white men still outearn other group

[VV o n g B a]

some bad news and some good news. bad news first, whites men still earn more than anybody else. but the gap is closing, even if only slowly.

original link (http://www.salon.com/mwt/wire/2003/03/21/white_men/index.html)

White men still outearn other groups

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By GENARO C. ARMAS


March 21, 2003 | WASHINGTON (AP) -- Educational gaps between men and women and whites and blacks have narrowed in recent years, but this much has not changed: A highly educated white man still makes much more money than anyone else.

On average, a white man with a college diploma earned about $65,000 in 2001. Similarly educated white women made about 40 percent less, while black and Hispanic men earned 30 percent less, according to Census Bureau estimates being released Friday.

Almost half of Asian residents 25 and older have graduated from college, nearly twice the rate of whites. Still, Asians earned about 8 percent less than whites.

"There's a wedge between minority education gains and the payoff, and that's discrimination and the kinds of job opportunities available," said Jared Bernstein, an economist with the Economic Policy Institute, a labor-supported think tank.

There were similar disparities between white men and women on other educational levels. Income gaps have narrowed slightly since 1991 at the high school level and grown a bit at the college level.

Differences in income were slightly lower on other educational levels between white men and minorities. For instance, black men who are high school graduates earned about 25 percent less than comparably educated whites, and black men who held master's degrees earned 20 percent less than their white counterparts.

Looking back a decade, income gaps have edged up between whites and minorities. Historical data was not available for Asians.

"It doesn't do as much for closing gaps as it does to improving the floors that people are moving from," said demographer Roderick Harrison of the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, which studies issues of importance to minorities. "It's like catching up with a speeding train."

The figures come from the Census Bureau's annual look at educational achievement in America, culled from a survey in March 2002. The bureau recorded record high educational levels for nearly every group and the nation overall.

Nationally, 84 percent of U.S. residents 25 and older are high school graduates, the Census Bureau found. By gender, it was 83.8 percent for men and 84.4 percent for women.

Nearly 27 percent are college graduates - almost 29 percent of men and 25 percent of women.

The gap between men and women has been narrowing since the 1970s, largely due to younger, more educated women steadily replacing older, less-educated women in the work force, Census Bureau analyst Jennifer Day said.

For example, among 25- to 29-year-olds, nearly 32 percent of women have college diplomas, compared with 27 percent of men.

Whites, regardless of gender, remain more likely to be better educated than blacks and Hispanics. More than 29 percent of whites are college graduates, compared with 17 percent of blacks and about 11 percent of Hispanics, all record highs.

For blacks, disparities in high school graduation have narrowed dramatically with whites over the past 30 years. The college education gap has narrowed slightly between 1997 and 2002, but generally has increased since the 1970s.

Experts say that because whites typically make more money, that usually leads to more access to college.

Among Hispanics, the high school education gap with whites has remained level since 1970. Despite the record high, the college education gap between whites and Hispanics has grown during the 1990s in large part because of an increase in the number of less-educated Hispanic immigrants, Bernstein said.

Income disparities across educational levels were far lower among white women and other minorities. In fact, Asian women with bachelor's and master's degrees earned more money than similarly educated white women.

The federal government considers "Hispanic" to be an ethnicity instead of a race and people who are Hispanic can be of any race.

The most thorough historical data available in the report was for whites and blacks, regardless of Hispanic origin.

*edit, went back and bolded the lines pertaining to asians

[Craig]

These studies are also too generic. They don't underscore the difference in degrees. If they did, I am sure they would allude to the higher prevalence of Asians getting degrees in more practical, more difficult and higher paying fields. This would obviously skew the scale toward an even greater disparity than is currently being mentioned in the article.

[nudel]

so white men make more money. has anyone researched salary negotiation aggressiveness between men women and races. could it be a cultural problem that asians don't get paid the same. do some people just take the first offer. i find that white men are just more aggressive in everything and more arrogant/obnoxious. maybe they just push more for bigger starting salaries. maybe people just have to be dicks to get the big pay.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by nudel@Mar 21 2003, 11:37 AM
so white men make more money.  has anyone researched salary negotiation aggressiveness between men women and races.  could it be a cultural problem that asians don't get paid the same.  do some people just take the first offer.  i find that white men are just more aggressive in everything and more arrogant/obnoxious.  maybe they just push more for bigger starting salaries.  maybe people just have to be dicks to get the big pay.
that would mean that blacks are culturally less aggressive than whites and even asians.

[nudel]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Mar 21 2003, 08:55 AM
that would mean that blacks are culturally less aggressive than whites and even asians.
as these reports on income are usually not based on sound statistics, my post is extremely general. the point is, stop looking at the bottom line. find out why, other than blaming it on some form of racism or making it into some salary war.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by nudel@Mar 21 2003, 12:01 PM
as these reports on income are usually not based on sound statistics, my post is extremely general. the point is, stop looking at the bottom line. find out why, other than blaming it on some form of racism or making it into some salary war.
what if it is racism?

[nudel]

what if it is racism, don't have an answer for that
i just don't want people getting a skewed salary just because they are somebody in the lesser category. some jerk highering manager who decides to be pc, "oh your asian, looks like asians get 8% less than white males, we'll start all asians 8% more than white males automatically regardless of skill, just to make up for our past failures." i don't want anyone to get a free ride in anything, even if they are from an economically disadvantaged group or historically disadvantaged. thats my stance, and i'll stick with it.

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by nudel@Mar 21 2003, 11:13 AM
what if it is racism, don't have an answer for that
i just don't want people getting a skewed salary just because they are somebody in the lesser category. some jerk highering manager who decides to be pc, "oh your asian, looks like asians get 8% less than white males, we'll start all asians 8% more than white males automatically regardless of skill, just to make up for our past failures." i don't want anyone to get a free ride in anything, even if they are from an economically disadvantaged group or historically disadvantaged. thats my stance, and i'll stick with it.
i agree with that. but i find it unlikely companies would do any such thing.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by nudel@Mar 21 2003, 12:13 PM
what if it is racism, don't have an answer for that
i just don't want people getting a skewed salary just because they are somebody in the lesser category. some jerk highering manager who decides to be pc, "oh your asian, looks like asians get 8% less than white males, we'll start all asians 8% more than white males automatically regardless of skill, just to make up for our past failures." i don't want anyone to get a free ride in anything, even if they are from an economically disadvantaged group or historically disadvantaged. thats my stance, and i'll stick with it.
i don't think anybody has even suggested that private companies do something like that.
i have no doubt that many white people do not realise there's such a discrepancy between salary amounts. it's good to let people know.

[nudel]

i like to think that i'm a scientist. until i read the info gathering and processing methods to get these numbers, i won't be concerned. give my a hypothesis, theory, data, repeatability etc etc etc, anything. i feel i'm some leftover of the 50s, work hard and you will be rewarded.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by nudel@Mar 21 2003, 12:21 PM
i feel i'm some leftover of the 50s, work hard and you will be rewarded.
eh. the world doesn't work like that. work smart, and you'll be rewarded. work hard, and you'll be working hard all your life.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by nudel@Mar 21 2003, 12:21 PM
i like to think that i'm a scientist. until i read the info gathering and processing methods to get these numbers, i won't be concerned. give my a hypothesis, theory, data, repeatability etc etc etc, anything.
so i guess you don't want to trust the census bureau. which really throws out your certainty about pretty much all official figures in the US, things like how many people are actually living in the US, what's the average reported household income, etc etc etc.

[nudel]

have you filled that piece of garbage out. its so general. i'm talking real stats. like when your trying to find the odds of life being present on other planets. many many variables and only compare like variables. not just race gender and salary.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by nudel@Mar 21 2003, 12:30 PM
have you filled that piece of garbage out. its so general. i'm talking real stats. like when your trying to find the odds of life being present on other planets. many many variables and only compare like variables. not just race gender and salary.
hey, it's always going to be an approximation. if you don't want to believe in the truth behind the census' numbers unless they take into consideration what toothpaste people use and what color underwear they wear, then that's your choice i guess. for me, i have enough faith in the census' statisticians.

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by nudel@Mar 21 2003, 11:30 AM
have you filled that piece of garbage out. its so general. i'm talking real stats. like when your trying to find the odds of life being present on other planets. many many variables and only compare like variables.
oh please. just b/c they have more variables hardly makes it more reliable. the numbers they put in that "odds of life" equation are guestimates based on evidence which changes every freaking month.

an example here. physicists still have little to no idea about how the universe will end. first it was: big crunch or little whimper or stasis. then it was: accelerated little whimper. next it was: accelerated big crunch. now its: super accelerated whimper.

in other words, they're just guessing based on the best evidence they have. but since their data changes all the time, none of their predictions stick.

[nudel]

Originally posted by VV o n g B a@Mar 21 2003, 09:51 AM
oh please. just b/c they have more variables hardly makes it more reliable. the numbers they put in that "odds of life" equation are guestimates based on evidence which changes every freaking month.

an example here. physicists still have little to no idea about how the universe will end. first it was: big crunch or little whimper or stasis. then it was: accelerated little whimper. next it was: accelerated big crunch. now its: super accelerated whimper.

in other words, they're just guessing based on the best evidence they have. but since their data changes all the time, none of their predictions stick.
its not the quantity of variables, its the quality of them. do you think i want salary comparisons to equal the complexity of the expansion of the universe? shitty stats will always be shitty when the methods are shitty.

[angel nympho]

These are averages. Duh, white guys are gonna come out on top. Look at the richest men in America. They're all white and are being added into the averages. The gap between the richest men in America and "average" households is HUGE... no WONDER they come out on top.

[lethal]

^ The richest people in America constitute like .00000001% of the white male population. They're not going to lead to a 8% difference in salary.

What the study is trying to say is that some random white male college graduate makes more than some asian male college graduate and some white female college graduate and some black female college graduate, etc...

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by nudel@Mar 21 2003, 11:59 AM
its not the quantity of variables, its the quality of them. do you think i want salary comparisons to equal the complexity of the expansion of the universe? shitty stats will always be shitty when the methods are shitty.
that was part of my point. the quality of information gathered by current tech is nice but it will not be the last word as better instruments are being built everyday. therefore our stats on the universe where we can't account for 90% of the mass makes your statement of shitty methods a very apt quote.

our methods of accounting and measuring statistics in the universe are shitty. plain and simple.

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by lethalweapon@Mar 21 2003, 12:11 PM
^ The richest people in America constitute like .00000001% of the white male population. They're not going to lead to a 8% difference in salary.

What the study is trying to say is that some random white male college graduate makes more than some asian male college graduate and some white female college graduate and some black female college graduate, etc...
even discounting what lethal has said here, why isn't there a population of super mega rich minorities to give minorities their own salary scale booster?

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by lethalweapon@Mar 21 2003, 06:11 PM
^ The richest people in America constitute like .00000001% of the white male population. They're not going to lead to a 8% difference in salary.

What the study is trying to say is that some random white male college graduate makes more than some asian male college graduate and some white female college graduate and some black female college graduate, etc...
Doesn't matter. When you have a bunch of people in the 100,000-40,000 range and still toss in ONE 3.8 billion dollar guy... it's gonna make a LITTLE difference. If the people in those top .00000001% are rich ENOUGH, it still matters. Some of the richest (and some of the poorest) men in America are WHITE.

I KNOW what the study is TRYING to say.. It's just my opinion that it's not clear enough.

[DaBestSpooner]

remember this is america people

according to 20/20's segment on millionaires:

-the world's richest people are the saudi arabians who rake in like 37 million a day
-Hong Kong has more millionaires than any other place in the world, and its the size of manhattan

[DaBestSpooner]

my bad, US has the most billionaires

http://www.forbes.com/home/2002/02/28/bill...llionaires.html (http://www.forbes.com/home/2002/02/28/billionaires.html)

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 21 2003, 10:40 PM
There are three kinds of averages: mean, medium, mode. You are talking about the arithmetic mean, which would be erroneous in finding the "center" in this case. I am pretty sure the statistians excluded outliers (billionaires and millionaires) from the survey.
Statistics can prove or disprove ANYTHING you want them to. It's all a matter of what they include, what they exclude, and what the percent error is. That's why I never trust statistics. We tried it out in my stats class. We proved all kinds of bullshit theories.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Almost half of Asian residents 25 and older have graduated from college, nearly twice the rate of whites. Still, Asians earned about 8 percent less than whites.

"There's a wedge between minority education gains and the payoff, and that's discrimination and the kinds of job opportunities available," said Jared Bernstein, an economist with the Economic Policy Institute, a labor-supported think tank.

Mr. Bernstein is forgetting to take into account the high proportion of Asians degree holders who immigrate to the United States but can't be in any field except retail because of poor English and their qualifications not being up to standards, this is probably a greater skew factor than racial problems.

Also to a certain extent, the study compares apples to oranges. There is the fact that Asians are more likely to go for traditionally higher-earning BS or BBA degree, but also in the reverse direction there are plenty of immigrants from foreign countries who hold degrees which, though they say the same thing on paper as a US degree, in reality don't represent the same level of qualification or skill as the equivalent US degree. The most obvious example being in medicine.