profiling of muslims and arab-americans

[kasia]

St. Louis Post-Dispatch
2/11/2003

FBI questioning stuns Muslim arrested at his home

St. Louis man says his views aren't mainstream, but adds he's no terrorist
By PHILLIP O'CONNOR

Police arrested an American-born Muslim in St. Louis early Sunday and took him to a police station where FBI agents questioned him about his anti-war activities and whether he was planning any attacks against the U.S.
government. Bret Darren Lee, whose Muslim name is Umar ben-Livan, said Monday that he was stunned by the questions.

"I just looked at them," Lee said of his interrogators. "I didn't think they'd asked me anything worth responding to."

Lee, 28, said he is active in Muslim and anti-war groups and acknowledged that he holds views that may be considered outside the political mainstream. But Lee said he is far from a terrorist. "I am very much an American," said Lee, who attended McCluer North High School and converted to Islam 11 years ago. He works at a Blockbuster store. "To insinuate that just because I'm a Muslim I'm a threat is an insult to me, because I'm just as much an American as they are," he said.

Lee, who calls himself Umar Lee for the sake of simplicity, blamed his arrest on religious profiling and a shift in emphasis by the FBI and local law enforcement toward counter-terrorism. "They have to do something to justify
their budgets," he said.

The FBI and police declined to comment on Lee's arrest or interrogation. Lee said he was sleeping in his apartment in the 4000 block of Hydraulic Street about 5 a.m. Sunday when awakened by loud knocking at his door. He said he thought it might be a Muslim neighbor waking him for prayers. Instead, several police officers barged in with weapons drawn, put Lee up against a wall and asked whether he had any weapons in the apartment, Lee said. A National Rifle Association sticker is affixed to the apartment's front door. "I told them that's my cheap version of an alarm system. I don't have any guns," Lee said he replied. He was handcuffed and taken to a squad car.

Police spent about 45 minutes searching his apartment and removed a box of documents, including Lee's passport, fliers related to Muslim community events and anti-war protests and articles Lee had written for Web-based publications. The documents were later returned. Police arrested Lee on a fugitive warrant out of Lee's Summit, Mo. Lee blamed the warrant on a bureaucratic mix-up. He said he was unaware he needed to
report to Missouri probation officials after being released from federal prison following a 1999 bank fraud conviction. He said he believed police used the probation violation as a pretext for his arrest and interrogation.
"It's obvious," he said. "They never even asked me about the probation violation."

While Lee was still in custody, FBI agents returned to Lee's apartment about noon Sunday and spent a half-hour questioning his wife about whether he was a terrorist, his thoughts about the Taliban, and whether he was planning to take part in any more anti-war protests.

At the station, FBI agents and a police investigator spent about 30 minutes asking similar questions of Lee. He said they also asked him about the activities of other local anti-war protesters, including Tim Kaminski, a
friend who is also an American-born Muslim.

Lee posted $4,500 bail and was released late Sunday night.

[himura-dono]

:o shit....

put a texan redneck with too much time and no responsibility in office, and this is what happens....[/generalization]

[rakovlam]

A Muslim with ties to anti-war groups and a criminal record? I'd say that's a pretty good profile. This is a far cry from the stuff done during Vietnam and World War II.

[kasia]

i know a lot of people who have criminal records and have ties to anti-war groups. they don't get arrested in the middle of the night for no reason. being muslim is not a crime.

is this a far cry from why went on during wwII? is this a good profile during the WWII setting? man walking around the streets at night, violating the curfew set by the government, who was Japanese. hirabayashi's case came before korematsu's. the arrest of this muslim man is only a precursor to the internment of arab-americans.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by kasia@Feb 14 2003, 05:03 AM
the arrest of this muslim man is only a precursor to the internment of arab-americans.
Have a little faith in the country man. That will never ever happen again. People have been educated about the Japanese internment, the 60's happened, schools make it a rule to teach about diversity. The mjority of Americans would never stand for such a thing. And if they ever did, I'd give up my citizenship and get the hell out.

[kasia]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Feb 13 2003, 09:20 PM
Have a little faith in the country man. That will never ever happen again. People have been educated about the Japanese internment, the 60's happened, schools make it a rule to teach about diversity. The mjority of Americans would never stand for such a thing. And if they ever did, I'd give up my citizenship and get the hell out.
so how would you explain what is happening to the arab-americans? one would think that we've learned from the Japanese internment that racial profiling is wrong.

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Feb 13 2003, 11:20 PM
Have a little faith in the country man. That will never ever happen again.
never say never. i believe chances are minute, but not zero.

People have been educated about the Japanese internment, the 60's happened, schools make it a rule to teach about diversity.  The mjority of Americans would never stand for such a thing.
give the US one or two more 9/11's and then see how they react. i think ANY country faced with a situation like that would put freedoms on lockdown. and even tho i'm mostly a small gov't guy, i don't know that i could blame them in that situation.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by kasia@Feb 14 2003, 05:25 AM
so how would you explain what is happening to the arab-americans? one would think that we've learned from the Japanese internment that racial profiling is wrong.
Racial profiling and internment of citizens are two completly different things. No one learned from the internment situation that racial profiling was wrong, they learned it was wrong to imprison a mass group US citizens who have done no wrong based on their race.

I agree that racial profiling is wrong, but it's certainly not internment. You're comparing smoking tobacco to smoking crack.

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Feb 13 2003, 11:36 PM
You're comparing smoking tobacco to smoking crack.
i'd say its more like smoking weed vs smoking crack.

[kitty]

I agree... racial profiling is just a baby step to internment. And besides, Coble seems more than willing to start up internment all over again.

[DragonKnight]

One of my greatest fears is that I'm gonna get a phone call from one of my closest friends who is a Muslim. My fear is that he's gonna tell me he's gonna leave the country cause his whole family just went through the above situation. That they had their entire lives turned upside down just cause they were Muslim and that they were from Iraqi descent. That he can't stand being a country that says will stand for freedom yet tears his and his family's away due to the fact that they somehow 'fit' a profile.

So far, nothing serious has happened to them. But it sucks watching your back to make sure no one is tailing you or eavesdropping on your family dinner. <_<

[rakovlam]

I agree... racial profiling is just a baby step to internment. And besides, Coble seems more than willing to start up internment all over again.

"Today we can certainly look back and see the damage that was caused because of this decision; We all now know that this was in fact the wrong decision and an action that should never be repeated." -Howard Coble

Does everything have to be baby steps? Does that mean we're banning weed because that has been said to be the baby steps to harder drugs.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by rakovlam@Feb 14 2003, 07:06 AM


Does everything have to be baby steps? Does that mean we're banning weed because that has been said to be the baby steps to harder drugs.
Uh, weed IS banned.

[rakovlam]

Uh, weed IS banned

not in every state

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by rakovlam@Feb 13 2003, 11:12 PM
not in every state
Which state are you referring to? It's legal in California for medicinal purposes only, but I wasn't aware of other states...

[kasia]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Feb 13 2003, 09:36 PM
Racial profiling and internment of citizens are two completly different things. No one learned from the internment situation that racial profiling was wrong, they learned it was wrong to imprison a mass group US citizens who have done no wrong based on their race.

using your words, to imprison a mass group of US citizens who ave done no wrong based on their race is a form of - guess - racial profiling.

[FlareZz]

also think of hate crimes. As racial profiling gets more and more accepted, i can imagine the level of hate crimes directed towards arab-americans to also rise drastically. The two subjects are closely tied together.
i haven't seen any recent statistics regarding it, but after 911 there was a jump of around 600 REPORTED hate crimes within 1 week. And since the hate crime enforcement bill (llea) failed to pass last summer...

be wary, not just of the government...

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by kasia@Feb 14 2003, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Feb 13 2003, 09:36 PM
Racial profiling and internment of citizens are two completly different things. &nbsp;No one learned from the internment situation that racial profiling was wrong, they learned it was wrong to imprison a mass group US citizens who have done no wrong based on their race.

using your words, to imprison a mass group of US citizens who ave done no wrong based on their race is a form of - guess - racial profiling.
Yes, that is a form of racial profiling, but it is also an extreme. Keeping a watchful eye on a certain group without restrcting their freedom to move about and interact with the rest of society, and gathering them together to isolate them from the rest of society are two very very different things! The second is much much worse than the first. People have learned that the second, internment, is bad and should not be repeated.

Again using the marijuana/crack metaphor. People learned from smoking crack that smoking crack is bad, but that doesn't mean that they will all agree that smoking marijuana is bad.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Feb 13 2003, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by rakovlam@Feb 14 2003, 07:06 AM


Does everything have to be baby steps? &nbsp;Does that mean we're banning weed because that has been said to be the baby steps to harder drugs.
Uh, weed IS banned.
It is????????? Oh ......fuck

[kasia]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Feb 14 2003, 05:36 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Feb 14 2003, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Feb 13 2003, 09:36 PM
Racial profiling and internment of citizens are two completly different things. No one learned from the internment situation that racial profiling was wrong, they learned it was wrong to imprison a mass group US citizens who have done no wrong based on their race.

using your words, to imprison a mass group of US citizens who ave done no wrong based on their race is a form of - guess - racial profiling.
Yes, that is a form of racial profiling, but it is also an extreme. Keeping a watchful eye on a certain group without restrcting their freedom to move about and interact with the rest of society, and gathering them together to isolate them from the rest of society are two very very different things! The second is much much worse than the first. People have learned that the second, internment, is bad and should not be repeated.

Again using the marijuana/crack metaphor. People learned from smoking crack that smoking crack is bad, but that doesn't mean that they will all agree that smoking marijuana is bad.
i think most drug users are aware of the slippery slope.

[Hito]

Arabs in america are facing a sort of interment.
Where they are being forced to regester with the INS and then being arrested and held for long periods of time and not being allowed acces to legal representaiton.

[Commando_turned_MD]

The best thing since the invention of the wheel........
Lets round them all up..........Yewhawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

[kasia]

Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 10:20 AM
The best thing since the invention of the wheel........
Lets round them all up..........Yewhawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
who's them?

[Hito]

Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 11:20 AM
The best thing since the invention of the wheel........
Lets round them all up..........Yewhawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
Why dont we just kill "them" all and let god sort "them" out...
<_<

[Commando_turned_MD]

ARAB..............Granted there are many good ones, it's the bad that fucks it up for everyone..........
Just like Africians-Americans.........Whenever I see a Black youth dressing like a gangsta, the only thing that pops in my mind is that he's/she's a thug, murdered, crook, THE ULTIMATE BANE to society.........
If I could do legally, I would kill everyone of them........Make the streets safer for the hardworking folks..................
Samething with Mexicans..................
Samething with Asians....................

THIS IS MY UTOPIA..........Free of dirtbags.........................
And I would crown myself as RULER........

[Commando_turned_MD]

Originally posted by Hito@Feb 14 2003, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 11:20 AM
The best thing since the invention of the wheel........
Lets round them all up..........Yewhawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
Why dont we just kill "them" all and let god sort "them" out...
<_<
SOUNDS GOOD TO ME..... :lol:
I know your joking.............BUT ITS A GREAT PLAN.........LET their god sort them out..........

[Hito]

Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 11:34 AM
ARAB..............Granted there are many good ones, it's the bad that fucks it up for everyone..........
Just like Africians-Americans.........Whenever I see a Black youth dressing like a gangsta, the only thing that pops in my mind is that he's/she's a thug, murdered, crook, THE ULTIMATE BANE to society.........
If I could do legally, I would kill everyone of them........Make the streets safer for the hardworking folks..................
Samething with Mexicans..................
Samething with Asians....................

THIS IS MY UTOPIA..........Free of dirtbags.........................
And I would crown myself as RULER........
There are some cats in the world who would think you are a dirt bag and scum by virtue of your just having brown skin.

What if they wanted u dead based on that?

[kasia]

Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 10:34 AM
ARAB..............Granted there are many good ones, it's the bad that fucks it up for everyone..........
Just like Africians-Americans.........Whenever I see a Black youth dressing like a gangsta, the only thing that pops in my mind is that he's/she's a thug, murdered, crook, THE ULTIMATE BANE to society.........
If I could do legally, I would kill everyone of them........Make the streets safer for the hardworking folks..................
Samething with Mexicans..................
Samething with Asians....................

THIS IS MY UTOPIA..........Free of dirtbags.........................
And I would crown myself as RULER........
aren't you vietnamese? i know very many vietnamese people who aren't upstanding citizens. shouldn't throw stones in you live in a glass house. and i by no means am directing that towards only vietnamese people. i'm chinese and i know a lot of chinese people who are thugs too. same with every other ethnicity.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by kasia@Feb 14 2003, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 10:34 AM
ARAB..............Granted there are many good ones, it's the bad that fucks it up for everyone..........
Just like Africians-Americans.........Whenever I see a Black youth dressing like a gangsta, the only thing that pops in my mind is that he's/she's a thug, murdered, crook, THE ULTIMATE BANE to society.........
If I could do legally, I would kill everyone of them........Make the streets safer for the hardworking folks..................
Samething with Mexicans..................
Samething with Asians....................

THIS IS MY UTOPIA..........Free of dirtbags.........................
And I would crown myself as RULER........
aren't you vietnamese? i know very many vietnamese people who aren't upstanding citizens. shouldn't throw stones in you live in a glass house. and i by no means am directing that towards only vietnamese people. i'm chinese and i know a lot of chinese people who are thugs too. same with every other ethnicity.
ArmyMan doesn't sound like no Viet boy to me...oh well....this is the internet...people will do what they will.

[DragonKnight]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Feb 14 2003, 10:46 AM
ArmyMan doesn't sound like no Viet boy to me...oh well....this is the internet...people will do what they will.
Maybe he's confused.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by DragonKnight@Feb 14 2003, 11:21 AM
Maybe he's confused.
Maybe he's white on the outside and all Pho on the inside.

[Commando_turned_MD]

Originally posted by kasia@Feb 14 2003, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 10:34 AM
ARAB..............Granted there are many good ones, it's the bad that fucks it up for everyone..........
Just like Africians-Americans.........Whenever I see a Black youth dressing like a gangsta, the only thing that pops in my mind is that he's/she's a thug, murdered, crook, THE ULTIMATE BANE to society.........
If I could do legally, I would kill everyone of them........Make the streets safer for the hardworking folks..................
Samething with Mexicans..................
Samething with Asians....................

THIS IS MY UTOPIA..........Free of dirtbags.........................
And I would crown myself as RULER........
aren't you vietnamese? i know very many vietnamese people who aren't upstanding citizens. shouldn't throw stones in you live in a glass house. and i by no means am directing that towards only vietnamese people. i'm chinese and i know a lot of chinese people who are thugs too. same with every other ethnicity.
Kasia,

Yes I'm Vietnamese......

There are lots of Vietnamese people who should be shot, for the goodness of society.......Basically anyone is a bane to society----by there actions and demeanor, e.g. gangbangers or pesudo-gangbangers, murders, etc......etc.....

I would be honor to do the deed; killing these fucking Vietnamese dirt bags.

I dont play favors or descriminate... :lol:

[Commando_turned_MD]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Feb 14 2003, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Feb 14 2003, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 10:34 AM
ARAB..............Granted there are many good ones, it's the bad that fucks it up for everyone..........
Just like Africians-Americans.........Whenever I see a Black youth dressing like a gangsta, the only thing that pops in my mind is that he's/she's a thug, murdered, crook, THE ULTIMATE BANE to society.........
If I could do legally, I would kill everyone of them........Make the streets safer for the hardworking folks..................
Samething with Mexicans..................
Samething with Asians....................

THIS IS MY UTOPIA..........Free of dirtbags.........................
And I would crown myself as RULER........
aren't you vietnamese? i know very many vietnamese people who aren't upstanding citizens. shouldn't throw stones in you live in a glass house. and i by no means am directing that towards only vietnamese people. i'm chinese and i know a lot of chinese people who are thugs too. same with every other ethnicity.
ArmyMan doesn't sound like no Viet boy to me...oh well....this is the internet...people will do what they will.
You're right Pizza.....

I'm not a Viet boy. I'm a white boy in disguise.........

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Feb 14 2003, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Feb 14 2003, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 10:34 AM
ARAB..............Granted there are many good ones, it's the bad that fucks it up for everyone..........
Just like Africians-Americans.........Whenever I see a Black youth dressing like a gangsta, the only thing that pops in my mind is that he's/she's a thug, murdered, crook, THE ULTIMATE BANE to society.........
If I could do legally, I would kill everyone of them........Make the streets safer for the hardworking folks..................
Samething with Mexicans..................
Samething with Asians....................

THIS IS MY UTOPIA..........Free of dirtbags.........................
And I would crown myself as RULER........
aren't you vietnamese? i know very many vietnamese people who aren't upstanding citizens. shouldn't throw stones in you live in a glass house. and i by no means am directing that towards only vietnamese people. i'm chinese and i know a lot of chinese people who are thugs too. same with every other ethnicity.
ArmyMan doesn't sound like no Viet boy to me...oh well....this is the internet...people will do what they will.
You're right Pizza.....

I'm not a Viet boy. I'm a white boy in disguise.........
Well sheesh, why didn't you just say so in the first place? We woulda accepted ya :lol:

[Commando_turned_MD]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Feb 14 2003, 11:25 AM
Maybe he's white on the outside and all Pho on the inside.
Or maybe I'm like a banana.......White on the inside and yellow on the outside

[Commando_turned_MD]

Originally posted by DragonKnight@Feb 14 2003, 11:21 AM
Maybe he's confused.
nah

[kasia]

Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by kasia@Feb 14 2003, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 10:34 AM
ARAB..............Granted there are many good ones, it's the bad that fucks it up for everyone..........
Just like Africians-Americans.........Whenever I see a Black youth dressing like a gangsta, the only thing that pops in my mind is that he's/she's a thug, murdered, crook, THE ULTIMATE BANE to society.........
If I could do legally, I would kill everyone of them........Make the streets safer for the hardworking folks..................
Samething with Mexicans..................
Samething with Asians....................

THIS IS MY UTOPIA..........Free of dirtbags.........................
And I would crown myself as RULER........
aren't you vietnamese? i know very many vietnamese people who aren't upstanding citizens. shouldn't throw stones in you live in a glass house. and i by no means am directing that towards only vietnamese people. i'm chinese and i know a lot of chinese people who are thugs too. same with every other ethnicity.
Kasia,

Yes I'm Vietnamese......

There are lots of Vietnamese people who should be shot, for the goodness of society.......Basically anyone is a bane to society----by there actions and demeanor, e.g. gangbangers or pesudo-gangbangers, murders, etc......etc.....

I would be honor to do the deed; killing these fucking Vietnamese dirt bags.

I dont play favors or descriminate... :lol:
oh, but you do. with arab-americans, you were saying, because of the few, the entire group should be killed. you said that the few "ruined it for the rest". why are you not applying this logic to your own ethnicity?

[Commando_turned_MD]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Feb 14 2003, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Feb 14 2003, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Feb 14 2003, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 10:34 AM
ARAB..............Granted there are many good ones, it's the bad that fucks it up for everyone..........
Just like Africians-Americans.........Whenever I see a Black youth dressing like a gangsta, the only thing that pops in my mind is that he's/she's a thug, murdered, crook, THE ULTIMATE BANE to society.........
If I could do legally, I would kill everyone of them........Make the streets safer for the hardworking folks..................
Samething with Mexicans..................
Samething with Asians....................

THIS IS MY UTOPIA..........Free of dirtbags.........................
And I would crown myself as RULER........
aren't you vietnamese? i know very many vietnamese people who aren't upstanding citizens. shouldn't throw stones in you live in a glass house. and i by no means am directing that towards only vietnamese people. i'm chinese and i know a lot of chinese people who are thugs too. same with every other ethnicity.
ArmyMan doesn't sound like no Viet boy to me...oh well....this is the internet...people will do what they will.
You're right Pizza.....

I'm not a Viet boy. I'm a white boy in disguise.........
Well sheesh, why didn't you just say so in the first place? We woulda accepted ya :lol:
Darn................

:lol:

Okay, everyone.............I need to come clean........I'm actually a white boy.........I didn;t think I was going to be welcome here......but I was wrong........Pizza accepts me for who I am.....Thank you Pizza.....

I feel ton has been lifted off my chest....... :lol:

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Feb 14 2003, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Feb 14 2003, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Feb 14 2003, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 10:34 AM
ARAB..............Granted there are many good ones, it's the bad that fucks it up for everyone..........
Just like Africians-Americans.........Whenever I see a Black youth dressing like a gangsta, the only thing that pops in my mind is that he's/she's a thug, murdered, crook, THE ULTIMATE BANE to society.........
If I could do legally, I would kill everyone of them........Make the streets safer for the hardworking folks..................
Samething with Mexicans..................
Samething with Asians....................

THIS IS MY UTOPIA..........Free of dirtbags.........................
And I would crown myself as RULER........
aren't you vietnamese? i know very many vietnamese people who aren't upstanding citizens. shouldn't throw stones in you live in a glass house. and i by no means am directing that towards only vietnamese people. i'm chinese and i know a lot of chinese people who are thugs too. same with every other ethnicity.
ArmyMan doesn't sound like no Viet boy to me...oh well....this is the internet...people will do what they will.
You're right Pizza.....

I'm not a Viet boy. I'm a white boy in disguise.........
Well sheesh, why didn't you just say so in the first place? We woulda accepted ya :lol:
Darn................

:lol:

Okay, everyone.............I need to come clean........I'm actually a white boy.........I didn;t think I was going to be welcome here......but I was wrong........Pizza accepts me for who I am.....Thank you Pizza.....

I feel ton has been lifted off my chest....... :lol:
Don't thank me. Thank my parents who gave me this open-minded super-liberal attitude to accept people of all colors no matter how close-minded they are.

[Commando_turned_MD]

Originally posted by kasia@Feb 14 2003, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by kasia@Feb 14 2003, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 10:34 AM
ARAB..............Granted there are many good ones, it's the bad that fucks it up for everyone..........
Just like Africians-Americans.........Whenever I see a Black youth dressing like a gangsta, the only thing that pops in my mind is that he's/she's a thug, murdered, crook, THE ULTIMATE BANE to society.........
If I could do legally, I would kill everyone of them........Make the streets safer for the hardworking folks..................
Samething with Mexicans..................
Samething with Asians....................

THIS IS MY UTOPIA..........Free of dirtbags.........................
And I would crown myself as RULER........
aren't you vietnamese? i know very many vietnamese people who aren't upstanding citizens. shouldn't throw stones in you live in a glass house. and i by no means am directing that towards only vietnamese people. i'm chinese and i know a lot of chinese people who are thugs too. same with every other ethnicity.
Kasia,

Yes I'm Vietnamese......

There are lots of Vietnamese people who should be shot, for the goodness of society.......Basically anyone is a bane to society----by there actions and demeanor, e.g. gangbangers or pesudo-gangbangers, murders, etc......etc.....

I would be honor to do the deed; killing these fucking Vietnamese dirt bags.

I dont play favors or descriminate... :lol:
oh, but you do. with arab-americans, you were saying, because of the few, the entire group should be killed. you said that the few "ruined it for the rest". why are you not applying this logic to your own ethnicity?
If somehow the vietnamese folks are bombing and killing innocent americans, I would NOT mine at all if Every vietnamese person is subjected to scrutiny.......If it means peace of mind for the innocent folks, It;s A.OKAY with me :lol:


But the chances of that happening is donut......------------

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by kasia@Feb 14 2003, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by kasia@Feb 14 2003, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 10:34 AM
ARAB..............Granted there are many good ones, it's the bad that fucks it up for everyone..........
Just like Africians-Americans.........Whenever I see a Black youth dressing like a gangsta, the only thing that pops in my mind is that he's/she's a thug, murdered, crook, THE ULTIMATE BANE to society.........
If I could do legally, I would kill everyone of them........Make the streets safer for the hardworking folks..................
Samething with Mexicans..................
Samething with Asians....................

THIS IS MY UTOPIA..........Free of dirtbags.........................
And I would crown myself as RULER........
aren't you vietnamese? i know very many vietnamese people who aren't upstanding citizens. shouldn't throw stones in you live in a glass house. and i by no means am directing that towards only vietnamese people. i'm chinese and i know a lot of chinese people who are thugs too. same with every other ethnicity.
Kasia,

Yes I'm Vietnamese......

There are lots of Vietnamese people who should be shot, for the goodness of society.......Basically anyone is a bane to society----by there actions and demeanor, e.g. gangbangers or pesudo-gangbangers, murders, etc......etc.....

I would be honor to do the deed; killing these fucking Vietnamese dirt bags.

I dont play favors or descriminate... :lol:
oh, but you do. with arab-americans, you were saying, because of the few, the entire group should be killed. you said that the few "ruined it for the rest". why are you not applying this logic to your own ethnicity?
If somehow the vietnamese folks are bombing and killing innocent americans, I would NOT mine at all if Every vietnamese person is subjected to scrutiny.......If it means peace of mind for the innocent folks, It;s A.OKAY with me :lol:


But the chances of that happening is donut......------------
:lol: :lol: Also, Viets are usually never this humorous, that's another way I could tell

[deez nuts]

/Kicks army_commando. A real soldier never gives up his cover no matter how heavy the pressure is. What the hell are you doing, soldier! Even I know that. You just jeopardized "Operation: Hostess Twinkie"


Look how long the snipers are keeping their mouths shut!

G. UNIT!

[DragonKnight]

Maybe he's a troll. :HH:

[kasia]

let's stay on the topic.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 14 2003, 12:31 PM
Okay, everyone.............I need to come clean........I'm actually a white boy.........I didn;t think I was going to be welcome here......but I was wrong........Pizza accepts me for who I am.....Thank you Pizza.....

I feel ton has been lifted off my chest....... :lol:
:HH:

[rakovlam]

Back in WW2, the Japanese were interned....yet, as we were at war with Hitler and Mussolini, no German or Italian-Americans were racially profiled or interned...

cough* cough* Undue Process: The Untold Story of America's German Alien Internees by Arnold Krammer. We've cleared this up a while ago. I think it cost me a pair of testicles to make my point.

[Commando_turned_MD]

This reminds me of a movie several years ago with Denzels Washington and Bruce Willis................can't recall the title................But they rounded up all Arabic folks.............GOOD IDEA given the current situation.........

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 15 2003, 10:18 PM
This reminds me of a movie several years ago with Denzels Washington and Bruce Willis................can't recall the title................But they rounded up all Arabic folks.............GOOD IDEA given the current situation.........
I have a question: are you here only to piss people off with blatantly offensive statements?

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 15 2003, 10:18 PM
This reminds me of a movie several years ago with Denzels Washington and Bruce Willis................can't recall the title................But they rounded up all Arabic folks.............GOOD IDEA given the current situation.........
You mean The Siege......

:gross:

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by kasia@Feb 14 2003, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Feb 14 2003, 05:36 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Feb 14 2003, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Feb 13 2003, 09:36 PM
Racial profiling and internment of citizens are two completly different things. No one learned from the internment situation that racial profiling was wrong, they learned it was wrong to imprison a mass group US citizens who have done no wrong based on their race.

using your words, to imprison a mass group of US citizens who ave done no wrong based on their race is a form of - guess - racial profiling.
Yes, that is a form of racial profiling, but it is also an extreme. Keeping a watchful eye on a certain group without restrcting their freedom to move about and interact with the rest of society, and gathering them together to isolate them from the rest of society are two very very different things! The second is much much worse than the first. People have learned that the second, internment, is bad and should not be repeated.

Again using the marijuana/crack metaphor. People learned from smoking crack that smoking crack is bad, but that doesn't mean that they will all agree that smoking marijuana is bad.
i think most drug users are aware of the slippery slope.
Yes they are, but if you smoked crack FIRST, then you're not going to know about marijuana being bad until you do that too.


Nevermind that analogy obviously doesnt relate.

But all I am saying is, yes, they are both forms of racial profiling, but the type that happened during WW2 was far worse than the kind that may happen or is happeneing now.

America has not learned from interning Japanese Americans, that observing specifically Arabs and Arab-Americans is wrong. It has learned that interning them is wrong.

In my opinion, both are wrong, but obviously the rest of the nation does not agree with me, or we wouldn't be debating this right now.

[kitty]

worse sure but it still allows for a mentality that thinks it's okay to racially profile. i think all forms of racial profiling should be removed from the system to favour forms of crime prevention that actually work.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by kittygirl@Feb 17 2003, 02:52 AM
worse sure but it still allows for a mentality that thinks it's okay to racially profile. i think all forms of racial profiling should be removed from the system to favour forms of crime prevention that actually work.
Which ones work?

[kitty]

Well, there's a lot of stastical evidence suggesting that racial profiling doesn't work. And I heard from a friend who heard from a Democratic representative that he'd like to implement a program in airports that stops racial profiling but still looks at potential terrorists. Follow anyone who has: paid for a ticket last minute and paid for a ticket with cash. This implies someone is in a rush, is last minute, and doesn't want his information tracked... i.e. potential terrorist because this is certainly fish behavior. And is probably more likely to yield a terrorist than searching all Arab Americans. Terrorism has nothing to do with race, so why are we using race to decide who could be a threat? Because it's psychologically convenient.

And there's evidence that the only reason blacks seem to have such a high crime rate is because of racial profiling, i.e. being stopped more often and randomly searched. If police did that to whites or asians, their crime rates would go up as well.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by kittygirl@Feb 17 2003, 03:03 AM
Well, there's a lot of stastical evidence suggesting that racial profiling doesn't work. And I heard from a friend who heard from a Democratic representative that he'd like to implement a program in airports that stops racial profiling but still looks at potential terrorists. Follow anyone who has: paid for a ticket last minute and paid for a ticket with cash. This implies someone is in a rush, is last minute, and doesn't want his information tracked... i.e. potential terrorist because this is certainly fish behavior. And is probably more likely to yield a terrorist than searching all Arab Americans. Terrorism has nothing to do with race, so why are we using race to decide who could be a threat? Because it's psychologically convenient.

And there's evidence that the only reason blacks seem to have such a high crime rate is because of racial profiling, i.e. being stopped more often and randomly searched. If police did that to whites or asians, their crime rates would go up as well.
Okay fine, but then terrorists will just plan further in advance to do what they are doing.

[kitty]

Sure, but there are other ways to determine who might be suspicious... like people traveling long distances w/out any baggage. People who supply odd forms of identification. Why is stopping all Arab Americans going to result in anything? There are *white* terrorists too.

[rakovlam]

Sure, but there are other ways to determine who might be suspicious... like people traveling long distances w/out any baggage. People who supply odd forms of identification. Why is stopping all Arab Americans going to result in anything? There are *white* terrorists too.


If you are talking about the IRA, that has nothing to do with the US. If are talking about the freak shows of militant supremist groups, I don't recall white bigots hijacking airplanes and crashing them into buildings. Terrorists come in all colors, but it seems that Arabs have been racking up their number of Americans killed over the last few decades. Let's see... Israeli Olympians, Khobar Towers, barracks in Beirut, Pan Am flight over Lockerbie, Scotland, embassies in Kenya and Tansania, USS Cole, WTC I, WTC II, Pentagon, every god damn suicide bombing in Israel... all planned, sponsored, and perpetuated by Middle Eastern men. I'd say Arab-American fit a very good profile of people that look like guys that like to kill Americans.

And there's evidence that the only reason blacks seem to have such a high crime rate is because of racial profiling, i.e. being stopped more often and randomly searched. If police did that to whites or asians, their crime rates would go up as well.

Actually, crime went up when police STOPPED racial profiling. Take the profile-free city of Cincinatti. Their crime rates went way up after the Timothy Thomas incident.

[kitty]

stopped racial profiling but continued to check people as vigorously as they normally would? police stop a lot of cars who have blacks in them, just to see if it's stolen. if they stop racial profiling, they won't stop as many cars so many crimes may take place after the fact...

Timothy McVeigh. Terrorists also come in all types of willingness to kill and it's a broad an inaccurate generalization to assume only Middle Eastern men are the people willing to murder.

And the suicide bombings killed Israeli. Are Israeli default Americans? Or just white people so their lives are worth more than the brown peoples?

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by rakovlam@Feb 17 2003, 04:13 AM
It seems that Arabs have been racking up their number of Americans killed over the last few decades. Let's see... Israeli Olympians, Khobar Towers, barracks in Beirut, Pan Am flight over Lockerbie, Scotland, embassies in Kenya and Tansania, USS Cole, WTC I, WTC II, Pentagon, every god damn suicide bombing in Israel... all planned, sponsored, and perpetuated by Middle Eastern men.


Israeli Olympians are not Americans, and neither are most of the victims of palestinian suicide bombings in Israel. How can you add them to the number of americans killed?
. &nbsp;I'd say Arab-American fit a very good profile of people that look like guys that like to kill Americans.

Key words: LOOK LIKE. not think like, and not act like. Is looking a certain way a crime in this country? Also, all Arab-Americans are Americans. Therefore most likely they will not try to kill Americans.

[Commando_turned_MD]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Feb 15 2003, 11:44 PM
I have a question: are you here only to piss people off with blatantly offensive statements?
Nope....

I dont see how my statement is blatantly offensive. Like I mention in my previous statement, I do not play favors...Given the current situation with the Arabic and muslim folks, racial profiling is an Excellent technique in screening for terrorists.....It provides a peace of mind for the innocent folks in this country.......
There is nothing wrong with added scrutiny toward a certain race.......Because that race has a propensity for the violence agaisnt the US.......That is unexceptable.........If when I was over in Afganistan training the rebels and Northern Alliances, some of the soldiers my team and I were training wanted our heads on a stick......If I could, I would have dispatched them.....but that wouldn't be conducive........

If Vietnamese folks started to carry out terrorist acts against this country, I would not care, not even for an iota of second, if Vietnamese folks were subjected to racial profiling.....If you have nothing to hide and not doing anything illegal, then you should have nothing to worry about...

[rakovlam]

Israeli Olympians are not Americans, and neither are most of the victims of palestinian suicide bombings in Israel. How can you add them to the number of americans killed?

Fine, that was a mistake. That slipped in there somehow.

Key words: LOOK LIKE. not think like, and not act like. Is looking a certain way a crime in this country? Also, all Arab-Americans are Americans. Therefore most likely they will not try to kill Americans.

We're talking about racial profiling, right? I think racial profiling has more to do with looks then actions and thoughts. Ah, you say that Arab-Americans would not kill other Americans. A couple of the 911 hijackers had American citizenships. And when was profiling a type of arrest? It's just pulling someone over for extra scrutiny. No charges are made therefore there is no crime involved in profiling someone. Minority groups often complain about being treated unfairly but when members of their group commits a terrorist act or contribute to high rates of crime, they immediately seperate themselves from them. Perhaps minorities should be responsible for policing their own so the government doesn't have to. After all, they do want to be recognized as minorities.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 16 2003, 08:52 PM
I dont see how my statement is blatantly offensive.
My bad, I forgot, you're white!

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by rakovlam@Feb 16 2003, 09:23 PM
Perhaps minorities should be responsible for policing their own so the government doesn't have to.
Those damn minorities. White people are always having to save them.

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Feb 17 2003, 05:45 AM
My bad, I forgot, you're white!
in all fairness, I think Armycommando is Vietnamese-American?

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by rakovlam@Feb 17 2003, 05:23 AM
Perhaps minorities should be responsible for policing their own so the government doesn't have to. &nbsp;After all, they do want to be recognized as minorities.
Umm....as long as "minorities" pay the same taxes as everyone else, I think we're entitled to the same services. like the police.

ever heard the song "911 is a joke in your town" by Public Enemy. I think that's a widespread sentiment, that the cops take their sweet time to help you out when you need them, but they have no qualms w/ busting tickets to get a bonus or busting heads, for that matter. I don't know if that's completely justified, but then again I never had to call the cops. I hope I won't ever have to if that sentiment approximates the truth.

[DragonKnight]

Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 16 2003, 08:52 PM
If Vietnamese folks started to carry out terrorist acts against this country, I would not care, not even for an iota of second, if Vietnamese folks were subjected to racial profiling.....If you have nothing to hide and not doing anything illegal, then you should have nothing to worry about...
So given if you REALLY are Vietnamese, you would't mind if you and your family get stripped of all your property and money?

[kitty]

I'm not sure what Armycommando's ethnicity has much to do with the discussion... his opinions are what's being discussed, right?

[deez nuts]

I actually agree with army commando's take on it. Mebbe not as bluntly or to the extreme, but the overall gist of it.

And if it happens to me, I got nuthing to hide. If it bothers me that much, I'll move out of the country.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 17 2003, 04:52 AM
If Vietnamese folks started to carry out terrorist acts against this country, I would not care, not even for an iota of second, if Vietnamese folks were subjected to racial profiling.....If you have nothing to hide and not doing anything illegal, then you should have nothing to worry about...
Yes, but imagine the inconvenience.

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 16 2003, 10:52 PM
If you have nothing to hide and not doing anything illegal, then you should have nothing to worry about...
if u truly believe this u are blind to reality. worse than that, u perpetuate the notion that everybody is guilty first and can be cleared later rather than the other way around.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Feb 16 2003, 09:58 PM
in all fairness, I think Armycommando is Vietnamese-American?
See what happens when you're hibernating for so long?:)

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by kittygirl@Feb 17 2003, 08:25 AM
I'm not sure what Armycommando's ethnicity has much to do with the discussion... his opinions are what's being discussed, right?
You're right, please strike my comments from the record.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 16 2003, 08:52 PM
Nope....

I dont see how my statement is blatantly offensive. Like I mention in my previous statement, I do not play favors...
Good excuse. I use it all the time to justify my shit talk. I don't play favors, I'm not here to be anyone's friend, etc. etc. etc.

[DragonKnight]

Originally posted by kittygirl@Feb 17 2003, 08:25 AM
I'm not sure what Armycommando's ethnicity has much to do with the discussion... his opinions are what's being discussed, right?
Hrm, that's true.

-Rich, "goes on watching LoTR for the nth time"

[kasia]

Originally posted by armycommando_turned_doctor@Feb 16 2003, 08:52 PM
Nope....

I dont see how my statement is blatantly offensive. Like I mention in my previous statement, I do not play favors...Given the current situation with the Arabic and muslim folks, racial profiling is an Excellent technique in screening for terrorists.....It provides a peace of mind for the innocent folks in this country.......
There is nothing wrong with added scrutiny toward a certain race.......Because that race has a propensity for the violence agaisnt the US.......That is unexceptable.........If when I was over in Afganistan training the rebels and Northern Alliances, some of the soldiers my team and I were training wanted our heads on a stick......If I could, I would have dispatched them.....but that wouldn't be conducive........

If Vietnamese folks started to carry out terrorist acts against this country, I would not care, not even for an iota of second, if Vietnamese folks were subjected to racial profiling.....If you have nothing to hide and not doing anything illegal, then you should have nothing to worry about...
well, even if you don't play favorites, the government and mainstream society certainly do. why weren't whites made victims of racial profiling after timothy mcveigh?

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by kasia@Feb 17 2003, 05:00 PM
well, even if you don't play favorites, the government and mainstream society certainly do. &nbsp;why weren't whites made victims of racial profiling after timothy mcveigh?
exactly. it was actually middle eastern ppl that were implicated in the first day or two.

[kitty]

Originally posted by VV o n g B a@Feb 17 2003, 11:06 PM
exactly. it was actually middle eastern ppl that were implicated in the first day or two.
... with no other proof other than buildings blowing up, which says something about the inherent racism of the media... they had us all looking for middle easterners for the first several days, calling the whole thing an act of terrorism, until they found mcVeigh, when suddenly, it just became an act of ONE crazy dude.

[rakovlam]

... with no other proof other than buildings blowing up, which says something about the inherent racism of the media... they had us all looking for middle easterners for the first several days, calling the whole thing an act of terrorism, until they found mcVeigh, when suddenly, it just became an act of ONE crazy dude.

That's TWO crazy dudes, Terry Nichols who drove the Ryder Truck bomb. And we did try profiling white people once. When the sniper was hanging around the east coast, only white people were profiled and the entire media had disgruntled white gun owner on their viewfinder. Then all the sudden it turns out to be a black Muslim man and an illegal Jamaican kid. And this went on for weeks and Malvo and Muhammed were stopped and released on many occasions. This is a lot worse than a few days of speculation. The next time some plane is hijacked and crashes into a building I won't be looking for Neo-Nazis or Black Panthers.

[FACKU]

Originally posted by Hito@Feb 14 2003, 10:15 AM
Arabs in america are facing a sort of interment.
Where they are being forced to regester with the INS and then being arrested and held for long periods of time and not being allowed acces to legal representaiton.
other a :pissed: sians are in trouble too... indonesians also have to register...

[kangal]

what do you mean in registering?

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by FACKU@Feb 18 2003, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by Hito@Feb 14 2003, 10:15 AM
Arabs in america are facing a sort of interment.
Where they are being forced to regester with the INS and then being arrested and held for long periods of time and not being allowed acces to legal representaiton.
other a :pissed: sians are in trouble too... indonesians also have to register...
What the hell is so bad about registering? Shit.

I had to register when I came to Japan. I have an Alien Registration card that says I registered. America is like the only place that does not require everyone to register. Would it make you feel better if they made all noncitizen residents register?

Registration is OK! It's not like they are saying OKAY GUYS! LINE UP WITH YOUR 5 FAVORITE POSESSIONS AND PREPARE TO BE RELOCATED.

It's saying.. you come from a country that many terrorists which have attempted or suceeded in actualizing terror. We understand that not everyone from your country is bad and evil, but a few of your countrymen have ruined it for you. We are taking this precaution to defend our citizens, though we understand that it will inconvenience you.

It's not racist at all. They judge by nationality, not by race. True, most of the rest of the world is not multicultural, therefore race is involved, but america can't help it if some people in countries with homogenious populations want to take it down.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Feb 18 2003, 01:48 AM
What the hell is so bad about registering? Shit.

I had to register when I came to Japan. I have an Alien Registration card that says I registered. America is like the only place that does not require everyone to register. Would it make you feel better if they made all noncitizen residents register?

Registration is OK! It's not like they are saying OKAY GUYS! LINE UP WITH YOUR 5 FAVORITE POSESSIONS AND PREPARE TO BE RELOCATED.

It's saying.. you come from a country that many terrorists which have attempted or suceeded in actualizing terror. We understand that not everyone from your country is bad and evil, but a few of your countrymen have ruined it for you. We are taking this precaution to defend our citizens, though we understand that it will inconvenience you.

It's not racist at all. They judge by nationality, not by race. True, most of the rest of the world is not multicultural, therefore race is involved, but america can't help it if some people in countries with homogenious populations want to take it down.
So why haven't we legalized bud yet?! I can buy it in Amsterdam, damnit :cry:

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Feb 18 2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Feb 18 2003, 01:48 AM
What the hell is so bad about registering? &nbsp;Shit.

I had to register when I came to Japan. &nbsp;I have an Alien Registration card that says I registered. &nbsp;America is like the only place that does not require everyone to register. &nbsp;Would it make you feel better if they made all noncitizen residents register?

Registration is OK! &nbsp;It's not like they are saying OKAY GUYS! &nbsp;LINE UP WITH YOUR 5 FAVORITE POSESSIONS AND PREPARE TO BE RELOCATED.

It's saying.. you come from a country that many terrorists which have attempted or suceeded in actualizing terror. &nbsp;We understand that not everyone from your country is bad and evil, but a few of your countrymen have ruined it for you. &nbsp;We are taking this precaution to defend our citizens, though we understand that it will inconvenience you. &nbsp;

It's not racist at all. &nbsp;They judge by nationality, not by race. &nbsp;True, most of the rest of the world is not multicultural, therefore race is involved, but america can't help it if some people in countries with homogenious populations want to take it down.
So why haven't we legalized bud yet?! I can buy it in Amsterdam, damnit :cry:
Blame the liquor industry. They lobby against the legalization of weed, well cuz it will seriously hurt their profits.

I know you are attempting to say that what other countries do has no bearing on U.S. law... but as someone who has registered with the government as being a foreigner, I don't feel that any of my rights have been infringed upon. True, if I commit a crime, it will be much easier for them to deport me, or jail me, or do whatever they want to do to me, but I am not a criminal so I'm not too worried.

[kitty]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Feb 18 2003, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by FACKU@Feb 18 2003, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by Hito@Feb 14 2003, 10:15 AM
Arabs in america are facing a sort of interment.
Where they are being forced to regester with the INS and then being arrested and held for long periods of time and not being allowed acces to legal representaiton.
other a :pissed: sians are in trouble too... indonesians also have to register...
What the hell is so bad about registering? Shit.

I had to register when I came to Japan. I have an Alien Registration card that says I registered. America is like the only place that does not require everyone to register. Would it make you feel better if they made all noncitizen residents register?

Registration is OK! It's not like they are saying OKAY GUYS! LINE UP WITH YOUR 5 FAVORITE POSESSIONS AND PREPARE TO BE RELOCATED.

It's saying.. you come from a country that many terrorists which have attempted or suceeded in actualizing terror. We understand that not everyone from your country is bad and evil, but a few of your countrymen have ruined it for you. We are taking this precaution to defend our citizens, though we understand that it will inconvenience you.

It's not racist at all. They judge by nationality, not by race. True, most of the rest of the world is not multicultural, therefore race is involved, but america can't help it if some people in countries with homogenious populations want to take it down.
They also make sex offenders register in a similar sort of registry. Hell, they make kids who were 18 and had sex with a 17 yr old (who they didn't know was a minor at the time) register in the same registry as pedophiles and rapists. A registry is implied guilt at something, implied suspicion of your motives and your trustworthiness.

[Hito]

What was happening is that Arab americans were going down to the INS to regester, trying to be good law abiding citizens and they were getting arrested and held in inhumane conditions and not being allowed to contact their family or legal representaiton.

[anne]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Feb 18 2003, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by FACKU@Feb 18 2003, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by Hito@Feb 14 2003, 10:15 AM
Arabs in america are facing a sort of interment.
Where they are being forced to regester with the INS and then being arrested and held for long periods of time and not being allowed acces to legal representaiton.
other a :pissed: sians are in trouble too... indonesians also have to register...
What the hell is so bad about registering? Shit.

I had to register when I came to Japan. I have an Alien Registration card that says I registered. America is like the only place that does not require everyone to register. Would it make you feel better if they made all noncitizen residents register?

Registration is OK! It's not like they are saying OKAY GUYS! LINE UP WITH YOUR 5 FAVORITE POSESSIONS AND PREPARE TO BE RELOCATED.

It's saying.. you come from a country that many terrorists which have attempted or suceeded in actualizing terror. We understand that not everyone from your country is bad and evil, but a few of your countrymen have ruined it for you. We are taking this precaution to defend our citizens, though we understand that it will inconvenience you.

It's not racist at all. They judge by nationality, not by race. True, most of the rest of the world is not multicultural, therefore race is involved, but america can't help it if some people in countries with homogenious populations want to take it down.
Nothing wrong with registering so long as they're keeping registries on EVERYONE from all courtries. In this case, INS is singling out Arab, Middle Eastern and predominantly Muslim countries. Singling out Nationalities is racist and prejudiced. The Jews were first identified, then singled out...... then told to gather their possessions, then relocated, then murdered. :huh:

[ism]

Originally posted by rakovlam@Feb 17 2003, 09:49 PM
When the sniper was hanging around the east coast, only white people were profiled and the entire media had disgruntled white gun owner on their viewfinder. Then all the sudden it turns out to be a black Muslim man and an illegal Jamaican kid.
Nope, it was also theorized that the sniper could be a Muslim (http://www.jewishworldreview.com/michelle/malkin101102.asp) with links to al-Queda. Of course, the rest of the profile fit -- 20-30's, ex-military, and being Muslim didn't really factor into the random killings, which had no discernible motive. If any lessons were learned from the DC Sniper case, it was that profiling doesn't work all that well.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by anne@Feb 20 2003, 05:40 AM


Nothing wrong with registering so long as they're keeping registries on EVERYONE from all courtries.

Can you imagine the size of the stack of parerwork? You'd need to hire at least 1000 people to sort it. The when you actually need to use it, the data entry whores wouldn't even be done yet. Again, I don't know about the effectiveness of such practices, but the principle itself is not racist.

In this case, INS is singling out Arab, Middle Eastern and predominantly Muslim countries.

Oh! You mean like North Korea and Cuba?


Singling out Nationalities is racist and prejudiced. &nbsp;

No it isn't. Singling out Races or ethnicities with no regard for nationality is. (i.e. Japanese-American Internment)


The Jews were first identified, then singled out...... then told to gather their possessions, then relocated, then murdered. &nbsp;:huh:

Jews in Germany were not a nationality. They were German citizens. I believe that Germany was wrong during WW2 because they were restricting the freedom of their own citizens. However I don't know what their constitution was like. Therefore I cannot say if it was wrong by German standards. However by USA standards, even forcing them to identify themselves was wrong, because they were citizens of Germany.

What part of THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT AMERICAN CITIZENS do you not understand? If they started to require that US citizens of Arabic or Middle Eastern descent should register, then it would be absolutly unconstitutional.

[FACKU]

BEAT THE REDS:

Case example that make you look like an amateur: Jews in poland... they weren't german citizen either...

Another one for you: I used to have a Korean professor who grew up in Japan... He hated the japanese for how he was treated as second class when he grew up, he could never get full Japanese citizenship... same case here now

Third one... this gets better: Japanese is mostly nationality-based so here goes your argument... I think I just heard the toilet flushing or rather your brain down the drain... hey it rhymes

Last one... it only starts with something small then it gets bigger, and suddenly we are all betrayed. I particularly love this episode of Startrek TNG when the cadet was being questioned because he was of another race or something... Then Captain Picard talked about General Satti(sp) who happens to be the questioner's father. I think he said something like once the link is broken, the whole chain is broken or something like that... Did anybody see that episode? The bottom line is that nobody ever thought 9-11 would happened in such a terrible fashion, nobody thought NAZI would have killed so many Jews when they start registering them... By allowing a small thing to happen, how can we be assured that they are not going to start registering the citizens. It is now an open season for anything possible.

By the way, why do you want to beat the reds? ;)

[FACKU]

Just want to add something here... I understand that people are nervous over the possibility of more terrorist attacks... I am too. So is my lovely wife and our lovely cats... Our oldest one doesn't breath very well as is... But if we allow the government to sacrifice the freedom and civil liberties of any human being, regardless of citizenship, then we already lose that freedom. When the mayflowers arrived, the folks on board were trying to escape religious persecution. It's ashame that their followers trampled on the freedom of the native. Indeed... but don't forget that this country was still built under the assumption that feedom will be preserved. FOR THE LAND OF THE FREE AND THE HOME OF THE BRAVES. For once, let's be brave and protect freedom for all humanity.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by FACKU@Feb 20 2003, 02:03 AM
Another one for you: I used to have a Korean professor who grew up in Japan... He hated the japanese for how he was treated as second class when he grew up, he could never get full Japanese citizenship... same case here now
"same case here now?" what are you even trying to say? in fact many Koreans born in Japan are not Japanese citizens, despite the fact that in recent years there are expedited procedures for them to become citizens, many choose to retain Korean citizenship, even North Korean citizenship, so what's your point?

nobody thought NAZI would have killed so many Jews when they start registering them... By allowing a small thing to happen, how can we be assured that they are not going to start registering the citizens. It is now an open season for anything possible

That's ridiculously alarmist. notice that even at the low point of race-based internment in this country, the government wasn't planning on mass killings of Japanese people. And this was in the 1940s, which presumably you'd agree is a more racist time than today.

germans didn't just suddenly decide to start killing Jews. there was a concentrated demonization of Jews in German universities over the preceding decades, oh yeah and anti-Jewish comments from that book "My Struggle" which was published by this guy who apparently had some influence in the German government at the time. there is no even remotely equivalent demonization of Muslims in the US or anti-muslim documents written by US officials claiming Muslims to be cancer on the earth or equivalent ranting.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by FACKU@Feb 19 2003, 11:03 PM
BEAT THE REDS:

Case example that make you look like an amateur: Jews in poland... they weren't german citizen either...

Another one for you: I used to have a Korean professor who grew up in Japan... He hated the japanese for how he was treated as second class when he grew up, he could never get full Japanese citizenship... same case here now

Third one... this gets better: Japanese is mostly nationality-based so here goes your argument... I think I just heard the toilet flushing or rather your brain down the drain... hey it rhymes

Last one... it only starts with something small then it gets bigger, and suddenly we are all betrayed. I particularly love this episode of Startrek TNG when the cadet was being questioned because he was of another race or something... Then Captain Picard talked about General Satti(sp) who happens to be the questioner's father. I think he said something like once the link is broken, the whole chain is broken or something like that... Did anybody see that episode? The bottom line is that nobody ever thought 9-11 would happened in such a terrible fashion, nobody thought NAZI would have killed so many Jews when they start registering them... By allowing a small thing to happen, how can we be assured that they are not going to start registering the citizens. It is now an open season for anything possible.

By the way, why do you want to beat the reds? ;)
What are you talking about? My posts are more comprehensible than this.

[FACKU]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Feb 19 2003, 10:39 PM



Can you imagine the size of the stack of parerwork? &nbsp;You'd need to hire at least 1000 people to sort it. &nbsp;The when you actually need to use it, the data entry whores wouldn't even be done yet. &nbsp;Again, I don't know about the effectiveness of such practices, but the principle itself is not racist. &nbsp;

Paperwork over freedom and civil liberties.....hmmm....wow that's a hard one to choose :blink:

No it isn't. &nbsp;Singling out Races or ethnicities with no regard for nationality is. &nbsp;(i.e. Japanese-American Internment)

OK you are missing the point. try thinking more conceptually.... I believe in one race..the human race.... and many nationalities, ethnicities and cultures.

Jews in Germany were not a nationality. &nbsp;They were German citizens. &nbsp;I believe that Germany was wrong during WW2 because they were restricting the freedom of their own citizens. &nbsp;However I don't know what their constitution was like. &nbsp;Therefore I cannot say if it was wrong by German standards. &nbsp;However by USA standards, even forcing them to identify themselves was wrong, because they were citizens of Germany.

Err.... :huh: did you take any history classes? The Jewish people persecuted in WW2 were of various nationalities: Poland, Italy, Austria, just to name a few. The Nazis persecuted them more as an ethnic culture rather than nationality. And by any HUMAN RIGHTS standards and most religious standards, it was wrong. :!

What part of THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT AMERICAN CITIZENS do you not understand? &nbsp;If they started to require that US citizens of Arabic or Middle Eastern descent should register, then it would be absolutly unconstitutional.

In my opinion, you don't think outside the box and you think with a narrow ethnocentric point of view. Don't you realize the ramifications of singling out persons of Arabic/Middle Eastern backgrounds? Do you realize that this has also spread to other Asians? There are large numbers of Chinese, East Indians and non-muslims in countries like Indonesia and Malaysia? They have to register too. Stigma, stigma, stigma. The racial profiling will only get worse. It has even affected Mexican-Americans in this country because of the dark hair and darker skin tones. One of my colleagues has been profiled several times whenever he travles. I am talking about a very mild mannered public interest attorney who spent part of his career working for Amnesty International.

[anne]

:! OOPS! The above post from FACKU is actually from me. I was using his laptop and forgot to log myself in. :P

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by FACKU@Feb 19 2003, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Feb 19 2003, 10:39 PM





Paperwork over freedom and civil liberties.....hmmm....wow that's a hard one to choose :blink:



OK you are missing the point. try thinking more conceptually.... I believe in one race..the human race.... and many nationalities, ethnicities and cultures.



Err.... :huh: did you take any history classes? The Jewish people persecuted in WW2 were of various nationalities: Poland, Italy, Austria, just to name a few. The Nazis persecuted them more as an ethnic culture rather than nationality. And by any HUMAN RIGHTS standards and most religious standards, it was wrong. :!



In my opinion, you don't think outside the box and you think with a narrow ethnocentric point of view. Don't you realize the ramifications of singling out persons of Arabic/Middle Eastern backgrounds? Do you realize that this has also spread to other Asians? There are large numbers of Chinese, East Indians and non-muslims in countries like Indonesia and Malaysia? They have to register too. Stigma, stigma, stigma. The racial profiling will only get worse. It has even affected Mexican-Americans in this country because of the dark hair and darker skin tones. One of my colleagues has been profiled several times whenever he travles. I am talking about a very mild mannered public interest attorney who spent part of his career working for Amnesty International.

FACKU or whoever:

Maybe you should stop being so condescending and quick to assume that people are 'amateurs' and 'ethnocentrics'. That way people won't respond in kind and hostility won't increase. Stop assuming that nobody here as anything worthwhile to offer but yourself.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by FACKU@Feb 20 2003, 02:42 AM
In my opinion, you don't think outside the box and you think with a narrow ethnocentric point of view. &nbsp;Don't you realize the ramifications of singling out persons of Arabic/Middle Eastern backgrounds? Do you realize that this has also spread to other Asians? There are large numbers of Chinese, East Indians and non-muslims in countries like Indonesia and Malaysia? They have to register too. &nbsp;Stigma, stigma, stigma.
uh what's your point exactly? they're non-citizens of various races, and they're required to register. how is it "stigma stigma stigma." Anyone carrying a Malaysian passport has to register, regardless of his race or religion.

And furthermore as has been repeated ad infinitum in this debate, the US gov't are not singling out people of xxx "background," they're singling out foreign citizens who by virtue of either not having lived in the country long enough, or their own choice have chosen not to take US citizenship oath and swear an oath that they renounce their loyalty to any foreign prince, potentate, etc. etc. Not everyone of Malaysian background is required to register, just those still holding a Malaysian passport. My aunt who used to hold Malaysian passport but now holds Canadian one isn't required to register. Myself, despite being of some Malay ancestry, am not required to register.

[kasia]

well, let's get back on the topic, though. in the article in the first post, the arab man was arrested in the middle of the night and then questioned by the FBI for no apparent reason. how is that form of racial profiling justified?

and please refrain from personal attacks. :)

[anne]

Maybe you should stop being so condescending and quick to assume that people are 'amateurs' and 'ethnocentrics'. That way people won't respond in kind and hostility won't increase. Stop assuming that nobody here as anything worthwhile to offer but yourself.

Hey I'm not trying to offend anyone, just making my own statements, just as you all are. If I came across as condenscending, I apologize. I must say though, I feel passionate about my beliefs just as many of you do and obviously they differ-- and so be it.

As I stated before, I don't think that INS should be requiring only folks from those countries to registering. if they're gonna require registering, they should make such a requirement for everyone. The danger of singling out those people is that it will create more stigma for Arab-, MiddleEastern- and Asian-Americans and lead to more of the profiling that we are seeing today. I was just stressing that the ramifications of these new regulations need to be examined a lot more closely and looked at from another point of view other than just the registering to monitor potential terroists.

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Feb 19 2003, 11:47 PM


FACKU or whoever:

Maybe you should stop being so condescending and quick to assume that people are 'amateurs' and 'ethnocentrics'. That way people won't respond in kind and hostility won't increase. Stop assuming that nobody here as anything worthwhile to offer but yourself.
It's a sensitive topic, but near personal attacks are not called for. That just cause more problems that people obviously don't need right now and create dysfunction on a civilized network.

[BeTheReds]

Here comes a long and boring post to refute the notion that I am an ameteur.

First I'd like to say that I don't think ethnic profiling of non-americans is wrong, however I think it is innefective that's why it should not be done.

Case example that make you look like an amateur: Jews in poland... they weren't german citizen either...

Okay, fine, but that's because poland was conquered. None of the arabs in the USA who need to register have been conquered or forced to live there. The USA did not conquer a land to make these people automatically living within its territory. You also have to agree that nazis are really shitty people, and even comparing the USA to them is insulting not only to the USA, but to yourself as well.

Another one for you: I used to have a Korean professor who grew up in Japan... He hated the japanese for how he was treated as second class when he grew up, he could never get full Japanese citizenship... same case here now

I personally know overseas Koreans who have changed their citizenship to Japanese, and over 10000 do it every year. What the hell does this have to do with ethnic profiling? How is another nation's citizenship laws supposed to make me see that the USA is wrong for making foreigners from high risk countries register? Furthermore, I don't see how Japan's citizenship laws are anything like the case we have in the USA. Anyone can be a U.S. citizen if they are born on U.S. soil. Japan has a law of the blood. If when you were born, one of your parents was a citizen of Japan, you are Japanese. Getting Japanese citizenship takes a long time and is really difficult. Compared to Japan's strict citizenship laws, getting US citizenship is a breeze. But I still don't see what citizenship laws have anything to do with this. If these people become U.S. citizens then they don't have to register. I know it sucks, since there is that living in the USA for 5 years requirement, and people in their 4th year have to register anyway, but you gotta draw the line somewhere. I would have chosen foriegners who have lived in the USA for more than 5 years without starting the naturalization process and foreigners who have been living in the USA for 2 years or less.
Third one... this gets better: Japanese is mostly nationality-based so here goes your argument... I think I just heard the toilet flushing or rather your brain down the drain... hey it rhymes

Huh? What are you saying? If you are talking about the fact that Japan is racially 99.9% Japanese, then yes, it is true. It is also true that most of the countries on the list for registration are not very ethnically diverse, therefore people of that nationality are going to tend to be the same race. But the USA is using nationality, not race or ethnicity as the basis for their registration edict, they are not racist. This is becase nationality and race are two different things. One is the country where you hold citizenship and the other is your skin color and physical appearance. If they were using race as the marker, then Arab americans would be forced to register, and I would be pissed, just as i am pissed by cobles comment.

By allowing a small thing to happen, how can we be assured that they are not going to start registering the citizens. It is now an open season for anything possible.

Because the 1960's happened. The constitution protects all citizens, and thanks to the 1960's and black history month and all the PC stuff everyone has had jammed down their throats, most people think that imprisoning citizens for no reason other than their race is wrong.

By the way, why do you want to beat the reds? &nbsp;

Are you joking? It's BE THE REDS! Look at my avatar. I'm not some anti-communist activist. I am a Korean Soccer team fan.

Paperwork over freedom and civil liberties.....hmmm....wow that's a hard one to choose &nbsp;

Listen to yourself.

registration of foreigners from high risk countries- low paperwork
registration of all foreigners - lots of paperwork.

Either way, the foreigners from high risk countries are gonna have to register. Therefore, their civil liberties are going to be infringed either way. Also the paperwork will impede what the registration is trying to do. Lets say that arabic terrorists make up .5 percent of all arabic foreigners in the USA. Then say that arabs are 10% of all foreigners in the USA. That means that .05% of all foreigners are arabic terrorists. Would you rather search for 1/200 or 1/2000? (Okay I admit these numbers are high, but it's for arguments sake. Also I personally don't think that registering is going to find terrorists, but the government is acting under the presumption that it does, therefore targeting high risk countries makes sense.)

No it isn't. &nbsp;Singling out Races or ethnicities with no regard for nationality is. &nbsp;(i.e. Japanese-American Internment) OK you are missing the point. try thinking more conceptually.... I believe in one race..the human race.... and many nationalities, ethnicities and cultures.

Okay, I believe that all humans are the same species too, and I believe that nationality and race/ethnicity (or whatever you want to call phenotypic and/or cultural differences) are different things. Requiring a people of a different nationality (the country of their citizenship) to do something that citizens don't have to do is not racist.

Err.... &nbsp;did you take any history classes? The Jewish people persecuted in WW2 were of various nationalities: Poland, Italy, Austria, just to name a few. The Nazis persecuted them more as an ethnic culture rather than nationality. And by any HUMAN RIGHTS standards and most religious standards, it was wrong. &nbsp;

Yes, the nazis were wrong. see above. Non-german jews who were persecuted by germany were forced into germany. No non-american arab in the USA is forced to be there by virtue of american conquest of whatever country they have citizenship with.

In my opinion, you don't think outside the box and you think with a narrow ethnocentric point of view. Don't you realize the ramifications of singling out persons of Arabic/Middle Eastern backgrounds?

I don't think I do. I don't advocate ethnic profiling of arabs who are american citizens. I beleive the constitution should protect all U.S. citizens. I also believe the government isn't singling out people of Arabic backgrounds. It is using nationality as it's basis, not ethnicity. These are two different things. In the cases of high risk middle eastern countries, their populatons tend to be homogenous, therefore it might appear as if they are racially profiling muslims, but in actuality they are profiling citizens of high risk countries. And not all of these countries are in the middle east North Koreans and Cubans have to register too.

There are large numbers of Chinese, East Indians and non-muslims in countries like Indonesia and Malaysia? They have to register too.

You've only pointed out that they aren't singling out middle easterners or singling out muslims, only citizens of high risk countries. Thanks for helping me out.

And I am not an Ameteur! :pissed:

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by kasia@Feb 20 2003, 08:11 AM
well, let's get back on the topic, though. in the article in the first post, the arab man was arrested in the middle of the night and then questioned by the FBI for no apparent reason. how is that form of racial profiling justified?

and please refrain from personal attacks. :)
No, it was wrong.

This is because he did nothing wrong. No one should be imprisoned without reason, citizen or not. Questioning him for his anti-war activities is infringing upon his freedom of speech.

[kangal]

s this a far cry from why went on during wwII? is this a good profile during the WWII setting? man walking around the streets at night, violating the curfew set by the government, who was Japanese. hirabayashi's case came before korematsu's. the arrest of this muslim man is only a precursor to the internment of arab-americans.


I'm not sure if anyone noticed, but the man was probably not an Arab-American. His born name was Bret Darren Lee. He wasn't targeted because of RACIAL profiling...he as targeted due to simple profiling. And profiling itself is an essential part to crime fighting. Without it, it would be impossible to say what suspects look like. And he wasn't imprisoned without reason, he had broken bail. Also, 5 a.m. isn't necessarily "middle of the night"

[splendor]

uh what's your point exactly? they're non-citizens of various races, and they're required to register. how is it "stigma stigma stigma." Anyone carrying a Malaysian passport has to register, regardless of his race or religion.

And furthermore as has been repeated ad infinitum in this debate, the US gov't are not singling out people of xxx "background," they're singling out foreign citizens who by virtue of either not having lived in the country long enough, or their own choice have chosen not to take US citizenship oath and swear an oath that they renounce their loyalty to any foreign prince, potentate, etc. etc. Not everyone of Malaysian background is required to register, just those still holding a Malaysian passport. My aunt who used to hold Malaysian passport but now holds Canadian one isn't required to register. Myself, despite being of some Malay ancestry, am not required to register.

[splendor]

I agree. US is still the best country in the world. Let's be proactive but not too judgemental. Write to your congressman if you have any concerns/questions.

[FACKU]

And I am not an Ameteur! &nbsp;


man... I never called you an Ameteur, I called you an Amateur... :o

Share a laugh dude, I think you got all too deep with this stuff...

A clarification on this issue. Green card holders and Political Asylees do not need to register. INS and FBI already got their finger-prints on file so they dont need to bother. Same with naturalized citizens... ashcroft is no dummy... he got this down pretty good...

[FACKU]

About Be The Reds stuff... man, i did make a lot of money selling them t-shirts... so thank you soccer fan!! You made my day... :lol: