Thin Blood

[kimpossible]

Do you think the notion of Asian blood being 'thinned out' by outmarriage scares most Asian Americans?

[BeTheReds]

I don't think that it scares most of them, but maybe a good 30% or so. I don't think that there is any reason to be scared. It is certainly possible to transmit culture when blood is not transmitted.

If you really don't like race mixing, then do your part to prevent it from happening in your own life, and guide your children too.

[kimpossible]

I just want to make it clear that if you're a full blooded Asian and fear backlash for being honest - don't. I'll mod this thread closely. Just as long as you respect the people here it's okay if you don't have the politically correct answer.

[deez nuts]

call me unasian (especially un-chinese) but retaining my chinese roots and culture is prolly the last thing on my mind when i go into a marriage. would i like my children to be able to read, speak and write chinese? sure. would i like to retain some aspects of my familial upbringing and culture? of course. but, it's definitely not a top priority for me. sue me. i will prolly adopt a "if it happens, it happens mentality."

besides, i don't even want kids to be honest.

so no, the notion of my chinese blood thinning (both culture and "asian-ness) doesn't scare me or bother me.

and to be honest a lot of my relatives (both old and young) over in china and taiwan don't really care about me keeping it real over here in the US, either.

[SunWuKong]

blood thinning doesn't bother me. but culture thinning probably would. at this point, i currently think it's very important to me to retain and pass on my culture to my children. maybe i'll change my mind in the future. who knows. but i'd rather marry a brit girl who grew up in HK than an ABC who doesn't speak chinese.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Mar 16 2003, 08:04 PM
If you really don't like race mixing, then do your part to prevent it from happening in your own life, and guide your children too.
Also, don't move to a country where Asians are a tiny minority. AAs who decide they're against miscegenation are the only people who might actually deserve a "go back to Asia!" every once in a while; if only because it's nuts to think a group as much in the minority as Asians are in America won't marry members of the majority culture they're constantly surrounded by.

[Hiroshi2]

I think it scares most asians because there aren't many of 'em (or us or whatever, that's a whole other debate altogether) in the first place. And maybe asians don't want to "die out" or assimilate into the mainstream like the italians and the irish did eariler, or don't want to be forgotten like the native americans.

Or maybe not. I really can't speak for anyone but myself, just trying to make some obseravtions or whatever.

[SunWuKong]

actually i would like to ask if any mixed asians here is afraid of further thinning their asian blood in their family. i know that might sound ironic and i also hope nobody take offense to that. but i think it's a good question.

[Green_Circle]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Mar 17 2003, 03:46 AM
Also, don't move to a country where Asians are a tiny minority. AAs who decide they're against miscegenation are the only people who might actually deserve a "go back to Asia!" every once in a while; if only because it's nuts to think a group as much in the minority as Asians are in America won't marry members of the majority culture they're constantly surrounded by.
I once met a White Russian lady who was born and raised in Shanghai. I was amazed because she couldn't speak a lick of Chinese and said she didn't have to because she only frequented areas where Whites were. These folks pretty much kept it real among themselves hardly ever intermarrying with the native Chinese.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Mar 17 2003, 05:15 AM
actually i would like to ask if any mixed asians here is afraid of further thinning their asian blood in their family. i know that might sound ironic and i also hope nobody take offense to that. but i think it's a good question.
Raises hand!

Yes I am somewhat fearful of this. I know that if I have a 3/4th white kid, and raise him in the USA then most likely he will turn out marrying white, thus creating a 7/8 white kid.

At the same time tho, if I were to marry Korean and my 3/4 Korean kid were to marry white, I'd feel like all my effort had been wasted.

Haha.

No, I'm not really worried about it too much, my brothers are both gonna go white, I know it. And more power to them if that's what they want.

As for my family tho, there are other branches of it with plenty of asian blood, so i am not worried about possible thinning. I am mostly worried that if my father dies, I will lose touch with my relatives in Korea.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Mar 17 2003, 02:09 AM
As for my family tho, there are other branches of it with plenty of asian blood, so i am not worried about possible thinning. I am mostly worried that if my father dies, I will lose touch with my relatives in Korea.
ever thought of teaching in korea instead of japan?

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Mar 17 2003, 02:09 AM
At the same time tho, if I were to marry Korean and my 3/4 Korean kid were to marry white, I'd feel like all my effort had been wasted.
haha i always felt the same way. if i marry a white girl there is no way in hell our kids would learn Chinese. so I'd feel like all my effort learning chinese was a complete waste. maybe if I married some British girl in HK. but then, once our kids finished learning Chinese they'd still be accused to be Asiaphiles.

hell i'm not even really sure I want my kids to grow up in the US.

basically the trouble is whoever I marry, my kid will look like the member of their ethnic group. white, latino, arab. black, not so much maybe. oh yeah and not indian. last night i had a long drunken conversation with an indian girl who was so sad that when Indians marry out their kids lose all their Indian appearance.

[thaite]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Mar 16 2003, 10:15 PM
actually i would like to ask if any mixed asians here is afraid of further thinning their asian blood in their family.
I am. In fact, I'll take that even further and say that I'm pretty afraid of my kids being the cultureless fishsticks-and-jello-eating whitebread America that drives me nuts. If I don't marry Asian or another Hapa I'd prefer a Latina or someone who still has connection to their ethnic roots.

One of my favorite girlfriends was half white, half Mexican.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I don't worry about keeping it real or whatever. If I were to be worried, it would be for the sake of Chinese blood anyways, and in the whole scheme of things there are plenty of people in that big-ass country across the ocean to do that job for me. Chinese blood will not really suffer or 'thin out' (at least not in any way that would be even considered or thought of as significant) if I decide to marry and have kids with a white girl or black girl or Japanese girl or whatever. If every Chinese guy in the world thought the same way then we might be screwed but the fact is they don't. Chinese people in China marry and breed with other Chinese people not just out of preference or ignorance but also because of lack of options (not the same situation here in the US). Not to mention that there technically is no Chinese blood that is homogenous and identical and exclusive to all Chinese, the Chinese gene pool is a lot more diverse than say the Korean or Japanese gene pool, so perhaps we are talking more in terms of the fear of 'cultural thinning' instead of 'blood thinning'.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by thaite@Mar 17 2003, 12:43 AM
In fact, I'll take that even further and say that I'm pretty afraid of my kids being the cultureless fishsticks-and-jello-eating whitebread America that drives me nuts.
I love fishsticks and jello.

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Mar 16 2003, 09:15 PM
actually i would like to ask if any mixed asians here is afraid of further thinning their asian blood in their family. i know that might sound ironic and i also hope nobody take offense to that. but i think it's a good question.
Although I'm not too concerned about cultural thinning or blood thinning per se ('cuz I'm not very Japanese) the thought that I could have given birth to blonde/blue freaks me out. But that's only because that's not what I am. I'd be like... who's white baby is that? Mine? On the other hand I wonder how I'm going to feel if our kids turn out looking 100% Asian. Maybe I'll feel like a foreign exchange student or foreign nanny in my own family.

I do feel a bit of unease that my destiny, my identity and progeny have such a strong Chinese identity. It's an extremely strong identity and I'm sure gender and race have a good deal to do with it, but I find that sometimes I feel like I have to be a little rebellious in order to feel I'm not being swallowed up by an identity and culture that really isn't mine.

Good question.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Mar 17 2003, 03:32 AM
maybe if I married some British girl in HK. but then, once our kids finished learning Chinese they'd still be accused to be Asiaphiles.
bah. that'll only happen if your kids live in the states. i don't think i've met anybody that came from outside the states that know what an asiaphile is.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Mar 17 2003, 04:20 AM
Not to mention that there technically is no Chinese blood that is homogenous and identical and exclusive to all Chinese, the Chinese gene pool is a lot more diverse than say the Korean or Japanese gene pool, so perhaps we are talking more in terms of the fear of 'cultural thinning' instead of 'blood thinning'.
good point.
and you could even take it a step further and apply it to culture. there are many regional cultures in china, and many different dialects.

[SunWuKong]

actually, i'd want to make sure that my kids have an abundance of western as well as chinese culture in their upbringing. if i raised them in asia, i'm definitely sending them to international school. i might even go as far as to speak mostly english in the home - but that's probably not necessary if they attend international school. it's good to be, as pip would call it, "third-culture".

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Mar 17 2003, 08:36 AM
Although I'm not too concerned about cultural thinning or blood thinning per se ('cuz I'm not very Japanese) the thought that I could have given birth to blonde/blue freaks me out. But that's only because that's not what I am. I'd be like... who's white baby is that? Mine? On the other hand I wonder how I'm going to feel if our kids turn out looking 100% Asian. Maybe I'll feel like a foreign exchange student or foreign nanny in my own family.
*Ahem*

You know, when I was born I had blonde hair and blue eyes... But I wasn't a freak! I think it's interesting that you're having a lot of the same worries that monoracial people in interracial relationships have ("What about the children?!"). I'm always amazed at how people think I only look Asian (or some other hapas only look White) - when I look in the mirror I can see my mother's and my father's (or their family members') features very well represented. Hopefully, whatever your children look like, you will feel you're all a part of the weird little cultural bubble your family has created and not worry so much about what other people think.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Mar 17 2003, 09:36 AM
I do feel a bit of unease that my destiny, my identity and progeny have such a strong Chinese identity. It's an extremely strong identity and I'm sure gender and race have a good deal to do with it, but I find that sometimes I feel like I have to be a little rebellious in order to feel I'm not being swallowed up by an identity and culture that really isn't mine.
you know, fobby people that don't live in cities like SF or NYC probably feel the same about american culture.

but it's interesting that you feel that way about chinese culture while you're living in the states. :P

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 17 2003, 10:47 AM
The "thinning" of Asian blood concerns me when it comes to the effect it has on the voice of Asian America on political and racial issues. There is a lesser concern for intermixed Asian to give a damn about Asian American issues than a "full-blooded" Asian. As exemplify with hapas that can pass for white will only identify with being white. Contrasting the recent Coble and Moran instances and it's clear Asian America has a long ways to go. It doesn't help when Asians that do have a bigger voice to mainstream America are the ones doing a detriment for us like Secretary of Labor Elaine Chao. These people pander to the status quo, since it is the "white" power structure that give them the avenue to their position of power. In this case, it's clearly selling out. Am I to say out-marriages are selling out? It's too complex of a question to say, but certainly doesn't help in strengthening Asian America.
Don't you think, however, that the "lesser concern for intermixed Asian to give a damn about Asian American issues" comes mostly from AAs? I think that if outmarriage really is weakening Asian America's identity, most of the blame falls on AAs who shun the people in those relationships; in my opinion one Asian marrying out does not weaken AA unity nearly as much as one Asian who dismisses all mixed Asians or Asians in interracial relationships. It always annoys the hell out of me to hear AA activists talk about the importance of Asian unity and then in the same breath scold or denigrate Asians who marry out - ostensibly the very people they're trying to 'save'.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Mar 17 2003, 03:23 PM
Don't you think, however, that the "lesser concern for intermixed Asian to give a damn about Asian American issues" comes mostly from AAs? I think that if outmarriage really is weakening Asian America's identity, most of the blame falls on AAs who shun the people in those relationships; in my opinion one Asian marrying out does not weaken AA unity nearly as much as one Asian who dismisses all mixed Asians or Asians in interracial relationships. It always annoys the hell out of me to hear AA activists talk about the importance of Asian unity and then in the same breath scold or denigrate Asians who marry out - ostensibly the very people they're trying to 'save'.
i don't think people who are seriously politically conscious would be childish enough to do that. but then again i am not mixed and i have not experienced that kind of discrimination, so maybe i'm just talking out of my ass. at the same time, i see that most mixed asians just usually overwhelmingly identify themselves with whites as opposed to asians.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 17 2003, 03:09 PM
I am not going to rehash this unity discussion. We know how that ended.
Yes. It ended with you exhibiting a lot of the behavior I just described.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 17 2003, 03:37 PM
That's not the truth, is it? Maybe, I don't have your perspective and I like for you to explain it for me if possible.
Well, for one thing you're bringing up political stuff like Coble and Chao in a discussion that was primarily about Asian/Asian American culture and language. There's billions of people in the world that identify as culturally or racially Asian; what you're talking about is political identity, and I think it's pretty dumb to tie the two together. Just because a whole bunch of AAs don't think alike on a political matter like Coble doesn't mean they're not culturally Asian, which is what I infer from comments like "These people pander to the status quo, since it is the "white" power structure that give them the avenue to their position of power. In this case, it's clearly selling out."

[Hiroshi2]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Mar 16 2003, 11:15 PM
actually i would like to ask if any mixed asians here is afraid of further thinning their asian blood in their family. i know that might sound ironic and i also hope nobody take offense to that. but i think it's a good question.
I haven't given this too much thought. Mostly because I feel very distant with my mom's family anyway. I don't remember meeting them, even if I did meet my grandma, I couldn't talk to her- we don't speak the same language.

What I have thought about is what if I were to thin out both "bloods" (i.e. marry white or anyone else not black or asian) What would that be like???

Both scenarios don't seem very likely, but I'm just speculating and rambling right now.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 18 2003, 12:06 AM


Here's why it's selling out if you are Asian and think comments like Coble is not wrong. Saying that internment camps for JAs was justified you are supporting an agenda that deny the rights of American citizenship and oppression of your own race. That's a sell-out.

Why Elaine Chao is a sell-out? She a damn model minority poster child. The model minority myth is used to wedge Asians against other minority groups.


I don't think that's selling out, it's simply having a different viewpoint. I suppose I wouldn't understand if any JAs thought Coble was not wrong, but you have to agree, that at the time of the internment, many JApanese, and Chinese Americans were not very opposed to the idea of it. Japanese Americans are not my race. I suppose it depends on how inclusive you want to get. I find it strange that anyone would think that Coble's comments were okay, but I souldn't call an Asian a sell out simply because he thinks it is okay.

I don't know who Elaine Chao is, but I don't think she is a sellout either. Just because she fits the guidelines of the model minority myth is no reason to crucify her. If you're going to get mad at her for fitting some stereotype, then you should also get mad at all the Asian kids flooding the UC system, and all the Asian kids who are in 3rd grade doing pre-calc.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Mar 17 2003, 04:27 PM
all the Asian kids who are in 3rd grade doing pre-calc.
Those kids need to be shot

or at least get beat up a few times........

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Why Elaine Chao is a sell-out? She a damn model minority poster child. The model minority myth is used to wedge Asians against other minority groups.

So basically, you want to define her outta the community cuz you don't agree with her views and her lifestyle. Of course your standards for that judgment have nothing to do with Asian culture itself, just some arbitrary litmus test.

But don't worry, that's the Asian-American way.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 17 2003, 06:06 PM
YuheiCarreau,

Well, for one thing you're bringing up political stuff like Coble and Chao in a discussion that was primarily about Asian/Asian American culture and language.

I don't think my English and comprehension is that bad. HH's question, "Do you think the notion of Asian blood being 'thinned out' by outmarriage scares most Asian Americans?" This question is about Asian/Asian American culture and language? So, the question doesn't cover political and racial issues? I am confused. I just don't see how.
Yes, as far as I can tell AAs worrying about their blood (or heritage, which blood is often used as a synonym for) has nothing at all to do with Coble's remarks about the Japanese internment OR Elaine Chao.


There's billions of people in the world that identify as culturally or racially Asian; what you're talking about is political identity, and I think it's pretty dumb to tie the two together.

Yes, I know that billions of Asians in the world, but we are talking about Asians in America.
I may not have stated it clearly enough, but my point was Asian culture is something a number of people willingly identify with because it's something they've inherited, while a political viewpoint is largely based on your opinions, not your ancestral language, cooking, art, music, literature, etc. Two people can have completely different politics but share a culture, and I think it's a mistake for you to say that because AAs don't share the same opinions they're out of contact with their heritage.

Just because a whole bunch of AAs don't think alike on a political matter like Coble doesn't mean they're not culturally Asian, which is what I infer from comments like "These people pander to the status quo, since it is the "white" power structure that give them the avenue to their position of power. In this case, it's clearly selling out."

Here's why it's selling out if you are Asian and think comments like Coble is not wrong. Saying that internment camps for JAs was justified you are supporting an agenda that deny the rights of American citizenship and oppression of your own race. That's a sell-out.

Why Elaine Chao is a sell-out? She a damn model minority poster child. The model minority myth is used to wedge Asians against other minority groups.

I was using this as example of selling out, because every freaking time I talk about IR people think I have something against it.
Again, I think you're linking politics to culture in a way that doesn't make sense. I don't really disagree that AAs who agree with Coble are fools, but that doesn't mean they've suddenly renounced their Asian-ness. Communism (or something like it) is the current political system in China; if a Chinese person objects to communism, does he suddenly stop being Chinese? As far as I know, China has never been democratic the way the US has, but that doesn't mean that all the ABCs I know who vote are less Chinese because of it. If politics and culture were the same thing, they wouldn't each have their own words.

And if you're annoyed about people thinking you have something against interracial dating, maybe you should rethink how you phrase statements like "Am I to say out-marriages are selling out? It's too complex of a question to say, but certainly doesn't help in strengthening Asian America."

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 17 2003, 08:53 AM
Well thank you, HH. It's almost as you are inviting me to post. I want to make a disclaimer. Since, himuro-dono made accusation of me calling for all whites must die but this did not bother me as much as one of yw poster asked me the question, "do I hate white people." It was a shock to me coming from her. So, I want to say that I DO NOT hate white people.
Huh. I must've missed that one. Was HD joking or the other person? You might think this is strange coming from me but it wouldn't really trouble me in the least if you did hate white people.

Shucks. Looks like I missed some juicy forum drama though.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Mar 17 2003, 08:04 PM
But don't worry, that's the Asian-American way.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! NICE ONE!!! I LOVE IT!!! I'M ALSO DRUNK!!!

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Mar 17 2003, 05:08 PM
And if you're annoyed about people thinking you have something against interracial dating, maybe you should rethink how you phrase statements like "Am I to say out-marriages are selling out? It's too complex of a question to say, but certainly doesn't help in strengthening Asian America."
Well I don't think he exactly said he was troubled that people thought he had something against interracial dating, rather that they thought he had something against white people. Which, you know, the guy has a right to if he does.

And if I played devil's advocate a bit further, who says he has to feel okay about mixed race Asians? I think tazadar is far from a minority in his opinion on mixed blood Asians or outmarriage. I think he's just being honest. If anything he's giving us a look into a point of view that while discouraging for us when you look at it initially, at least gives us a chance to address it.

Look over the threads we have here. Most of us, if not every single one of us has felt discrimination from Asians at some point in time, though we're different ratios and races from one another.

However, don't stop arguing your point of view. I think we're digging up some interesting stuff. :)

[SunWuKong]

i have no problem with mixed people!
i lust mixed girls! especially if they speak chinese!

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Mar 17 2003, 06:44 PM
i have no problem with mixed people!
i lust mixed girls! especially if they speak chinese!
Yes, thank you dear. Behave now.

[golden_buns]

It makes me wonder though. How long do you guys think we'll be able to hold asian culture. I mean, cuz I can't stop noticing that the loss of culture happens even on the 1st generation.

Also even if we did inter-marry among asians, but say of different nationality, I'm sure english would be the 1st language at home, and with which culture would the kids identify with?

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by golden_buns@Mar 17 2003, 09:51 PM
It makes me wonder though. How long do you guys think we'll be able to hold asian culture. I mean, cuz I can't stop noticing that the loss of culture happens even on the 1st generation.

Also even if we did inter-marry among asians, but say of different nationality, I'm sure english would be the 1st language at home, and with which culture would the kids identify with?
i think there is gonna be a gradual lost of culture no matter what from generation to generation if you live in the US. i mean not to sound condescending, callous or as an attack. but the way i look at it is if i was really that concerned in preserving the chinese culture in my kids, i would raise them in china or taiwan. you know? america isn't really gonna be optimal for this purpose. this is just my opinion.

i don't intend on moving to china or taiwan anytime soon, so i'll just deal with it either way.

speaking in regards to me. what is chinese culture? i mean for me it's just a short list of what my parents taught me, how they raised me i.e. respect for elders, humility, etc etc ect. what i learned in school in taiwan before i came to the us which is basically how to read, write and speak chinese. anything else such as history i forgot and have no interest in learning again. news and politics i pick up from browsing the world journal (shi jia xi bo), liberty times (zhi yu xi bo) and ming bo.

for me it's just not really a big deal. if it was i would raise my kids back in the mother land or the mother island.

/puts on flame suit/

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by golden_buns@Mar 17 2003, 09:51 PM
It makes me wonder though. How long do you guys think we'll be able to hold asian culture. I mean, cuz I can't stop noticing that the loss of culture happens even on the 1st generation.

holding on to culture isn't really related to time in the country, but to acceptance by the mainstream and a lack of strong community institutions which get ahold of the kids at a young age - namely schools. 5th and 6th generation Malaysian Chinese still speak perfect Chinese, the key to that wasn't criticizing outmarriage or complaining about outside society's discrimination, the key to that was the independent school system teaching in Chinese, which resulted in generation after generation of Malaysian-born Chinese kids growing up speaking Chinese to each other.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Mar 17 2003, 08:38 PM
And if I played devil's advocate a bit further, who says he has to feel okay about mixed race Asians? I think tazadar is far from a minority in his opinion on mixed blood Asians or outmarriage. I think he's just being honest. If anything he's giving us a look into a point of view that while discouraging for us when you look at it initially, at least gives us a chance to address it.
I don't think Tazadar is coming out against mixed Asians as much as he's just saying that an AA, regardless of whether he's mixed or not, should adhere to a specific political philosophy or be considered un-Asian or a sellout. This whole idea that your race should determine your politics is what bothers me, not any statements about mixed Asians themselves; IMO he has been looking at the issue only as it applies to monoracials, not people who are already mixed.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 18 2003, 10:18 AM
Sure others like SWK concerns about "thinning" Asian blood with lost of culture.
hey! i never said i was worried about blood thinning. i'm worried about culture thinning. should my kids be mixed, i have no doubt that i can provide them with a lifestyle that is filled with chinese cultural values and raise them to be comfortable with chinese culture and language.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 18 2003, 10:34 AM
I can understand why hapas take my views personally. It's like I am against your existence. I am just stating the truth. If Asians intermixed into the white majority and the offsprings that are racially white have the tendency not to care about the AA community as much.
The reason behind that, though, is just the small-mindedness and lack of any greater binding force than racial separatism and racial cliquishness among AA "community". In malaysia we don't worry about outmarriage breaking the community cuz we know that, even when a mixed-race kid is born and has "thinned out blood," he'll still grow up caring about the community because the community provides him with a culture, a language, and a way of life. The culture of who you expect would be the most natural peers to hapas, the 2nd-generation born-in-USA AAs, has absolutely nothing on that scale to offer hapas, so of course we don't really care about whether that culture lives or dies.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Mar 18 2003, 12:24 PM
The reason behind that, though, is just the small-mindedness and lack of any greater binding force than racial separatism and racial cliquishness among AA "community". In malaysia we don't worry about outmarriage breaking the community cuz we know that, even when a mixed-race kid is born and has "thinned out blood," he'll still grow up caring about the community because the community provides him with a culture, a language, and a way of life. The culture of who you expect would be the most natural peers to hapas, the 2nd-generation born-in-USA AAs, has absolutely nothing on that scale to offer hapas, so of course we don't really care about whether that culture lives or dies.
you don't think that it's also partly due to the fact that it probably makes life easier to identify as part of the majority (white) instead of part of the minority (asian)? chinese people in southeast asian countries have a strong tradition of being rooted in chinese culture, but that is not so in the US for asian people in general. even many "full blooded" 2nd+ generation asian americans have a tendency not to care about the asian american community as much, as their families add on more american generations, i can only imagine that this phenomenum would be even more prevalent amongst mixed asians.

disclaimer: i am not against interracial marriages - finding your own happiness in terms of who you marry, in my opinion, is way more important than preventing a dilution of a united asian american "voice".

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 18 2003, 09:18 AM
You know what? This discussion is trying for me, because you do not understand the words I am conveying to you.

Sure others like SWK concerns about "thinning" Asian blood with lost of culture. But, I am concern with the lost of AA political voice from out-marriage. Thus, it's within the bounds of HH's question. Is it not?
No, because you brought up Howard Coble as an example, and he has made no comments whatsoever on the issue of mixed race marriages (the subject of HH's initial question); and although you mentioned Elaine Chao, you did not mention her marriage but your opinion that she is playing up to White stereotypes of Asians in her behavior and in her politics. Not all the AAs who support or are indifferent to Coble are mixed or in mixed relationships; not all AAs in mixed relationships support Coble. Equating those AAs you see as pandering to the White majority culture with AAs in mixed marriages is a mistake, because the two groups do not always have the same motivations.

I may not have stated it clearly enough, but my point was Asian culture is something a number of people willingly identify with because it's something they've inherited, while a political viewpoint is largely based on your opinions, not your ancestral language, cooking, art, music, literature, etc. Two people can have completely different politics but share a culture, and I think it's a mistake for you to say that because AAs don't share the same opinions they're out of contact with their heritage.

Strange, I have not said anything remotely like that. Here I'll state it for you. You are - ethnically - Asian can have a different political stances but still - culturally - Asian. Some of "your" (not you) political stances hurt AAs community and that's what I am saying.

Again, I think you're linking politics to culture in a way that doesn't make sense. I don't really disagree that AAs who agree with Coble are fools, but that doesn't mean they've suddenly renounced their Asian-ness.

I am confused. You have a misunderstanding. I am not saying that those agreed with Coble's comments are "un-Asian", just that supporting such views are detriment for AAs.
But does an AA who plays 'model minority' harm the Asian American community culturally, or does he only do harm to the political philosophy that says "don't play the White man's game"? Does an AA who says "I believe Coble was right" become a detriment to his ancestral language, religion, etc., or does he only undermine the AAs who think the way to prove Coble wrong is to have every AA speak out against him?

And if you're annoyed about people thinking you have something against interracial dating, maybe you should rethink how you phrase statements like "Am I to say out-marriages are selling out? It's too complex of a question to say, but certainly doesn't help in strengthening Asian America."

I am not annoyed at all by IR. The sun sets but I like to see the sun shine for 24 hours. This is nature. I do have a control on people's personal choices in life. This is their nature. Even if I do have the power, I would not since I would be denying their life's freedom. But, their personal choices have consequences that effects the AA community.
"Hey, I'm not forcing AAs to stop outmarrying, I'm just telling them how bad they are for doing so!"

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 18 2003, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Mar 17 2003, 06:31 PM
Huh. I must've missed that one. Was HD joking or the other person? You might think this is strange coming from me but it wouldn't really trouble me in the least if you did hate white people.

Shucks. Looks like I missed some juicy forum drama though.
I have no reason to hate white people. I hate the evil that some members of the white majority inflict onto Asians and other minorities. HD wasn't joking. In his boldness, he slipped up - like a Trent Lott - calling Asians that speak up ingrates. After I asked him to stop his disruptive behavior, but continued anyways as a result muted the discussion. The thread is here.
http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?ac...6&t=6304&hl=&s= (http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=6304&hl=&s=)
Who's using straw man tactics now?

[himura-dono]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 18 2003, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Mar 17 2003, 06:31 PM
Huh. I must've missed that one. Was HD joking or the other person? You might think this is strange coming from me but it wouldn't really trouble me in the least if you did hate white people.

Shucks. Looks like I missed some juicy forum drama though.
I have no reason to hate white people. I hate the evil that some members of the white majority inflict onto Asians and other minorities. HD wasn't joking. In his boldness, he slipped up - like a Trent Lott - calling Asians that speak up ingrates. After I asked him to stop his disruptive behavior, but continued anyways as a result muted the discussion. The thread is here.
http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?ac...6&t=6304&hl=&s= (http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=6304&hl=&s=)
dude, taz, i hate to tell you this, but you got a terminal case of retardation.

http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?s=...36&t=6304&st=45 (http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=36&t=6304&st=45)

AND i sent apologies to those who had been offended by my misuse of the word, including you. mellowdrama, wong ba, and you all recieved pm's of me apologizing for using ingrate in an incorrect manner.

if anyone is a racist taz, it's you. you're the one who's had the "crackers must die attitude" long before i even said that.

so i'm gonna let you off easy and politely tell you to go fuck yourself. :huh:

[himura-dono]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 17 2003, 01:09 PM
I am not going to rehash this unity discussion. We know how that ended.
see above post :rolleyes: it ended long ago with a formal apology. if you choose to selctively ignore it and the apology i sent you via pm, thet's you're perogative, but don't attempt to make me out to be a racist or i'll follow suit, and bud, you've said a lot of stupid shit in these forums that IS racist.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 18 2003, 06:44 PM
YuheiCarreau,

In any other situation I would be pulling my hair out, but I am not. I have the patience.

No, because you brought up Howard Coble as an example, and he has made no comments whatsoever on the issue of mixed race marriages (the subject of HH's initial question);

I do have a good idea of what Coble said. My point, The "thinning" of Asian blood concerns me when it comes to the effect it has on the voice of Asian America on political and racial issues. If immigration of Asians were to stop or slow, the constant rate of out-marriage will reduce the Asian (ethnic) population. Thus, my example of the AAs political power; Contrasting the recent Coble and Moran instances and it's clear Asian America has a long ways to go. So, one can predict Asian political power isn't going to increase with out-marriage.
You have in no way shown me what outmarriage specifically has to do with AAs being indifferent towards Coble. You're acting as if there is a direct causal link between the two only when one is not causing the other.


Not all the AAs who support or are indifferent to Coble are mixed or in mixed relationships; not all AAs in mixed relationships support Coble. Equating those AAs you see as pandering to the White majority culture with AAs in mixed marriages is a mistake, because the two groups do not always have the same motivations.

What? I don't understand what you are saying. Maybe, it's a long day. I tried this again.

But does an AA who plays 'model minority' harm the Asian American community culturally, or does he only do harm to the political philosophy that says "don't play the White man's game"?

I ain't taking about *culturally* Asian. POLITICAL. If non-Asians that care as much as the ethnically Asian person about AAs issues, I wouldn't care less about the out-marriage weakening AA political voice. Ethnically Asians generation after generation would be culturally more American than anything else.
And you shouldn't be talking about "politically Asian", because as far as I can tell there is no such thing in the way that there is a "culturally Asian". AAs have a variety of political views, and until you can show me how outmarriage is directly causing AAs to become politically apathetic, I maintain that you are bringing up points that are only tangentially related to the topic at hand.

Does an AA who says "I believe Coble was right" become a detriment to his ancestral language, religion, etc., or does he only undermine the AAs who think the way to prove Coble wrong is to have every AA speak out against him?

What?! No. No. No. Did you even bother to read my post? Here's what I wrote, "Saying that internment camps for JAs was justified you are supporting an agenda that deny the rights of American citizenship and oppression of your own race."[/i]
Again: is there a causal link between outmarriage (the topic of this discussion) and the people who justify Coble's words? Because I don't see one, and I think you're only bringing up Asian Coble supporters because you want to put all the AAs you don't like - the ones who disagree with you politically and the "sellouts" who marry out or play the model minority game, plus God knows who else - into the same box.

[SunWuKong]

i'd have to agree with taz to a certain degree, because inevitably, many mixed asians will not identify as being asian at all. in that sense, and while there is no united asian american voice, many interracial marriages do serve to lessen (or slow the the growth of) asian american political influence.


disclaimer: again, some things... many things... are more important than ensuring an asian american political voice.

[himura-dono]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 18 2003, 04:52 PM
himura-dono,

Sorry, I did not get your PM. Is this your apology?

taz got me on the definition so technically he's right by that word. i was under the misconception that the term meant uneducated. Yuhei, thanks for pointing out that my post had nothing to do with that, but sadly, taz is correct only in the word's definition.
...
to taz and mellow drama, i offer apologies only in stating something in ignorance, the meaning of ingrate.
Do you now what a lie is? A lie is when the liar thinks the subject is stupid and will fall for it. Do you think we are stupid? Do I look stupid to you? Don't insult my intelligence again.


Now, didn't I asked you to behave?

if anyone is a racist taz, it's you. you're the one who's had the "crackers must die attitude" long before i even said that.

so i'm gonna let you off easy and politely tell you to go fuck yourself.

I am the one who has the "crackers must die attitude?" Okay, how? If you are talking about my words, "NO DOGS OR CRACKERS ALLOWED", I did wrote that. I'll explain it now if you didn't understand it within the context of the particular discussion. It's a play of sarcasm on racism, "NO DOGS OR CHINESE ALLOWED." So, is racism funny? No, it's not.
actually THIS is an apology that was in the last post (Along with admitting that i used the word incorrectly):

to taz and mellow drama, i offer apologies only in stating something in ignorance, the meaning of ingrate.

:rolleyes:

Forget it taz, you're no longer worth my time.

[purezero]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Mar 17 2003, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by golden_buns@Mar 17 2003, 09:51 PM
It makes me wonder though. How long do you guys think we'll be able to hold asian culture. I mean, cuz I can't stop noticing that the loss of culture happens even on the 1st generation.

Also even if we did inter-marry among asians, but say of different nationality, I'm sure english would be the 1st language at home, and with which culture would the kids identify with?
i think there is gonna be a gradual lost of culture no matter what from generation to generation if you live in the US. i mean not to sound condescending, callous or as an attack. but the way i look at it is if i was really that concerned in preserving the chinese culture in my kids, i would raise them in china or taiwan. you know? america isn't really gonna be optimal for this purpose. this is just my opinion.

i don't intend on moving to china or taiwan anytime soon, so i'll just deal with it either way.

speaking in regards to me. what is chinese culture? i mean for me it's just a short list of what my parents taught me, how they raised me i.e. respect for elders, humility, etc etc ect. what i learned in school in taiwan before i came to the us which is basically how to read, write and speak chinese. anything else such as history i forgot and have no interest in learning again. news and politics i pick up from browsing the world journal (shi jia xi bo), liberty times (zhi yu xi bo) and ming bo.

for me it's just not really a big deal. if it was i would raise my kids back in the mother land or the mother island.

/puts on flame suit/
Wow. The anger in here... phew! Tiring me out man. Took me forever to get through this thread. Maybe I should have been paying attention earlier.

But yeah, I think that I would be more concerned with cultural thinning than blood thinning. Or is that supposed to be the same thing? Anyway, being 2nd generation (I think), I think that I've lost a lot of values that many of the 1sts have, at least that's what my parents like to remind me about everyday. That whole thing about respecting your elders, maybe my way of respecting them is different from what my parents see... I don't know. I mean, I guess this is mostly a conflict between me and my parents, but sometimes, they just blow up at me using that as an excuse for my difference in opinion. And my name in Chinese is supposed to be like... free-willed or open-minded (that's not verbatim, but that's what I get from what my dad tells me), and when I open my mouth to object, I'm always shot down by my dad. It's only a rare occasion where he will agree with me. And when he feels like I don't agree with him, I'm the one being disrespectful.

Another thing that my family kind of weeds me out about is that I don't speak very well. Last night, my dad was getting at me about how we don't understand each other because his English is bad. And he blames it on me because I don't want to learn Chinese, that it's all my fault that we misunderstand each other. For the most part, I don't see what there is that makes it so hard for him to understand. I feel that I'm really clear about things. Anyway, I haven't had the urge to go learn Chinese because, I guess deep-rooted in the back of my mind (or maybe in the mind of all teenagers, who knows?), that I don't want to listen to them. They've tried to force me into doing things since I was little. I mean, at first I went of my own free will, playing piano, learning Tae Kwon Do, playing the flute, getting a math tutor to further my understanding of math. But once I got to the point where I didn't feel that it was my decision anymore, I just didn't want to do it. And when I got the nerve up to disagree, they say I'm a failure.

I think that when I have kids, whether they be mixed or full blooded Asian, they will probably see me the same way. It's just something in the teenage mind I guess.

Although I fill in Asian in or whatever, I do think that I'm more American than anything. If I have something on my mind, I'm sure I'll voice my opinions despite what others think. And I'm as stubborn as my dad is when it comes to his opinions. But at least I don't force them on people. Maybe it's the whole Asian male = head of the family/calls the shots thing.

I can speak Chinese okay, I understand this and that, I'm just not as comfortable with it as the rest of my family. I'm probably as comfortable with it as they are with English. My grandparents talk to me about learning Chinese like that IS the culture itself. That the language IS the culture, which I don't think is altogether true. But maybe I don't have a clear view about what that culture is.

Hmm... I think I might have gone off on a tangent... :unsure:

[SunWuKong]

language is indeed very important for understanding a culture. it's how people express themselves. :)

[purezero]

Well, I don't think that it's the whole thing. That's all.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 19 2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by himura-dono@Mar 18 2003, 09:42 PM
actually THIS is an apology that was in the last post (Along with admitting that i used the word incorrectly):

to taz and mellow drama, i offer apologies only in stating something in ignorance, the meaning of ingrate.

:rolleyes:

Forget it taz, you're no longer worth my time.
No, himura-dono. By definition that's not an apology. Please, explain why it's an apology. You made a racist comment by calling us ingrates, but you are saying you meant to say uneducated since you are dumb with the meaning of the two words. You are in college, correct? Then, why didn't you say uneducated in the first place? It sounds more like back paddling than an apology.
He called Julia Oh an ingrate (meaning to say uneducated), NOT all Asians. If I were to start going after you for every incorrectly used word or typo in your posts (like when you said "I am not making the argument that AAs must have the same political views. That's why I called your faulty inteference a straw man fallacy.", we'd be here all day. You seem to be the only person not willing to accept HD's explanation for this incident and his apology; now, is that because everyone else on this site is an Asian Uncle Tom, ignoring racism in order to curry favor, or is it because you won't let up on HD because he's White (remember, I also had negative things to say about Oh)? Think about it.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Mar 19 2003, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 19 2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by himura-dono@Mar 18 2003, 09:42 PM
actually THIS is an apology that was in the last post (Along with admitting that i used the word incorrectly):

to taz and mellow drama, i offer apologies only in stating something in ignorance, the meaning of ingrate.

:rolleyes:

Forget it taz, you're no longer worth my time.
No, himura-dono. By definition that's not an apology. Please, explain why it's an apology. You made a racist comment by calling us ingrates, but you are saying you meant to say uneducated since you are dumb with the meaning of the two words. You are in college, correct? Then, why didn't you say uneducated in the first place? It sounds more like back paddling than an apology.
He called Julia Oh an ingrate (meaning to say uneducated), NOT all Asians. If I were to start going after you for every incorrectly used word or typo in your posts (like when you said "I am not making the argument that AAs must have the same political views. That's why I called your faulty inteference a straw man fallacy.", we'd be here all day. You seem to be the only person not willing to accept HD's explanation for this incident and his apology; now, is that because everyone else on this site is an Asian Uncle Tom, ignoring racism in order to curry favor, or is it because you won't let up on HD because he's White (remember, I also had negative things to say about Oh)? Think about it.
ok i'm not going to argue about whether or not HD offered an apology. and i haven't really read much of her work, i mean maybe i'd think she's an ingrate. who knows.

but there is a difference between a white man calling Angelo Oh - who writes about what she perceives as white oppression - an ingrate, and an asian man having negative things to say about her.

[himura-dono]

Originally posted by ti12amisu@Mar 18 2003, 11:00 PM
Well, I don't think that it's the whole thing. That's all.
From what i've noticed, many of my Chinese friends and teachers feel that much of the Chinese culture lies within the language.

"The language itself is an art form; the sound structure, the characters origin...China's long history is IN the language"--Steve Liu, UCD Chinese Dept head.

I can understand your perception and his perception of the language, but the more professor Liu and I talked about it, the more I understood through my Chinese literature classes what he means. The langauage itself seems to shape the poetry and stories. It influences art and the creative process to achieve it. i never thought too much on this idea, but I think I will now.

SWK, maybe you can give her a better explanation from yout perspective.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 19 2003, 12:12 PM
You have in no way shown me what outmarriage specifically has to do with AAs being indifferent towards Coble. You're acting as if there is a direct causal link between the two only when one is not causing the other.

As I mentioned before, Asians mixed into the white majority and can pass for whites will identify being white would care less about AA political and racial issues. This is not scientific in any means, only from personal observation and SWK concurs. Can you see the difference in the cases of Coble to Trent Lott and Moran? Where were the voices against the injustice of Wen Ho Lee? Where were the voices against racist comments of Shaq? Where were the voices against "Kung Fool?"
Were all the Asians who stayed silent on those issues mixed or in mixed marriage? I've met a number of Asians who can pass for White, mixed and monoracial, who care quite passionately about racism against Asians. Yes, some of the people who "sell out" are in mixed relationships, but those relationships are a symptom, not the cause of their distancing themselves from Asian culture. It's not like some AA just says "Whew! I finally got me a White girlfriend! Thank God, now I can stop hanging out with those grimy yellow people! I used to care about racism against Asians, but now that I've got some Nordic Nookie, I'm practically White myself!"

And you shouldn't be talking about "politically Asian", because as far as I can tell there is no such thing in the way that there is a "culturally Asian". AAs have a variety of political views, and until you can show me how outmarriage is directly causing AAs to become politically apathetic, I maintain that you are bringing up points that are only tangentially related to the topic at hand.

This is confusing. For example. Does Keanu Reeves identifies himself as an AA?
Does he identify himself as White? A mixed Asian who doesn't identify as Asian American does not sellout make. Is his identity going to harm Asian America? Does he implicitly support White racism or denigrate Asians? Not as far as I know.

Again: is there a causal link between outmarriage (the topic of this discussion) and the people who justify Coble's words? Because I don't see one, and I think you're only bringing up Asian Coble supporters because you want to put all the AAs you don't like - the ones who disagree with you politically and the "sellouts" who marry out or play the model minority game, plus God knows who else - into the same box.

Straw man fallacy again. As I explained twice the example of Coble and Moran cases. It does not mean AAs must agree in all political issues. Can AAs have disagreements on school prayers, abortions, affirmative actions, war with Iraq, etc. Yes, because those political issues aren't singling out or hurting individuals by race. Clearly, AAs should be united in fighting wrongs (injustice, racism) towards Asians.
You're missing my point. What does AAs standing united on issues of racism have to do with outmarriage? Why did you bring up Coble in a forum about mixed marriages? Why did you write "Am I to say out-marriages are selling out? It's too complex of a question to say, but certainly doesn't help in strengthening Asian America."? Exactly how is outmarriage influencing the way AAs react to Coble's comments - because as I see it, outmarriage hasn't had a direct effect on how AAs treat Coble; yet you bring the issue up as if the two are obviously related.

[kangal]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Mar 18 2003, 08:19 PM
i'd have to agree with taz to a certain degree, because inevitably, many mixed asians will not identify as being asian at all. in that sense, and while there is no united asian american voice, many interracial marriages do serve to lessen (or slow the the growth of) asian american political influence.


disclaimer: again, some things... many things... are more important than ensuring an asian american political voice.
Time for me to jump in since I was part of that famed unity thread. :P The issue of mixed Asians is no different a discussion than the African-American community is going through. Recently, the 2000 census created lots of headaches for the black community as they tried to make a massive push for people to say that they were blacks instead of the other mixed type races such as latino-black, mulatto, or etc. Their reasons was that if we kept on sticking together, we'd have more power. I see this as a double-edged sword. If we intermarry, then we basically become part of the majority. While some may not like this melting, it is what has helped integrate past minorities such as the Eastern Europeans, Irish, and Italians. They too were treated with hatred and violence (Irish Need not Apply) when they first came to the country.

So far, American history has shown that we integrate our cultures. In my mind, interracial marriage can only benefit as more and more will just be seen as part of the minority. And when there are more mixes, people can't say "Hey I don't like Asians" when a close relative may be one. To me, IR marriage would lead to Asian equivalent's of St. Paddy's day where Asians, being intermingled, would be considered part of the majority. And as to Asian culture, interracial marriage does not lead to dissolution of culture if you chose not to. Lastly, the anti-miscengenation stuff is really disappointing to me becasue it is the same reasons that whites had segregation laws; the fear of race-mixing.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 17 2003, 04:47 PM
As exemplify with hapas that can pass for white will only identify with being white.
Um, hi, nice to meet you. I identify myself as Asian. So does Alibaba, and we both look white as white can be.

But I certainly agree with what you are saying. There is an obvious trend in the arguments we all get into in the rant room, and usualy the division lines are between us mixes, and yall full bloods. I agree that perhaps the thinning of blood is a cause, but not THE cause of political apathy. Also your logic suggests that anyone who looks Asian will be united in political voice with all other asians, but there are plenty of twinkies which counter this. However I agree that most lkely there are astronomically less twinkies than there are whitified or blackified mixed asians, so actually I see what you are talking about. Yes, infact thinning of blood will create people less obviously aware of AA issues.

Yuhei,
I think you might have been taking the question a different way than taz. You took it (and most people took it, including myself) to mean, are you scared of blood thinning because you want to hold your culture. Taz put a spin on it. He believes it is scary because it gives Asians less of a political voice in tune with his political views. I don't think he was missing the point at all. Everyone wants more people in the world to think like they do politically.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Mar 18 2003, 09:19 PM
i'd have to agree with taz to a certain degree, because inevitably, many mixed asians will not identify as being asian at all. in that sense, and while there is no united asian american voice, many interracial marriages do serve to lessen (or slow the the growth of) asian american political influence.
Well yeah, but if you gave Fred Korematsu-style plastic surgery to most Asian-Americans at a young age, they probably wouldn't identify with being Asian-American either ...

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 19 2003, 05:26 PM
but there is a difference between a white man calling Angelo Oh

Did you made that on purpose? Hehe. :)
oops... shit... i meant to say Angela Oh... and even THAT'S wrong. i was reading something about Angela Oh earlier and got her name mixed up with Julia Oh.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by kangal@Mar 19 2003, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Mar 18 2003, 08:19 PM
i'd have to agree with taz to a certain degree, because inevitably, many mixed asians will not identify as being asian at all.  in that sense, and while there is no united asian american voice, many interracial marriages do serve to lessen (or slow the the growth of) asian american political influence.


disclaimer:  again, some things...  many things...  are more important than ensuring an asian american political voice.
Time for me to jump in since I was part of that famed unity thread. :P The issue of mixed Asians is no different a discussion than the African-American community is going through. Recently, the 2000 census created lots of headaches for the black community as they tried to make a massive push for people to say that they were blacks instead of the other mixed type races such as latino-black, mulatto, or etc. Their reasons was that if we kept on sticking together, we'd have more power. I see this as a double-edged sword. If we intermarry, then we basically become part of the majority. While some may not like this melting, it is what has helped integrate past minorities such as the Eastern Europeans, Irish, and Italians. They too were treated with hatred and violence (Irish Need not Apply) when they first came to the country.

So far, American history has shown that we integrate our cultures. In my mind, interracial marriage can only benefit as more and more will just be seen as part of the minority. And when there are more mixes, people can't say "Hey I don't like Asians" when a close relative may be one. To me, IR marriage would lead to Asian equivalent's of St. Paddy's day where Asians, being intermingled, would be considered part of the majority. And as to Asian culture, interracial marriage does not lead to dissolution of culture if you chose not to. Lastly, the anti-miscengenation stuff is really disappointing to me becasue it is the same reasons that whites had segregation laws; the fear of race-mixing.
well, your comparison with irish americans and italian americans is not exactly correct. they're white. asians and blacks are not white, and they're visibly a minority. irish people, italians, etc, can take americanised surnames and move out of their ethnic enclaves, and people would have just assumed that they were not minorities. while asians and blacks cannot do this from the mere fact that they look vastly different from the white majority.

and why should we integrate? if we are discriminated against, it is because the majority is not capable of being tolerant of people who are different from them, not because we look different and we choose to lead different lifestyles.

as for what you said about interracial marriages benefitting a minority people (and specifically what you said), i think will refute that by putting HH on the spot right now. i hope she doesn't mind.

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Nov 8 2002, 04:28 PM
When I was getting beat up for being a chink/gook/jap in school and being told to go back to China, his advice was to inform the schoolkids that I was Irish. Ah, my poor clueless, honkey dad.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Mar 19 2003, 07:44 PM
I agree that perhaps the thinning of blood is a cause, but not THE cause of political apathy. Also your logic suggests that anyone who looks Asian will be united in political voice with all other asians, but there are plenty of twinkies which counter this.
yes yes, exactly. i mean if anything, i think "twinkies" contribute more to possibly thinning asian american political influence than mixed asians who don't identify with being asian at all.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Mar 19 2003, 06:44 PM
This is confusing. For example. Does Keanu Reeves identifies himself as an AA?
Does he identify himself as White? A mixed Asian who doesn't identify as Asian American does not sellout make. Is his identity going to harm Asian America? Does he implicitly support White racism or denigrate Asians? Not as far as I know.
i think the point taz is trying to make with the keanu example is that whether or not keanu identifies with being white, he's obviously not publicly identify with being specifically asian, and that even though he came from a partially asian lineage, he would not be contributing to asian american influence by the mere fact that he does not identify as being asian american.

[purezero]

Originally posted by himura-dono@Mar 19 2003, 02:49 PM
From what i've noticed, many of my Chinese friends and teachers feel that much of the Chinese culture lies within the language.

"The language itself is an art form; the sound structure, the characters origin...China's long history is IN the language"--Steve Liu, UCD Chinese Dept head.

I can understand your perception and his perception of the language, but the more professor Liu and I talked about it, the more I understood through my Chinese literature classes what he means. The langauage itself seems to shape the poetry and stories. It influences art and the creative process to achieve it. i never thought too much on this idea, but I think I will now.

SWK, maybe you can give her a better explanation from yout perspective.
Hmm... maybe I never thought of it that way. I mean, what languages I have to base it off of? English? Spanish? In THOSE cases, I guess, it wouldn't be SO much as part of the culture, but yeah, I see where Mr. Liu is getting at.

I need to brush up on some Chinese history and all that.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

SWK:well, your comparison with irish americans and italian americans is not exactly correct. they're white. asians and blacks are not white, and they're visibly a minority. irish people, italians, etc, can take americanised surnames and move out of their ethnic enclaves, and people would have just assumed that they were not minorities. while asians and blacks cannot do this from the mere fact that they look vastly different from the white majority.

Who is considered 'white' has changed considerably over history. The Irish-Americans used to be considered black (and inferior, naturally), as did the Italian immigrants. The boundaries of this socially-constructed 'race' do not remain permanent nor clear. And before much interbreeding and integration took place (and the arrival of other minority ethnic groups later on which seemed to 'look' even more different than the Brits and thereby easing the opportunity for Italian or Irish acceptance), I don't think it was too difficult to tell the difference between say a Brit and an Italian (although probably not as easy as telling, say, a Chinese guy from a Brit).

[kangal]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Mar 20 2003, 02:22 PM
SWK:well, your comparison with irish americans and italian americans is not exactly correct. they're white. asians and blacks are not white, and they're visibly a minority. irish people, italians, etc, can take americanised surnames and move out of their ethnic enclaves, and people would have just assumed that they were not minorities. while asians and blacks cannot do this from the mere fact that they look vastly different from the white majority.

Who is considered 'white' has changed considerably over history. The Irish-Americans used to be considered black (and inferior, naturally), as did the Italian immigrants. The boundaries of this socially-constructed 'race' do not remain permanent nor clear. And before much interbreeding and integration took place (and the arrival of other minority ethnic groups later on which seemed to 'look' even more different than the Brits and thereby easing the opportunity for Italian or Irish acceptance), I don't think it was too difficult to tell the difference between say a Brit and an Italian (although probably not as easy as telling, say, a Chinese guy from a Brit).
well said pizza...in fact, in birmingham, the home of segregation, catholics were seen as worse than blacks during the early 1900's.....italians and irish were segregated to their own areas of town and had laws passed to prohibit their integration.....there were several famous cases where catholics were murdered without punishment for the killers....with interracial marriage, i think that it does remove the issue of color as people like many prominent hapas are seen as Americans....not white or asian or etc....

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by kangal@Mar 20 2003, 04:26 PM
i think that it does remove the issue of color as people like many prominent hapas are seen as Americans....not white or asian or etc....
it also removes diversity

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Mar 20 2003, 03:33 PM
it also removes diversity
No, it doesn't. And I'm getting tired of arguing this point, but that's a really offensive thing to say.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Mar 20 2003, 03:02 PM
No, it doesn't. And I'm getting tired of arguing this point, but that's a really offensive thing to say.
I don't think it's that hard to understand (or is offensive) if you take in the fact that there are many hapas who will either identify more with either whites or Asians, the ones who identify more with whites will most likely neglect ot teach their children about their Asian roots (if they know about it themselves at all), and the hapas who identify themselves as Asians will obviously do their best to give their child an 'Asian' upbringing, for lack of better term. Ultimately, no matter what, there will be Asian blood that is merged into the majority European American family tree, not that it is a bad or good thing. It's just what happens. Look at the interbreeding of Europeans, do you see a lot of prevalent Irish or Italian or English culture in the United States? Sure, it exists. But not nearly as much as it did when Italian and Irish Americans immigrated and were still seen as outsiders or inferior (i.e. pre-integration and acceptance). Before, Italians and Irish saw themselves as Irish or Italian, but after generations of mixing with various European groups (I'm not saying all Irish or Italian families did so, because if you go to places like New York there are areas where this is definitely not the case), they simply identify themselves as white as a result of either upbringing or genetic mixture.

At the risk of offending people, there will be Asian blood 'lost' no matter what.
On the other hand, you could argue that the offspring (and future generations) of the hapas which identify themselves as Asian could proceed to also preserve the Asian culture (via upbringing or marrying and breeding with other Asians), but I feel that Asian culture will ultimately be lost more than anything due to the overwhelming European American majority (as we are basically or mainly referring to hapas who are Euro-Asian, right?).

It's just a matter of logic to me I guess. And even so I'm not really concerned about it seeing as how there are many people in Asia who will preserve the culture anyways (not to put the burden on anyone else's shoulders), I mean hey who else are they gonna marry and what other culture do they know besides their own?

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 20 2003, 06:35 PM
Twinkie == Elaine Chao
as an immigrant, she has far better understanding of Chinese culture and language than most ABCs.

once again, you're trying to define twinkie as "anyone who disagrees with me about American political issues."

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Asian culture will ultimately be lost more than anything due to the overwhelming European American majority (as we are basically or mainly referring to hapas who are Euro-Asian, right?).

asian culture is lost cuz the american-born generation are too fuckin lazy to practice and speak ancestral languages, they just wanna hang out in a giant racial clique and call it "asian american culture" when it's just American culture practiced by a closed circle of asses whose self-esteem is depending on deceiving themselves to believe they're somehow more "diverse" than other Americans.

more and more reason why I don't wanna raise any kids I have in this country ... they might turn into asian americans.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

right, so I presume you have proof that Elaine Chao thinks she's white? Or are you just blindly extrapolating from her political orientation and her marriage?

My definition of twinkie is an Asian who can only function in the English speaking environment and whose cultural reference points (everything from great works of literature down to movies, magazines, tv shows watched as a kid, and jokes) come overwhelmingly from English-language media.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Mar 20 2003, 04:09 PM

asian culture is lost cuz the american-born generation are too fuckin lazy to practice and speak ancestral languages, they just wanna hang out in a giant racial clique and call it "asian american culture" when it's just American culture practiced by a closed circle of asses whose self-esteem is depending on deceiving themselves to believe they're somehow more "diverse" than other Americans.

Why am I obligated to learn Chinese more than any other white American kids are obligated to learn German or Czech if their parents speak it? If I want to fit in and hang out in other groups I'm lazy? Who, as a teenager, does not want to fit in? I didn't want to learn Chinese because when I was little I didn't want to associate myself with Chinese/Asian culture or people because I saw it as weird and foreign compared to what I was surrounded by (i.e. white friends and white American culture). It has nothing to do with laziness. Now I can speak three different Asian languages and I'm a pretty fucking lazy guy. You come across as saying that Asian American groups (I know which ones you are talking about, the ones that are either gangsters, racers, yuppies, or nerds) are filled with lazy clueless sloths looking for an easy way out of their insecurity. Strangely enough most of my friends are either whitebread whites, whitewashed Asians, or FOB Asians, not very many Asian Americans who like to hang around other Asian Americans. Come to think of it, YW is the first real Asian American community or group (online or not) that I have ever immersed myself into.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Mar 20 2003, 04:19 PM
My definition of twinkie is an Asian who can only function in the English speaking environment and whose cultural reference points (everything from great works of literature down to movies, magazines, tv shows watched as a kid, and jokes) come overwhelmingly from English-language media.
That sounds like me, except I have the capacity to interact within the medium of various other Asian cultures but I prefer to stay most of the time in the English-speaking environment. It's not like I'm bound or have no choice but to stay functioning in the English-speaking state. I'd say that a lot of people are the same way.

[kangal]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 20 2003, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Mar 20 2003, 04:03 PM
as an immigrant, she has far better understanding of Chinese culture and language than most ABCs.

once again, you're trying to define twinkie as "anyone who disagrees with me about American political issues."
You know?! I am sitting here trying to understand how you came up with this conclusion from "Twinkie == Elaine Chao," since this has nothing to do with language, culture, or political views. The only thing I can think of is another straw man fallacy - ignores my point and substitutes a distorted version.

I love to see your logical reasoning on how you derived your conclusion.
Where do your opinions from her being a Twinkie emanate from? I often hear her name linked with Colin Powell, Condi Rice, Norm Mineta, Dniseh D'Souza ( a very conservative political commentator) and Justice Clarence Thomas. The link? They are all conservative-minded minorities that have made it to places of power. The assumption is that there is no way they could have made it in the Republican party unless they "sold-out". That is complete BULLSHIT. I find it hard to swallow that when a minority as a Democrat ascends to power, ie Gov. Gary Locke, then it is a great stride for minorities. He freaking CHANGED his last name! That's not embarrassment? If Elaine CHAO was afraid of her Asian heritage, she would go by Ms. Elaine McConnell, her husband's last name. Many minorities such as Secy. Chao and Jus. Thomas are often assailed as being against minorities because they are against affirmitive action. The last time I checked that old thread on AA, several members of yw were against AA. NOw, does that mean all of them are sell-outs? I think not. Taz, what do you know about Ms. Chao? She was the director the the Peace Corps and United Way. I don't see these as being anti-Asian. I've searched the web, and the main points against Ms. Chao is that she spoke out against affirm. action. That's it. That to me is not enough to show she is a sell-out. I don't like AA. Then slap me with a Del-MOnte sticker, b/c I'm a banana.

[kangal]

Explain then why Elaine Chao is a twinkie in your mind. ANd changing your last name does deal with ethnicity. You said yourself that a twinkie is one who is embarrassed to be Asian. I dont' see Chao doing anything of that sort.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Mar 20 2003, 06:03 PM
I don't think it's that hard to understand (or is offensive) if you take in the fact that there are many hapas who will either identify more with either whites or Asians, the ones who identify more with whites will most likely neglect ot teach their children about their Asian roots (if they know about it themselves at all), and the hapas who identify themselves as Asians will obviously do their best to give their child an 'Asian' upbringing, for lack of better term.  Ultimately, no matter what, there will be Asian blood that is merged into the majority European American family tree, not that it is a bad or good thing.  It's just what happens.  Look at the interbreeding of Europeans, do you see a lot of prevalent Irish or Italian or English culture in the United States?  Sure, it exists.  But not nearly as much as it did when Italian and Irish Americans immigrated and were still seen as outsiders or inferior (i.e. pre-integration and acceptance).  Before, Italians and Irish saw themselves as Irish or Italian, but after generations of mixing with various European groups (I'm not saying all Irish or Italian families did so, because if you go to places like New York there are areas where this is definitely not the case), they simply identify themselves as white as a result of either upbringing or genetic mixture.

At the risk of offending people, there will be Asian blood 'lost' no matter what.
On the other hand, you could argue that the offspring (and future generations) of the hapas which identify themselves as Asian could proceed to also preserve the Asian culture (via upbringing or marrying and breeding with other Asians), but I feel that Asian culture will ultimately be lost more than anything due to the overwhelming European American majority (as we are basically or mainly referring to hapas who are Euro-Asian, right?).

It's just a matter of logic to me I guess.  And even so I'm not really concerned about it seeing as how there are many people in Asia who will preserve the culture anyways (not to put the burden on anyone else's shoulders), I mean hey who else are they gonna marry and what other culture do they know besides their own?
I think SWK's comment, "[interracial relationships] also remove diversity" was offensive because it implies that cultural homogeneity is a direct and inevitable result of interracial relationships. It's also offensive because, in its brevity, it seems to lay the blame for the 'Whitewashing' of non-Whites in the US on those relationships. Knowing SWK, I am aware that this is not really the way he feels, but his comment offended me all the same.

I don't have to introduce you to the number of part White Hapas on this board who nonetheless do not identify as part of a homogenous majority; you've already met them. It really bothers me when people try to extend the racial identity issues of monoracial people to cover multiracial people. Sometimes this process works, but just as often it falls drastically short of describing the thoughts and experiences of multiracials. Being part White and part Asian in a mostly White society is very different from being solely Asian in a mostly White society, and each group faces very different questions and challenges in defining their racial or cultural identity. Most of the Hapas I've met have chosen to identify themselves quite differently from both of their parents, not just the Asian one. You use the experience of Irish and Italian immigrants to the (WASP) USA as a hypothetical model for Asian Americans in the future, which both you (and SWK, after a fashion) assume will result in a homogenous American culture. I think that assumption is a faulty one. Yes, the Italians, Germans, etc. who came to this country from Europe gave up their much of their ancestral language and customs; however, is the WASP culture that White America originated from still completely intact and dominant among all White Americans in the present day? Was it in no way affected or changed by the new culture it encountered? More to the point, are there no remaining members of that culture who still gather together and practice the customs unique to their ancestral culture?

If you look at the situation simply in terms of statistics, then yes, a great number of people from any immigrant culture will be absorbed into the majority culture of the country they've traveled to. However, the question of ethnicity is not a binary proposition, "Are you still Italian? Yes?! No?!". I know a number of third and fourth generation Italian Americans who are still Catholic, still keep track of third and fourth cousins as if they were sons and daughters, and still speak Italian to one another (although I admit most are not fluent). They also speak English, play baseball, and eat hamburgers and french fries; so what are they? In the face of all the statistics and all the odds and the plain and simple fact that it would be much easier for them to just become a part of the WASP majority that often portrays them as greaseball Mafiosos or papist devils, they hold onto their culture. If a monoracial, not-quite-monocultural person can "take a third way", an identity unique from their ancestral culture and the culture they've grown up in, isn't it also possible for multiracials to have an identity unique from that of either of their parents'? If a culture like that of Italian Americans can remain in the US for more than a hundred years and still have a very strong and cohesive identity, why assume that in only a couple generations all the Asian will be bred out of America, or that a Hapa will use the genetic 'excuse' of being part White to do the same? Why paint such a simple picture of a process (cultural assimilation) that, were it not so complex, would not be so hotly contended and debated generations after the fact?

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Mar 20 2003, 07:24 PM
I think SWK's comment, "[interracial relationships] also remove diversity" was offensive because it implies that cultural homogeneity is a direct and inevitable result of interracial relationships.
A general pool of interracial relationships will show that inevitably in some cases some of the offspring will adopt a culturally homogenous upbringing. But yes I agree that not all interracial relationships remove diversity. However pure logic despite this issue being a 'complex' issue states that the 'existence' or 'presence' of interracial relationships in general will lead to cultural homogeneity in some shape or form.

[kangal]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 20 2003, 09:25 PM
Kangal,

Changing one's last name is not "the only" determining factor of "twinkie-ness."
She could be or not. I might be wrong about her. As I said, it's just my opinion.
taz, thats cool, as long as you are willing to say you might be wrong, than i'm cool with that

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by kangal@Mar 20 2003, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 20 2003, 09:25 PM
Kangal,

Changing one's last name is not "the only" determining factor of "twinkie-ness."
She could be or not. I might be wrong about her. As I said, it's just my opinion.
taz, thats cool, as long as you are willing to say you might be wrong, than i'm cool with that
Opinions can't be wrong or right. If I say 'it's just my opinion', I'm not saying 'I might be wrong', I'm saying 'other people might think from a different angle and have an alternative take on it, and it's ok and/or I don't give a @#$%'.

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Mar 20 2003, 09:55 PM
Opinions can't be wrong or right.
i beg to differ w/ that opinion. :P

if your opinion was that 1 + 1 = 3, then your opinion would be wrong.

just ignore me btw, i don't know whats gotten into me. i think i'm a bit sleepy.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Mar 20 2003, 09:36 PM
A general pool of interracial relationships will show that inevitably in some cases some of the offspring will adopt a culturally homogenous upbringing.   But yes I agree that not all interracial relationships remove diversity.  However pure logic despite this issue being a 'complex' issue states that the 'existence' or 'presence' of interracial relationships in general will lead to cultural homogeneity in some shape or form.
True, but I think it's necessary that we consider the language we use very carefully, as the 'logic' of 'stating' that a 'general pool' will blah blah 'blah' cultural homogeneity in 'some' shape or 'form' can be taken as a generalization or 'be' misinterpreted. :P

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Mar 20 2003, 06:02 PM
No, it doesn't. And I'm getting tired of arguing this point, but that's a really offensive thing to say.
kangal was saying that eventually hapas would just be seen as american, not white or asian. now, i'm only following his logic here. it doesn't even mean i agree with it. so two categories are converging into one seperate one. differences are eliminated. how does that not remove diversity?

and sorry if i offended you. it definitely wasn't my intention.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Mar 20 2003, 07:03 PM
Ultimately, no matter what, there will be Asian blood that is merged into the majority European American family tree, not that it is a bad or good thing. It's just what happens.
yeah that's how i feel about it. it's just a natural consequence. so what if it happens? if you really want to immerse yourself in your asian culture, you can always go try living in asia. and i don't mean that in a "go back to where you come from" way. i myself am planning to go back to HK/china to live for an extended period of time.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Mar 21 2003, 03:09 AM
kangal was saying that eventually hapas would just be seen as american, not white or asian. now, i'm only following his logic here. it doesn't even mean i agree with it. so two categories are converging into one seperate one. differences are eliminated. how does that not remove diversity?
Well, for one thing it assumes that mixed race marriages or biracial people would become numerically superior to single race marriages and people; which we're not, and won't be for a loooong time, no matter how cute people think biracial babies are. So while the end result, a long way down the line, is a completely homogenous group, all the way up until then mixing races will create more diversity than if people just married within their own race.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Mar 20 2003, 07:09 PM

asian culture is lost cuz the american-born generation are too fuckin lazy to practice and speak ancestral languages, they just wanna hang out in a giant racial clique and call it "asian american culture" when it's just American culture practiced by a closed circle of asses whose self-esteem is depending on deceiving themselves to believe they're somehow more "diverse" than other Americans.

more and more reason why I don't wanna raise any kids I have in this country ... they might turn into asian americans.
right again. like i said in a previous post, i think "full blooded" asian americans who don't really care about their ethnic culture contribute more to culture thinning and diluting the asian american voice, than mixed asians who don't identify as asian. but i mean, hey, their lifestyle is their choice.

and about not wanting your kids to turn into asian americans. oh man, that is my exact thought. and actually YW helped me come to this realisation. :P

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Mar 20 2003, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Mar 20 2003, 04:09 PM

asian culture is lost cuz the american-born generation are too fuckin lazy to practice and speak ancestral languages, they just wanna hang out in a giant racial clique and call it "asian american culture" when it's just American culture practiced by a closed circle of asses whose self-esteem is depending on deceiving themselves to believe they're somehow more "diverse" than other Americans.

Why am I obligated to learn Chinese more than any other white American kids are obligated to learn German or Czech if their parents speak it? If I want to fit in and hang out in other groups I'm lazy? Who, as a teenager, does not want to fit in? I didn't want to learn Chinese because when I was little I didn't want to associate myself with Chinese/Asian culture or people because I saw it as weird and foreign compared to what I was surrounded by (i.e. white friends and white American culture). It has nothing to do with laziness. Now I can speak three different Asian languages and I'm a pretty fucking lazy guy. You come across as saying that Asian American groups (I know which ones you are talking about, the ones that are either gangsters, racers, yuppies, or nerds) are filled with lazy clueless sloths looking for an easy way out of their insecurity. Strangely enough most of my friends are either whitebread whites, whitewashed Asians, or FOB Asians, not very many Asian Americans who like to hang around other Asian Americans. Come to think of it, YW is the first real Asian American community or group (online or not) that I have ever immersed myself into.
i'd have to agree with both of you. there are those who are stigmatise with being the asian minority, and so dissociates themselves from their ethnic culture. but then there are those who are too lazy to practice their language and culture.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Mar 21 2003, 04:18 AM
Well, for one thing it assumes that mixed race marriages or biracial people would become numerically superior to single race marriages and people; which we're not, and won't be for a loooong time, no matter how cute people think biracial babies are. So while the end result, a long way down the line, is a completely homogenous group, all the way up until then mixing races will create more diversity than if people just married within their own race.
hey, tell that to kangal. i was actually criticising his view.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 20 2003, 08:33 PM
I don't think language, culture, or poilitical views for that matter define one's ethnicity.
sure. but i honestly have a difficult time seeing any difference between an asian american that doesn't know his ethnic language and culture, from a white american. so what value does someone like that contribute to the asian american community?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by kangal@Mar 20 2003, 09:16 PM
I find it hard to swallow that when a minority as a Democrat ascends to power, ie Gov. Gary Locke, then it is a great stride for minorities. He freaking CHANGED his last name! That's not embarrassment?
i was under the impression that the spelling of his surname was changed generations ago, and that he didn't do it himself. correct me if i'm wrong.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Mar 20 2003, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Mar 20 2003, 06:03 PM
I don't think it's that hard to understand (or is offensive) if you take in the fact that there are many hapas who will either identify more with either whites or Asians, the ones who identify more with whites will most likely neglect ot teach their children about their Asian roots (if they know about it themselves at all), and the hapas who identify themselves as Asians will obviously do their best to give their child an 'Asian' upbringing, for lack of better term. Ultimately, no matter what, there will be Asian blood that is merged into the majority European American family tree, not that it is a bad or good thing. It's just what happens. Look at the interbreeding of Europeans, do you see a lot of prevalent Irish or Italian or English culture in the United States? Sure, it exists. But not nearly as much as it did when Italian and Irish Americans immigrated and were still seen as outsiders or inferior (i.e. pre-integration and acceptance). Before, Italians and Irish saw themselves as Irish or Italian, but after generations of mixing with various European groups (I'm not saying all Irish or Italian families did so, because if you go to places like New York there are areas where this is definitely not the case), they simply identify themselves as white as a result of either upbringing or genetic mixture.

At the risk of offending people, there will be Asian blood 'lost' no matter what.
On the other hand, you could argue that the offspring (and future generations) of the hapas which identify themselves as Asian could proceed to also preserve the Asian culture (via upbringing or marrying and breeding with other Asians), but I feel that Asian culture will ultimately be lost more than anything due to the overwhelming European American majority (as we are basically or mainly referring to hapas who are Euro-Asian, right?).

It's just a matter of logic to me I guess. And even so I'm not really concerned about it seeing as how there are many people in Asia who will preserve the culture anyways (not to put the burden on anyone else's shoulders), I mean hey who else are they gonna marry and what other culture do they know besides their own?
I think SWK's comment, " also remove diversity" was offensive because it implies that cultural homogeneity is a direct and inevitable result of interracial relationships. It's also offensive because, in its brevity, it seems to lay the blame for the 'Whitewashing' of non-Whites in the US on those relationships. Knowing SWK, I am aware that this is not really the way he feels, but his comment offended me all the same.

I don't have to introduce you to the number of part White Hapas on this board who nonetheless do not identify as part of a homogenous majority; you've already met them. It really bothers me when people try to extend the racial identity issues of monoracial people to cover multiracial people. Sometimes this process works, but just as often it falls drastically short of describing the thoughts and experiences of multiracials. Being part White and part Asian in a mostly White society is very different from being solely Asian in a mostly White society, and each group faces very different questions and challenges in defining their racial or cultural identity. Most of the Hapas I've met have chosen to identify themselves quite differently from both of their parents, not just the Asian one. You use the experience of Irish and Italian immigrants to the (WASP) USA as a hypothetical model for Asian Americans in the future, which both you (and SWK, after a fashion) assume will result in a homogenous American culture. I think that assumption is a faulty one. Yes, the Italians, Germans, etc. who came to this country from Europe gave up their much of their ancestral language and customs; however, is the WASP culture that White America originated from still completely intact and dominant among all White Americans in the present day? Was it in no way affected or changed by the new culture it encountered? More to the point, are there no remaining members of that culture who still gather together and practice the customs unique to their ancestral culture?

If you look at the situation simply in terms of statistics, then yes, a great number of people from any immigrant culture will be absorbed into the majority culture of the country they've traveled to. However, the question of ethnicity is not a binary proposition, "Are you still Italian? Yes?! No?!". I know a number of third and fourth generation Italian Americans who are still Catholic, still keep track of third and fourth cousins as if they were sons and daughters, and still speak Italian to one another (although I admit most are not fluent). They also speak English, play baseball, and eat hamburgers and french fries; so what are they? In the face of all the statistics and all the odds and the plain and simple fact that it would be much easier for them to just become a part of the WASP majority that often portrays them as greaseball Mafiosos or papist devils, they hold onto their culture. If a monoracial, not-quite-monocultural person can "take a third way", an identity unique from their ancestral culture and the culture they've grown up in, isn't it also possible for multiracials to have an identity unique from that of either of their parents'? If a culture like that of Italian Americans can remain in the US for more than a hundred years and still have a very strong and cohesive identity, why assume that in only a couple generations all the Asian will be bred out of America, or that a Hapa will use the genetic 'excuse' of being part White to do the same? Why paint such a simple picture of a process (cultural assimilation) that, were it not so complex, would not be so hotly contended and debated generations after the fact?
if i understand correctly your point, it is that a growing population of mixed people will create a unique community and identity. and i agree with this. again, i was criticising kangal's logic.

[i]however, to get back to taz's original topic, this unique identity of mixed people would be created out of partially asian lineage - thus thinning out the asian american voice just the same, because these mixed people would identity more so and uniquely as mixed, hapa, etc etc, instead of "plain" asian american.

that is, if i understand you correctly.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by tazadar@Mar 20 2003, 08:33 PM
Nope, just my opinion.

You need to use another term for your definition. To my knowledge and confirmed by others, twinkie or banana (yellow outside, white inside) is yellow on the outside (Asian) and white on the inside (Caucasian) and ashamed of being Asian and identify with being white. "Banana" and "twinkie" are analogous to "oreo" in the context of black people. African Americans community would disagree with you since their primary language is English and culturally American. They most likely would say they're not all oreos. These terms have nothing to do with language and culture, but everything to do with ethnicity. I don't think language, culture, or poilitical views for that matter define one's ethnicity.
African Americans are an utter non sequiter. First, to a certain extent they do have a separate culture into which it is difficult for white people to join (where do you think the term "wigger" came from ... certainly wasn't a term of respect and invitation) and more importantly a separate language. Ask any linguist. It's not just some wackjob "Ebonics" theory ... Black Vernacular English is a well-defined dialect with observable grammatical rules. And also their separate culture resulted from the fact that they were excluded from the mainstream culture with extreme violence and prejudice over hundreds of years, which Asian Americans have never faced anything near it's level. Resultingly it's hardly a contradiction to say that blacks don't diminish their blackness by only being able to speak English rather than African languages --- they had that particular marker of culture literally beaten out of them --- while Asian-Americans reduce their Asianness by being unable to speak an Asian language.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Mar 21 2003, 04:34 AM
i was under the impression that the spelling of his surname was changed generations ago, and that he didn't do it himself.  correct me if i'm wrong.
Locke was probably the spelling chosen by an immigration officer. They've done some pretty ideosyncratic spellings. Apparently there were several Japanese running around California being mistaken for Irish on paper because some port official stuck an apostrophe into Ohara (da4 yuen2). Often times you can tell what generation an ABC is by looking at the spelling of the last name and finding stuff that has way too many vowels in there ... e.g. "Ung, Seetowe, Lumm." My favorite one is "Louiey." It's like they couldn't figure out what the vowel, but knew it wasn't an A, so they just through every other one possible in there.

[kangal]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Mar 21 2003, 03:24 AM
Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Mar 20 2003, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Mar 20 2003, 04:09 PM

asian culture is lost cuz the american-born generation are too fuckin lazy to practice and speak ancestral languages, they just wanna hang out in a giant racial clique and call it "asian american culture" when it's just American culture practiced by a closed circle of asses whose self-esteem is depending on deceiving themselves to believe they're somehow more "diverse" than other Americans.

Why am I obligated to learn Chinese more than any other white American kids are obligated to learn German or Czech if their parents speak it? If I want to fit in and hang out in other groups I'm lazy? Who, as a teenager, does not want to fit in? I didn't want to learn Chinese because when I was little I didn't want to associate myself with Chinese/Asian culture or people because I saw it as weird and foreign compared to what I was surrounded by (i.e. white friends and white American culture). It has nothing to do with laziness. Now I can speak three different Asian languages and I'm a pretty fucking lazy guy. You come across as saying that Asian American groups (I know which ones you are talking about, the ones that are either gangsters, racers, yuppies, or nerds) are filled with lazy clueless sloths looking for an easy way out of their insecurity. Strangely enough most of my friends are either whitebread whites, whitewashed Asians, or FOB Asians, not very many Asian Americans who like to hang around other Asian Americans. Come to think of it, YW is the first real Asian American community or group (online or not) that I have ever immersed myself into.
i'd have to agree with both of you. there are those who are stigmatise with being the asian minority, and so dissociates themselves from their ethnic culture. but then there are those who are too lazy to practice their language and culture.
Well, SWK, you seem to make it pretty obvious that you don't agree with my point. I may have misspoken earlier, but I still hold true to the belief that interracial marriage is not a bad thing. Even if it does create a separate group like YH states, i don't feel that is such a bad thing. Going back to the original topic, I don't feel that it would thin out the power for Asian-Americans. My entire point of comparing it to Italians and etc was that even if there is partial mixing, it would bring the Asian culture into the majority/mainstream. The indirect result would be that, through mixing, the Asian culture and Asians themselves would be seen as the majority. Then, there would be no great reason to fight for Asian interests specifically as we would be part of the majority. For example, the more mixing there is, the more chance that people would have a relation to the Asian culture.

Thus, as the culture becomes more mainstream, then so do the people. In my case, I think that with all the non-Asian girls that I've dated, I've been able to imbue certain cultural points onto them. By mixing in terms of relations, people will come to accept as I'm sure that people I've either befriended or dated have taken to view Asians in a better light.


The key is that those who mix need not be passive in regards to their culture. I think through mixing, you are actually building allies. Let's say that you marry a white person. Assuming that things are well, you've gained at least that much more non-Asian support. The one thing I sometimes don't like about the fight for Asian power is how its soley fought by Asians. I think it's great that HD is on this board. But, I don't like the notion that if you aren't Asian, you don't underst