Can someone give me an Asian history lesson?

[mr. x]

Im an idiot, so keep that in mind

I was wondering if someone could give me a brief overview of asian history, meaning how Chinese and Koreans and Japanese and so on and so forth are related...

[kasia]

here's a related, but not identical topic: Ethnic and Cultural Links (http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=5333).

moving thread to rant room - as this will most likely turn into a debate :)

[kitty]

uhm... wow... where to start?
can you give a few... primer questions?

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I always get irked (or majorly pissed off) whenever I witness certain online debates regarding ethnic origin. A few of you may know what I'm talking about. People seem to be so insecure with who they are that they will go out of their way to come across as pseudo-archaeologists in order to convince or prove to others that their ethnic people (correct term??) did this and that back in those days (preferably a glorious and successful history of domination and/or success) and therefore this is how they came to be. Fuck off. You guys aren't PhD's. And even if you know a few pieces of history here and there, often times you just fill in the gaps with your own twisted logic and/or ego. Sorry for this little rant...it is not meant to be directed toward those who actually know what they are talking about when discussing ethnic origin. Also, obviously it is healthy and beneficial to know the history of your family tree and the history of the people of your ethnicity, although personally I do not care if history says that my ancestors decended from the sky, or evolved from three-legged frogs.

[kitty]

hmm... was that the question? I thought mr. x was asking about a general history of asia (i.e. wars, etc...) International relations...

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by kasia@Jan 26 2003, 08:44 PM
here's a related, but not identical topic: Ethnic and Cultural Links (http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=5333).

moving thread to rant room - as this will most likely turn into a debate :)
see, kasie... this is why we need the *ahem*

[BeTheReds]

Lol, that's certainly a tall order.

I don't think anyone can encompass over 5000 years of history in a single post.

[rakovlam]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jan 27 2003, 12:21 AM
Lol, that's certainly a tall order.

I don't think anyone can encompass over 5000 years of history in a single post.
Watch me. But later on that, it's late and the Raiders just got crushed... hahaha!

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by rakovlam@Jan 27 2003, 04:31 AM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jan 27 2003, 12:21 AM
Lol, that's certainly a tall order.

I don't think anyone can encompass over 5000 years of history in a single post.
Watch me. But later on that, it's late and the Raiders just got crushed... hahaha!
Well if you can do it, more power to you.

That would be like 3 to 4 years of classes in a single post...

[kitty]

Originally posted by rakovlam@Jan 27 2003, 04:31 AM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jan 27 2003, 12:21 AM
Lol, that's certainly a tall order.

I don't think anyone can encompass over 5000 years of history in a single post.
Watch me. But later on that, it's late and the Raiders just got crushed... hahaha!
good luck... it takes us a semester just to cover a couple decades from the point of view of a single culture.

[BeTheReds]

The Short Short Short verstion

It was cold for a very very long time.

Because of this evolution produced humans who had more fat deposits in their eyes, and smaller noses, as well as thick black hair for heat retention.

They spread all over what is now east Asia

One group made a difficult system of writing that would prove to be the bane of foreigners in the distant future. This system became so poular and widely used.

They had a bunch of wars, both with each other and with the West.


America and the Soviets had their bit of influence too.

The End

[mr. x]

Hmm, i should elaborate

Yeah, i meant like how did China become China, Korea become Korea and so forth

And how are each peoples related to each other

[BeTheReds]

Korea became Korea when general Ulchi Mondok defeated China in war thus saving the peninsula from becoming a province of China. However one could argue that this was not the beginning of Korea, rather that Korea started when the Silla Kingdom defeated the 2 other Kingdoms in war and unified the peninsula under one language.

That's the breif version anyway.

Japan owes its roots to the Yamato house which may or may not have came from Korea


China I don't know too much about, but many different dynasties have risen and fallen. Which one you can call the start of China is beyond me.

[iris]

I'll do the first half of Chinese civilization - from the very very beginning:

There are two theories of evolution:

1. Mitochondrial Eve/Out of Africa - we all evolved from one DNA strand in Africa and we spread out over the world and populated it. Eventually we became so separated, each "pocket" of people started their own culture and society. We are connected at the very beginning of the cladogram and genetic structure.

2. Multi-linear Theory - Evolution of humans started everywhere at approximately the same time. We evolved at nearly the same rates, adapting to each specific environment, thus each separate ethnicity is only connected by inter-breeding.

Anthropologists still aren't sure theory is true.

Agriculture came into existence about 10,000 years ago and with that came a sedentary lifestyle and the very beginnings of China and the Asian nations. Previously, humans were nomadic to combat disease, famine, natural disasters, and the shifting ice age. They were also self-sufficient. However, when they figured out the technique of farming, specialization was practiced and it lead to a sedentary culture.

The first prehistoric Chinese society is said to be the Xia dynasty. It was created around the twenty-first to the sixteenth century B.C. At minimum, the Xia period marked an evolutionary stage between the late neolithic cultures and the typical Chinese urban civilization of the Shang dynasty, which endured roughly from 1700 to 1027 B.C. Its civilization was based on agriculture, augmented by hunting and animal husbandry. Two important events of the period were the development of a writing system, as revealed in archaic Chinese inscriptions found on tortoise shells and flat cattle bones (commonly called oracle bones), and the use of bronze metallurgy. Tools and proof of writing are good indicators for the establishment of a society. Combined with evidence of agriculture, it is only then when one can state a group of people inhabiting the same area as a "civilization."

Someone else's turn....

[mr. x]

Why is this in the rant room?

Also, could someone explain how asian languages evolved?

[MellowDrama]

That's what I wanted to know. I don't think this is a rant.

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by tazadar@Jan 27 2003, 12:39 AM
but humans settlements in the Korean pennisula can be dated about 500,000 years ago.
huh?? i don't see how this is possible as anatomically modern humans were only supposed to have evolved about 30,000 to 40,000 years ago.

[SunWuKong]

Even though the Xia dynasty, which for the longest time was thought of to be simply a mythical time period until evidence was found of its existence, is generally accepted by sinologists as the beginning of the Chinese civilisation, it was the Qin dynasty and its ruthless emperor, Shi Huangdi, that is attributed as having unified China for the first time. He was the one that was buried with an army of terracotta soldiers, and he was also the one that started the construction of the Great Wall, which was not to be finished until many centuries later. Shi Huangdi is known for his ruthlessness and it is thought that his ruthlessness was what enabled him to unify China. However, unified Qin China was incredibly short-lived, lasting only from 221 BC to 207 BC, and it is also Shi Huangdi's ruthlessness that is attributed to the downfall of the Qin dynasty.

The movie Hero happens to be a story of the assassination of Shi Huangdi.

[iris]

Homo sapiens evolved around 200,000-120,000 years ago. 500,000 years ago, we were still Homo erectus, but Wongba is correct saying that modern man - Homo sapiens sapiens didn't exist until 40,000 - 30,000 years ago. We didn't have settlements until the advent of agriculture (apprx. 10,000 years ago). The first evidence of fire and advanced tools is about 70,000 years ago. A settlement existing about 500,000 years ago would have been impossible.

[SunWuKong]

Here is a good outline of the dynastic cycles in China, starting with the neolithic age and ending with the last dynasty, Qing.

http://emuseum.mnsu.edu/prehistory/china/timeline.html

[VV o n g B a]

i've heard of an old book called the yellow emperor. do you know who wrote this book and when it was written?

[kitty]

SWK, i'm just curious, could you elaborate on the evidence of HuangDi's existence? I was taught in a class on ancient China that there was no evidence, and that it was a different emperor (dating to a much later period) who was buried with the terracotta soldiers.

[MellowDrama]

Originally posted by kittygirl@Jan 28 2003, 10:31 AM
SWK, i'm just curious, could you elaborate on the evidence of HuangDi's existence? I was taught in a class on ancient China that there was no evidence, and that it was a different emperor (dating to a much later period) who was buried with the terracotta soldiers.
He's talking about Shi Huangdi, the Qin emperor, and not the mythical Yellow Emperor that may or may not have existed before Xia.

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by MellowDrama@Jan 28 2003, 10:33 AM
He's talking about Shi Huangdi, the Qin emperor, and not the mythical Yellow Emperor that may or may not have existed before Xia.
ahh, so this guy was legend. and before xia... so something like 4500 - 5000 years ago? what did he supposedly do?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by VV o n g B a@Jan 28 2003, 11:29 AM
i've heard of an old book called the yellow emperor. do you know who wrote this book and when it was written?
The Yellow Emperor, or Huangdi, is a semi-mythical, semi-historical figure in Chinese history and lore. He was said to have been capable of tremendous feats and legend has it that he gave the Chinese people such great things as writing, medicine, etc etc. His great grandson was said to be the first ruler of the legendary Xia dynasty, the first dynasty of China.

The book you're thinking of could be The Medical Classic of The Yellow Emperor. It was supposed to have been written about two thousand years ago and it covers all the basics of traditional Chinese medicine.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by VV o n g B a@Jan 28 2003, 11:42 AM
ahh, so this guy was legend. and before xia... so something like 4500 - 5000 years ago? what did he supposedly do?
There are so many legendary stories about Huangdi. Here is a short bio on him that I found on the web:

Huangdi is regarded as ancestor of Chinese race. He was mystical chief of one of the strongest tribes in the middle valley of Yellow River. Because his tribe honored the virtue of earth, he was addressed after the yellow color of earth, the symbol of farming. During his days about 4,000 thousand years ago, it was the time of patriarchal clan community. Many tribes came to settle down around the reach of Yellow River and were engaged in farming. Wars arose between different tribes in sought of occupation of more lands and people suffered a lot from turbulent life. Huangdi decided to put an end to this chaotic situation. He worked out a set of moral code and trained his army. After about 56 battlements with other tribes, he conquered wide area along the Yellow River and was made chief of tribe union.
Huangdi was said to be the founder of Chinese civilization. He coined bronze money, practised medicine, invented boats, raised silk-worm and divided his realm into provinces. The story went that at age of 110, a yellow dragon, alighting from the sky, summoned the emperor to heaven on behalf of the king of heaven. When the emperor, riding on the back of the dragon is about to leave, his subjects, who were reluctant to let him go, dragged by his clothes. However, all that left were only part of the emperor's clothes and hat. In commemoration of Huangdi, his descendents buried his remainder at Mt. Qiaoshan, in present Shaanxi province and had his mausoleum built. Tradition passes down from then that every year on fifth day of fourth lunar month, Chinese people of Huangdi's origin will come to visit his mausoleum that has become the symbol of Chinese nation.

People still visit his mausoleum every year. I've read that many overseas Chinese visit this place, and you can find English messages left by them.

[iris]

Originally posted by tazadar@Jan 29 2003, 12:51 AM
NO! NO! NOPE! YOU ARE WRONG.

*lol* Modern humans (homo sapiens sapiens) wasn't until 50,000 years ago began to appear in East Asia. Thank you for the correction, my love.
I'm sorry to be anal about this, but 10,000 years is much to be off by - we were still a different species then.

Upper Paleolithic humans only began to exist about 30,000-40,000 years ago. About 40,000 years ago came the appearance of the Cro-Magnon culture - tool kits started becoming markedly more sophisticated, using a wider variety of raw materials such as bone and antler, new implements for making clothing appeared, sculpting and engraving showed up. Our average brain size increased to about 1350 cc (from 1150 cc of Homo erectus).

Our foreheads' rose sharply and our eyebrow ridges' decreased or disappeared all together. We lost our occipital bun (large knot at the back of our head) and our chins became more prominent (Leakey 1994). Neanderthals were the species that existed about 50,000 years ago in co-existence with Homo sapien sapiens but of the Mesolithic variety - not Upper Paleolithic (which we are). Solid proof of modern humans in East Asia by radiocardon dating at earliest is 27,000 years ago. While the rest of the world ascribes to the Out of Africa theory, for some reason East Asia is proof of the Multi-linear/Multi-regional theory because humans developed at either a much slower rate than the rest of the world or else archeologists haven't been able to find fossils of proof yet.

edit: This is not meant as a challenge. I'm just correcting the dates for the events of human history so quit it with the snide remarks.

[kitty]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 28 2003, 04:45 PM
The Yellow Emperor, or Huangdi, is a semi-mythical, semi-historical figure in Chinese history and lore. He was said to have been capable of tremendous feats and legend has it that he gave the Chinese people such great things as writing, medicine, etc etc. His great grandson was said to be the first ruler of the legendary Xia dynasty, the first dynasty of China.

The book you're thinking of could be The Medical Classic of The Yellow Emperor. It was supposed to have been written about two thousand years ago and it covers all the basics of traditional Chinese medicine.
oh... whoops... my bad... nevermind :blush:

[himura-dono]

Originally posted by iris@Jan 27 2003, 06:10 AM
I'll do the first half of Chinese civilization - from the very very beginning:

There are two theories of evolution:

1. Mitochondrial Eve/Out of Africa - we all evolved from one DNA strand in Africa and we spread out over the world and populated it. Eventually we became so separated, each "pocket" of people started their own culture and society. We are connected at the very beginning of the cladogram and genetic structure.

2. Multi-linear Theory - Evolution of humans started everywhere at approximately the same time. We evolved at nearly the same rates, adapting to each specific environment, thus each separate ethnicity is only connected by inter-breeding.

Anthropologists still aren't sure theory is true.

Agriculture came into existence about 10,000 years ago and with that came a sedentary lifestyle and the very beginnings of China and the Asian nations. Previously, humans were nomadic to combat disease, famine, natural disasters, and the shifting ice age. They were also self-sufficient. However, when they figured out the technique of farming, specialization was practiced and it lead to a sedentary culture.

The first prehistoric Chinese society is said to be the Xia dynasty. It was created around the twenty-first to the sixteenth century B.C. At minimum, the Xia period marked an evolutionary stage between the late neolithic cultures and the typical Chinese urban civilization of the Shang dynasty, which endured roughly from 1700 to 1027 B.C. Its civilization was based on agriculture, augmented by hunting and animal husbandry. Two important events of the period were the development of a writing system, as revealed in archaic Chinese inscriptions found on tortoise shells and flat cattle bones (commonly called oracle bones), and the use of bronze metallurgy. Tools and proof of writing are good indicators for the establishment of a society. Combined with evidence of agriculture, it is only then when one can state a group of people inhabiting the same area as a "civilization."

Someone else's turn....
shiz...there's some articles floating around showing that there was a civilization in china BEFORE the xia. i don't know the specifics as Cindy was trying to tell me about it while i was studying for 3 finals back to back to back the same day. so what she said came out as mindless yammering most of the time.

[ModernLogic]

Im an idiot, so keep that in mind

I was wondering if someone could give me a brief overview of asian history, meaning how Chinese and Koreans and Japanese and so on and so forth are related...

Here is a SUPER-brief cliff-notes version of Chinese History:

Xia Dynasty (2200 - c. 1750 BC) - Uhh... did this dynasty even exist. Nobody knows since it's all mythical.

Shang Dynasty (1750 - c. 1040 BC) - China's earliest Dynasty with archaelogical evidence. Two important things about Shang, it's amazing bronzeworks and it's written language. They were also shaministic and sacrificed humans... sick bastards, I know.

Zhou (c. 1100 - 256 BC) - More "Chinese" than the Shang because they stopped sacrificing humans.

Spring & Autumn Period (722 - 481 BC) - Dynasty named after book (Spring and Autumn Annals). Three important philosophies emerged during this period: Daoism, Legalism, Confucianism.

Warring States Period (403 - 221 BC) - Very Chaotic and full of warfare. (Think modern-day Africa). We're talking about HUGE battles with millions of men and lasting for days.

Qin (221 - 206 BC) - First Emperor QinShiHuang unites the states and gets movies made after him (Emperor and Assasin, Hero). He was a Chinese Hitler but he also did good stuff like build great wall, standardize writing, measurements. etc

Han (206 BC - 220 AD) - One of the Most Dynasties. The Han defined what it means to be Chinese. We still pay tribute to the Han by preferring to ourselves as "Han." Chinese Confucian Bureaucracy and culture flourished. The Han empire was huge and rivalved the Roman Empire in size.

Three Kingdoms (220 - 265) - Three Warring Kingdoms... read "The Romance of the Three Kingdoms" or better yet, play the game "Dynasty Warriors" for more info.

Sui (589 - 618) - Whatever. Not that important.

Tang (618 - 907) - Very important Dynasty... up there with the Han. Again culture, wealth, art all flourished... blah blah blah. The Tang Empire was huge (from Korea to Afghanistan, from Vietnam to Siberian)

Northern Song (960 - 1125) - Another great period in China. Technology flourished. Unfortunately, the Mongol bastards invaded the North and pushed Chinese folk into the South and hence became the Southern Song.

Southern Song (1127 - 1279) - A lot of mingling between Northerners and Southerners. Southern China is now more "Chinese" than before.

Yuan (Mongol rule) - (1279 - 1368) - Not a good time in Chinese history.... we were under foreign rule. A lot of foreigners like mongols and arabs actual became administrators in the Yuan kingdom... even an Italian by the name of Marco Polo had a post.

Ming (1368 - 1644) - The Last real Chinese Dynasty. The Ming were alright... they did manage to explore the seas under the brilliant guidance of Zheng He. However, close-minded Court scumbags ended the voyages.

Qing (Manchu) (1644 - 1911) - Manchurians from NorthEast China invades China... these guys sucked big time. Their own response to the Western threat was pathetic. They didn't modernize the army, or adopted Western technology... all the Manchus did was sit around and built jade boats that sunk in water. Like I always say: "Modern China sucks because of the Manchus and Mao."

Republican China (1911-1949) - Finally, Sun Yat Sen overthrows the dying Qing Dynasty. Because of the divisive and selfish nature of the Chinese people, powers changes hands like a joint being passed around at a Woodstock Concert. Yuan ShiKai takes power, then regional warlords, then Chiang Kai Shek. Then there was the Japanese Invasion and then there was the KMT-CCP Civil War... blah blah blah, lots of killing and suffering...

The People's Republic of China (1949- ) - More killing and suffering follows. Milllions starve thanks to Mao. Professors killed and jailed thanks to Mao. Landlords beaten to death thanks to Mao. Doctors and Scientists persecuted thanks to Mao. China has GDP lower than most African nations thanks to Mao. Mao finally dies in 76 and a competent Deng actually gets something done. Another economic genius by the name of Zhu RongJi comes along and gets more stuff done.

Hopefully, China will see better days coming.

[SunWuKong]

The People's Republic of China (1949- ) - More killing and suffering follows. Milllions starve thanks to Mao. Professors killed and jailed thanks to Mao. Landlords beaten to death thanks to Mao. Doctors and Scientists persecuted thanks to Mao. China has GDP lower than most African nations thanks to Mao. Mao finally dies in 76 and a competent Deng actually gets something done. Another economic genius by the name of Zhu RongJi comes along and gets more stuff done.

i agree with all those negative things, but you have to admit that a lot good things also came out of the establishment of the PRC, as compared to how things were before Liberation. gender equality. nation-wide free education. basic health care. increased standards of living. etc etc.

and also, i know people whose parents actually didn't have a very tough time at "Re-Education" camps. that surprised me, but i guess some people had a tough time, and others did not.

[ModernLogic]

i agree with all those negative things, but you have to admit that a lot good things also came out of the establishment of the PRC, as compared to how things were before Liberation. gender equality. nation-wide free education. basic health care. increased standards of living. etc etc.

and also, i know people whose parents actually didn't have a very tough time at "Re-Education" camps. that surprised me, but i guess some people had a tough time, and others did not.

Well, the Soviets managed to create technology that rivaled the U.S but nobody is arguing that Stalin as a great Russian leader.

The achievements of the PRC that you mentioned, in no way, compensates for the crimes they've committed.

[SunWuKong]

Well, the Soviets managed to create technology that rivaled the U.S but nobody is arguing that Stalin as a great Russian leader.

The achievements of the PRC that you mentioned, in no way, compensates for the crimes they've committed.


i would say that it doesn't compensate for the Great Leap, but it does compensate for the Cultural Revolution, which in my personal opinions, was much less severe than Great Leap.

and no, nobody is going to argue that Mao was a great leader. i think he was a great military leader, but that's about it. and there were a lot of benevolent leaders in the CCP - Zhou Enlai being the prime example - but Mao just had too tight of a grip on the people.

[jenjen]

lol, every thread involving china eventually turns into a chinese communism discussion...

[SunWuKong]

lol, every thread involving china eventually turns into a chinese communism discussion...


it's Rong Ji junior's fault! :D

[ModernLogic]

lol, every thread involving china eventually turns into a chinese communism discussion...

Hey Jen, is that a picture of you as a kid? You look absolutely ADORABLE!

It's a sad truth that China fell into Communism's evil tentacles. Communism has become an integrate facet of modern China's history. You can't discuss modern China without bringing in Communism.

[jenjen]

yep, that's me when i was around 4, trying to pose like a model:p, taken in chengdu, china.

i agree. you can't discuss modern china without bringing in communism. hell, you probably couldn't even discuss traditional china without drawing parallels to modern china. i took a year length asian history course just for the term long chinese history topic- which shows how much i love chinese modern history, and i join in when you two go off on your chinese communism tangents, but i just feeling bad for mr. x over there who just wanted to know about asian history... sorry dude...

[SunWuKong]

Hey Jen, is that a picture of you as a kid? You look absolutely ADORABLE!

It's a sad truth that China fell into Communism's evil tentacles. Communism has become an integrate facet of modern China's history. You can't discuss modern China without bringing in Communism.


well there were good leaders in the CCP ranks, too. Zhou Enlai had wanted to reform the Chinese economy for a long time, and under his leadership, the Great Leap and the Cultural Revolution would have never happened. but basically i blame Mao Ze Dong and Chiang Kai Shek. if only Sun Yat Sen had been a stronger leader.