.

putting the picture of a buddha on a t-shirt is not per se offensive. having that same t-shirt worn by a snotty white girl who has no understanding nor respect for the religion, however, is.

further - and this is no longer in response to iris' post - i think it's important to understand that the reason why some of us question these issues is not because we have nothing better to do or because we're trying to look for racism where it does not exist. our actions are really reactions to the racism we have dealt with our entire lives.

[iris]

Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 01:59 PM
that's just an assumption. 



I should have made clear that we interviewed the company and that was the reason they gave us for "branding" purposes. It may or may not be true and could have been said because we were a team of all Asian students, but since I have no proof otherwise, I will take their word on it.

putting the picture of a buddha on a t-shirt is not per se offensive. having that same t-shirt worn by a snotty white girl who has no understanding nor respect for the religion, however, is.

That is very true, but how do we determine who is exactly respectful of another's culture or religion or faith? We cannot be watchdogs for every single individual of the population and neither should we be. Fortunately we have the freedom of expression in this country and even if I do not believe in pagan beliefs of Halloween, I may dress up as a witch on October 31st if I choose to do so. That being said, it is annoying when someone unintentionally invades on your culture without understanding it.

further - and this is no longer in response to iris' post - i think it's important to understand that the reason why some of us question these issues is not because we have nothing better to do or because we're trying to look for racism where it does not exist. our actions are really reactions to the racism we have dealt with our entire lives.

Well said. Issues should be debated out to understand why some people feel the way they do or to help others understand.

[kasia]

Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 10:16 AM
In my International Marketing class, our project was based on footwear hence why I know where the name came from. The peak of Asian immigration occured during the 80's bringing with them an explosion in Asian cultural trends in food and clothing. During that decade, many new Asian businesses opened in California, most of which were clothing manufactureres. They imported Oriental-inspired fabrics and silks and starting a craze for silk purses that gradually led to the idea of shoes made from the same fabric to match the purses.
it's good that we have this. do you guys find their reason acceptable? assuming that they are telling the truth, would it mean that the name is not offensive? what do shoes made of chinese fabrics have to do with laundry?

[iris]

Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 02:19 PM
it's good that we have this.  do you guys find their reason acceptable?  assuming that they are telling the truth, would it mean that the name is not offensive?  what do shoes made of chinese fabrics have to do with laundry?
I have no idea Kasie. Honestly at the time, I was 19 and didn't really press the issue. I think all that was on my mind was, "get the 'A' in class." :lol:

I wish I had grilled them a little more on it now, but spilt milk and all. I accept their reasonings (though I'm not sure I believe it) because I don't find the words themselves offensive. I find it annoying that it's owned by someone other than Asian, but I would still purchase the shoes if I were looking for the perfect pair to match that slinky black dress and they happened to have it.

[golden_buns]

Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 12:07 PM
I should have made clear that we interviewed the company and that was the reason they gave us for "branding" purposes. It may or may not be true and could have been said because we were a team of all Asian students, but since I have no proof otherwise, I will take their word on it.

Well how about if asians made new line of ovens and called it "jewish chambers" just for brand purposes? Would that be ok too?

I have to agree with Haku on this, Chinese Laundry sounds pretty derogatory to me.

[kasia]

Originally posted by golden_buns@Apr 10 2003, 12:25 PM
Well how about if asians made new line of ovens and called it "jewish chambers" just for brand purposes? Would that be ok too?
wow. not bad.

[iris]

Originally posted by golden_buns@Apr 10 2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 12:07 PM
I should have made clear that we interviewed the company and that was the reason they gave us for "branding" purposes. It may or may not be true and could have been said because we were a team of all Asian students, but since I have no proof otherwise, I will take their word on it.

Well how about if asians made new line of ovens and called it "jewish chambers" just for brand purposes? Would that be ok too?

I have to agree with Haku on this, Chinese Laundry sounds pretty derogatory to me.
Why do you feel that laundry as a profession is low-class and detrimental? On the other hand, killing jews like murdering others based on ethnicity is wrong.

Is it because that professions are socially-defined and therefore being a laundry owner in the eyes of a Caucasion-dominated culture is seen as shameful?

[kasia]

Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by golden_buns@Apr 10 2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 12:07 PM
I should have made clear that we interviewed the company and that was the reason they gave us for "branding" purposes. It may or may not be true and could have been said because we were a team of all Asian students, but since I have no proof otherwise, I will take their word on it.

Well how about if asians made new line of ovens and called it "jewish chambers" just for brand purposes? Would that be ok too?

I have to agree with Haku on this, Chinese Laundry sounds pretty derogatory to me.
Why do you feel that laundry as a profession is low-class and detrimental? On the other hand, killing jews like murdering others based on ethnicity is wrong.
laundry as a profession is not. forcing an entire race into that profession and then ridiculing them for it, however, is.

[golden_buns]

Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 12:29 PM
laundry as a profession is not. forcing an entire race into that profession and then ridiculing them for it, however, is.
exactly my words, especially on the ridicluing part

[iris]

Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by golden_buns@Apr 10 2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 12:07 PM
I should have made clear that we interviewed the company and that was the reason they gave us for "branding" purposes. It may or may not be true and could have been said because we were a team of all Asian students, but since I have no proof otherwise, I will take their word on it.

Well how about if asians made new line of ovens and called it "jewish chambers" just for brand purposes? Would that be ok too?

I have to agree with Haku on this, Chinese Laundry sounds pretty derogatory to me.
Why do you feel that laundry as a profession is low-class and detrimental? On the other hand, killing jews like murdering others based on ethnicity is wrong.
laundry as a profession is not. forcing an entire race into that profession and then ridiculing them for it, however, is.
Agreed definitely. Force is an issue I have contention with I suppose. I feel most Asians were strong enough to do whatever they could to drag themselves up from poverty during a time of extreme racism rather than die out or beg for money. Their avenue just happened be laundry service. However, when I equate that with cotton pickers back then and seasonal fruit pickers now, I see your point.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 02:59 PM
many professionals from korea, china, taiwan, and other countries find themselves giving up their careers in asia to find work as a waiter here in america - the concept of economic degradation - either because their degrees are not recognized or because of accent-discrimination.
uh... to the best of my knowledge, that is not true.
i think i should find your statement offensive. :)
just kidding.

[SunWuKong]

am i the only one that doesn't find the "exoticisation" of asian cultures to be offensive?
i wish restaurants had general tso's chicken feet.

[teaz0r]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 11 2003, 03:35 AM
am i the only one that doesn't find the "exoticisation" of asian cultures to be offensive?

no tirak. you're not the only one.

[kasia]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:33 PM
uh...  to the best of my knowledge, that is not true.
i think i should find your statement offensive.  :)
just kidding.
come to k-town. and san francisco chinatown, while you're at it. these people are not uneducated.

my paternal grandfather did not choose to be a waiter. he was an engineer in china. my maternal grandfather did not choose to be a janitor. he was a manager in hong kong.

of course they weren't literally forced into these professions, but they didn't have much of a choice. how limited must a person's options be before you decide that they were 'forced'? job discrimination, btw, was a lot more prevalent back then.

[SunWuKong]

maybe i just don't really care what mainstream america has of me and mine.
although i kind of have to agree that if it was something like "Jewish Money Lenders", i'm fairly certain that jewish people would be up in arms. but that doesn't necessarily mean that we have to be like jewish people.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:33 PM
uh... to the best of my knowledge, that is not true.
i think i should find your statement offensive.  :)
just kidding.
come to k-town. and san francisco chinatown, while you're at it. these people are not uneducated.

my paternal grandfather did not choose to be a waiter. he was an engineer in china. my maternal grandfather did not choose to be a janitor. he was a manager in hong kong.

of course they weren't literally forced into these professions, but they didn't have much of a choice. how limited must a person's options be before you decide that they were 'forced'? job discrimination, btw, was a lot more prevalent back then.
grandparents right?
but you said that it's still happening now.

[iris]

On a related note and nothing to do with shoes, do you think that phrases can assume different or innocuous meanings later on? Unlike "chink," and other racial slurs, "Chinese" and "laundry," seperately have no hidden meanings. If we no longer see the profession as degrading but we keep tying in "Chinese" and "laundry" as humiliating and detrimental to our race, then are we ourselves perpetuating the false stereotype that Chinese people doing laundry nowadays is shameful? Are we perpetuating a socially-defined class heirarchy that we ourselves don't believe in because we've been conditioned to do so?

[kasia]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:35 PM
am i the only one that doesn't find the "exoticisation" of asian cultures to be offensive?
i wish restaurants had general tso's chicken feet.
for me, i'm just annoyed b/c they get to choose when my culture is trendy and when it is not.

[kasia]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:33 PM
uh... to the best of my knowledge, that is not true.
i think i should find your statement offensive. :)
just kidding.
come to k-town. and san francisco chinatown, while you're at it. these people are not uneducated.

my paternal grandfather did not choose to be a waiter. he was an engineer in china. my maternal grandfather did not choose to be a janitor. he was a manager in hong kong.

of course they weren't literally forced into these professions, but they didn't have much of a choice. how limited must a person's options be before you decide that they were 'forced'? job discrimination, btw, was a lot more prevalent back then.
grandparents right?
but you said that it's still happening now.
i see it happening with new immigrants - mostly my clients. but i'm not going to name them.

[iris]

Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:35 PM
am i the only one that doesn't find the "exoticisation" of asian cultures to be offensive?
i wish restaurants had general tso's chicken feet.
for me, i'm just annoyed b/c they get to choose when my culture is trendy and when it is not.
:lol: I totally see that happening with every Oscar fashion parade.

[kasia]

Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 12:40 PM
On a related note and nothing to do with shoes, do you think that phrases can assume different or innocuous meanings later on? Unlike "chink," and other racial slurs, "Chinese" and "laundry," seperately have no hidden meanings. If we no longer see the profession as degrading but we keep tying in "Chinese" and "laundry" as humiliating and detrimental to our race, then are we ourselves perpetuating the false stereotype that Chinese people doing laundry nowadays is shameful? Are we perpetuating a socially-defined class heirarchy that we ourselves don't believe in because we've been conditioned to do so?
yes, but using golden bun's example, 'Jewish' and 'oven' taken separately are not offensive. either.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:33 PM
uh... to the best of my knowledge, that is not true.
i think i should find your statement offensive. :)
just kidding.
come to k-town. and san francisco chinatown, while you're at it. these people are not uneducated.

my paternal grandfather did not choose to be a waiter. he was an engineer in china. my maternal grandfather did not choose to be a janitor. he was a manager in hong kong.

of course they weren't literally forced into these professions, but they didn't have much of a choice. how limited must a person's options be before you decide that they were 'forced'? job discrimination, btw, was a lot more prevalent back then.
grandparents right?
but you said that it's still happening now.
i see it happening with new immigrants - mostly my clients. but i'm not going to name them.
by "professionals", what kind of degrees are you talking about?
i really don't know any chinese PhDs working as waiters.

[iris]

Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 02:42 PM
yes, but using golden bun's example, 'Jewish' and 'oven' taken separately are not offensive. either.
I can't see the analogy in that because we're talking about a phrase that is in existence and a profession that exists. If we were discussing "Jewish Oven-maker," then I can't see the offensive in that either.

[kasia]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:43 PM
by "professionals", what kind of degrees are you talking about?
i really don't know any chinese PhDs working as waiters.
white collared. nurses and teachers in hong kong. waitresses in monterey park.

[SunWuKong]

you know.
i find it really difficult to make myself care about the simple fact that this brand name is "Chinese Laundry".

[kasia]

Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 12:44 PM
I can't see the analogy in that because we're talking about a phrase that is in existence and a profession that exists. If we were discussing "Jewish Oven-maker," then I can't see the offensive in that either.
i don't think it really exists anymore...not to the same extent, at least. now it's more like 'korean laundry'.

but still - we're questioning their motive along with the inherent offensiveness of the name, right?

so going back to their motive, how did they get 'chinese laundry' from shoes made from chinese fabric? laundry = soiled clothes.

[kasia]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:47 PM
you know.
i find it really difficult to make myself care about the simple fact that this brand name is "Chinese Laundry".
it's just a topic of discussion.

[iris]

Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 02:49 PM
i don't think it really exists anymore...not to the same extent, at least.  now it's more like 'korean laundry'.

but still - we're questioning their motive along with the inherent offensiveness of the name, right?

so going back to their motive, how did they get 'chinese laundry' from shoes made from chinese fabric?  laundry = soiled clothes.
It was probably for branding purposes. "Chinese Laundry" sounds so much better than "Chinese Fabric Shoes." Not to say it might not have racist sentiment behind it, intentional or otherwise.

[haku]

Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 11:56 AM
Haku, how does that even contribute to the debate? The writer expresses discontent at the image of laundrymen on A & F t-shirts and then concludes that because Asians were bullied for having the gall to succeed in business, we shouldn't celebrate their resourcefulness. It is a slightly sarcastic parody piece on the history of Asian immigrants.

Yes, laundry was considered "women's work," but that is offensive for women back then as it is now. Two racial and discriminatory practices does not validate each other.
Thanks Iris, Kasia, and others.

Iris, I think you should take another look at Emil's article, above. It was not a parody of Asian American immigrant history. He was saying that folks were forced into these occupations, that it isn't totally an API pride thing - in fact it shows how oppressive forces combined to push Asian Men (not women -where did you get that?) into the Laundryman role.

Yeah, Chinese and Laundry separately don't convey anything. But you put it together, and you're talking about history. What that history is, clearly needs more exploration and explanation, not exploitation, which is what the shoe brand name means to me.

[applehead]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:47 PM
you know.
i find it really difficult to make myself care about the simple fact that this brand name is "Chinese Laundry".
ditto.
but a good debate is fun to listen to.
and iris and kasie are great at it.

[iris]

Originally posted by haku@Apr 10 2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 11:56 AM
Haku, how does that even contribute to the debate? The writer expresses discontent at the image of laundrymen on A & F t-shirts and then concludes that because Asians were bullied for having the gall to succeed in business, we shouldn't celebrate their resourcefulness. It is a slightly sarcastic parody piece on the history of Asian immigrants.

Yes, laundry was considered "women's work," but that is offensive for women back then as it is now. Two racial and discriminatory practices does not validate each other.
Thanks Iris, Kasia, and others.

Iris, I think you should take another look at Emil's article, above. It was not a parody of Asian American immigrant history. He was saying that folks were forced into these occupations, that it isn't totally an API pride thing - in fact it shows how oppressive forces combined to push Asian Men (not women -where did you get that?) into the Laundryman role.

Yeah, Chinese and Laundry separately don't convey anything. But you put it together, and you're talking about history. What that history is, clearly needs more exploration and explanation, not exploitation, which is what the shoe brand name means to me.
Haku, Emil tried to justify that the profession itself was humiliating because it was "women's" work, embarrassing for a highly patriarchal society. He uses two forms of reasoning, that of oppressive forces (external) and those of ethnocentric forces (internal - emic society defined restrictions). His reasoning, true when regarding outside opposition, is faulty when he tries to apply it to the present age because laundry is no longer seen as women's work. The piece, if you re-read it, is slightly sarcastic and more than a little negative towards internal Asian conflicts now. It was piece written to incite solidarity for the A & F cause.

[haku]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:33 PM
uh... to the best of my knowledge, that is not true.
i think i should find your statement offensive. :)
just kidding.
come to k-town. and san francisco chinatown, while you're at it. these people are not uneducated.

my paternal grandfather did not choose to be a waiter. he was an engineer in china. my maternal grandfather did not choose to be a janitor. he was a manager in hong kong.

of course they weren't literally forced into these professions, but they didn't have much of a choice. how limited must a person's options be before you decide that they were 'forced'? job discrimination, btw, was a lot more prevalent back then.
grandparents right?
but you said that it's still happening now.
i see it happening with new immigrants - mostly my clients. but i'm not going to name them.
by "professionals", what kind of degrees are you talking about?
i really don't know any chinese PhDs working as waiters.

Have you ever talked to any South Asian Cabdrivers, to find out what their original professions were? Reuben Verghese, MD, author of "My Own Country" worked as an orderly and others have worked in burger joints for years while they waited for acceptance of their credentials, employers to hire them, etc...

That's reality...but what does "Chinese Laundry" brand mean? Yeah, and how DOES it refer to the "oriental silk" patterns? Wierd.

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:47 PM
you know.
i find it really difficult to make myself care about the simple fact that this brand name is "Chinese Laundry".
I hear you but it's like pip said; everyone has different threshholds of tolerance. I'm not offended by the branding of Chinese Laundry to the point that I'm ready to picket the brand owners but I do think the choice of branding is a poor business decision and I personally think it's a dumb name. Had I the chance to speak directly to the owners and creators of the brand, as in they were in front of me right now, I would tell them so. But that's about it.

[iris]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Apr 10 2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:47 PM
you know.
i find it really difficult to make myself care about the simple fact that this brand name is "Chinese Laundry".
I hear you but it's like pip said; everyone has different threshholds of tolerance. I'm not offended by the branding of Chinese Laundry to the point that I'm ready to picket the brand owners but I do think the choice of branding is a poor business decision and I personally think it's a dumb name. Had I the chance to speak directly to the owners and creators of the brand, as in they were in front of me right now, I would tell them so. But that's about it.
Totally my stance on it.

[haku]

Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by haku@Apr 10 2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 11:56 AM
Haku, how does that even contribute to the debate? The writer expresses discontent at the image of laundrymen on A & F t-shirts and then concludes that because Asians were bullied for having the gall to succeed in business, we shouldn't celebrate their resourcefulness. It is a slightly sarcastic parody piece on the history of Asian immigrants.

Yes, laundry was considered "women's work," but that is offensive for women back then as it is now. Two racial and discriminatory practices does not validate each other.
Thanks Iris, Kasia, and others.

Iris, I think you should take another look at Emil's article, above. It was not a parody of Asian American immigrant history. He was saying that folks were forced into these occupations, that it isn't totally an API pride thing - in fact it shows how oppressive forces combined to push Asian Men (not women -where did you get that?) into the Laundryman role.

Yeah, Chinese and Laundry separately don't convey anything. But you put it together, and you're talking about history. What that history is, clearly needs more exploration and explanation, not exploitation, which is what the shoe brand name means to me.
Haku, Emil tried to justify that the profession itself was humiliating because it was "women's" work, embarrassing for a highly patriarchal society. He uses two forms of reasoning, that of oppressive forces (external) and those of ethnocentric forces (internal - emic society defined restrictions). His reasoning is faulty because laundry is no longer seen as women's work. The piece if you read carefully is slightly sarcastic and more than a little negative towards internal Asian conflicts now. It was piece written to incite solidarity for the A & F cause.
Iris, I see your point, but I don't think Emil's logic is faulty, thought he's always polemical. He put "women's work" in quotes, acknowledging what you're saying.

I think his point is that societal forces marginalized men into the least desirable roles (and of course it's a DAMN shame that women had those roles in patriarchal societies to begin with). So making fun of a "laundryman" on a T-shirt ignores that powerful oppressive force.

Putting the name "chinese laundry" on a shoe also belittles that aspect of history too.

And Applehead, I'm :frown: sad that you didn't say I was a good debater too :P

[haku]

Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Apr 10 2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:47 PM
you know.
i find it really difficult to make myself care about the simple fact that this brand name is "Chinese Laundry".
I hear you but it's like pip said; everyone has different threshholds of tolerance. I'm not offended by the branding of Chinese Laundry to the point that I'm ready to picket the brand owners but I do think the choice of branding is a poor business decision and I personally think it's a dumb name. Had I the chance to speak directly to the owners and creators of the brand, as in they were in front of me right now, I would tell them so. But that's about it.
Totally my stance on it.
Yeah, me too: but Iris, this is the first time you've said that...

[iris]

Originally posted by haku@Apr 10 2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Apr 10 2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:47 PM
you know.
i find it really difficult to make myself care about the simple fact that this brand name is "Chinese Laundry".
I hear you but it's like pip said; everyone has different threshholds of tolerance. I'm not offended by the branding of Chinese Laundry to the point that I'm ready to picket the brand owners but I do think the choice of branding is a poor business decision and I personally think it's a dumb name. Had I the chance to speak directly to the owners and creators of the brand, as in they were in front of me right now, I would tell them so. But that's about it.
Totally my stance on it.
Yeah, me too: but Iris, this is the first time you've said that...
No it's not. My take has always been that I'm not offended by it, but it's a poor business decision. I'm a capitalistic American.

[kasia]

Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Apr 10 2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:47 PM
you know.
i find it really difficult to make myself care about the simple fact that this brand name is "Chinese Laundry".
I hear you but it's like pip said; everyone has different threshholds of tolerance. I'm not offended by the branding of Chinese Laundry to the point that I'm ready to picket the brand owners but I do think the choice of branding is a poor business decision and I personally think it's a dumb name. Had I the chance to speak directly to the owners and creators of the brand, as in they were in front of me right now, I would tell them so. But that's about it.
Totally my stance on it.
but why is it a poor business decision if there is nothing wrong with it? aside from the fact that some people may find it offensive? if there is nothing wrong with it, then the people who find it offensive are just being unreasonable, correct? thus, is it a poor business decision only because some unreasonable people may find it offensive?

and yes, haku, i was going to add you to apple's list. thanks for starting this topic.

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:33 PM
uh... to the best of my knowledge, that is not true.
i think i should find your statement offensive. :)
just kidding.
come to k-town. and san francisco chinatown, while you're at it. these people are not uneducated.

my paternal grandfather did not choose to be a waiter. he was an engineer in china. my maternal grandfather did not choose to be a janitor. he was a manager in hong kong.

of course they weren't literally forced into these professions, but they didn't have much of a choice. how limited must a person's options be before you decide that they were 'forced'? job discrimination, btw, was a lot more prevalent back then.
grandparents right?
but you said that it's still happening now.
i see it happening with new immigrants - mostly my clients. but i'm not going to name them.
I know what kasie is talking about. Not just Asian immigrants but a wide variety of immigrants. The ones I worked with were mainly refugees with political asylum visas. Many were medical doctors, nurses engineers and successful business people who were working as cleaning people because of difficulties with language and differences in business culture or systems. It was a major issue for a lot of us that volunteered there because we were college aged females assisting them with integration into the American workforce.

[iris]

Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Apr 10 2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:47 PM
you know.
i find it really difficult to make myself care about the simple fact that this brand name is "Chinese Laundry".
I hear you but it's like pip said; everyone has different threshholds of tolerance. I'm not offended by the branding of Chinese Laundry to the point that I'm ready to picket the brand owners but I do think the choice of branding is a poor business decision and I personally think it's a dumb name. Had I the chance to speak directly to the owners and creators of the brand, as in they were in front of me right now, I would tell them so. But that's about it.
Totally my stance on it.
but why is it a poor business decision if there is nothing wrong with it? aside from the fact that some people may find it offensive? if there is nothing wrong with it, then the people who find it offensive are just being unreasonable, correct? thus, is it a poor business decision only because some unreasonable people may find it offensive?

and yes, haku, i was going to add you to apple's list. thanks for starting this topic.
Because the thinking of the world is not uniform and being on the fence with a name like "Chinese Laundry" will isolate you from the more sensitive of the Asian population. If a business is willing to do that, then fine. Their choice to not make more money.

[kasia]

gotcha. so it's only a poor business decision not because it is offensive but because some people might take it the wrong way.

[haku]

Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Apr 10 2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Apr 10 2003, 12:47 PM
you know.
i find it really difficult to make myself care about the simple fact that this brand name is "Chinese Laundry".
I hear you but it's like pip said; everyone has different threshholds of tolerance. I'm not offended by the branding of Chinese Laundry to the point that I'm ready to picket the brand owners but I do think the choice of branding is a poor business decision and I personally think it's a dumb name. Had I the chance to speak directly to the owners and creators of the brand, as in they were in front of me right now, I would tell them so. But that's about it.
Totally my stance on it.
but why is it a poor business decision if there is nothing wrong with it? aside from the fact that some people may find it offensive? if there is nothing wrong with it, then the people who find it offensive are just being unreasonable, correct? thus, is it a poor business decision only because some unreasonable people may find it offensive?

and yes, haku, i was going to add you to apple's list. thanks for starting this topic.
Because the thinking of the world is not uniform and being on the fence with a name like "Chinese Laundry" will isolate you from the more sensitive of the Asian population. If a business is willing to do that, then fine. Their choice to not make more money.

So it's all about business and marketing, and it's still okay for a business to be insensitive about API issues, because overall, we won't make a stink about it unless you include a "chinky eyed cone-hatted caricature"? I mean, it could be a "good business decision" to be racist - i.e. let e-bay market highly desirable Nazi memoribilia, etc - but we consider that morally unacceptable. Are you saying that businesses are unbound by moral conventions?

Is that acceptable?

Or is it just that business would get bad for E-Bay from the outcry, threatened boycotts, etc? Limit their mass appeal?

Why not the same outcry when our history gets used?

[iris]

Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 03:13 PM
gotcha.  so it's only a poor business decision not because it is offensive but because some people might take it the wrong way.
A brand name that leads to no increase in sales because of a potentially volatile logo is my def. of a poor business decision.

[iris]

Originally posted by haku@Apr 10 2003, 03:14 PM
So it's all about business and marketing, and it's still okay for a business to be insensitive about API issues, because overall, we won't make a stink about it unless you include a "chinky eyed cone-hatted caricature"?

Is that acceptable?
Of course it's not Haku, but the world doesn't all think the way you do hence freedom of expression. What you find offensive doesn't mean other people might. You shouldn't expect the world to agree on issues all the time. Using an extreme analogy like that is asking so if someone puts "slavery is good" with a Black man on it, would you find that acceptable? Extremeties in debate will always get you the answer you want, just not the conviction.

[SunWuKong]

actually i think it's a poor marketting decision because it's not generic enough and it will isolate people's perception of them as a clothing brand even if they want to strike out outside of the clothing industry. and denoting any brand as "chinese" is a poor marketting decision anyway because the chinese population is extremely small in the US.

it's all about making money off white people. that's the american dream.

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 01:07 PM
but why is it a poor business decision if there is nothing wrong with it? aside from the fact that some people may find it offensive? if there is nothing wrong with it, then the people who find it offensive are just being unreasonable, correct? thus, is it a poor business decision only because some unreasonable people may find it offensive?

and yes, haku, i was going to add you to apple's list. thanks for starting this topic.
Well, I for one am not saying there is nothing wrong with it. I'm not embracing their choice to create a brand called Chinese Laundry and I harbor no negative or condescending feelings towards anyone that finds it offensive.

Solely from a business perspective, I think these people are idiots for not being savvy enough to understand a rudimentary marketing concept in a increasingly global marketplace regarding choosing a neutral brand name that isn't offensive to a potential market.

As someone with some Asian heritage in the US I personally would find them guilty of racial or ethnic insensitivityl. I'm not ready to brand them racist but rather just stupid. I guess I have a offense scale? This is on the lower end, Kung Fool was on the high end.

But please, don't reinterpret my words as judging other people as unreasonable for being offended. I just don't share the same level of offense over this particular issue.

[kasia]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Apr 10 2003, 01:19 PM
Well, I for one am not saying there is nothing wrong with it. I'm not embracing their choice to create a brand called Chinese Laundry and I harbor no negative or condescending feelings towards anyone that finds it offensive.

Solely from a business perspective, I think these people are idiots for not being savvy enough to understand a rudimentary marketing concept in a increasingly global marketplace regarding choosing a neutral brand name that isn't offensive to a potential market.

As someone with some Asian heritage in the US I personally would find them guilty of racial or ethnic insensitivityl. I'm not ready to brand them racist but rather just stupid. I guess I have a offense scale? This is on the lower end, Kung Fool was on the high end.

But please, don't reinterpret my words as judging other people as unreasonable for being offended. I just don't share the same level of offense over this particular issue.
no, i know. i figured. i was just trying to distinguish your perspective from iris', that's all.

[iris]

Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Apr 10 2003, 01:19 PM
Well, I for one am not saying there is nothing wrong with it. I'm not embracing their choice to create a brand called Chinese Laundry and I harbor no negative or condescending feelings towards anyone that finds it offensive.

Solely from a business perspective, I think these people are idiots for not being savvy enough to understand a rudimentary marketing concept in a increasingly global marketplace regarding choosing a neutral brand name that isn't offensive to a potential market.

As someone with some Asian heritage in the US I personally would find them guilty of racial or ethnic insensitivityl. I'm not ready to brand them racist but rather just stupid. I guess I have a offense scale? This is on the lower end, Kung Fool was on the high end.

But please, don't reinterpret my words as judging other people as unreasonable for being offended. I just don't share the same level of offense over this particular issue.
no, i know. i figured. i was just trying to distinguish your perspective from iris', that's all.
Actually I agree with HH.

The only place I differ is that I while believe the phrase is racially insensitive now, we also do much to perpetuate the continuing negativity of it by seeing it as shameful ourselves.

More power to people who are extremely offended by it and want to do something about. It's how changes occur. This is just my opinion on it.

[kasia]

Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 01:24 PM
The only place I differ is that I while believe the phrase is racially insensitive now, we also do much to perpetuate the continuing negativity of it by seeing it as shameful ourselves.

More power to people who are extremely offended by it and want to do something about. It's how changes occur. This is just my opinion on it.
i don't see it as shameful. i just see is as an act of oppression against my ancestors.

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Apr 10 2003, 01:19 PM
Well, I for one am not saying there is nothing wrong with it. I'm not embracing their choice to create a brand called Chinese Laundry and I harbor no negative or condescending feelings towards anyone that finds it offensive.

Solely from a business perspective, I think these people are idiots for not being savvy enough to understand a rudimentary marketing concept in a increasingly global marketplace regarding choosing a neutral brand name that isn't offensive to a potential market.

As someone with some Asian heritage in the US I personally would find them guilty of racial or ethnic insensitivityl. I'm not ready to brand them racist but rather just stupid. I guess I have a offense scale? This is on the lower end, Kung Fool was on the high end.

But please, don't reinterpret my words as judging other people as unreasonable for being offended. I just don't share the same level of offense over this particular issue.
no, i know. i figured. i was just trying to distinguish your perspective from iris', that's all.
Actually I agree with HH.

The only place I differ is that I while believe the phrase is racially insensitive now, we also do much to perpetuate the continuing negativity of it by seeing it as shameful ourselves.

More power to people who are extremely offended by it and want to do something about. It's how changes occur. This is just my opinion on it.
I don't think that it's shameful that Asians founded or pioneered an industry of commercial laundry that makes it racially insensitive but rather because the designs which are 'Asian inspired' use a name like Chinese Laundry. It's about on par for me as if it was named Geisha Girl.

I think I just created a brand name that would sell well.

Okay, I'm talking in circles now. Enough of my babble. Where's that hot guy thread?

[teaz0r]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Apr 11 2003, 04:19 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 01:07 PM
but why is it a poor business decision if there is nothing wrong with it?  aside from the fact that some people may find it offensive?  if there is nothing wrong with it, then the people who find it offensive are just being unreasonable, correct?  thus, is it a poor business decision only because some unreasonable people may find it offensive?

and yes, haku, i was going to add you to apple's list.  thanks for starting this topic.
Well, I for one am not saying there is nothing wrong with it. I'm not embracing their choice to create a brand called Chinese Laundry and I harbor no negative or condescending feelings towards anyone that finds it offensive.

Solely from a business perspective, I think these people are idiots for not being savvy enough to understand a rudimentary marketing concept in a increasingly global marketplace regarding choosing a neutral brand name that isn't offensive to a potential market.

As someone with some Asian heritage in the US I personally would find them guilty of racial or ethnic insensitivityl. I'm not ready to brand them racist but rather just stupid. I guess I have a offense scale? This is on the lower end, Kung Fool was on the high end.

But please, don't reinterpret my words as judging other people as unreasonable for being offended. I just don't share the same level of offense over this particular issue.
just to chime in semi productively.

i like how HH has worded her opinions. so i'm just gonna say i concur.
yeah it might have been a bad business decision and what not. it's like
i'm sure there are christians are offended by the brand imitation of christ (http://www.style.com/styleapps/Looks.run?p=style&type=MSD&event=F2003RTW_IMTATION&lstype=R).

i mean i'm christian and what not. and i own a whole bunch of shit from
that brand. and i don't think god's gonna send me into the arms of lucifer
because i'm wearing those clothes. some people say otherwise.

i lost my point. but yeah. stuff like insensitivity doesn't really bother me.

[iris]

Originally posted by kasia@Apr 10 2003, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 01:24 PM
The only place I differ is that I while believe the phrase is racially insensitive now, we also do much to perpetuate the continuing negativity of it by seeing it as shameful ourselves.

More power to people who are extremely offended by it and want to do something about. It's how changes occur. This is just my opinion on it.
i don't see it as shameful. i just see is as an act of oppression against my ancestors.
Understandble and not surprising that different words hold different meanings for everyone. I've said my piece so happy debating all. I'm with HH, time to move to the hot guys.

[haku]

Originally posted by tazadar@Apr 10 2003, 01:36 PM
I can see the historical reference of Chinese laundrymen with brand Chinese Laundry, but I just don't see the mockery of it as clear in A&F clothing to aspects of Chinese culture.
I'm not sure they're mocking either, like A&F, but I just don't know what they were thinking. It just seems insensitive. I mean, they weren't out to praise the hardworking chinese men who were forced into the laundry industry....

Basically, they just didn't have a clue, and there doesn't seem to be any business consequence because of it. The shoes are sold everywhere, in fact in SF's Union Square, just three blocks from Chinatown.

In fact, they seem to be a highly respected brand name.

Whatever.

Even if you take Iris's point about "good business decisions mean reaching the most people with your image/name" and not having anything to do with a cultural sensitivity, I'm still bothered by the fact that this brand does well, and there has never to my knowledge been any uproar about it.

To me, it says:
1) people don't know our history
2) people don't care
3) we don't take ourselves seriously enough, with enough pride, to use our voices and wallets to educate...thus perpetuating the opportunites for racism/insensitivity to rise again.

Of course, we're all busy...and have to place priorities. I mean, I have no intention of leading a boycott or some other campaign, but more power to anyone who does...

I'm just tired of the day to day dissing. Maybe that's why people "decide not to be offended", because once your sensitivity is opened, the world can grip you.

[kasia]

Originally posted by haku@Apr 10 2003, 01:58 PM
In fact, they seem to be a highly respected brand name.
nah. like i said, i worked in the shoe department at macy's throughout high school. chinese laundry is one of the cheaper lines. made more for teenage girls.

[rakovlam]

They're friggin' shoes. They're for walking, not for stomping the nearest Chinese guy. I don't see anyone whining about the French Connection (which by the way, markets clothes witl fcuk this and fcuk that).

And these are the same people who screams freedom of speech. whenever I object to comments made by certain reporters and congresswomen.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by tazadar@Apr 10 2003, 05:37 PM
The "Chinese Laundry" brand brings back memories of a painful past
it does? :confused:

i don't know if this is insensitive, but i don't really identify Chinese laundromats as part of "my" history, because i'm an immigrant. i identify more with other immigrants of the 80s and 90s.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by iris@Apr 10 2003, 01:03 PM
Totally my stance on it.
Mine too!

:ph34r:

[TyroneK(prettypretty)]

No one has explained that goddamn ninja smiley to me yet.

Anyways, I'm conflicted.

Well, I feel that the term "Chinese Laundry" by itself is not necessarily empowering. The way most nonasian people have used the term when thrown at me is a cutdown because it's meant as a reminder of our humble roots, our continuing marginalization in American society and their superior social and cultural status. It'd be one thing if an Asian-American were to use that term as the name for their clothing line, because that's very much expresses pride in our roots and the strides we've made so far. It's another thing when a white person does it because that expression of pride isn't there. It's like a demeaning stereotype meant for humor that trivializes what we've been through.

Additionally, I don't think it materially matters whether we're ashamed of the term "Chinese Laundry" or not. What really matters is what the person making that allusion intends to say. Just because you don't detect or feel an insult personally doesn't mean you're not being insulted. It just means you're secure or clueless. If the name is not meant as an insult, I can accept the term. At the same time, if they're being as cheeky as the A&F t-shirts, then I definitely think they're being racist.

At the same time, I can see how it's not truly offensive. It could just be a reference to the perceived exoticness of Asian culture. That brings the same beef we all have with orientalist perceptions of Asians in the west in general. We benefit in some ways, but we also get pigeonholed. Without learning more information about what the company tries to play itself of as and who it tries to market to, I can't make an informed judgment about the racist or harmless nature of the name.

We really need to get more cultivated and consciously progressive Asian-Americans started in these unconventional, yet influential sectors like fashion and entertainment. It's a powerful, if indirect, way of shaping the way Americans perceive us.

[haku]

Thanks VBKao, tazadar, achtungbaby, kasia, iris and others...

And to others just joining, scroll up to find my long post by Emil Guillermo, a brief summary of the history of Chinese Laundries, back in the day.

It's definitely not as blatantly offensive as A&F, and I remember there were even a few asians who said they were cool with that. Whatever, they're entitled to their opinions and needs to suck up and fit in or whatever.

I guess I was really offended the first time I saw the name on my catalog, but now it just feels wierd and icky. Iris explained that when she interviewed CL for a biz class, they said the name referred to the asian materials/designs the shoes first had. But I don't see how "Chinese Laundry" evokes that. It's something completely different.

It's also very peculiar that the FAQ's, etc. on the website don't address the unusual name. They were founded in 1982 (hmmm - the year Vincent Chin was murdered...), and I would bet that this is one of the most common questions. I would bet they are uncomfortable with answering these questions...

Iris and others also said it was a bad name for business reasons...yet the brand does very well. I mean, it's well placed in Macy's, which isn't Wal Mart, after all.

So messing around with "our" history (broadly speaking) doesn't seem to have business consequences. I am positing that it does in fact mess around with our history, because I see no evidence that they are somehow promoting API pride.

I mean, I can take pride in the immigrant story of struggle and survival, and draw lessons from the oppression they faced, but the two are not inseparable. And I'm not comfortable with the name being used in this way.

[enygma]

Originally posted by Tao@Apr 7 2003, 06:17 PM
psshhh....i've never even heard of that brand. what kind of a stupid ass name is that anyways. i'm not so offended ans I am amused that these ppl would name a brand name "chinese laundry". Frankly that's gonna kill your coolness before it ever catches on. i mean please, it's like naming womens wear "jewish bagel" or some shit. or "korean grocery", that's just plain dumb.


they should just call it, "white ass white dude"
actually, it's a rather well-known brand.