The words "Orient" and "Oriental"

[PKoeut]

Yellow people, with cultural center found near the yellow river, next to the Yellow sea.. I don't think there's anything wrong with the word Yellow to refer to East Asians.

I want to take back Oriental as well. Neither should be seen as offensive.

In that case, we might as well call anyone who calls themselves caucasion, "black". After all, they claim their ancestry as being from the Caucasus mountains which borders the Black Sea.

It is connotation that makes "oriental" offensive.
Do euros call themselves "occidental"?
Why do they call us "oriental"?
What word do they use to describe themselves instead of "occidental"?
Why don't they just call us "easterner"?

"Oriental" implies "not normal". Most people who think a word isn't offensive only look at its denotation, never its connotation. To asian-amers who are 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or even 5th gen, of course being called "oriental" by euro-amers is offensive.... unless you're completely clueless.

[BeTheReds]

In that case, we might as well call anyone who calls themselves caucasion, "black". After all, they claim their ancestry as being from the Caucasus mountains which borders the Black Sea.

Whatever. My point is that Asians themselves call themselves Yellow.

On the word "Oriental"... in Britain anyway that's the socially acceptable term to refer to Yellow people. "Asian" usualy refers to South Asians. In the US however, "Asian" usually refers to East Asians, but only because Oriental isn't socially acceptable anymore. Why not?


It is connotation that makes "oriental" offensive.
Do euros call themselves "occidental"?
No, because there is a name for the landmass that they inhabit... "Europe" If there were a name for the landmass that Yellow people come from, such as "The Far East" (which is a term I hate...), "the Orient (which basically means "The East"... and Europe is often referred to as "The West")

Why do they call us "oriental"?
Because Asian simply isn't descriptive enough..

What word do they use to describe themselves instead of "occidental"?
White, Westerner, Western, ...

Why don't they just call us "easterner"?
They do... when they say Oriental.

"Oriental" implies "not normal". Most people who think a word isn't offensive only look at its denotation, never its connotation. To asian-amers who are 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or even 5th gen, of course being called "oriental" by euro-amers is offensive.... unless you're completely clueless.

Give me a good reason. The only reason I can fathom is that people say it has negative implications but can't tell me what those are. The US is too hung up on being PC.

I have to ask how one is supposed to translate 東洋　and 東洋人? These are words that East Asians use to refer to themselves in East Asian languages.

SWK suggested "Eastern" and "Easterner" but most dictionaries list "Orient" and "Oriental" as the definition.

Finally the word orient doesn't mean east when it is a verb. It means to point yourself toward something. China and the Asian region are going to rise in this century. Certainly the world will be pointing toward the orient... They will be "Orienting themselves to the Orient".. Pretty nifty eh?

[SunWuKong]

I have to ask how one is supposed to translate 東洋　and 東洋人? These are words that East Asians use to refer to themselves in East Asian languages.

wait, i've never actually heard or read that term used in Chinese. i googled it up and it seems that in Chinese, 東洋 and 東洋人 are older or uncommon terms used to refer to Japan and the Japanese. which would actually make sense because in relations to China, the Japanese came from the ocean to the east.

in Chinese, terms like 亞洲人 or 東亞人 are used. i thought you were just making the term 東洋人 up when you mentioned it, because 西洋 translates as "Western".

[tripostrophe]

BTR, you're ridiculous :P

I totally disagree with your logic, but points anyways

[Yeahman]

I have no problem with words that have already been reclaimed like "yellow." But, it's premature for "oriental."

I converse in American English, not British English. OK, so I won't get offended if someone calls me "oriental" in England. They also use "fag" in a non-offensive manner too. I hope you aren't suggesting that Americans can apply your logic with that word.

I have to ask how one is supposed to translate 東洋　and 東洋人? These are words that East Asians use to refer to themselves in East Asian languages.

SWK suggested "Eastern" and "Easterner" but most dictionaries list "Orient" and "Oriental" as the definition.
But it literally means "Eastern." It can be translated as both oriental and Eastern. How would you translate 西洋? Besides, as with the British use, benign East Asian use doesn't make it non-offensive in the US.

[SunWuKong]

I'm gonna agree with everyone who's saying that it's an offensive term. Not sure how I feel about the concept of reclaiming it. Regardless, I don't think this means we should ditch YW for another forum when we already have a pretty strong community base here for education and support. Especially looking around at some of the other, less progressive forums..ick.

i think part of the reason dear webmaster chose the domain name was because the term "yellow" has been used as an offensive term for Asian people. so it's part reclamation and part reminder that Asians have been discriminated against in the US.

now i understand people take offense to using "yellow" to refer to Asian people, and i personally don't use it myself. but i want to clear something up, in case some people do not know. at least in Chinese culture, the colour yellow has been a revered colour.
1) it is the colour of royalty.
2) the name of the mythical founder of the Chinese people is literally translated as the "Yellow Emperor".
3) the Yellow River is usually considered the birthplace of the Chinese civilisation.

[AngryABCGirl]

Give me a good reason. The only reason I can fathom is that people say it has negative implications but can't tell me what those are. The US is too hung up on being PC.


Back in the day around the 1960 movements for ethnic studies, I think it was more about not using a lump term given by outsiders to the then mostly native born Asian populations that was essentially alienating and foreign and using terms like Chinese American, Japanese American, or Asian American that don't imply foreign-ness especially by the post-internment generation. It's also the implication that the West, or I think specifically former colonizing countries got to label the world in accordance I think specifically Britain as Far East or Orient of Britain while Asia doesn't have that connotation.

But in anyway case though it's not really the word Yellow or Oriental that really matters, but the perogative of whose saying that. I think Political Correctness really loses sight of all of this because the whole point of it is to critique the racist thinking behind derogatory word rather than particular terms themselves. IE. if someone called you a stupid illiterate dog-eating oriental, saying that you are a stupid illiterate dog-eating Asian isn't better or worse. It's all about the intent to me.

[PKoeut]

Whatever. My point is that Asians themselves call themselves Yellow.

On the word "Oriental"... in Britain anyway that's the socially acceptable term to refer to Yellow people. "Asian" usualy refers to South Asians. In the US however, "Asian" usually refers to East Asians, but only because Oriental isn't socially acceptable anymore. Why not?

In french, as far as I can tell, a westerner is "occidental" and, of course, an easterner is "oriental". Perhaps the reason asians in britain aren't offended by that word is because they travel south a lot? Who knows.

But in ENGLISH, "oriental" is an outdated word, much like "occidental". There is no reason to use that word when you can just say "easterner". Anyone with a firm grasp of english and isn't clueless can tell you that.

No, because there is a name for the landmass that they inhabit... "Europe" If there were a name for the landmass that Yellow people come from, such as "The Far East" (which is a term I hate...), "the Orient (which basically means "The East"... and Europe is often referred to as "The West")

So you find the term "far east" offensive, but not "orient". Uhh...

Anyways...
...the landmass europeans inhabit is the same one that asians inhabit.
You do realize theres no body of water seperating the two, right?
So, I have no idea where your logic is coming from.

They do... when they say Oriental.

In that case, chink, gook, and nigger aren't offensive, right?
After all, they're basically saying asian, asian, and african.

If I started nicknaming you douchebag, would you be offended?
You shouldn't, because whenever I say douchebag, i'm pretty much saying BeTheRed.


Give me a good reason. The only reason I can fathom is that people say it has negative implications but can't tell me what those are. The US is too hung up on being PC.

I've already told you that "oriental" implies "not normal" in my previous post.
Its easy to tell when someone doesn't actually listen when they start rebuttaling with crazy logic.


I have to ask how one is supposed to translate 東洋　and 東洋人? These are words that East Asians use to refer to themselves in East Asian languages.

SWK suggested "Eastern" and "Easterner" but most dictionaries list "Orient" and "Oriental" as the definition.

Finally the word orient doesn't mean east when it is a verb. It means to point yourself toward something. China and the Asian region are going to rise in this century. Certainly the world will be pointing toward the orient... They will be "Orienting themselves to the Orient".. Pretty nifty eh?

I will say this again, most people that think a word isn't offensive only look at its denotation, never its connotation.

[BeTheReds]

In french, as far as I can tell, a westerner is "occidental" and, of course, an easterner is "oriental". Perhaps the reason asians in britain aren't offended by that word is because they travel south a lot? Who knows.

But in ENGLISH, "oriental" is an outdated word, much like "occidental". There is no reason to use that word when you can just say "easterner". Anyone with a firm grasp of english and isn't clueless can tell you that.

The problem there is that Easterner doesn't necesarily always mean a Yellow person. If someone says Oriental though, there's no doubt what they are talking about. If they say Asian, then there's still some kind of ambiguity as it depends on which kind of Asian that might mean.



So you find the term "far east" offensive, but not "orient". Uhh...


Well, what is the "Far East" far east of? It assumes that Europe is the center of the world. Nobody calls Europe the "Far West". But it's certainly far west of where I am right now.


Anyways...
...the landmass europeans inhabit is the same one that asians inhabit.
You do realize theres no body of water seperating the two, right?
So, I have no idea where your logic is coming from.


That's because you're just looking to argue. Yes, Eurasia is one landmass, I know. However, one part of it in the west is called Europe. Part of a large landmass is still a landmass. The Florida peninsula is a landmass connected to and part of the North American landmass. If I am using the world landmass incorrectly then I apologize. that's no point to argue though. The la.. excuse me, REGION which is inhabited by Europeans is called Europe. Thats why the people are called European. The region inhabited by mostly Yellow people is called East Asia, the Far East and the Orient, all of which aren't the best names for it because of PC reasons here or there. East Asia is the best term because it offends nobody, but in usage, nobody says something like.. "I'm an East Asian" or "East Asian-American".


In that case, chink, gook, and nigger aren't offensive, right?
After all, they're basically saying asian, asian, and african.

Those are offensive. They were created as a means to project hate upon those races or have since picked up harmful meanings. There's a huge difference between calling someone oriental and calling them a chink.


If I started nicknaming you douchebag, would you be offended?
You shouldn't, because whenever I say douchebag, i'm pretty much saying BeTheRed.

I'd be offended because douchebag was an existing insult, and even if it wasn't, douche + bag implies that it is a bag for douche water to be disposed of. That's not an endearing term. If you were to use a nickname like lord and master of all I wouldn't be offended. Oriental is in no way negative like "douchebag" is.


I've already told you that "oriental" implies "not normal" in my previous post.
how so?

Its easy to tell when someone doesn't actually listen when they start rebuttaling with crazy logic.

indeed.



But in anyway case though it's not really the word Yellow or Oriental that really matters, but the perogative of whose saying that. I think Political Correctness really loses sight of all of this because the whole point of it is to critique the racist thinking behind derogatory word rather than particular terms themselves. IE. if someone called you a stupid illiterate dog-eating oriental, saying that you are a stupid illiterate dog-eating Asian isn't better or worse. It's all about the intent to me.

Good call.

wait, i've never actually heard or read that term used in Chinese. i googled it up and it seems that in Chinese, 東洋 and 東洋人 are older or uncommon terms used to refer to Japan and the Japanese. which would actually make sense because in relations to China, the Japanese came from the ocean to the east.

in Chinese, terms like 亞洲人 or 東亞人 are used. i thought you were just making the term 東洋人 up when you mentioned it, because 西洋 translates as "Western".

Oh. Well it's probably a term invented by the Japanese to refer to Yellow people then. I just assumed it was Chinese, but I'll admit it when I am wrong. It's used in Korea and Japan to mean Oriental, but not in the negative connotations of the word.

In fact, in Japanese, "Asian" or 亜細亜人 has a connotation of backwardness. Recently however, the term, 東亜細亜人 or "East-Asian" has become popular, but when referring to Yellow people, 東洋人 is still the most common term.


1) it is the colour of royalty.
2) the name of the mythical founder of the Chinese people is literally translated as the "Yellow Emperor".
3) the Yellow River is usually considered the birthplace of the Chinese civilisation.

BAM BAM BAM!

BTR, you're ridiculous :P

I totally disagree with your logic, but points anyways

No problem with disagreeing...

I have no problem with words that have already been reclaimed like "yellow." But, it's premature for "oriental."

I converse in American English, not British English. OK, so I won't get offended if someone calls me "oriental" in England. They also use "fag" in a non-offensive manner too. I hope you aren't suggesting that Americans can apply your logic with that word.

Well I sincerely doubt even gay people would be offended if you were to refer to a cigarette as a fag. So go ahead and apply the logic with that word if you want to.

But it literally means "Eastern." It can be translated as both oriental and Eastern. How would you translate 西洋? Besides, as with the British use, benign East Asian use doesn't make it non-offensive in the US.

Oriental literally means "Eastern" too, and there's certainly less ambiguity involved. If I say I am Eastern to someone when I am in California, they will assume that I mean that I am from the East Coast. If I said I was Oriental, they know exactly what I mean.

I translate 西洋 as Western or Occidental.

[VV o n g B a]

logic-wise, i'd have to agree w/ btr on pretty much everything except the use of 東洋 as i've only heard 亞洲人 before.

oriental may mean eastern, but if u go back to the root of the word "asia," u find it also pretty much means east.

see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia#Etymology) and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia).

there's little logical reason not to use oriental except that it originally referred to ppl in the middle east and not east asians. that's about the strongest argument i can see as a reason not to try to reclaim the word. but then the word asia really only originally applied to ppl in asia minor and not asians in general. so either way, the original word was imprecise and now means something else.

the ultimate reason to try to reclaim oriental is that asian is simply not descriptive enough if u want to refer to yellow, golden, east asian, 東洋 or 亞洲 ppl in english. i actually kind of like yellow as that puts us squarely on par w/ black & white. golden seems a little too self-congratulatory. east asian is sub-optimal as it doesn't roll off the tongue very well. it also essentially means east easterner which is just stupid. 東洋 and 亞洲 would be great but i think getting ppl to switch to that would be even tougher than reclaiming oriental.

[AngryABCGirl]

I've never heard 東洋 or even read it in Chinese, I think it's mainly used in Japanese? It's usually references to 東方人 (eastern people) or 西方人(western people) in Chinese more than anything.

Either way, I'm okay with Asian or East Asian even. It's not as if desis don't say they're South Asia.

[BeTheReds]

logic-wise, i'd have to agree w/ btr on pretty much everything except the use of 東洋 as i've only heard 亞洲人 before.



As 東洋 is used in Japan and Korea, I assumed it also was used in China. That's my mistake. Anyone ever heard of TOYO tires? That's Oriental Tires!

Anyway I pretty much agree on everything else you've said. I can admit that perhaps oriental isn't the best word. Maybe we should invent a new word for the region and for the people.

[PKoeut]

The problem there is that Easterner doesn't necesarily always mean a Yellow person. If someone says Oriental though, there's no doubt what they are talking about. If they say Asian, then there's still some kind of ambiguity as it depends on which kind of Asian that might mean.

"Caucasian" doesn't mean a "white" person. But society has turned it so.

"Easterner" and "oriental" have the same denotation. And as WongBa said, "oriental" originally referred to people from the middle east. So how did "oriental" turn to mean a "yellow" person?

Well, what is the "Far East" far east of? It assumes that Europe is the center of the world. Nobody calls Europe the "Far West". But it's certainly far west of where I am right now.

Of course "far east" has a negative connotation to it. I didn't say it wasn't.

On that note, "oriental" is everything east of rome. "occidental" is west of rome. Since rome is in europe, these words still imply that europe is the center of the world.

That's because you're just looking to argue. Yes, Eurasia is one landmass, I know. However, one part of it in the west is called Europe. Part of a large landmass is still a landmass. The Florida peninsula is a landmass connected to and part of the North American landmass. If I am using the world landmass incorrectly then I apologize. that's no point to argue though. The la.. excuse me, REGION which is inhabited by Europeans is called Europe. Thats why the people are called European. The region inhabited by mostly Yellow people is called East Asia, the Far East and the Orient, all of which aren't the best names for it because of PC reasons here or there. East Asia is the best term because it offends nobody, but in usage, nobody says something like.. "I'm an East Asian" or "East Asian-American".

I've never heard someone say, "i'm european" in a practical conversation either. Not in the US atleast. Its always "i'm italian" or "i'm american" or "i'm part irish and french". The region is always a nation.
The only people who say "i'm asian" are asian-americans(i'm guilty of that). ...but there's an actual region labelled "asia". Theres no region labelled "orient".

So, how about this... if you don't like being called "asian" for one reason or another, then just say "i'm chinese" or "i'm part korean and japanese" or "i'm american". Why say you're from a unlabelled region at all?


Those are offensive. They were created as a means to project hate upon those races or have since picked up harmful meanings. There's a huge difference between calling someone oriental and calling them a chink.

Right. Its called connotation. Connotation doesn't just mean whats between the lines, it also means degree of positive and negative.

Here's an example:
"like" "love"
Both can mean the same thing.
But one has a much more positive connotation than the other.

Here's another example:
"borrow" "steal"
Both can mean the same thing.
The first is borderline negative(who likes to have their things borrowed?), while the other is very negative.


I'd be offended because douchebag was an existing insult, and even if it wasn't, douche + bag implies that it is a bag for douche water to be disposed of. That's not an endearing term. If you were to use a nickname like lord and master of all I wouldn't be offended. Oriental is in no way negative like "douchebag" is.

So you're offended by "far east", you're offended by "douchebag" even if it wasn't an existing insult, but you're not offended by "oriental". Ok.


how so?

The opposite of westerner is easterner.
The opposite of oriental is occidental.
English-speaking euros don't call themselves occidentals, they call themselves westerners.
They call us oriental, not easterner.

If someone asks, "what is one plus one", and I answer "deux", then then that is -not normal-. The answer is correct, but in no way shape or form is it normal.

Unless you start calling euros in english, "occidentals", and can get others to do it as well, then fat chance at "taking back oriental".
Kudos to the institutionalized racism in western society, though. They managed to get asians to call themselves "oriental" while at the same time calling euros "westerners".

[VV o n g B a]

pkoeut, i think u're missing our point. we're not advocating usage of oriental to replace asian. we're looking specifically for a word to replace "east asian" b/c we think the word asian is too broad. we're looking for an equivalent to desi. we have no particular love for the word oriental b/c we already know what it connotes, but we're suggesting that it might be possible to turn it's meaning b/c oriental isn't an epithet on the level of chink. i don't think anyone here is gonna say it hasn't been used to denigrate us before, but again... if u look at degree, oriental is less offensive even if it remains offensive. arguing that we want to be called oriental while euros want to be called westerners is a strawman argument b/c westerners isn't a racial term. westerner doesn't mean white. that's a very broad term that includes asian americans.

u gloss over the fact that we're not chained to using oriental. it's just that we're having a hard time coming up w/ a suitable alternative. we've looked at foreign wording from japan, korean and china. btr has even suggested using an entirely new word.

i can understand reluctance to being called oriental again b/c it took so long for us to get the word asian into popular usage. but asian itself is an overbroad term made up by europeans to cover a giant region full of very different ppl and cultures. it isn't useful as a term in many cases unless we put a cardinal direction modifier in front of it. that makes it unwieldy.

if u really want to argue to our point, please suggest a viable alternative to oriental / east asian / yellow.

[Chooky]

On the word "Oriental"... in Britain anyway that's the socially acceptable term to refer to Yellow people. "Asian" usualy refers to South Asians. In the US however, "Asian" usually refers to East Asians, but only because Oriental isn't socially acceptable anymore. Why not?


It's important to note that South Asians in Britain have defined THEMSELVES as "Asians". On the other hand, British East Asians (for want of a better descriptive) have been labelled "Oriental" by non-East Asians and refers to everyone originating in NE and SE Asia.

Defining their own agenda and identity (as separate from Britain's other minoritites) has given South Asians a strong political and social identity that provides a basis for a confident political voice. By contrast, East Asians seem to be almost invisible with the term Oriental being a passive label with the sole purpose of pointing out an individual's epicanthic folds. This is despite the fact that there were large Chinese communities in Britain at least 50 years before South Asians started to arrive in large numbers.

The term "Yellow", for me at least, always had a negative connotation. I'm not necessarily offended by it but I don't see the point of it's usage since it's a poor descriptive - for instance, I've never heard of a "Yellow" man/woman being sought by the police for any crime. So it's usage is always misrepresentative and typically disdainfully so if it's used to describe a race.

Maybe the issue isn't that AA's don't have an appropriate label but that they focus TOO much on what the label should be and not enough on a common agenda? South Asians are just as diverse as East Asians but our diversity seems to be a stumbling block.

[BeTheReds]

"Caucasian" doesn't mean a "white" person. But society has turned it so.

"Easterner" and "oriental" have the same denotation. And as WongBa said, "oriental" originally referred to people from the middle east. So how did "oriental" turn to mean a "yellow" person?


Well, for a complete history of the word, go read wikipedia. I'd imagine that it came to mean East Asia as more and more contact was made between Europe and Asia...


Of course "far east" has a negative connotation to it. I didn't say it wasn't.

On that note, "oriental" is everything east of rome. "occidental" is west of rome. Since rome is in europe, these words still imply that europe is the center of the world.


Well, yes, they do still imply that Europe is the center of the world, "The Orient" doesn't mean everything east of Rome anymore. It specifically means China, Korea, Japan, and maybe Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand and whatever.


I've never heard someone say, "i'm european" in a practical conversation either.
I have.

I've also heard "Let's go to Europe"... "Europe is a wonderful place to visit." "European wine is better than domestic wine."

Compare:

A: Let's go to Europe.
B: Yeah! Great Idea!

A: Let's go to Asia.
B. Do you mean East Asia, South Asia, or West Asia?
A: East Asia, er, well, I was talking about Japan, China and Korea.
B: Sounds great! Let's go!


Not in the US atleast. Its always "i'm italian" or "i'm american" or "i'm part irish and french". The region is always a nation.
The only people who say "i'm asian" are asian-americans(i'm guilty of that). ...but there's an actual region labelled "asia". Theres no region labelled "orient".


1. There's an actual region labeled Europe too, so I don't see where you are going with that.
2. There is a region labeled "the orient" but the term is no longer PC.


So, how about this... if you don't like being called "asian" for one reason or another, then just say "i'm chinese" or "i'm part korean and japanese" or "i'm american". Why say you're from a unlabelled region at all?


I'm not talking about personal identification stuff. I simply want a word to refer to all of East Asia as a distinct cultural area. (Much like the designation "Europe")


Here's an example:
"like" "love"
Both can mean the same thing.
But one has a much more positive connotation than the other.

I don't see where you're going with this.


So you're offended by "far east", you're offended by "douchebag" even if it wasn't an existing insult, but you're not offended by "oriental". Ok.


Hey man... Oriental simply means East. Far puts an adjective in there. East Asia (or the Orient) is neither far, nor east of me right now. However, I am on the Eastern part of a gigantic landmass.

All the PCism has made it such that "The Orient" is somehow offensive. (I'm not denying that it is... but certainly no one word bests it in functionality.)


The opposite of westerner is easterner.
The opposite of oriental is occidental.
English-speaking euros don't call themselves occidentals, they call themselves westerners.
Well, they used to just say Europe, but a word was necessary to include North America in there, thus "Western" came into popular usage. It has become so popular, that the meaning of "Western" and "Westerner" leave little ambiguity. Furthermore, those words aren't really used much, unless they are comparing something about Europe + North America to Africa, East Asia, South Asia, the Middle East, Latin America or some other cultural deliniation. Therefore, the opposite of Westerner is Non-Western.

Easterner means nothing. And it is confusing.

They call us oriental, not easterner.


And when they do that... there's almost no ambiguity as to what they mean.


If someone asks, "what is one plus one", and I answer "deux", then then that is -not normal-. The answer is correct, but in no way shape or form is it normal.


Huh? WTF are you talking about?


Unless you start calling euros in english, "occidentals", and can get others to do it as well, then fat chance at "taking back oriental".
Kudos to the institutionalized racism in western society, though. They managed to get asians to call themselves "oriental" while at the same time calling euros "westerners".

Well, I didn't ever claim that taking it back was going to be easy. I still feel uneasy using the word. My point is that we need one simple word to use to refer to "East Asia". The only one word that has even come close to this is "Oriental".

[PKoeut]

Well, for a complete history of the word, go read wikipedia. I'd imagine that it came to mean East Asia as more and more contact was made between Europe and Asia...

That was a rhetorical question. I gave the answer on the first line, second sentence.


Well, yes, they do still imply that Europe is the center of the world, "The Orient" doesn't mean everything east of Rome anymore. It specifically means China, Korea, Japan, and maybe Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand and whatever.

Well then "far east" doesn't mean east of europe. It simply means far eastern end of eurasia. Or more specifically, 'China, Korea, Japan, and maybe Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand and whatever.' So I still have no idea why you want to take back "oriental".


I have.

I've also heard "Let's go to Europe"... "Europe is a wonderful place to visit." "European wine is better than domestic wine."

Compare:

A: Let's go to Europe.
B: Yeah! Great Idea!

A: Let's go to Asia.
B. Do you mean East Asia, South Asia, or West Asia?
A: East Asia, er, well, I was talking about Japan, China and Korea.
B: Sounds great! Let's go!

When you gave the example of "Let's go to europe", did you think of russia or the ukraine?(eastern europe)?
Or did you just think UK, germany, italy, etc.(western europe)?
Why is it difficult to assume asia = east asia, but not difficult to assume europe = western europe?


All rhetorical questions, BTW.



1. There's an actual region labeled Europe too, so I don't see where you are going with that.
2. There is a region labeled "the orient" but the term is no longer PC.

Care to show me an english map that lists a region known as "the orient"?
I can show you plenty of maps that list a region known as "asia".


I'm not talking about personal identification stuff. I simply want a word to refer to all of East Asia as a distinct cultural area. (Much like the designation "Europe")

Lemme get this straight...
You're not talking about personal identification stuff, yet; you gave out examples such as "I'm an East-Asian" and "East-Asian American". ...which is exactly what I replied to. (WongBa, I can see why you think I'm using strawman logic if you've been agreeing with what BeTheRed says)

Anyways, as stated above, "europe" usually refers to western europe.
I'm perfectly fine with "asia" referring to eastern asia in the US, and south asia in the UK.
If they want more specifics or I want to be more specific, then I'm perfectly fine adding a direction before "asia".


I don't see where you're going with this.

Of course not. Just keep blaming PCism for words you don't personally find offensive, but are.

Hey man... Oriental simply means East. Far puts an adjective in there. East Asia (or the Orient) is neither far, nor east of me right now. However, I am on the Eastern part of a gigantic landmass.

All the PCism has made it such that "The Orient" is somehow offensive. (I'm not denying that it is... but certainly no one word bests it in functionality.)

^See Above


Well, they used to just say Europe, but a word was necessary to include North America in there, thus "Western" came into popular usage. It has become so popular, that the meaning of "Western" and "Westerner" leave little ambiguity. Furthermore, those words aren't really used much, unless they are comparing something about Europe + North America to Africa, East Asia, South Asia, the Middle East, Latin America or some other cultural deliniation. Therefore, the opposite of Westerner is Non-Western.

Easterner means nothing. And it is confusing.


You almost had a point with your first paragraph, but then you just lost it all with the followup.

Easterner means nothing and is confusing to who?
If you mean confusing to some people, then, by that logic, "oriental" means nothing and is confusing to some people as well. Guess we shouldn't use that word either, hmm?


Huh? WTF are you talking about?

If you keep taking quotes out of context and don't even know what you previously wrote, then of course you wouldn't know what I'm talking about.

You asked how does "oriental" imply "not normal".
I wrote,
"the opposite of westerner is easterner.
The opposite of oriental is occidental.
English-speaking euros don't call themselves occidentals, they call themselves westerners.
They call us oriental, not easterner.

If someone asks, "what is one plus one", and I answer "deux", then then that is -not normal-. The answer is correct, but in no way shape or form is it normal."

If you say it does imply "not normal", then there is no reason for me to label myself as one.
If you say it doesn't imply that, then give a good reason why not.

Now, your point above this pretty much reaffirms that "oriental" implies "not normal". Granted, it also implies everything that isn't "western" as "not normal".
But, see, the thing is... if you want some semblance of parity(that is, if you agree with WongBa's logic that "yellow" shouldn't be offensive because it puts us on par with "white" and "black"[terms of color in english]), your best bet is to call yourself "easterner". Because, in terms of direction in english, oriental isn't one.

Well, I didn't ever claim that taking it back was going to be easy. I still feel uneasy using the word. My point is that we need one simple word to use to refer to "East Asia". The only one word that has even come close to this is "Oriental".

...because "easterner" is confusing to you? Right?

---

I'm gonna go off point for a bit, cuz I wanna get this off my chest:
...whats with all the hate on the term "PC", anyways? It seems to be a popular thing nowadays.

It seems people always throw the 'don't be so PC' card after someone tries to correct them.

A: "There sure are a lot of indians in this store"
B: "They're not indians. They're native american"
A: "But thats the same thing!"
B: "Actually... <insert educational response here>
A: "WTF? Don't be so PC!"

A: "There sure are a lot of negros in this store"
B: "They're not negros. They're black."
A: "But thats the same thing!"
B: "Actually... <insert educational response here>
A: "WTF? Don't be so PC!"

I wouldn't be surprised if, a few generations from now, the term "PC" turns into a slang, and the political part gets knocked off. "PC" will then be a generic insult to call a person that tries to correct the other person:

A: "1 + 1 = 3"
B: "Its actually 2. <insert educational reasons here>"
A: "WTF? Don't be such a PC!"

I always thought education was only uncool when you're a teenager. I didn't realize people are starting to frown upon it as an adult.

[BeTheReds]

Well then "far east" doesn't mean east of europe. It simply means far eastern end of eurasia. Or more specifically, 'China, Korea, Japan, and maybe Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand and whatever.' So I still have no idea why you want to take back "oriental".


Yes, Far East does mean east of Europe, because of the qualifier "Far". As that is the only place it is far East of. Any further west and it's closer to go there by traveling west. Sure it means the region in question, but it's still meaning far east of Europe. Oriental (at least in its original form means East. East Asia is on the east of Asia.) I don't really care if we use Orient to describe that. My point is that it is the least Eurocentric of terms that leaves little ambiguity with the exception of "East Asia". And I don't like East Asia because I feel the region has enough cultural significance to stand on its own as something. (Much in the same manner as Europe, as certainly Europe is part of the same landmass, yet gets its own delineation as a continent.)



When you gave the example of "Let's go to europe", did you think of russia or the ukraine?(eastern europe)?
Or did you just think UK, germany, italy, etc.(western europe)?
Why is it difficult to assume asia = east asia, but not difficult to assume europe = western europe?


Well, because Europe is more than just Western Europe, and Asia is more than East Asia. While I concede the point that When people talk about "Europe", they mean Western Europe but that's irrelevant.





Care to show me an english map that lists a region known as "the orient"?[quote]
Care to show me one that lists Western Europe as "Europe" and Eastern Europe as "Eastern Europe?"

[quote]
I can show you plenty of maps that list a region known as "asia".


So what? Can you show me one that has Asia in there referring only to East Asia? No. Asia is too broad.


Lemme get this straight...
You're not talking about personal identification stuff, yet; you gave out examples such as "I'm an East-Asian" and "East-Asian American". ...which is exactly what I replied to. (WongBa, I can see why you think I'm using strawman logic if you've been agreeing with what BeTheRed says)

Those were examples, and unfortunately the only ones I used at first. I already conceded that I should have included more than just that. My point is that Asia isn't descriptive enough to refer to East Asia.


Anyways, as stated above, "europe" usually refers to western europe.
I'm perfectly fine with "asia" referring to eastern asia in the US, and south asia in the UK.


So then what do we call South Asians in the US then?


If they want more specifics or I want to be more specific, then I'm perfectly fine adding a direction before "asia".




Of course not. Just keep blaming PCism for words you don't personally find offensive, but are.


It's not that I don't understand why it is offensive. I do. The reason why it is offensive is that it adds a sense of exoticism to the region based on tired stereotypes from the time when there was little or no contact between Asia and the West. But at the base root of the word, it simply means the East. Therefore I think it is a candidate to be taken back. If not, suggest another single word to describe East Asia.



Easterner means nothing and is confusing to who?
If you mean confusing to some people, then, by that logic, "oriental" means nothing and is confusing to some people as well. Guess we shouldn't use that word either, hmm?


Well everyone besides you I guess. Oriental isn't confusing to anyone. Practically everyone knows what it means.

Okay maybe that's talking in extremes, but if the majority of people accept a word to mean something, then that's what it means. It really doesn't matter that a small minority don't know.

In the case of Easterner, I can't really recall any one time that anyone has ever used that to refer to East Asians.




You asked how does "oriental" imply "not normal".
I wrote,
"the opposite of westerner is easterner.
The opposite of oriental is occidental.
English-speaking euros don't call themselves occidentals, they call themselves westerners.
They call us oriental, not easterner.


I still don't see how it implies non-normal. Your argument makes no sense. Maybe I am a moron. Please clarify how Oriental = Not normal.


If you say it doesn't imply that, then give a good reason why not.


You still haven't given a reason as to why it does imply that. The onus is on you, not me.



...because "easterner" is confusing to you? Right?


Westerner means someone who is from Europe or North America because it's commonly accepted that the WEST refers to Europe and North America.

Southerner means someone from the Southern Region of the US.

Northerner means someone from the Northern Region of the US.

Easterner could mean any number of things, but hasn't been commonly accepted to mean anything, so its meaning must be taken in context.

Which region of the US are you from? I am an Easterner.

Where will you go to travel? The East! Oh, New York? Philly? No, Tokyo. OH! You meant East Asia I see.

Where will you go to travel? The Orient. Ah, I see.

Anyway I think the argument is tired. All I want is one word to refer to East Asia. In the past Orient has sufficed. It now no longer does because it's offensive. Fine. Suggest another word.

Thanks..

-

[PKoeut]

Yes, Far East does mean east of Europe, because of the qualifier "Far". As that is the only place it is far East of. Any further west and it's closer to go there by traveling west. Sure it means the region in question, but it's still meaning far east of Europe. Oriental (at least in its original form means East. East Asia is on the east of Asia.) I don't really care if we use Orient to describe that. My point is that it is the least Eurocentric of terms that leaves little ambiguity with the exception of "East Asia". And I don't like East Asia because I feel the region has enough cultural significance to stand on its own as something. (Much in the same manner as Europe, as certainly Europe is part of the same landmass, yet gets its own delineation as a continent.)

"Far" has nothing to do with whether or not its eurocentric.
If "the orient" means on the east of asia, then "far east" means on the far side of the east.(the non-eurocentric qualifier here is "on", and can be used for both)
If "far east" means far east of europe, then "the orient" means east of europe.(the eurocentric qualifier here is "of", and can be used for both)
So which one is it? You can't be selective about it.

Well, because Europe is more than just Western Europe, and Asia is more than East Asia. While I concede the point that When people talk about "Europe", they mean Western Europe but that's irrelevant.

My point was you gave no context and automatically made your example one-sided.

If you assume "western europe" from just "let's go to europe", then the context can be anything from tourist/vacation destination to ancestry. Since you gave no indication of who said "let's go to europe", I would assume the context is tourism. Western europe simply has more tourism than eastern europe.

So if the context is tourist/vacation destination, then "asia" would imply "east asia". East asia has more tourism than south and west asia.





Care to show me one that lists Western Europe as "Europe" and Eastern Europe as "Eastern Europe?"

So what? Can you show me one that has Asia in there referring only to East Asia? No. Asia is too broad.

First of all, why did you split what I said out of context? I'm merging your rebuttals together.

Second of all, I was talking about how I labeled myself as "asian" because there's a region labeled "asia".

Third, eastern europeans and western europeans are labelled as european all the same.

Fourth, you said, "There is a region labeled "the orient" but the term is no longer PC."
I asked you to show me a region labeled "the orient".
I never said there was a region labeled "east asia".
(and yet, i'm the one accused of using a strawman.... riiiight)

You're not even following this argument, are you? You're taking things out of context and rebuttaling from there. Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing now?

Those were examples, and unfortunately the only ones I used at first. I already conceded that I should have included more than just that. My point is that Asia isn't descriptive enough to refer to East Asia.

And somehow, "europe" is descriptive enough to refer to "western europe" in your next set of examples.

Oh, right. Its called context.

So then what do we call South Asians in the US then?

How nice of you to take quotes out of context. Here's the full quote that you split up:


"Anyways, as stated above, "europe" usually refers to western europe.
I'm perfectly fine with "asia" referring to eastern asia in the US, and south asia in the UK.
If they want more specifics or I want to be more specific, then I'm perfectly fine adding a direction before "asia"."

----------

It's not that I don't understand why it is offensive. I do. The reason why it is offensive is that it adds a sense of exoticism to the region based on tired stereotypes from the time when there was little or no contact between Asia and the West. But at the base root of the word, it simply means the East. Therefore I think it is a candidate to be taken back. If not, suggest another single word to describe East Asia.

Your argument makes no sense. Maybe I am a moron. Please clarify how "oriental" adds a sense of exoticism.

Mimicry aside, is "gook" a candidate to be taken back, too? I hear its just a root word of "hanguk", meaning "country", in korean. Theres a similar word for "guk" in chinese and other countries around there as well.
OH! Hey, there's a single word to describe "east asia". "Gook". Perfect. Don't be selective now! Go ahead and call yourself and others from there a "gook". Remember, you're only taking it back!

Well everyone besides you I guess. Oriental isn't confusing to anyone. Practically everyone knows what it means.

Okay maybe that's talking in extremes, but if the majority of people accept a word to mean something, then that's what it means. It really doesn't matter that a small minority don't know.

In the case of Easterner, I can't really recall any one time that anyone has ever used that to refer to East Asians.

Well the majority of people accept that "oriental" implies "not nor-" i mean "exotic". Yet, you want to drop that meaning.

So why are you so adamant about not changing "easterner", but perfectly fine with trying to change "oriental"?


I still don't see how it implies non-normal. Your argument makes no sense. Maybe I am a moron. Please clarify how Oriental = Not normal.

You still haven't given a reason as to why it does imply that. The onus is on you, not me.

I was trying so hard not to use common things that people automatically accept without giving much thought. Since you seem to only accept common, one word definitions and implications, then i'll give you just that:

"Oriental" implies "exotic".

That common and singular enough for you to understand without further explanation? What did you think "exotic" meant anyways?


Westerner means someone who is from Europe or North America because it's commonly accepted that the WEST refers to Europe and North America.

Southerner means someone from the Southern Region of the US.

Northerner means someone from the Northern Region of the US.

Easterner could mean any number of things, but hasn't been commonly accepted to mean anything, so its meaning must be taken in context.

Which region of the US are you from? I am an Easterner.

Where will you go to travel? The East! Oh, New York? Philly? No, Tokyo. OH! You meant East Asia I see.

Where will you go to travel? The Orient. Ah, I see.

Anyway I think the argument is tired. All I want is one word to refer to East Asia. In the past Orient has sufficed. It now no longer does because it's offensive. Fine. Suggest another word.

Thanks..

-

The word I've suggested is "easterner". Don't like it because it hasn't been fully established? Stick to "east asia" then. Prefer to be called "oriental" because its singular and common? One step forward, one step back.

Oh, and everything must be taken within context. Do you sometimes take things out of context and go from there? Rhetorical question, BTW.

Its easy for an argument to go out of context when the first and current posts are days apart. Because of that, I usually piece together previous posts and reread them so as to not make that mistake. And when doing all of that takes over an hour, thats when I call it quits.

You can have the last argument. I call it quits.

Can't even edit my post? Thats lame.

"Far" has nothing to do with whether or not its eurocentric.
If "the orient" means on the east of asia, then "far east" means on the far side of the east.(the non-eurocentric qualifier here is "on", and can be used for both)
If "far east" means far east of europe, then "the orient" means east of europe.(the eurocentric qualifier here is "of", and can be used for both)
So which one is it? You can't be selective about it.

What I meant was:

The non-eurocentric qualifier is "of asia/east".
The eurocentric qualifier is "of europe"

[bluemonq]

Some correcti- I mean, opportunities to educate people here.
When you gave the example of "Let's go to europe", did you think of russia or the ukraine?(eastern europe)?
Or did you just think UK, germany, italy, etc.(western europe)?
Why is it difficult to assume asia = east asia, but not difficult to assume europe = western europe?
Maybe you've heard of something called the "Cold War" and the "Warsaw Pact" and even the relationships between what is now called Eastern Europe and what used to be the Soviet Union, hmm? That the massive Soviet Union wasn't entirely considered part of Europe, hmm? And that most of that generation is still around, hmm?

I'm gonna go off point for a bit, cuz I wanna get this off my chest:
...whats with all the hate on the term "PC", anyways? It seems to be a popular thing nowadays.

It seems people always throw the 'don't be so PC' card after someone tries to correct them.

A: "There sure are a lot of indians in this store"
B: "They're not indians. They're native american"
A: "But thats the same thing!"
B: "Actually... <insert educational response here>
At which point I would say if I were 'A', Russell fucking Means, leader of the American Indian Movement finds Native American offensive.

I abhor the term Native American. It is a generic government term used to describe all the indigenous prisoners of the United States. These are the American Samoans, the Micronesians, the Aleuts, the original Hawaiians, and the erroneously termed Eskimos, who are actually Upiks and Inupiats. And, of course, the American Indian.

I prefer the term American Indian because I know its origins . . . As an added distinction the American Indian is the only ethnic group in the United States with the American before our ethnicity . . . We were enslaved as American Indians, we were colonized as American Indians, and we will gain our freedom as American Indians, and then we will call ourselves any damn thing we choose.

"I am an American Indian, Not a Native American!"
statement by Russell Means
And then 'B' would say, "B-b-but that's just Russell Means, you can't-" and I would backhand 'B' and say, "I pity the fool who doesn't respect Russell fucking Means!"

A: "There sure are a lot of negros in this store"
B: "They're not negros. They're black."
A: "But thats the same thing!"
B: "Actually... <insert educational response here>
A: "WTF? Don't be so PC!"
When was the last time you heard someone call someone a negro, pray tell? What was their age and background? Is the general intent of "negro", from its genesis, intended to offend, belittle, or otherwise portray inhuman characteristics? And then you are going to say, "But you took my quotes out of context; those are besides the poi-" at which point I would backhand you over the Internet if I could and say, "Fool, of course it's the point; if you're going to correct me on points like that, you're simply generalizing things yourself and it really doesn't make you any better than me. Every single example that you can bring up can be countered in a similar fashion." By the way, I'm not being argumentative, I'm being educational. So there.
If you assume "western europe" from just "let's go to europe", then the context can be anything from tourist/vacation destination to ancestry. Since you gave no indication of who said "let's go to europe", I would assume the context is tourism. Western europe

So if the context is tourist/vacation destination, then "asia" would imply "east asia". East asia has more tourism than south and west asia.
Actually, Romania and the Czech Republic are pretty hot tourist spots right now. This assumption is no longer valid. Also, take into consideration if they're "hitchhiking across Europe".

And somehow, "europe" is descriptive enough to refer to "western europe" in your next set of examples.
It isn't.

Your argument makes no sense. Maybe I am a moron. Please clarify how "oriental" adds a sense of exoticism.
Here's a homework assignment for you. Go online and find a university class listing that talks about feminism and Asian-Americans in America. Find the professor for that class. Ask him or her that question. They will be very happy to educate you on the history of the term 'oriental' and where the exoticism comes into play.

Mimicry aside, is "gook" a candidate to be taken back, too? I hear its just a root word of "hanguk", meaning "country", in korean. Theres a similar word for "guk" in chinese and other countries around there as well.
OH! Hey, there's a single word to describe "east asia". "Gook". Perfect. Don't be selective now! Go ahead and call yourself and others from there a "gook". Remember, you're only taking it back!
First, I don't know what you're talking about when you say that there's a similar word for "guk" in chinese. Please enlighten us all and tell us what this term is, in Pinyin or Chinese characters. Second, the pejorative term "gook" has always referred to Koreans. If they want to reclaim "gook", that's their business. Other Asians cannot "reclaim" "gook" because it was not used as a pejorative for them.
Well the majority of people accept that "oriental" implies "not nor-" i mean "exotic". Yet, you want to drop that meaning.

So why are you so adamant about not changing "easterner", but perfectly fine with trying to change "oriental"?
You talk a lot about connotations and modern usage, big preacher man, but you don't seem to understand the nuances of how "not normal" and "exotic are used today".

Oh and,

Q.E.D. YOU. ARE. A. RACIST. Good day, sir.
I refer to my original post here (http://forums.yellowworld.org/showpost.php?p=528635&postcount=4) for the rest of the text. It's more commentary about hypocrisy than racism, but it should make for an entertaining read.


Can't even edit my post? Thats lame.
Edits are limited to half an hour after the post. Be quicker next time.

[BeTheReds]

"Far" has nothing to do with whether or not its eurocentric.
If "the orient" means on the east of asia, then "far east" means on the far side of the east.(the non-eurocentric qualifier here is "on", and can be used for both)

Well, the Far East certainly isn't Far East From India now is it?

I am not going to dignify the rest of your post with a reply. It is inherently clear that you just want to argue with me, so much, that even when I agreed with you that "oriental" can be offensive, you tried to rebutt me and say that it wasn't. I'm not looking to argue.



Your argument makes no sense. Maybe I am a moron. Please clarify how "oriental" adds a sense of exoticism.



All things aside... I simply want one word to refer to East Asia that gives it its due place as a culturally significant region. That's all.

[VV o n g B a]

All things aside... I simply want one word to refer to East Asia that gives it its due place as a culturally significant region. That's all.amen to that. pkoeut, u seem not to understand our ultimate goal here. we've said again and again we know the word has bad connotations. we're not blind, deaf, and dumb. at most we're only 2 out of 3. we only made an argument for the unpc word b/c it seemed convenient. judging by ur reaction however, it would seem to be unacceptable to a certain number of east asians no matter how we try to explain.

[PKoeut]

I may have said BeTheReds can have the last word on our argument, but I never said I wouldn't reply to someone else. :wink:

Some correcti- I mean, opportunities to educate people here.

Maybe you've heard of something called the "Cold War" and the "Warsaw Pact" and even the relationships between what is now called Eastern Europe and what used to be the Soviet Union, hmm? That the massive Soviet Union wasn't entirely considered part of Europe, hmm? And that most of that generation is still around, hmm?

Are you being sarcastic and agreeing with me or are you arguing with me? I can't tell.

West and eastern europe as defined by the cold war:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Bloc

So, yea. The SU was a part of europe. Thanks for the heads up, I guess?


At which point I would say if I were 'A', Russell fucking Means, leader of the American Indian Movement finds Native American offensive.

And then 'B' would say, "B-b-but that's just Russell Means, you can't-" and I would backhand 'B' and say, "I pity the fool who doesn't respect Russell fucking Means!"

Again, are you arguing with me, or trying to add some extra knowledge into the mix?

Russell Means wants to be called "american indian". Apparently, being called "indian" so much by the euros fried his identity. I feel kinda bad for the actual indians... you know, the ones from india?

When was the last time you heard someone call someone a negro, pray tell? What was their age and background? Is the general intent of "negro", from its genesis, intended to offend, belittle, or otherwise portray inhuman characteristics? And then you are going to say, "But you took my quotes out of context; those are besides the poi-" at which point I would backhand you over the Internet if I could and say, "Fool, of course it's the point; if you're going to correct me on points like that, you're simply generalizing things yourself and it really doesn't make you any better than me. Every single example that you can bring up can be countered in a similar fashion." By the way, I'm not being argumentative, I'm being educational. So there.

Well the context is they're in a store. A person is calling people in that store "negros". The language they're using is english. Since I gave no date, you must assume its in the "present"(or rather, the date of the post). If the intent was offensive, then their racism was born from hate. If the intent was benign, then their racism was born from ignorance(would be a good example of how racism is insitutionalized). Regardless of the intent or date, theres no reason to use "negro" instead of "black", unless you're speaking spanish or portuguese. But it was already established that they spoke english.

So... no, you can't counter in a similar fashion. I know what you're trying to say, but context, or lack thereof, is what separates hypocrisy from... non-hypocrisy.

Actually, Romania and the Czech Republic are pretty hot tourist spots right now. This assumption is no longer valid. Also, take into consideration if they're "hitchhiking across Europe".

If, in the future, eastern europe overtakes all of west europe in the number of tourists present, the assumption that "europe" = "western europe"(in the context of tourism) will change into "europe" = "eastern europe". Regardless, more tourism occurs in western europe combined than eastern europe combined. Since you probably won't listen to me, I guess I'll have to provide reference:

weforum.org/en/initiatives/gcp/TravelandTourismReport/Infrastructure/index.htm
That report is from october 2007.

You can also google "tourism europe" and find many posts and articles by people that only refer to countries in west europe. Very few about eastern europe.

Oh, and I didn't realize "let's go to europe" had the context of "hitchhiking across europe". How did you figure that one out? Not rhetorical, but a genuine question.

It isn't.

Thanks for agreeing with me?


Here's a homework assignment for you. Go online and find a university class listing that talks about feminism and Asian-Americans in America. Find the professor for that class. Ask him or her that question. They will be very happy to educate you on the history of the term 'oriental' and where the exoticism comes into play.

Here's a homework assignment for you. Go online and find a university class listing that talks about linguistics. Find the professor for that class. Ask him or her about the word "oriental". They will be very happy to educate you on the etymology of the word. History can't touch linguistics when arguing about a word.

Mimicry aside, you didn't even realize I was imitating BeTheReads feigned ignorance when he said the same thing to "not normal", did you?
Infact, I even said I was mimicing him in the next sentence. But you just had to break up my quote, didn't you?

First, I don't know what you're talking about when you say that there's a similar word for "guk" in chinese. Please enlighten us all and tell us what this term is, in Pinyin or Chinese characters. Second, the pejorative term "gook" has always referred to Koreans. If they want to reclaim "gook", that's their business. Other Asians cannot "reclaim" "gook" because it was not used as a pejorative for them.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gook#G


You talk a lot about connotations and modern usage, big preacher man, but you don't seem to understand the nuances of how "not normal" and "exotic are used today".

I perfectly understand the nuance of the two.
I could've said "oriental" = "exotic", but thats common enough that it doesn't provoke any critical thinking.

A: "oriental" = "exotic"
B: Oh! College professors say exactly that, so I don't need to think. I can just nod my head!

It was obvious that BeTheReds didn't fully understand the word, or else he wouldn't have been so obstinate about taking back "oriental" and just shrugging off "easterner". His logic and reasoning had more holes than a box full of cheerios.


Edits are limited to half an hour after the post. Be quicker next time.

If you actually used your head before coming up with your arguments, one of the things you would've figured out was the time of my post and the time of the auto-merged doublepost. It was only 6 minutes apart. I'm not sure why I can't edit my post. I'm going to assume that priviledge is based on post count or rep.

But you probably won't listen to me anyways. I'm not a website, a college professor, or this forum's moderator.

amen to that. pkoeut, u seem not to understand our ultimate goal here. we've said again and again we know the word has bad connotations. we're not blind, deaf, and dumb. at most we're only 2 out of 3. we only made an argument for the unpc word b/c it seemed convenient. judging by ur reaction however, it would seem to be unacceptable to a certain number of east asians no matter how we try to explain.

I've kept dropping hints and nudging you guys about "easterner" instead of "oriental" since my first post. BeTheRed completely rejects it, and you seem to be ignoring it.

It would seem a certain number of east asians just want to be called "oriental".

[BeTheReds]

closing...

Thread split and reopened. This thread is about oriental, the other thread about yellow...

Oh by the way...

Care to show me an english map that lists a region known as "the orient"?


http://www.historicaltextarchive.com/images/maporien.gif

[J Honcanese]

^It's interesting that the map should have Manila at the centre. And the words "Manila, P.I." read as though the Philippines were a US state. Although I'm sure that by this time the Philippines was already coming under the US political sphere.

My view on the words "Orient" and "Oriental" differ according to their usage. I'm absolutely fine with the terms "The Orient" and "Far East" even if they do connote a distorted sense of exoticism. In fact, I'm not at all bothered when the word "Oriental" is used in the name of a firm or organisation. But it does irk me whenever it's used to describe people and cultures. I actually find it a lot more awkward and dated than the term "Yellow".

It's important to note that South Asians in Britain have defined THEMSELVES as "Asians". On the other hand, British East Asians (for want of a better descriptive) have been labelled "Oriental" by non-East Asians and refers to everyone originating in NE and SE Asia.

Defining their own agenda and identity (as separate from Britain's other minoritites) has given South Asians a strong political and social identity that provides a basis for a confident political voice. By contrast, East Asians seem to be almost invisible with the term Oriental being a passive label with the sole purpose of pointing out an individual's epicanthic folds. This is despite the fact that there were large Chinese communities in Britain at least 50 years before South Asians started to arrive in large numbers.I couldn't agree more. In Britain it doesn't matter if you're Chinese, Japanese, Thai or Filipino. You're just labeled as an "Oriental". There isn't a united voice among East Asians here and there certainly doesn't seem to be any sign of a movement for empowerment. And though the term "Oriental" is "socially acceptable" by British standards, it's not at all a label that is embraced by the East Asian community (if I can even call it that).

[Shiyuan]

I have a funny little fact that will turn this debate on its head.

Europe is the East, Asia's the West.

You see, the view that Europe is the "West" and Asia is the "East," is based on a European assumption of the world's geographical layout according to their own perceptions of how the Earth is oriented (full dirty pun intended) on its axis.

See, space is not oriented in anything resembling the N, S, E, W, compass that we go by. We don't know that the continents on the world map are actually "right side up," in the context of the universal position.

In fact, various maps of the world throughout the ages have had completely different orientations (someone stab me) for the continents. Heck even the modern Australian world map is the other way around, with what Europe considers North to be the South, and the rest vice-versa.

For an interesting look at such maps, here is a nifty link for your viewing pleasure: EDIT: Nevermind, I can't post links yet, darn, but just google Upsidedown Maps Page. : )

Being a History major can make me so dastardly sometimes... ; )

Oh yes, and Europe isn't really a continent, it should be a sub-continent, since India is actually bigger than all of Europe. Western cartographers are quite sneaky when they proportion those maps. ; D

[BeTheReds]

Interesting, but as far as the Eurasian continent goes, Europe is west, and Asia is everything east of that.