Giuliani on crime in NYC

[Yeahman]

Is it going to be a three-way NY race between Hillary, Giuliani, and Bloomberg? Hard to imagine Bloomberg running if Giuliani gets the GOP nod. Giuliani can just take credit for everything that's happened in NY and claim that Bloomberg just rode the wave. Besides, they're too ideologically similar.

[Faithless]

I can't think of anything positive that Giuliani can take credit for.

[Golden Monkey]

I can't think of anything positive that Giuliani can take credit for.

Yeah right. I guess 8 years leading NYC back form hell is nothing.

Being US Attorney busting up organized crime and Wall St criminals is nothing. :rolleyes:

Meanwhile Obama has done NOTHING. Edwards is a punk lawyer who sues rich corporations and Hillary married a guy who became a success.

[Faithless]

Not sure how you can say he lead NYC back from hell. If it wasn't for 9/11, Rudy G. would have been out the door as a loser. :rolleyes:

[Yeahman]

Not sure how you can say he lead NYC back from hell. If it wasn't for 9/11, Rudy G. would have been out the door as a loser. :rolleyes:
No he wouldn't have. 9/11 just gave him national exposure. He was elected as a "tough on crime" mayor and he delivered.

[haplesshobo]

in legislation, he's also wanted to implement better control over campaign funding.

His antagonism towards that has certainly hurt him. After hearing McCain bash them over the years, is it any surprise that a lot of potentially helpful allies who could have helped him with campaign fundraising haven't stepped up.

[haplesshobo]

I can't think of anything positive that Giuliani can take credit for.

Seriously, man, you need to stop drinking the kool-aid and start reading some more credible news sources. And, when I mean credible news sources, I'm not even talking about Wall Street Journal but sources like the NYTimes or LATimes or Washington Post. Even though he's his own worst enemy, he also deserves a lot for what he was able to accomplish. To say that you can't think of anything positive that Giuliani is either a lie or you must really be ignorant, and I don't know what's worse.

If it wasn't for 9/11, Rudy G. would have been out the door as a loser.

And, before 9/11, Guillani, a republican in a unapolgetically democratic city like NYC, was easily re-elected in 97 with a huge win over his democratic opponent. Around that time, he had something like a 70% approval rating.

Before Guillani, there was a sense that the city was too big and ungovernable for one man to govern effectively. After the diaster of Dinkins regime, Guillani comes in and helps leads NYC to a modern day renaissance. He ignored the conventional wisdom about crime, and you saw crime plummet in NYC. And, with crime dropping and the sense that the city had turned around, people started returning to the city instead of leaving the city.

[LaiSteve66]

Can anyone fill me in on how Rudy G. reduced crime in NYC?

[AgentTofu]

Bloomberg makes Rudy look like a walking buffoon. I'm not electing someone based on how many hobos they threw into prison, I'm electing them on their plans for the entire nation.

[yoMAMA]

when it rains it pours.

[yoMAMA]

Bloomberg makes Rudy look like a walking buffoon. I'm not electing someone based on how many hobos they threw into prison, I'm electing them on their plans for the entire nation.

bloomberg is awesome.

i'd love to see a obama-bloomberg ticket.

[Yeahman]

Can anyone fill me in on how Rudy G. reduced crime in NYC?
More cops.
Better allocation of police power (CompStat).
Zero-tolerance policy.
Went after the mob.
Renovated crime-prone areas including the subways and Times Square.

[Faithless]

Seriously, man, you need to stop drinking the kool-aid and start reading some more credible news sources. And, when I mean credible news sources, I'm not even talking about Wall Street Journal but sources like the NYTimes or LATimes or Washington Post. Even though he's his own worst enemy, he also deserves a lot for what he was able to accomplish. To say that you can't think of anything positive that Giuliani is either a lie or you must really be ignorant, and I don't know what's worse.

...
Giuliani benefited from the times. National economic up turns. National trends in crime down turns, including Hizhonor's my little name caller.

People even say that it was Cuomo that really helped Hizhonor's city.

I'm looking at NY Times articles that questioned Giuliani's ability to raise his city's bond rating. During good economic times, even.

His second term was filled with over spending. So much for a fiscal conservative.

He's been trying to tell republicans, "Hey remember me? I reduced crime saved 9/11" repeatedly, and what he's been getting is yawns.

You write so much. But say so little. :rolleyes:

[Yeahman]

Giuliani benefited from the times. National economic up turns. National trends in crime down turns, including Hizhonor's my little name caller.
Always claimed by critics. Thoroughly dismissed by all experts. NYC's crime rate decreased at a rate greater than the national average and for a much longer time.
Anyone who lives in NYC will tell you that law enforcement is visibly better.

People even say that it was Cuomo that really helped Hizhonor's city.
A Democrat. What a surprise. Can you explain the 8 year lag for Cuomo's policies to become effective?

His second term was filled with over spending. So much for a fiscal conservative.
What EXACTLY did he overspend on?
And by "overspending" you must mean spending more in absolute terms because spending was cut in relative terms.
What should he have done with the surplus instead of putting it in a "locked box" like Gore wanted to do?

He's been trying to tell republicans, "Hey remember me? I reduced crime saved 9/11" repeatedly, and what he's been getting is yawns.
#1 in the polls and the presumed GOP nominee is what you call yawning? Then the Dems must be sleeping whenever Obama is talking.

[haplesshobo]

I'm looking at NY Times articles that questioned Giuliani's ability to raise his city's bond rating. During good economic times, even.

That's funny. You use the NYTimes to slam Giuliani, even though every major NY paper, including the liberal NY Times, all supported and endorsed Giuliani over his democratic opponent in 97.

Giuliani benefited from the times. National economic up turns. National trends in crime down turns, including Hizhonor's my little name caller.

That's the excuse Dinkins used when the crime in NYC was getting out of control. Basically, Dinkins just shrugged his shoulders and threw up his hands in the air as to say 'what can I do?" People lost confidence in the mayor and in the city, and started leaving the city, draining the city of tax revenue. In the early 90s, there were major stories and headlines about the decline of NYC.

But, Gulani came in and he actually did tried to do something about the epidemic of crime. There were systematic changes in the attitude and organization of the NYPD. Crime in NYC decreased at a much greater rate than other cities that also had a strong economy where NYC became the safest big city in the US.

Even, when the economy dipped again, crime did not spike up again because of the changes earlier implemented.


His second term was filled with over spending. So much for a fiscal conservative.

:rolleyes: So, if he slashed spending and services, you wouldn't be using that against him. He could choose either A or B, and you'd use that choice to slam the guy.

[haplesshobo]

A Democrat. What a surprise.


That's what's so fricking ridiculous about this hatred towards Rudy because he's not a Democrat. In a lot of states, Rudy would be considered a Democrat. Pre 9/11, Rudy probably wouldn't have had a serious shot at the Rep. nomination because of his liberal policies. Its like this Pavlovian reaction towards candidates just because of their politicial affiliation, irregardless of their actual record or policies.

[Faithless]

The crime droppage didn't start with Rudy. It started with the end of Dinkins tenure. But no one should say that Dinkins played a part in that. Just like no one should say that Julie-anny did.

Check the DOJ stats on national crime stats. Drops all around. Especially major cities on the east coast. Problem is, of the major cities in the east coast, New York City fell behind others. :frown:

[haplesshobo]

The crime droppage didn't start with Rudy. It started with the end of Dinkins tenure. But no one should say that Dinkins played a part in that. Just like no one should say that Julie-anny did.

And, the economy was starting to turn around at the tail end of George H. Bush's term. Does that mean that Bush should be given credit for the economy instead of Clinton?


Check the DOJ stats on national crime stats. Drops all around. Especially major cities on the east coast. Problem is, of the major cities in the east coast, New York City fell behind others. :frown:

OMG, I'm snorting out soda from my nose here just reading this. I know you're pretty desperate to discredit Guilani but you might just want to review those stats again.

NYC's drop in crime rate has been steeper and longer than those other cities. Sure, crime was dropping nationally, and that certainly played a role in the drop in crime rate in NYC. So, you then take the drop in crime rate in other cities and you use that as a baseline to compare to NYC's. If there's no difference, then you know that NYC rode a national trend where crime dropped in other cities. But, NYC did signifigantly better than other cities so you know that there were other factors that were responsible.

Here's some stats for NYC's crime rate drop:

From 1990 to 2000, four of the seven major felonies—homicide, robbery, burglary, and auto theft—dropped over 70 percent. Crime fell across the country during this period, but in New York it plummeted at twice the national average. By 2000, New York’s crime profile looked more like that of a small suburb than a big city. NYC's homicide rate in 2000 was half that of the big-city average; its robbery rate, which started out 50 percent higher than that of other big cities in 1990, was 10 percent below the average.

Here's a statistical analysis of NYC's crime rate, which tries to answer what was behind the drop-off:

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_22.htm

[Faithless]

Hm. You found a stat where they say those major crimes had dropped in NYC.

I found some that said that those types of crimes actually increased or remained the same during the Hizzonor's reign. I think it was that NY Citizens Budget Commission.

I wonder if Rudy G. will even get a chance to blow hard on those stats during some one-on-one prez debate. He'd better be careful because his hot air self-promotion might actually backfire when his opponent starts to dig deeper.

Snorting soda is a cheap high. :frown:

[haplesshobo]

Dude, seriously, have you ever visited NYC pre-G vs. post-G? Do you have friends or relatives who lived in NYC through that period? Cause I really doubt anybody who has would be trying to argue your point.

Hm. You found a stat where they say those major crimes had dropped in NYC.

:rolleyes:

Yes, I had to search and search for some obscure, irrelevant statistic that showed crime decreased. (That was sarcasm, in case, you didn't understand that).

The really difficult part was choosing what to use since there's so much that shows crime decreased in NYC- statistics, studies, newspaper headlines, anectodes, etc...


I wonder if Rudy G. will even get a chance to blow hard on those stats during some one-on-one prez debate. He'd better be careful because his hot air self-promotion might actually backfire when his opponent starts to dig deeper. I found some that said that those types of crimes actually increased or remained the same during the Hizzonor's reign.

Wow, you've just uncovered a major conspiracy that reaches the highest levels!!! So, basically, there was a conspiracy by the NYTimes, major, mainstream media, citizens in NYC, etc.. to all lie about crime in NYC to outsiders by painting this wonderful picture of how crime had dropped when in fact it had spiked up! Oh, the inhumanity! Those bastards lied to us so that tourists would visit NYC more often instead of being scared off by crime:biggrin:


I think it was that NY Citizens Budget Commission.

Oh, wait, stop the presses. I just did a little digging, and read the report you're referring to.

You mean the NY Citizens Budget Commission report that stated that decline in crime rate in NYC was 47% vs. 16% for cities with populations over 250,000?

You mean the NY Citizens Budget Commission reported that 8 crime indexes such as murder, arson, etc.. had been halved?

You mean the NY Citizens Budget Commission that concluded that the drop was attributed to two main factors- economic and new police policies.

You mean the NY Citizens Budget Commission report that stated that socioeconomic reasons were insufficient to account for that 31% difference?

You mean the NY Citizens Budget Commission report that concluded the NYPD was succesful in fighting crime? That the decrease in crime had been rooted in new policies by the NYPD?

Oh, that NY Citizens Budget Commission report. :wink:

Out of all the deluge of stats that the report had about decreasing crime, you choose to point out that subway crime increased 4% in a six month period in 97 out of his eight years as mayor? And, even then, the crime rate was still dropping in the rest of the city.

If crime is beyond policing, then the NYPD should have just shrugged their shoulders at this uptick in subway crime, right? But, what made this new NYPD so effective that it didn't just look the other way. Instead, the NYPD brought in another 300 NYPD officers into the subway to actively confront this uptick in subway crime. And, did you see this uptick in subway crime continue?

If subway crime had increased under G., does that mean you would have rather ridden the subway alone late at night pre-G vs. post-G? :rolleyes:


Snorting soda is a cheap high. :frown:

Its cause I'm laughing too hard. Just for future reference, it might not be a good idea to cite sources that pretty much undermine your agrgument. You see, when you start citing statistics or studies, you might want to actually try to find some that back up your point.

[Faithless]

I gave you positive karma, so that you can give it to Rudeness Giuliani's campaign. He'll need it.

I feel for sorry you. You have a knack for backing political losers.

From what I've read, the CBC is a little more realistic with Hizzoner than you. You could learn some things from them. :rolleyes: They recognize that he had an accountability problem.

[power puff girl]

fuck rudy giuliani- the little dictator. because of him, nyc has been turned into some safe and sterile themepark for tourists. before, there was this amazing electricity and buzz in the air. you had to keep your eyes open, and going out was an adventure.

[epmd]

"guilani wants my mind soul and my body secret society trying to keep their eye on me"

hey i've been to pre g and post g new york city, it was a MAJOR difference. I remember goint to NY as a kid back in the 80's and I was Scared Shitless. it looked like total stinkhole and looked VERY dangerous. All of the US was like that. we were living in Toronto at the time and I remember thinking.. "man i want to get out of this 3rd world country, let's go back to Toronto"... I had no idea that NY and USA had more money than Canada.. it didn't look like it either. but I visited NY a few times post G and I was really impressed, a very lively city then and lots of energy, no fear of anything. people were very unfriendly as before though

[power puff girl]

let me guess...

the little dictator is wallowing in the tragedy of 9/11 again on this anniversary. what did he do on 9/11 again except he happened to be the wrong person at the right time and right spot.

[Yeahman]

let me guess...

the little dictator is wallowing in the tragedy of 9/11 again on this anniversary. what did he do on 9/11 again except he happened to be the wrong person at the right time and right spot.
Just gotta smile at the thought of what you would have said if Giuliani was a Democrat.

[AngryABCGirl]

Just gotta smile at the thought of what you would have said if Giuliani was a Democrat.

Ironically a lot of hard-line republicans consider Giuliani, and Arnold for that matter, far too left to be Republican. I really doubt they are going to give the nomination to a New Yorker whose had three wives. Just saying.

[kimpossible]

I remember goint to NY as a kid back in the 80's and I was Scared Shitless. it looked like total stinkhole and looked VERY dangerous.

It wasn't THAT bad. But the potholes were a real bitch. The major difference I saw after a trip back a few years ago is everything is more commercial than I remember but I could say that about most cities or towns I've lived in. Dunno about mass trans. Now that was a crock of shit back then. It might be better now.

[Yeahman]

1980's NYC and 2007 NYC are night and day. It's hard to exaggerate.

In 1990, NYC averaged 6.2 murders a day. Today NYC is averaging 1.3 murders a day. That's despite having almost a million more people today.

When I was younger "working on 42nd" meant prostitution. Everyone understood it. Today, people would most probably think you're talking about theater acting. The transformation is widely called the "Disneyfication of Times Square." It's really a remarkable complete transformation.

1985 Subway:
http://www.graffiti.org/nyctrains/blend.jpg

2007 Subway:
http://www.globalgraphica.com/main/archives/031605_nyc_subway_w498.jpg

[monkeygone2]

Just gotta smile at the thought of what you would have said if Giuliani was a Democrat.

don't know what ppg would've said...

but i bet some people would blame giuliani's failure to act, following the 1997 World Trade Center bombing, on his personal life.

http://coastalsomerville.net/images/giuliani_drag.jpg
http://amcop.blogspot.com/giuliani%20drag.jpg

i have no problem w/ people who are down w/ rudy.
but i think it's fucked up that he's running on a bogus homeland-security background.

[SunWuKong]

1980's NYC and 2007 NYC are night and day. It's hard to exaggerate.

In 1990, NYC averaged 6.2 murders a day. Today NYC is averaging 1.3 murders a day. That's despite having almost a million more people today.

i was telling a colleague that credit should be given to Giuliani for cleaning up NYC. but he argued that it had more to do with a national decline in drug-related crime than Giuliani's leadership. not sure how right he is.

[Yeahman]

i was telling a colleague that credit should be given to Giuliani for cleaning up NYC. but he argued that it had more to do with a national decline in drug-related crime than Giuliani's leadership. not sure how right he is.
That's a popular rebuttal that's easily defeated by the stats (NYC had a much steeper and longer decline than the national average) and by anyone who has lived in NYC pre and post Giuliani (The Giuliani difference is visible to the lay observer).

Hey, Giuliani is an ass and I will not vote for him but you'll never convince me that he didn't clean up the city.

[VV o n g B a]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect

[kimpossible]

1980's NYC and 2007 NYC are night and day. It's hard to exaggerate.


You're 26. Do you remember much of the '80s? Murder rates are also affected by advances in medicine. Violent crime tends to be a better measuring stick. I don't have many 'scary' memories of living there. Except the subway.

[applehead]

yeah. how do some of you remember what it was like
in the 80's?
i don't even remember what it was like in the early 90's.
i've never been to times square or on the subway
before guliani was in office.

i don't know what the hell you people are complaining
about. what's wrong with catering to tourists?
if you think graffiti and sexual vagrants make a city
vibrant. go hang out in the industrial parts of LIC.
there. happy?

[Yeahman]

OK I remember early 90's NYC. So I can extrapolate back to the 80's.

[snailpoo]

This answers the current question about crime rates dropping nationally (especially the last paragraph) and it silences the usual next argument about Bratton:


Crime dropped dramatically in NYC when you were there and when Giuliani was mayor. He’s taking credit for part of that. What portion of the credit does the mayor deserve?

It’s a big stage. You need a big stage because a lot of people need to get on that stage—including the 38,000 cops who actually did the work. I had an extraordinarily creative team of people who worked with me: the late Jack Maple; John Timoney, who is now the [police] chief in Miami; consultants like John Linder [who drew up the action plan for the cops] and [Rutgers University criminal-justice scholar] George Kelling of the Broken Windows theory.

It could not have been done without Giuliani. In New York City, one of the great strengths of [the mayor’s] position is you have ability to coordinate all elements of the criminal-justice system. Particularly with a mayor that was as strongly focused on this issue as he was, if you controlled the jails, influenced strongly the district attorneys and the judges, probation through your budget powers … [he had] the ability to coordinate a lot of what we were doing on the suppressive side of the house with the prisons and prosecutors, probation and parole.

His great strength was believing that you could do something about crime. It wasn’t necessarily that crime was caused by societal issues like poverty or racism or the economy. Those are influences, but [he believed that] crime is caused by individuals, by behavior. And that one thing government can do through its laws and in a democracy is empowered to do is to create public safety. Without that, you have what New York was in the 1990s, what America was in the late '80s and early '90s—an increasingly unsafe environment because government was failing in its obligation to maintain public safety. I believed you could do it by focusing on behavior—broken windows, quality-of-life behavior. Fix the little things: squeegee pests, aggressive beggars, prostitutes in the street, drug dealers on the corners. And then we dealt with the big things, the violent crime, the murders, rapes and robberies.

Police were sufficiently resourced, which we were, thanks to Giuliani’s predecessor, Dave Dinkins, who had hired 7,000 cops. The only thing I had was, I didn’t have a lot of money, but I certainly had a lot of ideas and a lot of cops.

Giuliani basically fought all the political fights against all the naysayers who said it couldn’t be done. So he provided the opportunity and the leadership and fought a lot of the political battles with what was at that time an extraordinarily liberal city.

Where we differed and came to differ after a couple of years was on some of the strategies, some of the applications. My perspective was that we had achieved enough success that we could now start refocusing the energies of the department. His belief was that we needed to keep pushing the enforcement side of the envelope. That was one of the reasons we ended up going our separate ways. Some of the expansion of the Street Crime Unit that got them into so much trouble about a year after I left [with the notorious police beating of Abner Louima in Brooklyn in 1997] ... We were opposed to that [expansion]. It was a difference in strategies that we had toward the end.

But he deserves significant credit. It could not have been done with the speed and the comprehensiveness and the ultimate impact without him. Could it have been done over time? Crime was going down 2 percent a year. It wasn’t going down 10 to 15 percent as we did in 1994 and 1995.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20423719/site/newsweek/page/0/

[SunWuKong]

my family actually made our landing in the country in NYC in 1987 and lived in Brooklyn. it was a pretty intimidating place for us because by all accounts, HK was a much safer city. but maybe it was because our extended family who had been in Brooklyn for years was pretty paranoid and passed the paranoia to us. a lot of the old immigrant or 老華僑 mentality is pretty paranoid. my immediately family was never victims of any crimes or violence during the time we lived there, but i think at least half of my relatives in NYC have been burglarised or robbed at one time or another. but this was all before about the mid 90s.

[deez nuts]

You're 26. Do you remember much of the '80s? Murder rates are also affected by advances in medicine. Violent crime tends to be a better measuring stick. I don't have many 'scary' memories of living there. Except the subway.

I do. It was fucking awesome. Times Square induced my puberty.

[power puff girl]

and, now, the little dictator has sunk even lower with another embarassing attempt to prop himself as some post 9/11 leader with his latest fundraising efforts- he's asking donors to donate $9.11.

he's pretty subtle, little thing. without that, i would have never known he was there on 9/11. ever notice how he always anwers any questions by bringing up 9/11, even if its totally unrelated.

reporter: mr. giulani, how can we better prepare our children's future when your policies will slash the money needed to support our children's future?

giulani: 9/11

reporter: mr. giulani, do you agree with the current's administration to acknowledge the scientific consensus about global warming?

giulani: 9/11