Women and the "First Move"

[popculturepooka]

Sorry about the thread title. Didn't really know what to call it....

So, recently a group of my friends (male and female) and I had discussion (more like a heated arguement) about women (mainly American women) and their initial dating practices.

A white girl was complaing about not being able to get men (Asian in her case) in general. She then proceeded to say something to the effect of: "I don't like to make the first move, because if the guy give a good response I feel like he only will date me out of pity or something." She then says, "The ones I do end up usually tend to be losers. No good men for me!" She then pouts.
So we got her to talk more about that and again we came to the fact that she will never make the "first move", but she will throw him "signals". If he doesn't catch on to these "signals" he probably doesn't like her. So, essentially, all the guys she date are ones that make the first move on her.

Then all of the guys proceeded to absolutely DOGPILE on her about how if she wasn't willing to pursue what she wants then she really had no base to complain from. We also told her to quit will all that "signal" bs, and go and talk to him to let him know you are interested.

She said we were being "mean".
We said we were being truthful, and that she was being too whiny, and we actually just being good friends. I was happy to see it. That's what we do to other guys who bitch/whine about not being able to get any. Guys HAVE to take the initiative and move forward in America, or nothing gets done. So when we get tired or scared we kick each other's asses to get in gear. I do it to my friends all the time and they do it to me. She was whining so we had to kick her ass in gear.

Because, seriously, I don't think a lot of women realize how hard it is from men to have to constantly make the first move. ALL THE TIME. Some women are just ridiculous with their expectations of men being the aggressor; they are brutal.
If a dude had said that "I don't like to make the first move, because if the girl give a good response I feel like she only will date me out of pity or something", he'd be called a wuss by all and sundry; by family, friends, random strangers. EVERYBODY.

Do you (fellow YW'ers) think we were too hard on her? Or just have thoughts on the issue? Are we disregarding the fact that women are
"socially trained" (don't know how else to say it) to be the passive ones in the relationship and initiation of the relationship?

[thaite]

What 'signals' did she put out? Those signals are almost always subtle, and therefore likely not as obvious to guys as women think they are. When a guy takes a cue from a signal and makes a move, it's always a calculated risk. He knows he might be wrong, but he's going for it anyway.

This guy has/is either:
a) Dumb, or missed the signal; she's being too suble for what he needs.
b) caught the signal and miscalculated the risk.
c) caught the signal and is trying to ignore it, in which case she should move on.

I'm not a real big fan of being coy. If you like something, it makes more sense to me to just be upfront and say you're insterested and want to spend more time with that person and explore the possibilities. One moment of awkward rejection sure beats the hell out weeks or months of awkwardness and confusion.

[popculturepooka]

^ "Signals" like battering her eye lashes, flicking her hair, glancing at him then looking away shyly. The usual flirting techniques, I suppose.

The thing is, a lot of guys I know take that for "signs" of a girl being nervous or agitated, so that really isn't helping a guy out.

Girls need to be more direct. No guy I know of would be dissappointed if a girl took the initiative and asked him out.

[BillBlythe]

signals don't work because you don't know if they're just being nice. I read and have heard from many sources that guys mistaken being nice for romantic interest all the time and as a result get rejected more than they deserve.

i think sensitive guys usually want the girl to make the first move, while aggressive guys are more willing to take the initiative. And contrary to my personal feelings, I think guys really should be the ones to take the lead. It just makes more sense for some reason.

[DragonKnight]

i think sensitive guys usually want the girl to make the first move, while aggressive guys are more willing to take the initiative. And contrary to my personal feelings, I think guys really should be the ones to take the lead. It just makes more sense for some reason.
Social "standards". They suck imho.

I'm all for a woman making the first move. Shows she has initiative and those are the type of women I go for.

[kimpossible]

Question #1. Are you looking for female input as well?

Question #2. Why is she complaining that she can't get an Asian guy? Not terribly important but it has this weird customer service feel. Like, I want one NOW, why isn't everyone responding already?

Question #3. I get the feeling she isn't exactly hot stuff if she's the only girl in a pile of guys and still complaining she isn't getting enough male attention. Is she going to have to go the extra mile to get attention?

I find these necessary questions if we're going to generalize "women" from this one female.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

This is going to sound asswipish and selfish but I'd rather take the initiative usually because then I know for sure that at least I am interested in her. If a girl approaches me and I'm not interested it makes it much more uncomfortable for me...I'd rather risk rejection than have the really awkward moment of finding a nice way to reject someone. Getting rejected takes no effort but rejecting someone does.

[tommyhtown]

This is going to sound asswipish and selfish but I'd rather take the initiative usually because then I know for sure that at least I am interested in her. If a girl approaches me and I'm not interested it makes it much more uncomfortable for me...I'd rather risk rejection than have the really awkward moment of finding a nice way to reject someone. Getting rejected takes no effort but rejecting someone does.

Call me asswipish and selfish but I am in the same camp as you. And speaking of reading the wrong signals, there's no shame in that. As long as, one is not being rude or annoying then why not think that the girl might actually give you a greenlight to approach.

[contra_diction]

I take the signals as the first move. I wouldn't waste my time talking to a girl if I don't think she's interested. At the risk of sounding conceited (I promise I'm not!), I've never been wrong. Maybe I'm just better at picking up body language.

BillBlythe certainly has a point though in that many guys do mistake being nice for romantic interest. I suppose it comes with experience. The more you do it, the better at it you get... like anything.

[Sunflare]

One moment of awkward rejection sure beats the hell out weeks or months of awkwardness and confusion.

Thank you. You nailed it. Best advice I heard in this entire thread. Many girls like to just flirt and play hard to get, leading thre poor guy for weeks and months and put him through mental and emotional turmoil. Might as well cut the bullshit and make the first move at the start.

It is much better to cut to the chase from the early point in the relationship and tell the lady how you feel. It's easier to deal with the rejection when you express your feelings toward her from the get go.

It becomes harder to deal with possible rejection from postponing to making the first move by missing critical signals and clues .

If she rejects you then, after a long time with the stupid games it can hit you like a mack truck and put you in a tailspin, if you have no other prospective ladies in line waiting to get down with you.

[BillBlythe]

To bring the focus back to your friend, I think it should be noted that her being white adds another dimension to the issue because if she didn't already know then she should be made aware that Asian guys don't even ask Asian girls out, so good luck waiting for an Asian guy to ask her out.

[contra_diction]

To bring the focus back to your friend, I think it should be noted that her being white adds another dimension to the issue because if she didn't already know then she should be made aware that Asian guys don't even ask Asian girls out, so good luck waiting for an Asian guy to ask her out.

I do hope this was in jest, but I didn't see any lols or smilies...
I ask Asian girls out. Almost exclusively actually.

[Zdrav]

What if an army of dorks started aggressively pursuing her? Then she'd probably backtrack and say, "Well, I only want attractive guys to make the first move. The ugly ones can just go to hell for all I care."

[popculturepooka]

Question #1. Are you looking for female input as well?

Question #2. Why is she complaining that she can't get an Asian guy? Not terribly important but it has this weird customer service feel. Like, I want one NOW, why isn't everyone responding already?

Question #3. I get the feeling she isn't exactly hot stuff if she's the only girl in a pile of guys and still complaining she isn't getting enough male attention. Is she going to have to go the extra mile to get attention?

I find these necessary questions if we're going to generalize "women" from this one female.

1) Yes, I was looking for any and all input. I just put in mens 'cuz I figured mostly men would respond. You can move it if you feel that's appropriate.

2) Well, we are in Japan, it's mostly just Asian guys and a couple foreign men.She's into Asian men in general, she told me she dated them back in America and I have no reason to not believe her... Maybe an Asiaphile, I don't really think so, but whatever. But, let's be honest, a lot of foreign men don't come to Japan to date foreign women. We are all Americans though (of varying ethnicities), and we were talking about how she can't really bitch about her having to make the first move in Japan since we've been doing that most of our dating lives back in America. It was part "Hahahahah, the tables are turned now!". Part we actually wanted to help her. And part we wanted her to see our side. I'll admit it.


3) Lol, I suck at explaining things. There were other girls there too, but they kind of just interjected the "Nooooo!!! That's not how it isss!!!" but gradually got quieter as we dogpiled. I felt kinda bad about it afterwards, but hey, that's what us guys do amongst ourselves. She's decent looking; blonde hair, blue eyes. Definetly not ugly.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

What if an army of dorks started aggressively pursuing her? Then she'd probably backtrack and say, "Well, I only want attractive guys to make the first move. The ugly ones can just go to hell for all I care."

Not that persistence works on all or even most women, but what you suggested is a bit of a paradox since the dorks are the least likely to be the aggressive ones. To some women persistence is what makes some guys attractive, and dorks are not attractive to them partially because of their lack of persistence.

[popculturepooka]

I take the signals as the first move. I wouldn't waste my time talking to a girl if I don't think she's interested. At the risk of sounding conceited (I promise I'm not!), I've never been wrong. Maybe I'm just better at picking up body language.

BillBlythe certainly has a point though in that many guys do mistake being nice for romantic interest. I suppose it comes with experience. The more you do it, the better at it you get... like anything.

I guess the question is...would you appreciate it if more girls started to make concious decisions to walk up to a guy and ask him out?

I'm not really trying to sound concieted either, but I really don't have problems with girls (as I have a girlfriend right now). It just annoys me sometimes that it's always up to me (as a guy) to ask them out.

This is going to sound asswipish and selfish but I'd rather take the initiative usually because then I know for sure that at least I am interested in her. If a girl approaches me and I'm not interested it makes it much more uncomfortable for me...I'd rather risk rejection than have the really awkward moment of finding a nice way to reject someone. Getting rejected takes no effort but rejecting someone does.

Doesn't it take effort for you to actually ask them out? Or are you that much of a stud?

Call me asswipish and selfish but I am in the same camp as you. And speaking of reading the wrong signals, there's no shame in that. As long as, one is not being rude or annoying then why not think that the girl might actually give you a greenlight to approach.

I would venture to say a lot of guys don't have that kind of courage, especially the "nice ones". They could always man up though!

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Doesn't it take effort for you to actually ask them out? Or are you that much of a stud?

Of course making the first move requires effort, but it's effort motivated by my already existing interest in that I've already decided she's someone I'm willing to risk rejection for based on whatever superficial qualities I notice in a span of a few minutes or seconds. On the other hand, making the effort to reject someone doesn't really carry any incentive except to get out of an awkward situation without feeling like too shitty or judgmental of a person.

It's like if you're out looking to buy something you want to go out and pick the product yourself even if in the end you might not be able to afford it or you might not end up with it even if you wanted it at first. You wouldn't want someone else to pick it for you (or the product to pick you, but that doesn't make sense) because the chances are higher that you might have something else in mind.

I would venture to say a lot of guys don't have that kind of courage, especially the "nice ones". They could always man up though!

It's not that nice guys happen to be cowardly, it's that the cowardly ones happen to be nice because being nice is the safest way to act around anyone, especially a woman, if you want to ensure that nothing will go terribly wrong. Coupled with the idea that people are automatically drawn to other people who are nice to them, the guys try to overcompensate by being super nice because they think the nicer they are the more people/women will be drawn to them.