China vs Taiwan

[Adaon]

I'm just curious.....it ALWAYS comes up, and I haven't seen a thread about it. So here goes:

I can understand that people from Taiwan want to be proud of where they come from. Who wouldn't want to be? But, on the stubby side of that subject, I'm curious as to how many families who claim to be Taiwanese are actually able to track their linage back to NATIVE Taiwanese people. I mean, a huge number of upper class Chinese cititzens left China prior to World War II and during the Communist Revolution. Most folks I've talked to in SF who claimed to be Taiwanese in descent and ancestry could not trace their family ties past the 20s - 50s in Taiwan.
I can understand how the ethnic Chinese from Taiwan don't wish to be associated with Communist China via their political views.....but culturally and genetically, a majority of Taiwanese are "Chinese." What I don't understand is how some people can misconscrue politcal views as genetic backgrounds. There's no basis for it.
In all honesty, my opinion of being Chinese is only a phrase to categorize people, just like being called Asian...it's a classification of people of an ethnic and cultural background...

[iris]

Followers of Chiang Kai-Shek! My parents are second generation Taiwanese and first generation Americans. Diaspora by the Revolution.

I really don't care. It's a diasporic transnationalism issue and I've got no ties to either China or Taiwan. They seem to be co-existing fine right now. People can claim to be whatever they want to be. If they want to be Taiwanese, go right ahead. If they want to say Chinese. Fine, whatever.

When people ask me "what are you," I usually say American.

[rakovlam]

Originally posted by Adaon@Jan 19 2003, 10:28 PM
I'm just curious.....it ALWAYS comes up, and I haven't seen a thread about it. So here goes:

I can understand that people from Taiwan want to be proud of where they come from. Who wouldn't want to be? But, on the stubby side of that subject, I'm curious as to how many families who claim to be Taiwanese are actually able to track their linage back to NATIVE Taiwanese people. I mean, a huge number of upper class Chinese cititzens left China prior to World War II and during the Communist Revolution. Most folks I've talked to in SF who claimed to be Taiwanese in descent and ancestry could not trace their family ties past the 20s - 50s in Taiwan.
I can understand how the ethnic Chinese from Taiwan don't wish to be associated with Communist China via their political views.....but culturally and genetically, a majority of Taiwanese are "Chinese." What I don't understand is how some people can misconscrue politcal views as genetic backgrounds. There's no basis for it.
In all honesty, my opinion of being Chinese is only a phrase to categorize people, just like being called Asian...it's a classification of people of an ethnic and cultural background...
That's like asking how many Americans can trace back to Native Americans.

[Adaon]

Originally posted by rakovlam@Jan 19 2003, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Adaon@Jan 19 2003, 10:28 PM
I'm just curious.....it ALWAYS comes up, and I haven't seen a thread about it. So here goes:

I can understand that people from Taiwan want to be proud of where they come from. Who wouldn't want to be? But, on the stubby side of that subject, I'm curious as to how many families who claim to be Taiwanese are actually able to track their linage back to NATIVE Taiwanese people. I mean, a huge number of upper class Chinese cititzens left China prior to World War II and during the Communist Revolution. Most folks I've talked to in SF who claimed to be Taiwanese in descent and ancestry could not trace their family ties past the 20s - 50s in Taiwan.
I can understand how the ethnic Chinese from Taiwan don't wish to be associated with Communist China via their political views.....but culturally and genetically, a majority of Taiwanese are "Chinese." What I don't understand is how some people can misconscrue politcal views as genetic backgrounds. There's no basis for it.
In all honesty, my opinion of being Chinese is only a phrase to categorize people, just like being called Asian...it's a classification of people of an ethnic and cultural background...
That's like asking how many Americans can trace back to Native Americans.
not quite, it's quite a bit easier to trace your roots back if you're Native American because many are registered in a database....I dun remember anymore, but my friend discovered her Cherokee Heritage this way....and a lot of people who might be Taiwanese would only have to ask their grandparents where they grew up....

[AltimaGTR]

Bein TAIWANESE, I call myself that because that's where I was born. I mean, if we tried tracing our origins and stuff we'd all consider ourselves African. But yeah, relations between Taiwan and China are cool right now, and its all good whether or not Taiwan becomes independent or stays as it is. LOL my dad used to be a Nationalist that strongly opposed the unification, but hey- 18 years in America can change a man.

[BeTheReds]

Well shit, if you wanna talk about ethnic and genetics then all Japanese are Korean. 1000 years from now, if there is still a taiwan and a china seperate from each other, would you still demand that all taiwanese are really chinese?

Chinese people aren't even all that closely genetically similar to themselves.

[iris]

Originally posted by AltimaGTR@Jan 20 2003, 11:25 AM
Bein TAIWANESE, I call myself that because that's where I was born. I mean, if we tried tracing our origins and stuff we'd all consider ourselves African. But yeah, relations between Taiwan and China are cool right now, and its all good whether or not Taiwan becomes independent or stays as it is. LOL my dad used to be a Nationalist that strongly opposed the unification, but hey- 18 years in America can change a man.
Yeah seriously dood. Some of my friend in Hong Kong are White and they've were born and raised here (HK) and they consider themselves Hong Kongers. It's trippy and I love it.

I was born in the good ol' United States.

[Adaon]

Bah, I am so NOT African descendant...and I did not descend from any monkey either....and I didn't demand all Taiwanese as Chinese, I'm merely stating that I believe some of the pride that people have as being "pure Taiwanese and not from China" is misplaced.....

[Adaon]

Dang, mis-stated last post....-sighs- most Taiwanese are descendants of Chinese immigrants/passers by....I'm not saying HEY, YOU'RE ALL NOT TAIWANESE...I'm just saying....that as much as people want to cry "I'm not Chinese, I'm Taiwanese." Great....but yeah, when someone implies you're ethnically Chinese, what's so wrong about being called Chinese?

[iris]

Originally posted by Adaon@Jan 20 2003, 11:31 AM
Bah, I am so NOT African descendant...and I did not descend from any monkey either....and I didn't demand all Taiwanese as Chinese, I'm merely stating that I believe some of the pride that people have as being "pure Taiwanese and not from China" is misplaced.....
Yeah I gets what you are saying. Pawr didi. *hugs*

And you just made a major part of my education obselete in a way.

<--- Anthroplogy major... :lol: :lol:

[SunWuKong]

i think it's kind of silly that we'd use the english terms of "Chinese" and "Taiwanese" in this discussion. what patrick really wants to say is that both are hua ren.

[MellowDrama]

Um.. anyone got some good ole Taiwanese native blood in em? Y'know, like "San di ren" (aka Tsou, Ami, Atayal, Rukai, Paiwan) and stuff? I know the famous Taiwanese singer A Mei is one.

There's a theory floating around, which has some credibility due to genetic testing, that the Taiwnese "aboriginies" are the closet living descendants of the ancient people that would come to populate Malaysia, Philippines, and Indonesia, the so-called "Austronesian" people. In other words, there is a genetic relatedness to the natives of Taiwan and the peoples of SE Asia.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by MellowDrama@Jan 20 2003, 02:03 AM
Um.. anyone got some good ole Taiwanese native blood in em? Y'know, like "San di ren" (aka Tsou, Ami, Atayal, Rukai, Paiwan) and stuff? I know the famous Taiwanese singer A Mei is one.

There's a theory floating around, which has some credibility due to genetic testing, that the Taiwnese "aboriginies" are the closet living descendants of the ancient people that would come to populate Malaysia, Philippines, and Indonesia, the so-called "Austronesian" people. In other words, there is a genetic relatedness to the natives of Taiwan and the peoples of SE Asia.
yeah, A-Mei is the daughter of a tribe chief. she's sort of like a princess. too bad her music sucks. :P

taiwanese aboriginals only make up about 5% of the population in taiwan now.

[MellowDrama]

Yeah that's what I heard. But do a some people have at least some "native" blood in em? I would imagine the situation is not unlike the Ainu and the Ryukyu in Japan, how they got interbred out of existence.

[BaiginLong]

honestly I think that most Taiwanese (excluding the aboriginals) are Chinese because we essentially have the same cultural and genetic roots
politically we may have some differences but see I'm of Chinese descent but I hate the communists with a passion but I still associate myself with the country because I associate myself with the culture and traditions of China
I don't know why the Taiwanese are so adamant in distinguishing themselve from the Chinese they essentially take on the same cultural roots and traditions as we Chinese do. I can understand though because I would rather not be considered a damn communist but then still
wo men da jia do shi zhong guo ren

No I don't think Taiwan is a part of china but we are still the same ppl
hey cantonese is a legitimate dialect thank you very much
and there are a hell of a lot more dialects than just the ones you mentioned
let's leave the economic and technological crap out of this becuase both countries are growing anyway so what's the use of making those distinctions
and DBS let's not diss our own people ok

and what's wrong with being of African descent?

[SunWuKong]

ok everybody keep the bullshit down. that's directed at both sides. this can be a very interesting discussion, but only if it's civil. otherwise i'll be closing it down.


edit: actually fuck that, i'm going to be editing people's posts. so don't bother posting any bullshit because i'll edit your entire post out. thanks.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by tazadar@Jan 20 2003, 10:49 AM
Taiwan's earliest inhabitants were aborigines, the people of Malay-Polynesian descent or Austronesians (who settled the islands of the Pacific Ocean; Indonesia, Micronesia, and Polynesia). The aborigines either assimiluated with the Han Chinese or some indigenous people were driven to the mountains - "mountain people" - which today consists less than two percent of the 21 million population of Taiwan. The island is inheritly part of China's terroritory dating back to the Sui Dynasty (580-618).
2%? i thought they number at 5%?

interesting tidbit. there is actually a little trace of Dutch blood in many aboriginal Taiwanese. when the Ming dynasty general Koxinga defeated the Dutch colonialists, many of the Dutch people escaped to live in the mountains, where the aboriginal Taiwanese lived.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by tazadar@Jan 20 2003, 10:49 AM
It's that the ROC had lost the civil war for China and in keeping their existence changed objective to secession of Taiwan. I have only contempt for Taiwanese that deny they're Chinese ethnicity. I don't like Communist, either. If Taiwanese support an independent Taiwan, then we as Chinese have succeeded in carving up China where the G8 had failed.
again, it's silly to think in terms of the English words "Chinese" and "Taiwanese", because it leaves no room for consideration of cultural proximity.

[SunWuKong]

ok i found something that might be of interest:

On Thursday October 26, 2000, on "21:00, Quan Min Kai Jiang" or "21:00, Speaking Your Mind," a popular politically oriented talk show, the question for the evening was:

"Who are we? Should the president's standard reply be: Taiwanese? Taiwan Huaren? Or Taiwan Chinese?"

For those unfamiliar with the current controversy raging on Taiwan, answering "Taiwanese" means the respondent considers him or herself "Taiwanese, neither culturally nor politically Chinese." Answering "Taiwan Huaren" means the respondent considers him or herself ethnically and culturally Chinese, but politically a foreign national, e.g., an ethnic Chinese Singaporean. Answering "Taiwan Chinese" means the respondent considers him or herself both Taiwanese and Chinese, e.g., both a Virginian and an American, with no conflict between the two.

Of the 8,543 viewers who called in, 657 or 8% said"Taiwanese," 106 or 1% said "Taiwan Huaren," and 7,780 or 91% said "Taiwan Chinese."

http://www.antiwar.com/chu/c103100.html


although i don't know who watches that talk show. maybe the callers were overwhelmingly composed of KMT supporters.

[VV o n g B a]

recently i've noticed some formerly staunch supporters-of-taiwan-independence friends of mine change their attitudes. they've either come to a grudging acceptance that china and taiwan will forever be linked or they've completely switched sides and root for chinese dominance in the world.

i kinda wish china ends up like the pro-EU supporters proposes to europe end up... in a federation or confederation or something like it. where provices in china (including taiwan) are accorded more freedom from the central govn't but ppl are free to move within china to find jobs and things of that nature and to vote in their respective provinces for presidents. the national gov't's only responsibility then would be foreign policy and fiscal issues. each region would have a freer hand in trying out new laws and policies than it would with the central govn't dictating whats good for a region that they have little contact with.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by VV o n g B a@Jan 20 2003, 11:53 AM
recently i've noticed some formerly staunch supporters-of-taiwan-independence friends of mine change their attitudes. they've either come to a grudging acceptance that china and taiwan will forever be linked or they've completely switched sides and root for chinese dominance in the world.

i kinda wish china ends up like the pro-EU supporters proposes to europe end up... in a federation or confederation or something like it. where provices in china (including taiwan) are accorded more freedom from the central govn't but ppl are free to move within china to find jobs and things of that nature and to vote in their respective provinces for presidents. the national gov't's only responsibility then would be foreign policy and fiscal issues. each region would have a freer hand in trying out new laws and policies than it would with the central govn't dictating whats good for a region that they have little contact with.
oh nooooo
the EU is very inefficient.
and also, you're basically talking about the canadian model. no offense to canadians, but i'd rather not see china become like that.

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 20 2003, 10:57 AM
oh nooooo
the EU is very inefficient.
and also, you're basically talking about the canadian model. no offense to canadians, but i'd rather not see china become like that.
inefficient how? u mean competitionwise? if so, i agree. but thats because of leftover socialistic policies and not what i consider the "structure" of the EU.

and notice how i said "end up." i don't want to see china look like the current EU. whats wrong with canada? i don't really know how their gov't is structured.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by VV o n g B a@Jan 20 2003, 12:10 PM
whats wrong with canada? i don't really know how their gov't is structured.
it's a confederacy

[TyroneK(prettypretty)]

I don't believe Taiwanese and Chinese people are ethnically different. The people who emphasize unification are often the ones who ignore the fact that the Taiwanese Chinese have had a long tradition of being separated from the mainland politically and, to a lesser extent, culturally. I find that, given the broader ethnic, cultural and economic ties and the more popular concept of free trade, we could have two independent states that are closely tied and enjoy the benefits of unification without hostile parties.

I know that practically independence is impossible, but I don't see what's so crazy about still wanting it if the geopolitical reality was different. It's one thing to call someone on their BS ethnic separation. It's another thing to ask them to give up the self-determination and democracy that many Taiwanese suffered and worked for so they can be beholden to another government that's not even accountable to its own people, let alone the people living in Taiwan.

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 20 2003, 11:11 AM
it's a confederacy
oh ok. but whats wrong w/ canada that u don't want china to look like it?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by VV o n g B a@Jan 20 2003, 12:15 PM
oh ok. but whats wrong w/ canada that u don't want china to look like it?
quebec wants to be independent, and almost succeeding in making that so.
that's bullshit.
i'm all for a powerful centralised government. i just think it's more effective.

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 20 2003, 11:22 AM
quebec wants to be independent, and almost succeeding in making that so.
that's bullshit.
i'm all for a powerful centralised government. i just think it's more effective.
thats actually part of the reason that i think a confederation is good. more self-determination. but i see your point. u have more emphasis on the majority while i have more emphasis on the minority.

then again, i'd like to see a unified world gov't (kinda like wylin) so maybe i don't actually disagree with u that much.

[Adaon]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 19 2003, 09:51 PM
i think it's kind of silly that we'd use the english terms of "Chinese" and "Taiwanese" in this discussion. what patrick really wants to say is that both are hua ren.
YES!! That's what I mean!! But I just didn't understand how political POVs could split people up...I mean yeah in the end, we're all human, and we all bleed if you stab us, etc etc.....

[Adaon]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 20 2003, 08:27 AM
again, it's silly to think in terms of the English words "Chinese" and "Taiwanese", because it leaves no room for consideration of cultural proximity.
My question, now. is how long does it really take for a culture to be created/established that you could draw it(new culture) clear from any of the other cultures/influences that it (new culture) had derived from??

America, for example, itself and its history only stretches back technically only about 225 years, and yet in that span socially, the American "culture" has many holidays and other nuances that make it original unto itself. I mean not many other countries I can readily think of celebrate Easter (supposedly Christ's resurrection from the dead, THAT Easter celebration) with the Easter Bunny and his eggs.

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by Adaon@Jan 20 2003, 12:02 PM
My question, now. is how long does it really take for a culture to be created/established that you could draw it(new culture) clear from any of the other cultures/influences that it (new culture) had derived from??

America, for example, itself and its history only stretches back technically only about 225 years, and yet in that span socially, the American "culture" has many holidays and other nuances that make it original unto itself. I mean not many other countries I can readily think of celebrate Easter (supposedly Christ's resurrection from the dead, THAT Easter celebration) with the Easter Bunny and his eggs.
how about koreans? i know some south koreans who will only identify themselves as south korean and not korean in general.

[Adaon]

Originally posted by VV o n g B a@Jan 20 2003, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by Adaon@Jan 20 2003, 12:02 PM
My question, now. is how long does it really take for a culture to be created/established that you could draw it(new culture) clear from any of the other cultures/influences that it (new culture) had derived from??

America, for example, itself and its history only stretches back technically only about 225 years, and yet in that span socially, the American "culture" has many holidays and other nuances that make it original unto itself. &nbsp;I mean not many other countries I can readily think of celebrate Easter (supposedly Christ's resurrection from the dead, THAT Easter celebration) with the Easter Bunny and his eggs.
how about koreans? i know some south koreans who will only identify themselves as south korean and not korean in general.
well, i mean....okay....we're all people....with identities and backgrounds which we identify with......like South Koreans......"south" is just the adjective describing the location of the area of which the people you know identify themselves.....they're koreans who are from the south -duh, i'm stupid-......but culturally Koreans have set themselves aside and different than the Japanese that BeTheReds seemed to think I was categorizing them in, from an earlier post.....because I'm not......the people you know and identify themselves are Koreans from the south, with political views different than Koreans in the north.....culturally and historically before the communist revolution occured in Korea, North and South had a common background.......

[Adaon]

Originally posted by tazadar@Jan 20 2003, 10:11 AM
Are you arguing that if culturally Taiwanese are different then there's a basis for independence?
I am by no means trying to demean Taiwanese independence, nor their basis for independence. Their reasons for being independent are their own/ What gets my goat is that because some Taiwanese folks I know try to erase the fact that they descend from people who had long time standing been from China.....what gets my goat is a lot of the Taiwanese people I've met in the Bay Area of California claim to be the indigenious Taiwanese, when they really are not.....that was the whole point of this thread, but I'm thinking a lot of people are shooting off on tangents that I didn't account for because I wasn't clear on how to state my idea/frustrations.....sorry folks for the inconvenience of that....

[Adaon]

Originally posted by BaiginLong@Jan 20 2003, 01:35 AM
and what's wrong with being of African descent?
nothing's wrong with being of African descent. It's just my belief that I am not descended from anyone from Africa. Now if I happen to trace my family roots, (which so far I've only been able to trace back to a local village outside of Canton, and Beijing) then I'll eat crow and eat my words and be happy about my long long distant African heritage. :)

[Adaon]

Originally posted by rakovlam@Jan 19 2003, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Adaon@Jan 19 2003, 10:28 PM
I'm just curious.....it ALWAYS comes up, and I haven't seen a thread about it. So here goes:

I can understand that people from Taiwan want to be proud of where they come from. Who wouldn't want to be? But, on the stubby side of that subject, I'm curious as to how many families who claim to be Taiwanese are actually able to track their linage back to NATIVE Taiwanese people. I mean, a huge number of upper class Chinese cititzens left China prior to World War II and during the Communist Revolution. Most folks I've talked to in SF who claimed to be Taiwanese in descent and ancestry could not trace their family ties past the 20s - 50s in Taiwan.
I can understand how the ethnic Chinese from Taiwan don't wish to be associated with Communist China via their political views.....but culturally and genetically, a majority of Taiwanese are "Chinese." What I don't understand is how some people can misconscrue politcal views as genetic backgrounds. There's no basis for it.
In all honesty, my opinion of being Chinese is only a phrase to categorize people, just like being called Asian...it's a classification of people of an ethnic and cultural background...
That's like asking how many Americans can trace back to Native Americans.
That's true, but a majority of Americans who immigrated here and otherwise descended from immigrants (like about 95% or more of the total population) are culturally American....whether they like it or not they observe a majority of holidays that have been modified by the American society....Halloween, Valentine's Day, Easter, Asian Lunar New Year, Christmas, heck even days of the year that aren't even really the birthdays of the historical people we're supposedly celebrating.....whether they like it or not, they observe the American culture that surrounds them....

[Adaon]

aww damn, sorry, misread BTR's post about Koreans being Japanese.....he actually said Well shit, if you wanna talk about ethnic and genetics then all Japanese are Korean. &nbsp;

My bad, misread that....but I don't think that changes what I wanted to say in the post....

[Craig]

If somebody claims to be 'native Taiwanese', just argue with them that the natives are related to Malays, Filipinos, Indonesians, etc. My experience has been they will back off and admit to be of Chinese descent and tell you when their ancestors moved to Taiwan.

[Adaon]

Originally posted by Craig@Jan 20 2003, 10:57 AM
If somebody claims to be 'native Taiwanese', just argue with them that the natives are related to Malays, Filipinos, Indonesians, etc. My experience has been they will back off and admit to be of Chinese descent and tell you when their ancestors moved to Taiwan.
Word. Thanks Craig. :lol:

[SunWuKong]

i think culturally speaking, they should just identify with whatever they want to identify with. it's really not something for non-taiwanese people to be upset about, because it's an issue of self-identification.

personally i consider taiwanese people chinese as well, that they're both chinese and taiwanese, sort of like how cantonese people are chinese as well, and shanghainese people are chinese as well.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jan 20 2003, 03:26 AM
Well shit, if you wanna talk about ethnic and genetics then all Japanese are Korean. 1000 years from now, if there is still a taiwan and a china seperate from each other, would you still demand that all taiwanese are really chinese?

Chinese people aren't even all that closely genetically similar to themselves.
I am fairly certain that Japanese and Koreans are not ethnically identical. Similar perhaps, but then again aren't we all in a way :rolleyes: I can usually always tell the difference in the facial features, and on the whole Japanese seem to have larger eyes and shorter stature, and some of them either look either more Mongolian or Pacific Islander or Southern Chinese, but then again I'm no anthropologist.

Regarding China vs. Taiwan, I was born here and quite frankly I don't really give a shit whether they are unified or not, or whether Taiwanese are considered Taiwanese or Chinese. I have heard from people that it pisses Taiwanese off that I don't care or don't see them as independent or whatever, but oh well..I'm not going to change my views so that some people will be happy. I don't really see them as anything but people from the island of Taiwan. When I was growing up amid my ignorance, I thought that Taiwan was stuck to China and that Korea was an island above Japan.. *shrug* My parents would have friends come over for dinner and they'd tell me that 'they were from Taiwan' but since they spoke the same language I didn't give it much thought and I just thought 'oh ok they're Chinese,...' It's not an issue that is significant to me personally.

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jan 20 2003, 02:49 PM
I am fairly certain that Japanese and Koreans are not ethnically identical. &nbsp;Similar perhaps, but then again aren't we all in a way &nbsp;:rolleyes: &nbsp; I can usually always tell the difference in the facial features, and on the whole Japanese seem to have larger eyes and shorter stature, and some of them either look either more Mongolian or Pacific Islander or Southern Chinese, but then again I'm no anthropologist.
heh, here's what famed anthopologist jared diamond had to say on that topic:

Japanese Roots (http://www2.gol.com/users/hsmr/Content/East%20Asia/Japan/History/roots.html)

its long, but good. btw, i'm in the middle of reading guns, germs, and steel. only got to chapter 2 , but it's been a great read so far.

[SunWuKong]

here's a thread i started on links between koreans and the japanese. cheers. :) (http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?act=ST&f=37&t=5333)

[Fireblade]

I think personally, pat is just suggesting in all aspects of this arguement, that though you can be nationally tawainese, like I am american, you are ethnically chinese. As I am ethnically chinese as well. So using that basis, if you are ethnically chinese, but call yourself ethnically tawianese, then... umm.... I really dunno what to say. I mean, that's he's trying to say, isn't it?

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Unicorns are originally from China? But unicorns are white...... :rolleyes: :lol:

[Napoleon Chynamite]

a button has beena pusshhheddd

[wylin]

the censoring of pro-taiwanese information and thoughts pisses me off. Because of such an admin who cant accept taiwanese independance talk and censors a fellow moderators posts im leaving.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 20 2003, 02:10 PM
ok everybody keep the bullshit down. that's directed at both sides. this can be a very interesting discussion, but only if it's civil. otherwise i'll be closing it down.


edit: actually fuck that, i'm going to be editing people's posts. so don't bother posting any bullshit because i'll edit your entire post out. thanks.
Or you could further piss people off by editing and inserting words and phrases into their posts so that the intended meaning is skewed but it seems as though they still posted sumthin :P

for example,

"Fuck this shit, I'm sick of fucking censorhip, WAAAAAAAAAAAAA"
to
"Fuck this shit, I'm sick of fucking people, I need some sheep, BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"

[AltimaGTR]

Woah chill, this thread is highly flammable and should not be located near any heat source/fire. :ph34r:

[Napoleon Chynamite]

too layte :lol:

[AltimaGTR]

I once was a major pro-Taiwan person. I'd personally get into these heated discussions with Chinese FOBs over stupid stuff like Tienanmen and other past crap. It never got me anywhere and now I look back and see how pointless those discussions were. I'm going to go banal and say "let go of the past."

Currently I consider myself a mella-Taiwan-fella :D ITS ALL GOOD! In the words of the great TaiMaiShu: "Chinese pee-pohl...Japanese pee-pohl...EVERY pee-pohl...throw your hands up!"

[achtungbaby]

I'm going to enjoy continuing to delete posts that are inappropriate:)

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by tazadar@Jan 20 2003, 10:04 PM
AB, you should replace bad words with heart emoticon.
If I had the time or energy to waste on trying to keep things civil, I might. Then again, all I have is time and energy...hmmm.

As an "outsider" on this issue, obviously I'm not going to get that hot around the collar about it. But like any other hot button topic, please remember the rules for engagement.

[BaiginLong]

Originally posted by AltimaGTR@Jan 20 2003, 11:30 PM
Currently I consider myself a mella-Taiwan-fella :D ITS ALL GOOD! In the words of the great TaiMaiShu: "Chinese pee-pohl...Japanese pee-pohl...EVERY pee-pohl...throw your hands up!"
hell fucking yeah Tony

[SunWuKong]

let me explain.

wylin's first post did not have anything to do with taiwan or china. it simply made fun of korean people.

wylin's second post elaborated on the fact that many computer components are manufactured in taiwan, and while that is information to note, he also made fun of cantonese people as well as vietnamese people in his own subtle ways.

whether or not the editing of posts are justified are not up for questioning. elbert and i will have final say.

[achtungbaby]

So anyway, let's get back onto topic: since I don't know anything about it, I'll be the one to ask the dumb questions (again):

If the Taiwanese people want to remain independent, regardless of whether they may or may not be misguided in their notions of ethnicity, why should that be stopped?

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 20 2003, 10:19 PM
whether or not the editing of posts are justified are not up for questioning. elbert and i will have final say.
To which I should add: it's not like we're some fascists censoring everyone out there. We censor shit that's obviously inappropriate and offensive to others.

If you feel you cannot help but post offensive and negative commentary to the posts, then just know that we in turn cannot help but edit them :HH:

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by tazadar@Jan 20 2003, 10:26 PM
The secession of the colonial America from the British empire was called a revolution. The secession of the southern states from the Union was called a civil war. If Taiwan wants secession from China then there's going to be a war. Most Taiwan Chinese don't want that, they just don't want to be ruled by the PRC government.
Well if you threaten to kill someone else, most of the time, they'll comply with what you ask:)

Regarding the American Revolution and Civil War, in both, there was first some type of established order and then a decision to attempt to break from that. I was under the impression that Taiwan had already broken away.

[AltimaGTR]

Well, Chang-Kai-Shek's people fled to Taiwan in the hopes that one day they would return to retake all of China. Aint that a bit ironic? hehe

[AltimaGTR]

True that, and if China does indeed decide to take over it by force, what would be left for them to control? Bombed-out cities and a ravaged countryside? They only want Taiwan for economic gain...

[SunWuKong]

no, i really don't think china would actually invade. that would set its economy back years if not decades.

this is how it works: chen shui bian makes a comment that the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) does not like, the CCP threatens to invade, taiwanese stock markets plummet, chen shui bian retracts or modifies his comment. repeat. it's kind of dumb in my opinion, because the best way for the CCP to persuade reunification is to win over taiwanese people's hearts. threatening invasion is not exactly getting on any taiwanese people's good sides.

but i'm not all-knowing. if the CCP actually does invade, you can bet your ass i'd be all out against it. that's like brother killing brother.

[TyroneK(prettypretty)]

Dude. This is the most civil this thread is going to be. No one's going to change anyone else's mind and we've maxed out the points we've intended to make. Can you lock it?

[kasia]

Originally posted by Adaon@Jan 20 2003, 10:42 AM
I am by no means trying to demean Taiwanese independence, nor their basis for independence. Their reasons for being independent are their own/ What gets my goat is that because some Taiwanese folks I know try to erase the fact that they descend from people who had long time standing been from China.....what gets my goat is a lot of the Taiwanese people I've met in the Bay Area of California claim to be the indigenious Taiwanese, when they really are not.....that was the whole point of this thread, but I'm thinking a lot of people are shooting off on tangents that I didn't account for because I wasn't clear on how to state my idea/frustrations.....sorry folks for the inconvenience of that....
is that your only rant? because i really don't think it's that prevalent that Taiwanese people claim to be aboriginese (when they're really not). i'm also from the bay area, went to a taiwanese-dominated mandarin school for 10 years, and most of the taiwanese kids i met were very much aware of the political history between china and taiwan - more than any cantonese kid. they refuse to be labeled as 'chinese' because they view it as a political identity.

[Adaon]

to me it seemed a bit bigger than that Kas....they flat out denied themselves as Chinese.....like it was a bad thing.....well...it's their choice whether they take it or not and it's their choice about what they consider themselves....I have no say in it....but it gets my goat.....like being Chinese is a bad thing....bah...being communist would turn heads, but being chinese is FAR from being a bad thing because of how someone might view politcal views.....heck I'm outta this thread....I started it...I'm out....I've said my fill and frankly I kinda dun like being the one who started quite a loud bit of ruckus.....but it did feel good to voice my opinion......I'm not saying all the taiwanese in the Bay Area....just some of the ones I've met IRL, like form my church and stuff.....others just say hey, I'm Chinese American.....

[wylin]

heres group of BBS postings reflecting a mature and uncensored view of the topic. unlike our resident Red admin wants us to see. Nehows kasia heres ur article i think these postings say my position well enuff.

My opinion on this issue is that Taiwan is a rogue state who have no right to be independent from China because Taiwan stole millions of dollars worth of gold in 1949 and because China and Taiwan have basically the same culture. The Taiwanese should stop counting on America to protect them because America is only trying to inch even more dominance on the world's nations.
Garry Smith, UK

Garry Smith couldn't have got it more right. People are forgetting history here. Taiwan is and always will be part of mainland China. Try telling my Chinese girlfriend any different. And I believe she shares the majority opinion. You have to understand how the Chinese Government feel- this land was illegally taken from them in 1949, and they have every right to want it back. Why should a rogue, made-up state suddenly be in a position to be independent?
Nick, UK/China

Nick (UK/China) voices the most commonly used argument for China's claim to Taiwan, the "historical claim" argument. However, this argument is tenuous, and breaks down when you consider the geopolitical history of both "countries". During the 20th century Taiwan was governed by China for a paltry 3 years. However, Japan governed Taiwan with relative civility for nearly 100 years before the Versailles Treaty awarded it to China in 1947. Don't the Japanese also have a historical claim over the island, through the spoils of war? Let's take this historical claim argument a step further. In the Han Dynasty, China controlled Korea and parts of Vietnam. Why should China stop with Taiwan and not also bully these countries back into the empire? China will not be taken seriously as a modern civilized nation as long as its childish schoolyard bullying continues.
Kevin C., USA

Taiwan people have the right to decide their own future but they must respect the facts of history, geography and the sentiments of the whole Chinese society. There is no ultimate truth in a political system. Everything is changing. But the most important thing for Chinese is their culture, society, motherland.
Kyaw Zwa, Myanmar

Independence? Independence from what? We all share the same culture, same history, same blood. In order to claim independence some sort of difference must be present to separate the one from the other.
Jia Zhuang, London, UK

ia Zhuang, London, UK wrote "We all share the same culture, same history, same blood" This is ridiculous! As of same history, just look at the past 50 years as an example of how the Communist China regime killed lots of innocent civilans with their bloody totalitarian control. Taiwan was once under totaliatrian control under the ruling of the Chiang family. As of same culture,if you go to Taiwan, 90% of people speak Taiwanese. Even Taiwanese food is so different from the China food! The Taiwanese living in Taiwan have their own unique distinct culture that mainland Chinese people cannot relate to. Please do not use the blood argument when the political structure of the state(Taiwan) has changed over the past 50 years!
Jeannie Chen, USA

The People's Republic of China would kill the goose that laid the golden egg if it attacked Taiwan. The PRC needs to bow to the wishes of its citizens and let go of the corrupt totalitarian state. History shows that societies that value the rights of individuals are more progressive and productive, and provide greater benefits for all than socialist states.
Greg Burton, USA

Countries that adhere "One China" policy are "hypocrites" in general and US in particular. If the US see Taiwan as a part of China, why do then sell arms and ammunition to Taiwan without the central authorities in China? As far as Taiwan is concern it has been an independent state in every aspect ever since it broke away from the Mainland. Declaring independence is only ceremonial for the name sake. Whether one agrees or not Taiwan acts as an independent nation. The UN should accept Taiwan as a member state.
Saifudeen, Madras-India



excerpted from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/2173383.stm

nehows this is my last post in YW, i obstain in protest of the mainland anti independence sentiment here in YW of our power tripping communist admin (not AB or kasia).

** Taiwan independence for life down with the Reds! ***

[SunWuKong]

once again, i edited your posts because you were making fun of others (and in this thread alone, that included koreans, the cantonese, and the vietnamese), not because you were advocating taiwanese independence. i happened to have edited DBS's post because he made fun of taiwanese people. i would be perfectly happy to argue the taiwan issue with you, but not when all you do is make fun of others. and notice how i did not edit this last post you just made despite the fact that you called me a "power tripping communist". i'm being generous here.

Nick (UK/China) voices the most commonly used argument for China's claim to Taiwan, the "historical claim" argument. However, this argument is tenuous, and breaks down when you consider the geopolitical history of both "countries". During the 20th century Taiwan was governed by China for a paltry 3 years. However, Japan governed Taiwan with relative civility for nearly 100 years before the Versailles Treaty awarded it to China in 1947. Don't the Japanese also have a historical claim over the island, through the spoils of war? Let's take this historical claim argument a step further. In the Han Dynasty, China controlled Korea and parts of Vietnam. Why should China stop with Taiwan and not also bully these countries back into the empire? China will not be taken seriously as a modern civilized nation as long as its childish schoolyard bullying continues.
Kevin C., USA

Several pieces of inaccurate information in what this person wrote.

Taiwan came under control of China during the mid to late 1600s. In 1662, Taiwan came under the control of Ming dynasty rebels, lead by Koxinga, that drove out the Dutch colonialists and established a base there for the purpose of attacking the newly established Qing dynasty. By 1683, these rebels were defeated and Taiwan came under control of the Qing dynasty. It was in 1895 that Japan gained control of Taiwan, and the island was returned to Chinese control in 1945 when Japan was defeated in WW2. So no, Japan did not control Taiwan for 100 years as that poster would like people to believe. In fact, it was 50 years - the same number of years that Japan controlled Korea, if I am correct.

Yes, historically China controlled parts of the Korean peninsula and parts of what is now Vietnam. The difference here is that China had relinquished claim on these parts of Asia hundreds of years ago. China had never relinquished claim on Taiwan.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by tazadar@Jan 21 2003, 04:03 PM
Taiwan is Chinese terroritory dating back to Sui Dynasty (580-618).
i was not aware that china laid claim to taiwan as early as the sui dynasty. care to post some links up?

[Fireblade]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jan 20 2003, 05:42 PM
Unicorns are originally from China? But unicorns are white...... :rolleyes: :lol:
Bah... Click on the link in my sig. Makes sense. *rolls his eyes*

[wylin]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 21 2003, 12:27 PM
once again, i edited your posts because you were making fun of others (and in this thread alone, that included koreans, the cantonese, and the vietnamese), not because you were advocating taiwanese independence. i happened to have edited DBS's post because he made fun of taiwanese people. i would be perfectly happy to argue the taiwan issue with you, but not when all you do is make fun of others. and notice how i did not edit this last post you just made despite the fact that you called me a "power tripping communist". i'm being generous here.

Nick (UK/China) voices the most commonly used argument for China's claim to Taiwan, the "historical claim" argument. However, this argument is tenuous, and breaks down when you consider the geopolitical history of both "countries". During the 20th century Taiwan was governed by China for a paltry 3 years. However, Japan governed Taiwan with relative civility for nearly 100 years before the Versailles Treaty awarded it to China in 1947. Don't the Japanese also have a historical claim over the island, through the spoils of war? Let's take this historical claim argument a step further. In the Han Dynasty, China controlled Korea and parts of Vietnam. Why should China stop with Taiwan and not also bully these countries back into the empire? China will not be taken seriously as a modern civilized nation as long as its childish schoolyard bullying continues.
Kevin C., USA

Several pieces of inaccurate information in what this person wrote.

Taiwan came under control of China during the mid to late 1600s. In 1662, Taiwan came under the control of Ming dynasty rebels, lead by Koxinga, that drove out the Dutch colonialists and established a base there for the purpose of attacking the newly established Qing dynasty. By 1683, these rebels were defeated and Taiwan came under control of the Qing dynasty. It was in 1895 that Japan gained control of Taiwan, and the island was returned to Chinese control in 1945 when Japan was defeated in WW2. So no, Japan did not control Taiwan for 100 years as that poster would like people to believe. In fact, it was 50 years - the same number of years that Japan controlled Korea, if I am correct.

Yes, historically China controlled parts of the Korean peninsula and parts of what is now Vietnam. The difference here is that China had relinquished claim on these parts of Asia hundreds of years ago. China had never relinquished claim on Taiwan.
go ))<============= radford. enuff of this BS and power trip for u. im outs. hope the gods of rogain shine upon you.

if u want a more personalized message goto www.xanga.com/wylin

http://i.xanga.com/wylin/tw.gif

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by wylin@Jan 21 2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 21 2003, 12:27 PM
once again, i edited your posts because you were making fun of others (and in this thread alone, that included koreans, the cantonese, and the vietnamese), not because you were advocating taiwanese independence. &nbsp;i happened to have edited DBS's post because he made fun of taiwanese people. &nbsp;i would be perfectly happy to argue the taiwan issue with you, but not when all you do is make fun of others. &nbsp;and notice how i did not edit this last post you just made despite the fact that you called me a "power tripping communist". &nbsp;i'm being generous here.

Nick (UK/China) voices the most commonly used argument for China's claim to Taiwan, the "historical claim" argument. However, this argument is tenuous, and breaks down when you consider the geopolitical history of both "countries". During the 20th century Taiwan was governed by China for a paltry 3 years. However, Japan governed Taiwan with relative civility for nearly 100 years before the Versailles Treaty awarded it to China in 1947. Don't the Japanese also have a historical claim over the island, through the spoils of war? Let's take this historical claim argument a step further. In the Han Dynasty, China controlled Korea and parts of Vietnam. Why should China stop with Taiwan and not also bully these countries back into the empire? China will not be taken seriously as a modern civilized nation as long as its childish schoolyard bullying continues.
Kevin C., USA

Several pieces of inaccurate information in what this person wrote.

Taiwan came under control of China during the mid to late 1600s. In 1662, Taiwan came under the control of Ming dynasty rebels, lead by Koxinga, that drove out the Dutch colonialists and established a base there for the purpose of attacking the newly established Qing dynasty. By 1683, these rebels were defeated and Taiwan came under control of the Qing dynasty. It was in 1895 that Japan gained control of Taiwan, and the island was returned to Chinese control in 1945 when Japan was defeated in WW2. So no, Japan did not control Taiwan for 100 years as that poster would like people to believe. In fact, it was 50 years - the same number of years that Japan controlled Korea, if I am correct.

Yes, historically China controlled parts of the Korean peninsula and parts of what is now Vietnam. The difference here is that China had relinquished claim on these parts of Asia hundreds of years ago. China had never relinquished claim on Taiwan.
go ))<============= radford. enuff of this BS and power trip for u. im outs. hope the gods of rogain shine upon you.

if u want a more personalized message goto www.xanga.com/wylin

http://i.xanga.com/wylin/tw.gif
ok... i fail to see how any of that is BS. those are historical facts.
and you were making irrelevant and inflammatory comments.

by the way, this is the third time you said you're quitting YW.

[achtungbaby]

Sorry to diverge off the topic again (SWK, you can delete this later if you want):

wylin, is this issue that worth it to you?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 21 2003, 04:42 PM
Sorry to diverge off the topic again (SWK, you can delete this later if you want):

wylin, is this issue that worth it to you?
sorry, just wanted to make sure i understand which issue you're referring to...

the taiwan issue?
or the issue with me having edited his posts?

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 21 2003, 01:53 PM
the taiwan issue?
or the issue with me having edited his posts?
The Taiwan issue, but come to think of it, both I guess.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 21 2003, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 21 2003, 01:53 PM
the taiwan issue?
or the issue with me having edited his posts?
The Taiwan issue, but come to think of it, both I guess.
well i think it's completely understandable for Will or any other taiwanese people to feel that this issue is very important. i only wish he would discuss this in a manner that wasn't inflammatory. and what does calling koreans "monkeys" (his first post on this thread) have anything to do with taiwanese independence?

[loserbutt]

It is very hard to trace ancestry since records are basically in disarray. However, I can attest that I have a family tomb over there, and that my brother looks like an aborigine so yes, I have aborigine blood although I can't prove it

[Napoleon Chynamite]

What does a Taiwanese aborigine look like in comparison to somebody who is perhaps of mainland/Chinese/Han origin? Just curious, perhaps it is more suitable to discuss in another thread or someplace else other than here...

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by FrozenPizza@Jan 21 2003, 05:26 PM
What does a Taiwanese aborigine look like in comparison to somebody who is perhaps of mainland/Chinese/Han origin? &nbsp;Just curious, perhaps it is more suitable to discuss in another thread or someplace else other than here...
don't really want to search for pics at the moment, but to the best of my knowledge, taiwanese aboriginals are genetically closer to pacific islanders than continental asians.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 21 2003, 02:16 PM
and what does calling koreans "monkeys" (his first post on this thread) have anything to do with taiwanese independence?
Yeah wylin, just because the lower half of a Korean resembles a gorilla...what does that have to do with this.

Getting back to the topic at hand:)

Aside from the philosophical stuff at hand, I haven't yet heard an argument presented as to why the PRC should be denied independence. I can understand why mainlanders are annoyed or even insulted that some Taiwanese folk are going to play pretend as to their heritage -- but is that enough of a reason for taking Taiwan by force?

Reunification in Korea, for example, something generally desired by both the North and South: a number of issues are preventing this, but it's still something they've been working on for years. Does Taiwan want the same, and they're just disagreeing over the devil in the details, or do they want to just get the hell away?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 21 2003, 05:34 PM
Reunification in Korea, for example, something generally desired by both the North and South: a number of issues are preventing this, but it's still something they've been working on for years. Does Taiwan want the same, and they're just disagreeing over the devil in the details, or do they want to just get the hell away?
to the best of my knowledge, taiwanese people definitely do not want to be ruled by the regime in beijing, instead, they pretty much want the status quo - they want things to stay the way it currently is right now.

my opinion is that while i don't want to see an armed conflict, i think reunification is inevitable down the road (a loooong time away), because of closer economic ties and political reforms that are taking place in china. even lee kuan yew thinks so.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by tazadar@Jan 21 2003, 02:44 PM
Being ethnical different shouldn't be decisive factor for secession.
I thought it was politics, not ethnicity, that was the main reason though.

[achtungbaby]

Okay, so parallel this with the integration of Hong Kong and mainland China: how are things in Hong Kong? Are they that different after the British got the hell out?

[loserbutt]

one of the arguments that chinese people use in pushing for reunification is that the people in taiwan are basically chinese and so ought to be part of china

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by tazadar@Jan 21 2003, 03:00 PM
I think you meant "why ROC should be denied independence." Is that right? I dunno. In the American Revolution where colonal states fought the British for independence, in the US Civil War where the southern states fought to secede from the USA, so it's internal forces as opposed to external forces grab for terroritory. Is that not a valid a reason for the PRC to oppose?
Whoops. I guess I meant ROC. You damn gabillion of Chinese.

I'm not sure if I entirely understood your question. In reality, secession has already happened. Whether the mainland wants to admit this or not, isn't Taiwan recognized internationally as a sovereign state? Attacking them now, I think, or using some sort of gunboat diplomacy at this point, for their "unjustified" reasons seems a bit excessive.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by loserbutt@Jan 21 2003, 03:06 PM
one of the arguments that chinese people use in pushing for reunification is that the people in taiwan are basically chinese and so ought to be part of china
And that's pretty much what it comes down to, no?

[TyroneK(prettypretty)]

Originally posted by VBKao@Jan 21 2003, 02:11 AM
Dude. This is the most civil this thread is going to be. No one's going to change anyone else's mind and we've maxed out the points we've intended to make. Can you lock it?
First of all, with the historical claim, I don't contest that China has had significant power over Taiwan throughout a lot of its history. In recent times like this past century though, the government in control of the mainland has not exercised any real control over the island since the 1890's, allowing it to establish its own different political identity. Even the KMT didn't really hold much power over the mainland until after 1949. If it wasn't for the Nationalist Government's shortsighted conceit of taking back the mainland and America's support of that diplomatic fiction, we probably wouldn't have to have this debate. We'd just have two independent nations, one with a victorious communist government and one taken over by fleeing (and rather nomadic) KMT thugs who proceeded to persecute the extant citizenry of Taiwan for decades. If you take our established and internationally validated ideas of what makes a legitimate government that has a real hold over a territory, the mainland has not established a presence for the people and by the people in quite a while.

Moreover, the argument that a claim arising from the Imperial period undercuts real independence is sort of specious, because you don't see anybody recognizing the KMT's longstanding claim over Mongolia now, do you? It declared independence, but the KMT still keeps putting out maps that don't show Mongolia as being an actual nation.

Secondly, I don't think the ethnic argument is really that relevant for answering whether Taiwan is a de facto legitimate nation or not. It has all the behaviors and democratically legitimate civil institutions of any other recognized nation state. It has formed its own government and until the late 1960's had full diplomatic relations with most of the world. It still exercises diplomatic relations with a number of other countries throughout the world. Even now, it still has its own customs office and exercises its own control over and within its borders. It is right now an independent nation and not a renegade province. It's the actions of the present and recent history that determine statehood, not the ethnic constitution of its members or prior historical behavior from years substantially in the past. The historical backup for any legitimacy argument is more ornamentation than anything else.

In the end, I wonder if we're all displaying too much faith in the straw man we call International Law. Basically, it's the stronger nation that gets its views validated. It has nothing to do with right or wrong and everything to do with geopolitical clout. Just because the world wants to get along with China and recognizes its claim to Taiwan does not mean that it's a correct statement of law and principle.

By the way, why isn't anyone listening to me regarding this thread? We're going to spout the same shit over and over again. People are going to get insulted and throw fits. In the end, no one changes their mind. Just shut down the damn thread. SWK and Taz aren't going to convince me that Taiwan shouldn't be independent and I'm not going to be able to convince them that China and Taiwan are two legitimately distinct nations that have an equal right to self-determination. What started out as an argument meant to talk about the supposed Taiwanese ethnic identity has devolved into the same old independence debate we always have. I hate to repeat myself, but close down this damn thread. The only thing that we're going to get by continuing this argument is hurt feelings and personal resentment.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 21 2003, 05:52 PM
Okay, so parallel this with the integration of Hong Kong and mainland China: how are things in Hong Kong? Are they that different after the British got the hell out?
people's everyday lives have not changed. there was widespread paranoia right before the hand-over, but surprisingly, what's changed is the economy and not people's everyday lives. the integration with mainland china has meant a drain of money out of HK and into mainland china. but admittedly, HK is about to face the real test of whether or not it has autonomy with this newly proposed anti-subversion law. we're all keeping our eyes opened and watching. the CCP has promised even wider autonomy for taiwan than it gave to HK and macau (tiny city right next to HK that used to be a portuguese colony). the most important thing for people in HK is still the freedom to make money, and this is the same for taiwanese people as far as i know.

here is a good article: The Hong Kong experiment: a peek into the laboratory (http://www.atimes.com/china/BA28Ad02.html)

[TyroneK(prettypretty)]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 21 2003, 06:13 PM
the most important thing for people in HK is still the freedom to make money, and this is the same for taiwanese people as far as i know.

here is a good article: The Hong Kong experiment: a peek into the laboratory (http://www.atimes.com/china/BA28Ad02.html)
SWK, that's not the feelings of the Taiwanese people I know. Once you emerge from decades of repressive dictatorship to enjoy some kind of democracy, you don't want to go back that quickly.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by VBKao@Jan 21 2003, 03:13 PM
By the way, why isn't anyone listening to me regarding this thread? We're going to spout the same shit over and over again. People are going to get insulted and throw fits. In the end, no one changes their mind. Just shut down the damn thread. SWK and Taz aren't going to convince me that Taiwan shouldn't be independent and I'm not going to be able to convince them that China and Taiwan are two legitimately distinct nations that have an equal right to self-determination. What started out as an argument meant to talk about the supposed Taiwanese ethnic identity has devolved into the same old independence debate we always have. I hate to repeat myself, but close down this damn thread. The only thing that we're going to get by continuing this argument is hurt feelings and personal resentment.
Point taken, and if the purpose of the thread were to simply change resolved minds, than I think it would be closed, but there are still others (like myself) who wouldn't mind continuing a non-combative discussion. Granted, I'm probably going to be treated with kid-gloves in this because 1) I'm Korean and could otherwise be indifferent and 2) because I'm the webmaster and will eat the liver of anyone mean to me, but I think it's constructive to continue to discuss:)

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by VBKao@Jan 21 2003, 03:19 PM
SWK, that's not the feelings of the Taiwanese people I know. Once you emerge from decades of repressive dictatorship to enjoy some kind of democracy, you don't want to go back that quickly.
I was about to comment on this. Integration in HK sounds pretty encouraging from a monetary perspective, but what about (gasp) human rights?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by VBKao@Jan 21 2003, 06:13 PM
The only thing that we're going to get by continuing this argument is hurt feelings and personal resentment.
hmm?
there's really no need to feel any personal resentment or feel hurt. i mean, i don't think anybody around here are out to attack anybody. to me at least, it's still just ideology and politics we've been talking about. i mean, i don't believe i've been out of line in anything i've been saying. and if i have been, then please let me know.

with that being said, i'm going to go over your last post...

[Adaon]

Originally posted by VBKao@Jan 21 2003, 03:13 PM
By the way, why isn't anyone listening to me regarding this thread? We're going to spout the same shit over and over again. People are going to get insulted and throw fits. In the end, no one changes their mind. Just shut down the damn thread. SWK and Taz aren't going to convince me that Taiwan shouldn't be independent and I'm not going to be able to convince them that China and Taiwan are two legitimately distinct nations that have an equal right to self-determination. What started out as an argument meant to talk about the supposed Taiwanese ethnic identity has devolved into the same old independence debate we always have. I hate to repeat myself, but close down this damn thread. The only thing that we're going to get by continuing this argument is hurt feelings and personal resentment.
VB, I can feel you on this. I mean I started the thread, and I didn't think it'd jump to such proportions. But this thread is turning out totally differently than the rant I had about "ethnically" chinese people claiming to be native taiwanese......but I'm find this thread informational.....making me quite a bit interested in Asian History.....

[AltimaGTR]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 21 2003, 03:23 PM
but what about (gasp) human rights?
Speaking of human rights, China has not formally apologized for past acts nor changed its policy on human rights. That's not to say that Taiwan has never had its share of human rights abuse, but China definitely overshadows it. What was really touching was this book I read about the Chinese takeover of Tibet, and the atrocities committed.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 21 2003, 06:23 PM
I was about to comment on this. &nbsp;Integration in HK sounds pretty encouraging from a monetary perspective, but what about (gasp) human rights?
well, that's just it. people in HK have so far not been denied the rights they enjoyed before the handover back to mainland. i think it's reasonable to believe that taiwan would be accorded the same rights. there's also the fact that china is undergoing gradual political reform. and anybody around here who has been to china can tell you that the country is no longer some repressive place reminiscent of the cultural revolution era of mainland china. the cities are really not so different from cities around the world except for differing degrees of modernity. i mean, heck, doc's parents just up and permanently moved BACK to shanghai.

[Adaon]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 21 2003, 03:23 PM
I was about to comment on this. Integration in HK sounds pretty encouraging from a monetary perspective, but what about (gasp) human rights?
wouldn't a live testimony/account sound pretty good right aobut now, like from Iris or any other HK YW-ers?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by VBKao@Jan 21 2003, 06:13 PMJan 21 2003, 06:13 PM
First of all, with the historical claim, I don't contest that China has had significant power over Taiwan throughout a lot of its history. In recent times like this past century though, the government in control of the mainland has not exercised any real control over the island since the 1890's, allowing it to establish its own different political identity. Even the KMT didn't really hold much power over the mainland until after 1949. If it wasn't for the Nationalist Government's shortsighted conceit of taking back the mainland and America's support of that diplomatic fiction, we probably wouldn't have to have this debate. We'd just have two independent nations, one with a victorious communist government and one taken over by fleeing (and rather nomadic) KMT thugs who proceeded to persecute the extant citizenry of Taiwan for decades. If you take our established and internationally validated ideas of what makes a legitimate government that has a real hold over a territory, the mainland has not established a presence for the people and by the people in quite a while.

I agree to a certain degree. It is true that mainland China has not exerted direct influence on Taiwan since 1895 and only briefly between 1945 and 1949. However, mainland China has never relinquished a claim on Taiwan, and throughout the past century, it has always been external forces that has kept China from regaining Taiwan. Basically, the island was taken away forcibly from control of mainland China, and it is being kept out of mainland Chinese control by external forces. So I think mainland China is perfectly justified in holding on to a claim on the island.

Originally posted by VBKao@Jan 21 2003, 06:13 PMJan 21 2003, 06:13 PM
Moreover, the argument that a claim arising from the Imperial period undercuts real independence is sort of specious, because you don't see anybody recognizing the KMT's longstanding claim over Mongolia now, do you? It declared independence, but the KMT still keeps putting out maps that don't show Mongolia as being an actual nation.

The reason that nobody recognises the KMT's longstanding claim over Mongolia (the constitution has since been changed by the way - it no longer claims Mongolia) is because almost the entire international community does not recognise Taiwan as a sovereign nation, so technically speaking, nobody can really formally recognise any land claims it makes.

Originally posted by VBKao@Jan 21 2003, 06:13 PMJan 21 2003, 06:13 PM
Secondly, I don't think the ethnic argument is really that relevant for answering whether Taiwan is a de facto legitimate nation or not. It has all the behaviors and democratically legitimate civil institutions of any other recognized nation state. It has formed its own government and until the late 1960's had full diplomatic relations with most of the world. It still exercises diplomatic relations with a number of other countries throughout the world. Even now, it still has its own customs office and exercises its own control over and within its borders. It is right now an independent nation and not a renegade province. It's the actions of the present and recent history that determine statehood, not the ethnic constitution of its members or prior historical behavior from years substantially in the past. The historical backup for any legitimacy argument is more ornamentation than anything else.

Agreed. Ethnicity is definitely not a justifiable reason for Taiwan to be under mainland Chinese control. Under the same argument, China could probably make a convincing argument for claiming Singapore... as well as parts of the bay area... hahhah! And also agreed that Taiwan is an independent nation for all practical purposes.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Adaon@Jan 21 2003, 06:31 PM
wouldn't a live testimony/account sound pretty good right aobut now, like from Iris or any other HK YW-ers?
yeah i think i just did that briefly in one of the above posts?

[AltimaGTR]

Nicely summed up, SWK! I have nothing else to say on the topic :)

[TyroneK(prettypretty)]

I didn't really word my Mongolia example correctly. But I do see your point about China's claim. I still don't think that a historical claim really mandates the revokation of independence that has been in practical effect for so long, especially when that independence maintains a nation state that follows all the vaunted, idealized conventions of how we want countries to govern.

[kasia]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 21 2003, 12:27 PM
Nick (UK/China) voices the most commonly used argument for China's claim to Taiwan, the "historical claim" argument. However, this argument is tenuous, and breaks down when you consider the geopolitical history of both "countries". During the 20th century Taiwan was governed by China for a paltry 3 years. However, Japan governed Taiwan with relative civility for nearly 100 years before the Versailles Treaty awarded it to China in 1947. Don't the Japanese also have a historical claim over the island, through the spoils of war? Let's take this historical claim argument a step further. In the Han Dynasty, China controlled Korea and parts of Vietnam. Why should China stop with Taiwan and not also bully these countries back into the empire? China will not be taken seriously as a modern civilized nation as long as its childish schoolyard bullying continues.
Kevin C., USA

Several pieces of inaccurate information in what this person wrote.

Taiwan came under control of China during the mid to late 1600s. In 1662, Taiwan came under the control of Ming dynasty rebels, lead by Koxinga, that drove out the Dutch colonialists and established a base there for the purpose of attacking the newly established Qing dynasty. By 1683, these rebels were defeated and Taiwan came under control of the Qing dynasty. It was in 1895 that Japan gained control of Taiwan, and the island was returned to Chinese control in 1945 when Japan was defeated in WW2. So no, Japan did not control Taiwan for 100 years as that poster would like people to believe. In fact, it was 50 years - the same number of years that Japan controlled Korea, if I am correct.

Yes, historically China controlled parts of the Korean peninsula and parts of what is now Vietnam. The difference here is that China had relinquished claim on these parts of Asia hundreds of years ago. China had never relinquished claim on Taiwan.
sorry, i don't know much about this topic at all so i have some questions:

1) can someone give a full description of the events that took place in 1949?

2) why *wouldn't* japan have just as much a claim to taiwan if they ruled it for 50 years?

3) even if taiwan was taken away from china illegally, shouldn't we respect taiwan's wish to remain independent?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by VBKao@Jan 21 2003, 07:37 PM
I didn't really word my Mongolia example correctly. But I do see your point about China's claim. I still don't think that a historical claim really mandates the revokation of independence that has been in practical effect for so long, especially when that independence maintains a nation state that follows all the vaunted, idealized conventions of how we want countries to govern.
well perhaps. i feel more strongly about china being justified in holding on to a claim than that taiwan should reunify. bottom line is i still think taiwanese people should have the final say on this. that's why i think it's entirely stupid for the CCP to keep threatening invasion - that just makes taiwanese people want independence all the more.

but i don't know about the "idealised conventions" of how we want countries to govern. i mean now you're also talking about conventions as dictated by the same international community that does not technically recognise taiwan as an independent nation. and don't forget that taiwan was under martial law all the way up until the mid 80s. if anything, in my own personal opinion, a real representative government was only put into effect when the DPP took power from the KMT, and this has been a period of less than a decade.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by tazadar@Jan 21 2003, 11:11 PM
The remnants of the KMT forces and government fled to Taiwan in a defeat during the Chinese civil war from 1946 to 1949 under Mao Zedong and his Communist led People's Liberation Army.

After World War II and centuries unrest by the Western imperialism to carve up China, she was left a divided country into 3 (PRC, ROC, HK), war-torn, and in financial ruins. I don't know how to answer your third question. Right now, it's a compromise where both side are comfortable with.
Actually, I think most scholars consider, and I agree with them, that the civil war period in China lasted from the 1910s to 1949. The KMT never had a strong hold on mainland China. Even militarily it was always very decentralised up until probably the mid 1940s. The real power lied in the hands of regional warlords all over the country, and they fought with each other. The period between 1911 and 1949 is usually known as the warlord period/civil war period. The Communists and the Nationalist were fighting for control, when the real power mostly lied in the hands of regional warlords that competed with each other, and to add to that, foreign powers were trying to carve the country into pieces.

The British colonizing of HK happened as a consequence of the Opium War, which took place in 1842. So HK was carved out way before WW2.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by kasia@Jan 21 2003, 09:55 PM
1) can someone give a full description of the events that took place in 1949?

2) why *wouldn't* japan have just as much a claim to taiwan if they ruled it for 50 years?

3) even if taiwan was taken away from china illegally, shouldn't we respect taiwan's wish to remain independent?
1) answered in the previous posts

2) japan gave up its claim on taiwan

3) what if during the american civil war, foreign powers came in and helped the confederacy maintain their independence from the union? should the union have relinquished control because the confederacy wished independence? what about Northern Ireland from the UK? Gilbraltar from Spain? Quebec from Canada? If the US went in and militarily helped these places gain independence, does that give them more claim on independence?

[TyroneK(prettypretty)]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 22 2003, 12:01 AM
but i don't know about the "idealised conventions" of how we want countries to govern. i mean now you're also talking about conventions as dictated by the same international community that does not technically recognise taiwan as an independent nation. and don't forget that taiwan was under martial law all the way up until the mid 80s. if anything, in my own personal opinion, a real representative government was only put into effect when the DPP took power from the KMT, and this has been a period of less than a decade.
But you're assuming that nations recognize Taiwan as a part of China due to philosophical reasons rather than just a desire to be more chummy with the mainland.

And even if the democratic government wasn't in place until the DPP took power doesn't mean that Taiwan's government isn't more of what the world and international law supposedly encourages and wants than the CCP, no?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by VBKao@Jan 22 2003, 12:52 AM
But you're assuming that nations recognize Taiwan as a part of China due to philosophical reasons rather than just a desire to be more chummy with the mainland.

And even if the democratic government wasn't in place until the DPP took power doesn't mean that Taiwan's government isn't more of what the world and international law supposedly encourages and wants than the CCP, no?
and on the flip side, all the emphasis about "democracy" and "freedom" are mostly coming from western european powers and asian powers that are allied to the US. that could just as well be considered that they want to be more chummy with the US.

very true about your second point. china definitely has a long way to go on political reforms.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by tazadar@Jan 22 2003, 01:10 AM
I meant the years 1946-1949 Communist vs. Nationalist. Only after WW2, did China seems to be at peace for the Chinese people to rebuild for *centuries* of Western imperialism and the WW. Sorry if I suggested the British took over HK around WW2.
hmm... wasn't really "centuries" of western imperialism. it really only started around the mid 1800s when the Qing court was in full decline.

[kasia]

thanks so much for answering my questions. learned a lot from your posts, esp. taz'.

in response to swk's hypotheticals: i'm not sure i understand the reasoning behind not allowing those states to gain independence.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by tazadar@Jan 22 2003, 01:20 AM
What?, Rad. Hello? 1661 Sino-Dutch War is one example of Western imperialism.
oh yeah... then there's also macau. 400 years of colonialism.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by kasia@Jan 22 2003, 01:20 AM
in response to swk's hypotheticals: i'm not sure i understand the reasoning behind not allowing those states to gain independence.
i guess that's more of a personal opinion on my part then. i just don't think individual regions should be allowed independence whenever a region wants it.

[kasia]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jan 21 2003, 10:25 PM
i guess that's more of a personal opinion on my part then. i just don't think individual regions should be allowed independence whenever a region wants it.
i'm sure there are arguments in favor of your postion - practical ones at least...i think they would be interesting to explore. but surely personal preference alone cannot offset taiwan's desire to remain independent or the moral arguments supporting that. of course, though, there's also the contractual agreement. what sort of role does that play?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by kasia@Jan 22 2003, 01:39 AM
i'm sure there are arguments in favor of your postion - practical ones at least...i think they would be interesting to explore. but surely personal preference alone cannot offset taiwan's desire to remain independent or the moral arguments supporting that. of course, though, there's also the contractual agreement. what sort of role does that play?
hmm... well there's the question of whether or not a region's people has the right to independently decide to break off from the rest of the nation it belongs to, or whether that should be decided by the nation as a whole.

but like i said before, i do personally think that the final decision should be up to the taiwanese people, which probably solves both the moral argument and the contractual agreement. it's just that at the same time, i feel that china is also justified to pursue reunification. and while most taiwanese people do not want reunification, a number of them do not want independence either. also, government propaganda goes both ways across the taiwan straits.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by tazadar@Jan 22 2003, 01:43 AM
Kasia,

Taiwan is a "renegade province" of China. It's not recognize by the UN and the rest of the world adheres to the one China policy.
well, but that completely ignores what the people in Taiwan itself wants.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by tazadar@Jan 22 2003, 01:52 AM
No, but I don't see Taiwanese revolting like the American colonialists with the British.
but still, the majority of people in taiwan do not want to be under CCP rule. at least not right now.

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by tazadar@Jan 21 2003, 10:43 PM
Kasia,

Taiwan is a "renegade province" of China. It's not recognize by the UN and the rest of the world adheres to the one China policy.
Perhaps. But they also have their own currency and trade status than the mainlaind or HK. These are signs of sovereignty that are difficult to ignore. It's why there is controversy surrounding them. True, they do not have official WTO recognition as a separate country but for all intents and purposes moving goods, many trade laws treat Taiwan as a separate entity from China.

edit: and passports

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by tazadar@Jan 21 2003, 10:43 PM
Taiwan is a "renegade province" of China. It's not recognize by the UN and the rest of the world adheres to the one China policy.
I thought the U.S. at least tacitly recognized Taiwan's independence...?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 23 2003, 04:09 PM
I thought the U.S. at least tacitly recognized Taiwan's independence...?
it's all politics. for all practically purposes, everybody treats taiwan as an independent country. but officially only about 20 or 30 unknown third world countries recognise it as such.