Yellowface in Hollywood for hapa

[kimpossible]

David Carradine, a white actor, was cast as a half-Chinese character on Kung Fu. We've had related topics on hapa actors playing white characters. We know Hollywood is not afraid of the stereotyped Asian females with non-Asian males couples, and there have been relatively recent movies where hapa should be but aren't (Blue Crush I believe).

Where are we? Why are white actors playing us? Why are hapa actors playing non-Asian characters or occasionally playing fully Asian characters? Does it make race mixing a little too real for people?

[kimpossible]

Another I just remembered was Jonathan Pryce in Miss Saigon. For those of you not familiar with the musical, there is a Eurasian character played most famously by a white actor.

[angel nympho]

Do you think it'd be better to choose an actor that didn't play the part as well over one that looked the part better? Not saying that's the case, here, just wondering.

Either way... I know quite a few half Asian people who look completely white. It's acting: playing a part of somebody that you're not.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Dec 19 2002, 07:11 AM
Another I just remembered was Jonathan Pryce in Miss Saigon. For those of you not familiar with the musical, there is a Eurasian character played most famously by a white actor.
And, if I'm not mistaken, the original character wasn't even supposed to be Eurasian.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Dec 19 2002, 01:08 PM
Do you think it'd be better to choose an actor that didn't play the part as well over one that looked the part better? Not saying that's the case, here, just wondering.

Either way... I know quite a few half Asian people who look completely white. It's acting: playing a part of somebody that you're not.
i think the point is that the producers wanted specifically a white person to play those parts, when instead they should probably have gotten an actor/actress that look the part as well as is good in acting.

[Shuriken]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Dec 19 2002, 06:23 PM
And, if I'm not mistaken, the original character wasn't even supposed to be Eurasian.
Miss Saigon's original London libretto made no reference to the character, the Engineer, being Eurasian. According to the logic of the plot, the character would have been 100% Vietnamese. It's widely believed among Asian American actors that the character of the Engineer was merely labeled "Eurasian" for one purpose and for one purpose only: to accommodate a white actor in a rare full-blooded Asian lead role on Broadway. When Miss Saigon finally appeared on Broadway, its libretto was revised for the new production, and references to the Engineer being Eurasian were inserted into the lyrics. This is one of the ways in which the entertainment industry relegates Asian American actors beneath a racial glass ceiling.

[Shuriken]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Dec 19 2002, 06:08 PM
Either way... I know quite a few half Asian people who look completely white. It's acting: playing a part of somebody that you're not.
And when was the last time that you saw an actor who was clearly, obviously Asian playing a lead white role?

The problem with yellowface is that it has historically been a one-way street: whites can play Asian leads, but recognizable Asians (i.e., the non-Keanus) can't play white leads. When Hollywood starts putting Lucy Liu in "whiteface" make-up to make her look completely Caucasian, I'll re-examine my attitude about yellowface. Until then, the assertion that acting in the entertainment industry is color-blind is totally bogus...

[Shuriken]

A Certain Slant: A Brief History of Hollywood Yellowface (http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/18/18_yellow.html)

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by Shuriken@Dec 19 2002, 11:09 PM
And when was the last time that you saw an actor who was clearly, obviously Asian playing a lead white role?


Go watch any live shows of broadway musicals in Korea or Japan


Miss Saigon with a bunch of Japanese people playing Blacks, Whites, and Viets.

Or guys and dolls in a NYC that is all Korean.



And, also many times, hapas are played by full blooded asians too.

On Star Trek DS9 for instance, Obriens kid was an asian girl.
Also on voyager, one episode, a alternate future where Kim marrys the daugther of Paris and Kess, and their child is an Asian kid.

Miss saigon I saw in NYC the whore's kid was an asian kid.

The only problem is that there are few hapa actors who look like hapas. They either look really asian like Russel Wong or really white like Rob Schnieder.

Whether this is a function of unfair casting procedures or of lack of qualified actors is not for me to answer.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Dec 19 2002, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by Shuriken@Dec 19 2002, 11:09 PM
And when was the last time that you saw an actor who was clearly, obviously Asian playing a lead white role?  


Go watch any live shows of broadway musicals in Korea or Japan


Miss Saigon with a bunch of Japanese people playing Blacks, Whites, and Viets.

Or guys and dolls in a NYC that is all Korean.
well we are talking about the US here. where we live.

[BeTheReds]

True, but race is important to the character sometimes.

I have not seen white people don yellow face and play an asian role in any recent movie. The only one i can think of is the Pest, where a hispanic, Jon Leguzamo dons yellow face to blend in with some chinese people.

In plays the only thing i have seen are white extras playing VC soldiers in Miss Saigon and obviously hiding their faces so you couldnt tell they were white by wearing hats that cover their eyes and noses.

And Lucy Liu did play Catherine Zeta Jones on an episode of saturday night live in a Celebrity Jeopardy skit.

[Craig]

A third justification for yellowface was that white actors simply made better "Orientals" than Asian actors did. This was probably true, since the white actors were often actively trying to play "Orientals," trying to play the stereotypes, while the Asian actors were perhaps trying to play humans.
Just gotta love that quote :lol:

[Hiroshi2]

Well it used to be that all asian characters were portrayed by whites, including the movie for the classic novel, The Good Earth.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Dec 19 2002, 10:59 PM
True, but race is important to the character sometimes.

I have not seen white people don yellow face and play an asian role in any recent movie. The only one i can think of is the Pest, where a hispanic, Jon Leguzamo dons yellow face to blend in with some chinese people.

In plays the only thing i have seen are white extras playing VC soldiers in Miss Saigon and obviously hiding their faces so you couldnt tell they were white by wearing hats that cover their eyes and noses.

And Lucy Liu did play Catherine Zeta Jones on an episode of saturday night live in a Celebrity Jeopardy skit.
yeah i think it's been getting alot better for asian people in recent years. at least in movies. don't know anything about theater though.

[Shuriken]

Go watch any live shows of broadway musicals in Korea or Japan

Why is it than when someone tries to talk about how Asian American actors do not have equal opportunities in the U.S. entertainment industry, someone else always pipes up about how there are jobs aplenty for Asian actors in Asian countries? How does that improve opportunities for Asian American actors here in the States? This is a bogus argument, and I'm really tired of hearing it. To me, it's just a more veiled way of saying, "Go back to where you came from."

When a white guy complains about affirmative action, I don't here anyone say, "Well, there are plenty of jobs for white folks in Europe. Quit complaining!" (Indeed, if you're a white actor and can speak an Asian language, chances are that you can get a job on Japanese or South Korean TV better than an Asian actor can get a TV job in the U.S.)

And Lucy Liu did play Catherine Zeta Jones on an episode of saturday night live in a Celebrity Jeopardy skit.

Eugene is one of our resident contrarians. If the point of his posts is that the situation for Asian American actors has gotten better since the Miss Saigon controversy, I would agree with him. Some recent breakthroughs that the community can point to are:

•THE MYSTERY FILES OF SHELBY WOO: When this Nickelodeon TV series was conceived, it was originally titled "The Mystery Files of Shelby Wink," with a white title character. But after seeing Irene Ng's audition, producer Alan Goodman cast her in the part and changed the show's title.

•ALLY McBEAL: Producer David E. Kelley open-mindedly agreed to have Lucy Liu read for the part of Nelle Porter, which eventually went to Portia DeRossi. However, Kelley was sufficiently impressed by Liu's audition to write the character of Ling Woo especially for her. Which led directly to...

•CHARLIE'S ANGELS and BALLISTIC: I understand that the co-starring roles that eventually went to Lucy Liu were not originally conceived as Asian.

•LILO AND STITCH: I'm likewise told that when Disney first started developing this project, it was to be set in the Midwest, not Hawaii.

However, the insinuation that the history of yellowface is no longer relevant because Lucy Liu once played Catherine Zeta-Jones on Saturday Night Live is egregiously unpersuasive to say the least. The fact that it took the comedy show almost 25 years to get its first Asian host (Jackie Chan) and has had only three to date (counting the Rock) in its long run — while Asian American public figures like Lance Ito and Michelle Kwan were played by white SNL cast members — speaks volumes. Although the movies have edged away from yellowface (probably more for reasons of visual verisimilitude than anything else), David Carradine played Kwai Chang Caine as late as 1998 in Kung Fu: The Legend Continues, while Alex Borstein made a name for herself as Ms. Swan (formerly Ms. Kwan) on Mad TV. The playing field is not level yet — Asian American actors still do not have the same opportunities to play starring roles in the U.S. entertainment industry that white actors have. And I'd like to see that fact acknowledged before the contrarians start splitting hairs and telling us all about the wonderful opportunities for Asian actors in Asian countries.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Dec 19 2002, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Dec 19 2002, 01:08 PM
Do you think it'd be better to choose an actor that didn't play the part as well over one that looked the part better? Not saying that's the case, here, just wondering.

Either way... I know quite a few half Asian people who look completely white.  It's acting: playing a part of somebody that you're not.
i think the point is that the producers wanted specifically a white person to play those parts, when instead they should probably have gotten an actor/actress that look the part as well as is good in acting.
How are you so sure they WANTED to cast a white person in that role? If that was so, they probably wouldn't have made the character non-white....

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by Shuriken@Dec 19 2002, 11:09 PM
And when was the last time that you saw an actor who was clearly, obviously Asian playing a lead white role?

The problem with yellowface is that it has historically been a one-way street: whites can play Asian leads, but recognizable Asians (i.e., the non-Keanus) can't play white leads. When Hollywood starts putting Lucy Liu in "whiteface" make-up to make her look completely Caucasian, I'll re-examine my attitude about yellowface. Until then, the assertion that acting in the entertainment industry is color-blind is totally bogus...
No. The problem is that there just aren't enough Asian actors out there. And despite the fact that there are plenty of ASPIRING Asian actors, there just isn't enough to fill EVERY casting audition with enough that are MORE TALENTED than all the rest.

And I agree that Hollywood is not colorblind. When it comes to commercials, at least, they choose people based more on what they look like than how they act.. but I know the same isn't true for roles that actually REQUIRE acting.

[Shuriken]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Dec 20 2002, 09:56 PM
No. The problem is that there just aren't enough Asian actors out there.
Sarah, on what do you base this assertion? Do you have concrete data that confirms the quantifiable absence of talented Asian American actors? I would agree that there are only a few Asian American actors who can match the talent of, say, a Jonathan Pryce, but I know they're out there. And from my experiences in the industry (which are admittedly limited) and as a member of MANAA, I would say that the chief reason why Asian American actors aren't cast in starring roles is because the producers don't conceived of these roles as Asian and therefore automatically — if unconsciously — lock APA actors out of the auditions.

And when was the last time you went to see a play performed by the East West Players? Just a couple of weeks ago, I went to see their production of Shakespeare's The Tempest, and I was totally blown away by the mesmerizing talent on the stage.

As director Sidney Lumet said to the New York City Commission on Human Rights during their hearings in the wake of the Miss Saigon controversy, if a producer claims that he can't find a talented Asian American actor, it's just because he's not looking hard enough.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by Shuriken@Dec 20 2002, 10:18 PM
Sarah, on what do you base this assertion?  Do you have concrete data that confirms the quantifiable absence of talented Asian American actors?  I would agree that there are only a few Asian American actors who can match the talent of, say, a Jonathan Pryce, but I know they're out there.  And from my experiences in the industry (which are admittedly limited) and as a member of MANAA, I would say that the chief reason why Asian American actors aren't cast in starring roles is because the producers don't conceived of these roles as Asian and therefore automatically — if unconsciously — lock APA actors out of the auditions.  

And when was the last time you went to see a play performed by the East West Players?  Just a couple of weeks ago, I went to see their production of Shakespeare's The Tempest, and I was totally blown away by the mesmerizing talent on the stage.  

As director Sidney Lumet said to the New York City Commission on Human Rights during their hearings in the wake of the Miss Saigon controversy, if a producer claims that he can't find a talented Asian American actor, it's just because he's not looking hard enough.
Have you ever been to auditions around the LA area? There's a disparaging lack of Asian American talent. Sure there's a few here and there, but none of them seemed anything special. But then again, there's so many frickin aspiring actors out here that there doesn't seem to be any special white aspiring actors either. Or black ones for that matter. Anyway, back to the point I was making, if you go to auditions, there's just not a lot of Asian talent to choose from.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Dec 20 2002, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Dec 19 2002, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Dec 19 2002, 01:08 PM
Do you think it'd be better to choose an actor that didn't play the part as well over one that looked the part better? Not saying that's the case, here, just wondering.

Either way... I know quite a few half Asian people who look completely white. It's acting: playing a part of somebody that you're not.
i think the point is that the producers wanted specifically a white person to play those parts, when instead they should probably have gotten an actor/actress that look the part as well as is good in acting.
How are you so sure they WANTED to cast a white person in that role? If that was so, they probably wouldn't have made the character non-white....
er.... have you been reading all of shuriken's other posts...?

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Dec 20 2002, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Dec 20 2002, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Dec 19 2002, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Dec 19 2002, 01:08 PM
Do you think it'd be better to choose an actor that didn't play the part as well over one that looked the part better? Not saying that's the case, here, just wondering.

Either way... I know quite a few half Asian people who look completely white. It's acting: playing a part of somebody that you're not.
i think the point is that the producers wanted specifically a white person to play those parts, when instead they should probably have gotten an actor/actress that look the part as well as is good in acting.
How are you so sure they WANTED to cast a white person in that role? If that was so, they probably wouldn't have made the character non-white....
er.... have you been reading all of shuriken's other posts...?
Yes, he was talking about Miss Saigon or something. Nowhere did I get the impression that Hollywood WANTS to cast white actors in Asian/Eurasian parts... I understand that people BELIEVE that, but in the same right, I'm allowed to believe that it isn't true, right?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Dec 20 2002, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Dec 20 2002, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Dec 20 2002, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Dec 19 2002, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Dec 19 2002, 01:08 PM
Do you think it'd be better to choose an actor that didn't play the part as well over one that looked the part better? Not saying that's the case, here, just wondering.

Either way... I know quite a few half Asian people who look completely white. It's acting: playing a part of somebody that you're not.
i think the point is that the producers wanted specifically a white person to play those parts, when instead they should probably have gotten an actor/actress that look the part as well as is good in acting.
How are you so sure they WANTED to cast a white person in that role? If that was so, they probably wouldn't have made the character non-white....
er.... have you been reading all of shuriken's other posts...?
Yes, he was talking about Miss Saigon or something. Nowhere did I get the impression that Hollywood WANTS to cast white actors in Asian/Eurasian parts... I understand that people BELIEVE that, but in the same right, I'm allowed to believe that it isn't true, right?
sure..... to each his/her own.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by Shuriken@Dec 20 2002, 03:52 PM
Why is it than when someone tries to talk about how Asian American actors do not have equal opportunities in the U.S. entertainment industry, someone else always pipes up about how there are jobs aplenty for Asian actors in Asian countries? How does that improve opportunities for Asian American actors here in the States? This is a bogus argument, and I'm really tired of hearing it. To me, it's just a more veiled way of saying, "Go back to where you came from."

...

However, the insinuation that the history of yellowface is no longer relevant because Lucy Liu once played Catherine Zeta-Jones on Saturday Night Live is egregiously unpersuasive to say the least. The fact that it took the comedy show almost 25 years to get its first Asian host (Jackie Chan) and has had only three to date (counting the Rock) in its long run — while Asian American public figures like Lance Ito and Michelle Kwan were played by white SNL cast members — speaks volumes. Although the movies have edged away from yellowface (probably more for reasons of visual verisimilitude than anything else), David Carradine played Kwai Chang Caine as late as 1998 in Kung Fu: The Legend Continues, while Alex Borstein made a name for herself as Ms. Swan (formerly Ms. Kwan) on Mad TV. The playing field is not level yet — Asian American actors still do not have the same opportunities to play starring roles in the U.S. entertainment industry that white actors have. And I'd like to see that fact acknowledged before the contrarians start splitting hairs and telling us all about the wonderful opportunities for Asian actors in Asian countries.
I think you're being more than a little patronizing here. BTR's point was not "There's plenty of jobs for Asians in Asia, so go back home if things are so tough in the US"; his point was to question why we're only talking about White actors in 'yellowface' when there are plenty of Asian actors in 'whiteface'. I think you're being patronizing to AngelNympho too, and I think it's disrespectful.

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Dec 20 2002, 09:18 PM

I think you're being more than a little patronizing here. BTR's point was not "There's plenty of jobs for Asians in Asia, so go back home if things are so tough in the US"; his point was to question why we're only talking about White actors in 'yellowface' when there are plenty of Asian actors in 'whiteface'. I think you're being patronizing to AngelNympho too, and I think it's disrespectful.
Yes let's run back home when things look tuff, rather than deal with the issue. Yes go back to Asia. I'm no Asian Activists but I ain't no coward either that runs away when things get thick. My folks didn't raise no p00say who can't put up a fight.

Telling one to go back to Asia rather than face the issues, when they choose to, is patronizing also, if that's what whomever meant.

If one chooses to take up the issue to paveway for others rather than to go back to Asia to pursue his chosen career, is strictly their own choice and no one else's.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Dec 21 2002, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Dec 20 2002, 09:18 PM

I think you're being more than a little patronizing here. BTR's point was not "There's plenty of jobs for Asians in Asia, so go back home if things are so tough in the US"; his point was to question why we're only talking about White actors in 'yellowface' when there are plenty of Asian actors in 'whiteface'. I think you're being patronizing to AngelNympho too, and I think it's disrespectful.
Yes let's run back home when things look tuff, rather than deal with the issue. Yes go back to Asia. I'm no Asian Activists but I ain't no coward either that runs away when things get thick. My folks didn't raise no p00say who can't put up a fight.

Telling one to go back to Asia rather than face the issues, when they choose to, is patronizing also, if that's what whomever meant.

If one chooses to take up the issue to paveway for others rather than to go back to Asia to pursue hios chosen career, is strictly their own choice and no one else's.
I agree with YuheiCarreau on this one. I don't think BTR was trying to say to go back to Asia. He was just saying that we're complaining about something that goes on in other nations all the time without complaint. We're complaining that there are too many white actors playing our parts, but back in Asian countries, the roles are reversed. He wasn't trying to say to run away to Asia. He was just saying to take a look at what goes on elsewhere.

[deez nuts]

I stand corrected if that's what he meant. Didn't read the whole thread...just the last few posts.

[MellowDrama]

Yellowface = the new (acceptable) blackface.

<_<

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Dec 21 2002, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Dec 21 2002, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Dec 20 2002, 09:18 PM

I think you're being more than a little patronizing here. BTR's point was not "There's plenty of jobs for Asians in Asia, so go back home if things are so tough in the US"; his point was to question why we're only talking about White actors in 'yellowface' when there are plenty of Asian actors in 'whiteface'. I think you're being patronizing to AngelNympho too, and I think it's disrespectful.
Yes let's run back home when things look tuff, rather than deal with the issue. Yes go back to Asia. I'm no Asian Activists but I ain't no coward either that runs away when things get thick. My folks didn't raise no p00say who can't put up a fight.

Telling one to go back to Asia rather than face the issues, when they choose to, is patronizing also, if that's what whomever meant.

If one chooses to take up the issue to paveway for others rather than to go back to Asia to pursue hios chosen career, is strictly their own choice and no one else's.
I agree with YuheiCarreau on this one. I don't think BTR was trying to say to go back to Asia. He was just saying that we're complaining about something that goes on in other nations all the time without complaint. We're complaining that there are too many white actors playing our parts, but back in Asian countries, the roles are reversed. He wasn't trying to say to run away to Asia. He was just saying to take a look at what goes on elsewhere.
the fact that bad shit goes on in other countries doesn't mean that we shouldn't complain about the bad shit that goes on in this country. progress in this country is made because people complain about shit and because we're even encouraged to do so. it's called speaking our minds.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Dec 21 2002, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Dec 21 2002, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Dec 21 2002, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Dec 20 2002, 09:18 PM

I think you're being more than a little patronizing here. BTR's point was not "There's plenty of jobs for Asians in Asia, so go back home if things are so tough in the US"; his point was to question why we're only talking about White actors in 'yellowface' when there are plenty of Asian actors in 'whiteface'. I think you're being patronizing to AngelNympho too, and I think it's disrespectful.
Yes let's run back home when things look tuff, rather than deal with the issue. Yes go back to Asia. I'm no Asian Activists but I ain't no coward either that runs away when things get thick. My folks didn't raise no p00say who can't put up a fight.

Telling one to go back to Asia rather than face the issues, when they choose to, is patronizing also, if that's what whomever meant.

If one chooses to take up the issue to paveway for others rather than to go back to Asia to pursue hios chosen career, is strictly their own choice and no one else's.
I agree with YuheiCarreau on this one. I don't think BTR was trying to say to go back to Asia. He was just saying that we're complaining about something that goes on in other nations all the time without complaint. We're complaining that there are too many white actors playing our parts, but back in Asian countries, the roles are reversed. He wasn't trying to say to run away to Asia. He was just saying to take a look at what goes on elsewhere.
the fact that bad shit goes on in other countries doesn't mean that we shouldn't complain about the bad shit that goes on in this country. progress in this country is made because people complain about shit and because we're even encouraged to do so. it's called speaking our minds.
I agree with you. I'm just saying that if the thought comforts you that the roles are reversed in other nations, then think about it before you freak out. If the thought doesn't comfort you, then by all means, complain your ass off.

And, not saying that anybody on this site does this.... but there's a big difference between speaking your mind and *whining*

[Shuriken]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Dec 21 2002, 02:18 AM
his point was to question why we're only talking about White actors in 'yellowface' when there are plenty of Asian actors in 'whiteface'.
I get the idea that people on this thread are comparing apples to oranges.

I'm talking about what goes on in the U.S. entertainment industry, not overseas. I'm sure that worse things happen in the entertainment industies overseas, but that doesn't make the bad things that happen here acceptable. It's like saying that no one should complain about the Japanese American internment in the U.S. because the Nazi Holocaust in Europe was worse. I agree that the Nazi Halocaust was worse in terms of human life, but the fact remains that the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights should have prevented the internment from happening in this country the first place. Similarly, America's ideals of equal opportunity should not be held hostage to the practices of other countries. One shouldn't say, "This form of discrimination in this country is acceptable because worse forms of discrimination happen in other countries." The law doesn't work that way. So, as far as I'm concerned, the casting practices in other countries are irrelevant to this discussion.

In the U.S., white actors have traditionally played lead Asian roles. Yes, you can find a few exceptions, over the decades, of Asian actors playing lead Asian roles: Sessue Hayakawa, Anna May Wong, James Shigeta, etc. But for the most part, a lead Asian role in Hollywood or on Broadway was played by a 100% Caucasian actor wearing make-up to look Asian (Boris Karloff as Fu Manchu, Joseph Wiseman as Dr. No, ad infinitum). An alternate strategy has been to have 100% Caucasian actors with Asian-like appearances play these roles (David Carradine in Kung Fu being the best known).

I have never heard of a 100% Asian actor putting on "whiteface" make-up to play a lead Caucasian role in the U.S. entertainment industry. In this country, the practice does not work both ways.

And with the sole exception of Lucy Liu playing Catherine Zeta-Jones in the lone aforementioned SNL sketch, I cannot mention another time that a recognizably Asian actor has ever played a white character in the mainstream U.S. media. One TV comedy sketch is hardly an indicator that the playing field is completely level.

I do not regard hapa actors playing roles that are either 100% Asian or 100% Caucasian to be the same thing. If a hapa actor wants to play either a 100% white role or a 100% Asian role, that is his or her prerogative. (However, if a producer wanted a hypothetical hapa actor to put on make-up to look "more Asian," then I would question why the producer didn't just go with a 100% Asian actor in the first place.) In short, I do not regard Keanu Reeves or Kristin Kreuk as performing in "whiteface."

The point of raising this issue, in my opinion, is to get the mainstream U.S. entertainment industry to open up more opportunities for Asian American actors to play lead roles in the movies and on TV. That way, the industry can do a better job of reflecting this country's diversity, rather than, say, putting on yet another medical show set in San Francisco with no Asian American regular characters.

So, will someone please tell me where there are "plenty of Asian actors in 'whiteface'" in Hollywood, on U.S. network TV, or on Broadway?

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by Shuriken@Dec 21 2002, 08:45 PM
I get the idea that people on this thread are comparing apples to oranges.

I'm talking about what goes on in the U.S. entertainment industry, not overseas. I'm sure that worse things happen in the entertainment industies overseas, but that doesn't make the bad things that happen here acceptable. It's like saying that no one should complain about the Japanese American internment in the U.S. because the Nazi Holocaust in Europe was worse. I agree that the Nazi Halocaust was worse in terms of human life, but the fact remains that the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights should have prevented the internment from happening in this country the first place. Similarly, America's ideals of equal opportunity should not be held hostage to the practices of other countries. One shouldn't say, "This form of discrimination in this country is acceptable because worse forms of discrimination happen in other countries." The law doesn't work that way. So, as far as I'm concerned, the casting practices in other countries are irrelevant to this discussion.

In the U.S., white actors have traditionally played lead Asian roles. Yes, you can find a few exceptions, over the decades, of Asian actors playing lead Asian roles: Sessue Hayakawa, Anna May Wong, James Shigeta, etc. But for the most part, a lead Asian role in Hollywood or on Broadway was played by a 100% Caucasian actor wearing make-up to look Asian (Boris Karloff as Fu Manchu, Joseph Wiseman as Dr. No, ad infinitum). An alternate strategy has been to have 100% Caucasian actors with Asian-like appearances play these roles (David Carradine in Kung Fu being the best known).

I have never heard of a 100% Asian actor putting on "whiteface" make-up to play a lead Caucasian role in the U.S. entertainment industry. In this country, the practice does not work both ways.

And with the sole exception of Lucy Liu playing Catherine Zeta-Jones in the lone aforementioned SNL sketch, I cannot mention another time that a recognizably Asian actor has ever played a white character in the mainstream U.S. media. One TV comedy sketch is hardly an indicator that the playing field is completely level.

I do not regard hapa actors playing roles that are either 100% Asian or 100% Caucasian to be the same thing. If a hapa actor wants to play either a 100% white role or a 100% Asian role, that is his or her prerogative. (However, if a producer wanted a hypothetical hapa actor to put on make-up to look "more Asian," then I would question why the producer didn't just go with a 100% Asian actor in the first place.) In short, I do not regard Keanu Reeves or Kristin Kreuk as performing in "whiteface."

The point of raising this issue, in my opinion, is to get the mainstream U.S. entertainment industry to open up more opportunities for Asian American actors to play lead roles in the movies and on TV. That way, the industry can do a better job of reflecting this country's diversity, rather than, say, putting on yet another medical show set in San Francisco with no Asian American regular characters.

So, will someone please tell me where there are "plenty of Asian actors in 'whiteface'" in Hollywood, on U.S. network TV, or on Broadway?
In this country, there's an OVERabundance of white actors out there. There is no NEED or PURPOSE for a 100% Asian actor to waste makeup on pretending to be white. And I'm fairly certain that if an Asian actor decided to do so, they'd get a whole wheelbarrow full of shit and criticism from the Asian American community.

[Andrew]

Originally posted by Shuriken@Dec 21 2002, 08:45 PM
I'm talking about what goes on in the U.S. entertainment industry, not overseas. &nbsp;I'm sure that worse things happen in the entertainment industies overseas, but that doesn't make the bad things that happen here acceptable. &nbsp;It's like saying that no one should complain about the Japanese American internment in the U.S. because the Nazi Holocaust in Europe was worse. &nbsp;I agree that the Nazi Halocaust was worse in terms of human life, but the fact remains that the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights should have prevented the internment from happening in this country the first place. Similarly, America's ideals of equal opportunity should not be held hostage to the practices of other countries. &nbsp;One shouldn't say, "This form of discrimination in this country is acceptable because worse forms of discrimination happen in other countries." &nbsp;The law doesn't work that way. &nbsp;So, as far as I'm concerned, the casting practices in other countries are irrelevant to this discussion.
Agreed. In further support, here's a paragraph from a posting I made to the forums at ModelMinority.com (http://modelminority.com/modules.php?name=Forums):

While racism is inexcusable everywhere, white racism against nonwhite Americans in the United States is not morally equivalent to Asian racism against white foreigners in Asian countries. Unlike other countries, the United States was founded on principles, not ethnic identities. We've deviated from those principles for most of our history because of white supremacy enshrined in law and social norms, but that history does not make America a "white country" where (as you suggest) nonwhites who get treated better than white foreigners in Asia should stop complaining and consider themselves lucky.

[MellowDrama]

Well put Shuriken.

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by Shuriken@Dec 21 2002, 02:45 PM
I get the idea that people on this thread are comparing apples to oranges.

I'm talking about what goes on in the U.S. entertainment industry, not overseas. I'm sure that worse things happen in the entertainment industies overseas, but that doesn't make the bad things that happen here acceptable. It's like saying that no one should complain about the Japanese American internment in the U.S. because the Nazi Holocaust in Europe was worse. I agree that the Nazi Halocaust was worse in terms of human life, but the fact remains that the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights should have prevented the internment from happening in this country the first place. Similarly, America's ideals of equal opportunity should not be held hostage to the practices of other countries. One shouldn't say, "This form of discrimination in this country is acceptable because worse forms of discrimination happen in other countries." The law doesn't work that way. So, as far as I'm concerned, the casting practices in other countries are irrelevant to this discussion.

In the U.S., white actors have traditionally played lead Asian roles. Yes, you can find a few exceptions, over the decades, of Asian actors playing lead Asian roles: Sessue Hayakawa, Anna May Wong, James Shigeta, etc. But for the most part, a lead Asian role in Hollywood or on Broadway was played by a 100% Caucasian actor wearing make-up to look Asian (Boris Karloff as Fu Manchu, Joseph Wiseman as Dr. No, ad infinitum). An alternate strategy has been to have 100% Caucasian actors with Asian-like appearances play these roles (David Carradine in Kung Fu being the best known).

I have never heard of a 100% Asian actor putting on "whiteface" make-up to play a lead Caucasian role in the U.S. entertainment industry. In this country, the practice does not work both ways.

And with the sole exception of Lucy Liu playing Catherine Zeta-Jones in the lone aforementioned SNL sketch, I cannot mention another time that a recognizably Asian actor has ever played a white character in the mainstream U.S. media. One TV comedy sketch is hardly an indicator that the playing field is completely level.

I do not regard hapa actors playing roles that are either 100% Asian or 100% Caucasian to be the same thing. If a hapa actor wants to play either a 100% white role or a 100% Asian role, that is his or her prerogative. (However, if a producer wanted a hypothetical hapa actor to put on make-up to look "more Asian," then I would question why the producer didn't just go with a 100% Asian actor in the first place.) In short, I do not regard Keanu Reeves or Kristin Kreuk as performing in "whiteface."

The point of raising this issue, in my opinion, is to get the mainstream U.S. entertainment industry to open up more opportunities for Asian American actors to play lead roles in the movies and on TV. That way, the industry can do a better job of reflecting this country's diversity, rather than, say, putting on yet another medical show set in San Francisco with no Asian American regular characters.

So, will someone please tell me where there are "plenty of Asian actors in 'whiteface'" in Hollywood, on U.S. network TV, or on Broadway?
Apples & Oranges - Are you saying that's what I'm doing? Because I haven't spoken my mind on the subject one way or the other yet.

US vs Overseas - That's a good point. But I still say you're reading a lot more into BTR's comments than what he said.

You obviously know a lot about Asian American actors in Hollywood and the history of Yellowface, and it's obviously a subject you care a lot about. But you're still being incredibly patronizing. No one ever said that because of Lucy Liu things everything's all better.

And, in point of fact, the point of raising this issue was to talk about how race mixing is made invisible by Hollywood casting Whites as Eurasians, or not casting any Hapas in a situation that calls for them. Your points about Yellowface and the imbalance between Whites and Asians in this country are valid (although I don't agree with all of them), but they're straying from the topic at hand.

[BeTheReds]

Okay everyone, again, i was not saying that when lucy liu played cathering zeta jones that the field is level. I was only presenting the argument to counter everyone saying that it never happens the other way around. On almost all variety shows with a mostly white and black cast, they almost always end up playing asian characters sooner or later. Would it have been better to cast an Asian character on the show and have him ALWAYS take the Asian parts? I don't particularly find Mike Meyer's casting as lance ITo as offensive towards Asians in any way. Of course you knew he wasn't the real thing but he got the voice down really well. The beard and glasses and the judge's robe can hardly be called Yellowface. Why does no one get angry because they had a man playing Janet Reno. Because it is a comedy show...

When I listed what goes on in Asia, it was not to say go back to Asia so you can succeed in showbiz. People are missing the point. I've seen plenty of Japanese actors play white people, and even don blackface to play michael Jackson or tina turner.. No white people I know here care about that, and I am not sure if black people are opposed to the blackface, because I don't know any black people here, but I got a really really uneasy feeling when I was watching it.

I know the playing field is not level yet, but I honestly think that this Yellowface phenominon is gone. Never will you see a white character in an Asian role these days except in variety shows when an asian cast member is absent. Never will you see a white actor don a black wig and scotch tape his eyes back in an effort to look more asian and play a lead role in a movie. That kind of stuff simply does not happen. David Carradine does not count because 1. Kung Fu the Legend continues was a sequel to that show from the 1960s or 1970s and David Carradine was still alive, so of course they would use him again. That show sucked anyway so who cares?

REad what Angel and Yuhei wrote above, it sums up pretty much what I wanted to say.

[kimpossible]

What about Richard Gere in Rhapsody in August?

[Shuriken]

Okay, folks, if I seem to have flown off the handle over this issue, it's because, in my days as a media activist, I've run into a bunch of apologists for the status quo who keep bringing up similar arguments to justify the entertainment industry's current, racially biased (however unconsciously) practices. I didn't mean to say that Eugene was telling everyone to "go back where they came from." What I meant was that I've heard this argument before from others, and that is always how it has sounded to my ears: If you don't like the casting practices in this country, go to Asia, where you'll have more opportunities. I would never accuse anyone on this site of making that implication. I apologize — especially to Eugene — if I came across differently.

Still, some of the comments on this thread — even if they're just made to play the Devil's advocate — sound like justifications for the way things are. I think that folks need to go back and look at the Miss Saigon controversy before they try to rationalize the industry's casting practices. In 1990, the character of the Engineer in Miss Saigon was to be Broadway's first Asian male lead (non-supporting) role in 15 years. Not since Mako's performance as the Narrator in 1976's Pacific Overtures had an Asian male qualified for the Tony Award as best lead actor, and in those intervening years, no white male lead had ever been cast with an Asian actor.

Especially interesting was the fact that Miss Saigon's British producer, Cameron Mackintosh, had reportedly announced that he was determined to have a specifically Asian actress to play the Vietnamese title character in the original London production. I once read that Mackintosh had said that if he couldn't find an Asian actress for the role, he wouldn't produce the musical. To his credit, Mackintosh went all over the world (including the U.S.) to find his lead actress, casting Lea Solanga after holding auditions in the Philippines.

But when it came to casting the Vietnamese male lead, the Engineer, Mackintosh claimed that he needed an established star of the British stage for the part (which effectively — if unintentionally — froze any ethnically East Asian actors out of the running). According to publicity, Mackintosh and his creative team got the idea of casting Jonathan Pryce when throwing around the names of well-known actors. After meeting together, Mackintosh cast Pryce in the role. There were no other auditions.

The big question in my mind is: Why the double standard? Why was it essential that the lead actress be Asian, while the male lead had to be an established star in Britain? If it was absolutely nesessary for the Asian female lead to be played by an Asian, why didn't the same hold true for the Asian male lead? And conversely, if the male lead had to be played by an established star, why was it all right for the female lead to be played by an unknown? To this date, Mackintosh has never answered these questions — not that any journalist has been inclined to ask him, mind you.

Now, this was all going on in Britain, and if Miss Saigon had stayed there, I wouldn't care. What made Miss Saigon's casting a crucial issue in the U.S. is that when Mackintosh (who also produced Cats, Phantom of the Opera, and Les Misérables) made plans in 1990 to bring the show to Broadway, he wanted Pryce to reprise the role of the Engineer — without auditioning any American actors. When Actors Equity pointed out that he was casting a white actor in a rare Asian male lead, Mackintosh's casting agents set up a series of meetings with some Asian American actors, purportedly to audition them for playing the Engineer in Miss Saigon's Broadway opening. But it became clear to these actors that the meetings were a mere formality to clear a path for Pryce. At his meeting with the casting director, Sab Shimono (Pacific Overtures, Come See the Paradise) was told to buy the soundtrack and familiarize himself with it, but immediately afterwards, the casting director told Mackintosh that Shimono "was the first to admit that he couldn't cut it vocally." Shimono insists that he said no such thing. Even before these so-called "auditions" were held, George Takei contacted his agent about playing the part but was told that it had already been cast.

Mackintosh protested to Equity that he needed a star to play the Engineer and that there weren't any Asian American stars. A number of people pointed to John Lone, who not only could sing but was still basking in the afterglow of The Last Emperor's multiple Oscar win. At the time, John Lone was probably much better known than Jonathan Pryce. Mackintosh later said that Lone was not available. The actress Kim Miyori (St. Elsewhere) told me that she spoke to John Lone at this time, and he said that he was never approached by Mackintosh to play the part, nor did he say that he was unavailble. In other words, Mackintosh lied.

Actors Equity needed to approve Pryce's visa to appear on Broadway. Although the union clearly made it known to Mackintosh that they were displeased by his refusal to audition any Asian male actors in good faith, he submitted Pryce's name for the visa anyway. Equity turned him down. But by this time, Miss Saigon had already amassed $25-million in advance ticket sales (a record at the time). Rather than taking Equity's veto to arbitration, which he had the option to do, Mackintosh accused Equity of discriminating against Pryce on the basis of his race and canceled the Broadway production. The press immediately lambasted Equity and the Asian American community for their "reverse discrimination." No one bothered to look into why a white actor was cast in a rare Asian male lead in the first place. Platitudes were thrown around about how acting is about being someone other than one's self, but no one in the press asked why Asian actors never got to play white leads on Broadway. Some opposed to affirmative action lauded Mackintosh for his "color-blind" casting, conveniently overlooking the fact that non-Asian actresses were not allowed to audition for Miss Saigon's title role.

In the end, Equity did the economically expedient thing and reversed its veto of Pryce. Predictably, Pryce won the Tony Award for Best Actor in a Musical, thanking Miss Saigon's "multi-racial cast" in his acceptance speech. Earlier, Mackintosh said that Asian American actors weren't good enough to play the Engineer, but after Pryce vacated the role, the Engineer has only been played by ethnically Asian actors — who, given what Mackintosh said, presumably materialized out of thin air sometime after Pryce opened the part.

I'm not writing this as a champion of Miss Saigon's content. I've listened to the soundtrack, and the show is merely an updating of Madame Butterfly that trafficks in some of the worst Asian stereotypes. I'm sympathetic to the idea that it was better for a white actor to play the role of an Asian pimp than for an Asian actor to dignify the stereotype. But this backstage story epitomizes how Asian American actors have historically been kept beneath the industry's racial glass ceiling, relegated to ingènue or supporting roles if represented at all. I also think that this story addresses some of the concerns mentioned on this thread. There were Asian American actors — even an Asian American star in the person of John Lone — able to play the part, but the producer just didn't want to hire them, going so far as to lie in order to justify what he was doing. It also belies the idea that casting is completely color-blind: if that were true, why did Mackintosh search out a specifically Asian actress to play his Asian ingènue?

One good outcome of Miss Saigon is that it made the entertainment industry more sensitive to the issue of casting minority roles with minority actors. For example, if it hadn't been for Miss Saigon, I wonder if Disney would have made such a concerted effort to cast unseen Asian American voice actors as the Chinese characters in Mulan.

But yellowface is not completely in the past. Just this year, Steve Oedekerk put on a black wig and had himself digitally inserted into old Hong Kong kung-fu footage to play the ostensibly Chinese lead in the Hollywood feature Kung Pow: Enter the Fist. (And for the record, many say that whenever a white actor plays an Asian role, that consitutes yellowface, whether appearance-altering make-up is used or not.) If Oedekerk had wanted to put on an Afro wig and have himself digitally inserted into old 1970s Blaxploitation movies, I wonder if he would have gotten Hollywood backing to do a movie like that.

For more about the Miss Saigon casting controversy, see the book Asian American Dreams by Helen Zia.

[deez nuts]

Shuriken, I can see where the frustration and angst comes from. I appreciate the insight and your crusade in the matter. It's not a field I am in familiar with, but the info and insight you have provided definitely does not go unappreciated on my part. Thanks for the education.

And keep on fighting....you're paving the way for the future.

[Shuriken]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Dec 23 2002, 05:37 AM
I don't particularly find Mike Meyer's casting as lance ITo as offensive towards Asians in any way. Of course you knew he wasn't the real thing but he got the voice down really well. The beard and glasses and the judge's robe can hardly be called Yellowface. Why does no one get angry because they had a man playing Janet Reno. Because it is a comedy show...


I don't mind it when comedy-sketch shows have non-fictional Asian public figures played by non-Asian actors — provided that the Asian person's ethnicity is not the butt of the joke. In these cases, such as when Mike Myers played Lance Ito or Molly Shannon played Michelle Kwan, I can accept it as the show lampooning public figures who just happened to be Asian. And I was relieved that the Saturday Night Live — to its credit — did not target their ethnicity.

However, a number of non-Asian radio comedians have satirized Asian American public figures but constantly harped on their ethnicity. The worst of these had people such as Connie Chung, Lance Ito, and Dennis Fung speaking with exaggerated Asian accents that they don't have in real life. To me, that crosses the line.

But when a fictional Asian character is played by a non-Asian actor (such as Alex Borstein as Ms. Swan), my spider sense starts tingling. Why is it necessary that this fictional character be Asian? And if it is necessary for the character to be Asian, why not have the character played by an Asian actor? And if a comedy-sketch show has no Asian cast members, I have to ask why. Were any auditioned? If so, were any given a fair chance, or was their Asianness considered to be a limitation?

And why doesn't anyone get angry when an occasional female role is played by a man? Because Broadway and Hollywood don't routinely cast lead female roles with men! By contrast, the U.S. entertainment industry has historically cast lead Asian roles with white actors. This practice denied Asian American actors opportunities to play lead roles. Only in the last generation has this discriminatory practice abated.

[Shuriken]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Dec 23 2002, 07:05 PM
What about Richard Gere in Rhapsody in August?
Rhapsody in August was a Japanese production. If the Nihonjin want to cast their hapa roles with white actors, that's fine with me. There are plenty of other opportunities for Asian actors in Japan. My only concern is that Hollywood might look on this as Asian acceptance of yellowface in this country.

[Shuriken]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Dec 24 2002, 12:37 AM
And keep on fighting....you're paving the way for the future.
Thanks, CSB. I really appreciate that... :)

[Shuriken]

Since this thread was originally aout hapa actors playing hapa roles, what can anyone tell me about Lindsay Price's character in Beverly Hills 90210? I never watched the show, so I don't know. But I did hear that James Shigeta played her father in one episode...

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by Shuriken@Dec 23 2002, 06:51 PM
Rhapsody in August was a Japanese production. If the Nihonjin want to cast their hapa roles with white actors, that's fine with me. There are plenty of other opportunities for Asian actors in Japan. My only concern is that Hollywood might look on this as Asian acceptance of yellowface in this country.
No personal offense intended Shuriken, but attitudes like this are what have been bothering me about your posts on this subject. The original question was about Hapa actors only being able to act in single ethnicity roles and single ethnicity people playing Hapas; you start talking about how Asian American actors can't get any roles and are having characters written for their ethnicity stolen by Whites. Then BTR points out that there are plenty of Asians in Whiteface and you act as if he's told you to "go back home" (I think you've already cleared the air on this subject, I'm only bringing it up to prove a point), when he was just pointing out that Asians are disrespecting Whites in Asian the same way Whites in America disrespect Asians. Now you say it doesn't matter if Japanese cast a White man as a Hapa... Which to me seems like a complete reversal of your earlier position, as it is still a role written for a specific ethnicity (in this case mix of ethnicities) being played by an actor not of that ethnicity.

Again, no personal offense intended, but you've pretty much turned this thread into your soapbox about Yellowface's effects on Asian Americans, yet you've completely ignored similar practices outside the US and ignored the question of the portrayal of Hapas in the media except as it pertains to the portrayal of full Asians or Asian Americans. Why isn't it be just as offensive when a single ethnicity actor plays a mixed race character? "There are plenty of other opportunities for Asian actors in Japan" - but how many for Hapas (in Hapa roles) in Japan? How many opportunities for Hapas in Hapa roles in the US? To me these issues are tantamount to the ones you have brought up.

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by Shuriken@Dec 23 2002, 05:04 PM
Since this thread was originally aout hapa actors playing hapa roles, what can anyone tell me about Lindsay Price's character in Beverly Hills 90210? I never watched the show, so I don't know. But I did hear that James Shigeta played her father in one episode...
I'm quite sure this was yet another case of a mixed Chinese actor/actress playing the part of someone fully Asian. Didn't follow 90210 like mad but for situations like that my attention gets turned up a little higher.

Let's see if bun boy and MK let me get away with that explanation.

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Dec 23 2002, 08:19 PM
No personal offense intended Shuriken, but attitudes like this are what have been bothering me about your posts on this subject. The original question was about Hapa actors only being able to act in single ethnicity roles and single ethnicity people playing Hapas; you start talking about how Asian American actors can't get any roles and are having characters written for their ethnicity stolen by Whites. Then BTR points out that there are plenty of Asians in Whiteface and you act as if he's told you to "go back home" (I think you've already cleared the air on this subject, I'm only bringing it up to prove a point), when he was just pointing out that Asians are disrespecting Whites in Asian the same way Whites in America disrespect Asians. Now you say it doesn't matter if Japanese cast a White man as a Hapa... Which to me seems like a complete reversal of your earlier position, as it is still a role written for a specific ethnicity (in this case mix of ethnicities) being played by an actor not of that ethnicity.

Again, no personal offense intended, but you've pretty much turned this thread into your soapbox about Yellowface's effects on Asian Americans, yet you've completely ignored similar practices outside the US and ignored the question of the portrayal of Hapas in the media except as it pertains to the portrayal of full Asians or Asian Americans. Why isn't it be just as offensive when a single ethnicity actor plays a mixed race character? "There are plenty of other opportunities for Asian actors in Japan" - but how many for Hapas (in Hapa roles) in Japan? How many opportunities for Hapas in Hapa roles in the US? To me these issues are tantamount to the ones you have brought up.
Not to mention that there if the 'Asian' movie has an American release it can still be subject to the American whitening treatment. There was this horrible TV movie called The Lost Empire that supposedly started out as a decent script written by a Chinese guy that got chewed up and shit out as white scholar saves frightened Chinese from evil Chinese villian and bags Gwan Yin and her mondo cleavage.

[Shuriken]

Okay, let's see if we can clear up any misunderstandings here...

Then BTR points out that there are plenty of Asians in Whiteface and you act as if he's told you to "go back home"...when he was just pointing out that Asians are disrespecting Whites in Asian the same way Whites in America disrespect Asians.

Given the context of the discussion, I took BTR's comments to mean that since Asian actors in Asian countries played white parts, that makes it okay for white actors in such racially diverse countries as the United States to play Asian roles — while ethnically Asian actors in these countries are not given commensurate opportunities to play white roles. If that was not what he meant, then I believe that he could have been much clearer about what he was trying to say.

Again, I have limited my comments to casting practices in the U.S. As far as I can tell, Asian countries do not profess ideals of equal opportunities for all races the way that we do here in America. If Asian countries discriminate against white people or hapa people in any way, we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard and do a better job of living up to our ideals. How many jobs are there for hapa actors in Japan? I don't know how many hapa actors there are in Japan. But I do know that there are plenty of full-Asian and hapa actors in the U.S., and I don't think that arbitrary obstacles should keep them from maximizing their potential (although not all Asian American actors are star material). If a role is written for an Asian or hapa character in this country, I know that there are plenty of Asian or hapa actors available to play the part; I don't know if that's true in the case of white or hapa roles in Asian countries. As I said before, the practices of the entertainment industries overseas are irrelevant to what I'm talking about.

I'm not sure if this is an issue, but it was never my intention to suggest that white people, as a group, are inherently more discriminatory than non-whites; I didn't mean to say that at all.

But I don't see anything inherently "disrespectful" about white actors playing Asian roles (unless, perhaps, the role is an objectionable stereotype). For the record, I actually like the performances of Luise Rainer in The Good Earth and David Carradine in the original Kung Fu series (The Legend Continues was absolutely awful). They played their characters with gravity, depth, and dignity. The only thing that bothers me about these performances is that Rainer and Carradine's Asian American colleagues were not given equal opportunities to play lead roles. Anna May Wong desperately wanted to play the lead in The Good Earth, but the studio was afraid in those anti-miscegenation times of casting an Asian actress to play the wife of a character played by a white actor (so Wong was disqualified because of her race), while Kung Fu had been developed by Bruce Lee as a starring vehicle for himself. So, talented Asian actors were available for these parts — while non-Asian parts were closed to them — but the producers cast white actors instead.

If recognizably Asian American actors were allowed to play lead roles of any race in the U.S. entertainment industry, then this whole subject wouldn't be an issue. It's only an issue because cross-racial casting has historically been a one-way street in the U.S.: whites have routinely played Asian leads, but recognizable Asians have not historically been considered for white leads. That is where the disrespect lies. And the issue of yellowface came up in the first place because a character being hapa has lately been a rationale for the industry to cast a prominent Asian role with a white actor, as was the case with Miss Saigon: by all logic, the Engineer should have been 100% Vietnamese, but the producer labeled the character "Eurasian" to justify casting a white actor in the role.

Does that clear things up?

[DaBestSpooner]

hmmm nobody mentioned "red dragon"

[YuheiCarreau]

Originally posted by Shuriken@Dec 23 2002, 11:12 PM
Again, I have limited my comments to casting practices in the U.S. As far as I can tell, Asian countries do not profess ideals of equal opportunities for all races the way that we do here in America. If Asian countries discriminate against white people or hapa people in any way, we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard and do a better job of living up to our ideals. How many jobs are there for hapa actors in Japan? I don't know how many hapa actors there are in Japan. But I do know that there are plenty of full-Asian and hapa actors in the U.S., and I don't think that arbitrary obstacles should keep them from maximizing their potential (although not all Asian American actors are star material). If a role is written for an Asian or hapa character in this country, I know that there are plenty of Asian or hapa actors available to play the part; I don't know if that's true in the case of white or hapa roles in Asian countries. As I said before, the practices of the entertainment industries overseas are irrelevant to what I'm talking about.

I'm not sure if this is an issue, but it was never my intention to suggest that white people, as a group, are inherently more discriminatory than non-whites; I didn't mean to say that at all.

But I don't see anything inherently "disrespectful" about white actors playing Asian roles (unless, perhaps, the role is an objectionable stereotype). For the record, I actually like the performances of Luise Rainer in The Good Earth and David Carradine in the original Kung Fu series (The Legend Continues was absolutely awful). They played their characters with gravity, depth, and dignity. The only thing that bothers me about these performances is that Rainer and Carradine's Asian American colleagues were not given equal opportunities to play lead roles. Anna May Wong desperately wanted to play the lead in The Good Earth, but the studio was afraid in those anti-miscegenation times of casting an Asian actress to play the wife of a character played by a white actor (so Wong was disqualified because of her race), while Kung Fu had been developed by Bruce Lee as a starring vehicle for himself. So, talented Asian actors were available for these parts — while non-Asian parts were closed to them — but the producers cast white actors instead.

If recognizably Asian American actors were allowed to play lead roles of any race in the U.S. entertainment industry, then this whole subject wouldn't be an issue. It's only an issue because cross-racial casting has historically been a one-way street in the U.S.: whites have routinely played Asian leads, but recognizable Asians have not historically been considered for white leads. That is where the disrespect lies. And the issue of yellowface came up in the first place because a character being hapa has lately been a rationale for the industry to cast a prominent Asian role with a white actor, as was the case with Miss Saigon: by all logic, the Engineer should have been 100% Vietnamese, but the producer labeled the character "Eurasian" to justify casting a white actor in the role.

Does that clear things up?
Unfortunately, it doesn't. You still haven't answered my question - why are you taking such a clear stance on the issue of Whites playing Asians and Asians not having roles written for them, why are you articulating your opinion so strongly, yet sidestepping the matter that is at the core of Hello Hapa's initial post: Why are Hapas invisible in current media (except, as you pointed out, as a justification for cross-racial casting)? Why are Hapas being played by single-ethnicity actors? Why are Hapa roles not being written, even in situations that demand them?

At the risk of sounding patronizing myself, this is the Hapa forum. The question was about Hapas being portrayed as Hapas. You've said it's unjust to change a full Asian character to a Hapa simply to let Jonathan Pryce play the Engineer; what about if a Hapa were to play that role? Would it be fine? Would it be disrespectful because casting a Hapa is denying a full Asian a role that was written with him in mind? Would it be disrespectful because a Hapa is being asked to play something he's not? If a full Asian were asked to play a Hapa, would that be disrespectful - or are Hapas just a subset of Asian, and therefor it's OK for him to play one? Why do you speak up when Pryce takes a role written for a full Asian (which was justified by changing the character to a Hapa), but not when Gere takes a role written for a Hapa? If it's necessary for a 'recognizeably Asian' person to play an Asian role, why doesn't a Hapa role require a 'recognizeably Hapa' actor? Saying "the Japanese can do what they want, it's none of my business" is just mealy-mouthing. Why are you only making it your business when it happens in the US? Why, if domestic matters are your main concern, haven't you made an issue of the lead female role being played by an Asian when there are plenty of Asian Americans who could do it?

I'm not accusing you of discrimination, but I think you're ignoring a big part of this issue and turning the conversation towards an area you feel more comfortable talking about. I'm not trying to get you to stop offering your opinions - for the most part, the practice of Yellowface and the people it affects overlap with the practice of hiding Hapas or putting single ethnicity actors into 'Hapaface' - but I do want you to start offering ones that address HH's question full on.

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Dec 23 2002, 11:31 PM


Let's see if bun boy and MK let me get away with that explanation.
Aroooo? :blink:

Lost again.

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Dec 24 2002, 05:15 AM
Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Dec 23 2002, 11:31 PM


Let's see if bun boy and MK let me get away with that explanation.
Aroooo? :blink:

Lost again.
Ain't no thing. I was trying to justify why I knew a 90210 storyline.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Dec 24 2002, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Dec 24 2002, 05:15 AM
Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Dec 23 2002, 11:31 PM


Let's see if bun boy and MK let me get away with that explanation.
Aroooo? :blink:

Lost again.
Ain't no thing. I was trying to justify why I knew a 90210 storyline.
hahhah

no i didn't watch any 90210
sorry

and actually, looking back, i haven't watched much tv at all since high school. and i pretty much haven't watched any tv at all for the last 2 years or so (well except for the chinese tv while i was unemployed and staying with my parents for a few months. :P ). and now i don't even have a tv.

er... ok sorry for the tangent.

shuriken - yes you've mentioned the injustices that are displayed in the theater and film industries towards casting asians. but let's focus more on the original issue, which is the casting of hapas and hapa characters played by people who aren't hapa.

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Dec 24 2002, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Dec 24 2002, 05:15 AM
Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Dec 23 2002, 11:31 PM


Let's see if bun boy and MK let me get away with that explanation.
Aroooo? :blink:

Lost again.
Ain't no thing. I was trying to justify why I knew a 90210 storyline.
I love 90210!

was hooked on it in high school!

[kimpossible]

Just want to make some quick clarifications about this thread. We're not after trying to pit people or opinions against one another but rather I just noticed a trend. None of us are strangers to the idea of interracial Asian marriages; we see it on the street and in American movies. Usually it's an Asian woman and non-Asian man. I've seen that in US movies over and over again until I just about bleed from the eyes but I can't say the same about these couples having children. What does that say? I'm not sure but my guess is that stories where those IR Asian/non-Asian couples are romanticized... that's where it ends because that's where the public starts to get uncomfortable with the idea of mixed race Asians unless there's some sad identity crisis or social outcast story to accompany that character.

This seems to hold as general rules:

*a mixed race Asian actor who looks Asian enough is cast in fully Asian roles
*a mixed race Asian actor who looks white is cast in white roles
*a characater who is supposedly mixed race Asian will be played by a white actor and the character most likely exists only to allow a mainly white audience to more readily identify with the character so it doesn't feel so 'foreign'

Somewhat along the same vein, I'm intrigued by Vin Diesel's mainstream appeal and marketability, and his desire to not reveal his racial mixture. It's his business of course and I'm not going to lose any sleep over it but I think I might try to catch his film Multifacial.

Just debate and try to remember to have fun. Otherwise, good conversation. I think this is the longest topic we have in here.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Dec 24 2002, 11:32 AM
Just want to make some quick clarifications about this thread. We're not after trying to pit people or opinions against one another but rather I just noticed a trend. None of us are strangers to the idea of interracial Asian marriages; we see it on the street and in American movies. Usually it's an Asian woman and non-Asian man. I've seen that in US movies over and over again until I just about bleed from the eyes but I can't say the same about these couples having children. What does that say? I'm not sure but my guess is that stories where those IR Asian/non-Asian couples are romanticized... that's where it ends because that's where the public starts to get uncomfortable with the idea of mixed race Asians unless there's some sad identity crisis or social outcast story to accompany that character.
yeah what else is new? mainstream producers don't want to put in anything that they think the mainstream audience would be uncomfortable with.

[Shuriken]

Okay, I'm gonna give this one last shot and then give up. I'm sure that everybody else stopped reading my long-winded posts a long time ago.

I now see where the drama is coming from: a discussion about hapa actors playing (or not playing) hapa characters has been hijacked by some interloper talking about yellowface. However, I think it's important to remember — as Hello Hapa mentions in her post above — that many of the most prominent "hapa" characters in mainstream U.S. entertainment were merely labeled as such to accommodate the casting of white actors in what were ostensibly full-blooded Asian roles. So, to me, the "Amerasian" or "Eurasian" label has always been a bit suspect when it comes to prominent characters in the Western media. I seldom see a "hapa" character dealing with issues of what it means to be of mixed-race. In the original London libretto of Miss Saigon, for example, the Engineer never makes one reference about being half-white during the entire play. But if he had lived in race-conscious Vietnam in the 1970s, this certainly would have come up. (References to his being Eurasian were later inserted into the revised Broadway libretto.)

However, during the casting controversy, the hapa (black/Japanese) playwright Velina Hasu Houston — whom I greatly respect — entered the fray, saying that Miss Saigon was about the hapa experience in Vietnam, and therefore, the Engineer ought to be played by a hapa actor, not a full-blooded Asian. Of course, Miss Saigon was not about the hapa experience; it was about a Vietnamese hooker and her Vietnamese pimp. Although Ms. Houston had very good intentions, her arguments helped to divide the Asian American artistic community, and this helped Cameron Mackintosh to prevail in the controversy. So, one should be aware that the hapa/full-blooded-Asian split can be used by the mainstream as a divide-and-conquor tactic to maintain the status quo. This is another reason why I think that a discussion of yellowface is relevant to this thread.

Why are you only making it your business when it happens in the US?

Because I'm a citizen of the U.S., not an Asian country. I thought I did a good job of answering this question. But to answer it again as simply as I can: different countries, different contexts. I don't object to a non-Asian actor playing an Asian or hapa role in an Asian-national film (such as Richard Gere in Rhapsody in August) for the same reason that Asian actors playing white roles in Asian countries don't "balance out" white actors playing Asian roles in the U.S.: there are plenty of opportunities for Asian actors in Asian countries. Would I prefer that Gere's role had been played by a hapa? Yes. But issues of ethnic diversity in Japanese entertainment are for the Japanese to decide, not those of us in the U.S. Obviously, there's a lot that I respect about Japanese culture, but ideals of equal opportunity and embracing ethnic diversity are, to put it mildly, not Japan's strongest suits. Much more fundamental issues will need to be confronted before ethnic diversity in the media can be addressed — such as the social stigmatizing of the burakumin ("untouchables") and the Japanese of Korean ancestry (who aren't even recognized as Japanese). America is more ethnically diverse, and we profess ideals of equal opportunity. We should do what we can to live up to those ideals, even if Japan (and other Asian nations) does not.

You've said it's unjust to change a full Asian character to a Hapa simply to let Jonathan Pryce play the Engineer; what about if a Hapa were to play that role? Would it be fine? Would it be disrespectful because casting a Hapa is denying a full Asian a role that was written with him in mind? Would it be disrespectful because a Hapa is being asked to play something he's not?

The short answer is that it would be okay. Generally speaking, if a hapa actor is cast in a full-blooded Asian role, that's perfectly acceptable. In fact, when Miss Saigon premiered in Los Angeles, the Engineer was played by hapa actor Kevin Gray, who is half-Filipino, which was fine with me (the damage had alreday been done in New York, anyway). The longer answer is that I prefer it when the hapa actor playing the part "looks" Asian (or "more Asian than not"). If the hapa actor can still pass for white, I'm less satisfied with that — but I wouldn't make a big stink over it. In fact, Kevin Gray doesn't look all that Asian to me. I didn't see him as the Engineer, but I did see him as the white male lead in a production of Show Boat: I wouldn't have known that he was Asian. Nevertheless, I'm willing to believe that Gray brought his own first-hand experiences of being culturally Asian to the part of the Engineer.

Why, if domestic matters are your main concern, haven't you made an issue of the lead female role being played by an Asian when there are plenty of Asian Americans who could do it?

I think that the most important issue is for more Asian faces — whether Asian American or from overseas — to be seen in prominent roles in the mainstream U.S. entertainment industry. Also, Cameron Mackintosh did hold casting calls in both Los Angeles and Hawaii before settling on Lea Solanga, so he did give Asian American actresses the chance that he wasn't willing to give Asian American actors. Finally, Miss Saigon's title character is an Asian national, not an Asian American. For all these reasons, I didn't mind that the actress opening the role on Broadway was not a native-born Asian American.

I usually only get concerned about the actor being Asian American if the character is Asian American. For example, the film Snow Falling on Cedars cast its Japanese American female lead with an actress from Japan, Youki Kudoh, who spoke her lines with a noticeable Japanese accent. This really bothered me: the character was born in America, raised in America, and educated in America. Why did she speak with a foreign accent? Ironically, the story was supposed to criticize the internment, and Japanese Americans were thrown into the camps because mainstream America couldn't distinguish them from Japanese nationals. By casting a foreign-accented actress in this role, Snow Falling on Cedars only reinforced that lack of distinction, completely undermining its critique of the internment. I had to ask myself: if the story called for a character who was the native-born daughter of European immigrants, would they have cast a white actress who spoke with a European accent? I think not. If Kudoh had been able to pull of an American accent (as Hong Kong native Nancy Kwan did with her Chinese American character in Flower Drum Song), I wouldn't have minded. But I had to ask why the filmmakers made this kind of casting decision. (Ironically, Filipino-born Lea Solanga speaks English with a perfect American accent — or "without an accent" as some U.S.-centrics like to say.)

Oh, well, that's the best I can do. Feel free to disagree with me...

[Shuriken]

Okay, so why so few hapa characters in American media? From my experience, it's largely because the Asian American community is off Hollywood's radar. Unless a character is a kung-fu master or the "exotic" female love interest for a non-Asian hero, Hollywood, by and large, doesn't even know that Asian America exists. No executive will say this, but by all appearances, the American TV networks seem to regard an Asian character in a show to be a liability. It's just something that they don't want to deal with. The Asian faces that you're now seeing in supporting roles in the San Francisco-set medical shows are the direct result of community pressure on the networks. Left to their own devices, the networks wouldn't have changed anything.

If Hollywood is so blinkered about Asian Americans, you can imagine that they're even more blind to hapa-specific issues. I'm sure it dosen't even occur to most media creators that hapas would have their own specific concerns and issues.

The only hapa role played by a hapa actor in a high-profile Hollywood movie that I can think of right now is Brandon Lee in Showdown in Little Tokyo, but that is a horrible film, and I urge everyone not to see it. Brandon never looked particularly Asian (he was 5/8 white), and I'll bet that the only reason Showdown made him Asian was because everyone knew that his father was Bruce Lee.

Does everyone know that Lauren Tom's character in The Joy Luck Club was hapa in the novel?

There are two hapa straight-to-video stars: Mark Dascascos and Don "The Dragon" Wilson. Is anyone familiar with their work and whether they play hapa characters in their starring roles?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Shuriken@Dec 24 2002, 09:17 PM
Does everyone know that Lauren Tom's character in The Joy Luck Club was hapa in the novel?
yeah i knew.
the book was better than the movie.
but i think the movie had excellent child actresses. and one of them became shelby woo!

[Shuriken]

Hey, everyone, I just remembered a GOOD mainstream movie with a hapa main character played by an ostensibly hapa actor. It is the Disney Channel TV movie JOHNNY TSUNAMI (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0206064). The story is about a hapa schoolboy (the son of an Asian American father and a Caucasian mother!) who moves from his native Hawaii to Vermont, and the problems that he faces as a fish out of water. The boy resolves his problems by turning to his surfer-dude grandfather, played by Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa in a rare non-villain/suspect role. Can anyone think of a hapa movie like this with an adult main character?

[Shuriken]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Dec 24 2002, 04:35 AM
Not to mention that there if the 'Asian' movie has an American release it can still be subject to the American whitening treatment. There was this horrible TV movie called The Lost Empire that supposedly started out as a decent script written by a Chinese guy that got chewed up and shit out as white scholar saves frightened Chinese from evil Chinese villian and bags Gwan Yin and her mondo cleavage.
For years, playwright David Henry Hwang (M. Butterfly) wanted to write a network-TV miniseries of the 200-year-old Chinese novel Journey to the West, in which the mythical figure of the Monkey King was the main character. Producer Robert Halmi, who was the main producer for Hallmark's Hall of Fame, agreed to produce the project — provided that (1) the story would have a white male lead and (2) this lead character would have an Asian female love interest. Hwang reportedly accepted these conditions because he thought that it was the only way the project would get done, and because he thought of the conditions as an "interesting challenge." So, Hawng stuck in a white lead character played by Thomas (Dharma & Greg) Gibson and had him fall in love with the goddess Kwan Yuen. This became The Lost Empire. (Most eye-rolling moment: Kwan Yuen tries to kiss Gibson's character on their first meeting — shades of Come See the Paradise!) I hear that Hwang has since then regretted his decision. But didn't that thought occur to him before he accepted the assignment?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Shuriken@Dec 26 2002, 07:31 PM
For years, playwright David Henry Hwang (M. Butterfly) wanted to write a network-TV miniseries of the 200-year-old Chinese novel Journey to the West, in which the mythical figure of the Monkey King was the main character. Producer Robert Halmi, who was the main producer for Hallmark's Hall of Fame, agreed to produce the project — provided that (1) the story would have a white male lead and (2) this lead character would have an Asian female love interest. Hwang reportedly accepted these conditions because he thought that it was the only way the project would get done, and because he thought of the conditions as an "interesting challenge." So, Hawng stuck in a white lead character played by Thomas (Dharma & Greg) Gibson and had him fall in love with the goddess Kwan Yuen. This became The Lost Empire. (Most eye-rolling moment: Kwan Yuen tries to kiss Gibson's character on their first meeting — shades of Come See the Paradise!) I hear that Hwang has since then regretted his decision. But didn't that thought occur to him before he accepted the assignment?
David Henry Hwang isn't exactly a rich dude is he? i mean he's got to eat too. don't blame the brother. blame the whitey!

[Shuriken]

Just in case anyone's interested, I thought I'd let you know that there's a hapa character in the new Jack Nicholson movie About Schmidt, for which he won the Golden Globe for Best Actor in a Drama just last weekend. Nicholson plays Schmidt, a retired Nebraska businessman whose daughter is marrying a man that Schmidt believes to be beneath her. The groom's father (Howard Hesseman) has divorced his mother (Kathy Bates) and remarried an Asian American woman named Saundra (Cheryl Hamada). They have a college-age son named Duncan (Mark Venhuizen), who's portrayed as an uninspired underachiever.

Part of the movie's climax includes a speech that the previously self-centered and inconsiderate Schmidt makes at his daughter's wedding, and the old man shakes off his solipsism long enough to pay Duncan an undeserved compliment. However, except for a dinner scene showing Duncan wearing a Japanese T-shirt, no big deal is made about either Duncan or Saundra being Asian. Not the most positive portrayal of Asians, but not especially offensive either.


(Puzzle: Remove every other letter from the name "Schmidt," and what does it spell?)

[BeTheReds]

uninspired underachiever hapas...

HELLO!