keepin us down

[kasia]

this is an extension of our discussion in the 'why do women hate each other thread'--

if you think about, the strategy used to keep women in their subordinate positions is the same as the one used to keep minorities down. they want us to be skeptical and distrustful of one another so that we don't come together, recognize the commonalities in the ways that we are mistreated, and form a group consciousness--a stronger voice. stereotypes are perpetuated for this very reason.

responding with, "but some girls really [i:f750194a08]are [/i:f750194a08]whiny," is no different than saying, "but some asians really [i:f750194a08]are [/i:f750194a08]annoying." it's a form of self-hate, if you will.

[mrazntre]

as an aside...


i find that women in general are not very comfortable around other women. many of my friends who are women have like 1 or 3 best friends that are girls and the rest of their friends are guys. I dunno.

so... what if some women really ARE whiny ? does that also count as self-hate?

how do we separate reality from underlying tones of stereotyping?

[achtungbaby]

Some random thoughts...

I think I've always been kind of fascinated by how much some women make their happiness contingent upon being either in a relationship or married -- or, at a more base level, dependent upon how many guys want to date them or who wants to sleep with them. You are not your tits or ass, no matter how much attention you get from them now, or how much you hope to get from them after they've been modified.

Part of the problem lies with men, in how we reward women for their sometimes-idiot behavior or "whinyness" or other-related crap that they might get from watching too many soap operas. And I think a majority of the problem lies with the disempowered mindset of many women.

[inkpainter]

...i think how a woman reacts to other women boils down to one thing....whether she has security issues or not...if she's not insecure she's curious, accepting, and appreciative of other's views...if she has issues, she's defensive, overly oppinionated, and close minded...just my experience.

i hate soap operas....waste of time.. :roll:

[kasia]

[quote:341d4d604b="mrazntre"]so... what if some women really ARE whiny ? does that also count as self-hate? how do we separate reality from underlying tones of stereotyping?[/quote:341d4d604b]

the statement that women are whiny is probably as true as the statement that vietnamese people are dirty.

i hear that from people all the time--"but vietnamese people really are dirty."

[mrazntre]

damn right i'm dirty.

i fight dirty too, so if i ever hear that from someone, you better believe i'll start head stomping and kicking the shit out of them once they're down on the ground.

..that's just how i grew up...


BTW, my statement was "SOME women are whiny" not "ALL women are whiny." So are you saying that all women are NOT whiny?

[deez nuts]

Hehe not touching this subject. <Waves>

[kasia]

[quote:d573b34967="mrazntre"]damn right i'm dirty.

i fight dirty too, so if i ever hear that from someone, you better believe i'll start head stomping and kicking the shit out of them once they're down on the ground.

..that's just how i grew up...


BTW, my statement was "SOME women are whiny" not "ALL women are whiny." So are you saying that all women are NOT whiny?[/quote:d573b34967]

of course[i:d573b34967] some[/i:d573b34967] women are whiny. but what i mean is--how can that ever be justification not to hang out with [i:d573b34967]most[/i:d573b34967] women...maybe i'm not making sense.

just like, i guess, [i:d573b34967]some [/i:d573b34967]vietnamese people are dirty (as are some people of other ethnicities). but that shouldn't ever be used as a justification for hating on most vietnamese people, right?

[mrazntre]

jibberish.....

[kasia]

[quote:8d26580f69="mrazntre"]jibberish.....[/quote:8d26580f69]

rather cowardly way to discard an argument that you cannot respond to, no?

[mrazntre]

and this is coming from someone who has to keep on modifying her statement and reclarifying herself.

why should i participate in an argument that you feel free to change the rules every other second as you please? typical whiny woman syndrome.

[kasia]

i didn't modify anything in this thread!

[SunWuKong]

[quote:6ae0737a7b="inkpainter"]...i think how a woman reacts to other women boils down to one thing....whether she has security issues or not...if she's not insecure she's curious, accepting, and appreciative of other's views...if she has issues, she's defensive, overly oppinionated, and close minded...just my experience.

i hate soap operas....waste of time.. :roll:[/quote:6ae0737a7b]


this hasn't really been my personal experience. on the other hand, plenty of women i know who don't (at least on the surface...) seem to have any security issues are very opinionated (not necessarily a bad thing, mind you), while the insecure ones aren't as opinionated.

[kasia]

[quote:3f5bd5d94c="SunWuKung"]on the other hand, plenty of women i know who don't (at least on the surface...) seem to have any security issues are very opinionated (not necessarily a bad thing, mind you), while the insecure ones aren't as opinionated.[/quote:3f5bd5d94c]

that's exactly what i mean. we're so much quicker to label women as 'whiny' or 'overly-opinionated' or 'overly aggressively' than we are men.

men who are assertive are respected.
women who are assertive are aggressive and bitchy.

[SunWuKong]

[quote:bbe41f7ae0="kasia"][quote:bbe41f7ae0="SunWuKung"]on the other hand, plenty of women i know who don't (at least on the surface...) seem to have any security issues are very opinionated (not necessarily a bad thing, mind you), while the insecure ones aren't as opinionated.[/quote:bbe41f7ae0]

that's exactly what i mean. we're so much quicker to label women as 'whiny' or 'overly-opinionated' or 'overly aggressively' than we are men.

men who are assertive are respected.
women who are assertive are aggressive and bitchy.[/quote:bbe41f7ae0]


hahhah so true. not only that, the media usually portrays women this way, assertive -> aggressive and bitchy.

[princess]

[quote:009dc7b8d1="SunWuKung"][quote:009dc7b8d1="kasia"][quote:009dc7b8d1="SunWuKung"]on the other hand, plenty of women i know who don't (at least on the surface...) seem to have any security issues are very opinionated (not necessarily a bad thing, mind you), while the insecure ones aren't as opinionated.[/quote:009dc7b8d1]

that's exactly what i mean. we're so much quicker to label women as 'whiny' or 'overly-opinionated' or 'overly aggressively' than we are men.

men who are assertive are respected.
women who are assertive are aggressive and bitchy.[/quote:009dc7b8d1]


hahhah so true. not only that, the media usually portrays women this way, assertive -> aggressive and bitchy.[/quote:009dc7b8d1]


reminds of the bitch statement things i say floating around online these days. it redefines bitch to be somewhat positive.

[mrazntre]

[quote:b5b11b2b7a]of course some women are whiny. but what i mean is--how can that ever be justification not to hang out with most women...maybe i'm not making sense.

just like, i guess, some vietnamese people are dirty (as are some people of other ethnicities). but that shouldn't ever be used as a justification for hating on most vietnamese people, right?[/quote:b5b11b2b7a]


that was the modification of your previous statement

[kasia]

actually it's not at all. perhaps you misread. if you can spell out how it is a modification and how it changes my argument, then perhaps i will say that you have a point. making mere blanket conclusions, however, won't do.

[mrazntre]

first you said ALL vietnamese people are dirty, then you changed it to SOME vietnamese people are dirty.

just like you said i shouldn't discount all women for being whiny, when i didn't say anything about discounting every women in the world just because women are stereotyped to be whiny.

nice bullshit reply about blanket conclusions. i know you saw your error and you're just back tracking, trying to place the argument on me so you won't look stupid.

[kasia]

[quote:83876a246f="mrazntre"]first you said ALL vietnamese people are dirty, then you changed it to SOME vietnamese people are dirty.

just like you said i shouldn't discount all women for being whiny, when i didn't say anything about discounting every women in the world just because women are stereotyped to be whiny.

nice bullshit reply about blanket conclusions. i know you saw your error and you're just back tracking, trying to place the argument on me so you won't look stupid.[/quote:83876a246f]

the "all" or "some" has nothing to do with what i'm saying at all. a stereotype is a stereotype whether you are making references to everyone in the group or some of the people in the group.

what i was saying was that a stereotype about women is no different about than a stereotype about a race. however, most people are much more willing to recognize only stereotypes about races for what they are. and you, upon completely failing to comprehend what i said, gave the perfect example of it when you immediately responded with, "but some women are whiny."

[SunWuKong]

what do you think is contributing to the stereotypes about women? i mean besides men's attitudes... :P

[CrX3183]

why do u guys continue to argue over something like this? I for one don't think women are whiny... :roll:

[mrazntre]

If you refer to some, that quantifies to any group of 3 or more, correct? so if you begin to give general statements concerning any group of three or more you will automatically be making a stereotype? even if they are factual statements? so if i say, chinese girls have black hair... is that a stereotype also?

The question that i posed to you, which you blatantly ignored, was "how do we separate reality from underlying tones of stereotyping?" and instead of answering my question, you felt the need to attack my ethnic group due to the deficiencies of your argument. Maybe you need to regroup and rethink your life altering concept of group stereotyping and of ways in which to defend your statement.

[achtungbaby]

I think you two both just touched sensitive nerves, that's all. kasia takes offense to the (near) presumption that women are whiny; tre takes offense to the obviously offensive comment that Vietnamese people are dirty.

As a (sexist) male (pig), sure, I'll be honest, it's easier for me to agree with tre's statement that women are whiny -- christ, aren't they sometimes?!? At least from my "unwhiny" male perspective I guess, and it's certainly more socially acceptable to at least concede to this. But obviously, that's jacked up. If I was a woman, I'd probably say, "Fuck off" too.

[mrazntre]

AB: you're going into a grey area. KC's gonna take your george foreman grill away.

brave man.

*clap clap*

[achtungbaby]

No! I'll starve if that happens!

[kasia]

[quote:36a0860091="mrazntre"]AB: you're going into a grey area. KC's gonna take your george foreman grill away.

brave man.

*clap clap*[/quote:36a0860091]

[i:36a0860091]read carefully.[/i:36a0860091] ab only made my point more explicit for you...or attempted to, at least.

i did not ignore your initial question about regarding the difficulty about separating a stereotype from reality. rather, i wanted to make sure you understood [i:36a0860091]my [/i:36a0860091] initial point that stereotypes about women are no different than those about a race.

hence, your question, "but aren't some women actually whiny, though?" is no less offensive, to me, than the question, "but aren't some vietnamese people actually dirty, though?"

ONCE that is recognized--that these are STEREOTYPES of women, then we can move on to discuss the origin of these stereotypes.

note the title of the thread, "keepin us down"--my original point was that many woman view other woman based on these stereotypes b/c they fail to recognize them as such. this is why we remain in subordinate positions.

[mrazntre]

i'm glad someone made your point more explicit to me since you weren't doing a good job of it anyhow. And since AB is used to your ramblings, he would, of course, be the quickest to understand. And yes you did ignore my question, regardless of whether or not you tried to argue your stereotype concept. Regardless of what point you wanted to relay, you made a poor attempt at doing so.

so if the comment that "aren't some women whiny though?" is offensive, then the statement "aren't some women smarter than others?" is equally offensive, correct?

[kasia]

i'll repeat myself:

hence, your question, "but aren't some women actually whiny, though?" is no less offensive, to me, than the question, "but aren't some vietnamese people actually dirty, though?"

**********
[i:3fb6de5bfc]that[/i:3fb6de5bfc] was my response to your question. a bit rhetorical, but i thought you would catch it.

and again:

ONCE that is recognized--that these are STEREOTYPES of women--THEN we can move on to discuss the origin of these stereotypes.

**********
perhaps it isn't that i am not doing a good enough job articulating myself but rather that you are having difficulty comprehending. or rather you choose not to comprehend. indeed, ab tried to restate my point and you misinterpreted his statements as well!

i really feel that there is no point in repeating and repeating myself once the point has been made. i will be happy to answer to any private messages or IMs if you want to discuss this particular issue further.

[mrazntre]

i'm going to run my errant post again.


so if the comment that "aren't some women whiny though?" is offensive, then the statement "aren't some women smarter than others?" is equally offensive, correct?

rather than me not comprehending your argument, I believe that you have poor arguments lined up to back your statement. Due to the broad scope of your original statement, you left yourself open to criticism.

[SunWuKong]

kasia, correct me if i'm wrong... but what i think you're trying to say is that when people say "but some women [i:b3f95b0504]are[/i:b3f95b0504] whiny", they are trying to justify their stereotypical perception that women are whiny in general - and this justification is itself a result of stereotypical views.


am i right? or have i completely misunderstood you?

[kasia]

[quote:893f388b31="SunWuKung"]kasia, correct me if i'm wrong... but what i think you're trying to say is that when people say "but some women [i:893f388b31]are[/i:893f388b31] whiny", they are trying to justify their stereotypical perception that women are whiny in general - and this justification is itself a result of stereotypical views.


am i right? or have i completely misunderstood you?[/quote:893f388b31]

exactly. i just wanted it to be recognized that it was a stereotype no different and no less offensive from those stereotypes based on a person's race or ethnicity.

once that it recognized, then i will be willing to move on to discuss the origin othese stereotypes. questions such as those asked by mrazntre are legitimate, but fall into this latter category.

[SunWuKong]

but what if someone were to recognize that the statement "women are whiny" is a stereotype but also recognize that there does exist women that are in fact whiny, thus "some women are whiny" would be in fact a true statement and not a stereotype?

[kasia]

i'll answer that question if you replace all the "woman" with "cantonese" and "whiny" with "classless".

[SunWuKong]

[quote:1064154f75="kasia"]i'll answer that question if you replace all the "woman" with "cantonese" and "whiny" with "classless".[/quote:1064154f75]


of course. actually i believe more than just [i:1064154f75]some[/i:1064154f75] cantonese people are classless.

the reason i'm asking you is that your point that the phrase "but some women [i:1064154f75]are[/i:1064154f75] whiny" is based on the fact that this statement serves as a [i:1064154f75]justification[/i:1064154f75] for a stereotypical view. but what if someone is actually not trying to justify any stereotypical view but simply stating as a matter of fact that "some women are whiny"? i mean we [i:1064154f75]do[/i:1064154f75] agree that there exists whiny women, right?

[kasia]

true, of course. there are definitely people who are female who are whiny. but in commenting on their whininess (word?), why must we first be classify them as women? why can't we just say, "i know some people that are whiny?" what does the fact that they are women have to do with the fact that they are whiny? we may all know people who have big feet who are whiny. but we don't say, "some people who have big feet are whiny."

rather, in stating, "some women are whiny" we are drawing a correlation between the fact that they are whiny and the fact that they are women.

[SunWuKong]

[quote:8698881b4b="kasia"]true, of course. there are definitely people who are female who are whiny. but in commenting on their whininess (word?), why must we first be classify them as women? why can't we just say, "i know some people that are whiny?" what does the fact that they are women have to do with the fact that they are whiny? we may all know people who have big feet who are whiny. but we don't say, "some people who have big feet are whiny."

rather, in stating, "some women are whiny" we are drawing a correlation between the fact that they are whiny and the fact that they are women.[/quote:8698881b4b]


well put. :wink:

[mrazntre]

perhaps the correlation is actual fact - that those whiny people are actually women.

i think Kasia is trying to be an asian Gloria Allred, and although I have nothing against the feminist movement, I do believe that the baseless accusations that a statement concerning any group of people is automatically racist.

Anyone? what do you other people out there think? Do you agree with me or KAsia?

[SunWuKong]

[quote:0418585514="mrazntre"]perhaps the correlation is actual fact - that those whiny people are actually women.[/quote:0418585514]


this may be true if whoever said it was referring to a specific group of women.

but as a general statement, "some women are whiny", by virtue of correlating "whiny" to "women", is explicitly excluding men as whiny or implying that [i:0418585514]of[/i:0418585514] those women who are whiny, they are whinier than men who are whiny.

now, bearing what i just said, as a general statement, saying that "some women are whiny" cannot very reasonably be a [i:0418585514]fact[/i:0418585514]. which leaves it to be an opinion...

[mrazntre]

so what would it be if it was more than an opinion? Although there are different levels of which people define whiny, is there any truth in that some women are whiny? In a sense, to you --if you are referring to some women being whiny -- it would be a truthful statement, right? And a truthful statement in regards to your opinion would be factual in your eyes.

[quote:156c8c5345]but as a general statement, "some women are whiny", by virtue of correlating "whiny" to "women", is explicitly excluding men as whiny or implying that of those women who are whiny, they are whinier than men who are whiny. [/quote:156c8c5345]

I don't think that this has any bearing on the argument at hand simply because we are specifically talking about women, not men. If this had been a thread concerning "whiny people" and the main theme tended towards women being whiny, I would have no choice but to agree with you. However, since this thread is specifically addressed to women, I don't see any basis for that particular argument.[/i]

[SunWuKong]

[quote:e770252002="mrazntre"][quote:e770252002]but as a general statement, "some women are whiny", by virtue of correlating "whiny" to "women", is explicitly excluding men as whiny or implying that of those women who are whiny, they are whinier than men who are whiny. [/quote:e770252002]

I don't think that this has any bearing on the argument at hand simply because we are specifically talking about women, not men. If this had been a thread concerning "whiny people" and the main theme tended towards women being whiny, I would have no choice but to agree with you. However, since this thread is specifically addressed to women, I don't see any basis for that particular argument.[/quote:e770252002]


but of course it is also about men. whenever you make a general reference to women, you are excluding men. and in this case, the statement "some women are whiny" would point the correlation of whiny to women - and in the process excluding men as whiny. in a strictly logical statement this would not be true. however we are not talking about making statements of logic, we are talking about how people talk. the statement "men are pigs" would exclude women from being pigs, and the statement "women are whiny" would exclude men from being whiny.

and if a person is of the opinion that women are more whiny, then that is fine. it may be a stereotypical opinion, however.

[mrazntre]

so basically you're saying that we all need to change our way of thinking so that instead of making a general reference to a particular group, we must also include a disclaimer saying that it may also be applied to the opposite group? i understand what you're saying, but this world would be one of asteriks.

[SunWuKong]

[quote:a67d9e7a2f="mrazntre"]so basically you're saying that we all need to change our way of thinking so that instead of making a general reference to a particular group, we must also include a disclaimer saying that it may also be applied to the opposite group? i understand what you're saying, but this world would be one of asteriks.[/quote:a67d9e7a2f]


i don't know if it's something that we [i:a67d9e7a2f]need[/i:a67d9e7a2f] to do. but i think when you realize you're expressing a stereotypical opinion, alot of times you'll want to change the way it's presented. at least this is the case with me.

[kasia]

correct me if i'm wrong...

along the line on mrazntre's argument, wouldn't it be perfectly fine to say that 'vietnamese people are dirty' because we wouldn't be, logically, singling vietnamese people out just by virtue of failing to name other ethnicities?

[mrazntre]

so in the same breath, we can say that chinese people are more annoying than the taco bell dog, yet does that leave out the other dogs in the world? So in this case, are we insulting the dogs? or chinese people?

[kasia]

[quote:0653f27529="mrazntre"]so in the same breath, we can say that chinese people are more annoying than the taco bell dog, yet does that leave out the other dogs in the world? So in this case, are we insulting the dogs? or chinese people?[/quote:0653f27529]

dude, i am so confused.

[SunWuKong]

[quote:a7e6289509="kasia"]correct me if i'm wrong...

along the line on mrazntre's argument, wouldn't it be perfectly fine to say that 'vietnamese people are dirty' because we wouldn't be, logically, singling vietnamese people out just by virtue of failing to name other ethnicities?[/quote:a7e6289509]


in a strictly logical statement, "vietnamese people are dirty" does not say anything about any other people. this is the same as saying "x = 1", which doesn't exclude "y" from also equalling 1.

however, in normal conversation, if it is the contention of the speaker that people are all equally dirty, then one does not make a reference to vietnamese people. as such, during the course of a normal conversation, if a speaker was to say "vietnamese people are dirty", he is excluding other people that he knows from being dirty, or stating that vietnamese people are dirtier than other people he knows.

if normal everyday people talked like logicians or computer scientist geeks, then there would not be this difference.