Gay fathers getting 4 kids [Archive]

Arex

06-26-2002, 01:03 AM

[quote:c9ea70120f="ImrkevinpakI"]I know they have a surrogate mother who will be giving the birth..but two dads and 4 kids..wow.[/quote:c9ea70120f]

Even though I think in an ideal world, every child would grow up with both a loving father AND mother, I really see nothing wrong with gay parents having children. There's no reason to assume that they're going to be any better or worse parents than any other couple.

Alex

ImrkevinpakI

06-26-2002, 02:27 AM

I was shocked, but i heard there were cases like these all over the world. I wasn't judging or making fun.

tapestrybabe

06-26-2002, 08:26 PM

[quote:eb5c9d7d79="Arex"]Even though I think in an ideal world, every child would grow up with both a loving father AND mother, I really see nothing wrong with gay parents having children. [/quote:eb5c9d7d79]

Yeah, I think gay parents are capable of raising children too. However, the way these men went about it, I don't support at all!! Me, I dont believe in the concept in the surrogate mothers... Women who produce babies... only to give it away to another... that just doesnt sound right to me.... children being used as commodities... I feel it becomes like a baby selling buisness..

Also, I think it undermines the adoption process too...

angelnympho

07-01-2002, 07:24 PM

[quote:936deace5f="Tapestrybabe"]Me, I dont believe in the concept in the surrogate mothers... Women who produce babies... only to give it away to another... that just doesnt sound right to me.... children being used as commodities... I feel it becomes like a baby selling buisness..

Also, I think it undermines the adoption process too...[/quote:936deace5f]

why not? i don't think surrogate mothers get paid, do they? I mean, I thought it was something they did out of the goodness of their heart. And what if you don't want to adopt because you want the child to have your genetic traits?

tapestrybabe

07-01-2002, 08:05 PM

[quote:4788e97915="angelnympho"]And what if you don't want to adopt because you want the child to have your genetic traits?[/quote:4788e97915]

so a parent should feel like that child is something less of their child if it didnt have their genetic traits as opposed as if they did?? C'mon, give me a freaking break!!! Parenthood isn't all about biology... cuz my adoptive parents that raised me... they're my REAL parents as opposed to my biological mother who just gave me up for what ever reason she had... And I'm just as much a child to my parents as my sister is.. who is the biological daughter of them...

angelnympho

07-01-2002, 10:38 PM

[quote:e8c37da4dd="Tapestrybabe"]so a parent should feel like that child is something less of their child if it didnt have their genetic traits as opposed as if they did?? C'mon, give me a freaking break!!! Parenthood isn't all about biology... cuz my adoptive parents that raised me... they're my REAL parents as opposed to my biological mother who just gave me up for what ever reason she had... And I'm just as much a child to my parents as my sister is.. who is the biological daughter of them...[/quote:e8c37da4dd]

no need to get worked up because, nope, i never said that. and i never said that being a biological child or an adopted child has any bearing on whether or not you're loved. all i said was that some parents would prefer one method over another. and if you really wanted to know my opinion, i think adopted kids are loved even more than biological ones.
but for those parents who are physically unable to have kids of their own... maybe they'd want to consider surrogate parenting. its an OPTION, juuuuust like adoption. i never said one was better than the other. its just nice to have both there.

tapestrybabe

07-01-2002, 10:58 PM

[quote:e48ce6ea01="angelnympho"]but for those parents who are physically unable to have kids of their own... maybe they'd want to consider surrogate parenting. its an OPTION, juuuuust like adoption. i never said one was better than the other. its just nice to have both there.[/quote:e48ce6ea01]

No freaking way man. In my opinion, using Surrogate mothers is NOT an option to grow a family!! It's a market, a commercialized buisness... and its a sale of a child. I see it all as disgraceful...

If gay or infertile couples wanna child.. either they adopt... or they just have to learn how to freaking deal... but than again, in a perfect world adoption wouldnt exist in the first place...

angelnympho

07-02-2002, 03:23 AM

[quote:f4f55eecef="Tapestrybabe"]No freaking way man. In my opinion, using Surrogate mothers is NOT an option to grow a family!! It's a market, a commercialized buisness... and its a sale of a child. I see it all as disgraceful...

If gay or infertile couples wanna child.. either they adopt... or they just have to learn how to freaking deal... but than again, in a perfect world adoption wouldnt exist in the first place...[/quote:f4f55eecef]

and AGAIN, i must add that i am highly certain that surrogate mothers do not get paid... it's something you offer to like, say, a relative, out of the goodness of your heart. how can you say its NOT an option? it IS an option, it may not be the BEST option in YOUR opinion, but people still DO it right? i dont see it as disgraceful at ALL, i see it as a medical breakthrough... but that doesnt mean its 100% the right way to go. stop assuming that i said that!!!
.. i'm trying real hard to respect your beliefs while having mine heard at the same time...

tapestrybabe

07-02-2002, 05:01 AM

[quote:f98d54204a="angelnympho"]i must add that i am highly certain that surrogate mothers do not get paid... it's something you offer to like, say, a relative, out of the goodness of your heart.[/quote:f98d54204a]

actually, they do get paid... and i see it as a highly commercialized buisness.... and i have zero tolerance for it... i see no pride in producing a baby, only in order to give it up to another....

deez nuts

07-02-2002, 06:57 AM

Gonna have to go with Tapastry Babe here. But it should be looked at a case by case basis. Some surrogate mothers do get paid (although in most likelihood it won't be disclosed).

Take for instance the fertility clinic. In the case of female egg donation going for at least 5000 dollars. Say for instance the female of a heterosexual couple has problems conceiving. The couple choses a donor type, the donated egg is then injected with the male sperm and implanted into the wife. The clinic charges xxxx amouint of dollars. So there are two monetary transactions here.

Take for instance a surrogate mother carrying a child of a hetero or gay couple regardless. Most surrogate pregnancies are not done the "old fashioned way." It is done in a lab, extracting both the egg and injecting the sperm into the egg and implanting it into the female. Again the clinic gets paid.

But surrogate mothers do get paid, some don't and do it for a friend or family member.

angelnympho

07-02-2002, 12:39 PM

what im saying is that in the cases when its done to help somebody out.. say a family member or friend... how can that be a "highly commercialized business of selling babies"? i'd do it for a friend.... uhh, wait no i take that back. but anyway...
so how can adoption (which is technically one mother giving her child up to not even another FAMILY.. but to an adoption agency) be SO MUCH BETTER than giving a child up to a family that genuinely wants to raise a child? at least this way they're absolutely certain that the child will be taken in by a family.. hey but im not knockin adoption at all.
and i always thought that surrogates dont choose doners n stuff. i thought they took the egg and sperm from the parents and joined them outside of a body and put em into somebody. *shrug* i dont really like the idea of doners n stuff, but im glad that the option is open for those who choose to take it.

its a lot like abortion. im against it completely, but i think its important to have the option there. you don't have to agree with it, but how can u be so quick to say that it shouldnt be offered???

kasia

07-02-2002, 06:33 PM

[quote:32ebd13eab="Arex"][quote:32ebd13eab="ImrkevinpakI"]I know they have a surrogate mother who will be giving the birth..but two dads and 4 kids..wow.[/quote:32ebd13eab]

Even though I think in an ideal world, every child would grow up with both a loving father AND mother, I really see nothing wrong with gay parents having children. There's no reason to assume that they're going to be any better or worse parents than any other couple.

Alex[/quote:32ebd13eab]

james dobson will tell you otherwise. and, despite my liberal beliefs, i am persuaded by his argument--which i won't go into b/c it will piss a lot of people off.

kasia

07-02-2002, 06:37 PM

[quote:09d689276d="Tapestrybabe"][quote:09d689276d="angelnympho"]but for those parents who are physically unable to have kids of their own... maybe they'd want to consider surrogate parenting. its an OPTION, juuuuust like adoption. i never said one was better than the other. its just nice to have both there.[/quote:09d689276d]

No freaking way man. In my opinion, using Surrogate mothers is NOT an option to grow a family!! It's a market, a commercialized buisness... and its a sale of a child. I see it all as disgraceful...

If gay or infertile couples wanna child.. either they adopt... or they just have to learn how to freaking deal... but than again, in a perfect world adoption wouldnt exist in the first place...[/quote:09d689276d]

personally, i agree with t-babe. there are enough children out there who need homes, and i would love to adopt a child even if i am able to have my own kids. however, that is just my personal opinion. and i can understand if some couples feel strongly about passing along their genes.

kasia

07-02-2002, 06:40 PM

[quote:e647b2fa05="angelnympho"]so how can adoption (which is technically one mother giving her child up to not even another FAMILY.. but to an adoption agency) be SO MUCH BETTER than giving a child up to a family that genuinely wants to raise a child? [/quote:e647b2fa05]

lol. that's not what t-babe meant.

she was saying that it would be much better for infertile couples to adopt from adoption agencies than to find a surrogate mother. the world would be a better place, that's for sure.

angelnympho

07-02-2002, 07:12 PM

sure the world would be a better place if every loving couple who wanted a child could take over for parents who don't ... but its not. and some people want to do things the way science will allow them to. i didnt say i agree with one way or another. im just happy that there's enough options out there for everybody to find their own way to deal.

deez nuts

07-03-2002, 05:08 AM

Medical science nowadays allows for more options and sometimes more options = more problems.

I personally have seen how surrogate motherhood has gone bad. My fourth year of med schhol during my ob/gyn rotations there was a gay couple who chose a surrogate mother. A lot of issues came up, the surrogate mother developed a bond with the unborn child (likely to happen during 9 months of pregnancy). She then felt that she should be compensated for her 9 months of trials and tribulations (I assume she was doing it as a favor). Then there was the issue of the incurring cost of pre-natal and establishment of payment of post-natal care. It was just one big mess. What happened in the end? From what I hear the child was given to the mother while the case is being brought up in court (this was 2 years ago). And who is the vicitim in all this? The child.

Professionally, I am neutral in regards to surrogate motherhood. Personally, I think too many things can go wrong and the child is left to suffer. Shrug.

Arex

07-03-2002, 10:58 PM

[quote:51ae07c42b="kasia"]james dobson will tell you otherwise. and, despite my liberal beliefs, i am persuaded by his argument--which i won't go into b/c it will piss a lot of people off.[/quote:51ae07c42b]

And why not share Mr. Dobson's opinion, even if it'll piss people off? Isn't that the point of these boards--to share different, and often times opposing, points of view?

Alex

kasia

07-04-2002, 09:52 PM

[quote:50a2842d51="Arex"][quote:50a2842d51="kasia"]james dobson will tell you otherwise. and, despite my liberal beliefs, i am persuaded by his argument--which i won't go into b/c it will piss a lot of people off.[/quote:50a2842d51]

And why not share Mr. Dobson's opinion, even if it'll piss people off? Isn't that the point of these boards--to share different, and often times opposing, points of view?

Alex[/quote:50a2842d51]

well, james dobson basically feels that the ideal home should have both a mother and a father. he believes that a mothers and fathers play very distinct roles. i tend to agree, but at the same time, i don't want to offend any homosexual couples--also, my mind isn't completely made up on this issue. the flip side of the argument is that there are probably many gay couples out there who can be better parents than many straight couples. james dobson would argue that, even if that is true, the gay couples should adopt their children, opposed to bringing new children into the world, because the gay couples nonetheless are not able to provide the ideal home.

i just agree with him because i think, whether for sociological or biological reasons, males and females do play different roles as parents. if the reason merely is sociological, then arguably we should make room for change.

am i making any sense?

tapestrybabe

07-04-2002, 10:59 PM

[quote:4aa4c477fa="kasia"]
well, james dobson basically feels that the ideal home should have both a mother and a father. he believes that a mothers and fathers play very distinct roles. i just agree with him because i think, whether for sociological or biological reasons, males and females do play different roles as parents. if the reason merely is sociological, then arguably we should make room for change.

am i making any sense?[/quote:4aa4c477fa]

while i never grew up having a gay couple raise me... i do have a mother that happens to be a lesbian. anyways, i kinda agree with this argument. cuz when my parents divorced.. my father is the one that raised us kids. And I think not having a mother there in the household... made a difference to me, especially during my teenage years. This is not to say my dad did a poor job, and that mother was totally neglectful... but i feel it just made a huge difference not having her there...

but anyways, while ppl say that having a mother and father is the ideal.. i feel that there are successful gay couples and single parents raising their kids. Example, my neice... she has been raised by a single mother and is a very bright, mature 14 year old, who has a lot ahead of her and has a lot of ambition. and i've known a few kids being raised by gay couples who have done well in life. So, they can make successful parents. And parents arent the only role model in a kids life.. but theres also their aunts, uncles, grandparents, school teachers, etc... Altho yeah, the parents themselves... i feel tend to make the strongest impact on a kid, and not having a mother living in the same household as me while growing up... i feel has been a real void...

anyways, while i feel gay couples are capable of raising a kid... its not something i ever personally promoted... like i dont promote single parenting either...

achtungbaby

07-05-2002, 12:04 AM

[quote:c7872a58db="Tapestrybabe"]

anyways, while i feel gay couples are capable of raising a kid... its not something i ever personally promoted... like i dont promote single parenting either...

[/quote:c7872a58db]

My own personal 2 cents: all that "it takes a village" crap -- try telling that to a kid who's had to grow up without a father or mother.

Arex

07-05-2002, 01:34 AM

[quote:0802ef7593="kasia"]well, james dobson basically feels that the ideal home should have both a mother and a father. he believes that a mothers and fathers play very distinct roles. i tend to agree, but at the same time, i don't want to offend any homosexual couples--also, my mind isn't completely made up on this issue. the flip side of the argument is that there are probably many gay couples out there who can be better parents than many straight couples. james dobson would argue that, even if that is true, the gay couples should adopt their children, opposed to bringing new children into the world, because the gay couples nonetheless are not able to provide the ideal home.

i just agree with him because i think, whether for sociological or biological reasons, males and females do play different roles as parents. if the reason merely is sociological, then arguably we should make room for change.

am i making any sense?[/quote:0802ef7593]

I'd have to agree with him. Yeah, in an ideal world, every child would grow up with a loving mother and father since they do play different roles (not to mention that that's biologically how it's supposed to work anyway). But like I said, I don't think there's any reason to assume that gay or lesbian couples can't be good parents as well, especially given that this isn't an ideal world and you've got plenty of fucked up two parent families anyhow.

Alex

kasia

07-05-2002, 09:43 AM

[quote:5fff5f4366="Arex"]
I'd have to agree with him. Yeah, in an ideal world, every child would grow up with a loving mother and father since they do play different roles (not to mention that that's biologically how it's supposed to work anyway). But like I said, I don't think there's any reason to assume that gay or lesbian couples can't be good parents as well, especially given that this isn't an ideal world and you've got plenty of fucked up two parent families anyhow.Alex[/quote:5fff5f4366]

right. he's saying they should adopt rather than find a surrogate mother. that's his main point.

question for you: how do you know it's biological?

Arex

07-05-2002, 02:22 PM

[quote:b39a0b6cdc="kasia"]
right. he's saying they should adopt rather than find a surrogate mother. that's his main point.[/quote:b39a0b6cdc]

Well, by that same logic, the same can be said for people seeking to raise children as single parents. If anything, I would argue that THAT situation may be "less ideal" than being raised by two homosexual parents. I agree though that given all of the children without parents, adoption would be the better solution as it would kill two birds with one stone, so to speak. On the other hand, I'm not sure that I'm persuaded by the argument that just because heterosexuals CAN reproduce, and that situation has the potential for being the "most ideal," that they should be any more entitled to actually procreate vs. adopt.

[quote:b39a0b6cdc="kasia"]question for you: how do you know it's biological?[/quote:b39a0b6cdc]

How do I know that having a mother and father is biologically how things are supposed to work? Well, before humans got all creative with reproduction, it always took both a man and a woman to bring a child into this world. Our closest cousins, the great apes, generally raise their offspring in a community but there's always both a mother and father figure. That's all I meant by there being a biological basis for having two gender parents. Like I said though, I still don't see that homosexual parents can't be every bit as good parents as heterosexuals, even if the situation is less than ideal.

Alex

tapestrybabe

07-06-2002, 10:16 PM

[quote:1d028e2670="Arex"]Like I said though, I still don't see that homosexual parents can't be every bit as good parents as heterosexuals, even if the situation is less than ideal.[/quote:1d028e2670]

i agree that homosexual couples have the capability to be good parents. but its not ideal, which is why i don't really promote it. And if they do decide to adopt, i feel gender issues should be taken into consideration... like a male couple should consider adopting a boy instead of a girl... me, i was a very young age when my mother taught my sister and myself about the basic of sex, stuff about our bodies...and the whole menstruation thing... and as a female, i'm VERY appreciative that my mother was there... when i went thru that female change. And i feel it would've been a different experience for me... if i only had my dad....

angelnympho

07-07-2002, 07:57 PM

^-- just because its not ideal, you won't promote it, though? I mean, just because something's not ideal doesn't mean it doesnt work, right?

tapestrybabe

07-07-2002, 08:09 PM

[quote:6652f3e96d="angelnympho"]^-- just because its not ideal, you won't promote it, though? I mean, just because something's not ideal doesn't mean it doesnt work, right?[/quote:6652f3e96d]

i believe there are cases where it does work. whether it be my sister raising her kid as a single mother... or the ppl i've known whove been raised with gay couples... and i guess you can take case by case of whats ideal... cuz in the case of my sister... i believe it was ideal for her to be a single mother instead of marrying the dead beat father.. but when i see it in the larger picture of things... i'm not gonna encourage singleparenthood, or gay couples wanting to raise children.. cuz i feel the ideal is a child being raised with both a loving mother and father... and from my own experience... i just feel that way... feeling the absence of my mother when she had left...