Gypsies in Europe

[kasia]

for a trip this summer - how much of a threat are they really?

[Craig]

I never had a problem with them (never tried to avoid them), maybe I just mistook them for Middle Easterners when I was in Europe. They should be physically distinct being of mainly South Asian heritage, ... and I don't think I stuck out too much. Lots of different Asians (and Middle Easterners & Africans, even some Hispanics) in many of the major cities in Europe (remember seeing countless Japanese tourists). Software engineers are known for dressing down, so maybe if they go after East Asians, the Japanese tourists would be easy and plentiful pickings.

[haplesshobo]

for a trip this summer - how much of a threat are they really?

This has to be a joke, right?

[ism]

for a trip this summer - how much of a threat are they really?The Roma people generally don't appreciate that stereotype.

[CBC guy]

Went to Europe numerous times, never had a problem, just be careful... however, the Ramblas in Barcelona is notorious for pickpockets, as is the Trevi Fountain in Rome. Southern Europe (ie, Mediterranean Europe) is slighlty more chaotic than the north (Scandinavia, Germany, UK) but its not a big problem, really. Keep your wits about you and you'll be fine.

And yes, the Japanese tourists are among the easiest targets as they tend to stick out really easily AND they are percieved as being naive.

[AngryABCGirl]

Been to Europe too, just saw a few passive beggars. There's plenty of other non-Roma crooks.

[kasia]

The Roma people generally don't appreciate that stereotype.

okay, you'll have to say more. do they not appreciate being labelled as "gypsies" or do they not appreciate the stereotype of being thieves? i know groups in CA that refer to themselves as gypsies, which is why i didn't know the term itself is deragatory.

[AngryABCGirl]

What countries are you going to? The Nordic countries and most of England is generally tame. Spain, France, and Italy are a bit more trouble in my experience (a lot more panhandlers and a lot of my fellow backpackers got mugged), and I've heard bad things about Eastern Europe.

[kasia]

Spain, France, and Italy. haha. which is probably why i've been hearing horror stories.

[Flow to Live]

duuude, I always wanted to go to Europe.

take me with you and i'll protect you :]

[YelloFello]

Unfortunately, the word 'Gypsy' has become generic and some people don't realize the connotations behind the term. In the true sense of the word, it has a history of oppression associated with it. The clergy of the time imposed the term 'Gypsy' on the Roma people. It means 'unclean' - a reference to the people's religious beliefs.

The real Gypsies are not some group of random individuals with shared interests. They are an actual ethnic group with distinct language (Romani), cultural and religious traditions. They are poor and are treated as outcasts and second-class citizens, so it wouldn't be surprising if many of them resorted to theft for a living.

The Roma have been referred to as the forgotten victims of the holocaust. Most sources I've seen claim that the Nazis killed half a million Gypsies. Still today, the Roma are perhaps the most hated and persecuted minority in Eastern Europe.

... just wanted to provide some historical background on the Roma for those who may not be too familiar with who the real Gypsies are.

[Chooky]

for a trip this summer - how much of a threat are they really?

I actually live in a neighbourhood that has a large percentage of Gypsies but I've never had any problems. My area has a fairly bad reputation for crime in general but compared to the bad neighbourhoods in cities in the U.S it seems relatively tame.

[AngryABCGirl]

Spain, France, and Italy. haha. which is probably why i've been hearing horror stories.

My fellow backpackers who got robbed mostly had their bags taken from them, some forcibly. None of them were robbed by gypsies though, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were robbed by poor Eastern European migrants.

I would say most of developed Europe isn't nearly as rough as say, many parts Los Angeles. But in LA you don't really have to worry about people on motorscooters ripping off your purse.

[Yeahman]

Unfortunately, the word 'Gypsy' has become generic and some people don't realize the connotations behind the term. In the true sense of the word, it has a history of oppression associated with it. The clergy of the time imposed the term 'Gypsy' on the Roma people. It means 'unclean' - a reference to the people's religious beliefs.

The real Gypsies are not some group of random individuals with shared interests. They are an actual ethnic group with distinct language (Romani), cultural and religious traditions. They are poor and are treated as outcasts and second-class citizens, so it wouldn't be surprising if many of them resorted to theft for a living.

The Roma have been referred to as the forgotten victims of the holocaust. Most sources I've seen claim that the Nazis killed half a million Gypsies. Still today, the Roma are perhaps the most hated and persecuted minority in Eastern Europe.

... just wanted to provide some historical background on the Roma for those who may not be too familiar with who the real Gypsies are.
I've never heard anyone use the term in any other way than in the manner you describe.

My friend had her pursue stolen in Rome. In a church, no less. While I was there, there was actually a public campaign to educate tourists in common tactics used by gypsies.

[kasia]

^ right. i probably sound pretty ignorant by now, but would you say my first comment was akin to asking if tourists should be wary of blacks when they come to l.a.? i seriously thought it was part of the gypsy culture...especially since i saw one family use the cultural defense in court.

[LaiSteve66]

^ right. i probably sound pretty ignorant by now, but would you say my first comment was akin to asking if tourists should be wary of blacks when they come to l.a.? i seriously thought it was part of the gypsy culture...especially since i saw one family use the cultural defense in court.

I don't know if this is true but I heard that there's some kind of religious belief that when God created the earth, He gave land to everyone except for the Roma, therefore they have to steal to survive (or entitled to or something along those lines).

I don't know how valid that is, I just remember hearing something like this on TV a number of years ago.

[AngryABCGirl]

^ right. i probably sound pretty ignorant by now, but would you say my first comment was akin to asking if tourists should be wary of blacks when they come to l.a.? i seriously thought it was part of the gypsy culture...especially since i saw one family use the cultural defense in court.

Yeah a bit, granted I think gypsies have an even worse rep. I actually have a lot of friends who ask me questions about visiting about the US like that about Black people, and it really irritates me considering I've spent a lot of my life with a lot of upper-middle class Black people, including a neighbor.

I think there are plenty of Roma people who are settling in Europe with professional jobs, but a lot living in poverty and arguably an impoverished culture of survival after centuries of discrimination and being ostracized from society, including segregated schools.

[Craig]

68% of Italians want Roma expelled - poll

· Government accused of stoking racial tension
· Yobs boast of ethnic cleansing after attacks

* Tom Kington in Rome
* Saturday May 17 2008

This article appeared in the Guardian on Saturday May 17 2008 on p30 of the International section. It was last updated at 09:44 on May 17 2008.
Firefighters inspect the remains of a Gypsy camp set alight in Naples

http://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/05/16/naples460x276.jpg

Firefighters inspect the remains of a Gypsy camp set alight in Naples after a resident was accused of trying to abduct a baby. Photograph: Salvatore Laporta/AP

Sixty-eight per cent of Italians, fuelled by often inflammatory attacks by the new rightwing government, want to see all of the country's 150,000 Gypsies, many of them Italian citizens, expelled, according to an opinion poll.

The survey, published as mobs in Naples burned down Gypsy camps this week, revealed that the majority also wanted all Gypsy camps in Italy to be demolished .

About 70,000 Gypsies in Italy hold Italian passports, including about 30,000 descended from 15th-century Gypsy settlers in the country. The remainder have arrived since, many fleeing the Balkans during the 1990s.

Another 10,000 Gypsies came from Romania after it joined the European Union in January 2007, according to an Italian human rights organisation, EveryOne, part of the approximately half million Romanians believed to be in Italy.

Romanians were among the 268 immigrants rounded up in a nationwide police crackdown on prostitution and drug dealing this week, after new prime minister Silvio Berlusconi's likening of foreign criminals to "an army of evil".

But Romanian officials have sought to distinguish between the Romanians and Romanian Gypsies entering Italy.

Flavio Tosi, the mayor of Verona and a member of the anti-immigrant Northern League party, said his city had the biggest Romanian community in Italy, 7,000 strong, "working as builders, artisans and domestics. And they themselves say the Roma are a problem," he said.

In a second poll, 81% of Italian respondents said they found all Gypsies, Romanian or not, "barely likeable or not likeable at all", a greater number than the 64% who said they felt the same way about non-Gypsy Romanians.

Young Neapolitans who threw Molotov cocktails into a Naples Gypsy camp this week, after a girl was accused of trying to abduct a baby, bragged that they were undertaking "ethnic cleansing". A UN spokeswoman compared the scenes to the forced migration of Gypsies from the Balkans. "We never thought we'd see such images in Italy," said Laura Boldrini.

"This hostility is a result of the generally inflammatory language of the current government, as well as the previous one," said EveryOne director Matteo Pegoraro. "Italian football stars at Milan teams assumed to have Gypsy heritage, such as Andrea Pirlo, are now also the subject of threatening chants."

Commenting on the attacks in Naples, Umberto Bossi, the head of the Northern League party said: "People are going to do what the political class cannot."

The defence minister, Ignazio La Russa, said yesterday he would consider deploying soldiers to Italian streets to help fight crime, while a group of Bosnian Gypsies in Rome said they were mounting night guard patrols of their camp to defend against vigilante attacks.

Europe's leading human rights watchdog urged the government to prevent attacks on Roma communities. Christian Strohal, head of Vienna-based OSCE's Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights, said: "The current stigmatisation of Roma and immigrant groups in Italy is dangerous as it ... increases the potential for violence."

· This article was amended after publication on Saturday May 17 2008 to correct the figure in the eighth paragraph from 61% to 64%.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/17/italy?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront