Koreans and Japanese, ethnic and cultural links

[SunWuKong]

what are your thoughts on the ethnic and cultural links between the Japanese people and the Korean people?
i've read that there's a controversy surrounding the roots of the Yamato people of Japan.
some links to sources would be appreciated.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I just noticed a complete shortage of current Korean and Japanese male representation on YW... :unsure: Too many damn Chinese. :lol:

[SunWuKong]

yeah i would love to see more discussions about other asian cultures. specifically on japan, korea, and vietnam. i feel i know entirely too little.

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 20 2003, 03:18 PM
yeah i would love to see more discussions about other asian cultures. specifically on japan, korea, and vietnam. i feel i know entirely too little.
did u read that link i posted in the other thread yet?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by VV o n g B a@Jan 20 2003, 04:28 PM
did u read that link i posted in the other thread yet?
no, not yet
can you re-post it here? :D :D :D

[YuheiCarreau]

I'm Japanese. I even have Japanese citizenship (nyah nyah! I'm more Asian than you!). I've never been to Korea, but I have been to Viet Nam... I've been told that Koreans also take their shoes off when entering a house, and that they have houses made of paper screens, but I dunno if that's true. One thing I do know for sure is that Buddhism was introduced to Japan by Korea - there was a nation that existed within Korea's present-day boundaries whose king gave the Japanese emporor a gift of a statue of Buddha. As for stuff that the Japanese gave the Koreans; well, I remember hearing the missiles North Korea fired over Japan that time had a few parts in 'em that said "Sony" or "Made in Japan" :lol:

[VV o n g B a]

For lazy ass SWK. :D (http://www2.gol.com/users/hsmr/Content/East%20Asia/Japan/History/roots.html)

*edit - the above is written by jared diamond. he's written some fascinating stuff about how the agricultural and industrial revolutions weren't all to the benefit of mankind. he's also written a book debunking racial explanations to the current domination of english and western ideals. pulitzer prize winning author.

[Hiroshi2]

That was an interesting (albeit quite lengthy) read. Thanks for the link.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Jan 20 2003, 09:30 PM
I'm Japanese. I even have Japanese citizenship (nyah nyah! I'm more Asian than you!). I've never been to Korea, but I have been to Viet Nam... I've been told that Koreans also take their shoes off when entering a house, and that they have houses made of paper screens, but I dunno if that's true. One thing I do know for sure is that Buddhism was introduced to Japan by Korea - there was a nation that existed within Korea's present-day boundaries whose king gave the Japanese emporor a gift of a statue of Buddha. As for stuff that the Japanese gave the Koreans; well, I remember hearing the missiles North Korea fired over Japan that time had a few parts in 'em that said "Sony" or "Made in Japan" :lol:
It was my understanding that traditional Japanese, Korean, Chinese, and Vietnamese culture requires that shoes are removed upon entering the house. My parents usually don't appreciate it too much when I barge in and tread on the carpet to pick up my jacket and car keys that I no doubt forgot to bring on my first time out the door.

[BeTheReds]

Every Korean will tell you that all Japanese people, including the Imperial family are Koreans who left the peninsula and evolved a seperate language due to seperation. Japanese however are taught that they came from the sun goddess.

As for cultural similarities you have to go back further than 1905 to get anything that is not a direct result of Japanese occupation. (i.e. the not having a 4th floor in buildings, ramyun, tamuji, udong etc..)

What you will find is strong neo-confucian beliefs and and mahayana buddhism. Also, the fact that the Japanese and Korean languages have the same grammar, same particles, and even similar words (that is.. when you take away anything that is derived from kanji, cuz naturally those would be similar..) and that no other major languages in the area have this set of grammar, then it can pretty much be proven that they are the same people seperated by a sea.

You cannot however say that the languages are related because it has not been linguistically proven yet. They need the bullseye to prove such the thing. Pretty much everywhere it has been proven except for hard historical evidence that the Japanese came from the Korean peninsula. The only way that can be proven once and for all is if the imperial tombs can be opened.

Koreans want it to be opened. Japanese (at least the imperial institution) protect the secret from everyone, including their own archaeologists. The day it is opened, we will all know the truth. But at that point, will it matter?

[Napoleon Chynamite]

BTR

I cannot argue about the ethnic difference/similarity between K's and J's to a great extent because i do not know the history, but I guess I'm just going off of pure physical appearance (excluding dress styles, surgery, hair, etc.) in judging the validity of their ethnic relationship. No doubt you will definitely find closer similarities than say, between Japanese and Chinese or Japanese and Vietnamese (this seems to be partially common sense due to logic of proximity alone) but to say that they are the same people is a bit farfetched (just as with the Arabs and Jews, who may have originated from the same ethnic cloth but today they have branched off to become quite genetically and ethnically different, with Jews perhaps mixing more with European ethnic groups and Arabs, um...not?) I have also read that the Korean peninsula is more homogenous than almost any other country in the world, and that includes Japan. Japanese seem to have more genetic variation (perhaps due to interbreeding with native aborigines, Ainu, etc.), which would classify them as ethnically different. Arguably on the other hand, additional differences in physical appearance may also be the result of not only hygiene, dress, and styles, but from climate, way of life, and diet. But this whole cut from the same cloth idea is always hard to debate with because it just depends on how old the cloth is and how far back you wanna go.

A gigantic number of Korean vocabulary words are similar to Chinese in at least phonetic origin, but I guess you can call them loan words in such a way that English borrows much of its base vocabulary from Latin. Language is not always the best way to argue ethnic similarity I guess..but I dunno...after all, 1 billion Chinese speak the same thing but ethnically and genetically there is huge variation. I have read that you will find more variation in a single Chinese province than in most small countries in the world.

Of course to top it all off, it doesn't really matter...but I like typing :P

[thaite]

Uh, I do beleive that English is derived from the Old Germanic, and not Latin.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Yes my point exactly, just like how the Korean language does not derive itself from the Chinese language but in fact does borrow many Chinese words for its vocabulary. English may be derived from Germanic but it still borrows a lot of its vocabulary from Latin. I'm no linguist tho...so feel free to correct me.

[BeTheReds]

As for how linguistics can prove ethnic similarity..

Using words that sound similar proves nothing other than that these people have interacted with each other in the past and cultural exchange has occured. There is no controversy that can arise from sayin gthat. All people know that Koreans and Japanese have been interacting for a very long time.

However, gramatical structure on the other hand can be used to prove an ethnic similarity because gou can't borrow grammatical structure from another language. It is nearly impossible and would require that you force the grammar to change, and school your population to accept the changes. One of the faults of this theory is that people will suggest then that by it that French and Italians are the same people, but their linguistic similarity results in Latin being the official language of the Roman empire. But no doubt many Romans did breed with Gaulese.



Now I am not trying to say that Japanese are Koreans.. the whole notion of Japanese and Korean is a relatively new concept. All I am saying is that they both have common ancestors. Many of whom lived on what is now the Korean peninsula. After moving to what is now the Japanese Archipeligo, these people interbred with the Ainu, and with people who came there from other areas of asia, such as southern china or siberia.


Everyone knows that government and military started on the peninsula long before it did on the islands. Before the yayoi period, a people known as the jomon lived in Japan. They are famous for making large burial mounds, and the same mounds of these type can be found in Korea as well. Excavations of these Jomon burial mounds suggest that the people buried have ethnic similarity to the Ainu.

Meanwhile the period that archaelogists suggest replaceed the Jomon period is that called the Yayoi period. The Yayoi people in japan had advanced pottery making techniques that people suggest are more similar to findings in korea. What this proves is that before, the ainu lived in the southern part of the korean peninsula and most of japan. Then the ancestors of Koreans and Japanese who lived in northern korea, siberia, and manchuria, moved southward and kicked their ass. They then moved across the sea and on the japanese islands kicked their ass some more, so that the only ones left live in hokkaido and sakalin, meanwhile yellow people live all over korea and all over the rest of the japanese islands.

What I suggest is that the more sophisticated people from the Korean peninsula came into the islands and set up the Yamato house.

I am not saying that they are Koreans.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jan 22 2003, 01:33 AM
Everyone knows that government and military started on the peninsula long before it did on the islands. Before the yayoi period, a people known as the jomon lived in Japan. They are famous for making large burial mounds, and the same mounds of these type can be found in Korea as well. Excavations of these Jomon burial mounds suggest that the people buried have ethnic similarity to the Ainu.
can that be considered evidence supporting that the Ainu might have lived on the Korean peninsula?

[Napoleon Chynamite]

BTR:

Point taken, but just to add a twist of things for boredom's sake.... Arguably Chinese grammar is very similar to English grammar, but most people would not even attempt to prove that the Chinese ethnic group(s) are similar to the ethnic groups upon which English was spawned......... :confused: :P In this case it would be tough to use grammatical similarity to your advantage.

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jan 22 2003, 01:32 AM
BTR:

Point taken, but just to add a twist of things for boredom's sake.... Arguably Chinese grammar is very similar to English grammar, but most people would not even attempt to prove that the Chinese ethnic group(s) are similar to the ethnic groups upon which English was spawned......... :confused: :P In this case it would be tough to use grammatical similarity to your advantage.
in what ways is chinese grammar similar to english? there's no conjugation and there are a preponderance of one syllable words. meaning is communicated through pictographs instead of an alphabet. i'm sure u know of some similarities, i'm just wondering what they are.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by VV o n g B a@Jan 22 2003, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jan 22 2003, 01:32 AM
BTR:

Point taken, but just to add a twist of things for boredom's sake....  Arguably Chinese grammar is very similar to English grammar, but most people would not even attempt to prove that the Chinese ethnic group(s) are similar to the ethnic groups upon which English was spawned......... :confused:  :P  In this case it would be tough to use grammatical similarity to your advantage.
in what ways is chinese grammar similar to english? there's no conjugation and there are a preponderance of one syllable words. meaning is communicated through pictographs instead of an alphabet. i'm sure u know of some similarities, i'm just wondering what they are.
well the character vs. alphabets thing don't really have anything to do with grammar.
i think what he was trying to say is that as far as grammar goes, chinese and english are more similar to each other than chinese and korean or japanese are similar to each other, and more similar than english and french are similar to each other.

[VV o n g B a]

and more similar than english and french are similar to each other.

really? :confused: i had no idea.

edit: i thought that without conjugations and all the exceptions to rules that chinese and english wouldn't be all that similar. but since my chinese is at like a 2nd or 3rd grade level (if that) then i guess i wouldn't know that.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by VV o n g B a@Jan 22 2003, 09:38 AM

really? :confused: i had no idea.

edit: i thought that without conjugations and all the exceptions to rules that chinese and english wouldn't be all that similar. but since my chinese is at like a 2nd or 3rd grade level (if that) then i guess i wouldn't know that.
well i guess i was referring more to sentence structure.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by tazadar@Jan 22 2003, 10:47 AM
Growing up in my parents house, they did ot required shoes to be removed. My relatives do. Is it tradition or that Asians tend not want their house to be dirty. It's a bit of irritating that my sister requires people to take their shoes off in her house. Certainly, my parent did not passed that onto her. She said she doesn't want to get the floor dirty and it's hardwood floors. Why is it so hard to clean the damn floor? My house is cleaner than her's and it don't require people to take their shoes off.
yeah i did not think that it was in chinese tradition that you should take off your shoes in the home. but wasn't 100% sure.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by tazadar@Jan 22 2003, 10:49 AM
I have Chinese citizenship and I was born in China.
if you don't mind me asking, does that mean you're not a US citizen? and how long have you been in the US? to the best of my knowledge, the US and China does not allow for dual citizenship. however, you can hide your citizenship status from both countries...

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by tazadar@Jan 22 2003, 11:19 AM
I was naturalized at 17. 19 years

"US and China does not allow for dual citizenship."

Really? I didn't know that. I do have papers, well, my parents have them. Interesting, I'll asked around.
yeah you could get into trouble if found actively using both your chinese and american passports. more trouble if caught in china, i'd say.

check out this list (http://www.geocities.com/uscitizenship/dual.htm)

[DaBestSpooner]

they all came from china, and the people from china came from africa

[enygma]

language-wise, both korea and japan owe a lot to the chinese. although all three cultures have different languages and writing systems, there are some words that are very similar. i.e "san" means "mountain" in both korea and china while "yak-sok" means "promise" in korea and japan.
in one of my classes, though, we learned that asians came from somewhere north of japan and just split into the three different civilizations. whether or not this is theory or truth is anybody's guess. but because of the geographical proximity to one another, it shouldn't be surprising that there is a shared culture between korea and japan and even china for that matter.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Regarding my post on the grammatic similarities in sentence structure (or lack thereof) between Chinese and English, don't take it too seriously :unsure: :rolleyes: ...but I was just responding to BTR's line of how 'grammatical similarity' between languages can be used to help argue for 'ethnic similarity'. But I guess I was just under the impression that the ethnic similarity between Japanese and Koreans does not really need to be argued in the first place, but there's a big difference between being ethnically similar and ethnically identical (i.e. for lack of better term 'the same people')?

[DaBestSpooner]

Originally posted by enygma@Jan 22 2003, 12:49 PM
language-wise, both korea and japan owe a lot to the chinese. although all three cultures have different languages and writing systems, there are some words that are very similar. i.e "san" means "mountain" in both korea and china while "yak-sok" means "promise" in korea and japan.
in one of my classes, though, we learned that asians came from somewhere north of japan and just split into the three different civilizations. whether or not this is theory or truth is anybody's guess. but because of the geographical proximity to one another, it shouldn't be surprising that there is a shared culture between korea and japan and even china for that matter.
the words for numbers, days of the week, months, time, money, food, everyday items like telephones, cellphones, batteries are the same in chinese and japanese.

the way the chinese and the japanese people celebrate new years is similar too

there are also common holidays between the japanese and the chinese

[Napoleon Chynamite]

There are common holidays for Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and Vietnamese and perhaps other Asian countries that I don't know of...i.e. the new year, harvest moon festival, etc.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jan 22 2003, 03:31 PM
There are common holidays for Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and Vietnamese and perhaps other Asian countries that I don't know of...i.e. the new year, harvest moon festival, etc.
just a tidbit: (to the best of my knowledge) the japanese stopped celebrating lunar new year during the meiji reforms.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by DaBestSpooner@Jan 22 2003, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by enygma@Jan 22 2003, 12:49 PM
language-wise, both korea and japan owe a lot to the chinese.  although all three cultures have different languages and writing systems, there are some words that are very similar. i.e "san" means "mountain" in both korea and china while "yak-sok" means "promise" in korea and japan.
in one of my classes, though, we learned that asians came from somewhere north of japan and just split into the three different civilizations.  whether or not this is theory or truth is anybody's guess.  but because of the geographical proximity to one another, it shouldn't be surprising that there is a shared culture between korea and japan and even china for that matter.
the words for numbers, days of the week, months, time, money, food, everyday items like telephones, cellphones, batteries are the same in chinese and japanese.

the way the chinese and the japanese people celebrate new years is similar too

there are also common holidays between the japanese and the chinese
Again, I touched over that already.

Any Japanese/Korean word that is chinese in origin does not help the argument that they are the same people at all. You could exhaust a whole dictionary talking about all those words and people would laugh at you because it's a waste of time. Practically any kanji compound has its equivalent in korean that sounds nearly the same. The only thing you can prove is that China's culture was so dominant that it influenced the Korean and Japanese languages. And well duh, no one argues with that.

What I am talking about is the sentence structure, the presence of particles with nearly the same function, a similar set of sounds (there is evidence to suggest that in the past japanese had 8 vowels, not 5, and korean has 8 now, if you don't count the vowels that start with y a eo u oo e ae i o), Different levels of polite/informal speech. etc. Take a japanese or Korean linguistics course and you will see why it is suggested that the Japanese come from korea.

Anyway here are some examples.

Japanese: Kyou wa watashi ga gakoo e itte kita.
Korean: Onur un ne ga hakyou e katta wasseo.
Direct trans: Today (speaking about) I/me (particle) school to go came.

Eng grammar linguistic trans: As for today I came (here) having (earlier) gone to school.
Normal english translation: I went to school today.

Particles! (which are absent in chinese), even have the same spronunciations in some cases.
K:nun/un, ga e hago chal
J: wa , ga e/ni to yoku
E: copula, subject to/in with very

Making (want) statements requires you to chage the conjugation of a verb.
K: Kago(shipda) J:Iki(tai) Eng:I (want) to go

Adding to this conjugation, still one word with almost infinitive possiblilites for adding meaning to one word.

K: Kago(shipda)[myun]
J: Iki(ta)[kattara]
E: [If] I (want) to go

Tenses: K J E

Present kada iku go
Past kasseo itta went

There is no future tense. Just you have to say something like tomorrow/ or 3 hours from now, then use a present tense verb.

Now take into account that the only other major languages that have any slight similarity to this grammar are Turkish and Finnish.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jan 22 2003, 07:32 AM
BTR:

Point taken, but just to add a twist of things for boredom's sake.... Arguably Chinese grammar is very similar to English grammar, but most people would not even attempt to prove that the Chinese ethnic group(s) are similar to the ethnic groups upon which English was spawned......... :confused: :P In this case it would be tough to use grammatical similarity to your advantage.
Insects have wings, and birds have wings. Are they the result of the same evolutionary process in their common ancestor? No.

Languages evolve and there are bound to be similarites that serve the same functions in languages that are not closely related. Are you going to tell me that all the similarities between Korean and Japanese languages are coincidences?

To use my analogy:

English: Sparrow wings
Chinese: Dragonfly wings

Japanese: Lion's fur
Korean: Tiger's fur

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I'm kinda losing track here over what the argument is all about. I think originally it was all about whether or not the Japanese and Koreans were ethnically or genetically identical? No one is arguing about Chinese influence or whatever....and once again nobody is arguing about the obvious genetic and/or cultural similarities between Japanese and Koreans.

My final post on this subject because I don't think I know enough about these types of things to make any more sense..........Having studied at least a portion of the two following languages, Portuguese and Spanish are pretty much grammatically identical, and I'd say that not only are they grammatically identical, but their words are much more similar than say, Japanese vocabulary and Korean vocabulary...but I'm not sure if that increases the validity of the argument of whether or not native Portuguese and Spaniards are ethnically very very close (which they probably are, simply due to proximity, but are they identical?). Arguably, many Chinese may be genetically closer to either Vietnamese or Koreans or Japanese depending on which part of China their family tree was stationed than say other Chinese who lived in another part of China that is very very far off (i.e. I believe proximity is a much better indicator of genetic sameness). However, the vast majority of all Chinese speak the same language and obviously follow the same grammar.

I guess I just don't see very much room for argument here....I agree that grammatical similarities (or identicalness) between languages is a good and strong indicator for the reinforcement of the notion of ethnic similarity but once again there is a huge difference between similarity and being the 'same people'. Also, obviously this argument of grammatical similarity only works if it acts as a supplement or complement to your basic or other arguments which are probably more rooted into history of migration, etc. I guess it is just my idea and opinion that you gotta watch where you step before you say that this group is the 'same people' as another group.

*looks up ass, checks for more substance, but cannot find anything to pull out of there anymore*

P.S. BTR don't take my Chinese-English post thing seriously, as I mentioned earlier. It was merely some quirky observation that was not meant to hold any water in a serious argument.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 22 2003, 06:39 AM
can that be considered evidence supporting that the Ainu might have lived on the Korean peninsula?
Well everyone with a logical mind thinks so except for diehard Japanese nationalists.

No it can't be used as concrete evidence, that Ainu lived in Korea. But it can be used to say that at least, people with huge variation from the modern Korean/Japanese stock and relatively the same cultural achievements, once lived in southern Korea. Wether or not they got there by way of Japan or that the ones in Japan got there by way of Korea is unknown. However I would like to believe that Ainu came to the JApanese Islands by way of the Ice Age era land bridge connecting Hokkaido to Sakhalin and Siberia. They then inhabited the whole of the Japanese islands and southern korea. Meanwhile the wandering peoples of the manchuria (and parts eastward) region got sophisticated and started their shamanistic religion, settled in northern korea and spread southward where they met these ainu like people and expelled them from the peninsula. Then, the yellow people moved across the straight and with their technological superiority displaced the people who lived there pushing them further and further back to the areas which they first settled, Hokkaido, north Honshu, and Sakalin.

Evidence to support my claim:

There is increasingly more recent excavations of ainu/jomon living areas as one moves further north in Japan. The ones in southern korea are among the oldest found in japan.

Again, no concrete THESE WERE THE SAME PEOPLE evidence, but that's only a technicality.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jan 23 2003, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jan 22 2003, 07:32 AM
BTR:

Point taken, but just to add a twist of things for boredom's sake.... Arguably Chinese grammar is very similar to English grammar, but most people would not even attempt to prove that the Chinese ethnic group(s) are similar to the ethnic groups upon which English was spawned......... :confused: :P In this case it would be tough to use grammatical similarity to your advantage.
Insects have wings, and birds have wings. Are they the result of the same evolutionary process in their common ancestor? No.

Languages evolve and there are bound to be similarites that serve the same functions in languages that are not closely related. Are you going to tell me that all the similarities between Korean and Japanese languages are coincidences?

To use my analogy:

English: Sparrow wings
Chinese: Dragonfly wings

Japanese: Lion's fur
Korean: Tiger's fur
To use your own analogy against you:

It would be hard to argue that a lion and a tiger are genetically identical and the same animal. :D

P.S. just givin you a hard time, you can get me back later :ph34r:

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jan 22 2003, 06:21 PM
Regarding my post on the grammatic similarities in sentence structure (or lack thereof) between Chinese and English, don't take it too seriously :unsure: :rolleyes: ...but I was just responding to BTR's line of how 'grammatical similarity' between languages can be used to help argue for 'ethnic similarity'. But I guess I was just under the impression that the ethnic similarity between Japanese and Koreans does not really need to be argued in the first place, but there's a big difference between being ethnically similar and ethnically identical (i.e. for lack of better term 'the same people')?
Well you are not even ethnically identical to your mom.

To put this argument to rest:

My view:
Koreans and Japanese have the same common ancestor. This ancestor first settled the Korean peninsula before it settled the Japanese islands. Japanese do not want to protect imperial burial grounds out of reverence for the imperial house, which lost its diety status after WW2, they protect it because if concrete evidence suggests that the imperial house came from Korea, then it would be a huge hit to Japanese ego.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

But we all have a common ancestor! Argh sorry I guess I am just a stubborn mule but once again it depends on how far you go back. And once again I do recall you saying that Japanese and Koreans are basically 'the same people', and is this b/c they have a common ancestor?

I have no doubt that J's and K's had the same ancestor and are closely related. So if that is your final point, I agree with you. Argument finished :D

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jan 23 2003, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jan 23 2003, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jan 22 2003, 07:32 AM
BTR:

Point taken, but just to add a twist of things for boredom's sake.... Arguably Chinese grammar is very similar to English grammar, but most people would not even attempt to prove that the Chinese ethnic group(s) are similar to the ethnic groups upon which English was spawned......... :confused: :P In this case it would be tough to use grammatical similarity to your advantage.
Insects have wings, and birds have wings. Are they the result of the same evolutionary process in their common ancestor? No.

Languages evolve and there are bound to be similarites that serve the same functions in languages that are not closely related. Are you going to tell me that all the similarities between Korean and Japanese languages are coincidences?

To use my analogy:

English: Sparrow wings
Chinese: Dragonfly wings

Japanese: Lion's fur
Korean: Tiger's fur
To use your own analogy against you:

It would be hard to argue that a lion and a tiger are genetically identical and the same animal. :D

P.S. just givin you a hard time, you can get me back later :ph34r:
That analogy was not comparing Japanese people to Korean people. It compared the LANGUAGES. I have no argument with you there, the Japanese language and the Korean language are not the same language.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jan 23 2003, 12:57 AM
But we all have a common ancestor! Argh sorry I guess I am just a stubborn mule but once again it depends on how far you go back. And once again I do recall you saying that Japanese and Koreans are basically 'the same people', and is this b/c they have a common ancestor?

I have no doubt that J's and K's had the same ancestor and are closely related. So if that is your final point, I agree with you. Argument finished :D
okay.. last piece.

Same people now? no.

Same people 1500 years ago? maybe

Same people 2500 years ago? definately

You said it all depends on how back the cloth goes. If the cloth is 10 meters long, then the rip seperating Chinese and Japanese would be 1 cm while the one seperating Koreans and Japanese from northern chinese would be 1 meter.

More archaeological stuff.

Chinese Rice is different from Korean rice. Japanese and Korean rice are the same.

The Yayoi people were the first to bring rice agriculture to Japan, and they had to have learned it somewhere.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jan 23 2003, 01:06 AM
You said it all depends on how back the cloth goes. If the cloth is 10 meters long, then the rip seperating Chinese and Japanese would be 1 cm while the one seperating Koreans and Japanese from northern chinese would be 1 meter.


Oops, I meant the rip seperating Korea and Japan would be 1 cm, while the rip seperating both korea and japan from china would be 1 meter.

Yea.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I still feel that ethnic similarity relies more on region than anything else. And you cannot judge the rip that separates China from either Korea or Japan simply b/c Chinese are not one people and are not homogenous, and yes I know I've beaten that point into the ground. For some Chinese, the cloth rip is larger between themselves and other Chinese than the rip that separates them from say Vietnamese, Mongolians, Turks, Koreans, (i.e. all surrounding countries that may share a border w/ China). Once again however, I am only going by appearance alone. So where do you draw the line? Ethnicity is only limited to a country's borders. You have Chinese guys who are closer along the cloth to Turks than to other Chinese (i.e perhaps any type of Chinese that lives more east away from Turkey) because of where they are located on the mainland.

To me, it's quite plain and simple though that it makes sense that a lot of Koreans would share a lot of genetic similarities with Japanese and northern Chinese simply because of the proximity and proximity alone, without adding history into the mix since I know none of it. In fact, my initial take on this thing was based simply upon what I have noticed in physical appearance (b/c that is all I have to go by when judging the similarities of genetics). You have some Koreans that look more Chinese and some Koreans that look more Japanese (to me, and I'm not like saying that Koreans are some half-breed between the two), the guy that heads North Korea (Kim Pyong Il), to me, looks like one of those dorky Chinese mainland bureaucrats. But anyways.........I suppose if you have all the history to back it up, then more power to ya....it's just that the analogy thing doesn't really work with this issue.

Of course it all boils down to why am I still writing about this when I should be in bed by now...LOL

[BeTheReds]

Haha

Anyway you forgot the blue ass similarity too.

Take a look at Korean and Japanese babies.



Also...

while we might not be arguing about ethnic similarity anymore, my main point to everything was that it is possible, and even likely that the Yamato house which formed the first government on the Japanese isles, which the imperial house claims direct decension from... is Korean, or at least the house came from Korea.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

My brother had a blue ass....I think I did too....and I'm of southern-to-central Chinese origin

Actually....are we talking about the same thing? Those bluish spots on the rear...anyways if we're not...forget I ever said this, it's embarrassing!

[BeTheReds]

It's more of a giant fist sized hickey looking thing. Some Hispanics and siberians and eskimoes have that too.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

yeah that's us....I mean...my brother and my brother only.

[BeTheReds]

Right, well nearly all Koreans and Japanese have it, while only select portions of other peoples do.

What is the reason for that thing anyway?

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Maybe it's for looks. Like...'hey baby, check out my marks'

'Course, doesn't explain why they would fade then. I dunno............ :unsure:

[BeTheReds]

Yours faded?

[speshllkay]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jan 20 2003, 04:28 PM
My parents usually don't appreciate it too much when I barge in and tread on the carpet to pick up my jacket and car keys that I no doubt forgot to bring on my first time out the door.
That's one of my mom's biggest pet peeves. That and slapping the pillows together ("makes the room dusty")

[speshllkay]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jan 22 2003, 11:34 PM
Right, well nearly all Koreans and Japanese have it, while only select portions of other peoples do.

What is the reason for that thing anyway?
The "mongolian' spots? i've seen it on black children as well.

My daughter was born with the blue spots all over her. On both hands, feet, shoulders back and behind. She has a permanent blue spot on the shoulder.

When I was born, the US Army doctors tried to take me from my parents because of my spot. The round eye didn't know what it was on my three month check up. Thought I was abused.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by speshllkay@Jan 26 2003, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jan 22 2003, 11:34 PM
Right, well nearly all Koreans and Japanese have it, while only select portions of other peoples do.

What is the reason for that thing anyway?
The "mongolian' spots? i've seen it on black children as well.

My daughter was born with the blue spots all over her. On both hands, feet, shoulders back and behind. She has a permanent blue spot on the shoulder.

When I was born, the US Army doctors tried to take me from my parents because of my spot. The round eye didn't know what it was on my three month check up. Thought I was abused.
You gave birth to a leopard! :P :blush: :nerd: :)